What free agent "risk" did Ron Wolf ever take?

[Patler]

The signing of Reggie White by Ron Wolf gets brought up time and time again, including by Brett Favre. Realistically, that was about as low of a "risk" as there ever has been in free agency. Incomparable talent, impeccable character and person, no injury history at all.

Looking at this years free agents, how many of the really talented ones (who were not well past the best days, like Larry Allen) did not have some significant risk factor attached to them? Owens, Johnson, Abraham, Peterson, Arrington, Woodson, Brees all have significant injury or attitude risks. Any runningback with a 5 year history or more is inherently risky because their prime career years are so short.

Only a few truly top level talents seem to be free of character or injury concerns. Hutchinson, Bentley and Vinatieri come to mind. I'm sure there might be a few others, but were they potential difference makers?

Back to my topic question. What real "risk" did Wolf take in Free Agency? Many of the older vets and even some of the younger ones were signed to relatively low, short-term contracts. Many came because of Super Bowl possibilities. ABout the biggest risk that I recall was signing Santana Dotson to a fairly lucrative contract. Dotson had been inconsistent at Tampa Bay, and was not even a full-time starter for them. But he was young, and had shown real potential (sound a little like Pickett?).

Wolf was successful because he found good deals among the free agents. Sean Jones had a few years left and came reasonably priced. Desmond Howard had been given up on by some. Many came for short-term deals and/or cheap deals: Strickland, Raleigh McKenzie, Maryland, Galbreath.

On the other hand, Wolf let many, many very good players leave when their prices got too high: Chuck Cecil, Tootie Robbins, Tony Bennett, Bryce Paup, Ed West, Harry Galbreath, Doug Evans, Craig Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Aaron Taylor, Adam Timmerman.

Wolf was not the risk taker some try to make him out to be.

[MJZiggy]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

[Patler]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Yes. Absolutely. There was hardly a team in the NFL, other than Philadelphia, that wasn't after White. If he cam around again, those that could afford him would try, including GB.

TT is cautious, but he is not cheap. He paid significant money for Franks, Kampman and Pickett. I find it humorous that so many fans continue to insist that TT is cheap, yet criticize him for overpaying almost everytime he completes a significant signing. Most of the boards have tended toward opinions that he overpaid for Franks, overpaid for Kampman, and probably paid too much for Pickett but it didn't matter because of all the cap space GB has. Some have even suggested that the money for Manuel was too much.

My opinion is that TT is willing to spend the money for players he wants.

[Tarlam!]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Y'know, TT is really risk-avertive. Shamrock argues there was no risk in the White deal, and I am inclined to follow his argument.

My conclusion is then, yes, TT would outbid everyone for a risk free deal such as the example.

[gureski]

Off the top of my head, Wolf took a free agent shot at Seth Joyner and that didn't work out.

You mention Dotson and that did work out.

Sean Jones and Reggie White are well known free agent acquisitions.

I'm concentrating on bigger name players. Guys like Ron Cox and Strickland don't have much risk as free agents.

Wolf did try to get A.Rison and eventually...now that I think of it, signed Rison.

Wolf tried to sign LB Bryan Cox several times but struck out as Cox picked other teams.

Wolf wasn't ashamed to toss his name in the hat when a free agent was around. He didn't get them all but he had his chips on the table more times then not and wasnt' afraid of guys like Cox and Rison when it came to bidding. Again, he didn't win them but he tried.

Desmond Howard was a free agent acquisition too.

[Patler]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Also keep in mind that Ron Wolf was willing to make a blockbuster offer to Reggie White, and just two years later would not pay enough to keep Bryce Paup, who really wanted to stay in GB. Paup was already a difference maker on defense, went on to several Pro-Bowl and All-Pro seasons, and was Defensive Player of the Year shortly after leaving.

You could argue that Wolf was too "cheap" to keep Paup, Craig Hentrich, Adam Timmerman and many others.

[Patler]

Gureski; my point was that even apart from White many of the well-known players that Wolf signed came in low-risk deals. Many came because they wanted a chance for a Super Bowl. As I recall, Seth Joyner came extremely cheap, so that really was not a risk.

[gureski]

Gureski; my point was that even apart from White many of the well-known players that Wolf signed came in low-risk deals. Many came because they wanted a chance for a Super Bowl. As I recall, Seth Joyner came extremely cheap, so that really was not a risk.

In order to paint Wolf in this picture you have to offer up names of guys he passed by that he should've went after. Example: Many say Thompson should've gone after Witherspoon. What players do you think Wolf showed any weakness by not going after?

I will say to you that Wolf didn't need to go after tons of high risk free agents because he drafted so damn well that most all the spots were covered in-house!

The only real weak spot on the team was the LB corps and specifically MLB where Wolf tried at least twice to lure Bryan Cox and Hardy Nickerson (in their prime) to G.B. and other MLB's that were on the market. He just couldn't land one. Other then that, Wolf needed a safety and went out and traded for one. He covered himself at nearly all positions by his sound GM moves early on. Hell, we're still playing with a core of Wolf players right now. That's how good his drafts were. Because of that fact, it's hard for you to say that Wolf didn't take risks in free agency.....he didn't have many opportunities to take risks because he did the rest of his job so well. You can't judge his ability to take risks on the number of guys he signed to 'risk' deals because he didn't have many opportunities/need to do that. It's a skewed stat. Who signs a high risk high money player just to do it? (see D.Snyder in Wash)

All you can say is that Wolf wasn't afraid to toss his name into the bidding wars for high priced players like A.Rison, H.Nickerson, B.Cox, R.White and more. He didn't win them all but he was at the table, chips in hand...trying. He took plenty of risks. B.Favre for a 1st rounder was a risk. Keith Jackson via trade after he said he wouldn't play in G.B. was a risk. Dotson and G.Brown were risks. Wolf wasn't a wuss by any measure.

[KYPack]

Do you think if the next incarnation of Reggie White showed up on the Free Agent market, Ted Thompson would outbid everyone for his services?

Also keep in mind that Ron Wolf was willing to make a blockbuster offer to Reggie White, and just two years later would not pay enough to keep Bryce Paup, who really wanted to stay in GB. Paup was already a difference maker on defense, went on to several Pro-Bowl and All-Pro seasons, and was Defensive Player of the Year shortly after leaving.

You could argue that Wolf was too "cheap" to keep Paup, Craig Hentrich, Adam Timmerman and many others.

Go to the head of the class, Shamrock. My sentiments exactly. Those are the biggest "puzzles" of the Wolf regime. By today's standards it was peanuts to keep those 3. Dedicated guys who busted their ass & had "Packer" written all over 'em. Why in the hell Wolf didn't sign 'em is beyond me. I've always felt Wolf tried to be a hard-ass like his mentor, Al Davis.

There was one "risk" guy that I remember. Andre Rison had ruined a couple locker rooms and his old lady burned down a house when Wolf signed him in '96.

He transformed into a team leader and locker room dude & scored the first touchdown in the Super Bowl. Wolf wouldn't have done it if Freeman hadn't broken his arm, but it was chancey at the time.

[Patler]

KY;
I would argue that even Andre Rison was not a risk. He was brought in for the last 5 games out of necessity. If he became a problem he would have been shown the door. GB would have been out only the salary he was paid for the games he was there. For all Rison did those last five games and the playoffs, he was not brought back the following season.

[Tarlam!]

Rison is a great case example of why owners shell out millions to get T.O. or Moss. That's also why we should go after Arrington. I the M3 would be seat as his coach...

[Patler]

Gureski; you kind of make my point for me. Wolf was never willing to offer a big enough contract to get Nickerson or Cox to GB, even though middle linebacker was a position of need. Sure he threw his hat in the ring, just like TT did for Vinatieri, Woodson and now Arrington.

For that matter, if memory serves me correctly, I think Wolf made an effort for Seth Joyner when he left Philly to go to Arizona. But again Wolf would not pay enough to get him, and only signed him 3 years later when he came cheaply.

My point is simply that Wolf was more cautious than some would now like to believe, as evidenced by his unwillingnes to pay Nickerson, Cox, Timmerman, Hentrich, Cecil, Paup, Aaron Taylor and many, many others.

Except for White, I think Wolf lost better talent in free agency than he signed. However, he drafted well and signed many less talented role players to fill the gaps.

[KYPack]

KY;
I would argue that even Andre Rison was not a risk. He was brought in for the last 5 games out of necessity. If he became a problem he would have been shown the door. GB would have been out only the salary he was paid for the games he was there. For all Rison did those last five games and the playoffs, he was not brought back the following season.

Yeah know, that's the trouble with this board. I agree with 99% of the posters. The only poster that is a moron is Tank, he is kind of the "designated idiot" on here.

There wasn't a lot of risk in the Rison deal financially. But every time you bring a player into the locker room, there is a risk of disrupting the ballclub. I can flat garauntee you that Ron Wolf had any number of serious discussions with Dre before agreeing to sign him.

Not a ton of risk, but it still involved chancing the teams ability to get to the Super Bowl. Wolf would gamble on some guys if he thought it would help his team. He added to the ballclub thru both avenues, the draft and FA. Thompson has been a washout in his FA signings. He needs to up the talent on this team thru every available means. If he fails to do that, we are staring mediocrity in the face

[Patler]

There wasn't a lot of risk in the Rison deal financially. But every time you bring a player into the locker room, there is a risk of disrupting the ballclub.

Thompson has been a washout in his FA signings. He needs to up the talent on this team thru every available means. If he fails to do that, we are staring mediocrity in the face

I suspect Rison was on a very short leash, and at the first hint of trouble he would have been released. He would not have been given the chance to be a disruption.

TT has had successes in FA, too. Gado was a good signing. I thinkDonald Lee was a good signing. The only one that has seemingly flopped is Adrian Klemm, who doesn't seem to be more than a backup tackle. I'm not sure what people expected from Freeman, Little and O'Dwyer. In reallity these were simply guys who were offered "tryouts" with GB. Each was signed to basically a veterans minimum contract. Maybe the biggest fault is TT should have brought in even more guards than he did.

[Tarlam!]

Klemm is a solid tackle, that struggled in the Sherman "pull" system for guards, from all accounts I have read. This was clearly the wrong player at the wrong postition in the wrong system.

He does possess work ethic and has a history of winning SBs. That's a boon right there. He's able to conjure images to feed the imagination of the youngens. I liked his coming to GB, I wish Sherm's system was not so prohibitive to his success.

I firmly believe, he will be a remarkly improved player in the "zone" as will Barry by playing his true position at last.

[Patler]

Klemm is a solid tackle, that struggled in the Sherman "pull" system for guards, from all accounts I have read. This was clearly the wrong player at the wrong postition in the wrong system.

He does possess work ethic and has a history of winning SBs. That's a boon right there. He's able to conjure images to feed the imagination of the youngens. I liked his coming to GB, I wish Sherm's system was not so prohibitive to his success.

I firmly believe, he will be a remarkly improved player in the "zone" as will Barry by playing his true position at last.

I thought Klemm might work out as a guard this year, but I have read two different statements from the coaches that seem to indicate he will be kept at tackle. However, I do think he is valuable as Clifton's backup. That is not an insignificant role, just not the one he was expected to fill.

[Tarlam!]

Yah, well, I like having versatile linemen. The simpler the system, the more potential for versatility.

I am happy to have Klemm. He's a good character guy. He works hard. He is a little slow to improve. I am a little concerned about his motivation to come to GB. I think he perceives this as an experiment, but we were counting on him to achieve.

Still, I am comfortable with him on the roster.

[GBRulz]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know. I find this argument a little shady. It's easy to say after the fact that guys like Andre Rison and Keith Jackson weren't risks, but they could have blown team chemistry. To see what Ron Wolf was about you have to also look at some of the trades he made. Trading a first for Favre was a risk. Trading a 2nd round pick at CB who some thought I had good potential for a RB that not many people wanted, Ahman Green, was a risk. He paid pretty good money to a DT who disappointed in Tampa Bay after a strong rookie year, Santana Dotson.

[gureski]

Gureski; you kind of make my point for me. Wolf was never willing to offer a big enough contract to get Nickerson or Cox to GB, even though middle linebacker was a position of need. Sure he threw his hat in the ring, just like TT did for Vinatieri, Woodson and now Arrington.

For that matter, if memory serves me correctly, I think Wolf made an effort for Seth Joyner when he left Philly to go to Arizona. But again Wolf would not pay enough to get him, and only signed him 3 years later when he came cheaply.

My point is simply that Wolf was more cautious than some would now like to believe, as evidenced by his unwillingnes to pay Nickerson, Cox, Timmerman, Hentrich, Cecil, Paup, Aaron Taylor and many, many others.

Except for White, I think Wolf lost better talent in free agency than he signed. However, he drafted well and signed many less talented role players to fill the gaps.

I disagree. The contracts Wolf was offerring some of the players you mention would've made them the highest paid players at their positions in the NFL. You're not going to get every player you want. Nickerson, for example, decided to stay in T.B. rather then coming to G.B.. It wasnt' because Wolf didn't offer enough money. It's not like Wolf knew what the other teams were offerring and didn't top them. He made a huge offer and the other teams topped that. I think he thought he had Rison until Cleveland jumped in and stole him away.

I wouldn't say he was cautious as much as I'd say he was responsible. He didn't throw money away. Cautious is Ted Thompson. Wolf wasn't afraid to spend. He just refused to spend stupidly. The only signing you can really stick to him as a overly cautious approach was the Hentrich fiasco. Wolf just flat out refused to be the first GM to pay a punter 1 million dollars a year. He did that on principle and he said as much when it went down. He also later admitted that being one of his biggest mistakes as GM.

Paup was not an every down player for the Packers when he left for Buffalo. The Packers played a 4-3 and Paup was a classic 3-4 LB. Buffalo ran a 3-4 and could use him every down where-as the Packers could only use him primarily as a pass rushing specialist. He was a great player but for what the role the Packers were going to use him in.....he wanted too much money. That's not being cheap. That's being smart. Paup had more value to 3-4 team and the Packers were not going to change their defensive scheme to keep Paup.

I think the major dispute we have is over your terminology of stating Wolf was not 'willing' to pay for the players you listed. I think in many cases he WAS willing but didn't get the player and in other instances he had guys ready to take over that were future pro-bowlers so why pay contracts that made those players amongst the highest paid in the league at their position when you have future all-pro's ready to take over? Rivera took over for Taylor. Whale took over for Timmerman. Cecil became the highest paid safety in the league while George Teague took over his spot and went on to have a better overall career then Teague. Time after time...except for the Hentrich move....Wolf did the right thing. When he let guys go it wasn't because he didn't want to pay them.....it was because he had guys ready and waiting to play and didn't need to pay the players he had! He was able to divert the money he would've spent on those players to other spots on the team...like signing Desmond Howard who turned into the Superbowl MVP... He did that because he was so good at drafting and trades that he always had players ready to start on the bench so he never needed to break the bank on guys like Timmerman and Taylor.

So, again...I don't think it's so much that Wolf was unwilling as it was that he didn't need to offer high risk, high dollar deals to guys. It makes no sense to go down those roads if you don't have to. By the many high profile players that Wolf did go after it is obvious that he wasn't afraid to take shots at things. It's not his fault guys chose other offers over his. It's not like they were all in the same room and Wolf closed his notebook and walked out while others kept bidding. He made very attractive offers and the players chose to go elsewhere. The point is he did try and did put big money on the table. It wasn't a token try.

[gureski]

I don't know. I find this argument a little shady. It's easy to say after the fact that guys like Andre Rison and Keith Jackson weren't risks, but they could have blown team chemistry. To see what Ron Wolf was about you have to also look at some of the trades he made. Trading a first for Favre was a risk. Trading a 2nd round pick at CB who some thought I had good potential for a RB that not many people wanted, Ahman Green, was a risk. He paid pretty good money to a DT who disappointed in Tampa Bay after a strong rookie year, Santana Dotson.

Furthering this argument is the fact that Keith Jackson said he wouldn't play in G.B. AND sat out for like 10 games of his first season here in G.B.. That was pure risk on the part of Wolf to give up a 2nd or 3d rounder for an older player who said he wouldn't play for this franchise. That's pure risk right there.

Rison wasn't a 'nice' team guy in his hey-day. Thus the nickname...Bad Moon Rison. Just offerring (and finally bringing in) Rison was a risk.

[gureski]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Speaking of Timmerman, how about Aaron Taylor? He went on to some pretty good seasons in SD, if I recall. My vote for bust is Ross Verba, only because the guy had a killer rookie year and I got a signed jersey of his that is pretty much worthless now.

But I agree with all of the posts here so far. Wolf was not the perfect GM everyone paints him out to be. He will always be remembered for his successes and nailing one of biggest free agents in GB history (White), but without some gambles that worked out, it could've went either way for him. He did let scores of really talented players go, took risks on some that didn't work out, and brought in players that were character challenges (Rison) that you never would expected. I do get frustrated with the criticism of TT because he's got a long-term plan and isn't willing to break the bank for a single player. He has done things that are reminiscient of Wolf and could be the next Wolf with a couple Favre/White successes. I would love the Pack to take a chance on Arrington and Woodson, but not to appease Favre.

tyler

[Patler]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

Gureski, Wahle was no where near "ready to take over the starting guard spot" when Timmerman was allowed to leave. Wahle started in 1999, but gave up more and more time to McKenzie who took over as the starter. In 2000 they moved Verba from tackle to guard, and tried to play Wahle at left tackle for a few games until he was again replaced, this time by Clifton, a rookie. Verba stayed at guard and Wahle went to the bench. Wahle didn't become a legitimate starter at guard until 2001.

[Patler]

How was Rison any risk at all? He was brought in for the 12th game of the season. He cost little. If he had caused any trouble at all he would have been ushered out promptly. As it was he was not brought back the following year.

He would never have been given a chance to be a disruption.

[Tarlam!]

Shamrock, you remind me of a poster over at JSO. The way you write, your style of arguing....

[jack's smirking revenge]

How was Rison any risk at all? He was brought in for the 12th game of the season. He cost little. If he had caused any trouble at all he would have been ushered out promptly. As it was he was not brought back the following year.

He would never have been given a chance to be a disruption.

Very true. He was at the sunset of his crazy career when the Pack brought him in and virtually HANDED HIM a SB ring. If I remember correctly, he went on to some mediocre seasons with the Chiefs following his stint with the Packers. I could be wrong on that one.

Do you think the character risks are different these days? It seems like character risks (like TO and McKenzie) have more leverage than the Rison days. I contend that the league is a lot more mercenary than it used to be. TO makes millions and takes his act from team to team. His talent backs up his big mouth, but it still seems different. Maybe its just me.

tyler

[Patler]

Shamrock, you remind me of a poster over at JSO. The way you write, your style of arguing....

Who might that be??

[Partial]

It most certainly look Rivera and Wahle several seasons to come into their own. It wasn't like they stepped in and were immediately pro-bowlers. Just wanted to note that.

[Patler]

gureski
I think we are msotly in agreement about Wolf. We are just using different terminology. His strength was in having a deep roster, something Sherman utterly failed at. As a result, he set limits for what he would spend to retain a player, and simply let them go if the cost exceded that.

Except for White, Wolf really never did "what ever it took" to get anyone to GB, and really never signed another high profile FA. He did sign a lot of role-players.

I acknowledged in my first post to start this topic that Dotson was his biggest risk. As I wrote, "ABout the biggest risk that I recall was signing Santana Dotson to a fairly lucrative contract. Dotson had been inconsistent at Tampa Bay, and was not even a full-time starter for them. But he was young, and had shown real potential (sound a little like Pickett?)"

[Patler]

It most certainly look Rivera and Wahle several seasons to come into their own. It wasn't like they stepped in and were immediately pro-bowlers. Just wanted to note that.

Exactly. Rivera was considered the "weak link" on the line for several years. Wahle became the "weak link" when he took over at guard even in 2001. It was a couple years until he was considered the equal of the other four.

Actually, Whittaker is far ahead of either Wahle or Rivera in playing experience after one year. Neither Wahle nor Rivera played as rookies, and each was highly suspect when they first began to play in later years. Rivera didn't become a starter until his 3rd year. Wahle played more his second year, but was out of the picture again his third year.

[Guiness]

Well put Shamrockfan and Partial. I thought that a couple of times this year - Whittaker got a lot more field time as a rookie than either of the departed guards people moon over. Of course, that could also be comment on what was backing them up. GB didn't have a Verba or McKenzie to insert this year.

BTW shamrock - you post a little like BatPack. Good knowledge, but a rough side to your tongue when peeved. Dunno if that's who Tarlam was refering to.

[Patler]

BTW shamrock - you post a little like BatPack. Good knowledge, but a rough side to your tongue when peeved. Dunno if that's who Tarlam was refering to.

Rough side? Really? It's certainly not intended. I quess maybe I just have strong opinions. I will try to show my "softer, gentler" side!

[Guiness]

I think Rison was a risk for a different reason that mentioned in other posts.

Rison HAD to fit in. Wolf could've went for a safer pick that would've definitely worked, but instead grabbed the most talented guy available, even if he did have some warts. He needed to do something, and went for the brass ring.

You rarely see mid-season trades in the NFL. Teams are much more likely to grab a street FA, or promote from the practice squad. That alone makes it a balsy move.

*awaiting the list of 20 mid-season trades that worked, that I'm sure someone will post*

[HarveyWallbangers]

I acknowledged in my first post to start this topic that Dotson was his biggest risk. As I wrote, "ABout the biggest risk that I recall was signing Santana Dotson to a fairly lucrative contract. Dotson had been inconsistent at Tampa Bay, and was not even a full-time starter for them. But he was young, and had shown real potential (sound a little like Pickett?)"

I'd say it isn't quite the same. Dotson was good in his rookie year, but got worse as his career went on. He looked like a big risk because he looked like he was on the downside. Pickett was disappointing his first year or two, okay the next year, and finally had a breakout year last year. He appears to be on the upside. I don't see a ton of risk there.

I won't blame Thompson so much for last year because he didn't have money--although who he signed stunk (Klemm, O'Dwyer, Thompson, Freeman, and Little). However, Ron Wolf never had this much money to play with and he still managed to bring in Sean Jones, Reggie White, Dotson, Seth Joyner, Hardy Nickerson, Andre Rison. Add to this Keith Jackson, Brett Favre, and Ahman Green via risk taking trades. I understand that some of his signings were not the high budget kinds (Reggie Cobb, Mark Ingram, Mark Clayton). Maybe the crux of this whole thing is that Ron Wolf now has a proven track record of success and nobody can feel all that confident that who Thompson brings in will be that great. Like I said, Ron Wolf never had this much money to play with. I would imagine Wolf would have targetted more players, big names or not, and would have brought them in by now. I don't think he was the penny pincher that Thompson is. Wolf's teams were always at or near the cap limit--while Thompson is always looking for a deal--at the expense of losing some good players--even with $30M+ to spend.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I think what was also working in Wolf's favor was the "perception" of the Packers. Right now, we are a team with so many question marks and so much negativity surrounding it that we're not a "preferred" destination. We're a team bottoming out right now. That's not very attractive to free agents. At the beginning of Wolf's era, there was so much positive buzz and the perception of a team on the rise that free agents were attracted to GB for many reasons.

Right now, it's really hard to find a reason for a FA to come to GB other than for the money.

tyler

[swede]

Gureski,

What a thoughtful post. Your recall of the facts regarding Heinrich and Wolf are spot on. To me, the Wolf era was a perfect storm that involved Favre, White, Holmgren, and that awesome draft--was it '93?--that brought us so many starters. But Wolf was by no means perfect. As you point out, along the way we lost players to free agency and we missed on players in free agency. That's just gonna happen.


Shamrock, you also add a lot to the quality of the debate in this forum. I like the civility you usually bring to football argumentation. You'll notice that Gureski, Patler, Harv, and Bretsky (usually) tend to be civil as well.

KY, I like your posts, too, but please take it easy on Tank. He's like the little brother that you know is an idiot but you'll defend him against anyone. Forum life is better with a variety of personalities.

Overall, I understand how people could be getting impatient with TT, but I'm surprised at how vehemently people criticize him, believing his reticence translates somehow to incompetence.

[esoxx]

"BTW shamrock - you post a little like BatPack. Good knowledge, but a rough side to your tongue when peeved. Dunno if that's who Tarlam was refering to."

Ouch! Not a flattering comparison. Any Packer fan (or football fan) who doesn't know how the Packers acquired Brett Favre doesn't have very good knowledge.

[Patler]

"BTW shamrock - you post a little like BatPack. Good knowledge, but a rough side to your tongue when peeved. Dunno if that's who Tarlam was refering to."

Ouch! Not a flattering comparison. Any Packer fan (or football fan) who doesn't know how the Packers acquired Brett Favre doesn't have very good knowledge.

Well, I'm definately NOT BatPack!

BTW, Favre fell off a turnip truck on its way through Green Bay, didn't he? (Is that even a phrase anyone uses anymore?)

[Patler]

Shamrock, you also add a lot to the quality of the debate in this forum. I like the civility you usually bring to football argumentation. You'll notice that Gureski, Patler, Harv, and Bretsky (usually) tend to be civil as well.



Thanks Swede. I normally try to be civil, albeit persuasive.
I thought Patler was a "no show" on this board?

[HarveyWallbangers]

shamrock,

If I had a salary cap question, would you be able to answer it?

[jack's smirking revenge]

Shamrock, do you have a favorite cartoon character?

tyler

[Little Whiskey]

the differance between the two GM's is time. We can look back on Wolf and say he did this right and that right, he had his bases covered when he refused to make this or that move. but with Thompson, he dosen't have a history in GB. So we can't make the same comparisons. ya we can look back to seatle but then the argument is made was it the holmgren or him. who is to say whether or not he made offers to players that came thru greenbay this year or not. maybe he was outbid. he is not as open as wolf IS. especially now when he has no ties to the franchise.

my thought is that we have to give this guy a chance, whether he succeds or fails give him a chance. he has only had one year. how can you be judged on that alone! give the guy some time.

[Patler]

shamrock,

If I had a salary cap question, would you be able to answer it?

What sport?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Football, baby.

[Patler]

Shamrock, do you have a favorite cartoon character?

tyler

Ally Oop. I think it is a long-discontinued comic strip. Anyone remember him? He was a caveman.

[Guiness]

Shamrock, you also add a lot to the quality of the debate in this forum. I like the civility you usually bring to football argumentation. You'll notice that Gureski, Patler, Harv, and Bretsky (usually) tend to be civil as well.



Thanks Swede. I normally try to be civil, albeit persuasive.
I thought Patler was a "no show" on this board?

Mmm. I think the mention of Patler was a Freudien slip. :mrgreen:

I dunno HW and Jack. You could be right. I was going on the fact that his posts were basically gramatically correct, and devoid of spalling erros. Both pretty uncommon at JSO. Also tends to use the same tense.

A quick search back at 'Has TT Really done nothing' shows me some lists of facts Pat was known for. So I'll agree, although I haven't seen enough numbers to convince me!

'course you are him Patler, I wanna know why you didn't respond to my PM at JSO! :cry:

[Guiness]

Shamrock, do you have a favorite cartoon character?

tyler

Ally Oop. I think it is a long-discontinued comic strip. Anyone remember him? He was a caveman.

No, no, no. The Bender's still produce it. And it's Alley Oop (nice try at inserting a spelling error)

If you want to see the daily strip, go to http://www.comics.com/comics/alleyoop/index.html

Right now, Tunk just invaded because he thought Guz stole his crown. Someone found it under a bush, and Alley and Guz had Dinny and his pals chase them out of Moo. :smile:

[Patler]

Guiness, that's fantastic! I have not seen it in years! I just assumed it had gone to that great comic section in the sky!

[gureski]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

Gureski, Wahle was no where near "ready to take over the starting guard spot" when Timmerman was allowed to leave. Wahle started in 1999, but gave up more and more time to McKenzie who took over as the starter. In 2000 they moved Verba from tackle to guard, and tried to play Wahle at left tackle for a few games until he was again replaced, this time by Clifton, a rookie. Verba stayed at guard and Wahle went to the bench. Wahle didn't become a legitimate starter at guard until 2001.

Insert Verba for Whale then. The timeline after all these years isn't 100% on but it's close enough. The main point is that they had a replacement ready. They had it covered and they did have a guy on the team that had the talent, though developing, to be an all-pro. Sometimes you just have to toss that player in and devleop them.

[Patler]

Insert Verba for Whale then. The timeline after all these years isn't 100% on but it's close enough. The main point is that they had a replacement ready. They had it covered and they did have a guy on the team that had the talent, though developing, to be an all-pro. Sometimes you just have to toss that player in and devleop them.

Actually, Wolf really "lucked" out during that whole time period, but he made his own luck by drafting well.

In 1997 Verba took over at left tackle for the inept John Michaels.

In 1998 Aaron Taylor left. The untested Marco Rivera took over at LG and struggled, but survived.

1n 1999 Timmerman left, Rivera moved from LG to RG and Wahle/McKenzie struggled together at left guard.

In 2000 Verba moved to guard, Wahle moved to tackle and was horrible. Luckily the untested rookie, Chad Clifton was inserted into the starting lineup in place of Wahle and solidified things. However, even worse was the fact that Earl Dotson went down for the year, and Mark Tauscher, an afterthought for many, stepped in also as a rookie.

In 2001 Verba left and Wahle came back in at LG, struggled but then settled in. Also, Flanagan replaced Winters as the starter at center.


With the exception of Rivera, it was musical chairs in the O-line for 5 years, and 4 of the 5 starters were replaced in two years.

Wolf changed guards at the drop of a hat. From 1991 to 2000 the starters LG & RG were:

Moran & Hallstrom
Moran/Winters & Hallstrom
Widell & Galbreath
McIntyre/Winters & Galbreath
Taylor & Galbreath
Taylor & Timmerman
Taylor & Timmerman
Rivera & Timmerman
McKenzie/Wahle & Rivera
Verba & Rivera.

10 years and 12 different starters. Never went more than two years with the same combination of guards. Only Taylor and Timmerman started at the same position for as much as 3 years.

[Tarlam!]

I thought Patler was a "no show" on this board?

And you know Patler, because...?

[Patler]

I thought Patler was a "no show" on this board?

And you know Patler, because...?

The very first day I was here, the first string I opened to read was about Faine. The string started with two long quotations from "Patler" that had been copied and pasted by Partial. I asked who "Patler" was and was directed to his postings on JSonline. He has been mentioned several times since. I've read some of his postings on JSonline.

[Guiness]

In 2000 Verba moved to guard, Wahle moved to tackle and was horrible. Luckily the untested rookie, Chad Clifton was inserted into the starting lineup in place of Wahle and solidified things. However, even worse was the fact that Earl Dotson went down for the year, and Mark Tauscher, an afterthought for many, stepped in also as a rookie.



I remember when Dotson went down - I live near Buffalo, and the game was locally televised. Tauscher came trotting out and I was thinking "who is this guy, and what are we in for now?"

He wasn't exactly on the radar, as I recall.

[Bretsky]

I thought Patler was a "no show" on this board?

And you know Patler, because...?

The very first day I was here, the first string I opened to read was about Faine. The string started with two long quotations from "Patler" that had been copied and pasted by Partial. I asked who "Patler" was and was directed to his postings on JSonline. He has been mentioned several times since. I've read some of his postings on JSonline.

Yes, and I dedicate a thread in the beloved Badger section and he still doens't show up.

[GBRulz]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

Um, Gureski? Wahle was nowhere near being a starting guard at that time as his rookie season was Timmermans's last season in GB. In fact, Wahle was in the dog house with many in his first couple of seasons even after Timmerman was gone.

That was my whole point - was why we didn't even attempt to resign Timmerman. Do we know he would require a 3 million dollar salary to stay in GB? No, we do not. No biggie, I was just speculation on one guy that I was sad to see leave GB, when it possibly could have been avoided.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The very first day I was here, the first string I opened to read was about Faine. The string started with two long quotations from "Patler" that had been copied and pasted by Partial. I asked who "Patler" was and was directed to his postings on JSonline. He has been mentioned several times since. I've read some of his postings on JSonline.

There is speculation that you and patler are one and the same.

And I'm afraid you are now condemned to forever live under the clowd of this horrible accusation. (Only kidding, patler is fine.)

It wouldn't be patler's style to deny a direct question, he's a rather honest fellow. But then again, if you really WERE patler, he'd be too proud to admit his deception!

You poor man, forever stained by doubt.

[KYPack]

Gureski,

What a thoughtful post. Your recall of the facts regarding Heinrich and Wolf are spot on. To me, the Wolf era was a perfect storm that involved Favre, White, Holmgren, and that awesome draft--was it '93?--that brought us so many starters. But Wolf was by no means perfect. As you point out, along the way we lost players to free agency and we missed on players in free agency. That's just gonna happen.


Shamrock, you also add a lot to the quality of the debate in this forum. I like the civility you usually bring to football argumentation. You'll notice that Gureski, Patler, Harv, and Bretsky (usually) tend to be civil as well.

KY, I like your posts, too, but please take it easy on Tank. He's like the little brother that you know is an idiot but you'll defend him against anyone. Forum life is better with a variety of personalities.
.

Arrite, Swede.

You are a decent sort, so I'll lighten up on Baby Tanky if it bothers ya.

You see Tank did a lot of stupid and immature stuff on the old Forum, so I like to call him on some of his foolishness. It doesn't really keep him in line, but I was letting him know WE ARE AWARE of his nonsense.

This is the Packer Rat pool of domestic tranquility & I don't wanna be the one to make waves.

[Guiness]

You poor man, forever stained by doubt.

Who said he's a man?

Oh. That speculation belongs in another forum...

[Patler]

The very first day I was here, the first string I opened to read was about Faine. The string started with two long quotations from "Patler" that had been copied and pasted by Partial. I asked who "Patler" was and was directed to his postings on JSonline. He has been mentioned several times since. I've read some of his postings on JSonline.

There is speculation that you and patler are one and the same.

And I'm afraid you are now condemned to forever live under the clowd of this horrible accusation. (Only kidding, patler is fine.)

It wouldn't be patler's style to deny a direct question, he's a rather honest fellow. But then again, if you really WERE patler, he'd be too proud to admit his deception!

You poor man, forever stained by doubt.

What direct question?
What deception?

[HarveyWallbangers]

What direct question?
What deception?

Are you patler?

[Tarlam!]

What direct question?
What deception?

Are you patler?

This is a hell of a long drumroll......

[MJZiggy]

What direct question?
What deception?

Are you patler?

This is a hell of a long drumroll...... :lol: :lol:

[Patler]

What direct question?
What deception?

Are you patler?

Well, no one known to me, knows me as Patler.
But, of course, no one known to me knows me as Shamrockfan either!

[Little Whiskey]

i don't care who your are just get a damn avatar!!


probably a snoopy pic

[Patler]

i don't care who your are just get a damn avatar!!


probably a snoopy pic

I've tried. Sized it correctly and everything. Iget a screen that says my profile has been updated, but the avatar doesn't appear in my postings.

I gave up! :sad: :sad:

[Tarlam!]

Are you also the poster that goes by the name Patler on the JSO Packers forum, or, went by that name on that forum if you no longer post there?

Did you ever post under the name of Patler on the CE forum?

I think that is a direct few questions.....

[Patler]

Are you also the poster that goes by the name Patler on the JSO Packers forum, or, went by that name on that forum if you no longer post there?

Did you ever post under the name of Patler on the CE forum?

I think that is a direct few questions.....

I can be, if you want me to be. It seems to be a name and persona that are available on here.

After all, who really is anyone on these boards?
We are who we say we are, nothing more.
Patler is Patler.
Shamrockfan is Shamrockfan.
I am me, and in reality I am neither "Patler" nor "Shamrockfan".

The JSO Packers forum, the CE forum and Packerrats are different environments, different false worlds so to speak. Does Patler, whoever portrays him, even belong here? He seems to still post occassionally on the JSO forum. I guess he will decide, and then everyone will know if he is or is not Shamrockfan as well.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Too funny. Shamrock you sham rock!

tyler

[MadtownPacker]

I've tried. Sized it correctly and everything. Iget a screen that says my profile has been updated, but the avatar doesn't appear in my postings.

I gave up! :sad: :sad:

Do you have a link to the pic? If not email it to me using the email on my profile and I will fix it for you.

[Bretsky]

Are you also the poster that goes by the name Patler on the JSO Packers forum, or, went by that name on that forum if you no longer post there?

Did you ever post under the name of Patler on the CE forum?

I think that is a direct few questions.....

I can be, if you want me to be. It seems to be a name and persona that are available on here.

After all, who really is anyone on these boards?
We are who we say we are, nothing more.
Patler is Patler.
Shamrockfan is Shamrockfan.


After this post, I must wonder, am I Bretsky, or could this all be a dream and I'm trapped inside a woman's body wanting to get out ???
I am me, and in reality I am neither "Patler" nor "Shamrockfan".

The JSO Packers forum, the CE forum and Packerrats are different environments, different false worlds so to speak. Does Patler, whoever portrays him, even belong here? He seems to still post occassionally on the JSO forum. I guess he will decide, and then everyone will know if he is or is not Shamrockfan as well.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm guessing Bretsky is drunk--after he messed up his last post. Here's a clue pal. Use the quote tags around the text you are quoting. Make your remarks outside of these quote tags.
:lol:

[Bretsky]

I'm guessing Bretsky is drunk--after he messed up his last post. Here's a clue pal. Use the quote tags around the text you are quoting. Make your remarks outside of these quote tags.
:lol:

Not drunk; just confused. This dam diet is not good to mix booze with. I've used this quote feature many times; no clue why it was messed up.

user error; no way. Must have been the computer :mrgreen:

[GBRulz]

Am I the only one who cannot see Whiskey's avatar? I see a white box.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Am I the only one who cannot see Whiskey's avatar? I see a white box.

That's his sheep in snowstorm picture or something like that.

[Guiness]

Am I the only one who cannot see Whiskey's avatar? I see a white box.

There's a little black dot. It's a zoomed out picture of him passed out flat on his back after polishing off the jug that was in his last avatar.

[Guiness]

After this post, I must wonder, am I Bretsky, or could this all be a dream and I'm trapped inside a woman's body wanting to get out ???

And whom shall I say is asking the question?

[Little Whiskey]

Am I the only one who cannot see Whiskey's avatar? I see a white box.

GBM, get your nose right up close to your monitor. wait till your eyes start to go buggy then blink three times and say redrum six times, slowing pull your face away from the screen and the image will appear. it is an albino cow eating snow in a blizzard.

[retailguy]

Am I the only one who cannot see Whiskey's avatar? I see a white box.

GBM, get your nose right up close to your monitor. wait till your eyes start to go buggy then blink three times and say redrum six times, slowing pull your face away from the screen and the image will appear. it is an albino cow eating snow in a blizzard.

English Translation - White Avatar. No picture, no cow, no snow, no blizzard. But really, WHO CARES! :mrgreen:

[retailguy]

I can be, if you want me to be. It seems to be a name and persona that are available on here.

After all, who really is anyone on these boards?
We are who we say we are, nothing more.
Patler is Patler.
Shamrockfan is Shamrockfan.
I am me, and in reality I am neither "Patler" nor "Shamrockfan".

The JSO Packers forum, the CE forum and Packerrats are different environments, different false worlds so to speak. Does Patler, whoever portrays him, even belong here? He seems to still post occassionally on the JSO forum. I guess he will decide, and then everyone will know if he is or is not Shamrockfan as well.


I knew it was you - "DUDE". :lol: