ESPN's Power Rankings of Head Coaches

[Smidgeon]

McCarthy came in 4th after Belichick, Tomlin (despite, in my opinion, taking over a successful franchise, not being forced to rebuild independent of a strong team, and being outcoached in the Super Bowl), and Reid. Does this end the debate that M3 is a Top 5 coach? ;)

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/26190/thoughts-on-mike-tomlins-rapid-ascension

[MJZiggy]

If these are true power rankings, then Belichick should be third at best.

[Bretsky]

If these are true power rankings, then Belichick should be third at best.

hate aside, most will rate Hoody at the top

[MJZiggy]

hate aside, most will rate Hoody at the top

These are POWER rankings and his team didn't trend well at the end. Tomlin should be above him for that reason.

[Tarlam!]

I know Hoody's been on top for a long long time, but M3 is #1 for me. I would ask any of the 3 named ahead of him to go into a 6 game, must win, sudden death tournament having the player/quality at position on IR and WIN!

That was some performance. Based on "what have you done for me lately? It's M3.

[Patler]

I know Hoody's been on top for a long long time, but M3 is #1 for me. I would ask any of the 3 named ahead of him to go into a 6 game, must win, sudden death tournament having the player/quality at position on IR and WIN!

That was some performance. Based on "what have you done for me lately? It's M3.

For the same reason, Reid is too high. He has been consistently good, but what "great" performance has he had? He has had very good teams, but about a .500 playoff record. One SB appearance is a plus, but no SB wins.

Looking back at it, for the Packers under MM to continually improve and be playing their best at the very end of the season, while losing more and more players including in the SB itself, was really a masterful performance.

If someone had told me the Packers would play with Bush and Lee as the 2nd and 3rd CBs for over half the game against the Steelers, I would have expected 40 points from Big Ben. MM had the team believing in itself no matter who was lost.

[mraynrand]

That was an amazing job down the stretch by Stubby. The list is reasonable, if you're talking lifetime. Hoody is trending downwards since that Superbowl flush - so is Reid. I assume they're giving him credit for restoring and revitalizing Vick. I would chomp his ankle and rank him 10th.

[MJZiggy]

That was an amazing job down the stretch by Stubby. The list is reasonable, if you're talking lifetime. Hoody is trending downwards since that Superbowl flush - so is Reid. I assume they're giving him credit for restoring and revitalizing Vick. I would chomp his ankle and rank him 10th.

C'mon! Surely you can find something better to chomp on than the ankle!

[mraynrand]

C'mon! Surely you can find something better to chomp on than the ankle!

everything else tastes worse

[Guiness]

everything else tastes worse

Do you wrap up the whole ankle, or just nip the Achilles? I find when chasing from behind, it's easier to take them down with the Achilles alone.

[Pugger]

For the same reason, Reid is too high. He has been consistently good, but what "great" performance has he had? He has had very good teams, but about a .500 playoff record. One SB appearance is a plus, but no SB wins.

Looking back at it, for the Packers under MM to continually improve and be playing their best at the very end of the season, while losing more and more players including in the SB itself, was really a masterful performance.

If someone had told me the Packers would play with Bush and Lee as the 2nd and 3rd CBs for over half the game against the Steelers, I would have expected 40 points from Big Ben. MM had the team believing in itself no matter who was lost.

+1

[Pugger]

That was an amazing job down the stretch by Stubby. The list is reasonable, if you're talking lifetime. Hoody is trending downwards since that Superbowl flush - so is Reid. I assume they're giving him credit for restoring and revitalizing Vick. I would chomp his ankle and rank him 10th.

So this is the real question with these rankings. Are we ranking them for their entire body of work or just for the 2010 season? If it was for the 2010 season then these rankings cannot be taken seriously.

[Fritz]

MM will be a top five head coach until the team's first loss next year.

[Tarlam!]

So this is the real question with these rankings.

My understanding of "power" rankings is that it's an ongoing comparison of a current situation. Like power rankings by NFL Team, Conference or Division.Those are redone every week and based on the most recent week's result and activity. That's why I have a tough time not ranking M3 #1, and as Patler points out, Ried ahead of M3 at all.

[Guiness]

The shine really should be off Hoody after his latest playoff loss to the Jets.

He made some mistakes during the season with respect to player personnel - the loss of Moss did hurt the team, and he looked sorely out game planned during the loss. The Jets had a solution, and he couldn't seem to work around it. They did not lose to an overpowering favorite, quite the opposite they were heavily favored and got outplayed.

[mmmdk]

Was there ever any doubt? :wink:

[Brandon494]

Shit is overrated, having a great QB will make any coach look good.

[Brandon494]

For the same reason, Reid is too high. He has been consistently good, but what "great" performance has he had? He has had very good teams, but about a .500 playoff record. One SB appearance is a plus, but no SB wins.

Looking back at it, for the Packers under MM to continually improve and be playing their best at the very end of the season, while losing more and more players including in the SB itself, was really a masterful performance.

If someone had told me the Packers would play with Bush and Lee as the 2nd and 3rd CBs for over half the game against the Steelers, I would have expected 40 points from Big Ben. MM had the team believing in itself no matter who was lost.

Wasn't aware MM coached defense. Let's be real MM is a good coach but having a QB like Rodgers and Capers running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

[Smeefers]

Wasn't aware MM coached defense. Let's be real MM is a good coach but having a QB like Rodgers and Capers running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

With Flynn in the wings? C'mon man! Easy answer. :tup:

[prime311]

Last year was a known rebuilding year for the Pats. Despite being favored and losing to the Jets, they overarchieved like crazy last season and have like a million early draft picks this year to continue loading. I would rank last year as a positive for hoody and the Pats considering they retooled their entire defense. Expectations will be higher this year, but you can't blame their young inexperienced defense for folding in a tough playoff match last year.

[Zool]

How many foot-pounds of torque does Belicheck put out compared to any of the other coaches on the list? That will give us a true ranking.

[get louder at lambeau]

How many foot-pounds of torque does Belicheck put out compared to any of the other coaches on the list? That will give us a true ranking.

Not sure about foot-pounds, but Rex Ryan has a foot fetish and weighs about 400 pounds. That's hard to beat.

[Smidgeon]

Here's one reporters opinion. Just another thought, and one with which I--for the most part--agree.

Vic, regarding Coach McCarthy being a play-caller that is “scary,” is that scary good or scary bad?

Vic: If you’re a Packers fan, it’s scary good. Coach McCarthy has a special aptitude for offense and, make no mistake about it, today’s game is about offense. We are in the midst of a revolution in the game like I have never seen. Yeah, we experienced a similar movement in the early-1980s, right after the rules changes of 1978 opened up the field and gave birth to the “West Coast offense” and “Air Coryell” movements, but defense soon found a way to deal with those strategies and balance was restored to the game. I don’t think that’s going to happen this time. I think we’re in an offensive explosion that is going to continue. I think we’re heading for Arena League-type scores. The days of batter-ball are over. Football is all about offense now. It’s about play count and scheme and play-calling. It’ll always be players first and plays second because plays can’t work if they’re not executed by players, but it’s plain to see that today’s game promotes and rewards the execution of a high-tech strategy more than it does the execution of a baseline strategy, and that’s why you need a head coach who either is the creator of a high-tech strategy and approach or demands it from his offensive staff. The Packers have that guy.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Here's one reporters opinion. Just another thought, and one with which I--for the most part--agree.

Vic, regarding Coach McCarthy being a play-caller that is “scary,” is that scary good or scary bad?

Vic: If you’re a Packers fan, it’s scary good. Coach McCarthy has a special aptitude for offense and, make no mistake about it, today’s game is about offense. We are in the midst of a revolution in the game like I have never seen. Yeah, we experienced a similar movement in the early-1980s, right after the rules changes of 1978 opened up the field and gave birth to the “West Coast offense” and “Air Coryell” movements, but defense soon found a way to deal with those strategies and balance was restored to the game. I don’t think that’s going to happen this time. I think we’re in an offensive explosion that is going to continue. I think we’re heading for Arena League-type scores. The days of batter-ball are over. Football is all about offense now. It’s about play count and scheme and play-calling. It’ll always be players first and plays second because plays can’t work if they’re not executed by players, but it’s plain to see that today’s game promotes and rewards the execution of a high-tech strategy more than it does the execution of a baseline strategy, and that’s why you need a head coach who either is the creator of a high-tech strategy and approach or demands it from his offensive staff. The Packers have that guy.
Good point. MM created the offense that is enabling Rodgers to be so successful.

[Fritz]

Wasn't aware MM coached defense. Let's be real MM is a good coach but having a QB like Rodgers and Capers running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

Well, isn't a head coach responsible for hiring assistants? After all the shit we gave MM about Slocum and Campen, why shouldn't he get credit for hiring Capers? Secondly, didn't many teams shy away from Rodgers in the draft (24 of them did) in part because they didn't like Rodgers's release point and that he was a "Tedford QB"? So didn't MM coach him up?

By your rational, Mike Tomlin deserves no credit, and if fact, it's hard to say whether by your reasoning any of the head coaches on that list should get any credit at all.

[vince]

Well, isn't a head coach responsible for hiring assistants? After all the shit we gave MM about Slocum and Campen, why shouldn't he get credit for hiring Capers? Secondly, didn't many teams shy away from Rodgers in the draft (24 of them did) in part because they didn't like Rodgers's release point and that he was a "Tedford QB"? So didn't MM coach him up?

By your rational, Mike Tomlin deserves no credit, and if fact, it's hard to say whether by your reasoning any of the head coaches on that list should get any credit at all.
Well said. You and Vic nailed it, although I think Vic maybe went a bit too far. You have to be able to stop passing attacks too to win.

[get louder at lambeau]

Well, isn't a head coach responsible for hiring assistants? After all the shit we gave MM about Slocum and Campen, why shouldn't he get credit for hiring Capers? Secondly, didn't many teams shy away from Rodgers in the draft (24 of them did) in part because they didn't like Rodgers's release point and that he was a "Tedford QB"? So didn't MM coach him up?

By your rational, Mike Tomlin deserves no credit, and if fact, it's hard to say whether by your reasoning any of the head coaches on that list should get any credit at all.

McCarthy lead his team to the NFC Championship in 2007, but that was all Faver. Super Bowl win in 2010, but that's all Rodgers and Capers. Funny how it keeps being everyone but him.

[sharpe1027]

Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

That question did make me stop and think. Is it possible to be a top 5 head coach, but only be the third or fourth most important individual on the team? Maybe.

[get louder at lambeau]

That question did make me stop and think. Is it possible to be a top 5 head coach, but only be the third or fourth most important individual on the team? Maybe.

Capers is the clear choice to me. Defenive Coordinator is the least important position listed, and if our defense keeps it up, he'll be gone soon anyway. He wasn't thought of as a super genius this time last year, after Warner and the Cards destroyed his defense for 45 points in regulation while Capers looked like he was asleep in the skybox.

[Brandon494]

Well, isn't a head coach responsible for hiring assistants? After all the shit we gave MM about Slocum and Campen, why shouldn't he get credit for hiring Capers? Secondly, didn't many teams shy away from Rodgers in the draft (24 of them did) in part because they didn't like Rodgers's release point and that he was a "Tedford QB"? So didn't MM coach him up?

By your rational, Mike Tomlin deserves no credit, and if fact, it's hard to say whether by your reasoning any of the head coaches on that list should get any credit at all.

Really? Did I say the guy sucked as a HC? I just don't think he's top 5. How many times last year did we question his clock management skills or play calling on short yardage plays. Also being a HC is more than about play calling. Don't know why you mentioned Tomlin but dude has been in the SB two out of his 4 years at HC and he's the youngest SB winning coach in NFL history. Would take him in a heart beat over MM. Why? Because he has that IT factor you look for in a coach. MM is top 10 IMO which last time I checked aint half bad.

[get louder at lambeau]

Really? Did I say the guy sucked as a HC? I just don't think he's top 5. How many times last year did we question his clock management skills or play calling on short yardage plays. Also being a HC is more than about play calling. Don't know why you mentioned Tomlin but dude has been in the SB two out of his 4 years at HC and he's the youngest SB winning coach in NFL history. Would take him in a heart beat over MM. Why? Because he has that IT factor you look for in a coach. MM is top 10 IMO which last time I checked aint half bad.

So wait, in your mind McCarthy's success is all due to TT, Rodgers, and Capers, but Tomlin's somehow ISN'T due to Kevin Colbert, Roethlisberger, and LeBeau? It's due to his "IT factor" instead? Huh. You know the Steelers were pretty good before Tomlin took over too, right?

[RashanGary]

Brandon, you seem a little nit picky, bro. MM's strengths are so strong that the weaknesses he does have rightfully get overlooked.

[channtheman]

Here's one reporters opinion. Just another thought, and one with which I--for the most part--agree.

Vic, regarding Coach McCarthy being a play-caller that is “scary,” is that scary good or scary bad?

Vic: If you’re a Packers fan, it’s scary good. Coach McCarthy has a special aptitude for offense and, make no mistake about it, today’s game is about offense. We are in the midst of a revolution in the game like I have never seen. Yeah, we experienced a similar movement in the early-1980s, right after the rules changes of 1978 opened up the field and gave birth to the “West Coast offense” and “Air Coryell” movements, but defense soon found a way to deal with those strategies and balance was restored to the game. I don’t think that’s going to happen this time. I think we’re in an offensive explosion that is going to continue. I think we’re heading for Arena League-type scores. The days of batter-ball are over. Football is all about offense now. It’s about play count and scheme and play-calling. It’ll always be players first and plays second because plays can’t work if they’re not executed by players, but it’s plain to see that today’s game promotes and rewards the execution of a high-tech strategy more than it does the execution of a baseline strategy, and that’s why you need a head coach who either is the creator of a high-tech strategy and approach or demands it from his offensive staff. The Packers have that guy.

I was under the impression that the offense really took off when MM scaled the offense BACK. As in he simplified it more rather than making it more complex. Seems to say the exact opposite of what this guy said. Execution of a simple offense is more than enough to score lots of points.

[Guiness]

Not sure about foot-pounds, but Rex Ryan has a foot fetish and weighs about 400 pounds. That's hard to beat.

:worship:

that was sweet.

[mraynrand]

Here's one reporters opinion. Just another thought, and one with which I--for the most part--agree.

Vic, regarding Coach McCarthy being a play-caller that is “scary,” is that scary good or scary bad?

Vic: If you’re a Packers fan, it’s scary good. Coach McCarthy has a special aptitude for offense and, make no mistake about it, today’s game is about offense. We are in the midst of a revolution in the game like I have never seen. Yeah, we experienced a similar movement in the early-1980s, right after the rules changes of 1978 opened up the field and gave birth to the “West Coast offense” and “Air Coryell” movements, but defense soon found a way to deal with those strategies and balance was restored to the game. I don’t think that’s going to happen this time. I think we’re in an offensive explosion that is going to continue. I think we’re heading for Arena League-type scores. The days of batter-ball are over. Football is all about offense now. It’s about play count and scheme and play-calling. It’ll always be players first and plays second because plays can’t work if they’re not executed by players, but it’s plain to see that today’s game promotes and rewards the execution of a high-tech strategy more than it does the execution of a baseline strategy, and that’s why you need a head coach who either is the creator of a high-tech strategy and approach or demands it from his offensive staff. The Packers have that guy.


I don't think the NFL is headed to arena-like scores. You have to have too many skilled positions filled to do it, and your QB has to be exceptional. There are only about 5-10 max QBs who can do this in the modern NFL, and many of them don't have enough weapons surrounding them, including O-line. Plus, defenses are pretty sophisticated and confusing. Arena scores will require a rules change(s) to favor the offense and more domes.

[Brandon494]

So wait, in your mind McCarthy's success is all due to TT, Rodgers, and Capers, but Tomlin's somehow ISN'T due to Kevin Colbert, Roethlisberger, and LeBeau? It's due to his "IT factor" instead? Huh. You know the Steelers were pretty good before Tomlin took over too, right?

Oh were the Steelers before Tomlin? Thanks for flilling me in on that. Why dont you go back and read what I wrote because I never said McCarthy doesnt deserve any credit and I never said Colbert, Roethlisberger, and LeBeau did not help Tomlin as well. Maybe I just like Tomlin better as a HC because HE IS THE BETTER HEAD COACH!

[Brandon494]

Brandon, you seem a little nit picky, bro. MM's strengths are so strong that the weaknesses he does have rightfully get overlooked.

Hes not top 5 in the league bro

[Bretsky]

These are POWER rankings and his team didn't trend well at the end. Tomlin should be above him for that reason.


That's nuts; look at the roster Hoody was coaching last year; the team has a huge makeover in the past three years going very young. Ditched Moss. Welker back from a torn ACL was not as effecitive. Not a bunch of talent at RB. Very young on defense. Many can't even name the Pats two starting WR's. We witnessed two TE's develop like we wish Quarless would have developed. Plenty of teams had more talent than the Pats in the AFC. They had Hoody and Brady.

Last year might have been Hoody's best job in the regular season doing what he did with that talent....since the undefeated year. Hard to discount any coach who can go undefeated in a season

[Bretsky]

These are POWER rankings and his team didn't trend well at the end. Tomlin should be above him for that reason.


I don't think you were one of them, but I got railed on for naming Tomlin in mid season as a coach I'd rate over MM. Posters noted how he inherited a great assistant coaching staff that makes him look better then he is. For what it's worth I didn't buy into it

[Bretsky]

For the same reason, Reid is too high. He has been consistently good, but what "great" performance has he had? He has had very good teams, but about a .500 playoff record. One SB appearance is a plus, but no SB wins.

Looking back at it, for the Packers under MM to continually improve and be playing their best at the very end of the season, while losing more and more players including in the SB itself, was really a masterful performance.

If someone had told me the Packers would play with Bush and Lee as the 2nd and 3rd CBs for over half the game against the Steelers, I would have expected 40 points from Big Ben. MM had the team believing in itself no matter who was lost.


Reid seemed to own Mike Sherman; that is his great accomplishment :)

[Bretsky]

Last year was a known rebuilding year for the Pats. Despite being favored and losing to the Jets, they overarchieved like crazy last season and have like a million early draft picks this year to continue loading. I would rank last year as a positive for hoody and the Pats considering they retooled their entire defense. Expectations will be higher this year, but you can't blame their young inexperienced defense for folding in a tough playoff match last year.


WINNER and FIVE CLAP POST

[mraynrand]

Because he has that IT factor you look for in a coach.

The lure of the dark side is strong. Resist it young Luke Partialwalker.

[Freak Out]

:)

[Patler]

Wasn't aware MM coached defense. Let's be real MM is a good coach but having a QB like Rodgers and Capers running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

And who made Rodgers into the QB he is? Most seem to acknowledge that the change in Rodgers from the player drafted to the player now performing on the field is pretty significant.

Who is the person primarily responsible for the attitude in the locker room, the "next man up" attitude for dealing with injuries, etc.

Who is primarily responsible for the design of the offense? Who called the plays?

Who hired Capers?

By your analysis, no HC deserves credit, because they all have assistant coaches and they all turn over one side of the ball to a coordinator while they (the HC) applies their expertise to just one area. It is a "criticism" that could be applied to every HC in the league.

[Patler]

Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

Very easy answer, Capers; because there are good, long-experienced coordinators available all the time, and they can be obtained by offering them the right contract. I really like Capers, but two years ago there were a number of proven D coordinators available. A few others could probably have done just as well. Good ones become available because they fail as HCs, the HCs they work for fail, or the GM who provides their players fails. It's not uncommon to have one or more very experienced, very successful coordinators looking for jobs in the off season.

Franchise QBs are in limited supply and aren't as available in the open market as coaches. They aren't on the streets looking for jobs like coordinators are. They are hard to replace. The usual source is the draft, with its high percentage of failures and development period that takes at least about 3 years.

GMs and HCs fall into the same boats. It is less common to find good ones on the street looking for jobs. Young guys primed to move up are always available, but you never know for sure if they will have what it takes, it takes a while for them to gain experience and it takes a number of years for them to transform a team into what they want.

How often are franchise QBs (still playing like one) available in the open market?
How often are proven, successful GMs available in the open market?
How often are proven successful HCs available in the open market?
How often are proven successful coordinators available in the open market?

I think it is pretty obvious which is the easiest to replace, if you have to pick one.

[Brandon494]

And who made Rodgers into the QB he is? Most seem to acknowledge that the change in Rodgers from the player drafted to the player now performing on the field is pretty significant.

Who is the person primarily responsible for the attitude in the locker room, the "next man up" attitude for dealing with injuries, etc.

Who is primarily responsible for the design of the offense? Who called the plays?

Who hired Capers?

By your analysis, no HC deserves credit, because they all have assistant coaches and they all turn over one side of the ball to a coordinator while they (the HC) applies their expertise to just one area. It is a "criticism" that could be applied to every HC in the league.

How are you guys getting that I said MM deserves no credit? I'm saying the guy isn't a top 5 HC IMO. Yes MM has helped ARod improve but I can guarantee he would still be a star in the league today even if he did not have MM as a head coach.

[get louder at lambeau]

Oh were the Steelers before Tomlin? Thanks for flilling me in on that. Why dont you go back and read what I wrote because I never said McCarthy doesnt deserve any credit and I never said Colbert, Roethlisberger, and LeBeau did not help Tomlin as well. Maybe I just like Tomlin better as a HC because HE IS THE BETTER HEAD COACH!

This is what you said-


Wasn't aware MM coached defense. Let's be real MM is a good coach but having a QB like Rodgers and Capers running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be ARod, TT, MM, or Capers? I think you already know what my answer is.

What I'm saying is that both coaches' situations are eerily similar, with that top 5 GM, QB, and DC, and that you can just replace names in your post and it works perfectly well for Tomlin too-


Wasn't aware Tomlin coached defense. Let's be real Tomlin is a good coach but having a QB like Roethlisberger and LeBeau running the defense how well of a job did he really do? Top 5 HC? Don't think so. He just has a top 5 GM, QB, and Defensive Coordinator to make him look better than he actually is? Ask yourself this question, if you had to get rid of one guy would it be Roethlisberger, Kevin Colbert, Mike Tomlin, or Lebeau? I think you already know what my answer is.

And then you have the fact that Tomlin took over a team that was one season removed from being Super Bowl Champions under the previous HC. McCarthy took over a team that just went 4-12 and hadn't won much of anything in almost ten years.

And this is just golden. Such rock solid logic!-

Maybe I just like Tomlin better as a HC because HE IS THE BETTER HEAD COACH!

That's almost as good as "the IT factor". :)

[Brandon494]

Very easy answer, Capers; because there are good, long-experienced coordinators available all the time, and they can be obtained by offering them the right contract. I really like Capers, but two years ago there were a number of proven D coordinators available. A few others could probably have done just as well. Good ones become available because they fail as HCs, the HCs they work for fail, or the GM who provides their players fails. It's not uncommon to have one or more very experienced, very successful coordinators looking for jobs in the off season.

Franchise QBs are in limited supply and aren't as available in the open market as coaches. They aren't on the streets looking for jobs like coordinators are. They are hard to replace. The usual source is the draft, with its high percentage of failures and development period that takes at least about 3 years.

GMs and HCs fall into the same boats. It is less common to find good ones on the street looking for jobs. Young guys primed to move up are always available, but you never know for sure if they will have what it takes, it takes a while for them to gain experience and it takes a number of years for them to transform a team into what they want.

How often are franchise QBs (still playing like one) available in the open market?
How often are proven, successful GMs available in the open market?
How often are proven successful HCs available in the open market?
How often are proven successful coordinators available in the open market?

I think it is pretty obvious which is the easiest to replace, if you have to pick one.

I disagree, I believe when Capers is more important to this team succeeding then MM. With AR at QB this team is going to put up point regardless. This team has been a top 5 defense since Capers arrived and should have produced two defensive players of the year since installing his 3-4 scheme. Also with all the injuries we had on defense and for them to still perform at that high of a level shows you how good of a defensive mind Capers really is. Bottom line is we are lucky to have all four guys in GB . :)

[Patler]

How are you guys getting that I said MM deserves no credit? I'm saying the guy isn't a top 5 HC IMO. Yes MM has helped ARod improve but I can guarantee he would still be a star in the league today even if he did not have MM as a head coach.

You can guarantee it? Based on what?

We can both play this game. I could make the self-serving statement of guaranteeing that Rodgers would not be a star in the league, but for the tutelage of MM.

Both of our guarantees are meaningless.

[Patler]

Bottom line is we are lucky to have all four guys in GB . :)

We can sure agree on that!! :glug: :five:

[Patler]

I disagree, I believe when Capers is more important to this team succeeding then MM. With AR at QB this team is going to put up point regardless. This team has been a top 5 defense since Capers arrived and should have produced two defensive players of the year since installing his 3-4 scheme. Also with all the injuries we had on defense and for them to still perform at that high of a level shows you how good of a defensive mind Capers really is. Bottom line is we are lucky to have all four guys in GB . :)

But can't it also be argued that with the likes of Raji, Matthews, Williams, Woodson, Shields and Collins the defense would be solid, regardless? If MM is less important because of Rodgers, isn't Capers less important because of the talent on defense?

Isn't it really opposite sides of the same coin?

[sharpe1027]

So wait, in your mind McCarthy's success is all due to TT, Rodgers, and Capers, but Tomlin's somehow ISN'T due to Kevin Colbert, Roethlisberger, and LeBeau? It's due to his "IT factor" instead? Huh. You know the Steelers were pretty good before Tomlin took over too, right?

That's a bit of an overstatement. He is saying MM is top ten, so clearly he's not saying that.

[Pugger]

I disagree, I believe when Capers is more important to this team succeeding then MM. With AR at QB this team is going to put up point regardless. This team has been a top 5 defense since Capers arrived and should have produced two defensive players of the year since installing his 3-4 scheme. Also with all the injuries we had on defense and for them to still perform at that high of a level shows you how good of a defensive mind Capers really is. Bottom line is we are lucky to have all four guys in GB . :)

To me MM is a top 5 HC. As others have said, he kept this team with all of its injuries together and won the SB - all on the road no less.

[Bretsky]

Before the playoffs I'd have put MM in the 8-12 range. I think we debated this and I got railed on when I listed some over MM

I'd have to agree that I'd put him in the top 5 right now but I don't blame anybody who argues top ten. They are still giving him kudos.

[Gunakor]

I think MM definitely cracks the top 5 now. His weaknesses are still glaring IMO - short yardage playcalling and clock management, for example. But looking big picture, what he accomplished last season is incredibly rare, maybe unprecedented.

Ryan Grant was lost a mere 8 carries into our campaign last season. With nobody proven or capable behind him, that would have been the death blow for most teams' hopes of even reaching the postseason, much less bringing home the hardware. Though we all had something to say about that, MM's approach effectively minimized that loss. Even with the rest of the supporting cast - Finley included - I doubt Andy Reid or Mike Tomlin could have done as well under the same circumstances.

Then we lost Finley. More improvization was needed, since again there was nobody proven or capable behind Finley to fill the role he had been given. Not quite as big a blow as losing your only proven RB in the first half of the first game of the season, but a huge blow nonetheless. You've now lost your only weapon in the ground game and your biggest weapon in your passing game. Most of what you emphasised schematically during the summer is moved to the back of the playbook because you no longer have the personnel to execute it.

The problem then is twofold. One, you have to improvise a new scheme that will yield results given the healthy personnel left on the roster, and two, you have to get those players to believe in that. McCarthy scores extremely high in both cases. The results will be immortalized in the Packer Hall of Fame - a team photo so saturated with IR'ed players you'd need a telescope to view in it's entirety, with a caption below it that reads "Super Bowl XLV Champions." That alone puts MM in a class above the vast majority of other HC's out there today. Top 5 is extremely fair.

[Brandon494]

Might want to go and check the losses Reid and Tomlin had to deal with this season as well. Shit if not for the Eagles making that huge comeback against the Giant most of you would be calling for MM's head. Now since ARod had a great playoff run it somehow moves him above coaches who have more wins and SB appearances? Sorry I give him credit but so don't see him as top 5 yet.

[Tarlam!]

moves him above coaches who have more wins and SB appearances?

In the power rankings, yes. It's not the life's body of work that is being ranked.

[Scott Campbell]

This is a subjective beauty contest. McCarthy took an injury depleted roster and reeled of 6 straight elimination game wins. It was one of the most improbable and impressive runs I've ever seen.

[RashanGary]

Brandon, I think you underestimate a few things with McCarthy.

1. His playcalling. We won the SB this year with an upper tier offense when for most of the year we literally had no RB. Where was TT on that one? He's consistently willing to think outside the box (throw on 3rd and 1, go for it on 4th and 1 when momentum dictates, onside kicks coming out of halftime, etc) Early in his career he was more conservative, but the last year or two he's been opening up the gates and going all out.

2. His ability to get a lot of different personalities on the same page. A part of being great is having great players. Great players have the biggest egos. Phil Jackson is legendary for his ability to get 2 or 3 or 4 alphas to all get along and pull in the same direction. McCarthy does that in football. He's a natural, strong leader. From a distance, Tomlin seems to be that as well, but Tomlin doesn't call an offense or defense. All he really does is lead and be a part-time contributor to Lebeau's defense.


From where I sit, these are two amazing strengths of McCarthy's. And he just spanked Tomlin's ass in the SB. Tomlin has been to a SB and won another, so fine, put him higher based on just accomplishments, but in 1982 anyone who said Joe Montana was a better QB than Fran Tarkington would have been called in idiot. Maybe they had more knowledge of football and they were right. The way Montana was playing this person believed he was the best QB he had ever seen play. 15 years later, Montana goes down as one of, if not the greatest player of all time. Who was right in 1982? Was Tarkington better because at that time he had accomplished more or was Montana better because even though he was just starting his career, he was just flat out better than everyone else?

Just because something isn't proven doesn't mean it isn't so. McCarthy is just starting his coaching career. Who knows how much he's going to accomplish. Based on accomplishment alone, he could fall anywhere between 3 and 10 depending on where you put emphasis on accomplishment. If you use a broader, more big picture way of looking at strengths and weaknesses, if you're very knowledgable about football, the right expert could argue MM falls anywhere from best in the buisness to worst. Going off evidence and what I see as strengths, I think they have him pegged about right, but when it's all said and done, I think he could be legendary too.

[Tarlam!]

How many SB's has Reid won?

[get louder at lambeau]

Might want to go and check the losses Reid and Tomlin had to deal with this season as well.

Why don't you show us, instead of just saying that?

We all know about the losses McCarthy had to deal with- an NFL high 15 guys on Injured Reserve including 6 starters and both the focal guy in our running game and the main target in our passing game, Matthews and Jenkins missed time and were gimpy, Rodgers missed time, Driver, Woodson, and Shields went down in the Super Bowl, 13 of 22 opening day starters missed a total of 86 combined games...

Now fill us in on how Reid and Tomlin's personnel losses stack up in comparison. If you count both teams together, do they add up to as many player losses as the Packers had?

[Gunakor]

Might want to go and check the losses Reid and Tomlin had to deal with this season as well.


Reid and Tomlin didn't win the Super Bowl after the the losses they dealt with this season. Both were handed their final defeat at the hands of the injury plagued crew McCarthy was leading.


Now since ARod had a great playoff run it somehow moves him above coaches who have more wins and SB appearances?

Well, in the scope of power rankings, yes. Power rankings should pay no consideration to past accomplishments. It's a ranking specific to the day the list is posted.

That aside, while AR had a great run and deserves his share of the credit for it's success, he still runs plays put in the playbook and called on the field by MM. AR is just a quarterback. His success is determined by the position his head coach puts him in. A star QB will run a terrible offense developed by a terrible head coach to perfection and lose. An average QB in a stellar offense developed by a genius can make mistakes and still win. Matt Flynn nearly decapitated the giant that is Tom Brady in Foxboro, remember?

And, really, that game illustrates a point I made in my earlier post - improvising a scheme on the fly that will yield results given the healthy players left on the roster, and getting your players to buy into that. At the time we had just come off the most embarrassing loss of the season in Detroit, our starting and only proven QB was in street clothes, and we were playing in a venue no visitor has walked away victorious from in forever. How the fuck were we even in that game? What happened was MM outcoached the Hoodie and we nearly stole a victory we had no shot at given the circumstances. Then rattled off 6 straight wins in elimination games to bring home the hardware. Rodgers gets credit for Rodgers' success, but he certainly doesn't steal any of MM's thunder IMO. I was lukewarm on McCarthy until this season, but he's done more than enough to convince me. Top 5 is fair.

[Bretsky]

Might want to go and check the losses Reid and Tomlin had to deal with this season as well. Shit if not for the Eagles making that huge comeback against the Giant most of you would be calling for MM's head. Now since ARod had a great playoff run it somehow moves him above coaches who have more wins and SB appearances? Sorry I give him credit but so don't see him as top 5 yet.

Their losses IMO were not that close to what GB lost. The if point was a good one but since it never occured we should be giving MM an unprecented amont of love for mowing through the best teams in the NFL and winning it all minus all of those players. Reid and Tomlin failed to do with lesser losses

[KYPack]

Brandon, yer getting rolled in this thread.

Wise up, Grasshopper.

MM coached masterfully in the the playoffs and took a step up to the top tier of NFL coaches.

His games plans on offense were perfect. His DC changed up and had stopper gameplans on D. MM let Dom work his magic and the outcome was a SB title.

You need to smell the coffee brewin'.

The most valuable lesson man has learned from his dog is to kick a few blades of grass over it and move on... Robert Brault

[Brandon494]

I could be wrong but hey it's just my opinion. One thing I can agree on is that we have a top 5 TEAM! :)

[get louder at lambeau]

I could be wrong but hey it's just my opinion. One thing I can agree on is that we have a top 5 TEAM! :)

More like a top 1 team. I guess #1 is part of the top 5.

[MJZiggy]

That's nuts; look at the roster Hoody was coaching last year; the team has a huge makeover in the past three years going very young. Ditched Moss. Welker back from a torn ACL was not as effecitive. Not a bunch of talent at RB. Very young on defense. Many can't even name the Pats two starting WR's. We witnessed two TE's develop like we wish Quarless would have developed. Plenty of teams had more talent than the Pats in the AFC. They had Hoody and Brady.

Last year might have been Hoody's best job in the regular season doing what he did with that talent....since the undefeated year. Hard to discount any coach who can go undefeated in a season

By this logic, M3 deserves to be #1. Look at his roster by the time mid season rolled around and see how many of his starters were gone. And when you go to make the "we had more talent" argument, stop for a second to think why.

[3irty1]

MM is easily top 5 and should be fighting with Tomlin and Peyton for the top spot IMO. Mike Smith and BB round out my top 5. MM has the creativity and offensive genius of Peyton, game planning that surpasses even BB. We know that he can develop a QB which will always keep him in the top half by itself. He's as good of a playcaller as exists in the NFL.

To the poster that suggested MM is worse at his job than AR, TT, or Dom... I'd lose Dom before MM, especially if I were starting a new franchise.

[Bretsky]

By this logic, M3 deserves to be #1. Look at his roster by the time mid season rolled around and see how many of his starters were gone. And when you go to make the "we had more talent" argument, stop for a second to think why.


anybody who knows both rosters would say we had far more talent. NE chose to rid themselves of their vets and go young a couple yrs ago.

You are right; we give MM loads of credit for what he did due to the injuries and IMO that's what clearly elevates him to a top 5 coach. I doubt many of us, including you, would have tried to argue MM was a top 5 coach after last year

[Fritz]

Okay, let's turn the thread a bit: who are the up-and-coming coaches already coaching in the NFL, and who is about to poop the bed and lose his job?

[get louder at lambeau]

anybody who knows both rosters would say we had far more talent. NE chose to rid themselves of their vets and go young a couple yrs ago.

The Packers did that too (Faver, Kampy, Harris, etc.) and are younger than the Patriots. The Packers are still one of the youngest teams in the league.

[Tarlam!]

The Packers are still one of the youngest teams in the league.

Second youngest in the league last season, in fact.

[KYPack]

Okay, let's turn the thread a bit: who are the up-and-coming coaches already coaching in the NFL, and who is about to poop the bed and lose his job?

Up and comers.

Raheem Morris Tampa Bay Bucs. Outgoing young coach with solid pro background. Reminds me of a Sean Payton type. Aggressive, risk-reward kind of guy

Jim Schwartz Detroit Lions. Old school but in a new wave kind of way. Preaches hitting and never say die approach. Tough guy who wants his team to kick butt, the Lions played us tougher than some more well heralded teams last season. A Marty Schott kind of guy, he looks to have the Lions going in the right direction.

Steve Spagnuolo Saint Louis. A formerD Coordinator who wants his team to hit, while playing up-tempo football. He’s the guy who finally gets St Looey out of their 2000’s slump.

Poop the Bed Candidates

Todd Haley Chiefs. He might bring it off, but….
The combo of Haley and former Pat GM Scott Pioli looked like a brilliant move by Lamar Hunt’s kid as Prexy of the Chiefs. The Chefs (on purpose sp) have made a huge turnaround under these two guys, but things started to come apart. Haley needs a special intern to help him carry around his hugely swelled head. Pioli may have to get a new guy in there as everyone gets sick of Haley’s egomania.

Tony Sparano Dolphins. I say this one facetiously. The Dolphins played good teams well last year and had some very tough losses. Tough Tony has to get a QB in there to save his job, but I like his approach to the game. He has to have a good year with his rabbi Bill P gone, so it could get ugly for the Godfather. If canned, he will definitely coordinate and probably be a HC in the league again.

John Fox Denver Broncos. It could be a real mess in the mountains. Owner Bowlen tired of Shanny the Rat, so he’s bringing in various Boy Wonders. First Josh McDaniels was sent packing after royally screwing things up. Next they bring back Horseface Harry, Johnny Elway to be a rookie President. The thought finally hit somebody, “Hey, Let’s get somebody in here who has done this sort of shit before!”. Enter John Fox. The Pony’s don’t seem to be a John Fox team and Denver doesn’t seem like a John Fox situation. It could get real Mile High ugly. At least I hope so, I still hate them muff uggers.

[Guiness]

Up and comers.

Raheem Morris Tampa Bay Bucs. Outgoing young coach with solid pro background. Reminds me of a Sean Payton type. Aggressive, risk-reward kind of guy

Jim Schwartz Detroit Lions. Old school but in a new wave kind of way. Preaches hitting and never say die approach. Tough guy who wants his team to kick butt, the Lions played us tougher than some more well heralded teams last season. A Marty Schott kind of guy, he looks to have the Lions going in the right direction.

Steve Spagnuolo Saint Louis. A formerD Coordinator who wants his team to hit, while playing up-tempo football. He’s the guy who finally gets St Looey out of their 2000’s slump.

Poop the Bed Candidates

Todd Haley Chiefs. He might bring it off, but….
The combo of Haley and former Pat GM Scott Pioli looked like a brilliant move by Lamar Hunt’s kid as Prexy of the Chiefs. The Chefs (on purpose sp) have made a huge turnaround under these two guys, but things started to come apart. Haley needs a special intern to help him carry around his hugely swelled head. Pioli may have to get a new guy in there as everyone gets sick of Haley’s egomania.

Tony Sparano Dolphins. I say this one facetiously. The Dolphins played good teams well last year and had some very tough losses. Tough Tony has to get a QB in there to save his job, but I like his approach to the game. He has to have a good year with his rabbi Bill P gone, so it could get ugly for the Godfather. If canned, he will definitely coordinate and probably be a HC in the league again.

John Fox Denver Broncos. It could be a real mess in the mountains. Owner Bowlen tired of Shanny the Rat, so he’s bringing in various Boy Wonders. First Josh McDaniels was sent packing after royally screwing things up. Next they bring back Horseface Harry, Johnny Elway to be a rookie President. The thought finally hit somebody, “Hey, Let’s get somebody in here who has done this sort of shit before!”. Enter John Fox. The Pony’s don’t seem to be a John Fox team and Denver doesn’t seem like a John Fox situation. It could get real Mile High ugly. At least I hope so, I still hate them muff uggers.

You hit two guys that came to mind for me.

Raheem on the up and coming side. He did some pretty good work with that squad this year. One different bounce of the ball, and their the #6 seed, not us.

John Fox. I laughed when I read the press about what a wonderful hire he was. He was washed up in Carolina, couldn't right the ship. Suddenly he's a saviour in Denver? The game has passed him by.

[KYPack]

You hit two guys that came to mind for me.

Raheem on the up and coming side. He did some pretty good work with that squad this year. One different bounce of the ball, and their the #6 seed, not us.

John Fox. I laughed when I read the press about what a wonderful hire he was. He was washed up in Carolina, couldn't right the ship. Suddenly he's a saviour in Denver? The game has passed him by.

I'm real impressed with Morris. I attended the Bengal Buc game last fall. Morris handled his team beautifully. He was supposed to be on the hot seat, but he kept his poise in that game. He knows the job. Same thing for Josh Freeman. That kid has deceptive size. He's bigger than you think he is. Freeman has leadership and charisma. That kid will be a big thing is this league.

Fox? Yeah, I think he's done. I imagine Denver will start with some juice and then totally fall apart. Bowlen might be smart to blow himself up. I really look for Elway to fall on his ass as team leader and all. You've got to have a lot of experience to do that gig. Maybe he'll hire Jon Bon Jovi as GM. eh?

[Pugger]

Yes, I too love to see the donkeys fall on their collective keisters too.

[Smeefers]

Rasheem Morris is frickin awesome. The bucs were incredibly fortunate to find him. I don't know how loyal they are to their coaches in TB. I couldn't believe it when they got rid of Gruden for this Morris guy. I was one of the guys calling the organization a bunch of morons and thought it was the death howl of a team that was going to fall back into 4-12 territory. I was very wrong. That man was the breath of fresh air that the team needed and he definitely seems to have the support of the team. What he's done with Freeman is stunning.

All the junk before about MM and Tomlin was hilarious. I can't believe you guys were arguing whether he was top 5 or top 10. That's like arguing about calling something pink when it's really colored salmon.

[Tarlam!]

All the junk before about MM and Tomlin was hilarious. I can't believe you guys were arguing whether he was top 5 or top 10. That's like arguing about calling something pink when it's really colored salmon.

Not only is it the off season, there's a player lockout. There aint much else to argue about.

[Guiness]

Of course, I remember thinking that old codger Vermeil would flounder when he resurfaced in KC, but he fared well. Of course, he was coming off an SB win, not a team that's drafting #1 overall.

[KYPack]

Of course, I remember thinking that old codger Vermeil would flounder when he resurfaced in KC, but he fared well. Of course, he was coming off an SB win, not a team that's drafting #1 overall.

Fox needs a QB in Denver. I wonder how solidly Elway is behind the guy, too.

[Guiness]

Fox needs a QB in Denver. I wonder how solidly Elway is behind the guy, too.

Something wrong with Tebow, and neck-beard man Orton?

[get louder at lambeau]

Something wrong with Tebow, and neck-beard man Orton?

If you could take Orton's head, from the neck-beard up, and sew it onto Tebow's body...

[Fritz]

KY glad to see you posting more.

[KYPack]

KY glad to see you posting more.

Thanks, Fritz.

I like it here among my fellow Packer Fans and moral degenerates.

[Fritz]

So you've been visiting the Garbage Can...or the Brent thread.

[Brandon494]

I just find it funny that since ARod got on a hot streak at the end of the season now MM is now one of the best in the business. What's even funnier is that if not for the Eagles having that epic comeback against the Giants the same posters praising him right now would most likely be putting him on the heat seat.

[Tarlam!]

I just find it funny that since ARod got on a hot streak at the end of the season now MM is now one of the best in the business. What's even funnier is that if not for the Eagles having that epic comeback against the Giants the same posters praising him right now would most likely be putting him on the heat seat.

So, what you're saying is Brady has nothing to do with BB's success, Ben Rapistberger has nothing to do with Tomlin's success? I recognize your point about fans being fickle. Especially around here. There were a lot of posters calling for his head right up to the beginning og the 6 game streak. Quite a few posters regretting the injuries, because they more or less guaranteed M3 getting another year.

But those same posters have since come out and stated how wrong they were. That's not fickle. That's honest.

[hoosier]

I just find it funny that since ARod got on a hot streak at the end of the season now MM is now one of the best in the business. What's even funnier is that if not for the Eagles having that epic comeback against the Giants the same posters praising him right now would most likely be putting him on the heat seat.

If the Giants had beaten the Eagles they would have won their division and Philly would have been out of the playoffs. I don't think the Packers would have had any more difficulty winning in the Meadowlands than they did in the Linc.

[Fritz]

I think a coach is in trouble when his star player walks up to him and says "I'd like some head, coach."