Baking Bread - a little help.

[Patler]

I've made bread dough for years, making specialty breads from a few basic dough recipes.

But, I always hated making the dough itself, and for various reasons now find it hard to knead dough like I did. So....I bought a Cuisinart stand mixer with dough hooks. Problem solved, right?

Hardly. My dough turns out like crap. About one in 5 batches is good, the rest lousy.

Any tricks to mixing bread dough in stand mixer?

[pbmax]

I have no knowledge of baking bread, but I wanted to test a theory out about questions like this so I googled "kneading dough in mixer" and ran into this link:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/483188

You may have already done the same/similar.

My theory is that all the promises of home appliances inevitably cause a household to change the way they do things in order to realize the benefit of the appliance. My family thinks I do far too much thinking about purchases like this and want too many questions answered before committing to a purchase. But my experience is that not only will I spend the money on the appliance, but I will inevitably not be able to do what I initially intended to do, will need to do it entirely differently or change the original goal. Drives me crazy.

So theory partially confirmed with a superficial glance at the posts on that thread. Need the correct recipe and bread dough (not all work in a stand mixer), need mixer specific instructions and not all cookbooks will distinguish between the two methods for you. You also apparently need to learn what "autolyse" is (rest period after rough mix of ingredients to let flour absorb liquid).

Good luck Patler!

[Patler]

Thanks, pbmax, I think! :lol:

Sounds like I need to start using different bread recipes/instructions until I find one that works, and then go from there. That is a bit frustrating, knowing the sayings about old dogs and all!

[MadtownPacker]

Just smoke a fat ass joint and I'm sure your bread will taste better.

[pbmax]

I am getting hungry. Here is another nice discussion and a book recommendation for mixer-ready receipes.

http://ths.gardenweb.com//forums/load/cooking/msg1105372414062.html?12

http://www.amazon.com/Bernard-Claytons-Complete-Book-Breads/dp/0743287096/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226071093&sr=1-1

[pbmax]

Just smoke a fat ass joint and I'm sure your bread will taste better.

Don't you want to mix the bud into the dough and then just eat it at once? Or does that just work with hash and brownies?

[Freak Out]

Kneading dough by hand is the only way to do it right. Sorry Snoop.

[SkinBasket]

Kneading dough by hand is the only way to do it right. Sorry Snoop.

Same with masturbation. So double sorry.

[Patler]

Same with masturbation. So double sorry.

I can't use a stand mixer for that either??

[red]

just go drop a whole 2 dollars for a loaf at the store you cheap bastard :)

[Joemailman]

I can't use a stand mixer for that either??

There's only one way to find out.

[3irty1]

Stand Mixers are the only way to go for kneading and probably also masturbation. They are much cleaner and much much faster with more consistent results. I'll assume that your recipe is fine although I'll add that you ought to be measuring your ingredients by weight rather than volume for consistency. When you say your dough is crap does that mean it doesn't rise? Your dough probably isn't under-kneaded because you are using the stand mixer but if it weren't, your yeast could be going off but the gluten structure of your dough could be underdeveloped and thus not catching the gases that the yeast are excreting. To know if your dough is developed pinch off a tiny piece and stretch it. You should be able to stretch it thin enough to see through. This is often called a "baker's window." Another common problem is that you could have a jar or box of yeast that sits for a month and dies. Buy a new jar of yeast and store it in the fridge it will last much longer in there. Lots of new bakers try to let their dough rise right in the stainless steel mixer bowl. This isn't the best choice as the bowl acts as a heat sink and really really cripple the rising of the yeast. Try a glass or plastic bowl instead and put a towel over the top of it to block the light. If you want you can turn your oven into a proofer by setting your bowl of dough in the oven with pan of hot water. This should provide a warm, dark, humid environment for yeast to do their thing. If nothing still works, perhaps your tap water is really chlorinated and is killing the yeast. Try bottled water, filtered water, or just let your tap water sit out overnight in an open container.

Happy baking.

[Patler]

Stand Mixers are the only way to go for kneading and probably also masturbation. They are much cleaner and much much faster with more consistent results. I'll assume that your recipe is fine although I'll add that you ought to be measuring your ingredients by weight rather than volume for consistency. When you say your dough is crap does that mean it doesn't rise? Your dough probably isn't under-kneaded because you are using the stand mixer but if it weren't, your yeast could be going off but the gluten structure of your dough could be underdeveloped and thus not catching the gases that the yeast are excreting. To know if your dough is developed pinch off a tiny piece and stretch it. You should be able to stretch it thin enough to see through. This is often called a "baker's window." Another common problem is that you could have a jar or box of yeast that sits for a month and dies. Buy a new jar of yeast and store it in the fridge it will last much longer in there. Lots of new bakers try to let their dough rise right in the stainless steel mixer bowl. This isn't the best choice as the bowl acts as a heat sink and really really cripple the rising of the yeast. Try a glass or plastic bowl instead and put a towel over the top of it to block the light. If you want you can turn your oven into a proofer by setting your bowl of dough in the oven with pan of hot water. This should provide a warm, dark, humid environment for yeast to do their thing. If nothing still works, perhaps your tap water is really chlorinated and is killing the yeast. Try bottled water, filtered water, or just let your tap water sit out overnight in an open container.

Happy baking.

Thanks, but my problem is only since using a stand mixer. I'm not a new bread baker, I have been baking bread for a long, long time (50 years). I know the yeast, water, rising issues, etc. My recipes have come from at least my grandmother who baked in a lumber camp in the late 1800s. Where she got them from, I don't know, perhaps someone from the camp. I'm certainly no bread expert, but for as long as I mixed and kneaded by hand it usually turned out fine. Same very basic recipes, using the same yeasts, same flour, same water (well water) that always produced good doughs for the last 20 years in this house (given the variances that arise for any home baker) now are wildly inconsistent since I started using a stand mixer a year ago last Christmas.

By the way, about 5 years ago we bought a convection oven that has a bread proofing cycle. What a great addition that was! I hoped that the mixer would simplify the dough making process, which I never particularly enjoyed anyway. But, so far I haven't seemed to find the knack for using the machine to get the dough I want.

I have varied the length of kneading and the speed at which I knead. I've never gotten a result I particularly cared for with it. Recently, I have tried different flours. I have also experimented with different yeasts. I usually buy bulk granulated yeast (yes, stored in the refrigerator), but started out baking bread many years ago only with cake yeasts.

In short, so long as I mix and knead by hand, no problem. Using the stand mixer with dough hooks was intended to make my life easier and I hoped to bake breads more often, because as I said, I really don't particularly like making dough. But it hasn't turned out to be the improvement that the oven was for rising the dough.

[3irty1]

Do you use a sponge or just a straight dough method of mix, knead, rise, bake? Exactly what are some of the symptoms of your bad dough? Both Bread flour and regular old AP flour will have more than enough protein to get a good rise. You can likely rule out the yeast as the problem as long as its not dead. Saf yeast like you are probably using has been bred for speed but I once kept a sourdough starter of purely wild yeast going for over a year. Yeast is yeast as long as its not dead.

You should be kneading on a medium speed for about 6 or 7 minutes I'd say... about the time it takes for the dough to climb up the hook. When finished the bowl should be totally clean and the dough should be able to be handled without it being too sticky.

[Patler]

I've always just used a straight dough method. I like to use bread flour because I make an apple streudel from bread dough that I pull thin, cover with butter, apples cinnamon and sugar, then roll and bake. Bread flour gives me a stronger dough to pull out the way I like it without tearing. I have used a lot of different flours over the years until someone got me onto King Arthur, which actually mixes their flours to consistent protein content, and I think the result are more consistent when I make it by hand.

Mostly I just don't like the texture of the dough from the mixer. When I make it by hand it tends to be fairly smooth. From the mixer it tends to have a fine "lumpiness" to it. I don't know how to explain it. It doesn't smooth out with more kneading. I have varied the speed and length of mixing time, added flour even more gradually then when I do it by hand, used less flour than normal, used more flour than normal, yet it still doesn't have as smooth of a texture as I am accustomed to.

I made two batches side by side, all the same ingredients. The one by hand turned out the way I expect, the one from the mixer not as nice.

Any ideas?

[3irty1]

Just keep mixing. That rough looking dough is undermixed. Wet or dough with a sheen on it is over mixed. Give it 12 minutes in the mixer on medium and see how smooth that is. With high protein dough you may have to stop the mixer and push the dough down if it climbs the hook too high.

[pbmax]

I think if you send me some streudel, I stand a good chance to identify the problem by taste. Just to be sure, send a large batch.

[Patler]

I think if you send me some streudel, I stand a good chance to identify the problem by taste. Just to be sure, send a large batch.

My wife was once a member of a young wives organization (this was a long, long time ago!) when we lived in a place that had an "Apple Festival" in the fall. Organizations set up booths and sold "apple things" to raise money. My wife had served my streudel at one of their meetings and the ladies decided to sell it by the slice at the festival that year. Our kitchen had two ovens, so about 15 ladies and I spent an entire day baking. I think we made about 20 of them. They sold out the next day in only a couple hours and they had to close their booth early. It was a two day festival, so that afternoon and evening we baked a few more for the following day.

Just me and a houseful of ladies baking. They soon forgot I was a man in their group, and I think I got to see the inner workings of an all female group. It was an interesting couple days! I overheard conversations between our kitchen, dining room and sun porch as the work went on that, except for the higher pitched voices and laughs, could have come from a bunch of guys sitting at a bar.

[Little Whiskey]

strudel or kringle?

[Patler]

strudel

[Iron Mike]

My wife was once a member of a young wives organization (this was a long, long time ago!) when we lived in a place that had an "Apple Festival" in the fall.

Small world. A long, long time ago, I would have been watching a parade at an "Apple Festival" in the fall, where my GF at the time was contesting for the "Apple Queen."

http://applefestusa.com/wp-content/gallery/2010-royalty/37470_1442333550990_1612645612_1033779_7479605_n[1].jpg

Her Mom was most likely home baking stuff with sourdough starter called "Herman."

[MichiganPackerFan]

While 31 as always describes methods SO well, I don't know how much I can add, so I'll just share what I do. I use a KitchenAid. Start with a sponge (at least in theory - half the time, i will add extra yeast in the beginning rather than allowing it to multiply properly). The first cup of flour is bread flower and whisked directly into the warmed water (ALWAYS FILTERED), honey, olive oil, butter (sometimes) salt and yeast. I'll either let that sit for half a day or add the aforementioned additional yeast. When I'm ready to go, I fold in the next flour (all purpose, plus a half to a cup of rye or wheat) with a rubber spatula until I know that when I turn the mixer on, I won't be covered in flour. After that I mix on low, but build quickly to medium just until I can stretch into the bakers windowpane. I have had a little trouble with having to much flour, but when all is said and done, the KitchenAid pulls it into a consistent, nicely kneaded mass which cleanly pulls from the bowl. A couple turns on the counter to shape it and then back into the bowl to rise for a couple of hours, then prepped for baking and allowed to rise a final time. Pizza crusts have been similar but with more liquid and half of the water being substituted out for pilsner.

[swede]

Small world. A long, long time ago, I would have been watching a parade at an "Apple Festival" in the fall, where my GF at the time was contesting for the "Apple Queen."

http://applefestusa.com/wp-content/gallery/2010-royalty/37470_1442333550990_1612645612_1033779_7479605_n[1].jpg

Her Mom was most likely home baking stuff with sourdough starter called "Herman."

LaCrescent is that little town in Minnesota hanging on to the limestone bluffs above the Mississippi, is it not?

As a boy I loved looking at that little farm deep in a valley between the two lanes of I 90 just beyond LaCrescent, wondering how they got in and out.

[Guiness]

LOL at your description of making a purchase, pbmax.

You wouldn't just happen to be an engineer, would you? It sounds like a very familiar process, and is pretty much guaranteed to drive my artsy girlfriend mad!

[Guiness]

Patler - interesting history behind your bread recipes. I'd like to be the first to ask you to pass some of them along! If you're, willing to, pm me and I'll give you an e-mail address.

I bake my own bread as well, and like to experiment with recipes, although I will admit that I do it primarily with a breadmaker.

One great addition to bread is some spent grain from brewing. If you know a homebrewer who does all-grain batches, a couple of tablespoons of his used grain adds a very nice malted flavour to a loaf of bread.

[pbmax]

LOL at your description of making a purchase, pbmax.

You wouldn't just happen to be an engineer, would you? It sounds like a very familiar process, and is pretty much guaranteed to drive my artsy girlfriend mad!

Not an engineer by degree or job description, but by temperament? Quite possibly.

My wife thinks its a symptom of indecision. I say its a bulwark against regret. :)

[Patler]

Patler - interesting history behind your bread recipes. I'd like to be the first to ask you to pass some of them along! If you're, willing to, pm me and I'll give you an e-mail address.

Sorry! I neglected to reply! No qualms about sharing:

Nothing special about the basic white bread dough recipe (yeast, water, milk sugar, shortening salt, egg, flour), which I then use for both apple streudel and cinnamon bread. I pull (not roll) the dough out, cover with butter (too much, but man is it good!), apple slices (I like MacIntosh), cinnamon and sugar; roll it up and bake. For cinnamon bread I divide the dough in thirds, pull each out, cover with a little butter, cinnamon and sugar; roll each separately, then braid the three rolls into a loaf. The original loaf recipe had a molasses and butter based glaze, but I have never used it much because everyone seemed to like the plain cinnamon bread. Or, instead of a braided loaf, I make one roll, slice it and make individual cinnamon rolls.

I have a bun recipe that my family really likes, which also came from my Grandmother:

1/2 C warm water + 2 packages dry yeast (this is converted from the original cake yeast amount, which I have lost)
1 1/4 C scalded milk (from the old days when we used whole, unpasteurized milk)
3/4 C sugar
1 tsp. salt
6 1/2 C flour
2 tsp. cinnamon
1/2 tsp. allspice
1/2 cup melted shortening
2 eggs

Combine, knead and raise like any dough. Form into buns and bake. I cross the top with a knife before baking.



N.B. - I haven't baked bread since my last frustrating session that prompted me to start this thread; but I have some ideas to try with my stand mixer, at least. I might try this weekend and report.

[Guiness]

Thanks Patler.

The yeast packets are 1/4oz? I buy the jars, so need to measure it.

Scalded milk is interesting, I've never used it for bread. Do you pay attention to the temperature you bring it to? I make my own yogurt, and scald the milk, it makes it come out thicker. I use a thermometer and bring it up to 180C. When I eyeballed it, I inevitably brought it to a boil and it foamed over.

[Patler]

Thanks Patler.

The yeast packets are 1/4oz? I buy the jars, so need to measure it.

Scalded milk is interesting, I've never used it for bread. Do you pay attention to the temperature you bring it to? I make my own yogurt, and scald the milk, it makes it come out thicker. I use a thermometer and bring it up to 180C. When I eyeballed it, I inevitably brought it to a boil and it foamed over.

Ya, the standard yeast packages. I don't use them either because I also use the bulk yeast in jars, 2+ tsp.

Honestly, I don't scald the milk anymore, just warm it a bit to take the chill off it. When we used whole, unpasteurized milk on the farm we scalded it always for bread recipes. The story I was told was that some bacteria in the milk could kill yeast, or at least slow the rise time. Scalding was by sight, when it steamed and just began to form a skin (which we removed). We tried to not let it come to a boil.

[Zool]

What difference, if any, would you use in making a pizza dough?

[Patler]

AUTOLYSE WAS THE ANSWER ! ! ! !

I made cinnamon rolls this morning, making the dough in my stand mixer. Nothing different from the last time I made dough (when the dough turned out lousy) EXCEPT, after getting the dough mixed, I let it sit for 20+ minutes. Then I kneaded with the stand mixer as per before. The dough turned out absolutely wonderful! Smooth, easy to work with.

At least for today, the rest period after mixing and before kneading in the machine made a huge difference.

I usually make breads more often that this, but have been traveling a lot on weekends to my kids the last 2 months. Besides, I had become frustrated, and really didn't look forward to making any. After today, fresh breads on weekends may become the norm again!

[MJZiggy]

My sweetie made waffles this morning and followed the same recipe as normal, but I'd run out of flour so he made them with bread flour. Best waffles I've ever had. Not even close. I'm tempted to not buy more regular flour except that his coffee cake is better with the regular flour than it is with the whole wheat flour. I wonder what happens when you make that with bread flour...

[Patler]

AUTOLYSE WAS THE ANSWER ! ! ! !

I made cinnamon rolls this morning, making the dough in my stand mixer. Nothing different from the last time I made dough (when the dough turned out lousy) EXCEPT, after getting the dough mixed, I let it sit for 20+ minutes. Then I kneaded with the stand mixer as per before. The dough turned out absolutely wonderful! Smooth, easy to work with.

At least for today, the rest period after mixing and before kneading in the machine made a huge difference.

Two for two! It worked even better today.
A period of rest after mixing and before kneading has made a huge difference for me and my recipes using a stand mixer!