Get rid of the extra point

[red]

i got to thinking about this last night. is there any less exciting or anti-climatic moment then an extra point?

99.9 percent of the time its good, and i would guess many of us don't even watch them. I'm usually still celebrating the much more exciting touchdown or getting another beer, or taking a piss.

i mean who the hell decided that a team had to be given a chance for 1 extra point after just scoring 6?

i would say get rid of the extra point attempt. make TD's worth 7 points if you need to keep the 7 point fetish.

or you could make teams go for 2 every time, that would be more exciting

or you could make a rule stating that a player that was on the field for the TD must kick the extra point, that could be fun.

or my favorite. this is america, we love to gamble. you can choose if you want to try an extra point. if you make it you get 1 point, however if you miss, you lose the 6 points you just scored and the opposing team then gets the ball.

i'm starting this movement, join with me. lets get rid of the most worthless moment in football (yes, even more so then the kneel down)

[vince]

I'll sign the petition.

[gbgary]

no...gotta keep it. it's a decider sometimes.

[Tony Oday]

Keep it

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I kind of like the idea of losing the touchdown if you miss it.

[TravisWilliams23]

Good points Red. I did some research on it and came up with this:

Football borrowed this convention from rugby. In early football, as in early rugby, the touchdown itself didn't award any points. The whole purpose of scoring the try/touchdown was to give your team the opportunity to take a shot at the goalposts.

In 1883, when a numerical point system was introduced in football, a touchdown became worth four points, but the "extra point" was worth just as much. It wasn't reduced to a single point until 1897. Now it's almost considered an afterthought, even though it was originally the whole point of scoring a touchdown/try in the first place!

But your right. It's evolved to getting a beer or taking a piss!

[bobblehead]

Ok Red, I like your points about how worthless it is as it stands, but how about going another route. Eliminate the PAT, but put in a 3 point option of kicking a 53 yarder (or something similar). Big leg kickers gain value. Going for 2 vs. 3 becomes mathematical during the game, but strategic towards the end.

I agree that the simple chip PAT isn't exciting, is acedemic and nothing would be lost if you eliminate it. Making it 2pts only would be cool, but adding a longer 3 point possibility would be really cool. Or maybe you could have more options....going for a 3 point conversion from the 8 yard line or a 2 point PAT from the 40ish yard line. Get rid of the single point and put in a couple of 2 and 3 point options.

[Tarlam!]

That's an eye opener Brew! Even I didn't know that, and I always wondered why we scored a "try". The term touchdown is exclusive to the American game.

Another MAJOR difference is it is not sufficient to simply break the plain with the ball to score a 4 pointer; it indeed must be grounded, and by that, I mean the ball must actually be brought into contact with the ground beyond the plain whilst the scorer is in clear possession. It may not bounce or be dropped onto the ground despite being in clear posessoin of the egg.

Grounding for a TD in the American game doesn't make any sense, it would change the game completely. In Rugby, it's justified IMO. I wonder what KY and Nutz think as ex Rugby stars.

I like the idea of being forced to go for 2 or, if the miss the PAT kick, they lose a point. I'd sign up for that!

[Joemailman]

I like the idea they have now of teams choosing between 1 and 2 extra points. I do think they should do something to make it less automatic. Either move it back, or change the rules to give teams a better chance to block the kick.

[red]

great stuff trav.

i knew it came from rugby, but i had no clue about the rest of the history. very interesting. that really helps make the connection between rugby and soccer, i never really understood how they could both come from the same game.

now tar. i thought touchdown was a rugby term that the american game borrowed. isn't that what they call in when a rugby player crosses the line and puts the ball down? (i have no clue how rugby works, thats just what i read)

[mraynrand]

I like the one point kick at 40 yards, 2 point at 50 (maybe 3 from 60 - total desperation or advantage for strong legged kickers). I'd like to see more 2 point attempts.

[Tarlam!]

No Red, we call it a try. Now I know why. It has been something I've asked myself for 40 years (I started playing at 7).

Many don't know this, but there are actually two codes of Rugby. Rugby Union and Rugby League. Early last century, There was only Union and it was strictly amatuer and very upper class. Then a split came and the professional league code was introduced. Most Americans only know the Union code, the fast flowing, strategic kicking game. 15 players per team. In many ways more disciplined, but extremely brutal.

The League code is almost a totally different game in that, it is not free flowing or strategical kicking. That code has the same 4 down system as the American game, except, you don't get another set of downs. You get 4 socalled tackles to get it done. On 4th, it is very dependant on where your field position is as to what you do next. That's why most League fans (Tar raises hand) find it far easier to grasp the rules of American Football. It is a stop/start game. 13 Players per team

[Tarlam!]

great stuff trav.

that really helps make the connection between rugby and soccer, i never really understood how they could both come from the same game.


Actually, Football came first. Then, at an elite school in Rugby, a boy picked up the ball and ran with it And Rugby Football was born. It was only played by the upper class. The commoners continued playing Traditional football. American Football, a derivative of Rugby Football, is actually known as Gridiron in Australia.

http://www.blurtit.com/q243339.html The proper name of what most the world call "football" and the Americans call "soccer" is association football. The word "soccer" comes from an alteration of "assoc.", which is an abbreviation of "association football" (as opposed to Rugby or Gaelic football, etc).

The use of the term can be traced back to about 1880: it's documented as soccer or socca in 1889, and socker in 1891. Soccer seemed have become the most common phrase by 1895. Originally it was only university slang; it was habitual for English university students in the 1880s to abreviate any word and then add on 'er' or 'ers' to it (so breakfast became brekkers, or rugby became ruggers). Because this linguistic habit belonged to an elite social group is probably why the name soccer never caught on among the masses in most of the world. Perhaps it would never have caught on in the United States, except that Americans already had their own preferred 'football' game.

Here's wiki on the origins of the pigskin:The Ball

Richard Lindon (1816 - 1887) and William Gilbert (1799-1877) started making balls for Rugby school out of hand stitched, four-panel, leather casings and pigs’ bladders. Both men owned boot and shoe making businesses located close to Rugby school. Originally, Gilbert's business was located at 19 High Street and Lindon lived next door as a young man at number 20 . The High street led directly to Rugby schools quad entrance which is where the boys played football (quad ball) before Rugby school gained its playing fields


They turned their skills to the making of balls for the boys of Rugby school and by the 1850's William Gilbert and Richard Lindon, were the two main suppliers of the pig's bladder & leather clad balls to the boys of Rugby School.

Shape and Size

In fact it is the shape of the pigs bladder which is reputed to have given the rugby ball it's distinctive oval shape although balls of those days were more plum shape than oval. The balls also varied in size in the beginning depending upon how large the pig’s bladder was.

In those early days it was necessary to ask for volunteers to inflate the ball for it was not a job that was sought after. The pigs bladder would be blown up while still in its very smelly ‘green state’ solely by lung power down the snapped stem of a clay pipe which was inserted into the opening of the bladder.

There is no record as to when the ball became less round and more oval in shape but there is a reference in Tom Brown's school days by Thomas Hughes, an old boy from Rugby school, i.e. "the new ball you may see lie there, quite by itself, in the middle, pointing towards the school goal" which indicates that the ball had become more oval by 1835 when the game was supposed to have taken place

[bobblehead]

I like the one point kick at 40 yards, 2 point at 50 (maybe 3 from 60 - total desperation or advantage for strong legged kickers). I'd like to see more 2 point attempts.

How about a free kick from 60 for 3

[Deputy Nutz]

a 20 yard pat hold no intrique in the game. 50 years ago when kickers had a steel toe boot on their kicking foot made the pat a little more compelling

[red]

How about a free kick from 60 for 3

maybe we're getting somewhere here

an extra point attempt from the 40 WITH nets on each side of the uprights like arena football. if its no good then a return man can grab the ball and run. if its good, then the other team gets the ball at the 20.

that would combine the extra point and the kickoff eliminating at least one commercial break per score

[MJZiggy]

that would combine the extra point and the kickoff eliminating at least one commercial break per score

Which is exactly why it would never happen.

[Tarlam!]

a 20 yard pat hold no intrique in the game. 50 years ago when kickers had a steel toe boot on their kicking foot made the pat a little more compelling

What's your opinion? Should something bechanged? If so, to what?

[Guiness]

Ok Red, I like your points about how worthless it is as it stands, but how about going another route. Eliminate the PAT, but put in a 3 point option of kicking a 53 yarder (or something similar). Big leg kickers gain value. Going for 2 vs. 3 becomes mathematical during the game, but strategic towards the end.

I agree that the simple chip PAT isn't exciting, is acedemic and nothing would be lost if you eliminate it. Making it 2pts only would be cool, but adding a longer 3 point possibility would be really cool. Or maybe you could have more options....going for a 3 point conversion from the 8 yard line or a 2 point PAT from the 40ish yard line. Get rid of the single point and put in a couple of 2 and 3 point options.

I like this option. It would replace that annoying little sheet coaches use to decide if they're going to go for it with a small paperback!

[get louder at lambeau]

it was habitual for English university students in the 1880s to abreviate any word and then add on 'er' or 'ers' to it (so breakfast became brekkers, or rugby became ruggers).

What a bunch of douchers.

[Fritz]

And getting buttf*!%$# became getting buggered.

As for the extra point, the very safe NFL might agree to at least move the attempt back fifteen yards. Make it at least a little interesting, especially in bad weather games.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Get rid of the holders. Death to holders! Make them do a drop kick, which is a much more exciting and athletic play. It will also increase 2-point attempts, and what's not to like about that?

[MadtownPacker]

Great idea!

I just added to your rating (the green block above you avatar). I doubt anyone else will.

[Harlan Huckleby]

how do i get my bad reputation back? this system only allows you to approve of somebody, just like the Montessori school system where every child is a winner.

[RashanGary]

how do i get my bad reputation back? this system only allows you to approve of somebody, just like the Montessori school system where every child is a winner.


It's official, most of the trouble makers are back, except Tyrone and Tank.

[Tarlam!]

It's official, most of the trouble makers are back, except Tyrone and Tank.

I miss Bigguns

[Joemailman]

how do i get my bad reputation back? this system only allows you to approve of somebody, just like the Montessori school system where every child is a winner.

Great post Harlan. One of the best I've ever read. You are in the zone man.

[Tarlam!]

Great post Harlan. One of the best I've ever read. You are in the zone man.

BOMNF!

[Guiness]

Get rid of the holders. Death to holders! Make them do a drop kick, which is a much more exciting and athletic play. It will also increase 2-point attempts, and what's not to like about that?

Ok, this I like a lot.

I'm too lazy to look - what is the actual rule dealing with the Flutie drop kick? I believe that is done instead of a punt or going for it on 4th, right? What's the advantage of doing that over kicking a FG?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Jsz-fSNd4

[Tarlam!]

I'm too lazy to look - what is the actual rule dealing with the Flutie drop kick? I believe that is done instead of a punt or going for it on 4th, right? What's the advantage of doing that over kicking a FG?

American and Canadian football

In both American football and Canadian football, one method of scoring a field goal or extra point is by drop-kicking the football through the goal.

The drop kick was often used in early football as a surprise tactic: The ball would be snapped or lateraled to a back, who would perhaps fake a run or pass, but then would kick the field goal instead. This method of scoring worked well in the 1920s and 1930s, when the football was rounder at the ends (similar to a modern rugby ball). Early football stars such as Jim Thorpe, Paddy Driscoll and Al Bloodgood were skilled drop-kickers; Driscoll in 1925 and Bloodgood in 1926 hold a tied NFL record of four drop-kicked field goals in a single game.[4]

In 1934, the ball was made more pointed at the ends. This made passing the ball easier, as was its intent, but made the drop kick obsolete, as the more pointed ball did not bounce up from the ground reliably. The drop kick was supplanted by the place kick, which cannot be attempted out of a formation generally used as a running or passing set. The drop kick remains in the rules, but is seldom seen, and rarely effective when attempted.

In popular media, a drop kick was successfully attempted in the Burt Reynolds film The Longest Yard, with Reynolds' character explaining its proper name and point value to a player (Ray Nitschke's character) on the opposing team.

In Canadian football (and, until 1998, the National Football League as well) the drop kick can be taken from any point on the field, unlike placekicks, which must be attempted behind the line of scrimmage.

[edit]American football
The only successful drop kick in the last sixty-plus years in the NFL was by Doug Flutie, the backup quarterback of the New England Patriots, against the Miami Dolphins on January 1, 2006, for an extra point after a touchdown.

Flutie had estimated "an 80 percent chance" of making the drop kick,[5] which was called to give Flutie, 43 at the time, the opportunity to make a historic kick in his final NFL game. (In fact, the drop kick was his last play in the NFL.) After the game, New England coach Bill Belichick said, "I think Doug deserves it,"[6] and Flutie said "I just thanked him for the opportunity."[5]

The last successful drop kick in the NFL before that was executed by Ray "Scooter" McLean of the Chicago Bears in their 37-9 victory over the New York Giants on December 21, 1941 in the NFL championship game at Chicago's Wrigley Field. Though it was not part of the NFL at the time, the All-America Football Conference saw its last drop kick November 28, 1948 when Joe Vetrano of the San Francisco 49ers drop kicked an extra point after a muffed snap against the Cleveland Browns.[7]

Dallas Cowboys punter Mat McBriar attempted a maneuver similar to a drop kick during the 2010 Thanksgiving Classic after a botched punt attempt, but the ball bounced several times before the kick and the sequence of events is officially recorded as a fumble, followed by an illegal kick, with the fumble being recovered by the New Orleans Saints 29 yards downfield from the spot of the kick. The Saints declined the illegal kick penalty.[8][9]

The last successful drop kick extra point in the NCAA was by Aaron Fitzgerald of the University of LaVerne on November 10, 1990 against Claremont-Mudd-Scripps.[10]

[Tarlam!]

You owe me 35 seconds, Guin!

[Tarlam!]

Taken from the same wiki article, this sounds appealing:

Arena football

In Arena football, a drop-kicked extra point counts for two points rather than one; a drop-kicked field goal counts for four points rather than three.[11]

[edit]

[mraynrand]

Get rid of the holders. Death to holders! Make them do a drop kick, which is a much more exciting and athletic play. It will also increase 2-point attempts, and what's not to like about that?

I couldn't agree more. Hey, wait, this isn't FYI!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Great post Harlan. One of the best I've ever read. You are in the zone man.
from a lesser man I would take this as sarcasm. what I hear from you is "duh, WINNING!"

drop kicking a pointy-pointy ball is no mean feat, but if my brother taught himself to do it, so I'm guessing a pro athlete can work it out. You don't let the ball bounce like the WIKI article suggests from the old days, you try to make contact just as it touches the ground. Maybe my brother kicking in the back yard was a little different than a kicker facing rushing linemen. I expect there will be a rash of kickers shitting themselves, but that's part of the fun.

[Tarlam!]

Under the rigorous supervision a fellow PR forum HOFer, I purchased an official, NFL-blessed, pointy-pointy ball. I have established that I can not only catch the damned thing when It is thrown to me by someone qualified to do so, but I can punt it rather well, punt a rugby style bomb with It well and, drop kick It rather accurately. Having said that, there were no 300lb defenders trying to decapitate me in the process.

Teams that have stadiums with natural grass surfaces will eventually gain an advantage over artificial surface teams, because they will have more practice opportunities. This is good thing.

[Bossman641]

With no extra point we would miss moments like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTGco82JKHo

[red]

All i gotta say is, Great minds

i've read some of these arguments before from an equally wise man :)

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/23/bill-belichick-doesnt-see-the-point-in-extra-points/

[swede]

Actually, Football came first. Then, at an elite school in Rugby, a boy picked up the ball and ran with it And Rugby Football was born.

In 1970 at Huntley Elementary School, which was only elite in the sense that it was way better than Franklin Elementary, a boy from Mrs. Timmers' class picked up a ball and ran with it a short distance before 8 classmates pulled him to the ground and pounded his back with their fists until he ejected the ball out of the mob. The mob then chased the guy that picked it up, chased him down, and pummeled him until HE *ejected the ball. Thus, a game called **"Kill the Guy with the Ball" was born. "Rugby"..."Kill the Guy with the Ball"...sometimes it's all in the marketing.

*Ejecting the ball before the mob could catch you was considered bad form, as premature ejaculation universally is.

**It actually wasn't called "Kill the Guy with the Ball", but "Smear the Queer" is too intolerant for modern use.

[swede]

To the point, extra-wise, I'm generally in favor of conserving the game's rules as they stand now. It is a cool notion to offer more points for the 50 yard extra point, but after 59 minutes of tough, muddy, bloody, Bears/Packer football I would hate to see a Bears player in clean pants mince on to the field and beat us with a 3 point extra try.

[VermontPackFan]

Leave it. But lets make it more difficult so its not automatic. How about spotting the ball on the 25 yard line after a TD which makes it a 42 yard extra point attempt?

[bobblehead]

With no extra point we would miss moments like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTGco82JKHo

That isn't irony, but its fucking hilarious.

[KYPack]

Good one, Bobble.

Man, I totally forgot about that play.

John Carney probably remembers it pretty good.

[NewsBruin]

Then would you adjust the number of points for a team scoring a 25-yard touchdown on one play? If not, would you have the offensive team declare whether it was going for a kick or TD play? If so, would the team get to run a scrimmage play from the 10, giving away its choice? If so, would a kicking team still be able to try a scrimmage play from kicking distance? If so, would their TD still score them 2 points?

There's not a lot of difference between "it just makes sense" and "it's gimmicky as all hell."

[King Friday]

42 yards is a bit too far IMO. I think the average for 40-49 yard FGs is around 60%...so I would expect between 75 and 80% for a 42 yard kick. I think we want to see more XPs converted than that...probably around 90%. A 30 or 35 yard kick probably makes more sense.

[pbmax]

In 1970 at Huntley Elementary School, which was only elite in the sense that it was way better than Franklin Elementary, a boy from Mrs. Timmers' class picked up a ball and ran with it a short distance before 8 classmates pulled him to the ground and pounded his back with their fists until he ejected the ball out of the mob. The mob then chased the guy that picked it up, chased him down, and pummeled him until HE *ejected the ball. Thus, a game called **"Kill the Guy with the Ball" was born. "Rugby"..."Kill the Guy with the Ball"...sometimes it's all in the marketing.

*Ejecting the ball before the mob could catch you was considered bad form, as premature ejaculation universally is.

**It actually wasn't called "Kill the Guy with the Ball", but "Smear the Queer" is too intolerant for modern use.

It was actually "Smear the Queer" when I went to school a long, long time ago and that name was protested. We changed it to "Kill The Guy" and it passed muster. Thus began Hollywood's new movie rating system.

[Lurker64]

Personally, I'd like to see teams be presented with a choice of "1 point after a touchdown, no play necessary" or "going for 2" and move the 2-point conversion starting line to the 1, so that teams would actually be tempted to go for 2 more often.