Jermichael Finley's recent tweet and TT drafting of 2 TE's

[GoPackGo]

—Tight end Jermichael Finley suffered a knee injury last October that cost him the rest of the season, but Finley said he is now running routes for the first time.

On Twitter, Finley wrote, "Today was the first time since Week 5 that I caught a ball & ran routes. An my my my I look good."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
who does this remind you of?
Terrel Owens-"I love me some me."


maybe, just maybe Ted Thompson can see that Jermichael Finley is on the verge of turning into a Terrel Owens-esque cancer and was actually planning for a Finley-less Packers team down the road by drafting 2 more TE's.

thoughts?

[Tony Oday]

It seems, and I hate punks like him usually, is that he is a pompous ass for the public but is an actual team player.

[RashanGary]

I thought the same thing. I really don't think it's much more than taking the best guy, but I could see them not considering Finley a sure bet to be here long term. He could easily go Johnny Jolly or TO or Randy Moss on us.

[Tarlam!]

It's definitely insurance or a message or both. Finley is a superstar. TT builds teams. If the superstar wants to work within a team framework, all will be good. If not, TT will allow him to leave.

BTW, this was my knee jerk thought when the draft went down.

[SkinBasket]

I felt we drafted a TE who projects more to a fullback/H back with more offensive skills than Hall, and another who can contribute to ST. If Finley perceives either as a threat, he has some self confidence issues, which I don't think he does.

[get louder at lambeau]

JermichaelF88 (twitter)
Huge TE room this year I love it..
16 hours ago

I don't think it's smart to EVER have to count on one guy too much. Especially one guy who has never played a full season, seems to be egotistical, and is a FA after the season.

[Patler]

The Packers have to plan to be without Finley.

Depending on the CBA, he could be a FA next year. An absurd deal from someone else could take him away.
He has been injured often enough that he can't really be counted on for 16 games a season, yet.
His surgery had complications. It could diminish his abilities permanently, somewhat; or at least for next season as he recovers.
He has said some things that make you wonder which direction his ego will go, and if he will be a good fit for the Packers long term.
With all the other passing options, he might not be content with his share of targeted passes in GB, and he might look for a larger role elsewhere.

When you start generating a lengthy list of possible concerns, even if none is an over whelming concern on its own, the shear number necessitates planning for alternatives.

[Bretsky]

Has TT let a star go at Finley's young age ?

[channtheman]

We won a Super Bowl without this guy. I would love for him to be a team player and stay in Green Bay but if he leaves, it's not the end of the world.

[Brandon494]

I felt we drafted a TE who projects more to a fullback/H back with more offensive skills than Hall, and another who can contribute to ST. If Finley perceives either as a threat, he has some self confidence issues, which I don't think he does.

Wow I actually agree with skin

Finley is a top 5 TE in the league and you guys think taking a TE in the 5th and 6th round somehow means TT is trying to replace him? It's known Finley isn't the smartest guy but stop comparing him to TO and Moss just because he's excited about getting back on the field since his injury. After Finley our TEs arent even that good! Lee is old, I never did see what some saw in Quarles, and Crabtree is just a guy. Finley is going to remain a Packer for awhile.

[Tarlam!]

Has TT let a star go at Finley's young age ?

Um, Walker?

[Patler]

Has TT let a star go at Finley's young age ?

No, he hasn't; but he hasn't had one yet with the same combination of factors (high performance potential + significant injury history + possible ego for a blockbuster contract, etc.). Nor was he previously in a situation in which he had a lot of young stars who will need new contracts in the next few years. The Packers could very well be entering a period in which they will be unable to keep all their stars, just as they did under Wolf. Good players offered huge contracts in free agency might have to be let go.

I'm sure they will do what they can to keep Finley, but if he decides to roll the dice in free agency, someone could offer a deal beyond his value to the Packers.

[Tarlam!]

Finley is a top 5 TE

Can you name 4 better TE's? I can't.

[ThunderDan]

No, he hasn't; but he hasn't had one yet with the same combination of factors (high performance potential + significant injury history + possible ego for a blockbuster contract, etc.). Nor was he previously in a situation in which he had a lot of young stars who will need new contracts in the next few years. The Packers could very well be entering a period in which they will be unable to keep all their stars, just as they did under Wolf. Good players offered huge contracts in free agency might have to be let go.

I'm sure they will do what they can to keep Finley, but if he decides to roll the dice in free agency, someone could offer a deal beyond his value to the Packers.

I think JF will be extended somewhere beween week 3-6 of this season. TT will not let someone of JF's talent go unless his knee isn't right or he turns into a complete cancer.

[ThunderDan]

Um, Walker?

Different situation as of right now. JF has shown up every year. Walker wanted a new contract and wouldn't play without one. It was either trade him or watch him sitting on the sidelines.

[Tarlam!]

high performance potential + significant injury history + possible ego for a blockbuster contract, etc.

Javon Walker

[Tarlam!]

Different situation as of right now. JF has shown up every year. Walker wanted a new contract and wouldn't play without one. It was either trade him or watch him sitting on the sidelines.

True to a point. Walker had a breakout year without injury. finley han't manned the barricades. Apart from that, it's similar.

[Patler]

Wow I actually agree with skin

Finley is a top 5 TE in the league and you guys think taking a TE in the 5th and 6th round somehow means TT is trying to replace him? It's known Finley isn't the smartest guy but stop comparing him to TO and Moss just because he's excited about getting back on the field since his injury. After Finley our TEs arent even that good! Lee is old, I never did see what some saw in Quarles, and Crabtree is just a guy. Finley is going to remain a Packer for awhile.

Lee has already been released.

I think calling Finley a "top 5 TE" is premature. He could become one, but has to show he can stay healthy first. He might be a guy who misses games every year, and never has quite the career anyone hopes. The Packers might have concerns about his knee, which had complications and required follow-up surgery for an infection. There are question marks about Finley, not huge ones, but several.

[ThunderDan]

True to a point. Walker had a breakout year without injury. finley han't manned the barricades. Apart from that, it's similar.

No they really aren't. Until JF doesn't show up and demands a new contract or he won't play they are different.

We are projecting our own biases into the JF situation. I have always thought that actions speak louder than words. JF has always been there.

It's not JF issue that D Lee fumbles the ball and someone runs straight into his knee as JF tries to make a tackle.

[Tony Oday]

Finley will be kept in check by GJ, AR and DD on offense. He knows that if he stays with AR he will get the ball, win games, and at 30 get a MONSTER deal with Washington...this is the new plans for GB players ;)

[Brandon494]

Exactly, you don't let go of players with the talent this guy has and most of all our star QB has a great relationship with him.

[gbgary]

no problem with fin's tweet. trying to turn him into a cancer, like owen, from that is silly. and it's not a message to fin, it's a message to the other tight ends. tt is just trying to build the best team he can.

[Lurker64]

I felt we drafted a TE who projects more to a fullback/H back with more offensive skills than Hall, and another who can contribute to ST. If Finley perceives either as a threat, he has some self confidence issues, which I don't think he does.

Yeah, the people to be worried about he drafting additional TEs are the tight ends on the roster who are not named Jermichael. Since Quarless and Crabtree will have to compete for their jobs. Jermichael Finley thinking that DJ Williams will take his roster spot is like Greg Jennings thinking Randall Cobb will take his roster spot.

Correspondingly, the only person who should be nervous about Alex Green is Dmitri Nance.

[Patler]

Exactly, you don't let go of players with the talent this guy has and most of all our star QB has a great relationship with him.

I don't think they will want to let him go anymore than the Brewers will want to let Prince Fielder leave. In order to sign Finley to an extension during the season, he will want to forgo free agency. If he wants to test his value as a FA, he very well could be offered a contract that the Packers will deem too rich for their cap (assuming we again have one).

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Wolf had to let a lot of very good players leave because he just could not afford to keep them all. Wolf let guys go who were and became pro-bowl players and one who became a DPOY. It really is a good problem to have, although it can be frustrating for the fans at times.

If the Packers can retain 4 WRs like they have had the last three years, and if Quarless or another TE proves to be a legitimate receiving option even if not as good as Finley, Finley might be deemed more expendable than someone else at a position of less strength.

Salary cap wise, the Packers could find themselves in a situation where they can afford to keep only two of Sitton, Finley and Nelson. They could decide that Finley is the least key performer. After all, as others mentioned, they did just fine without him in 2010.

[Lurker64]

I don't think they will want to let him go anymore than the Brewers will want to let Prince Fielder leave. In order to sign Finley to an extension during the season, he will want to forgo free agency. If he wants to test his value as a FA, he very well could be offered a contract that the Packers will deem too rich for their cap (assuming we again have one).

I think that the key difference here is that Finley potentially faces a franchise tag designation immediately in his contract year. It's not certain that the franchise tag will exist in the new CBA, but since the alternative involves "Peyton Manning becoming a free agent immediately" I'm pretty sure the NFL is going to fight for one. The TE Tag number is always modest. Finley seems like the classic "tag, then extend during the season" kind of player, at least in terms of his role on the team and production to this point. I never want to have to predict how he's going to act.

[Patler]

Yeah, the people to be worried about he drafting additional TEs are the tight ends on the roster who are not named Jermichael. Since Quarless and Crabtree will have to compete for their jobs. Jermichael Finley thinking that DJ Williams will take his roster spot is like Greg Jennings thinking Randall Cobb will take his roster spot.

Correspondingly, the only person who should be nervous about Alex Green is Dmitri Nance.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Finley has to be worried about his spot this year, but stockpiling players at TE could unearth enough talent to make Finley expendable when his contract expires, in favor of retaining others.

[Patler]

I think that the key difference here is that Finley potentially faces a franchise tag designation immediately in his contract year. It's not certain that the franchise tag will exist in the new CBA, but since the alternative involves "Peyton Manning becoming a free agent immediately" I'm pretty sure the NFL is going to fight for one. The TE Tag number is always modest. Finley seems like the classic "tag, then extend during the season" kind of player, at least in terms of his role on the team and production to this point. I never want to have to predict how he's going to act.

That's certainly possible, but I think the next three years could be expensive ones for the Packers. It won't be long before Rodgers will have fallen so far behind the top QBs that they will have to do something with his contract again. Sitton and Nelson will be due with Finley. Then Matthews and Raji. There will probably be others who surprise us with their performances and will earn contracts we don't anticipate (Shields, another LB, Neal or Wilson). It will go on and on, and at sometime they will lose someone they would like to keep.

Who knows, maybe it will be Sitton they let go, if Newhouse, McDonald and Lang come on. Wolf let Timmerman go when it looked like he had able replacements.

[Brandon494]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Finley has to be worried about his spot this year, but stockpiling players at TE could unearth enough talent to make Finley expendable when his contract expires, in favor of retaining others.

Of maybe MM saw something he liked with the way NE were using TEs in their system. You do know this is a copy cat league after all and giving Rodgers more targets in the red zone should never be overlooked. I mean who do we really have behind Finley? Quarles has shown NOTHING except that he has no hands and trips over his own feet on routes and Crabtree who is just a guy. Not to mention that the two guys drafted are also projected to be fullback/H back type players like Chris Cooley.

[Brandon494]

That's certainly possible, but I think the next three years could be expensive ones for the Packers. It won't be long before Rodgers will have fallen so far behind the top QBs that they will have to do something with his contract again. Sitton and Nelson will be due with Finley. Then Matthews and Raji. There will probably be others who surprise us with their performances and will earn contracts we don't anticipate (Shields, another LB, Neal or Wilson). It will go on and on, and at sometime they will lose someone they would like to keep.

Who knows, maybe it will be Sitton they let go, if Newhouse, McDonald and Lang come on. Wolf let Timmerman go when it looked like he had able replacements.

You also have to account for the contracts that will be taken off the books when its time to resign these players like Barnett, Grant, Clifton, Driver, and Woodson.

[Lurker64]

It is good to note the distinction between what Finley tweeted last year when Quarless was drafted ("why do we have need a TE?") and what he tweeted this year after we drafted two ("Huge TE room this year I love it.."). I think that shows personal growth.

[Patler]

You also have to account for the contracts that will be taken off the books when its time to resign these players like Barnett, Grant, Clifton, Driver, and Woodson.

I agree, but my point is still valid. As the roster gets better and better, the likelihood of having to let good players leave increases. It happens all over, and it is the way good teams stay good. They bring in cheap, quality young players and let selected expensive veterans leave. If the team really is one of the best in the league, it won't be able to keep everyone until they retire.

[Patler]

Of maybe MM saw something he liked with the way NE were using TEs in their system. You do know this is a copy cat league after all and giving Rodgers more targets in the red zone should never be overlooked. I mean who do we really have behind Finley? Quarles has shown NOTHING except that he has no hands and trips over his own feet on routes and Crabtree who is just a guy. Not to mention that the two guys drafted are also projected to be fullback/H back type players like Chris Cooley.

I'm sure he wants at least two legitimate pass-catching TEs. I just hope Quarless can improve from his 1st to his 2nd year like Finley did. Finley dropped too many and couldn't turn back for back-shoulder throws as a rookie, but had no problems his 2nd season. Unfortunately, the lockout will hurt guys like Quarless a lot.

[get louder at lambeau]

Of maybe MM saw something he liked with the way NE were using TEs in their system. You do know this is a copy cat league after all and giving Rodgers more targets in the red zone should never be overlooked. I mean who do we really have behind Finley? Quarles has shown NOTHING except that he has no hands and trips over his own feet on routes and Crabtree who is just a guy. Not to mention that the two guys drafted are also projected to be fullback/H back type players like Chris Cooley.

Exactly. Everyone seems to assume Quarless will learn to catch consistently this year and become Finely Jr., but until it actually happens he's very replaceable. Crabtree and Havner are the type of guys you should be trying to replace with more talented guys. Lee is gone.

Finley is the only "sure thing" and he hasn't even made it through 16 games yet in his career and is coming off a knee surgery with staph infection complications.

I don't see it as very surprising that they took two TEs in the draft. I was actually hoping for a TE in the first or second round, Kyle Rudolph. Damn Vikings got him.

[BobDobbs]

McCarthy, Philbin, and Rodgers love Finley. They are definitely going to want to keep him. TT will do it if he can afford it, but if it comes down to paying Finley or Raji/CMIII you have to go with those guys. Brandon makes a good point that a bunch of big contracts are going to come off of the books. And TT hasn't wanted to pay guards in the past, so maybe Sitton leaves.
We've got a corps of young superstars and they are going to be expensive we won't keep them all. It'll be interesting to see if TT's post championship plan is to do it like Indy and pay huge dollars to a few and then figure out the rest or do it like New England and keep trading guys and picks to have a steady supply of young guys coming through.

[RashanGary]

Finley is obviously an elite talent at TE or WR. He could play either and be a probowler at either.

The problems with Finley are not his talent. The problems with Finley are (resummarizing Patlers points):

1. He's coming of a major knee injury. Who knows how well he comes back
2. I don't know if it's him demanding the ball, but the offense often forced balls to Finley and uncharacteristic interceptions and incompletions happened when throwing his way in double and triple coverage.
3. The offense was more than fine without him
4. He's said some bone head things that make you think he knew more than Rodgers when he was a rookie.
5. He's been known to hang out with VY and when he switched agents there were stories about one agent trying to keep him away from the trouble he seemed to seek out


There are any number of possible things that could develop that would cause a person to not want to sacrifice other star players salaries for Finley, starting with the biggest one, they can win championships without him.

I want him around. I own one jersey. It's a Finley. He's my favorite player because of how tough and competitive his is on the field. I want him to work out really badly and I want him to be the greatest Packer TE I've ever watched. It's not a guarantee.

DJ Williams could be a great 2nd TE who can stretch the field and give versatility to our already multiple offense. Or. . . . he could end up being our starting TE because JF blew up and went to jail or stopped working out or had a drug charge or didn't come back from his knee injury or went complete primadonna.

I love Finley the player, but honestly, who has any clue what that guys is going to do with his life? He reeks of instability.

[mraynrand]

I'm not going to worry about Finley until he has a press conference while doing crunches.

[Smeefers]

Can you name 4 better TE's? I can't.

Last year Quarless was waaay better than Finley. Gotta be on the field to play and if you can't do that, you ain't no good.

Seriously though, I'd say Clark, Witton, Gates, Davis and Lewis are better right now. I have to frame my opinion though, I truly believe if Finley ever gets a full year under his boat, he's going to blow the water out of the competition and he'll be the hands down number one scariest TE in the league, if not receiver. He stays healthy, I think he has numbers that compete with Andre Johnson and is as terrifying as Calvin Johnson. I just have to see it from him. He has to stay healthy. If he can't do that, he's not worth anything and definitely not a top TE.

[swede]

Wow I actually agree with skin

Finley is a top 5 TE in the league and you guys think taking a TE in the 5th and 6th round somehow means TT is trying to replace him? It's known Finley isn't the smartest guy but stop comparing him to TO and Moss just because he's excited about getting back on the field since his injury. After Finley our TEs arent even that good! Lee is old, I never did see what some saw in Quarles, and Crabtree is just a guy. Finley is going to remain a Packer for awhile.

I think this is correct.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Finley sticks around. Thompson has shown he doesn't let guys like Finley go. He came out raw, but when the bell went off, it went off in a big way. 27 receptions for 460 yards in his last 5 games before his injury. You can watch him and now that he had become a top 5 TE in the league. His pass catching skill is elite. He's turned himself into a willing, if not always able, blocker. Now, he just needs to get healthy. As far as Williams and Taylor, Williams is more of a threat to the backup TEs and FBs. Taylor is a long shot to make the team.

[prime311]

Here's my thought. Finley = Shockey Awesome, confident, cocky, and on IR while his team wins a Super Bowl. Maybe it'll all come together for his sometime and somewhere like it did for Shockey in 2009 with NO, but there's no need to invest too many millions in a payer like that.

[prime311]

McCarthy, Philbin, and Rodgers love Finley. They are definitely going to want to keep him. TT will do it if he can afford it, but if it comes down to paying Finley or Raji/CMIII you have to go with those guys. Brandon makes a good point that a bunch of big contracts are going to come off of the books. And TT hasn't wanted to pay guards in the past, so maybe Sitton leaves.
We've got a corps of young superstars and they are going to be expensive we won't keep them all. It'll be interesting to see if TT's post championship plan is to do it like Indy and pay huge dollars to a few and then figure out the rest or do it like New England and keep trading guys and picks to have a steady supply of young guys coming through.


I'm going to give a big hell no to that. Thompson (smartly) refused to shell out QB like money for an aging Wahle and big dollars for a quickly diminishing Rivera. Thus far he has refused to give a big extension to the inconsistent Colledge. I will all but guarantee that a young, dominant home grown guard like Sitton gets a big extension. He is exactly the type of player that Thompson signs long term.

[Tarlam!]

What you say is true, prime311. They did win the big Dance without him - and a bunch of other guys. No one saw it coming. It was somehow freaky. I don't know how often that kind of freaky happens. I believe the Giants had that type of season when they won. Look what they've done since.

For that reason, I think TT and M3 do their utmost to keep Finley. He is good whn he's on the paddock.

PS: You mention Shockey, but I believe he was missing from the Giants lineup or was that your point?

[pbmax]

snip...
5. He's been known to hang out with VY and when he switched agents there were stories about one agent trying to keep him away from the trouble he seemed to seek out


Finley: The Right Route (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/93864379.html)

Yes, but the #5 story is old and no longer the case. He did switch back to Major Adams in the Spring of 2010, but after a month in Austin realized his mistake when Adams had nothing planned for him. He is back with the respected agent, the one who insisted he make amends with the Packers staff after the trip to Austin.

I think we are making a mountain out of a Twitter molehill. Finley has been in exactly zero serious jams. A bad agent choice (twice) which has been corrected and shooting his mouth off once about the QB and once about a photo. He behaves like Steve Largent compared to TO, Ochocinco or Moss.

There are only two questions: can he stay healthy? and if he does and he hits his stride mid-season, can the Packers convince him to sign before FA.

[prime311]

What you say is true, prime311. They did win the big Dance without him - and a bunch of other guys. No one saw it coming. It was somehow freaky. I don't know how often that kind of freaky happens. I believe the Giants had that type of season when they won. Look what they've done since.

For that reason, I think TT and M3 do their utmost to keep Finley. He is good whn he's on the paddock.

PS: You mention Shockey, but I believe he was missing from the Giants lineup or was that your point?

Ya that was my point with Shockey, as good as he was he is always injured and is a negative in the locker room. He eventually was traded to the Saints. While I agree the Giants have not done much since, I think that has a lot more to do with the play of the defense after Steve Spagnuolo left then the offense. Shockeys replacement, Kevin Boss, has been pretty good and at a fraction of the cost with none of the locker room drama.

[Tarlam!]

There are only two questions: can he stay healthy? and if he does and he hits his stride mid-season, can the Packers convince him to sign before FA.

This. IMHO, you nailed it with this.

[get louder at lambeau]

I think we are making a mountain out of a Twitter molehill. Finley has been in exactly zero serious jams. A bad agent choice (twice) which has been corrected and shooting his mouth off once about the QB and once about a photo. He behaves like Steve Largent compared to TO, Ochocinco or Moss.

T.O. and Ochocinco used to be just like Finley. They had normal names and were normal, hard working, talented receivers with big egos. They became what they are later in their careers. You're glossing over some of Finley's drama, too-


The truth is, Finley was late for about a half-dozen meetings in '09, and he missed curfew the night before the playoff loss to the Arizona Cardinals.

"I walked on the floor, and it was like the FBI looking for me," recalled Finley, who went out the next night and set a franchise playoff record with 159 receiving yards on six catches.

"Just being that young buck, thinking he's all that."

During training camp last summer he left the dorms without permission to sleep in his own bed about 3 miles away.

"(I) was doing my own thing, wanted to take a little break, and they caught on to that," Finley said. "And that was a big, big loss coming into the '09 season. I had that on my back, so I had to come out and play.

"Just being foolish. All the coaches knew. Everybody knew."

Finley also wasn't always straight with the Packers about the reasons for his slipups.

"I'm just one of those people who doesn't tell everybody what I'm doing, so I just tell them what they want to hear," he said. "I was that person."

No one thinks Finley IS T.O. right now. The worry is that he has shown some of the warning signs that he MIGHT BECOME T.O. someday. Even his agent didn't want to take him back, and avoided his calls for more than a week. This from an agent who stands to make 3% of Finley's next contract. That could be near a million dollars if/when Finley gets a long term contract. The guy must be a HUGE pain in the ass for an agent to not want to make that kind of money off him.

[BobDobbs]

I'm going to give a big hell no to that. Thompson (smartly) refused to shell out QB like money for an aging Wahle and big dollars for a quickly diminishing Rivera. Thus far he has refused to give a big extension to the inconsistent Colledge. I will all but guarantee that a young, dominant home grown guard like Sitton gets a big extension. He is exactly the type of player that Thompson signs long term.

Right at first glance it seems like a no brainer. Keep your guy in house and keep the offensive line solid. And that may well happen. To understand my reasoning you have to look at the larger pattern. The reason I don't think that TT feels that Guard is a priority position is not because he didn't resign Wahle or Rivera. I don't think he could have if he wanted to because of where the cap was. It's how he dealt with filling those positions afterwards.

There was the failed Will Whitaker and who ever the other guy was experiment. He basically tried to fill those positions with crappy free agents and mid round picks. I think Colledge was a two, but everyone else in the interior line is a mid round draft pick or street free agent. Look at Tackle where he has kept Clifton and Tauscher in the money and then spent two consecutive first round picks. He's not messing around there.

Successful drafting means a team ends up with more talented veterans than it can pay. He might let Sitton go if he doesn't want to sign a cap friendly deal in order to have the money to sign Finley and then CMIII and Raji the next year.

There's a reason Guards are cheaper than Tackles. They are easier to find and not as important to the success of our football team. Unlike Tight Ends which you build a dynasty around.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Finley: The Right Route (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/93864379.html)

Good article. Not sure how I missed that.


"Green Bay without a doubt is where I want to be, a great town to raise a family for sure, and the fans here are way better than I've ever had. I can see myself here for a long, long time."

"I want fans to feel they can trust me and believe in me," Finley said. "The young, immature Finley, I thought he was foolish. And the new Finley, I think is going to do the work, do what he's supposed to do and be that player the Packers know I can be and all the fans out there too.

[RashanGary]

T.O. and Ochocinco used to be just like Finley. They had normal names and were normal, hard working, talented receivers with big egos. They became what they are later in their careers. You're glossing over some of Finley's drama, too-

Exactly.




No one thinks Finley IS T.O. right now. The worry is that he has shown some of the warning signs that he MIGHT BECOME T.O. someday. Even his agent didn't want to take him back, and avoided his calls for more than a week. This from an agent who stands to make 3% of Finley's next contract. That could be near a million dollars if/when Finley gets a long term contract. The guy must be a HUGE pain in the ass for an agent to not want to make that kind of money off him.

Red flag.




He has drama blow-up potential. No doubt. It's much more than Jennings, Rodgers or Matthews. Much, much more.

I actually feel less comfortable about him after that article. It all tied together like he had his stuff together, but when you read it, it's a bunch of scary actions followed by some empty words.

"I used to tell people what they wanted to hear, but now I"m telling you the truth." "I used to be irresponsible but now I'm telling you I'm responsible, even though I haven't proved it for even a day." "my agent refuses to work with me because he doesn't trust me."

I'm hoping for the best though. He's an elite talent. I just can't bury my head in the sand on his personality profile. He looks like an irresponsible guy (2 kids in college, agent refusing to work with him, hanging out with VY, skipping team meetings, breaking team rules) who wants to get a big contract from the team who owns his rights, "Green bay is the place I want to be, I want to be here for a long time."


I'm not saying he won't be fine. I'm saying there are red flags to go along with his injury concern.


If Matthews is a 9.9 out of 10 likelyhood to get a big 2nd deal from us, Finley is like a 7. He's 70% because he meets 100% of the talent, gets docked 5% for the injury and 25% for his irresponsible, untrustworthy personality.

[Tarlam!]

Have we forgotten that the Barnetts and the Finleys are an item? Rodgers' sucking his dick publicly is nice and all, but Finley is a brother. Nick is as good as gone. That's a huge red flag. I know Brandon is gonna call me a racist, but I'm not. I'm just an observer.

[mraynrand]

"I want fans to feel they can trust me and believe in me," Finley said. "The young, immature Finley, I thought he was foolish. And the new Finley, I think is going to do the work, do what he's supposed to do and be that player the Packers know I can be and all the fans out there too."

The Packers would be unbeatable with both Finleys on the team.

[prime311]

Coincidence or telling statistic?

Finley has 4 100 yard receiving games in his career. 3 of them are losses. The 1 win was a blowout against a terrible Buffalo team.


I like Finley. He is an outstanding player that is exciting on offense and creates major matchup problems. But the excitement about Finley as a player that is fun to watch has not translated to overall offensive success. If I'm a GM with X dollars to spend and a player like Finley who is a potential locker room blowup head case and has injury problems and will likely command Wide Receiver type dollars then I spend my dollars elsewhere.

[prime311]

Right at first glance it seems like a no brainer. Keep your guy in house and keep the offensive line solid. And that may well happen. To understand my reasoning you have to look at the larger pattern. The reason I don't think that TT feels that Guard is a priority position is not because he didn't resign Wahle or Rivera. I don't think he could have if he wanted to because of where the cap was. It's how he dealt with filling those positions afterwards.

There was the failed Will Whitaker and who ever the other guy was experiment. He basically tried to fill those positions with crappy free agents and mid round picks. I think Colledge was a two, but everyone else in the interior line is a mid round draft pick or street free agent. Look at Tackle where he has kept Clifton and Tauscher in the money and then spent two consecutive first round picks. He's not messing around there.

Successful drafting means a team ends up with more talented veterans than it can pay. He might let Sitton go if he doesn't want to sign a cap friendly deal in order to have the money to sign Finley and then CMIII and Raji the next year.

There's a reason Guards are cheaper than Tackles. They are easier to find and not as important to the success of our football team. Unlike Tight Ends which you build a dynasty around.

Not that I disagree about the value of Tackles over Guards, but I'm trusting past history here. Thompson rewards young talent regardless of position and isn't afraid to pay them top dollar for someone at their position. Or to put it succinctly, name the last young and successful Green Bay player at any position that Thompson has let walk in Free Agency. Don't feel bad when you can't think of any.

[pbmax]

Coincidence or telling statistic?

Finley has 4 100 yard receiving games in his career. 3 of them are losses. The 1 win was a blowout against a terrible Buffalo team.


I like Finley. He is an outstanding player that is exciting on offense and creates major matchup problems. But the excitement about Finley as a player that is fun to watch has not translated to overall offensive success. If I'm a GM with X dollars to spend and a player like Finley who is a potential locker room blowup head case and has injury problems and will likely command Wide Receiver type dollars then I spend my dollars elsewhere.

Its neither; its called small sample size.

[prime311]

Its neither; its called small sample size.


Well wouldn't that make coincidence? ;)

[HarveyWallbangers]

How many 100 yard receiving games have we had out of our TEs in team history? Finley's had 3 of them in his last 5 games. I'd hardly blame Finley for the losses. We scored 45 points in one of the games. It's not his fault the defense was sieve-like. In another game, James Jones fumbled late and gifted the game away to the Bears. In the other game, we got sacked 8 times, so perhaps we should have went to Finley underneath more--instead of trying to force the ball down the field.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In eight seasons, Paul Coffman had six career 100 yard receiving games. The Packers went 1-4-1 in those 6 games.

[mraynrand]

Well wouldn't that make coincidence? ;)


Coincident/correlation does not necessarily mean causation. It is a trend :wink:

[mraynrand]

In eight seasons, Paul Coffman had six career 100 yard receiving games. The Packers went 1-4-1 in those 6 games.

Paul Coffman is glad you are not his agent!

[pbmax]

T.O. and Ochocinco used to be just like Finley. They had normal names and were normal, hard working, talented receivers with big egos. They became what they are later in their careers. You're glossing over some of Finley's drama, too-



No one thinks Finley IS T.O. right now. The worry is that he has shown some of the warning signs that he MIGHT BECOME T.O. someday. Even his agent didn't want to take him back, and avoided his calls for more than a week. This from an agent who stands to make 3% of Finley's next contract. That could be near a million dollars if/when Finley gets a long term contract. The guy must be a HUGE pain in the ass for an agent to not want to make that kind of money off him.

Except that in the chronology of both TO and Ochocinco, each started off relatively harmless and then went south. They were possibly the best player on the team, but with fading franchises, troubles with the League, contract squabbles, QBs injured or limited, etc. Finley seems headed in the opposite direction. Everything is on the uptick except his health. And as good as he is, he is not the best player on the team (not yet anyway).

Think about his year. Without him, the team won a Super Bowl. A bit more humbling than the accommodating treatment the 49ers and Bengals gave their prima donnas.

If his worst offenses going forward are similar to complaining about team picture timing (which puts him on par with Barnett - whose lead he seemed to follow), I am really unconcerned. While Barnett may not have been everything you ever wanted in a MLB, he was a good teammate and fit for Green Bay even if he wasn't low key like most of his teammates.

Like a lot of modern athletes, he seems to want to succeed across the board, be a good teammate, popular, perhaps cash in on commercials, TV, etc. And while that kind of diversity of priorities would get you docked in draft evaluations, its makes for a pretty motivated and conscientious teammate. Similar to the OLB with a shampoo deal.

[Zool]

Holy fuck people. Didnt everyone love Finley through week 4 last year? What's happened between then and now?

God I hate the offseason.

[prime311]

How about this one? When you talk about elite, game changing Tight Ends of the last 10-15 year 2 stick out. Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez. Neither have even been to the Super Bowl. Hell Gonzalez has never even won a playoff game. What else do these 2 guys have in common? When they dominate the receivers become an afterthought. You could say the same thing about Todd Heap and Jeremy Shockey during their peaks. Now there are a handful of 2nd tier Tight Ends that are solid-good and long time veterans. Heath Miller and Dallas Clark are both Super Bowl winners. Shockey didnt get to the Super Bowl until he was on decline as a role player on NO. Other top Tight Ends that haven't seen a Super Bowl are Alge Crumpler and Chris Cooley. Having a good pass catching Tight End is an unnecessary luxury, and I'd go so far as to say that having a stats heavy tight end is a negative because it takes opportunities away from your wide receivers. You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe to find a TE that was truly a impact player that didn't detract from the offense around him, and thats because he was a complete player. The only guy that comes close to being a complete tight end but has never been to a super bowl is Jason Witten.

Now you see the same thing on the Packers. Beginning of 2010 the Packers featured Finley prominently. Yet the offense struggled with inconsistency. As the year progressed and after Finley went down, the Packers seemed to rediscover Greg Jennings and their big receiver packages. Having an elite tight end just doesn't matter in the end. All you need is a solid tight end that understands their role and doesn't take away opportunities from the other downfield receivers.

[SkinBasket]

Holy fuck people. Didnt everyone love Finley through week 4 last year? What's happened between then and now?

The season was also over after we lost to Atlanta, then heaven was dead after we lost to Detroit. Some things are healed by time, others are deteriorated. Like brains.

[mraynrand]

Holy fuck people. Didnt everyone love Finley through week 4 last year? What's happened between then and now?

God I hate the offseason.

A few tweets and some Chinese food ordered from an igloo and your whole rep is shot, apparently. I can't wait to see Finley back on the field, assuming of course there is a field to play on...

[prime311]

I still love watching Finley play. I just can't stand 2 things:

1. I hate the hype surrounding him. Used properly he is a decoy and should only expect big games versus certain types of defenses. He gives our offense versatility which should lead to better offensive consistency, but this doesnt work when he is being targeted a lot every game.

2. I really hate his attitude. He expects to get 1500+ yards in a season? This is the last thing you want your tight end caring about. See Gonzales and Gates. Big tight end production almost always equates to poor wide receiver production.

[RashanGary]

I think everyone still loves Finely, just think he has a higher than usual chance of going TOcho on us. PB made a good point with him not being the best player on our team and winning the SB without him being humbling. Good point. Another thing we have going is McCarthy. He seems to be an excellent people person and ego manager. I think he could handle one primadonna TE.

It's still something you have to mention with Finley. His personality is part of the package.

No sky is falling, no team is crumbling, although that's a fun way to frame it. We're simply saying, he has some irresponsibility red flags in his recent past and a major knee injury. Both are simply facts, nothing to blow up, exaggerate or cut anyone for.

I know I'm pulling for the guy. Just bought his Jersey in January. I'm one of his biggest fans. I think we're all in agreement that he's a special talent and can't wait to see him play again. The people who think he has a character risk love his talent. The people who think he has no character risk love his talent.

The people who think he has no character risk, just don't mistake anyone else for guaranteeing is implosion. We think it's more likely than average but still not likely. More than likely he dances on the line if acceptable and has a great career. There are a few red flags though, so we're talking about them.

[swede]

I think everyone still loves Finely, just think he has a higher than usual chance of going TOcho on us.

Did you coin that?

Nice.

[Freak Out]

I don't give a damn what he tweets about as long as he shows up to play.

[RashanGary]

Did you coin that?

Nice.

Nah :)

There is a TOcho show.

[swede]

Nah :)

There is a TOcho show.

Still...it is the wonderful power of language to say what needs to be said succinctly when someone declares that a formerly well-behaved receiver has gone TOcho.

[RashanGary]

I don't give a damn what he tweets about as long as he shows up to play.

Nobodies worried about his tweets. It's not showing up to meetings, being late for meetings, lying to coaches (telling them what they want to hear.)

In theory, having a piece of shit in your workplace should be pleasant and fun if he's performing, but in reality, one stinky terd kind of ruins the experience even if it is acting as the best book end you've ever had at your cube.

If the guy is a disingenuous liar, a sneak, irresponsible and arrogant. . . . it can have more of an impact than we might think.


I'm not saying he is anything, he just shows signs. I'm hoping it works out. I think it has a good chance of working out. I just can't bury my head in the sand and pretend I don't see the red flags. They're there, but time will tell if they get worse, mellow down or stay the same.

[RashanGary]

Still...it is the wonderful power of language to say what needs to be said succinctly when someone declares that a formerly well-behaved receiver has gone TOcho.

Yeah, it felt good when I wrote it :) I felt like it was a good tone setter for my counter point to skins sky is falling melodrama.

[HarveyWallbangers]

How about this one? When you talk about elite, game changing Tight Ends of the last 10-15 year 2 stick out. Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez. Neither have even been to the Super Bowl. Hell Gonzalez has never even won a playoff game. What else do these 2 guys have in common? When they dominate the receivers become an afterthought. You could say the same thing about Todd Heap and Jeremy Shockey during their peaks. Now there are a handful of 2nd tier Tight Ends that are solid-good and long time veterans. Heath Miller and Dallas Clark are both Super Bowl winners.

Dallas Clark is an elite TE. I think this is a silly correlation. Shannon Sharpe and Mark Bavaro have Super Bowl rings. I'd prefer we keep our elite talent at all positions, and see where the chips fall. Yes, Rodgers did go to Finley a tad much early last year, but it's hard to argue with the results. Finley was ridiculously productive per target. However, Driver is slowing down and Jones is likely gone. We are going to need Finley to get back to where he was at the beginning of last year.

[get louder at lambeau]

Except that in the chronology of both TO and Ochocinco, each started off relatively harmless and then went south. They were possibly the best player on the team, but with fading franchises, troubles with the League, contract squabbles, QBs injured or limited, etc. Finley seems headed in the opposite direction. Everything is on the uptick except his health. And as good as he is, he is not the best player on the team (not yet anyway).

Think about his year. Without him, the team won a Super Bowl. A bit more humbling than the accommodating treatment the 49ers and Bengals gave their prima donnas.

If his worst offenses going forward are similar to complaining about team picture timing (which puts him on par with Barnett - whose lead he seemed to follow), I am really unconcerned. While Barnett may not have been everything you ever wanted in a MLB, he was a good teammate and fit for Green Bay even if he wasn't low key like most of his teammates.

Like a lot of modern athletes, he seems to want to succeed across the board, be a good teammate, popular, perhaps cash in on commercials, TV, etc. And while that kind of diversity of priorities would get you docked in draft evaluations, its makes for a pretty motivated and conscientious teammate. Similar to the OLB with a shampoo deal.

So how do you know that you aren't just falling for the little lying trick that he has admitted to using since being a Packer?-
"I'm just one of those people who doesn't tell everybody what I'm doing, so I just tell them what they want to hear," he said.

His last problem behavior noted in that article was the night before the playoff game just over a year ago. Is it that he hasn't had any reported problems since then, except the twitter whining? Because I don't think any of us knew about a lot of the issues mentioned in that article before the article came out, so who knows if there have been any more recent minor problems with him?

If he has stayed out of trouble since January of last year, how amazing is that when he spent half that time recovering from two knee surgeries? How much trouble can you get in when you don't have to show up for work and you have a central line I.V. in your neck?

I'm just being the devil's advocate to the whole "he has matured" thing that people so badly want to believe. He wasn't anywhere NEAR mature as of just over a year ago. People don't usually just change overnight. Almost never. Maybe never. He might be maturing, or he might not be the kind of guy who ever really matures. I'm not buying the "Old Finley and New Finley" shit for a second. If we're lucky, he'll be the same Finley he ever was, but slightly more mature and professional as each year goes by.

[Bretsky]

Um, Walker?

that was kind of a trap question.........I thought somebody might note Walker....but isn't Finley still a few yrs younger than JW ? Meaning, more upside. I really liked JW, but I see Superstar power in Finley. Never thoght JW could be the best at his position and that may almost be possilble with Finley

[Brandon494]

Some of you guys need to get a fucking life. If a player isn't a damn boy scout on our team you instantly label him the next TO cuz hes a brother? Haha I can't wait to bring this topic up in a few years when Finleys the #1 TE in the league. I know it's the off season and all but stop making a big deal over nothing.

[Bretsky]

Exactly. Everyone seems to assume Quarless will learn to catch consistently this year and become Finely Jr., but until it actually happens he's very replaceable. Crabtree and Havner are the type of guys you should be trying to replace with more talented guys. Lee is gone.

Finley is the only "sure thing" and he hasn't even made it through 16 games yet in his career and is coming off a knee surgery with staph infection complications.

I don't see it as very surprising that they took two TEs in the draft. I was actually hoping for a TE in the first or second round, Kyle Rudolph. Damn Vikings got him.

gosh not me

Homerism aside, I don't see the upside in Quarless that I saw in Finley....not even close

[Scott Campbell]

If a player isn't a damn boy scout on our team you instantly label him the next TO cuz hes a brother?


Your race card is getting pretty dog eared.

[Brandon494]

I wasn't the who brought it up buddy

[Freak Out]

Cut him now. He is a cancer waiting to spread.

[get louder at lambeau]

I wasn't the who brought it up buddy

Who brought up Finley's race? Warren Moon?

[SkinBasket]

Yeah, it felt good when I wrote it :) I felt like it was a good tone setter for my counter point to skins sky is falling melodrama.

Uhhh.... what? I think you got me confused with the feeling of your mom going down on you, dummy.

[Lurker64]

Some of you guys need to get a fucking life. If a player isn't a damn boy scout on our team you instantly label him the next TO cuz hes a brother? Haha I can't wait to bring this topic up in a few years when Finleys the #1 TE in the league. I know it's the off season and all but stop making a big deal over nothing.

I'm not especially worried about Finley turning into T.O., but haven't "maturity issues" (things like "missing curfew the night before a playoff game", "lying to coaches", etc.) been one of the concerns about him ever since we drafted him? So I'm hoping that it literally is just a maturity thing and he'll get better as he grows up. But there has to be the concern, not the certainty but the concern, that he may always be a bit of a problem child.

[gbgary]

i can't believe this thread is still going. he says he's doing great and this is what it starts? you should read all his tweets. 75% of it is boring family stuff and "god is great" posts and the other 25% are posts about his diet and rehab workout. he mentions loving Green Bay and playing for the Packers once in a while and can't wait for the season to start. move along...there's nothing to see here.

[Guiness]

Gimme a break gbgary.

Draft is over, no season coming up, no minicamps, MM hasn't held a presser, Favre seems to be staying retired...

What the hell else do you want us to talk about here?:wink:

[Lurker64]

Mostly the problem as that we've seen in the past from guys like Javon Walker or Cletidus Hunt, one good season from a guy is no guarantee that he'll keep it up, guys can always go insane, get hurt, get lazy. Finley hasn't really given us a complete "good season" so while he certainly could become the greatest TE in history, there's a lot that falls into the "wait and see" camp.

Sure wish there was a new CBA in place, so we could be talking about OTAs...

[mraynrand]

Cut him now. He is a cancer waiting to spread.


I thought we didn't draft Mark Herzlich

[RashanGary]

Cut him now. He is a cancer waiting to spread.

Drama alert! Drama alert!

Where did anyone in this thread say cut him :) I believe there are two of us who are saying he shows some trouble signs, but even the two of us that are saying that, are also saying he's a great player and is probably going to be great.

Since we're talking about Finley, we brought up the facts about Finley. The only people saying, "cut him" are the people dramatizing and exaggerating other people's opinions.

[/thread]

[Tarlam!]

Who brought up Finley's race? Warren Moon?

That would be me. And I stand by it.

[Lurker64]

I thought we didn't draft Mark Herzlich

We didn't, and if we did we couldn't even cut him right now. Can't make player moves during a lockout.

[packers11]

u think finleys tweets are dumbs???

"“We’ll never know what really happened,” Mendenhall said. “I just have a hard time believing a plane could take a skyscraper down demolition style.”

Mendenhall also expresses sympathy for bin Laden. “What kind of person celebrates death?” Mendenhall says. “It’s amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We’ve only heard one side.”

[SkinBasket]

The only people saying, "cut him" are the people dramatizing and exaggerating other people's opinions.

[/thread]

You mean like you, you half a butt puppet?

Get your shit straight or shut the fuck up. Running around here like a retarded Partial squawking like a drunk vag fart.

[Tarlam!]

u think finleys tweets are dumbs???

"“We’ll never know what really happened,” Mendenhall said. “I just have a hard time believing a plane could take a skyscraper down demolition style.”

Mendenhall also expresses sympathy for bin Laden. “What kind of person celebrates death?” Mendenhall says. “It’s amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We’ve only heard one side.”

You know, I like the fact that he can say those things. I'm not sure he knows that if any tyrant government ruled in the USA he couldn't. But, what the heck. He entitled.

[SkinBasket]

You know, I like the fact that he can say those things. I'm not sure he knows that if any tyrant government ruled in the USA he couldn't. But, what the heck. He entitled.

You can like it, but it's indicative of a problem we have here, which is concerning to me, where fucking two-bit half-wit pieces of monkey shit like Mendenhall get their information from rap artists and conspiracy theory "reverends" in Cadillacs with vanity plates that read "GODS WIL." We have a problem of massive idiocy in this nation, and unfortunately, this is just one tiny, small fraction of it. I would, at this juncture celebrate Mendenhall's death, because it would make this world a better, smarter place.

[pbmax]

So how do you know that you aren't just falling for the little lying trick that he has admitted to using since being a Packer?-

...

I'm just being the devil's advocate to the whole "he has matured" thing that people so badly want to believe. He wasn't anywhere NEAR mature as of just over a year ago. People don't usually just change overnight. Almost never. Maybe never. He might be maturing, or he might not be the kind of guy who ever really matures. I'm not buying the "Old Finley and New Finley" shit for a second. If we're lucky, he'll be the same Finley he ever was, but slightly more mature and professional as each year goes by.

Well I am not claiming Finley is mature enough to run a business, coach a professional team or blastoff into space. But he seems to have made progress that writers, his teammates and coaches have noticed. There is no guarantee about the future and he may be fooling everyone. But that doesn't seem indicated by what we currently know.

Given the clamoring that will likely happen early in the 2011 season for the ball on offense, I think we will find out in short order.

[pbmax]

You can like it, but it's indicative of a problem we have here, which is concerning to me, where fucking two-bit half-wit pieces of monkey shit like Mendenhall get their information from rap artists and conspiracy theory "reverends" in Cadillacs with vanity plates that read "GODS WIL." We have a problem of massive idiocy in this nation, and unfortunately, this is just one tiny, small fraction of it. I would, at this juncture celebrate Mendenhall's death, because it would make this world a better, smarter place.

Rap artists and reverends? How about Charlie Sheen and Alex Jones? This kind of crap is everywhere.

[pbmax]

Mostly the problem as that we've seen in the past from guys like Javon Walker or Cletidus Hunt, one good season from a guy is no guarantee that he'll keep it up, guys can always go insane, get hurt, get lazy. Finley hasn't really given us a complete "good season" so while he certainly could become the greatest TE in history, there's a lot that falls into the "wait and see" camp.

Sure wish there was a new CBA in place, so we could be talking about OTAs...

I don't think he has shown any tendency to be lazy like Hunt. And Hunt was lazy prior to the contract year.

Walker just flat panicked and heeded bad advice. He was already older when he entered the league and wanted to accelerate a new contract to cash in. Won't know about this until he makes it through the year at a high level though.

[Lurker64]

I don't think he has shown any tendency to be lazy like Hunt. And Hunt was lazy prior to the contract year.

Walker just flat panicked and heeded bad advice. He was already older when he entered the league and wanted to accelerate a new contract to cash in. Won't know about this until he makes it through the year at a high level though.

Well, the specifics are different in every case but as they say on the TV commercials advertising investment products "past performance is no guarantee of future results." The more Finley produces, the more confident I will be that he can continue to produce.

[Zool]

I'm not especially worried about Finley turning into T.O., but haven't "maturity issues" (things like "missing curfew the night before a playoff game", "lying to coaches", etc.) been one of the concerns about him ever since we drafted him? So I'm hoping that it literally is just a maturity thing and he'll get better as he grows up. But there has to be the concern, not the certainty but the concern, that he may always be a bit of a problem child.

I really only recall this from his rookie season. Wasn't he 20 when he was drafted? The 2010 offseason was filled with sunshine and rainbows coming out of everyones ass talking about how good he was going to be.

[Zool]

You mean like you, you half a butt puppet?

Get your shit straight or shut the fuck up. Running around here like a retarded Partial squawking like a drunk vag fart.

Welcome back ass face. You finally took your panties off to post again?

[prime311]

Dallas Clark is an elite TE. I think this is a silly correlation. Shannon Sharpe and Mark Bavaro have Super Bowl rings. I'd prefer we keep our elite talent at all positions, and see where the chips fall. Yes, Rodgers did go to Finley a tad much early last year, but it's hard to argue with the results. Finley was ridiculously productive per target. However, Driver is slowing down and Jones is likely gone. We are going to need Finley to get back to where he was at the beginning of last year.


Gonzalez and Gates numbers blow away both Clark and Bavaro. This is besides the point though. I of course agree that it would be nice to keep elite players at every position, but what I am saying is that if you have to sacrifice a player somewhere then TE is a good spot to do it because teams don't historically need an elite TE to be successful. They do however need a solid TE that can be relied on to block and be an outlet receiver, but that is something much easier to find.

[HarveyWallbangers]

There are more than just two elite TEs. Mark Bavaro had over 1000 yards receiving in 1986--which was a hell of a number back then. When healthy, Dallas Clark might be the best receiving TE in the game. He had 100 receptions for 1106 yards and 10 TDs in 2009. He was on pace for 100 receptions last year before getting injured. He had 848 yards receiving in 2008 and 11 TDs in 2007. Finley has the talent to do what Clark does for Peyton Manning, and that's open things up for others. Greg Jennings is our Reggie Wayne. Finley can be our Dallas Clark. Then, you can get by with more pedestrian receivers after those two (people like Pierre Garcon or Jordy Nelson). I'd think a lot less of our receiving corps in two years if we have Jennings, Nelson, Cobb, and Quarless or Williams. I'd still think very highly of it if we have Jennings, Nelson, Cobb, and Finley.

However, Finley must prove that he can stay healthy this year.

[Patler]

Finley is obviously an elite talent at TE or WR. He could play either and be a probowler at either.

The problems with Finley are not his talent. The problems with Finley are (resummarizing Patlers points):

1. He's coming of a major knee injury. Who knows how well he comes back
2. I don't know if it's him demanding the ball, but the offense often forced balls to Finley and uncharacteristic interceptions and incompletions happened when throwing his way in double and triple coverage.
3. The offense was more than fine without him
4. He's said some bone head things that make you think he knew more than Rodgers when he was a rookie.
5. He's been known to hang out with VY and when he switched agents there were stories about one agent trying to keep him away from the trouble he seemed to seek out


"....resummarizing Patler's points"?

I made point #1, acknowledged others' making of point #3 and stated that he has said somethings that make you wonder what way his ego might go (somewhat point #4) but I never made any suggestion that he felt he knew more than Rodgers. As to points #2 and #5, I don't believe they are at all related to any statement from me.

I think the single biggest risk with Finley is that he will play out his contract, become a FA and get a ridiculous offer from someone desperate for any receiving options. That doesn't make him a bad guy, or make him any different than many other NFLers who roll the dice in free agency. Someone could make him a WR-like offer. No one thought guards would be paid like tackles, but some in free agency have been. Finley has the potential to put together a season that could make that happen for TEs. If it does happen, I doubt he will remain a Packer.

I think the second biggest risk with Finley is health, either lingering effects from his injury last year or the occurrence of new injuries each year. He just seems to have a style that results in a lot of big hits to his legs.

Issues concerning his ego or personality are of least concern. I think there are a few things that make you wonder about him, but there have been with guys like Barnett, too. It is a little unclear how he might react to a huge all-pro season. It's not a big deal, just a secondary factor that might make the team plan a little more seriously for the position.

I have said time and time again that Finley's attitude change from season 1 to season 2 was marvelous. It really was dramatic. At this point, I'm not at all concerned with the few genuinely dumb things he said as a rookie, unless the "change" we saw from him was not genuine.

[RashanGary]

I like your points, just don't like the order.


Problem 1 - Character worries. I'd give it a 10% chance, but it's scary because he's so darn good and I don't want him to blow up (and I think character goes into whether TT extends players).
Problem 2 - Injury. I feel pretty sure he can get through at least one contract on his knees. He's only 23 or 24 years old.
Problem 3 - Offers from others. We'll franchise him. TE franchise is cheap. Ted doesn't let elite talent go unless it's aging. If he lets Finley go it will be because he doesn't trust him, IMO.


At the end of the day, I think the odds are, Finley is here and plays great. I just think there are other things at play worth discussing. If you think he's more likely to be gone because some other team will pry him away from Ted, I disagree (unless Ted thinks he's a ticking time bomb), but all in all I don't have many points of contention with your post.


I didn't mean to twist your words, was more or less trying to use some of the same points without pretending like I made them up. I threw some of my own in there, not a good tactic in hindsight.

[Patler]

Franchising, if it even remains available, only buys you another year or two, at the most. It's certainly not a longterm solution. A lot may depend on how strong the WR position remains. If the Packers can keep 4 really good WRs, an elite TE might not be so critical, as long as they have a decent one or two. It will all come down to cost.

As for his injuries, I'm not concerned about a premature end to his career, just missing games as a result. It usually only gets worse as they get older.

[get louder at lambeau]

I have said time and time again that Finley's attitude change from season 1 to season 2 was marvelous. It really was dramatic. At this point, I'm not at all concerned with the few genuinely dumb things he said as a rookie, unless the "change" we saw from him was not genuine.

Do you mean his attitude change from year 2 to year 3? Year two was the year when he ditched the dorms at TC, was chronically late to meetings, missed curfew before the playoff game, and fired his agent to go with Major Adams after the season. Year 3 is the one where he magically became mature as far as we know, except for the Super Bowl pic twitting.

[mraynrand]

"Twitting" - LOL

[Patler]

Do you mean his attitude change from year 2 to year 3? Year two was the year when he ditched the dorms at TC, was chronically late to meetings, missed curfew before the playoff game, and fired his agent to go with Major Adams after the season. Year 3 is the one where he magically became mature as far as we know, except for the Super Bowl pic twitting.

Nope. I mean from year 1 to year 2. Did he have relapses? Sure. But, as a rookie he made the statements about not being used enough, or correctly, not doing back shoulder catches, etc. He came back for year 2 with a better attitude, which showed in his performance in year 2.

[Fritz]

Fritz likes that Finley has begun not only to refer to himself in the third person, but that he has two personas.

Those personas need their own names, Fritz thinks. The "new" one - the improved one - can be Jermichael, but the old one should be "Bad Ronald" or something like that.

And if one speaks of himself in the third person, can he sign his own/that guy he refers to's name?

If Good Finley can play well the first half of the season and not get hurt, Fritz thinks TT will try to sign the guy to an extension. It'll be up to Good Finley's agent and Finley to decide if the offer is worth taking.

[get louder at lambeau]

Fritz likes that Finley has begun not only to refer to himself in the third person, but that he has two personas.

Those personas need their own names, Fritz thinks. The "new" one - the improved one - can be Jermichael, but the old one should be "Bad Ronald" or something like that.

And if one speaks of himself in the third person, can he sign his own/that guy he refers to's name?

If Good Finley can play well the first half of the season and not get hurt, Fritz thinks TT will try to sign the guy to an extension. It'll be up to Good Finley's agent and Finley to decide if the offer is worth taking.

You're missing one of his multiple personalities. There's Bad Finley, who is the scapegoat that he can blame for his past issues to act like it wasn't really him, Good Finley, who is the guy who we all hope he can be, and T.G.I.Finley, who is his T.O./Ochocinco-like narcissist superstar personality who tweets stuff like "My my my I look good" and sells T.G.I.Finley t-shirts on his website.

[Lurker64]

Finley recently tweeted:


Everyone asking me what do I think abt TT drafting 2 TEs. U know I will make them better & hopefully they can make me better also..

Seems like as much the right attitude as you can ask from somebody in 140 characters.

[Brandon494]

God what a bad guy, we need to get rid of him ASAP with that attitude. This dude left Texas as a RS sophomore and you guys are bitching about the smallest shit. Is he alittle immature? Yes but the way Farve acted when he first came into the league makes Finley look like an angel.

[mraynrand]

Finley recently tweeted:



Seems like as much the right attitude as you can ask from somebody in 140 characters.

I thought there were only two Finleys. 140 surpasses Sybil proportions...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Finley gives our offense a little attitude--which isn't always a bad thing. To this point, he hasn't been a malcontent--like TO and some others. I just don't get why so many are ripping him. He calls himself TGIF. Big deal! It seems to me that he does this mostly in jest. He was on the radio here in Minneapolis, and he came across well. Even a bit shy. Plus, Aaron Rodgers loves the dude, and that's good enough for me.

[mraynrand]

I think the single biggest risk with Finley is that he will play out his contract, become a FA and get a ridiculous offer from someone desperate for any receiving options.


Absolutely. There are 31 other teams - at least one fool of a GM or Owner will want to throw everything at him thinking it will solve all their woes and/or put them over the top. They might even be right, even though they are typically wrong. But it doesn't matter, if the guy stays dominant, he's pretty much gone, because TT isn't going to be able to get him to sign one of those one-year-early, FA-pre-empting contracts.

[get louder at lambeau]

Absolutely. There are 31 other teams - at least one fool of a GM or Owner will want to throw everything at him thinking it will solve all their woes and/or put them over the top. They might even be right, even though they are typically wrong. But it doesn't matter, if the guy stays dominant, he's pretty much gone, because TT isn't going to be able to get him to sign one of those one-year-early, FA-pre-empting contracts.

I don't see why he'd be gone if he plays well. If Finley has a big year, the Packers can franchise him for pretty reasonable money. Then they can negotiate a long term contract with him. If it doesn't work, they can franchise him again. Then they can try to negotiate a long term contract with him again. They can keep him off the market until 2014 if they want, assuming the rules of the CBA go back to the way they were before. They could also try to sign him during the season this year if they want.

[Tarlam!]

Aaron Rodgers loves the dude

Agreed, but Rodgers goes out of way publicly to love the dude. He seems to me to be stoking an ego. Good for Rodgers if he can contain it that way.

[Brandon494]

Agreed, but Rodgers goes out of way publicly to love the dude. He seems to me to be stoking an ego. Good for Rodgers if he can contain it that way.

How is he going out of his way? Examples please

[Tarlam!]

How is he going out of his way? Examples please

You don't think calling him the best TE in football after the SB win is going out of his way? Shucks, I must be stupid. Oh, and racist.

[Smidgeon]

You can like it, but it's indicative of a problem we have here, which is concerning to me, where fucking two-bit half-wit pieces of monkey shit like Mendenhall get their information from rap artists and conspiracy theory "reverends" in Cadillacs with vanity plates that read "GODS WIL." We have a problem of massive idiocy in this nation, and unfortunately, this is just one tiny, small fraction of it. I would, at this juncture celebrate Mendenhall's death, because it would make this world a better, smarter place.

+1

[Brandon494]

You don't think calling him the best TE in football after the SB win is going out of his way? Shucks, I must be stupid. Oh, and racist.

Stupid? Yes for continuing to bring up race whenever I ask a fucking question. Maybe it's called being a good teammate and leader! He obviously knew Finley was hurt by not being able to play in the super bowl by the comments made about the team pictures and wanted to give his teammate a shout out.

[SkinBasket]

Stupid? Yes for continuing to bring up race whenever I ask a fucking question. Maybe it's called being a good teammate and leader! He obviously knew Finley was hurt by not being able to play in the super bowl by the comments made about the team pictures and wanted to give his teammate a shout out.

Kind of like affirmative action for teammates?

[get louder at lambeau]

Kind of like affirmative action for teammates?

And why didn't Barnett get a shout out? Is it because he's half white? Is Rodgers racist against white people?

[Brandon494]

Yup

[Bretsky]

nothing wrong with confidence. To me that is what that tweet was

[DannoMac21]

the way Farve acted when he first came into the league makes Finley look like an angel.

I'm asking this seriously because I don't know...what did he do?

[swede]

I'm asking this seriously because I don't know...what did he do?

It involved weenies, waitresses, drinking, vicodin, firearms, trick or treating, car chases, and jaywalking.

Wait...the jaywalking was Nick Barnett.

[MJZiggy]

It involved weenies, waitresses, drinking, vicodin, firearms, trick or treating, car chases, and jaywalking.

Wait...the jaywalking was Nick Barnett.

True, you'd think after losing 3 feet of intestines he'd get a clue. But the trick or treating was just funny.

[RashanGary]

I just watched the trick or treating. That was hilarious. Favre was a tank back in the day. I didn't know that was him. I thought 82 was a TE.

[Freak Out]

Man...can you imagine if nutters like LT had Twitter back in the day?

[Packman_26]

You don't think calling him the best TE in football after the SB win is going out of his way? Shucks, I must be stupid. Oh, and racist.

He could also just believe it.
He made similar statements last year such as "Ryan Grant is the running back this team has been missing". Does anyone think that he is just stroking Grants ego?

[Packman_26]

I guess I'm not sure what the huge concern is here. It seems that there are 3 "potential" issues that are all independent of each other.
Character: Does Finley have more concerns with attitude than, say Greg Jennings? Sure, but I would have more concerns with the attitude of Jennings than Mother Teresa. It doesn't mean that Jennings is a bad guy or that anything will ultimately come of it.
The other two, Injury and other offers are my favorites because they fly directly in the face of one another. Could Finley come back a lesser version of himself after the injury? Sure. Could he be so outstanding that he will eventually price himself out of Green Bay? Maybe. But isn't it silly to worry about both of these?
Maybe Finley has more potential issues than most others on the roster, I'm just not so sure that it's really all that concerning. I have a really hard time believing that Thompson is worried about it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Agreed

[Tarlam!]

(...)Does anyone think that he is just stroking Grants ego?

Well, I do. I think Rodgers has his finger on the pulse and goes public with what he feels. Good for him. It's called leadership.

[gbgary]

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/images/smilies/smilie_thud.gif

[mraynrand]

I don't see why he'd be gone if he plays well. If Finley has a big year, the Packers can franchise him for pretty reasonable money. Then they can negotiate a long term contract with him. If it doesn't work, they can franchise him again. Then they can try to negotiate a long term contract with him again. They can keep him off the market until 2014 if they want, assuming the rules of the CBA go back to the way they were before. They could also try to sign him during the season this year if they want.


Sure, all that makes sense, if the current franchising rules stay intact under whatever new agreements are spawned. I guess I assumed all that stuff was going to get blown up.

[RashanGary]

And I'm sure people would have said the same thing about Jolly before his incidents, yet inside the Packers organization, they were worried about him when he was away from football. And I've heard MM say he's not worried about JF when he's around football.

I think it's safe to say it's a conversation. Ben McCadoo said he reads Finleys twitter as much as we do with a laughing but worried tone. It's no secret the guy is a supertalented, impulsive dude.


I'm not too worried about it though. Most talented but impulsive players work out just fine. It's a conversation though. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, it is.

[MadtownPacker]

Is Rodgers racist against white people?

I sure am!

I don't see the big deal. This team has more than enough strong leaders to house a talented nutjob like TGIF. Let the good times roll!

[MadtownPacker]

It involved weenies, waitresses, drinking, vicodin, firearms, trick or treating, car chases, and jaywalking.

Wait...the jaywalking was Nick Barnett.

Sounds like great fuckin time. Where do we sign up?

[swede]

It involved weenies, waitresses, drinking, vicodin, firearms, trick or treating, car chases, and jaywalking.

Wait...the jaywalking was Nick Barnett.
Sounds like great fuckin time. Where do we sign up?

If you substitute "toss a football" for "firearms" that pretty much WAS the Packerrats meet-up at the Bears game a few years ago, wasn't it?

[Fritz]

You're missing one of his multiple personalities. There's Bad Finley, who is the scapegoat that he can blame for his past issues to act like it wasn't really him, Good Finley, who is the guy who we all hope he can be, and T.G.I.Finley, who is his T.O./Ochocinco-like narcissist superstar personality who tweets stuff like "My my my I look good" and sells T.G.I.Finley t-shirts on his website.

If all these Finleys can suit up, the Pack will be unstoppable! Sign them all!

[Packman_26]

And I'm sure people would have said the same thing about Jolly before his incidents, yet inside the Packers organization, they were worried about him when he was away from football. And I've heard MM say he's not worried about JF when he's around football.

I think it's safe to say it's a conversation. Ben McCadoo said he reads Finleys twitter as much as we do with a laughing but worried tone. It's no secret the guy is a supertalented, impulsive dude.


I'm not too worried about it though. Most talented but impulsive players work out just fine. It's a conversation though. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, it is.

I know you said you aren't too worried so I'm not trying to make more out of your post than is really there, but isn't a safe bet that there are lots of players that have those same concerns that never have anything come of it? Just because Jolly has blown his shot, that doesn't make it indicative that Finley will blow his.

[SkinBasket]

HAHAHA!

Mendenhall's tweet cost his his new 4 year contract with Champion. Was there ever a more expensive tweet? What a fuck up.

[Tarlam!]

HAHAHA!

Mendenhall's tweet cost his his new 4 year contract with Champion. Was there ever a more expensive tweet? What a fuck up.

If I'm TT I ban Tweet and Facebook. These guys cannot be trusted.

[Lurker64]

If I'm TT I ban Tweet and Facebook. These guys cannot be trusted.

NFL players are nominally adults, you can pull that shit in college, but not in the NFL. If anybody's going to pull the "hey guys, seriously... don't tweet anything stupid during the season, or really ever" card, it's got to be a a leader in the locker room like Rodgers (who did not tweet during the season.)

[Freak Out]

If I'm TT I ban Tweet and Facebook. These guys cannot be trusted.

Freedom of speech does not apply to the workplace so technically they could ban it. But with what punishment? Do you want to start suspending guys or throw a hefty fine at the players because they tweet or say stupid things?

[Tarlam!]

I know it'll never happen. Mendenhall got more than a slap on the wrist.

[mraynrand]

And why didn't Barnett get a shout out? Is it because he's half white?


Barnett is half-black!

http://zombieroom.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/015-Let-That-Be-Your-Last-Battlefield.jpg

[gbgary]

more inflamatory tweets from fin:

"good morning austin!!"

"austin tx. w/the fam."

[pbmax]

You don't think calling him the best TE in football after the SB win is going out of his way? Shucks, I must be stupid. Oh, and racist.

Didn't Rodgers and McCarthy essentially say the same thing that week after the Super Bowl? Both got the inevitable questions about how you carry this on next year and Rodgers referenced the obvious for the offense; that Finley (and Grant I think) would be back and the offense wasn't likely to underperform again.

McCarthy made the same argument, except he mentioned all the injuries, not just the offense. I don't think either was trying to placate someone. Both were trying to make a case that the team could maintain its edge and with a couple of breaks (FA and injuries) be even better.

What I took from the interviews that week is that the same sense of confidence and high expectation were going to carry over to preparations for next year.

Unless I missed the interview in question, I think the answers told us little about Finley the person and more about the two speakers as leaders.

[Freak Out]

more inflamatory tweets from fin:

"good morning austin!!"

"austin tx. w/the fam."

Wow...if he had endorsement deals they are gone now.

[swede]

Wow...if he had endorsement deals they are gone now.

Well, if he values his career at all he should have been more careful about using initial capitals when writing proper nouns. Children might be reading those tweets. Think big picture, Jermichael!

[MJZiggy]

Well, if he values his career at all he should have been more careful about using initial capitals when writing proper nouns. Children might be reading those tweets. Think big picture, Jermichael!

Only you could think of that, dear.

[Fritz]

Didn't Rodgers and McCarthy essentially say the same thing that week after the Super Bowl? Both got the inevitable questions about how you carry this on next year and Rodgers referenced the obvious for the offense; that Finley (and Grant I think) would be back and the offense wasn't likely to underperform again.

McCarthy made the same argument, except he mentioned all the injuries, not just the offense. I don't think either was trying to placate someone. Both were trying to make a case that the team could maintain its edge and with a couple of breaks (FA and injuries) be even better.

What I took from the interviews that week is that the same sense of confidence and high expectation were going to carry over to preparations for next year.

Unless I missed the interview in question, I think the answers told us little about Finley the person and more about the two speakers as leaders.

Then does all this mean that because Rodgers and McCarthy said this that they're rascist, too? Or half-black? I'm so confused!

[get louder at lambeau]

Then does all this mean that because Rodgers and McCarthy said this that they're rascist, too? Or half-black? I'm so confused!

Yes. They are clearly both half black racists. The only confusing part is who they are racist against. Asians? Mexicans? Jews, maybe?