Has Williams passed Woodson by as the Packers' best CB?

[Tarlam!]

According to this guy, he has: http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b942g


Williams over Woodson on my CB ballot
By Kevin Seifert

From an NFC North perspective, I found myself in a bit of a box while power ranking the cornerback position this week.

Tramon Williams' play down the stretch helped the Packers win Super Bowl XLV.
On more than one occasion last season, I suggested that cornerback Tramon Williams was the Green Bay Packers' top pass defender. In December, it was my contention that Williams was the most deserving Pro Bowl candidate in a Packers secondary that also included fellow cornerback Charles Woodson and safety Nick Collins.

It wasn't a slight on Woodson or Collins, but rather a belief that Williams had developed into an elite-level cover man who was probably a year or so away from national recognition of what we in the NFC North saw all season. So when it came down to voting, I felt I had to stay true to that belief -- Williams ahead of Woodson -- while also accounting for some of the other top cornerbacks around the NFL.

I felt pretty strongly about Darrelle Revis, Nnamdi Asomugha, Asante Samuel and Champ Bailey as my top four cornerbacks. So ultimately, the highest I could get Williams was No. 5 overall. It was the top ranking he received in an exercise that ultimately placed him No. 7. (Had I voted him lower, Williams would have finished no better than No. 8.) If there were any doubts about Williams' value, remember he sealed two of the Packers' four playoff games, including Super Bowl XLV, with strong plays on the ball.

But after placing Williams at No. 5, I was forced to give Woodson his lowest ranking at No. 6 overall. (He finished No. 4.) That left another deserving NFC North cornerback, the Minnesota Vikings' Antoine Winfield, at No. 7. Winfield finished No. 6 overall despite his absence on two ballots.

So in the end, my rankings helped maneuver Williams to a spot I strongly think he deserves and hurt neither Woodson nor Winfield. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

For the record, my full ballot is below. I didn't vote for Chicago Bears cornerback Charles Tillman, who appeared on one ballot and technically finished tied for No. 15 overall.
1. Darrelle Revis
2. Nnamdi Asomugha
3. Asante Samuel
4. Champ Bailey
5. Tramon Williams
6. Charles Woodson
7. Antoine Winfield
8. DeAngelo Hall
9. Antonio Cromartie
10.Devin McCourty

I think it's an interesting, off-season/ lockout topic. Any opinions?

[Smeefers]

As a pure cover corner, Williams passed Woodson at the beginning of last season. As an overall cornerback, I'd call it dead even. Last year, especially at the end of last year, Woodson was heavily playing in the role of our "third safety" much like the Giants use. I'm not saying Woodson doesn't still have the skill set to be a very good CB (see super bowl play where he broke his collar bone), I'm just saying his style is quickly morphing into a safety style. Meanwhile, Williams is quickly becoming the shut down corner nobody thought he was going to be.

[hoosier]

Agree with Smeefers's assessment of the two. The bleacher report ranking seems to me to be based more on reputation than current abilities. Asante Samuel makes lots of big plays but he also gets toasted quite frequently. (Tramon went through the entire season without having a bad game.) Champ Bailey is apparently still living off of what he did from 2000-06. So I would put Williams and Woodson as 3a and 3b, or 3b and 3a.

[RashanGary]

I agree too. Woodson is valuable inside. You never know where he's going to be and he can handle complex assignments.

Woodson is unique and last year I think he was more valuable to the defense, but I'd rank Tramon as the better cornerback.

[RashanGary]

I'd compare it to Favre/Rodgers in 2008. Rodgers had a better arm, better legs and a more calm, collected demeanor, but Favre brought unique experience to table. Rodgers was close and on the rise, but he didn't equal Favre until 2009 and then flew past him in 2010.

Woodson is a HOFer. He still brings something special to the table and last year was one more amazing season for him. Tramon is about to fly past him though. Football is a game of youth.

[get louder at lambeau]

Woodson gets absolutely burned sometimes. People have talked about his freelancing for years, and try to blame Jarrett Bush or Atari Bigby when Woodson is out of position. He jumps routes, takes risks, makes amazing plays, misses tackles, etc. He's a risk/ reward guy with a lot of talent. Some teams even seem to target him in the short passing game, where he doesn't have time to jump the route, and if he does, he might end up on his ass as the receiver runs free. Teams have had success against him with this at times. Other times, he snatches the ball and scores the game winning TD. Risk/ reward.

Tramon is more of a traditional shut down corner style. He's the guy you just don't throw at very much if you can help it. He's the better player at this point in their careers, IMO.

Then you have Mr. Samuel Shields, who looks like he could become the best of the bunch in the near future. Maybe that's a little optimistic, but he has the best overall tools of all our CBs, with elite speed and the hands of a former WR. With his lack of experience at CB and his rapid development into the guy who had 2 INTs in the NFC Championship Game, we might be talking about whether Shields has passed Woodson and Tramon in the next year or two.

[RashanGary]

Shields played like a first round pick. It's like we got to pick twice, we got a starting tackle for the next decade with our first pick and a probowl caliber corner for the next 10 years with our 2nd.

I'm greedy, still hoping for another good corner in case Wood drops off or gets injured.

[Smeefers]

I've talked to JH before about how I thought Sam Shields is the one guy with no ceiling on our team. I've never seen such potential in a guy. I know Tramon is just starting to come on, but he's also 28. Sam is what, 23? He's already at the point that Tramon was at 2 or 3 years ago. Hell, he's ready to jump in as a starter right now. I don't want to get to overblown on the guy though. He's just one year in. He has the talent around him to help him turn into a fantastic player, but that doesn't mean he's going to do it.

[mraynrand]

Yes, and dramatically so. It's not even close.

[VermontPackFan]

Woodson gets absolutely burned sometimes. People have talked about his freelancing for years, and try to blame Jarrett Bush or Atari Bigby when Woodson is out of position. He jumps routes, takes risks, makes amazing plays, misses tackles, etc. He's a risk/ reward guy with a lot of talent. Some teams even seem to target him in the short passing game, where he doesn't have time to jump the route, and if he does, he might end up on his ass as the receiver runs free. Teams have had success against him with this at times. Other times, he snatches the ball and scores the game winning TD. Risk/ reward.

I think thats being pretty harsh on Woodson and do not agree. Bigby & Bush do just fine on their own mucking up plays, no need to throw CW under the bus.
To the original point, yes, Williams has probably passed CW as the best cover corner on the team. I just want to see him do it for a couple of years in a row.

[Guiness]

Very different roles at this point. Almost like asking if Starks or Kuhn is the better RB.

CW covers the slot, takes care of that guy going over the middle, and provides run support unlike any CB I can remember in recent memory. He covers his man, but slides off to make a TFL when he sniffs out the run. He jumps routes and makes bit INT's. Someone criticized his tackling above, but I haven't seen it.

Tramon takes his guy out of the equation, shuts down his part of the field, but he's more like a Revis, or how Al Harris was - he just doesn't get thrown at. Makes an OC's job harder, because plays are taken out of his book, because there's just no point in going there.

[Guiness]

I think thats being pretty harsh on Woodson and do not agree. Bigby & Bush do just fine on their own mucking up plays, no need to throw CW under the bus.
To the original point, yes, Williams has probably passed CW as the best cover corner on the team. I just want to see him do it for a couple of years in a row.

You mean Bush, the same one who played CW's position in the SB, and got a crucial INT? That Bush?

lol - this got brought up in another thread, that this forum's favorite whipping boy played a critical role in our Super Bowl win.

[get louder at lambeau]

I think thats being pretty harsh on Woodson and do not agree. Bigby & Bush do just fine on their own mucking up plays, no need to throw CW under the bus.
To the original point, yes, Williams has probably passed CW as the best cover corner on the team. I just want to see him do it for a couple of years in a row.

I'm saying the times you see Woodson jump a route and miss, or see him fall on his ass, or just be the guy nearest the receiver while the receiver catches the ball and runs by him. It happens. Not too infrequently either. And when I have mentioned it, there's always someone who wants to blame whoever the perceived scrub on the field is, because they think of Woodson as incapable of screwing up.

I'm not anti-Woodson by any stretch. I think the guy is a crucial part of our defense's success. I also think he screws up at times, and even (gasp!) has bad games from time to time. He's human, and he is a known freelancer. He is good at it. I just don't try to blame someone else when he screws up, like some do. Probably the same people who refused to believe that Faver ever screwed up back in the day, and that it was just his receivers running the wrong routes after any INT. People do the same for Woodson. I think it's a hero worship thing, that they must defend their favorite guy from any negative comment. Both were/are great because they weren't afraid to take risks, and both had good and bad things happen as a result of the risks they took.

[Smeefers]

I have sworn, because of Bush's performance last year, to not be to hard on him during the off season. He is the teams ST captian after all.

[steve823]

This is like comparing apples and oranges. Woodson is more physical and he plays inside most of the time. Woodson attemped 119 tackles and missed 14, which were mostly to running backs. Not bad in my opinion, and he only missed 3 tackles on WR's which is great. Also, his instincts are arguably the best out of all corners in the NFL. How many times did we see him get TFL's or just miss breaking up the play in the backfield?

Williams has become a shutdown corner. He has become the guy to put on the opposing teams best WR to shut him down. He had the 2nd best opposing QB rating only behind Samuel, at 48.3. Says a LOT. So i don't like to say one is better then the other when I talk to others about our CB's.

Bottom line is they compliment each other really nice. Then you throw in Shields with his great speed and great year, especially for a undrafted rookie, and we have a damn good secondary.

[get louder at lambeau]

Where do you get stats like that, steve823? Missed tackles on WRs? Opposing passer rating per player? Them's some in depth stats!

[steve823]

Where do you get stats like that, steve823? Missed tackles on WRs? Opposing passer rating per player? Them's some in depth stats!

I go to profootballfocus.com. I didn't sign up though so I don't have many stats, however I remembered reading an article on the physicality of corners and they had those numbers. Heres a link to the article: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/19/tackling-corners/

I try to go on sites like that because after a while ESPN and NFL.com get boring and their articles aren't that in depth.

[Jimx29]

It's a tie. And i'm happy that we have the trio that can be tied when they are all top-shelf material

[MadtownPacker]

Shield won the SB as a rookie and with style. Chuck and Tramon cant fuck with him!

[MadtownPacker]

How to become an instant legend:

http://media2.newsobserver.com/smedia/2011/01/23/20/Green_Bay_21__Chicago_14___01.23.11_7bxwB3Mb_0034. embedded.prod_affiliate.156.JPG

[Pugger]

Woodson is important. Look how different our defense was in the Super Bowl after he broke his collarbone!

[Tarlam!]

Woodson is important. Look how different our defense was in the Super Bowl after he broke his collarbone!

Couldn't agree more, but Shields also went down, making things even worse.

[VermontPackFan]

You mean Bush, the same one who played CW's position in the SB, and got a crucial INT? That Bush?

lol - this got brought up in another thread, that this forum's favorite whipping boy played a critical role in our Super Bowl win.

Yes, that Bush...I only used his name because he was in the post I responded to. I know he has been the butt of many jokes here but I agree he redeemed himself last year.

[Scott Campbell]

They don't play the same position anymore. Chuck looked terrible early in the year, getting beat early and often while racking up crazy penalty totals. I suspect his turf toe was hurting way more than they were letting on. But he redeemed himself down the stretch.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think terrible is a bit much. He wasn't the same player as the previous few years, and didn't really hit his stride until the second half of the year.

[3irty1]

They don't play the same position anymore.

This.

[Guiness]

They don't play the same position anymore. Chuck looked terrible early in the year, getting beat early and often while racking up crazy penalty totals. I suspect his turf toe was hurting way more than they were letting on. But he redeemed himself down the stretch.


I think terrible is a bit much. He wasn't the same player as the previous few years, and didn't really hit his stride until the second half of the year.

I'd almost forgot about that period of time. He was not looking good at all. It's hard to tell why that was, and what changed to make things better.

There was Harris's absence, and Williams as a new starter. With Harris over there, CW's man was targeted. Were opposing QB's testing Williams, and CW trying too hard to make something happen when the ball came his way? I'd be curious to see target #'s from early in the season - was CW being avoided, or targeted? Harris usually drew the assignment of the #1 WR, was CW suddenly covering that guy early in the season?

[Scott Campbell]

I think terrible is a bit much. He wasn't the same player as the previous few years, and didn't really hit his stride until the second half of the year.


I guess I meant terrible by reigning DPOY standards.