Defensive line depth

[Harlan Huckleby]

CJ Wilson reportedly not playing well so far. Mike Neal - not fully recovered from injury, an unproven player.

We'll have to see how it shakes out. Maybe one of the rookies makes the team. I'm not thrilled by the defensive line mix. Not sure if Green was a one month wonder or still has endurance at 32. I understand letting Cullen Jenkins go, except do we really have his replacement in the wings?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I haven't heard anything about Wilson not playing well. Neal just got back from injury, so let's see how his recovery goes. I really like Neal long-term--provided he stays healthy. Not a lot is asked of 3-4 DEs, so I don't feel too bad about not having a stud there. Look how much time both Jenkins and Neal missed last year, and we hardly missed a beat. We have question marks at OG and DE (in a 3-4). To me, if you are going to have a couple of question marks, those are two positions to have them at.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Friday camp report, http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/126991793.html

"If defensive end C.J. Wilson doesn't pick up his play, he's going to be in danger of losing his spot on the roster. Wilson had a bad day in one-on-one pass rush drills, getting stymied three times, once by guard Josh Sitton, once by guard Evan Dietrich- Smith and once by guard T.J. Lang. Each time Wilson made his move and then basically got stopped in his tracks. Earlier in camp, Wilson admitted he had to improve his pass rushing skills and worked all off-season on gaining quickness. But in the first week of practice he's been nothing more than a guy playing the run. The Packers are looking for a player to team with B.J. Raji in the middle on third downs, and while second-year pro Mike Neal is the favorite, someone else is going to have to emerge to back up both men."

[hoosier]

I understand letting Cullen Jenkins go, except do we really have his replacement in the wings?

To me it seems likely that TT, MM and his staff figured that Jenkins is really just a one dimensional player at this point (Wilson or Green give as much or more against the run) and that he's only going to be able to go for 10 or so games per year. So what does the guy who replaces him have to do to qualify as his replacement? Assuming Raji continues to develop, he seems likely to provide as much push inside on passing downs as Jenkins did, and that means that Cullen's replacement just has to be the third best pass rusher (and a credible threat).

[Harlan Huckleby]

I really like Neal long-term--provided he stays healthy.
He hasn't played enough to make a judgement. I suppose you are right that the 3-4 ends mostly have to be stout, and Neal is known for being strong.


Look how much time both Jenkins and Neal missed last year, and we hardly missed a beat. Jenkins' return helped a lot in the playoff run.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So what does the guy who replaces him have to do to qualify as his replacement? generate some pass rush on 3rd down

[rbaloha1]

IMO the depth is fine. The youngsters shall emerge. Wynn looks good during family night.

[hoosier]

generate some pass rush on 3rd down

Raji will do that, and possibly better than Jenkins did last year. At the very least he will do it consistently (knock on wood...). Neal/Wilson has to provide just enough so the opposing offense can't consistently provide help against both Matthews and Raji.

I don't know either if they have Jenkins's replacement on the roster. I agree that Neal is still an unknown. A promising unknown. But in the end it doesn't really matter, because Jenkins is on the wrong side of 30 and re-signing him would just have curtailed the development of the guys behind him, which in TTs scheme for team-building is a bad idea. If it turns out that Jenkins's replacement is not on the team, I foresee one of three outcomes: either Capers will have to blitz more, or the pass rush will decline and the pass defense will suffer and the Packers will have to make up for it in other areas (improved offense b/c of Finley's return and Cobb's dynamism) or the pass rush will decline, etc., and the Packers will suffer with it. I predict that, whether Neal emerges as a younger version of Jenkins or not, the Packers will still finish the regular season better than last year's 10-6.

[LEWCWA]

JH to save the day!!!

[wist43]

Well, it certainly is a serious issue... I thought they were thin there last year. I loved Jenkins as a player, but understand why he wasn't resigned... but all TT did was draft Guy.

They've really only got 3 viable, NFL starting calibur DL on the roster... Pickett, Raji, and Neal. Depth is pathetic. They got away with it last year b/c Raji played like Superman, they got a lot out of Green, and Capers played Mr. Wizard with fronts that had 2 DL on the field.

TT is going to have to pick up at least a couple of bodies off of the waiver wire, or swing a low level trade or two at the cut to 53.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Friday camp report, http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/126991793.html

"If defensive end C.J. Wilson doesn't pick up his play, he's going to be in danger of losing his spot on the roster. Wilson had a bad day in one-on-one pass rush drills, getting stymied three times, once by guard Josh Sitton, once by guard Evan Dietrich- Smith and once by guard T.J. Lang. Each time Wilson made his move and then basically got stopped in his tracks. Earlier in camp, Wilson admitted he had to improve his pass rushing skills and worked all off-season on gaining quickness. But in the first week of practice he's been nothing more than a guy playing the run. The Packers are looking for a player to team with B.J. Raji in the middle on third downs, and while second-year pro Mike Neal is the favorite, someone else is going to have to emerge to back up both men."

I don't buy this. We hear these stories early in camp every year. Some guy struggles the first few days, and suddenly he might not make the team. I doubt Thompson cuts a second year player who proved to be a solid contributor on a Super Bowl team during his rookie year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think that reporter's observations about CJ's play are right. I read negative tweets about CJ from GB Gazette reporters on other days.

Odds are you correct that Wilson will make the team. I thought Wilson played pretty well last year, maybe he is having a Super Bowl hangover.

[3irty1]

If I had to lay out the strengths of our guys it would be as follows:

Raji, impossible to move backwards, pass rushing monster. As good of a Nose tackle as exists in the NFL.

Neal is a passrusher. He's physically gifted with a crazy combo of speed and strength and has a few pass rush moves as well. Not huge enough or all that stout against the run. A great replacement for Jenkins if it works out.

Pickett is an example of doing what you've got to do to play your best 3. His best position is probably NT--the only thing he does really well is never move backwards. He's a good enough of a run defender to deserve that LDE spot. If something happened to Raji though, I think Pickett would move over.

Green reminds me of a poor man's jolly . He's surprisingly disruptive despite not being much of pass rusher but absolutely swallows the run. Green does it with size, Jolly did it with perfect technique.

Wilson has John Jolly upside. He can move well and has a good motor to make plays in pursuit and he's a dominant run defender for his size. He may never be a pass rusher per se but if he can find other ways to just be disruptive He'll earn that LDE spot soon.

Wynn is probably the third best pass rusher on this list and is likely to make the team just as a backup to Neal IMO. His real problem is that he's terrible against the run. He plays like he's 260 lbs. This is the area where young DT's tend to improve the most so I have high hopes for Wynn to become a complete player. Until he does he's not very useful to us, we just don't have subpackages that use this skillset. He's most useful in a 4-3 at DE or as a DE in a 3-3-5.

[vince]

I think Partial has taken over Harlan's account. You're fully ready to dismiss Wilson after a pretty solid rookie season but a poor handful of 1 on 1 drills - but haven't seen enough of Neal after a good camp, four solid games and solid start of the second camp.

[Lurker64]

Well, it certainly is a serious issue... I thought they were thin there last year

You're pretty much going to feel thin at the DL position as long as we play a 3-4 defense, since you only ever keep 6 on your roster, and only dress 5 on game days. We play on average 2.25 defensive linemen per defensive snap. You don't need a ton of high end guys to make this defense work. Unspectacular worker-bees are pretty much exactly what you want from your rotation DL.

There was honestly never a single position in the first 5 rounds of the draft when we picked and there was a 5-technique DE who was anywhere close to the BPA. Nor was there a single 5-tech DE available in free agency who would have been a good signing.

[wist43]

Haven't paid close enough attn to player movement or the draft to know what was available... so I'll take ur word for that, but surely some guys will be coming available at cut down.

And while DL takes a back seat to LB's in a 3-4, you still need 5 roster worthy guys to man those spots - we only have 3; and it's not like we're fielding a wrecking crew at LB either; Matthews is Pro Bowl, Hawk has stepped it up to be slightly above average, same with Bishop, Walden was okay. An okay unit, but outside of Matthews, nothing to write home about, and depth is pretty much nothing.

Bottom line, front seven is okay with what is going on the field, but just okay... backups look like hamburger flippers.

Has Guy shown anything yet?? Thought he looked like he had some upside when I looked at him after the draft.

[Patler]

Has Guy shown anything yet?? Thought he looked like he had some upside when I looked at him after the draft.

Unfortunately, he got a concussion a coupe days ago, and has been held out.

[bobblehead]

Well, it certainly is a serious issue... I thought they were thin there last year. I loved Jenkins as a player, but understand why he wasn't resigned... but all TT did was draft Guy.

They've really only got 3 viable, NFL starting calibur DL on the roster... Pickett, Raji, and Neal. Depth is pathetic. They got away with it last year b/c Raji played like Superman, they got a lot out of Green, and Capers played Mr. Wizard with fronts that had 2 DL on the field.

TT is going to have to pick up at least a couple of bodies off of the waiver wire, or swing a low level trade or two at the cut to 53.

You mean there are 3-4 teams who have more than 3 viable starting types on the DL? I understand the fans desire to be 53 deep with starters, but its simply not reasonable.

[packrulz]

Friday camp report, http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/126991793.html

"If defensive end C.J. Wilson doesn't pick up his play, he's going to be in danger of losing his spot on the roster. Wilson had a bad day in one-on-one pass rush drills, getting stymied three times, once by guard Josh Sitton, once by guard Evan Dietrich- Smith and once by guard T.J. Lang. Each time Wilson made his move and then basically got stopped in his tracks. Earlier in camp, Wilson admitted he had to improve his pass rushing skills and worked all off-season on gaining quickness. But in the first week of practice he's been nothing more than a guy playing the run. The Packers are looking for a player to team with B.J. Raji in the middle on third downs, and while second-year pro Mike Neal is the favorite, someone else is going to have to emerge to back up both men."

In this defense, the DE's aren't really expected to rush the passer that much, job #1 is stuffing the run. The DE's are supposed to occupy blockers so the LB's are free to roam, if they can rush the passer, it's a bonus. I doubt CJ will lose his roster spot. TT also brought in Guy and a couple other rookies to compete: 60 Donaldson, Chris DE 6-1 300 22 R Oklahoma State, & 65 Joseph, Eli DE 6-2 290 23 R Temple.
I like Jason Wilde's blog better, a bit more objective: http://espnmilwaukee.com/page.php?page_id=278

[wist43]

You mean there are 3-4 teams who have more than 3 viable starting types on the DL? I understand the fans desire to be 53 deep with starters, but its simply not reasonable.

Raji played a ton of snaps last year, and Capers used him very creatively... and while I agree that a team usually won't roster 5-6 "starting calibur" DL in a 3-4... I certainly want 4 such players, b/c everyone is going to play significant snaps in this day and age of rotation.

We have 3 NFL calibur starters - and no depth. That's the point - no depth. Green is okay, but is 32 and a "fat guy"... don't like the odds of him holding up all year.

If Raji were to go down??? Our season would pretty much be over at that point... as I've said, he was the team co-MVP right along with Rodgers last year. We don't win the SB last year w/o Raji.

[rbaloha1]

In this defense, the DE's aren't really expected to rush the passer that much, job #1 is stuffing the run. The DE's are supposed to occupy blockers so the LB's are free to roam, if they can rush the passer, it's a bonus. I doubt CJ will lose his roster spot. TT also brought in Guy and a couple other rookies to compete: 60 Donaldson, Chris DE 6-1 300 22 R Oklahoma State, & 65 Joseph, Eli DE 6-2 290 23 R Temple.
I like Jason Wilde's blog better, a bit more objective: http://espnmilwaukee.com/page.php?page_id=278

This is correct. The DEs read the o-line and tie-up blockers in order for the backers to flow to the ball.

IMO the Packers have enough bodies to accomplish this. Pass rush is usually generated by innovative blitz packages -- is matthews blitzing or dropping back? what about woodson? collins? cb blitz, ilb blitzes, etc.?

cj was a luxury due to the a quick first step and spin moves. (maybe neal is capable). raji creates movement allowing for stunts and/or gaps for c-g blitzes.

IMO the d-line depth is fine since as lurker mentioned this scheme does not require as many d-line bodies.

Its the back-up ilb that is more of a concern.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think Partial has taken over Harlan's account. You're fully ready to dismiss Wilson after a pretty solid rookie season but a poor handful of 1 on 1 drills - but haven't seen enough of Neal after a good camp, four solid games and solid start of the second camp.

CJ Wilson has played poorly in the first week of camp, not a couple of drills, according to several reporters. I haven't dismissed him for the season, you have dismissed the reports.

NEal has a solid start this year!? He hasn't participated in live contact because of his shoulder recovery. I really don't remember much about NEal from last year, other than he looked physically strong, so am reserving judgement.

[mission]

Neal-Raji-Picket

Green and Wilson active on gameday. Seems fine to me.

[pbmax]

You have to list Green as starting capable as he was the starter in base down the stretch and in the playoffs. In fact, the base 3 lineman as of the last practice notes I read had Raji and Green at end and Pickett back in the middle. Green as starter might not be the best scenario given his age and history, but he will not be subject to a high percentage of snaps and his is pretty cost efficient.

Jenkins was the quasi-fourth starting lineman since he played the majority of nickel snaps. And it is those snaps that CJ Wilson is ill equipped for. If the only open spot for a reserve D lineman is pass rusher, he isn't going to make it.

But Harv is right in that Wilson would be expected to backup the ends in base. He would be in danger only if Neal is not available to start alongside Raji in nickel situations and the team needs to carry another interior pass rush threat. The battle to replace Jenkins is all about nickel pass rushing from the interior, not starting DE in base 3-4.

[pbmax]

This is correct. The DEs read the o-line and tie-up blockers in order for the backers to flow to the ball.

IMO the Packers have enough bodies to accomplish this. Pass rush is usually generated by innovative blitz packages -- is matthews blitzing or dropping back? what about woodson? collins? cb blitz, ilb blitzes, etc.?

cj was a luxury due to the a quick first step and spin moves. (maybe neal is capable). raji creates movement allowing for stunts and/or gaps for c-g blitzes.

IMO the d-line depth is fine since as lurker mentioned this scheme does not require as many d-line bodies.

Its the back-up ilb that is more of a concern.

Perhaps the single most important pass rush of the Super Bowl was generated by an interior D lineman that pressured Roethlisberger into a bad throw. No team can have everything, so losing Jenkins isn't a catastrophe. But it does hurt. And finding his replacement is important in beating very good teams.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Green appeared to be moving well last night. Of course that was about a 15 minute test, but he was surprisingly quick.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The battle to replace Jenkins is all about nickel pass rushing from the interior.


Bingo. I don't remember Neal being particularly slippery, but we shall see.

[pbmax]

Bingo. I don't remember Neal being particularly slippery, but we shall see.

Its supposed to be one of his strengths, but it very much depends on his recovery at this point. Then we get to see whether he can do it.

[pbmax]

A possible answer that I seriously doubt will happen barring injury:


Trevor Pryce: It was a shame Pryce just couldn’t find the playing time (260 snaps including playoffs, at the Jets), because he still has an exceptional burst off the ball, and can generate pressure.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/08/06/free-agency-2011-defense-whos-left/

Suggested Team: Green Bay Packers – they could use a solid veteran to come in on a line that is lacking in numbers. Pryce could fill the third down role left by Cullen Jenkins.

[wist43]

I like Neal to fill Jenkins role... but still, I'm not comfortable playing the amoeba living organism defense, i.e. the vaunted 2-whatever, everybody standing up roaming around defense 30% of the time, b/c the few capable DL we have are on life support trying to catch their breath.

[wist43]

Bingo. I don't remember Neal being particularly slippery, but we shall see.


Its supposed to be one of his strengths, but it very much depends on his recovery at this point. Then we get to see whether he can do it.

I like Neal a lot... think he can be a hell of a player. Be interesting to see how he comes back from the injury.

[vince]

You're obviously not going to have any more than 2-deep across the d-line on the 53-man roster. Last year, the Packers played 70% - 75% 2 d-linemen, depending on who's stats you want to follow. Raji, Neal, Wilson, and Wynn take them 2 deep there. All showed capability to get to the QB last year. Both Wynn and Wilson flashed some last year. Wynn could be upgraded because he's undersized in base 3-4 d, but he likely would never play there.

In their base 3-DL rotation, they add Pickett and Green with Raji backed up by Neal, Wilson and Wynn, which gives them the biggest d-line in the league against the run.

It's legitimate to argue that Neal will never be as good as Jenkins, but I think he can be - and it seems pretty clear that the GM does too. If he is, that's the d-line this team had the #2 ranked D in the league with last year, #1 against the pass, top 5 in sacks - and won the Super Bowl with. If it can be upgraded, great, but I'm not sure there's a bunch to fret about.

[Lurker64]

IMO, all Neal needs to do to be an improvement over Jenkins last year is to stay healthy play within the system. Jenkins gave up quite a few plays because he was pursuing sacks and TFLs more than he was actually playing his designated assignment (this sort of thing is common in a player's contract year, c.f. Corey Williams).

Fans perceptions of Jenkins are distorted by the fact that he gets sacks, but he was largely responsible for a number of poor performances against the run.

[pbmax]

IMO, all Neal needs to do to be an improvement over Jenkins last year is to stay healthy play within the system. Jenkins gave up quite a few plays because he was pursuing sacks and TFLs more than he was actually playing his designated assignment (this sort of thing is common in a player's contract year, c.f. Corey Williams).

Fans perceptions of Jenkins are distorted by the fact that he gets sacks, but he was largely responsible for a number of poor performances against the run.

Are we sure of what his assignment was? And did you notice this is 3-4 or 2-4-5 personnel?

[3irty1]

The Packers have run-stuffing 2-4 packages two that are pretty common on first down that would consist of Raji and a fat man like Pickett or Green.

Those packages obviously won't suffer at all from the loss of Jenkins. Our 3-4 is also first and foremost a situational run-stopping package (in the superbowl we even started with a 4-4) so losing Jenkins won't cramp our style super hard here either. However he was a force on third down and was also athletic and fluid enough to drop into a zone during zone blitzes. Neal and Wynn are my favorites to fill this role.

[bobblehead]

Raji played a ton of snaps last year, and Capers used him very creatively... and while I agree that a team usually won't roster 5-6 "starting calibur" DL in a 3-4... I certainly want 4 such players, b/c everyone is going to play significant snaps in this day and age of rotation.

We have 3 NFL calibur starters - and no depth. That's the point - no depth. Green is okay, but is 32 and a "fat guy"... don't like the odds of him holding up all year.

If Raji were to go down??? Our season would pretty much be over at that point... as I've said, he was the team co-MVP right along with Rodgers last year. We don't win the SB last year w/o Raji.

I agree losing Raji would cripple our D, but so would many teams losing their best defender. I think we are as good at DL as we can reasonably expect. I wish we had signed Jenkins if he would have taken the same offer from us, but I think we have a solid rotation. Always happy to improve, but I do like our talent.

[vince]

From Larry McCarren (http://wearegreenbay.com/trainingcamp-fulltext?nxd_id=7887)

For the Packers to adequately replace Cullen Jenkins, Mike Neal has to be the real deal, and he looked the part tonight. During a run / run defense drill, he destroyed Derek Sherrod. Then during 1 on 1 pass rush, he mixed power and quickness very well. Neal is very strong, shows the blocker a bull rush, then counters the next time with a move. This coming in just his second full practice as Neal is returning from rotator cuff surgery. Encouraging.

[gbpackfan]

Makes me feel great about Neal, but down on Sherrod. I just dont think he is going to be a G. Kinda like a square peg in a round hole. I just keep reading, over and over, that Sherrod is not working out at LG. Not that I blame him, never played there. He just seems to be a T based on his size and skill set. We will see I guess.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm hoping that one of our ROLBs steps up and provides decent pressure. I think that would help a great deal to make up for the loss of Jenkins. We need that rusher opposite Matthews--whether that's Neal, Zombo, Walden, or Jones.

[vince]

It sounds like Capers may be switching up a bit by putting Raji over at RDE opposite Matthews and Neal at LDE next to him. He may just be experimenting but it's good to see the mad scientist playing around a bit at least. I'm confident that the Dom and these d-linemen and olb's can get the job done again regarding pressuring the QB.

[VermontPackFan]

While we may only need 6 and dress 5 on game days, injuries will plague at least one of these guys, besides Wynn is only a warm body. Can anyone say justinharrell or johnjolly? Did Harrell sign with anyone? What is Jolly's league status right now? Short of one of those guys signing, I think we will need to add someone else to the mix.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It sounds like Capers may be switching up a bit by putting Raji over at RDE opposite Matthews and Neal at LDE next to him. He may just be experimenting but it's good to see the mad scientist playing around a bit at least. I'm confident that the Dom and these d-linemen and olb's can get the job done again regarding pressuring the QB.

That's good to hear. I'm glad Capers isn't resting on his laurels, and he's designing new wrinkles. Sounds like a good idea to get Raji and Matthews on opposite sides.

[wist43]

Bottom line is... we need more front 7 talent.

We got by last year b/c Capers did a masterful job at hiding our weaknesses, and Raji played at an All-World level.

Now??? We've lost one of our best front 7 players in Jenkins, and teams have had an offseason to figure out how to handle some of the things Capers was doing last year.

[pbmax]

By the way, someone mentioned Raji is unmovable. That is actually the only mark against him so far. He isn't as stout as Pickett in the middle. He can get moved or turned by doubles. But he will learn. Pickett went through the same thing when Capers arrived.

[Smidgeon]

Makes me feel great about Neal, but down on Sherrod. I just dont think he is going to be a G. Kinda like a square peg in a round hole. I just keep reading, over and over, that Sherrod is not working out at LG. Not that I blame him, never played there. He just seems to be a T based on his size and skill set. We will see I guess.

You know, I think we're starting to get spoiled with TT's first round draft picks:

2005 Aaron Rodgers - Super Bowl MVP
2006 A. J. Hawk - All rookie team
2007 Justin Harrell - Talent, but injured often
2008 - no pick
2009 B. J. Raji - Top 2 or 3 NTs in league
2009 Clay Matthews III - Top 2 or 3 defenders in league
2010 Bryan Bulaga - Solid from day 1
2011 Derek Sherrod - ??

That's a success rate virtually unheard of in the NFL. Even for the first round. I have high hopes for Sherrod. But if he can't hack it as a guard, I'm okay with that.

[smuggler]

Bulaga had a slightly above average to fair first season. He progressed as the season went along. If he comes in and plays like he did in the playoffs from day one 2011 and doesn't improve, I would say he is solid, maybe almost good, but no more.

I'm hoping for a leap in year 2 from Bulaga, but we'll see.

[Smidgeon]

Bulaga had a slightly above average to fair first season. He progressed as the season went along. If he comes in and plays like he did in the playoffs from day one 2011 and doesn't improve, I would say he is solid, maybe almost good, but no more.

I'm hoping for a leap in year 2 from Bulaga, but we'll see.

I didn't say he was all world. I said he was solid. And I think he already made that jump. Apparently he's dominating one on ones, including against the Claymaker.

[Lurker64]

While we may only need 6 and dress 5 on game days, injuries will plague at least one of these guys, besides Wynn is only a warm body.

6 on the roster, 5 active on game days is actually the most we will do barring exceptional circumstances. DL don't play on special teams, so you dress as few of them as you can get away with.

Also, I don't think Wynn is only a warm body. He's actually probably the best natural pass rusher of the DL, he's just not stout or strong enough (or at least hasn't been) in order to merit starting or playing extensively. But he knows what he's doing when trying to get past an OL. Whether he'll ever turn into a player, who knows? But he probably trades off with Howard Green as the healthy scratch this year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Wynn is barely an NFL player.

I'm in a grumpy mood. Looking over the just-released depth chart, the Packers have a solid, stable roster. The starters are pretty much set, with plenty of 2nd stringers good enough to start. EXCEPT THE DEFENSIVE LINE DEPTH. Very marginal players in Wynn, Green and CJ Wilson. Those guys are OK to play 15 snaps, but we're in deep doo-doo if a starter is lost for the season.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Green and Wilson weren't marginal in my eyes last year. Could they be this year? Sure. Based off last year, I'd say both are really solid backups.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Green has looked pretty good, Wilson has taken a step back. Green is a 32-year-old big guy. I wish the team had one more quality player to plug-in in the event of an injury, which is likely after all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, going off training camp reports, then we should be fine. Dunne said Wynn looked good tonight.

[Guiness]

Has there been any movement on Jolly's status? I would have thought some sort of word, yay or nay, would have come down by now. I guess it was an indefinite suspension, so if the league wants to keep him suspended, they just have to keep on doing nothing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't expect him back.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If you look across the roster, I think the Packers could keep rolling with the loss of any player, with the possible exception of the defensive line. The team could win with Matt Flynn. Clay Matthews loss would make the team weaker, but they have guys who can play. I see the drop off from #3 to #4 in the defensive line rotation to be a real cliff. Which of those backups would you be comfortable playing 60 snaps as a starter? Green lacks endurance. Wynn is iffy, IMO. Maybe Wilson.

[hoosier]

If you look across the roster, I think the Packers could keep rolling with the loss of any player, with the possible exception of the defensive line. The team could win with Matt Flynn. Clay Matthews loss would make the team weaker, but they have guys who can play. I see the drop off from #3 to #4 in the defensive line rotation to be a real cliff. Which of those backups would you be comfortable playing 60 snaps as a starter? Green lacks endurance. Wynn is iffy, IMO. Maybe Wilson.

Losing Rodgers, Raji or Matthews for the long haul would very hard to overcome. Flynn might be able to pull a Cassel and lead them to the playoffs, but a Rodgers-less Packers team would clearly be lagging behind Philly, Atlanta and not clearly better than New Orleans and Tampa Bay. Losing Matthews or Raji would make it much easier for the opposing offense to focus on neutralizing one guy on defense.

I would worry much less about losing Pickett or Neal. Green was the de facto starter for the second half of last year and will do just fine when they put three DL on the field. The dropoff from Neal to Wilson or Wynn in the nickel probably isn't that great, unless Neal turns out to be a terror this year.

[mraynrand]

By the way, someone mentioned Raji is unmovable. That is actually the only mark against him so far. He isn't as stout as Pickett in the middle. He can get moved or turned by doubles. But he will learn. Pickett went through the same thing when Capers arrived.

BJ Haji needs to lower that anchor. He's a bit top heavy at times

http://files.myopera.com/0x29a/files/Hadji.png

[vince]

Wilson is a good football player all around. Wynn is a liability against the run, but he won't play in base no matter who gets hurt. They'll bring the Gravedigger back before that happens.

[rbaloha1]

Wilson is a good football player all around. Wynn is a liability against the run, but he won't play in base no matter who gets hurt. They'll bring the Gravedigger back before that happens.

Correct. Wynn is a tweener. Third down rush end only.

[red]

the raji some makes a ton of sense. picket is bigger and seems like more of an immoveable object, where raj
i is a little more athletic.

pickett should make for a perfect nose, and BJ should replace jenkins nicely

[Upnorth]

I like Wilson as a back up, and have no problem with him steping in for awhile, but Greene won't be able to keep up for long if there are any long term injuries. Wynn is Wynn and seems replaceable. Long story short we need another backup besides Wilson if there are long term injuries. I doubt they would look at Jolly, but I would like to see him around.

[VermontPackFan]

If you look across the roster, I think the Packers could keep rolling with the loss of any player, with the possible exception of the defensive line. The team could win with Matt Flynn. Clay Matthews loss would make the team weaker, but they have guys who can play. I see the drop off from #3 to #4 in the defensive line rotation to be a real cliff. Which of those backups would you be comfortable playing 60 snaps as a starter? Green lacks endurance. Wynn is iffy, IMO. Maybe Wilson.

A long term injury to Pickett, Raji or Neal would be devestating to our D. Asking Greene to play more than his situational 15 snaps per game would not be beneficial to anyone. The jury is still out on Wilson and I dont think Wynn has a future in the NFL. But obviously the coaches know more than I do, trust in the backups currently on the roster and decided not to bring Justin Harrell into camp.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Green was the de facto starter for the second half of last year and will do just fine when they put three DL on the field . I wonder how many snaps Greene played last year in any game.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Wilson is a good football player all around. Wynn is a liability against the run, but he won't play in base no matter who gets hurt.
I thought Wilson was pretty decent last year, and he was just a rookie. Not sure why he hasn't done well in camp so far.

[pbmax]

I thought Wilson was pretty decent last year, and he was just a rookie. Not sure why he hasn't done well in camp so far.

Mainly that he is the same guy, and his pass rush has not improved. Its mostly expectations at this point, I don't think he has fallen off the chart yet.

Remember, writers take what coaches say literally when trying to sound knowledgeable. So the improvement from Year 1 to Year 2 is treated like gospel for the purposes of critique.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I doubt they would look at Jolly, but I would like to see him around. I hope they would take Jolly back in heartbeat. His drug problem seemed damn odd and juvenile, not hard core. Easy to drug test him.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I hope they would take Jolly back in heartbeat. His drug problem seemed damn odd and juvenile, not hard core. Easy to drug test him.

Nice edit. It may have been odd and juvenile, but he did it twice. That spells trouble.

[Patler]

It may have been odd and juvenile, but he did it twice. That spells trouble.

I don't know, kids don't always learn from their first mistake. It sometimes takes two for the lesson to sink in.

This whole Jolly issue burns me a little. It seems he would have been treated less harshly if he beat up some guy or his girlfriend; or if he had a pattern of forcing himself on girls; or if he ran a dog fighting ring and went to prison; than he is being treated for drinking a few bottles of cough syrup.

He has already been suspended for a year due to issues relating to an arrest for which the charges have been dropped. He has undergone inpatient treatment. I don't know if he has rehabilitated himself or not, but it would seem that his best chance to turn his life around is if the NFL gives him a chance to do it. It's an easy thing to toss him out again if it turns out that he hasn't changed.

[hoosier]

I wonder how many snaps Greene played last year in any game.

As far as I can tell he played about 65-70 snaps in 9 games. The real question is, on plays when they had three DL on the field, what % of the time was Green one of the three?

[Harlan Huckleby]

As far as I can tell he played about 65-70 snaps in 9 games.
I hope you washed your hands after reaching deep into your anus to pull that out.

[wist43]

I think Jolly is done... wasn't it just a couple of months ago that he got busted again - after he was kind of given a pass on the previous bust???

As a player, I want him back... damn good player.

[Freak Out]

I don't know, kids don't always learn from their first mistake. It sometimes takes two for the lesson to sink in.

This whole Jolly issue burns me a little. It seems he would have been treated less harshly if he beat up some guy or his girlfriend; or if he had a pattern of forcing himself on girls; or if he ran a dog fighting ring and went to prison; than he is being treated for drinking a few bottles of cough syrup.

He has already been suspended for a year due to issues relating to an arrest for which the charges have been dropped. He has undergone inpatient treatment. I don't know if he has rehabilitated himself or not, but it would seem that his best chance to turn his life around is if the NFL gives him a chance to do it. It's an easy thing to toss him out again if it turns out that he hasn't changed.

I have to agree with the sage little dog.....he's done his time so lets get the guy back to work and off the streets. Could he slide again..? Sure....but odds are he straightens out and flies right.

[cheesner]

I have to agree with the sage little dog.....he's done his time so lets get the guy back to work and off the streets. Could he slide again..? Sure....but odds are he straightens out and flies right.

Jolly:

1. Questionable character - possibly lacks will power
2. Big guy
3. 2 years (ish) off from a structured workout/diet program

My bet is that he is way out of shape and will never be able to play football again.

[vince]

Wilson has reportedly had a couple good practices as of late. He started slow, but he seems to be getting back into football/hitting shape after the layoff.

[Harlan Huckleby]

3. 2 years (ish) off from a structured workout/diet program

My bet is that he is way out of shape and will never be able to play football again.

That's a good point. But it's a seperate issue.

It's like this: if Jolly was on the Vikings or Bears, I would agree that he ought to be banned from football for another year. But the fact that he is a Packer cries out for leniency.

[hoosier]

I hope you washed your hands after reaching deep into your anus to pull that out.

Nonsense. I rely only on acute observation, relentless drive to discover, and high order analytical operations. :tup:

[Smidgeon]

Nonsense. I rely only on acute observation, relentless drive to discover, and high order analytical operations. :tup:

And a website.

[hoosier]

That's the discovery part.

[pbmax]

That's the discovery part.

Exactly. Google doesn't Google itself, you know. Someone has to get the work done. :)

[Harlan Huckleby]

I've given TT a pass on the Cullen Jenkins debacle, figuring that the packers just got unlucky with timing. But after reading Dougherty's chat yesterday, maybe TT really did screw this up.


Comment From Bob in Minnetonka: Pete -- Thanks for the chat. I'm still somewhat puzzled that TT did not resign Jenkins--especially if he essentially only got a one year $4-5 million deal with the Eagles. How worried should fans be w/o Jenkins and with Neal getting an MRI on his knee (i.e., his durability)?

Pete Dougherty: Agreed on Jenkins, he came at an incredibly cheap price for a player of his caliber with no immediate long-term commitment -- the big money doesn't kick in until next year, and it's not guaranteed, so he could be cut next February. Going into FA they had no way to know the price would be so low, but when he lasted on the market and the teams dried up, I'm surprised they didn't make a call. Concern with Neal's injury history is more than valid. They need him.

Comment From ChrisChris: Pete, what makes you think Jenkins even wanted to come back after not being shown 'the love' (aka contract) in-season? How do you know Thompson and his staff didn't reach out as free agency opened?

Pete Dougherty: He's said so publicly, a couple times in the offseason he said he was still open to it. He's generally been the kind of guy to speak his mind on such matters, so if he wasn't open to it there's a decent chance he would have said so. Also, I talked to Raji the first week of camp, and he said he spoke with Jenkins after Philadelphia signed him, and he thought Jenkins would have come back if the Packers had made a competitive offer.

[mraynrand]

Perhaps TT made his decision based only on Jenkins past and anticipated future health. Maybe he just figured Jenkins is pretty much done. It didn't seem like all that much to keep him, so it can't be the money. We'll know soon enough if he was right.


Edit: I don't think this post adds much

[Harlan Huckleby]

Perhaps TT made his decision based only on Jenkins past and anticipated future health.

Same thing could be said about NEal, who has injury pattern.

The fact that Jenkins was available for one-year-deal throws the long-term considerations out the window. Jenkins is 30, not 50.

[mraynrand]

Same thing could be said about NEal, who has injury pattern.

More like Harrell, eh? But I get your point. Maybe Patler and you (others?) are right - they expected a higher price and let him go and when the price dropped it was too late to get him back. Screwed the pooch as they say.

[Harlan Huckleby]

when the price dropped it was too late to get him back.

That's the old theory. The new theory (according to Pete Dougherty) is that the Packers had an opportunity to make reasonable offer and didn't bother.

Bring Ted Thompson to the public square and flog him! Umm, actually it's still not so clear, but we can flog now and apologize later if need be.

[Patler]

It's difficult to know who to believe, but in several interviews TT recently has said the Packers were in contact with Jenkins' agent throughout FA, and that it was Jenkins' decision not to come back to GB. I suspect aspects of the offer from the Eagles were better fiinancially than what the Packers offered, and so the agent rebuffed the Packers. The Packers tend to tie salaries of injury-prone players to gameday roster bonuses. If the Eagles 2011 salary is certain, with a potentially big payday after this year, the agent may have preferred it to a less certain salary from the Packers in 2011 and beyond.

Jenkins is a good player, but not a great player. Apparently the entire league has concerns about him for some reason, or the Eagles would not have gotten him as cheaply as they did. Pass rushing DEs usually command lucrative deals. I would have liked to have seen Jenkins back this year, but I can't get overly concerned that he will not be back. I will trust TT to find a replacement or replacements and Capers to compensate for changed ability/performance of the replacement(s).

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jenkins is a good player, but not a great player. Apparently the entire league has concerns about him for some reason, or the Eagles would not have gotten him as cheaply as they did. Pass rushing DEs usually command lucrative deals. I would have liked to have seen Jenkins back this year, but I can't get overly concerned that he will not be back. I will trust TT to find a replacement or replacements and Capers to compensate for changed ability/performance of the replacement(s).

I was watching Jenkins last night in Eagles humblng loss to Pittsburgh. He pretty great at slipping past blockers. Overall, I guess he qualifies as good+.

If CJ Wilson had come into camp and played like a starter, I'd feel better about the situation.

[pbmax]

There is also a question about structure of the deal. Jenkins and his agent got to claim they made a 5 yr./25 million dollar deal with some number guaranteed. the Packers do not do many contracts with 4 years and 21 million dollars of bogus money. If that held true, the agent would have preferred the Eagles offer if only for the PR. And that doesn't even cover Patler's point about injury protection for the team, something the Eagles may not have insisted upon.

And I cannot believe we are still questioning whether letting the aging veteran go is the smart move. It is the smart move and has been proven to be so. Yes, it can leave you with a short term gap, but the variables are all in your favor. Young untested players don't usually get worse. Jenkins will.

[Pugger]

I suspect the Packers were not given the opportunity to counter Philly's offer to Jenkins.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And I cannot believe we are still questioning whether letting the aging veteran go is the smart move .

Are you trying to drive Driver out of town?

There is no magic formula. Ya, generally it works to replace expensive, declining veterans with up-and-comers. In the case of Jenkins, it appears they could have shored-up a team weakness at reasonable cost/commitment. It appears to have been a big mistake.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I suspect the Packers were not given the opportunity to counter Philly's offer to Jenkins.

maybe not. But there is some evidence to the contrary.

[pbmax]

Are you trying to drive Driver out of town?

There is no magic formula. Ya, generally it works to replace expensive, declining veterans with up-and-comers. In the case of Jenkins, it appears they could have shored-up a team weakness at reasonable cost/commitment. It appears to have been a big mistake.

Driver, at least, is still a starter. And even in a bad year, makes starts in almost every game.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jenkins would be far more valuable to this team than Driver.

[pbmax]

Jenkins would be far more valuable to this team than Driver.

Name a play he made in the post season. Or make a case he was more valuable than Green in the last 6 games of the season. Jenkins stood out as the best pass rusher of a poor group of pass rushing DTs. Replacing him is a lower bar than you think.

[mraynrand]

:taunt:
Jenkins would be far more valuable to this team than Driver.

The whole injury aspect throws this into total speculation. Both totally healthy all year: I agree with you. But either one or both could easily miss significant time due to injury (so could any players you pick, I suppose). There is an element of injury guesswork here, that will always make these predictions very difficult. If Jenkins gets hurt early ad often, people will say "See I told you so" and if he stays healthy and productive people will say "See, I told you so." We'll just have to wait and see if it's Jenkins supporters or detractors who get to jeer the others. :taunt: But with injuries, no one will conceded anything anyway, because Jenkins - if he gets injured for Philly, would obviously have stayed healthy in Green Bay, that is, if you're a Jenkins fan!:lol:

[mraynrand]

Name a play he made in the post season. Or make a case he was more valuable than Green in the last 6 games of the season. Jenkins stood out as the best pass rusher of a poor group of pass rushing DTs. Replacing him is a lower bar than you think.

question is whether there are guys on the roster capable of getting over that lower bar!

[pbmax]

question is whether there are guys on the roster capable of getting over that lower bar!

Its hard to argue the depth for pass rush is better - the blue dog has got a point there. But we are set for run stuffing wide bodies. And IF Neal can stay healthy and get backup help by an improved Wynn (who was playing far better even at the end of last season) then I think the answer might be yes, we can get over that low bar. Go team!

[Fritz]

I don't think Howard Green can get over any bar unless it's lying on the ground.

[Yoop]

maybe not. But there is some evidence to the contrary.

we know Jenkins was not happy he didn't get extended last year, he gripped about it openly, that tells us he felt he was worth more than Ted offered, when he didn't get those top money offers he was probably relieved Philly called so he wouldn't have to come back.

[Yoop]

Its hard to argue the depth for pass rush is better - the blue dog has got a point there. But we are set for run stuffing wide bodies. And IF Neal can stay healthy and get backup help by an improved Wynn (who was playing far better even at the end of last season) then I think the answer might be yes, we can get over that low bar. Go team!

hope your right, we could see a second level trade though, would Ted gamble? dont know, finding a pass rushing DT shouldn't be that hard, right? lol. I think where SOL. for one of those.

[Joemailman]

I don't think Howard Green can get over any bar unless it's lying on the ground.

Howard made that bar irrelevant.

http://rockboxsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pittsburgh-steelers-vs-green-bay-packers-in-super-bowl-xlv1.jpg

[Patler]

Name a play he made in the post season. Or make a case he was more valuable than Green in the last 6 games of the season. Jenkins stood out as the best pass rusher of a poor group of pass rushing DTs. Replacing him is a lower bar than you think.

pb makes a very valid point that many seem to overlook.

[mraynrand]

pb makes a very valid point that many seem to overlook.


What point are you talking about?

[mraynrand]

I don't think Howard Green can get over any bar unless it's lying on the ground.

yeah but you should see him do the limbo

[Harlan Huckleby]

Name a play he made in the post season. Or make a case he was more valuable than Green in the last 6 games of the season. Jenkins stood out as the best pass rusher of a poor group of pass rushing DTs. Replacing him is a lower bar than you think.

I remember Jenkins getting good pressure, a real boost when he returned from injury. As I recall, he was full speed about the NFC championship game, got better each game.

I just see Jenkins as a significantly better player than you do. He plays the run well btw, gets off blocks. I suppose he is a little light in the loafers for 3-4 DE. The Packer writers rate him highly. See McGinn's latest chat, comments from Jason Wilde, Pete Dougherty chat.

[Harlan Huckleby]

pb makes a very valid point that many seem to overlook.

pass rushing is a premium

[Fritz]

There may be more to this than meets the eye. It appears that Jenkins was open to returning, but the guy didn't even get the start, when healthy, at the end of the playoffs. It would seem that perhaps the coaches weren't as enamoured of his play as we would think they'd be. Perhaps he was seen as a bit of a bad apple? Or his sack-making wasn't enough to make up for other poor plays? Makes you wonder how badly Capers and company really wanted Jenkins back.

[Patler]

What point are you talking about?

What I quoted from pb in my post, that replacing Jenkins might be a lower bar than we think for the reasons stated by PB.

[Patler]

pass rushing is a premium

Apparently not as supplied by Jenkins, based on the lack of interest shown by other teams.
If Jenkins really supplied a premium commodity, others would have shown him the love (and money).

I can't help but wonder if we Packer fans give him more credit than he is due.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If Jenkins had drawn a big salary, you would have said, "see, TT was smart to let go of the overpaid vet."
Low offers, "Jenkins not very good. Way to go Ted!"

Jenkins did not get a lot of money because of his injury history. I really doubt Philly is regetting their acquisition. Jenkins would be a bargain for the Packers at a price near what Philly signed him for.

Or perhaps those grapes really are kinda sour.

[pbmax]

The question will be answered before the start of next season. If Jenkins can stick with he Eagles contract or replace it with a valuable deal, then he will have proven his worth. This year could have suppressed his offer due to the low cap number. We'll see.

[Patler]

If Jenkins had drawn a big salary, you would have said, "see, TT was smart to let go of the overpaid vet."
Low offers, "Jenkins not very good. Way to go Ted!"

Jenkins did not get a lot of money because of his injury history. I really doubt Philly is regetting their acquisition. Jenkins would be a bargain for the Packers at a price near what Philly signed him for.

Or perhaps those grapes really are kinda sour.

I have stated several times I would've liked him to be back. Doesn't change the fact that the league did not value him highly. Also doesn't mean he would have returned.

[3irty1]

Jenkins had a monster game against the Bears in the NFCC. That said I think he's at his best as a 4-3 end where he's still an effective pass rusher but by comparison is dominant against the run. He also makes it possible to get your situational pass rusher on the field by his ability to slide inside.

[Patler]

Jenkins had a monster game against the Bears in the NFCC.

A monster game? Two tackles and a half sack? As I recall, he played a good game, but hardly a monster game.

[Bretsky]

I don't like the thread title; the answer is we don't have much or any :)

[RashanGary]

1. He's 30
2. He's injury prone
3. Raji said this year they're on the same page, dotting their (i)s and crossing their (t)s. Last year Jenkins did his own thing. It's been rumored he was seeking high sack numbers to get a paycheck.


I would have liked to keep Jenkins. I think he'd really help our group. He's no where near the player Raji, Matthews, Woodson, Williams and Collins are though. It remains to be seen if Neal is as good or maybe even better. I'm disappointed, especially at that price, but I'm not as down as HH. HH is making it out to be some terminal loss. Sheesh. We lost our 6th best defensive player and we gained some valuable experience from several young players and added a little talent in the draft. Defense should be about equal to last year, which was great.

[Bretsky]

great points JH; It would not surprise me if TT and his scouts are watching teams very closely.

A couple teams may be stacked with competent DL depth as we are at WR. Perhaps we swing a trade or put in a few waiver claims

Wilson and Wynn have been disappointing. I've always liked Neal so hopefully he can come back and stay healthy

[Fritz]

Wilson's dull start to camp makes me wonder if he was really hurt by the lack of offseason stuff, or if he didn't train very hard, or if both are true.

Interestingly, when asked about acquiring some DL depth what with Wilson and Guy being concussed (did I make that word up?), Thompson said he didn't think that the team would be looking for anyone else, and that by the time the season opened and guys healed, they'd be fine.

[Patler]

TT said after the game that he doesn't think they need to add a veteran D-lineman, which of course probably means he is actively working on a trade right now! :lol:

(Edit - Fritz beat me to the TT comment)

[Yoop]

TT said after the game that he doesn't think they need to add a veteran D-lineman, which of course probably means he is actively working on a trade right now! :lol:

(Edit - Fritz beat me to the TT comment)

are you saying Teddy ballgame would keep something like that a secret from us fans? the gall of that guy. lol

It's rumored from a friend of a undisclosed insider source that Ted is actively seeking out a undrafted FA DT from little known sitka, Alaska community college, kids a stud, lol.

[Fritz]

At risk of taking the thread off course, my own undocumentable perception is that TT is a little more forthcoming than he used to be. That comment of his about how most "experts" commenting on the draft really don't know what they're talking about...that opened my eyes a bit.

So I don't think TT really does have any plans to bring in any DL help.

Okay...now that I've written that, in about five minutes the Packers will announce that Wilson's concussion is semi-serious....and ten minutes after that, TT will trade for some unknown guy in exchange for a sixth round pick next year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wilson had a slow start to camp, but recent reports had him picking up his game as camp progressed. Wynn actually looks improved over last year in the preseason games. It all comes down to Neal. If Neal stays healthy, the loss of Jenkins will matter little. The depth at NT is good with Green backing up Raji. Green can also kick out to DE. Wilson is a below average or average starter, but he's pretty darn good as a backup. Wynn might have improved enough to be considered a decent last man off the bench type. I'm not sure our DL is in the dire straits that people make it out to be, but a lot of it depends on Neal.

Neal and Lang are important. If Lang plays up to the average standards of Colledge, we are a better offense than last year. We added Cobb, a healthy Grant, a healthy Finley, and Green to the mix.

If Neal stays healthy, our defense is about the same as last year. Jenkins didn't exactly stay healthy last year. Burnett is back, but I also figure that are depth is worse in some spots, Woodson and Pickett are getting older, and teams have had more time to prepare for guys like Walden, Zombo, and Shields. I expect our defense to be a little worse than last year, but still top 10.

Special teams is where I'm excited. We could make big improvements there (Cobb and an improved Masthay, plus the new kickoff rule to benefit Crosby and his strong leg).

All in all, I think this team is more talented than last year, but that doesn't guarantee anything. We had a good run at the end, but we went through a lot of inconsistency.

[KYPack]

Harve, that's a well thought out, logical post. After a couple pre-season games, that's exactly my thoughts on the Pack.

Shit.

That's no fun.

Go back in there and put in some stupid ideas so we can yell at you about something.

Thank you.

[Yoop]

Harve, that's a well thought out, logical post. After a couple pre-season games, that's exactly my thoughts on the Pack.

Shit.

That's no fun.

Go back in there and put in some stupid ideas so we can yell at you about something.

Thank you.

Ryan Pickett, with the quickness he had as a youth, ( mathews must have bribed him somehow) flashes closing speed and gets a sack, what a stud, lol.

[pbmax]

1. He's 30
2. He's injury prone
3. Raji said this year they're on the same page, dotting their (i)s and crossing their (t)s. Last year Jenkins did his own thing. It's been rumored he was seeking high sack numbers to get a paycheck.


I would have liked to keep Jenkins. I think he'd really help our group. He's no where near the player Raji, Matthews, Woodson, Williams and Collins are though. It remains to be seen if Neal is as good or maybe even better. I'm disappointed, especially at that price, but I'm not as down as HH. HH is making it out to be some terminal loss. Sheesh. We lost our 6th best defensive player and we gained some valuable experience from several young players and added a little talent in the draft. Defense should be about equal to last year, which was great.

Didn't you start that rumor? :)

[pbmax]

Wilson had a slow start to camp, but recent reports had him picking up his game as camp progressed. Wynn actually looks improved over last year in the preseason games. It all comes down to Neal. If Neal stays healthy, the loss of Jenkins will matter little. The depth at NT is good with Green backing up Raji. Green can also kick out to DE. Wilson is a below average or average starter, but he's pretty darn good as a backup. Wynn might have improved enough to be considered a decent last man off the bench type. I'm not sure our DL is in the dire straits that people make it out to be, but a lot of it depends on Neal.

I have read the Wynn has improved in camp stories and saw with my own two eyes that he was more solid at the end of last season. But versus the Cardinals, he was going nowhere fast on his pass rush most of the time. Now much of what he did was in base 3-4, not inside in the nickel, so perhaps he could do something different inside.

But improvement from one preseason to the next by someone who is supposed to be one of the pass rushers on a team has to yield more production on the field. Otherwise he is the definition of stopgap. That's not horrible, and his motor seems improved where he uses his speed to chase plays down. But versus the scrubs he was barely noticeable.

[Fritz]

I don't think, at this point, either Wynn or Wilson is the next Corey Williams or Johnny Jolly (in terms of talent and production).

[rbaloha1]

I don't think, at this point, either Wynn or Wilson is the next Corey Williams or Johnny Jolly (in terms of talent and production).


Agree. Role players with fresh legs at the end of the game.

[Bretsky]

I don't think, at this point, either Wynn or Wilson is the next Corey Williams or Johnny Jolly (in terms of talent and production).


At this point it seems like both are either the guys you try to replace each year or keep as your final DL; but we have two

[Patler]

I think people are giving up on Wilson too quickly. Last year at the end of TC most writers figured he was destined for the practice squad. Instead, he ended up playing more and playing much better than anyone expected. Following the disjointed mess that was this off season, he has started slowly, but seems to be coming around a little. I think he can be a decent backup yet.

[Harlan Huckleby]

why did TT cut Cullen Jenkins loose - why, why, why?

He was the little train that could. Beat up by his big brother his entire childhood. Too small to play pro football, undrafted, unloved. Yet he made it and developed the knack for pass rushing inside. this wound will never heal.

[hoosier]

why did TT cut Cullen Jenkins loose - why, why, why?

He was the little train that could. Beat up by his big brother his entire childhood. Too small to play pro football, undrafted, unloved. Yet he made it and developed the knack for pass rushing inside. this wound will never heal.

The ugly truth is that Cullen Jenkins is actually a me-first kinda guy who, when his contract year rolled around, abandoned the team concept that DEs in the Capers defense are supposed to embrace and focused only on building the kind of stats he thought would get him a lucrative contract. His abilities may be superior to any other lineman on the team (minus Raji and Neal) but his attitude doesn't make him a good fit for Capers's scheme. So he takes his 7-10 sacks and shirked containment responsibilities on the road. Big deal.

Ok, I am exaggerating a little to make my point. I do not doubt that the coaching staff was probably complicit in this when they sold Jenkins on the scheme in the first place. They convinced him that he wouldn't have to become the dumb mule who allows the linebackers to shine.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I have read the Wynn has improved in camp stories and saw with my own two eyes that he was more solid at the end of last season. But versus the Cardinals, he was going nowhere fast on his pass rush most of the time. Now much of what he did was in base 3-4, not inside in the nickel, so perhaps he could do something different inside.

But improvement from one preseason to the next by someone who is supposed to be one of the pass rushers on a team has to yield more production on the field. Otherwise he is the definition of stopgap. That's not horrible, and his motor seems improved where he uses his speed to chase plays down. But versus the scrubs he was barely noticeable.

He had a couple of really nice rushes playing the nose in the nickel in the game. He also had another pressure as a DE and he stuffed a run on the goalline. He made his presence felt. I thought he looked better.

[3irty1]

Wynn's ability to play the run was the only thing keeping him off the field last year. He was so bad they would use TJ Lang instead of him on the goal line. He's already a solid interior pass rusher but he'll have to keep improving if he's going to fool anyone into giving me a starting job.

[KYPack]

Wilson impressed me. He's learned a lot and is vastly improved this season. In the first quarter, they ran to Wilson's side. he was very active with his feet, hand fought really well controlling the blocker and stopped the ball carrier for no gain. Then I realized the guy blocking him was Colledge!

Wynn played better in his stint. Hopefully Neal is only slightly dinged and Wilson will come back and play at the hgher level. If we have to open the year with Wynn as the starter, we are a hurtin' unit.

[RashanGary]

JS had an article where they said the DL isn't in trouble. They said Both Wilson and Wynn look improved (particularly Wilson) and if Neals injury is minor, they'll be fine.

[VermontPackFan]

Howard made that bar irrelevant.

http://rockboxsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/pittsburgh-steelers-vs-green-bay-packers-in-super-bowl-xlv1.jpg

Boy thats a pretty picture, I may keep it as my screen saver for awhile...:)

[pbmax]

The ugly truth is that Cullen Jenkins is actually a me-first kinda guy who, when his contract year rolled around, abandoned the team concept that DEs in the Capers defense are supposed to embrace and focused only on building the kind of stats he thought would get him a lucrative contract. His abilities may be superior to any other lineman on the team (minus Raji and Neal) but his attitude doesn't make him a good fit for Capers's scheme. So he takes his 7-10 sacks and shirked containment responsibilities on the road. Big deal.

Ok, I am exaggerating a little to make my point. I do not doubt that the coaching staff was probably complicit in this when they sold Jenkins on the scheme in the first place. They convinced him that he wouldn't have to become the dumb mule who allows the linebackers to shine.

Do we have a source on this story? Because I think Justin made a similar argument and outside of Raji saying he and Jenkins didn't watch tape and prepare together, I haven't seen any other indicator this was the story. Not saying you are wrong, but perhaps I simply missed it .

[pbmax]

He had a couple of really nice rushes playing the nose in the nickel in the game. He also had another pressure as a DE and he stuffed a run on the goalline. He made his presence felt. I thought he looked better.

Harv if you saw it I will stand aside on this point, but the plays where I saw him (all at RDE) he was in Neutral.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I can't say I watched every one of his plays, but he stood out to me for good reasons. He made his presence felt. Once I saw him making plays, I started watching him more. He has some pass rush to him. I almost thought he was better pass rushing from the inside. Maybe that will be his niche.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Coincidentally, there is an article about Wynn tonight on JSO.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/128432803.html


Wynn's roster spot not in jeopardy this time

Fast forward a year, and the third-year pro has a roster spot locked up...

Wynn has had some solid practices in training camp and became a starter in the nickel when Neal went down with a knee injury Aug. 16. Against the Cardinals last Friday, he didn't have a sack, but he was flashing moves he didn't have a year ago.

"Jarius played well," Trgovac said. "He had some good rushes that he was coming clean on. The ball was just out before he got there. He had a couple moves where he beat the guy with a move and was coming clean."

The 6-3, 285-pound Wynn can play end in the 3-4, although you wouldn't want him lining head up over the tackle as a Ryan Pickett, Howard Green or C.J. Wilson might. Wynn is more of an edge rusher who has been working like crazy to improve his pass rush ability up the middle.

When he and Raji line up in the nickel they can line up anywhere across the guard's outside shoulder to either side of the center's shoulders to just outside the tackle. Sometimes he's trying to eat up blockers to allow others to get free and sometimes it's his job to get into the backfield.

"We don't rush as much outside particularly in nickel," Trgovac said. "He's getting better at his inside rush. He has long arms so he has a good mixture of finesse moves and he can use power inside, too."

[pbmax]

Coincidentally, there is an article about Wynn tonight on JSO.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/128432803.html

Its a bit of a weird fit with Neal being out. In that article, Wynn talks about working with Chuck Smith, former Falcon, on his "three" which I assume is the 3 tech tackle. For Wynn, that would mean he anticipated (or was told) to work on his inside game. Haven't seen the interview so there might be more to it, but it sounds quite specific.

The problem with Neal out is that Wynn will also need to play some 5 tech, which is all run defense and occupying blockers, because I don't think they are moving Raji back to the 5.

Wrong article, its here: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128425663.html

[hoosier]

Do we have a source on this story? Because I think Justin made a similar argument and outside of Raji saying he and Jenkins didn't watch tape and prepare together, I haven't seen any other indicator this was the story. Not saying you are wrong, but perhaps I simply missed it .

No real concrete source. I'm drawing on what I think was inuendo in one of his teammates' reported comments (might have been Raji), together with the fact that Cullen had to be sold on the scheme (or his role in it) during summer '09 and the fact that the Packers apparently didn't pursue him too hard during free agency. That's a lot of speculatin' on hypotheses on my part. I tried to soften my position in the second paragraph (exaggerating a little) without betraying my own intuitive sense that this is probably a big factor in how things went down this summer.

[Fritz]

Does Guy now become practice squad fodder? They can hold him out this game and play him in a very limited role in the next so other teams don't get to see him, then cut and re-sign him to the practice squad.

[MadScientist]

Does Guy now become practice squad fodder? They can hold him out this game and play him in a very limited role in the next so other teams don't get to see him, then cut and re-sign him to the practice squad.
If he passes his concussion test, otherwise they have to IR him or wave/injured and wait till 4 weeks past the settlement time.