My darkhorse pick to be our 4th CB

[3irty1]

The Packers snuck a bit through last season using 3 CB's extensively but rarely reaching for that 4th CB. I have a feeling that guy will see the field however on week 1 vs NO. As we know our nickle defense utilizes Charles Woodson in the slot exclusively while Sam Shields and Tramon Woodson roam the sidelines. It takes a special player to be able to do this and the Packers have the luxury of having the best player in this role in the NFL.

In the slot you'll be tasked with matching up against slot receivers which varies from Wes Welker waterbug type guys, Percy Harvin type burners, and Jermichael Finley type TE's that are split out wide. You must also be able to prevent big plays from these characters without the use of the sideline. This takes an impossible combination of change of direction skills and size that Woodson and few others possess. The slot corner must also be an above average run defender simply because they are standing in the middle of the field. Woodson tackles like a linebacker. On top of it all he's got elite ball skills.

Why am I bringing up Woodson to talk about the dime corner? Because adding a dimeback means two guys playing in the slot. Up through the superbowl that guy was Jarrett Bush for us. He's got decent size and can change directions well but lets not kid ourselves--all the advantages that come from putting a playmaker in the middle of the field are lost with Bush. Well since the position is so challenging and its such a schematic advantage to put a great player there, it makes sense that one of the other DB's will rotate to that spot. This has the added advantage of keeping the cornerbacks lowest on the depth chart on the outside where they will have help from the sidelines.

Shields is a poor choice, he's small, lacks exceptional tackling ability, and is inexperienced enough that you'd like to give him help from the sidelines. Tramon would seem to make some sense, he's physical, has ball skills, can cover and tackle alright. But this isn't madden and if Tramon could do this his coaches would be way ahead of me. Pat Lee is at least as adequate on the outside as bush is inside so, Tramon must not be up to a role in the middle of the field. Who then? Morgan Burnett is my pick.

1) He meets all the qualifications. The guy is huge for a corner, has superhuman c.o.d. skills (3.92 s on the 20 yard SS), can tackle, and has great ball skills.

2) He's got a starting caliber player behind him. We'll hardly miss a beat at the SS position by moving Burnett down to CB in the dime subpackage because of Charlie Peprah. This gets our best 6 on the field at once.

3) He's done it before. In College Burnett was moved from S to CB to play the slot in the Georgia Tech nickle package.

[Guiness]

You're way off. It's going to be Tank, who will be in camp as a walk on. He once covered Hank Baskett (? wrong guy...) in High school! lol :glug:

[vince]

Nice post 3irty1. I'd like to see him blitz a few times before saying he's a potential playmaker in that role, and I'm not sure he's shown the physicality in run support at this point. I agree that Shields is a bit short - especially to man up on big TE's, but he does willingly stick his head in there and hit and has at least shown some blitzing ability and playmaking ability. I think he'll ultimately be a bit more physical than Tramon. Plus, we're probably talking about a couple years from now before Woodson hangs it up barring injury. Shields and Burnett both will likely develop more physically. I think Burnett's value is more of a centerfield guy who breaks well on the ball in the air more than a playmaker at the line of scrimmage. JMO

The truth is there's not a perfect fit right now for all the things Woodson does, as you noted. I guess guys like Charles Woodson don't come around every year. Imagine that.

The Dom will adjust.

[pbmax]

You're way off. It's going to be Tank, who will be in camp as a walk on. He once covered Hank Baskett (? wrong guy...) in High school! lol :glug:

Darin Charles; held him without a catch I think. Those were the days.

[Little Whiskey]

Darin Charles; held him without a catch I think. Those were the days.


thats it!


those were the days! he was partial before there was partial!

[3irty1]

tom silverstein
Just got a look at Morgan Burnett blitzing off the edge

Vince you may get your wish :)

I'm not looking ahead to a replacement for Woodson quite yet, just noting that the ideal dime back is another guy in his mold and that the closest thing we've got is Morgan Burnett. As an added bonus we have a starting guy behind him and our least experienced guys will still get the use of the sidelines to help prevent big plays.

[smuggler]

I'd like to see more of Burnett in the S role before we move him around like that. That said, I would be open to him having more roving capability like Woodson.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I already named my CB sleeper. :)

http://www.packers.com/team/roster/Josh-Gordy/287383f0-7efb-496c-9c64-08fba3ed8148

[Lurker64]

Didn't Capers go on record in his first year that he prefers to play a third safety as a dime defender instead of a fourth cornerback? In that case, then ... yes, Burnett will be on the field in Dime... as will Williams, Woodson, Shields, Collins, and Peprah.

[Brandon494]

Burnett has experience playing CB from college so I could see that working. Anything to take Bush off the field. :)

[pbmax]

Didn't Capers go on record in his first year that he prefers to play a third safety as a dime defender instead of a fourth cornerback? In that case, then ... yes, Burnett will be on the field in Dime... as will Williams, Woodson, Shields, Collins, and Peprah.

No, don't remember that. Interesting. Do you know when/where it was?

[Lurker64]

No, don't remember that. Interesting. Do you know when/where it was?

I think it was around the time we were running out of safeties in 09' and we moved Chillar to S for a game. I could just be misremembering though.

[Smidgeon]

I think it was around the time we were running out of safeties in 09' and we moved Chillar to S for a game. I could just be misremembering though.

I seem to recall something like that too, but not enough to remember context.

[red]

at practice last night i tried to focus on pat lee a few times after reading about him stepping up this year. from what i saw, the id looked pretty solid.

it might have finally clicked for him

[pbmax]

I seem to recall something like that too, but not enough to remember context.

I would guess its a desire not to get too small, even in dime. But I don't remember specifics either.

[3irty1]

The 4th CB must either play in the slot or push someone else into the slot. Josh Gordy and especially Pat Lee are unsuitable to play in the slot IMO as are Tramon and Shields. Even if Gordy and Lee have improved, its unlikely they'll get defensive roles baring injury to Tramon or Shields.

Pat Lee is a big m2m corner, his agility and c.o.d. measurables are linebackeresk. Gordy has a much better shot than Lee and I could see him raising hell as a blitzer from that slot role but it still doesn't play to his strengths as a player. Jarrett Bush is still a better option in the slot.

[vince]

The 4th CB must either play in the slot or push someone else into the slot. Josh Gordy and especially Pat Lee are unsuitable to play in the slot IMO as are Tramon and Shields. Even if Gordy and Lee have improved, its unlikely they'll get defensive roles baring injury to Tramon or Shields.

Pat Lee is a big m2m corner, his agility and c.o.d. measurables are linebackeresk. Gordy has a much better shot than Lee and I could see him raising hell as a blitzer from that slot role but it still doesn't play to his strengths as a player. Jarrett Bush is still a better option in the slot.
You also have to be able to run with some of the slot guys like Harvin without being able to press them. Most safeties will struggle to run with a lot of inside guys and/or will be targeted and abused. It takes a special player playmaker to do everything that Wood is asked to do. Maybe Burnett can do it, but there's a reason he doesn't play corner.

[3irty1]

You also have to be able to run with some of the slot guys like Harvin without being able to press them. Most safeties will struggle to run with a lot of inside guys and/or will be targeted and abused. It takes a special player playmaker to do everything that Wood is asked to do. Maybe Burnett can do it, but there's a reason he doesn't play corner.

Yeah and that reason could be because the only way we could get him on the field is in dime. If he plays CB its in the slot and we know he's not taking 21's job (who was also a safety). This slot CB position that we have created for Woodson may well best be filled with Safeties. Who knows, Burnett may have filled the dimeback role last year if he had stayed healthy but its even more likely this year IMO with the fully proven Peprah there to man the SS spot in dime.

[vince]

Not quite sure what you're referring to about Woodson being a safety...?

Whoever takes Wood's rover spot needs to be able to run and cover guys like Harvin and Desean Jackson at times. Maybe Burnett can do it but I'm not so sure at this point. I'm not sure Collins could do it reliably, but he'd probably be better than Burnett from what I've seen so far. JMO.

[3irty1]

Not quite sure what you're referring to about Woodson being a safety...?

Whoever takes Wood's rover spot needs to be able to run and cover guys like Harvin and Desean Jackson at times. Maybe Burnett can do it but I'm not so sure at this point. I'm not sure Collins could do it reliably, but he'd probably be better than Burnett from what I've seen so far. JMO.

Chuck spent some time at safety in Oakland and a little bit here as well. I'm just pointing out again that the skill set fits. I don't think Burnett or Collins would embarrass themselves in coverage vs those players even if they weren't as good as Woodson. I'm also talking about our 4th CB season. Dom willing, our 4th corner won't be in a position to cover elite nfl slot receivers on a constant basis.

[Deputy Nutz]

Chuck has spent zero time as a safety in Packerland. He plays the slot and that is where he blitzes from. I would hardly call what he did in Oakland as playing a safety position. He basically played where ever the hell he wanted and did what he wanted. The Raiders would say that they had him playing a rover position, which in the NFL means playing the slot, he does such a nice job in run support keeping the edge, and when needed blitzing. The bottom line is Woodson is a very intelligent football player that watches film and then can rely on his instincts to destroy offenses. A lot of Woodson's picks are because he jumbs routes or puts himself into the spot where the QB throws the ball before the receiver can get there. Very few of his picks are because he was providing blanket coverage down field.

Very few NFL defenders get the freedom that Charles Woodson gets, but that is because of his instincts and the fact that he is brilliant at breaking down game film.

He is not a safety, nor could he ever be considered a safety.

[3irty1]

Chuck has spent zero time as a safety in Packerland. He plays the slot and that is where he blitzes from. I would hardly call what he did in Oakland as playing a safety position. He basically played where ever the hell he wanted and did what he wanted. The Raiders would say that they had him playing a rover position, which in the NFL means playing the slot, he does such a nice job in run support keeping the edge, and when needed blitzing. The bottom line is Woodson is a very intelligent football player that watches film and then can rely on his instincts to destroy offenses. A lot of Woodson's picks are because he jumbs routes or puts himself into the spot where the QB throws the ball before the receiver can get there. Very few of his picks are because he was providing blanket coverage down field.

Very few NFL defenders get the freedom that Charles Woodson gets, but that is because of his instincts and the fact that he is brilliant at breaking down game film.

He is not a safety, nor could he ever be considered a safety.

Well this is wrong. He played safety for us when Bigby went down for a few weeks in 08. He also lined up at Safety in the base D in the NFCC to cover Olsen.

But...this thread is about the type of player we want as our 4th corner or how Morgan Burnett and his skills would fair in such a role.

[pbmax]

I think Nutz and 3irty1 both have a point. Wodson has been the 2nd safety in base D before with Shields/3rd CB taking his spot. But like Butler on Wesley Walls or Sharpe, he was asked to cover, not other more typical safety related tasks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My man, Gordy. :) I love jumping on the bandwagon of an unknown--just because the coaches make a positive comment about them. :)


First-year cornerback Josh Gordy made his first appearance on a No. 1 special teams unit. He was on the kickoff coverage team. He played the spot usually occupied by receiver Brett Swain, who was out with a hamstring injury.