Top 100 players running thread

[channtheman]

I don't know if anyone else has watched this series yet, but what are your thoughts on the players ranked 100-91?

100 Donovan McNabb
99 Chad Clifton
98 Darren McFadden
97 Shaun Phillips
96 Nick Collins
95 Jon Beason
94 Frank Gore
93 Eric Berry
92 Lance Briggs
91 Terrell Ownes


It will be re-airing on NFL network a few times tomorrow if you missed it.

[Tarlam!]

Is this based on that poll they were running on NFL.com? If so, I stopped after about 1000 clicks. It cannot be accurate, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who gave up.

[channtheman]

This list is the top 100 current NFL players as decided by the NFL players. There was another list based on fan voting, and I think that is what you are talking about.

[vince]

Surprisd Collins and Briggs aren't higher. Collins is a playmaker who can take it to the house with the best of them. I'd put those two ahead of everyone else that has been identified so far.

[Tarlam!]

Vince, there are close to 1700 players on 53 man rosters, soo the Top 100 equals the cream @ about 5%. That's about fair for those guys, depending on the Safeties and 4-3 'backers yet to come.

[vince]

I can't argue with the process here. It's players voting for their peers, so it's legit. Collins is an elite playmaker in ths league though in the prime of his career. I personally would have placed him higher.

[gbgary]

Vince, there are close to 1700 players on 53 man rosters, soo the Top 100 equals the cream @ about 5%. That's about fair for those guys, depending on the Safeties and 4-3 'backers yet to come.

THIS!

[vince]

We'll see how the list looks in full, but I don't think there are 95 players in the league better than Collins. Obviously opinions to the contrary are equally legitimate, but there's no way in hell TO is in his league today just as a quick example. Not even close.

[channtheman]

We'll see how the list looks in full, but I don't think there are 95 players in the league better than Collins. Obviously opinions to the contrary are equally legitimate, but there's no way in hell TO is in his league today just as a quick example. Not even close.

I tend to agree that Collins is probably better than 96, but I also think that with only 100 players it is an honor just to be recognized. As for TO being on the list, I suppose it depends on if the players are looking at the here and now or the players entire career.

[Lurker64]

Surprisd Collins and Briggs aren't higher. Collins is a playmaker who can take it to the house with the best of them. I'd put those two ahead of everyone else that has been identified so far.

I think that since players don't usually watch football games that are happening while they are playing in other football games, and guys rarely watch a lot of film on players that they aren't going to be matched up against or they're not trying to emulate (Ndamukong Suh has no reason to pay attention to Nick Collins on film, for e.g.). So the opinion of actual players isn't necessarily significantly more immune to being shaped by "who the media pays attention to" than anybody else. As a result I think the upper echelons of the list I think are going to be dominated by guys who get a lot of publicity (QBs, WRs, RBs, Pass Rushers, and Ray Lewis).

Were an objective all-knowing being to filter out the actual top 100 players in the NFL, there'd be a lot more offensive linemen and significantly fewer wide receivers than a list decided by players, fans, or the media.

[mraynrand]

As a result I think the upper echelons of the list I think are going to be dominated by guys who get a lot of publicity (QBs, WRs, RBs, Pass Rushers, and Ray Lewis). :lol:

[mraynrand]

If it's who is best in 2011, it should be Rodgers at #1, just because of his stretch run in the 2010 playoffs. If it's sort of a name recognition/lifetime achievement award, the list won't reflect what you know to be true based on what you saw on the field last year - or on what you expect this season.

[Gunakor]

Tom Brady will still be #1. Statistically speaking he had a better season than AR did. Add to that, it's players ranking players. I doubt there are very many players in the NFL that would honestly tell you that they'd rather face Brady than Rodgers in 2011.

[3irty1]

Eric Berry ahead of Nick Collins???

[vince]

Rodgers is #11.
http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/NFL-Top-100-Aaron-Rodgers/c302104a-a986-4cc6-917b-b4493c621251

[HarveyWallbangers]

Collins should be higher, but Clifton probably should be just off the top 100 list. He's more of an Honorable Mention.

[Tarlam!]

Rodgers is #11.
http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/NFL-Top-100-Aaron-Rodgers/c302104a-a986-4cc6-917b-b4493c621251

Strong tobaccie coming from one of the best in the buisness. Gotta love it.

[RashanGary]

Wonder who the highest rated player in the NFCN is? Rodgers?

[Guiness]

Wonder who the highest rated player in the NFCN is? Rodgers?

Has anyone seen the complete list somewhere?

[Lurker64]

Wonder who the highest rated player in the NFCN is? Rodgers?

I'm betting it's Peterson. It should be Rodgers.

[channtheman]

Has anyone seen the complete list somewhere?

I was under the impression that each week the NFL Network was going to have another episode with the next ten players. I don't think the complete list is available yet.

[Guiness]

Thought it was finished...how do we know Rodger's is #11?

[channtheman]

Thought it was finished...how do we know Rodger's is #11?

I'm surprised about that too. The other episodes haven't aired but somehow Rodgers ranking is already out.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It was on the preview show. It's too low for Rodgers.

[Tarlam!]

It was on the preview show. It's too low for Rodgers.

I'm a homer, but there is no player in th NFL today that I would rather have on the Packers. For the life of me, I can't find 10 players that legitimately push him to #11.

I like it, though - keep that chip nicely visible on his shoulder!

[Lurker64]

90-81
#90 Joe Flacco
#89 Adrian Wilson
#88 Vernon Davis
#87 Jordan Gross
#86 Josh Freeman
#85 Jason Babin
#84 Josh Cribbs
#83 Mike Williams
#82 LaMarr Woodley
#81 B.J. Raji

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Woodley is a UFA.

[Lurker64]

I think Woodley is a UFA.

In the same sense that Peyton Manning is a UFA. Both players were franchised by their respective teams. Whether those tags are meaningful going forward, who can say?

[channtheman]

90-81
#90 Joe Flacco
#89 Adrian Wilson
#88 Vernon Davis
#87 Jordan Gross
#86 Josh Freeman
#85 Jason Babin
#84 Josh Cribbs
#83 Mike Williams
#82 LaMarr Woodley
#81 B.J. Raji

Thanks for posting Lurker. I recorded it but haven't watched it yet. Nice to see another Packer make the list. Interesting that Flacco is below Freeman. Not sure what to make of that.

[Brandon494]

Thanks for posting Lurker. I recorded it but haven't watched it yet. Nice to see another Packer make the list. Interesting that Flacco is below Freeman. Not sure what to make of that.

Guessing you havent watched many TB games, Freeman is a beast and doesn't have nearly the amount of talent that Flacco has around him.

[mraynrand]

Guessing you havent watched many TB games, Freeman is a beast and doesn't have nearly the amount of talent that Flacco has around him.

First, the show has a 'lifetime achievement award' element to it; second, the Ravens have been much more successful of late than the Bucs; third Freeman has had 1 - 11/2 good years to Flacco's several, and fourth Freeman has no playoff games yet - the fourth one may actually be to his credit relative to Flacco, because - as has been well documented here on Packerrats, Flacco pretty much sucks in the Playoffs. But other players vote based on team success as well, and QBs get credit for team success, deserved or not. Freeman gets in the playoffs and wins a few and his stock will rise considerably. He's a huge, tough, gamer of a QB. He's accurate enough but not exceptional in that category. It will be interesting to see whether he rises to the challenge of playoff games. Last year, injuries took a huge toll on the Bucs, but they are up and coming.

[pbmax]

But if Flacco and Freeman are in the top 100, then you have to add Manning, Brady, Brees, Rothliesberger, Rivers and Rodgers. That's a minimum of 8 QBs in the top 100. Forget specialists, there are 44 positions and let's say we drop FBs. 43 for a team. So for the top 100 that is 2 1/3 teams. And there are 8 QBs.

Neither Freeman nor Flacco are good enough to justify that kind of proportion.

There has got to be a deep safety more worthy. :D

[mraynrand]

I'm sure LaRon Landry and Ed Reed will finish higher than a lot of QBs. Is that enough for ya?

[Brandon494]

First, the show has a 'lifetime achievement award' element to it; second, the Ravens have been much more successful of late than the Bucs; third Freeman has had 1 - 11/2 good years to Flacco's several, and fourth Freeman has no playoff games yet - the fourth one may actually be to his credit relative to Flacco, because - as has been well documented here on Packerrats, Flacco pretty much sucks in the Playoffs. But other players vote based on team success as well, and QBs get credit for team success, deserved or not. Freeman gets in the playoffs and wins a few and his stock will rise considerably. He's a huge, tough, gamer of a QB. He's accurate enough but not exceptional in that category. It will be interesting to see whether he rises to the challenge of playoff games. Last year, injuries took a huge toll on the Bucs, but they are up and coming.

Flacco was drafted into the perfect situation with the Ravens, Freeman the complete opposite. Also look at all the offensive veterans Flacoo had while Freeman did it with a rookie as his #1 reciever and starting RB. Playoff success is based on team play and not the individual so your argument is weak there especially with the play Flacco has shown in the playoffs. Yes you do hear Flacco's name more because of the team he plays for but Freeman is the better player IMO and the opinion of current NFL players.

[pbmax]

I'm sure LaRon Landry and Ed Reed will finish higher than a lot of QBs. Is that enough for ya?

I'll take it. Now I am just left waiting for the inevitable article about why Flacco and Freeman aren't living up to the early, media driven promise.

[bobblehead]

Guessing you havent watched many TB games, Freeman is a beast and doesn't have nearly the amount of talent that Flacco has around him.

I'm with you. Freeman has great poise whereas I think Flacco is WAY overrated. Flacco does NOT belong on this list if you ask me.

[Lurker64]

First, the show has a 'lifetime achievement award' element to it

You have to consider who is voting for the list: NFL players. Knowing NFL players, it's highly likely that they are in no way consistently applying any well-defined criterion for their selections. It's pretty much "that guy is really good". So some guys get in on the basis of a lifetime achievement award (McNabb, T.O.) while some guys get in on the basis of one really good year and and potentially a promising future (Babin, Raji).

[mraynrand]

Playoff success is based on team play and not the individual so your argument is weak there especially with the play Flacco has shown in the playoffs.

I believe I pointed out that he played poorly in the playoffs. That I think detracted from what typically leads players to rank someone higher - playoff experience. Did you not read that?

[mraynrand]

You have to consider who is voting for the list: NFL players. Knowing NFL players, it's highly likely that they are in no way consistently applying any well-defined criterion for their selections. It's pretty much "that guy is really good". So some guys get in on the basis of a lifetime achievement award (McNabb, T.O.) while some guys get in on the basis of one really good year and and potentially a promising future (Babin, Raji).

Sure, it's an opinion poll of NFL players. I don't put much stock in it. Many players have already admitted they don't pay close attention to watching other teams. In many ways, they are like many fans - forming opinions based on weak and incomplete evidence!

[mraynrand]

I'm with you. Freeman has great poise whereas I think Flacco is WAY overrated. Flacco does NOT belong on this list if you ask me.

I'd take Freeman in a second over Flacco right now.

[Smidgeon]

Apparently the Packers have 7 players in the Top 100, which is the most of any NFL team. I just wonder if they're tied for most and who has second.

My guesses:

Clifton
Collins
Raji
Jennings
Woodson
Matthews
Rodgers

And I think Tramon Williams is snubbed.

[pbmax]

Jennings is next to be revealed between 71 and 80. So we have:

Chad Clifton (99)
Nick Collins (96)
B.J. Raji (81)
Jennings (70 something)
Woodson (??)
Matthews (??)
Rodgers (11th)

Anyone think Williams gets the nod over Wood?

[Brandon494]

While Williams did have a better season I don't think there is anyway they rank him above Woodson.

[Patler]

Anyone know who picked the list?

Don't forget that Josh Sitton won the Offensive Lineman of the Year from the National Football League Alumni Association. That vote was by retired offensive linemen only. They voted him to be the top lineman in the entire league.

If Raji made it, Sitton should have a chance.

[channtheman]

If Raji made it on just 1-2 years of production, Matthews definitely did. Woodson will be in so I think we have already figured out the Packers that made it. It's a shame that Sitton and Williams will be snubbed.

[get louder at lambeau]

While Williams did have a better season I don't think there is anyway they rank him above Woodson.

What about Finley? Do you think they left him off? Jennings made it.

[Patler]

What about Finley? Do you think they left him off? Jennings made it.

I doubt he received much (or any) consideration at all. In my opinion, 82 receptions in three seasons, with a most recent season of 5 games played aren't likely to get him much consideration from anyone other than Packer fans for this type of list.

[get louder at lambeau]

I doubt he received much (or any) consideration at all. In my opinion, 82 receptions in three seasons, with a most recent season of 5 games played aren't likely to get him much consideration from anyone other than Packer fans for this type of list.

Sick 'em, Brandon! Sick nuts! ;)

[Pugger]

They said on the NFL Network that the voting for the list was other players! I'd imagin getting voted to this list by one's peers must be very sweet for these 100 players.

[pbmax]

The players voted for this list. And supposedly, they are ranking them for 2011, though it doesn't specify performances in the 2010-11 season.

So Sitton might be an outside possibility, but I am betting on Woodson esp. if Clifton was 99.

[Patler]

The players voted for this list. And supposedly, they are ranking them for 2011, though it doesn't specify performances in the 2010-11 season.

So Sitton might be an outside possibility, but I am betting on Woodson esp. if Clifton was 99.

Now that's interesting.
If it is a projection for 2011, it makes Clifton much more of a head-scratcher, gives Sitton and Finley better chances to be included, and raises the possibility (though remote) that Woodson might be thought of as over the hill. Probably not though, and Woodson will make it, while neither Finley nor Sitton will.

[Smidgeon]

So...snubs to Williams, Finley, and Sitton?

[pbmax]

Now that's interesting.
If it is a projection for 2011, it makes Clifton much more of a head-scratcher, gives Sitton and Finley better chances to be included, and raises the possibility (though remote) that Woodson might be thought of as over the hill. Probably not though, and Woodson will make it, while neither Finley nor Sitton will.

I think we are fine-combing this more than the players and Network are. Its titled and explained as a 2011 list, but I don't get the sense its a projection into the 2011-12 season. It reads as though its all about right now, but there is no detailed discussion over the requirements or considerations.

Perhaps someone who has seen an episode of it could explain more fully?

[channtheman]

I think all that 2011 has to do with the list is that it is being done in the year 2011. After the first episode, the main discussion was whether it was more of a lifetime achievement (Clifton, McNabb, Owens as the prime examples as those players most likely will not be that good in 2011) or whether it will be for players that will be really good in 2011. They never really decided and honestly I think it's a lot of name recognition even among the players. I really doubt the players got together to form ground rules about who should get in. I'm not really even sure how the voting goes. Do all the players rank their top 100 players?

[mraynrand]

If the labor dispute continues into the season, The NFLN is going to start airing 2011: The bottom 100 players. That's the (tarnished) silver lining to the labor strife.

[bobblehead]

Jennings is next to be revealed between 71 and 80. So we have:

Chad Clifton (99)
Nick Collins (96)
B.J. Raji (81)
Jennings (70 something)
Woodson (??)
Matthews (??)
Rodgers (11th)

Anyone think Williams gets the nod over Wood?

I think Josh Sitton is a fabled impact player. Suddenly the best guard in the NFL (right after we won the superbowl). How is it possible he gets snubbed. Also right before the superbowl while discussing the playmaker theory Ron Wolf said that Clay Mathews was top 5 in the NFL and Jennings was top 10 (I think it was top 10).

Ah how I love the playmaker theory.

[pbmax]

I think Josh Sitton is a fabled impact player. Suddenly the best guard in the NFL (right after we won the superbowl). How is it possible he gets snubbed. Also right before the superbowl while discussing the playmaker theory Ron Wolf said that Clay Mathews was top 5 in the NFL and Jennings was top 10 (I think it was top 10).

Ah how I love the playmaker theory.

Didn't he get that award before the playoffs though? Or was it after the Super Bowl?

The Alumni award announcement is dated the 5th of Feb, a day before the Super Bowl. Not sure when voting occurred.

[easy cheesy]

If the labor dispute continues into the season, The NFLN is going to start airing 2011: The bottom 100 players. That's the (tarnished) silver lining to the labor strife.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner

[Lurker64]

#80 Jared Allen
#79 D'Brickashaw Ferguson
#78 Dallas Clark
#77 Chris Snee
#76 Santonio Holmes
#75 Jay Ratliff
#74 Greg Jennings
#73 Trent Cole
#72 Tony Romo
#71 Mario Williams

[RashanGary]

I doubt he received much (or any) consideration at all. In my opinion, 82 receptions in three seasons, with a most recent season of 5 games played aren't likely to get him much consideration from anyone other than Packer fans for this type of list.

You keep bringing up what he's done. That really doesn't do justice to what he is.

What do you think he is as a football player? If you put all your stock into what he did as a 21, 22 year old and injured 23 year old, I have a feeling you could be surprised when it plays out.

Finley might serve you some crow going forward. You could be right though, maybe he is just what is numbers show to this point, unless you weren't suggesting that either. In that case, what exactly did the 82 catches in 3 seasons even mean?

[Patler]

You keep bringing up what he's done. That really doesn't do justice to what he is.

What do you think he is as a football player? If you put all your stock into what he did as a 21, 22 year old and injured 23 year old, I have a feeling you could be surprised when it plays out.

Finley might serve you some crow going forward. You could be right though, maybe he is just what is numbers show to this point, unless you weren't suggesting that either. In that case, what exactly did the 82 catches in 3 seasons even mean?

Unbelievable.

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with what he might do in the future. If he stays healthy he is likely to be an all-pro, one of the very best in the league. I completely expect that to happen, if he stays healthy. I have said that over, and over again in different threads. BUT, when a ranking comes out of the top 100 players in the league, it generally requires something to have put that player in the forefront of the minds of those generating the list. Everyone sees Finley's potential, but his actual accomplishments aren't that significant, and after having missed most of the last season, those doing the rankings will look more to guys who had big seasons in 2010, or who had huge seasons in years past. Finley has had neither.

If you have read anything that I have written to mean that I don't think Finley can be one of the best in the league, you need to brush up on your comprehension skills.

[Guiness]

Whenever I see D'Bricksaw's name, I can't help but this about how snake bitten the Oakland franchise is.

They take the highest rated OL with Robert Gallery in 2004.

Jordan Gross in 2003. Jets get D'Bricksaw as the top T in 2005. Browns get Joe Thomas in 2006, and he'll undoubtedly be higher on this list.

They get a serviceable left guard in Gallery. I'm pretty sure his name won't be on this list!

[pbmax]

Dallas Clark in the 70s? Really? I know on average you less than three per position, but that seems low unless greater weight is placed on last year.

[bobblehead]

Unbelievable.

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with what he might do in the future. If he stays healthy he is likely to be an all-pro, one of the very best in the league. I completely expect that to happen, if he stays healthy. I have said that over, and over again in different threads. BUT, when a ranking comes out of the top 100 players in the league, it generally requires something to have put that player in the forefront of the minds of those generating the list. Everyone sees Finley's potential, but his actual accomplishments aren't that significant, and after having missed most of the last season, those doing the rankings will look more to guys who had big seasons in 2010, or who had huge seasons in years past. Finley has had neither.

If you have read anything that I have written to mean that I don't think Finley can be one of the best in the league, you need to brush up on your comprehension skills.

Patler, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. We aren't talking about a guy who played dominant in college and has potential. We are talking about a guy that takes over NFL games....playoff game no less. A guy who has shown at this level to be a complete game changer. Its not just potential anymore. If there was a complete redraft of the entire NFL I would put good money on Finley going top 100. Thats not quite a fair comparison, because youth would factor in, but to simply look at 82 catches in 3 seasons and say he has accomplished very little isn't quite representative of what he HAS accomplished.

Now the flip side would be defining this as the most productive players in the game....Finley belongs nowhere on that list. I think you are arguing one, while others are arguing the other.

[bobblehead]

#80 Jared Allen
#79 D'Brickashaw Ferguson
#78 Dallas Clark
#77 Chris Snee
#76 Santonio Holmes
#75 Jay Ratliff
#74 Greg Jennings
#73 Trent Cole
#72 Tony Romo
#71 Mario Williams

Really?? Tony Romo? I understand a QB premium, but here is another guy who would not be on my list (or might squeek in at 100)

[Patler]

Patler, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. We aren't talking about a guy who played dominant in college and has potential. We are talking about a guy that takes over NFL games....playoff game no less. A guy who has shown at this level to be a complete game changer. Its not just potential anymore. If there was a complete redraft of the entire NFL I would put good money on Finley going top 100. Thats not quite a fair comparison, because youth would factor in, but to simply look at 82 catches in 3 seasons and say he has accomplished very little isn't quite representative of what he HAS accomplished.

Now the flip side would be defining this as the most productive players in the game....Finley belongs nowhere on that list. I think you are arguing one, while others are arguing the other.

What I am really saying is this, when someone sits down to write the list of their "top 100 players" they have the daunting task of ranking players from all teams at all different positions into one single list. On average, 4-5 players/position; but we all know that QBs and some other "glamor" positions will have more than that, at the expense of perhaps FBs, guards and TEs.

While Finley has abundant potential, he has not had the accomplishments to rise to the level of notoriety around the league that some other TEs have had. Since only a small number of TEs will make it, I doubt Finley will have had much consideration, because accomplishments will matter. Finley is simply not a houshold name recognized by fans, players and writers around the league just yet. When they think of TEs, the think of those with gaudy numbers, the high draft picks that are talked about all the time, etc.

If he had been a first round pick, or had a huge year, or even back to back years of better than average performance he would be more of a household name. But he wasn't and hasn't.

Think of him as a well-kept secret who has not yet gained the notoriety necessary to make this type of list. If you asked all the NFL writers to list the top 2 or 3 TEs that should make the list, I doubt very many of them would think of Finley at this point. Not enough highlights on him out there yet.

Note that I did say his chances were better if this was a predictive list of the future rather than a list of current status as players.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm not really arguing here. You could make a case for him being or not being on this list. However, I think he has more notoriety than you think. People talked him up, ad nauseum, going into last year. Especially us fantasy geeks. He was a top 3 fantasy TE going into last year. Then, he kicked ass to the tune of two 100 yard games in his first 4 games last year, and the bangwagon has full. People thought of him as perhaps the best pass receiving TE in the game. That was coming off a strong end to the 2009 season and blowing up in the playoff game vs. Arizona. Now, he was injured, so perhaps some downgraded him for that. But you could say the same for some others that will likely appear on this list. I think the question for me is that going into the 2011 season would I take him as a top 100 player. I think I would. Injury risk aside. He's that talented. I'd probably have him near the bottom of the list for now (I'd take him over Santanio Holmes and a couple of others already revealed, but not a lot of the other players). I could see somebody arguing against it because of his injuries though.

[Patler]

Really?? Tony Romo? I understand a QB premium, but here is another guy who would not be on my list (or might squeek in at 100)

Yet to come, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Rivers for sure, I would think; Vick and several others possible. Starting to look like it will be almost embarrassing to be a starting QB who doesn't make it. :lol:

[Lurker64]

Really?? Tony Romo? I understand a QB premium, but here is another guy who would not be on my list (or might squeek in at 100)

The quarterbacks situation is really very strange on the list. There are 12 on the list.

The bottom four is constituted by McNabb, Flacco, Freeman, and Romo.

Obvious inclusions near the top include: Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethliberger.

That means that two of the following QBs will not make the list at all: Michael Vick, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Matt Schaub. I would easily put all of those guys ahead of McNabb.

Potentially rage inducing for Packer Fans, there are 14 WRs ahead of Greg Jennings on the list. That's unconscionable.

[swede]

I'd like to see any one of the other 14 dudes put the team on his back and score a game-winning touchdown with a broken leg.

Grrreeeeg Jennnings!

[Patler]

The quarterbacks situation is really very strange on the list. There are 12 on the list.

The bottom four is constituted by McNabb, Flacco, Freeman, and Romo.

Obvious inclusions near the top include: Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethliberger.

That means that two of the following QBs will not make the list at all: Michael Vick, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Matt Schaub. I would easily put all of those guys ahead of McNabb.

Potentially rage inducing for Packer Fans, there are 14 WRs ahead of Greg Jennings on the list. That's unconscionable.

So we already know there are 12 QBs? Shows how much attention I am paying!
More than 1/4 of the list is made up of QBs and WRs?

[RashanGary]

Think of him as a well-kept secret who has not yet gained the notoriety necessary to make this type of list. If you asked all the NFL writers to list the top 2 or 3 TEs that should make the list, I doubt very many of them would think of Finley at this point. Not enough highlights on him out there yet.

Note that I did say his chances were better if this was a predictive list of the future rather than a list of current status as players.

Agreed. It seemed like your 82 catches in 3 seasons thing was evidence for why Finley wasn't a top 100 player. Your original post could have gone either way. That's why I asked while also suggesting if you did think that way, you could easily be very wrong. When you post things and give no indication of what you think, it could lead people to believe what your facts and citations of what others might think suggest. You never really had a thesis there, just a couple facts and no closer. Your new post was very direct and easy to understand where you were coming from.


I doubt he received much (or any) consideration at all. In my opinion, 82 receptions in three seasons, with a most recent season of 5 games played aren't likely to get him much consideration from anyone other than Packer fans for this type of list.

[pbmax]

Really?? Tony Romo? I understand a QB premium, but here is another guy who would not be on my list (or might squeek in at 100)

Brady, Brees, Manning, Rivers, Rothliesberger, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Flacco and Freeman.

10 QBs? You have got to be kidding.

Not you, Bobble, but the people who voted.


EDIT: Forgot McNabb. So that's minimum eleven QBs.

[Lurker64]

So we already know there are 12 QBs? Shows how much attention I am paying!
More than 1/4 of the list is made up of QBs and WRs?

If you watch the show, intermittently they give statistical details like "there are 7 Packers on the list, there are 6 Cowboys on the list, there are four Steelers on the list, there are 2 Vikings on the list, there are no Seahawks on the list, there are 12 QBs on the list, there are 4 TEs on the list, there are four DTs on the list, of the nine active Superbowl MVPs only six are on the list, etc."

[get louder at lambeau]

Brady, Brees, Manning, Rivers, Rothliesberger, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Flacco and Freeman.

10 QBs? You have got to be kidding.

Not you, Bobble, but the people who voted.


EDIT: Forgot McNabb. So that's minimum eleven QBs.

You counted Rivers twice.

[pbmax]

You counted Rivers twice.

Exactly, ten. Like I said in between getting it completely wrong. That total is bad enough. Twelve is lunacy and really makes this list questionable.

[bobblehead]

The quarterbacks situation is really very strange on the list. There are 12 on the list.

The bottom four is constituted by McNabb, Flacco, Freeman, and Romo.

Obvious inclusions near the top include: Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethliberger.

That means that two of the following QBs will not make the list at all: Michael Vick, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Matt Schaub. I would easily put all of those guys ahead of McNabb.

Potentially rage inducing for Packer Fans, there are 14 WRs ahead of Greg Jennings on the list. That's unconscionable.

Of your list I would take each and every one of them before I would take Flacco, Romo, or McNabb.....and now I think Freeman belongs higher up the list.

[packerbacker1234]

I don't think Finley would be a snub. In the two seasons where he has seen the most playing time - he got hurt. So, hard to put a guy who has phenominal skills on a list when his two impact years were years he got hurt.

Williams and Woodson - one of them got snubbed, chances are it's williams only because his coming out party was just last year, where as Woodson has been dancing for the last 5 years or so.

It doesn't surprise me Romo made the list. Afterall McNabb made the list at #100 and he had a HORRIBLE year.

[Lurker64]

There are only three Packers left on the list. I'm almost 100% certain that they're Rodgers, Woodson, and Matthews.

[Guiness]

12 QB's are a lot. Can't say I'm surprised though, if you're naming names, I can think of 25 or more starting QB's in the league, I can't say I could do that for any other position.

2 of Vick, Manning, Ryan and Schaub will not make the list, eh? Ryan and Schaub should make it, but it might end up being Ryan and Vick, depending on when the voting took place. It might have been around the time Vick was breaking out, and he missed some votes because of that.

I don't have as big a problem with McNabb making it as some. He had a down '10 season, but that was a horrible situation. His '08 and '09 numbers were still good, and I think most voting would expect him to return to that sort of form.

[Pugger]

This is such a QB driven league that it shouldn't surprise us but the voters are the players so that is why I find 11 QBs on the list odd. Having McNabb and Romo on the list is odd too.

[Pugger]

This is such a QB driven league that it shouldn't surprise us but the voters are the players so that is why I find 11 QBs on the list questionable. But Romo and McNabb? Really? I'm wondering if they are getting votes because their peers like them personally and not for their play on the field...

[Iron Mike]

I'm wondering if they are getting votes because their peers like them personally and not for their play on the field...

Bingo.

[Patler]

Which is worse, having 11 or 12 QBs make the list of "100 Best"; or having (apparently) something like 17 WRs on the list?

[mraynrand]

First, the show has a 'lifetime achievement award' element to it; second, 'team x' has been much more successful of late.... third Player Y has had more good years, and fourth Player Z has no playoff games yet. But other players vote based on team success as well, and QBs get credit for team success, deserved or not.

The top 100 list sucks because they asked current players


Sure, it's an opinion poll of NFL players. I don't put much stock in it. Many players have already admitted they don't pay close attention to watching other teams. In many ways, they are like many fans - forming opinions based on weak and incomplete evidence!

[RashanGary]

Which is worse, having 11 or 12 QBs make the list of "100 Best"; or having (apparently) something like 17 WRs on the list?

I suppose that would depend on each person's definition of best.

[Patler]

I suppose that would depend on each person's definition of best.

As it does for the one or two centers who probably made it, the 5 or so TEs and for every other player and every other position.

[Fritz]

What about Brady Poppinga?

[swede]

What about Brady Poppinga?

#98 on the silly names list--one ahead of Warren Sapp and behind Joe Klecko.

[Brandon494]

Im guessing top ten will be...

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Adrian Peterson
4. Andre Johnson
5. Troy Polamalu
6. Darrelle Revis
7. Nnamdi Asomugha
8. Ray Lewis
9. Demarcus Ware
10. Chris Johnson

fuck it

11. Aaron Rodgers
12. Larry Fitzgerald
13. Joe Thomas
14. Patrick Willis
15. Jake Long
16. James Harrison
17. Ed Reed
18. Jon Beason
19. Drew Brees
20. Phillip Rivers

[Lurker64]

Ray Lewis will be in the Top Ten. He may be in the top 3. Jon Beason will not be in the top 20 because he's #94 already.

[Brandon494]

Your right, I forgot all about him for some reason.

[RashanGary]

As it does for the one or two centers who probably made it, the 5 or so TEs and for every other player and every other position.

Best in the sense of overall impact would be different than best at their respective position. Stud DL, LT, QB, RB would seem to be premium to me. I'd lean in favor of a few more of those guys.

[Smidgeon]

Peter King has his own Top 100 that he's revealing on his MMQB column as the NFL Network does theirs. In his bottom 30 are both Sam Shields and Jermichael Finley. I'm guessing his list will be a lot closer to what we think.

Since active players only voted for a Top 20 and the Network compiled based on that, there are going to be a lot of undeserving people on the list. For example, if everyone thought Nick Collins was a Top 30 player, but only a few thought he was Top 20, he'd be way down the list (like he is) even if he really is considered a Top 30 player.

So definitely a problem with the way they compiled the list.

[channtheman]

Peter King has his own Top 100 that he's revealing on his MMQB column as the NFL Network does theirs. In his bottom 30 are both Sam Shields and Jermichael Finley. I'm guessing his list will be a lot closer to what we think.

Since active players only voted for a Top 20 and the Network compiled based on that, there are going to be a lot of undeserving people on the list. For example, if everyone thought Nick Collins was a Top 30 player, but only a few thought he was Top 20, he'd be way down the list (like he is) even if he really is considered a Top 30 player.

So definitely a problem with the way they compiled the list.

Where did you find out how they voted? That is a really stupid way to vote.

[Smidgeon]

Where did you find out how they voted? That is a really stupid way to vote.

Peter King explained the process in his column right before he showed his 70-100

[HarveyWallbangers]

Best in the sense of overall impact would be different than best at their respective position. Stud DL, LT, QB, RB would seem to be premium to me. I'd lean in favor of a few more of those guys.

I wouldn't put RB on the list of premium positions. It would be QB, LT, pass rusher, and cover corner. RBs are kind of a dime a dozen. You don't need a good RB to win. It's tough to win without a good QB, pass blocking LT, pass rusher (whether a 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB), and cover corner. Luckily, we had Rodgers, Clifton, Matthews, and Williams/Woodson/Shields last year.

[channtheman]

Peter King explained the process in his column right before he showed his 70-100

Got it. I think it would have made more sense to just have the players vote top 100. Or if they must limit the number because most of the players can't count that high, they should have done top 50. Just going off the top 20 seems like it would be way to easy to leave some good players out and then have what happened with Collins.

[Lurker64]

Got it. I think it would have made more sense to just have the players vote top 100. Or if they must limit the number because most of the players can't count that high, they should have done top 50. Just going off the top 20 seems like it would be way to easy to leave some good players out and then have what happened with Collins.

Yeah, Top 20 just seems like a bad way to do this since it will underrepresent certain positions. Very few people have a guard, tight end, or defensive tackle listed in their "top 20 players in the entire NFL" and those who do may disagree on which one. Though a lot of people would probably have guys from that position in the 20-50 range.

They should really at least ask for people to rank at least half of the length of the list.

[mraynrand]

There's no way the top 100 should lack a long-snapper.

[MJZiggy]

There's no way the top 100 should lack a long-snapper.

Or a punter. Some of these guys go in the third round...

[Lurker64]

70: Miles Austin
69: John Abraham
68: Antrel Rolle
67: Brian Waters
66: Richard Seymour
65: Vonta Leach
64: Tamba Hali
63: Cameron Wake
62: Jerod Mayo
61: Brandon Marshall

Assorted Tidbits:
All but two Miami alums in the countdown were coached by Butch Davis
21 players on the list have suited up for 2 or more teams in their careers
Only one FB on the list
No kickers, punters, or longsnappers on the list.
Only one player from the state of Maryland on the list.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Vonta Leach? Seriously? Better than Jennings, Raji, and Collins?

[swede]

I'm sorry, but the NFL Network should take some heat for creating a really shitty concept wrapped in a mangled tortilla of WTF?

I call upon Skinbasket, Lord of Foul Invective, to cast an imprecation upon the producers of this disaster.

I saw twenty seconds of one episode and it was Joe Flacco. Joe Flacco.

I'm done caring. The only reason I click on the thread is to fix the cheese icon.

[MJZiggy]

Can he do that on command?

[bobblehead]

Vonta Leach? Seriously? Better than Jennings, Raji, and Collins?

Actually, this will go down as TT's worst move and PR nightmare. He never should have let VL go. I heard that middle of last season when Kory Hall got hurt and Quinn Johnson wasn't living up to standards that he in fact OFFERED Raji straight up for Leech, but got rejected.

[swede]

Can he do that on command?

I'm not sure, but it doesn't hurt to place an order.

Skin could have an online business getting people to pay him to send horrific e-mails to the idiots that torment them.

I'm pretty sure his wife could sort out the legal issues and get his best stuff copyrighted. The words eat, syphilis and dog vomit are in the public domain but Skin might want to protect the intellectual property he creates when informs someone's ex-boss that he is an eater of syphilitic dog vomit.

[Lurker64]

Vonta Leach? Seriously? Better than Jennings, Raji, and Collins?

It's also hard to imagine that Vonta Leach is ahead of guys like Flacco and Freeman too.

I think that Leach is as high as he is as a function of the methodology of the vote. Players only got to vote for 20 people, and a number of them felt obligated to vote for a fullback because otherwise the position would not be represented. So Leach probably got a bunch of votes at 20 just by default since he's the best fullback.

[Smidgeon]

Vonta Leach? Seriously? Better than Jennings, Raji, and Collins?

And how did Vonta Leach reach anyone's Top 20??

[Lurker64]

And how did Vonta Leach reach anyone's Top 20??

They felt obligated to include a fullback. It's the only reason I can imagine.

[channtheman]

They felt obligated to include a fullback. It's the only reason I can imagine.

I was going to post exactly what you did. Same thing goes for the 3 positions that didn't make it. Most players might feel guilty about not including a "real" football player like a fullback in their top 20 but very few would include a kicker, punter, or longsnapper in the top 20 (as evidenced by none making it). I could have seen them include one of those positions in their top 50, however. The more this series goes on the more pathetic it is. The entire thing is just stupid.

[Tarlam!]

From the outset I said we need to wait and see the list develop by position. Well, you guys were right and I was wrong. As Chan says, pathetic, stupid. A lot like the Pro Bowl - imagine not including Rodgers! How pathetic is that?

[RashanGary]

Do you think we could trade Greg Jennings and BJ Raji straight up for Vonta Leach?

[Lurker64]

Do you think we could trade Greg Jennings and BJ Raji straight up for Vonta Leach?

Leach is a free agent actually. Break the bank, we've got to bring him in. It's more important to sign Leach than extend Jennings, Collins, and Raji.

[RashanGary]

Bulaga probably wasn't anywhere near making the list. I wonder if we could get Leach for Bulaga straight up. If not Bulaga, maybe we if we sent Sitton it would seal the deal for Leach.

We have some good players who didn't make this list. I'm sure other teams do too.

[Lurker64]

I wonder if we could get Leach for Bulaga straight up. If not Bulaga, maybe we if we sent Sitton it would seal the deal for Leach.

Why are you trading for free agents? The path to acquiring Leach is clear: record contract.

[Smeefers]

Why are you trading for free agents? The path to acquiring Leach is clear: record contract.

Because trading for free agents is waaay funnier.

[RashanGary]

Assuming Leach had a contract. . . . What starter on our team last year (before the injuries would you trade for Leach?)


Woodson
Tramon
Collins
Burnett

B Jones
Hawk
Barnett
Matthews

Jenkins
Raji
Pickett

Clifton
Colledge
Wells
Sitton
Bulaga

Driver
Jennings
Finley

Grant
Hall

Rodgers

Hall for sure

Burnett? Jones? Colledge? Wells?

[RashanGary]

Most of our starting lineup is more valuable than Vonta Leach. I'm shocked he made the list. He's a hell of a FB, but he's a fuckin full back in a passing league.

[bobblehead]

Why are you trading for free agents? The path to acquiring Leach is clear: record contract.

TT doesn't sign FA....we have to trade for them.

[channtheman]

60. Justin Tuck DE-NYG
59. Jeff Saturday C-NYG
58. Brandon Lloyd WR-DEN
57. Andre Guorde C-DAL
56. Ray Rice RB-BAL
55. Carl Nicks OG-NO
54. Asante Samuel CB-PHI
53. Marques Colston WR-NO
52. Matt Ryan QB-ATL
51. Ndamukong Suh DT-DET

My God is this a boring off season or what? All we have to (barely) discuss is the lockout and this crappy list. Who is Brandon Lloyd? Now I have to go look him up and see why he is better than Jennings.

[channtheman]

Brandon Lloyd career stats


Year Team G GS Rec Yards AVG LG TD
2003 SF 16 1 14 212 15.1 44 2
2004 SF 13 13 43 565 13.1 52 6
2005 SF 16 15 48 733 15.3 89 5
2006 WAS 15 12 23 365 15.9 52 0
2007 WAS 8 1 2 14 7.0 9 0
2008 CHI 11 5 26 364 14.0 32 2
2009 DEN 2 1 8 117 14.6 44 0
2010 DEN 16 11 77 1,448 18.8 71 11
Tot. N/A 97 59 241 3,818 15.8 89 26

I know we all know this list is just freaking stupid, but how in the HELL is this guy considered better than Jennings? Because in one year he got almost half of his career stats? Jeez, this is so stupid it is just... Ugh.

[bobblehead]

If you watch him play and compare him to Brandon Marshall, I would say its no comparison either. Marshall is far superior....and has had a superior career.

2006 DEN 15 20 309 15.5 71 2 14 1 0
2007 DEN 16 102 1325 13.0 68 7 70 3 1
2008 DEN 15 104 1265 12.2 47 6 65 3 2
2009 DEN 15 101 1120 11.1 75 10 56 0 0
2010 MIA 14 86 1014 11.8 46 3 57 2 1

He is more of a keyshawn johnson type possession guy, but damn, I rank him top 4 in the NFL (WR that is).

[Pugger]

This little list is so stupid I'm not gonna pay any attention to it from here on out. I'd rather play solitaire on the computer rather than keep up with this. :lol:

[MadScientist]

Maybe some players thought 'That Brandon guy from Denver is really good.' and looked it up and found Brandon Lloyd, and missed the fact that Marshall is now with Miami.

Pity we can't get all of the lists and correlate votes with wonderlic test scores.

[mraynrand]

Pity we can't get all of the lists and correlate votes with wonderlic test scores.

You just wait and see. If the season gets delayed significantly or cancelled, the NFLN is going to have a program entitled "The Top 100 wonderlic scores in the NFL."

[RashanGary]

I've never heard of andrew gurode. That's weird. And he's been in the league a long time. Just strange.

[Bretsky]

I've never heard of andrew gurode. That's weird. And he's been in the league a long time. Just strange.

very solid OL; everybody hears about Mangold but this guy is under the radar. As an OL it's good if you are not noticed.

[Patler]

I've never heard of andrew gurode. That's weird. And he's been in the league a long time. Just strange.

Sure you have. Gurode is the guy Albert Haynesworth stomped on the head during a game a few years back when Haynesworth was still with Tennessee.

[channtheman]

Skip to 1:40 if you just want to see the stomp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwxMRPTsYeo

[Patler]

Clever play by Gurode, to stick his head under Haynesworth's foot and draw a penalty like that! :whist: :wink: :grin:

[channtheman]

Clever play by Gurode, to stick his head under Haynesworth's foot and draw a penalty like that! :whist: :wink: :grin:

:lol:

[RashanGary]

I'll take a shot at the top 11, off the top of my head.


Brady
Manning
Ware
Ngata
J. Thomas
T Polamalu
Chris Johnson
A Peterson
A Johnson
D Brees
A Rodgers

[mraynrand]

My God is this a boring off season or what? All we have to (barely) discuss is the lockout and this crappy list. Who is Brandon Lloyd? Now I have to go look him up and see why he is better than Jennings.

When Fritz and PBmax give up on it, you know it's awful.

[channtheman]

When Fritz and PBmax give up on it, you know it's awful.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

[channtheman]

21 Harrison, James LB Steelers
22 Gates, Antonio TE Chargers
23 Willis, Patrick LB 49ers
24 White, Roddy WR Falcons
25 Foster, Arian RB Texans
26 Rivers, Philip QB Chargers
27 Johnson, Calvin WR Lions
28 Long, Jake T Dolphins
29 Jackson, DeSean WR Eagles
30 Jones-Drew, Maurice RB Jaguars
31 Wayne, Reggie WR Colts
32 Hester, Devin WR Bears
33 Charles, Jamaal RB Chiefs
34 Evans, Jahri T Saints
35 Wilfork, Vince DT Patriots
36 Witten, Jason TE Cowboys
37 Vilma, Jonathan LB Saints
38 Jackson, Steven RB Rams
39 Mankins, Logan G Patriots
40 Suggs, Terrell LB Ravens
41 Roethlisberger, Ben QB Steelers
42 Turner, Michael RB Falcons
43 Thomas, Joe T Browns
44 Mathis, Robert DE Colts
45 Bowe, Dwayne WR Chiefs
46 Gonzalez, Tony TE Falcons
47 Mangold, Nick C Jets
48 Bailey, Champ CB Broncos
49 Urlacher, Brian LB Bears
50 Welker, Wes WR Patriots

[Lurker64]

I'll take a shot at the top 11, off the top of my head.


Brady
Manning
Ware
Ngata
J. Thomas
T Polamalu
Chris Johnson
A Peterson
A Johnson
D Brees
A Rodgers

I'm pretty sure the top 20 are (in some order):

5 QBs: Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Vick
2 WRs: A. Johnson, Fitzgerald.
2 RBs: C. Johnson, Peterson
2 DEs: Peppers, Freeney
1 DT: Ngata
3 LBs: Ware, Lewis, Matthews.
3 CBs: Revis, Asomugha, Woodson
2 Ss: Polamalu, Reed.

That's 20.

[Smeefers]

I'm pretty sure the top 20 are (in some order):

5 QBs: Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Vick
2 WRs: A. Johnson, Fitzgerald.
2 RBs: C. Johnson, Peterson
2 DEs: Peppers, Freeney
1 DT: Ngata
3 LBs: Ware, Lewis, Matthews.
3 CBs: Revis, Asomugha, Woodson
2 Ss: Polamalu, Reed.

That's 20.

Holy wow. Please tell me you didn't just do that off the top of your head. Fantastic list.

[Lurker64]

I'm pretty sure the top 20 are (in some order):

5 QBs: Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Vick
2 WRs: A. Johnson, Fitzgerald.
2 RBs: C. Johnson, Peterson
2 DEs: Peppers, Freeney
1 DT: Ngata
3 LBs: Ware, Lewis, Matthews.
3 CBs: Revis, Asomugha, Woodson
2 Ss: Polamalu, Reed.

That's 20.

#20 Michael Vick (check)
#19 Clay Matthews (check)
#18 Nnamdi Asomugha (check)
#17 Haloti Ngata (check)
#16 Charles Woodson (check)
#15 Dwight Freeney (check)
#14 Larry Fitzgerald (check)
#13 Chris Johnson (check)
#12 DeMarcus Ware (check)
#11 Aaron Rodgers (check)

So the top 10 should be (in whatever order): Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Andre Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Julius Peppers, Ray Lewis, Darrelle Revis, Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed.

[Smidgeon]

Peter King finally finished presenting his Top 100 (just got back from vacation). The following is the complete lists, side by side (Players' on the left; King's on the right):


1 QB Tom Brady New England QB Tom Brady New England
2 QB Peyton Manning Indianapolis QB Aaron Rodgers Green Bay
3 RB Adrian Peterson Minnesota QB Peyton Manning Indianapolis
4 LB Ray Lewis Baltimore QB Drew Brees New Orleans
5 FS Ed Reed Baltimore LB DeMarcus Ware Dallas
6 SS Troy Polamalu Pittsburgh CB Darrelle Revis NY Jets
7 WR Andre Johnson Houston QB Ben Roethlisb. Pittsburgh
8 CB Darrelle Revis NY Jets CB Nnamdi Asomugha Oakland
9 QB Drew Brees New Orleans WR Andre Johnson Houston
10 DE Julius Peppers Chicago QB Philip Rivers San Diego
11 QB Aaron Rodgers Green Bay LB Clay Matthews Green Bay
12 LB DeMarcus Ware Dallas T Jake Long Miami
13 RB Chris Johnson Tennessee WR Larry Fitzg. Arizona
14 WR Larry Fitzg. Arizona DE/OLB Terrell Suggs Baltimore
15 DE Dwight Freeney Indianapolis RB Adrian Peterson Minnesota
16 CB Charles Woodson Green Bay CB Tramon Williams Green Bay
17 DT Haloti Ngata Baltimore OLB Tamba Hali Kansas City
18 CB Nnamdi Asomugha Oakland DE Julius Peppers Chicago
19 LB Clay Matthews Green Bay QB Michael Vick Philadelphia
20 QB Michael Vick Philadelphia WR Calvin Johnson Detroit
21 LB James Harrison Pittsburgh RB Chris Johnson Tennessee
22 TE Antonio Gates San Diego DT Ndamukong Suh Detroit
23 LB Patrick Willis San Francisco LB LaMarr Woodley Pittsburgh
24 WR Roddy White Atlanta DL Justin Tuck NY Giants
25 RB Arian Foster Houston DT Haloti Ngata Baltimore
26 QB Philip Rivers San Diego QB Matt Ryan Atlanta
27 WR Calvin Johnson Detroit NT Kyle Williams Buffalo
28 T Jake Long Miami LB Lawrence Timm. Pittsburgh
29 WR/PR DeSean Jackson Philadelphia LB Patrick Willis San Francisco
30 RB Maurice J-Drew Jacksonville DE Dwight Freeney Indianapolis
31 WR Reggie Wayne Indianapolis LB James Harrison Pittsburgh
32 WR/PR Devin Hester Chicago TE Antonio Gates San Diego
33 RB Jamaal Charles Kansas City WR Greg Jennings Green Bay
34 G Jahri Evans New Orleans DL Vince Wilfork New England
35 DL Vince Wilfork New England DE Trent Cole Philadelphia
36 TE Jason Witten Dallas WR/PR DeSean Jackson Philadelphia
37 LB Jonathan Vilma New Orleans RB Arian Foster Houston
38 RB Steve Jackson St. Louis LB Cameron Wake Miami
39 G Logan Mankins New England WR Vincent Jackson San Diego
40 OLB/DE Terrell Suggs Baltimore QB Matt Schaub Houston
41 QB Ben Roethlisb. Pittsburgh G Carl Nicks New Orleans
42 RB Michael Turner Atlanta LB Bart Scott NY Jets
43 T Joe Thomas Cleveland RB Jamaal Charles Kansas City
44 DE Robert Mathis Indianapolis WR Mike Wallace Pittsburgh
45 WR Dwayne Bowe Kansas City DE Justin Smith San Francisco
46 TE Tony Gonzalez Atlanta DE Jared Allen MInnesota
47 C Nick Mangold NY Jets RB Ray Rice Baltimore
48 CB Champ Bailey Denver TE Jason Witten Dallas
49 LB Brian Urlacher Chicago LB Brian Urlacher Chicago
50 WR Wes Welker New England SS Troy Polamalu Pittsburgh
51 DT Ndamukong Suh Detroit LB Jerod Mayo New England
52 QB Matt Ryan Atlanta T Joe Thomas Cleveland
53 WR Marques Colston New Orleans RB Steven Jackson St. Louis
54 CB Asante Samuel Philadelphia FS Ed Reed Baltimore
55 G Carl Nicks New Orleans WR Roddy White Atlanta
56 RB Ray Rice Baltimore G Logan Mankins New England
57 C Andre Gurode Dallas CB Charles Woodson Green Bay
58 WR Brandon Lloyd Denver RB Peyton Hills Cleveland
59 C Jeff Saturday Indianapolis WR Wes Welker New England
60 DL Justin Tuck NY Giants LB Ray Lewis Baltimore
61 WR Brandon Marsh. Miami TE Marcedes Lewis Jacksonville
62 LB Jerod Mayo New England CB Champ Bailey Denver
63 LB Cameron Wake Miami NT Aubrayo Frankl. San Francisco
64 OLB Tamba Hali Kansas City G Davin Joseph Tampa Bay
65 FB Vontae Leach Houston P Shane Lechler Oakland
66 DT Richard Seymour Oakland CB Jabari Greer New Orleans
67 G Brian Waters Kansas City DT Kevin Williams Minnesota
68 S Antrel Rolle NY Giants T Andrew Whitw. Cincinnati
69 DE John Abraham Atlanta WR Reggie Wayne Indianapolis
70 WR Miles Austin Dallas RB LeSean McCoy Philadelphia
71 DE Mario Williams Houston OLB Brian Orakpo Washington
72 QB Tony Romo Dallas DE John Abraham Atlanta
73 DE Trent Cole Philadelphia G Jahri Evans New Orleans
74 WR Greg Jennings Green Bay C Maurkice Pounc. Pittsburgh
75 DT Jay Ratliff Dallas CB Devin McCourty New England
76 WR Santonio Holmes NY Jets CB Vontae Davis Miami
77 G Chris Snee NY Giants QB Eli Manning NY Giants
78 TE Dallas Clark Indianapolis WR Brandon Lloyd Denver
79 T D'Bri. Ferguson NY Jets WR Santonio Holmes NY Jets
80 DE Jared Allen Minnesota DE Robert Mathis Indianapolis
81 DT B.J. Raji Green Bay QB Joe Flacco Baltimore
82 OLB LaMarr Woodley Pittsburgh G-T Marshal Yanda Baltimore
83 WR Mike Williams Tampa Bay TE J-Mike Finley Green Bay
84 KR/WR Josh Cribbs Cleveland DE Elvis Dumervil Denver
85 DE Jason Babin Tennessee QB Jay Cutler Chicago
86 QB Josh Freeman Tampa Bay WR Brandon Marsh. Miami
87 T Jordan Gross Carolina CB Joe Haden Cleveland
88 TE Vernon Davis San Francisco TE Dallas Clark Indianapolis
89 S Adrian Wilson Arizona C Nick Mangold NY Jets
90 QB Joe Flacco Baltimore QB Josh Freeman Tampa Bay
91 WR Terrell Owens Cincinnati T D'Bri. Ferguson NY Jets
92 LB Lance Briggs Chicago LB Chad Greenway Minnesota
93 S Eric Berry Kansas City QB Tony Romo Dallas
94 RB Frank Gore San Francisco WR Stevie Johnson Buffalo
95 LB Jon Beason Carolina CB Brent Grimes Atlanta
96 S Nick Collins Green Bay WR Hines Ward Pittsburgh
97 LB Shaun Phillips San Diego QB Sam Bradford St. Louis
98 RB Darren McFadden Oakland CB Brandon Flowers Kansas City
99 T Chad Clifton Green Bay FS Eric Weddle San Diego
100 QB Donovan McNabb Washington CB Sam Shields Green Bay

My thoughts on the comparisons between the lists:

1 Rodgers, Woodson, Matthews, and Jennings only Packers both had
2 Players had Raji, Collins, Clifton
3 King had Williams, Finley, and Shields
4 It seemed that King placed more value on present value (Finley and Shields) and the players more on "What you've already done" (Clifton).
5 For oversights, I think the Players were right to include Collins and Raji; I think King was right to include Finley. I'm unsure about Shields at this point, but King put him at #100. So he's borderline, as I think he should be.
6 King had all three GB CBs; Players had one
7 King had Jennings 41 places higher at #33
8 Players had Woodson 41 places higher, at #16
9 King's highest unranked Packer by the players was Williams at #16
10 Players' highest unranked Packer by King was Raji at #81
11 King had Pittsburgh with most at 8
12 Players had Green Bay with most at 7
13 Biggest difference: King had 4 more Steelers
14 Second biggest difference: King had three fewer Cowboys
15 King's highest unranked by the players was Williams at #16
16 Players' highest unranked by King was Jones-Drew at #30
17 Seattle didn't have a player on either list
18 King had 2 in Buffalo; Players had none
19 Players had 2 in Carolina; King had none
20 King had too many in Minnesota with 4. ;) But he also didn't rank Hester at all, but I think that was because he put less value on returners who were ordinary in other categories
------
21 Based on these lists, if subscribing to the Playmakers Theory, the Packers obstacles to a dynasty are Baltimore, Dallas, Indianapolis, Atlanta, KC, New England, and New Orleans from the players perspective and Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, Indianapolis, and the Jets from King's perspective
22 New England, Indianapolis, and Baltimore are the only teams (besides GB) who had more than 4 players on both lists
------
23 Combining perspectives (i.e. total players on both lists), the Packers were the strongest team with Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Indy, and NE filling out the rest of the Top 5 (sounds about right, although Baltimore seems high).
24 Combining rankings (i.e. Top player gets 100 points, second 99, etc; adding all players' rankings together for one team), GB ranked #5 on the Players' list
25 Combining rankings, GB ranked #2 on King's list
26 Combining rankings, the players had Baltimore ranked first over Indy with the biggest gap in the rankings being between #2 and #3
27 Combining rankings, King had Pittsburgh ranked first with the biggest gap being between #4 and #5 (gap between #1 and #2 the third largest gap)
28 Combining perspectives of rankings, Baltimore was the strongest, followed by Green Bay, Pittsburgh, NE, and Indy (still don't quite get the Baltimore love)
------
29 Pittsburgh had the biggest ranking advantage by King; Green Bay had the second--but it wasn't even close (201 to 94)
30 Indy had the largest loss in rankings by King; Dallas had the second
------

Now back to your regularly scheduled, non-stats overkill football. :D

[pbmax]

King really put Williams up high after the players left him off the list.

[3irty1]

This top 100 players list by the players seems to be way out of base with actual performance on the field. I'd like to see one done by the fans.

The top 10 or so players could be chosen from each franchise, put into a database and two and a time could be randomly chosen for a given fan. That fan could quickly choose which player was better at their job and then get two more random players. Each fan decision could be recorded in the form of an ELO rating formula such that each player would eventually end up with a rating. Top 100 ratings = top 100 players.

I could make a script and a page for Mad for mad to host if this sounds interesting to people here.

[vince]

That sounds really interesting to me. If it were communicated well, it could gain some traffic and notoriety for the site.

[Smidgeon]

That sounds really interesting to me. If it were communicated well, it could gain some traffic and notoriety for the site.

Very much agree. I think it would be fascinating.

[HarveyWallbangers]

2 Players had Raji, Collins, Clifton
3 King had Williams, Finley, and Shields

I can see leaving off Clifton, but it's hard to trust a guy who leaves Collins off. Raji is pretty damn good also. Substitute Williams for Clifton, and I think you have the guys that deserve it for the Packers. Finley would be there on talent or projecting for this year, but the injuries leave him off. I'm not quite ready to say Shields is one of the best 100 players in the NFL (e.g. top 3 player on an average team). I could see him giving him an honorable mention, but I think King was trying to hard to be different there.

[3irty1]

Mad, would you host this? I'd probably make it to work with a flat file, you won't even have to mess with you SQL.

To do this it should be done right.

Should there be images of each player in the database for the user to see or just a name? If there are pictures, I'll ask for volunteers to help with the graphics. Either way we'll need some kind of input to figure out the top 10 players on each team.

[Smidgeon]

Mad, would you host this? I'd probably make it to work with a flat file, you won't even have to mess with you SQL.

To do this it should be done right.

Should there be images of each player in the database for the user to see or just a name? If there are pictures, I'll ask for volunteers to help with the graphics. Either way we'll need some kind of input to figure out the top 10 players on each team.

Personally, I don't think pictures are necessary. These would be the most well known players in the league. Pictures would make the idea more marketable (if trying to appeal to people outside PR), but would also make the whole thing take longer...

[3irty1]

Personally, I don't think pictures are necessary. These would be the most well known players in the league. Pictures would make the idea more marketable (if trying to appeal to people outside PR), but would also make the whole thing take longer...

Without the pictures I can have this done by the end of the week. You'd think there would be a football card site that we could easily wget pictures from.

[MadtownPacker]

Without the pictures I can have this done by the end of the week. You'd think there would be a football card site that we could easily wget pictures from.
I set you up with album permissions. Give it a try and if you want let everyone know what you think.

[SkinBasket]

Without the pictures I can have this done by the end of the week. You'd think there would be a football card site that we could easily wget pictures from.

Or a search engine which allows you to search for images... hmmm... if only such a thing existed. :-p

[MadtownPacker]

Or a search engine which allows you to search for images... hmmm... if only such a thing existed. :-p
(Fuck Im gonna regret this)

I set you up with album permissions too.

[3irty1]

Or a search engine which allows you to search for images... hmmm... if only such a thing existed. :-p

That won't be good enough for this, the images all need to be the same size and filetype. It'd be even better if each image had their name in it, like a football card.

[MadtownPacker]

I just read your post and I see you want to do more than just pictures. I can make a separate DB for this so we dont have to worry about it. If there is some opensource shit you can use let me know and I will install it.

[3irty1]

The only thing I'll probably need is jquery if you don't already have it.

Looking at all the major sports sites, the only one that's really accessible with a wget script is cbssports and that would get us 60x80 thumbnails that are so boring we might as well use names. Action shots would be better. For images we'll probably have to do it skin's way. We can do a google images search for images all in the same aspect ratio and I can write a script using imagemagic to format them all the same. Putting their name right on the image is greedy and not needed.

[3irty1]

Well the ranking script is all done and works. I did a smaller version of our experiment for QB's only. It is being hosted on my personal site. I don't really want to post the URL but those who want to see it can PM me.

Someone needs to take initiative to build our list of top 100 nominees. Any suggestions on how we get such a list?

[Partial]

That won't be good enough for this, the images all need to be the same size and filetype. It'd be even better if each image had their name in it, like a football card.

Read in the bitmap of the image, convert to png, boom, done. Should be really easy. Lemme know if you need help w/ anything.

[SkinBasket]

(Fuck Im gonna regret this)

I set you up with album permissions too.

You won't regret it. I don't even know what that means. I'm willing to find pictures after we build our list though. I'm assuming you just gave me a place to put them.

You'll just have to let me know if you want the images to be "action shots" as in playing football or flogging the dolphin. I'm assuming my masterworks in the GC are the only resume I need for the latter.

[pbmax]

Allow me to play middle manager for a moment. What is the focus of this list, the point? Best players now? Best players you would choose to build a team with and go forward? More of a lifetime achievement so the list looks like the Hall of Fame candidates from the current rosters?

For me, the focus should be which players you would take to win a game next week.

Should all positions be represented?

Should this be a separate thread with a poll question?

I will volunteer to help setup the list. And if I have to filibuster until 2012, Daryn Colledge will be on that list.

[Fritz]

Let me, too, make a suggestion: someone with some real internet know-how might be able to dig up embarrassing pictures of each player. Say, like Plaxico Burress shooting himself in the leg. Brent Favre's cockshot. The infamous photoshopped Rats pic of Justin Harrell pulling a Najeh Davenport. Rex Grossman taking it in the backside from KGB.

If we're gonna have pictures, let's have pictures!

[3irty1]

When I said action shots I meant anything that isn't the mugshots they use for nfl,espn,cbssports,si, etc. When I created the QB demo on my personal site I ran a bash script to resize, recolor(to web optimize), and convert them all to png. As long as we keep an aspect ratio, this might not be that bad.

I'm with PBmax that the criteria should be "Who is currently better at football?" where upside, career, contract, and position are not taken into account. Basically if Madden ratings were real, who's would be higher?

Mad, I won't need jquery afterall, id did it all with php. Does the software you use have a wrapper type feature like Joomla had? If not it would be nice to have the header.php, footer.php, and corresponding .css file so that when this is done it can be fully integrated into the site with links to the forum and such because I think this will get a lot of traffic to the site.

[3irty1]

For anyone who is interested, I've had a few dozen people come to my site so far today. This is the current QB rankings:

1) Tom Brady
2) Ben Roethlisberger
3) Aaron Rodgers
4) Peyton Manning
5) Philip Rivers
6) Matt Ryan
7) Josh Freeman
8) Jay Cutler
9) Matt Hasselbeck
10) Tony Romo
11) Drew Brees
12) Joe Flacco
13) Michael Vick
14) Jason Campbell
15) David Garrard
16) Matt Schaub
17) Donovan Mcnabb
18) Kyle Orton
19) Matt Cassel
20) Carson Palmer
21) Eli Manning
22) Matthew Stafford
23) Sam Bradford
24) Colt Mccoy
25) Brett Favre
26) Kevin Kolb
27) Mark Sanchez
28) Vince Young
29) Kerry Collins
30) Alex Smith
31) Jimmy Clausen
32) Rex Grossman
33) Tim Tebow
34) Chad Henne
35) Ryan Fitzpatrick
36) Derek Anderson

[Smidgeon]

I already think those rankings--despite the small sample size--are more accurate than the players'. I would have put Flacco, Brees, and Schaub higher and Roethlisberger, Hasselbeck, Campbell, and Harrard lower.

A suggestion. Instead of having an "either/or" option, have a third option for "Don't Know/Too Close to Call". That way people who really don't know that much about one of the players (say, a defensive lineman from Buffalo) wouldn't be forced to penalize them for not being recognized.

[3irty1]

After this is implemented we're clearly going to start ranking everything this way from "PR poster power rankings" to "Best breakfast cereal."

[MadtownPacker]

When I said action shots I meant anything that isn't the mugshots they use for nfl,espn,cbssports,si, etc. When I created the QB demo on my personal site I ran a bash script to resize, recolor(to web optimize), and convert them all to png. As long as we keep an aspect ratio, this might not be that bad.

I'm with PBmax that the criteria should be "Who is currently better at football?" where upside, career, contract, and position are not taken into account. Basically if Madden ratings were real, who's would be higher?

Mad, I won't need jquery afterall, id did it all with php. Does the software you use have a wrapper type feature like Joomla had? If not it would be nice to have the header.php, footer.php, and corresponding .css file so that when this is done it can be fully integrated into the site with links to the forum and such because I think this will get a lot of traffic to the site.We should be able to have it on the site with the VBulletin. PM me with what you need to make it happen.

[Partial]

The QB rankings are actually pretty damn cool. The pics could afford to be a little bigger so as to avoid the cropping issue. Also, the focus/zoom could be a little greater. It's pretty cool.

What is the algorithm? Straight up one point per click where #1 has the most clicks? Any weighting for the winner factoring in the ranking of who the beat out? etc

[SkinBasket]

For anyone who is interested, I've had a few dozen people come to my site so far today. This is the current QB rankings:

How does one find this site? Isn't going to be here?

[3irty1]

The QB rankings are actually pretty damn cool. The pics could afford to be a little bigger so as to avoid the cropping issue. Also, the focus/zoom could be a little greater. It's pretty cool.

What is the algorithm? Straight up one point per click where #1 has the most clicks? Any weighting for the winner factoring in the ranking of who the beat out? etc

What browser did you use?

Its way more complex than that. Here's the Elo rating wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system. Arpad Elo was actually a physics professor at Marquette!

[3irty1]

How does one find this site? Isn't going to be here?

PM sent

[Partial]

What browser did you use?

Safari 5.1 on Mac OS 10.7

One could rationalize that this equation would be a good way to judge over all talent in the NFL, yes? As in, the winner and losses are updated each week to form very accurate power rankings. You should give that a whirl. Let's make some money!!!

[3irty1]

Safari 5.1 on Mac OS 10.7

One could rationalize that this equation would be a good way to judge over all talent in the NFL, yes? As in, the winner and losses are updated each week to form very accurate power rankings. You should give that a whirl. Let's make some money!!!

I haven't tested my shit in safari at all as I'm on linux. Safari is the bleeding edge browser when it comes to css3 animation so maybe it looks weird. I'll check it on the roommates mac tomorrow.

Maybe I'll try that this year as an experiment and keep the record here.