packer involved in miami scandal

[red]

well, if you haven't heard about this story yeat you must be living with your head in your ass. this is making all other college sports scandals look like childs play

our own sam shields is one of the 72 miami hurricane players that has been named as excepting "illegal" gifts

keep in mind before you read my rant that this shouldn't effect shields at all

now as a huge hurricanes fan, ahem.........

FUCK THAT MOTHER FUCKING BULLSHIT, YOU GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME. you're fooling yourself if you think every single BCS team doesn't also do the same damn thing. now miami is probably gonna be banned from ever playing in a bowl game again, be stripped of all its scholorships, and they might even separate the whole miami area from the rest of the country and push it out into the ocean.

you start to read these story and they make this players out to be the worst animals in the world. when you read the laundry list of players and what they recieved, you quickly realize that most of them received food and drinks at this dudes houses or yacht.

keep in mind, the school, conference and the NCAA are raking in millions from these players

now brace yourself for this

sam shields he accepted a 42 inch TV. he also got free drinks and VIP access at a bar one time. he also went to the guys house once for more food and drinks. HOW DARE HE EAT AND DRINK.

thats it for him, and that's it for most of the players. most received a few thousand dollars worth of shit over the 4 years they were there. while everyone else made billions

the NCAA is a complete joke at this point and needs to just go away

[Fritz]

Well, I ain't no Miami fan, so I don't agree that all major college teams do exactly what Miami did. I think the major, heavy hitters - the Oklahomas, the Alabamas, the USC's, the Ohio States, the Texases...I think they do it to a greater degree than other teams. I do believe that the vast majority cheat, but to different levels of excess. So I don't feel Miami is somehow deserving of pity. At all.

But I do agree with you that the NCAA honchos, the university mucky-mucks, the media, especially television (I'm thinking ESPN and Fox and the Big Ten Network and all those people) are getting filthy rich off these players, who get - what, a 42" television and some rolls with hot hookers? It's a joke if anyone thinks any of this division one stuff is remotely "amateur" athletics. It's a money-making machine.

My solution is to pay the players like it's a developmental league for the NFL (cuz it is), which should be funded by both the schools and the NFL. And don't make the players go to classes unless they want to, cuz that pretense that they're there for an education is mostly a joke (though not always). You can still have the Miami Hurricanes, the Michigan Wolverines, they can still play in college stadiums, all of that can stay the same. But quit pretending it's something it's not.

[SkinBasket]

I hope they ban them from football forever.

[Joemailman]

I hope they ban them from football forever.

They just might. The duration of this points to involvement at every level of the university. It wasn't just a couple coaches looking the other way.

[Upnorth]

I never have understood why they crack down so hard on these hand outs to the players. They have special skills, they have earned some compensation.

[red]

Well, I ain't no Miami fan, so I don't agree that all major college teams do exactly what Miami did. I think the major, heavy hitters - the Oklahomas, the Alabamas, the USC's, the Ohio States, the Texases...I think they do it to a greater degree than other teams. I do believe that the vast majority cheat, but to different levels of excess. So I don't feel Miami is somehow deserving of pity. At all.

But I do agree with you that the NCAA honchos, the university mucky-mucks, the media, especially television (I'm thinking ESPN and Fox and the Big Ten Network and all those people) are getting filthy rich off these players, who get - what, a 42" television and some rolls with hot hookers? It's a joke if anyone thinks any of this division one stuff is remotely "amateur" athletics. It's a money-making machine.

My solution is to pay the players like it's a developmental league for the NFL (cuz it is), which should be funded by both the schools and the NFL. And don't make the players go to classes unless they want to, cuz that pretense that they're there for an education is mostly a joke (though not always). You can still have the Miami Hurricanes, the Michigan Wolverines, they can still play in college stadiums, all of that can stay the same. But quit pretending it's something it's not.

oh i have no doubt fritz, that the canes have done it bigger and better then everyone else

i'm not saying everyone is doing it like that, but i am saying almost every division 1 football team has players that are excepting gifts. the only difference is that some teams have idiots that talk after paying

[Freak Out]

I never have understood why they crack down so hard on these hand outs to the players. They have special skills, they have earned some compensation.

They are getting compensated.....it's called a scholarship. Most of them include room and board...it's not Chez Panisse but they get big and strong eating it.

[red]

They are getting compensated.....it's called a scholarship. Most of them include room and board...it's not Chez Panisse but they get big and strong eating it.

yeah, but that's all they get. no spending money or fun money

and i don't think they are allowed to take jobs because that would be accepting money. in a case like vine wilfork who has both parents die while he's in college, that would suck big time. no money for funerals, or even for gas to get to the funerals, and if anyone else gives him $20 bucks to get there he would be breaking the rules

the current system sucks. its modern day slavery

[Joemailman]

September 17: Ohio State at Miami. Will they bill it as The Probation Bowl?

[Bretsky]

Screw Miami the the Blowhard Canes. If they'd quit cheating every dam year the legit WI Badgers would kick their ass !! No wonder why we can't win a title. We don't pay rent and board for Reggie Bush or buy the players TV'S

[Fritz]

They are getting compensated.....it's called a scholarship. Most of them include room and board...it's not Chez Panisse but they get big and strong eating it.

Really, Freak? They get a scholarship, when the people in charge - the big-wigs - are making millions and millions. Chris Berman,
Mel Kiper, NCAA honchos, University big-wigs - they are driving Lexuses and Acuras and whatever, and living in their damn gated communities, because they've scammed the system - and the kids get fucking scholarships? For an education most of them don't really want nearly as much as they want to get to the NFL??? Sorry, but I am with Red on this one. That "they're getting a scholarship" argument is older and more useless than my dead grandmother's panties.

[Upnorth]

If a booster wants to give them a cushy 'job' why not?
If a resturant owner wants to give his team / favorite player free meal why not?
These players have special talents, they deserve compensation accordingly. students who receive scholastic scholarships don't have job restrictions. In university I received a scholarship and the person who gave it became a mentor and we would meet every month. This included a nice meal. Why is that 'fair'?

[Iron Mike]

I blame Jimmy Johnson.

[Brandon494]

Screw Miami the the Blowhard Canes. If they'd quit cheating every dam year the legit WI Badgers would kick their ass !! No wonder why we can't win a title. We don't pay rent and board for Reggie Bush or buy the players TV'S

Shit I guarntee they get paid just like every other college besides BYU.

[Freak Out]

Wah wah wah...cry me a river. Yes...the kids get scholarships. The cheapest of which is how much year? So because Kiper and Berman makes a fortune talking about NCAA football the student athlete should get paid? Tell me about that salary structure please. Give them a free ride....food and financial assistance as needed.

As usual what was once tradition and honor driven is now driven by greed.

[Brandon494]

Yea but they can also take that scholarship away at the end of the semester if a better player comes along.

[Freak Out]

Yea but they can also take that scholarship away at the end of the semester if a better player comes along.

What? Wait...is that only in WV? :)

[MJZiggy]

Wah wah wah...cry me a river. Yes...the kids get scholarships. The cheapest of which is how much year? So because Kiper and Berman makes a fortune talking about NCAA football the student athlete should get paid? Tell me about that salary structure please. Give them a free ride....food and financial assistance as needed.

As usual what was once tradition and honor driven is now driven by greed.

Everything is driven by greed, dear. I can see them not wanting the schools to pay athletes, but to say that they can't hold a job while they're in school is ridiculous. If there is a company that wants to hire them, it is their prerogative to work while in school as long as they keep their athletic eligibility.

[Lurker64]

Shit I guarntee they get paid just like every other college besides BYU.

They get paid at BYU, they just aren't allowed to have sex.

[ND72]

I think these schools should get hit with everything. Here is the thing, these kids are paid, they just don't realize it. I played D2 football, when we left on Friday, every meal, paid for, hotel paid for. Our baseball team went to Florida every february for a week...hotel, paid, 2 meals per day paid (hotel provided breakfast). Buddy of mine played for the badgers...when they came back from whatever bowl game it was, he had almost $3000 in gift certificates to best buy, Tommy, old navy, Nike, addidas, and many more....PLUS, they all came back with new team gear provided by the school for being there, bowl clothing as they were given all new hats, pants, shirts, and sweatshirts, AND they all received an Xbox360. I don't know too many other normal college kids that get those treatments. Screw paying the kids, if you're gonna pay them, no more scholarships (5-year scholarship to Wisconsin valued at $60,000 in state), and stop giving the rest of the handouts they all continually get. The NCAA is just as to blame as some of these kids, no question, but people need to stop acting like they don't get anything.

[Lurker64]

The real problem is that ultimately there's really no way to stop this sort of thing. I mean, no matter how much you're getting paid to do what you do, if a booster or other fan offers you a TV or some cash under the table on top of that, are you really going to say no to that? Do you even necessarily believe that this is wrong? There's really no threat of being found out until it's too late, anyway. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done to prevent this sort of thing from happening. I mean, it ought to be expected that a college would stop this sort of thing before it went as far as it did in Miami (Shapiro lead the team out of the tunnel on two occasions, his luxury box was right next to the AD's, somebody should have looked into this), but stuff like this is pretty impossible to completely eliminate.

I suppose you could probably allow college athletes to profit from personal appearances, signing autographs, selling their personal property, and other perfectly behavior that the NCAA bans profiting from, so taking money under the table would be much less appealing for star players. But that's unlikely to happen.

[hoosier]

I think these schools should get hit with everything. Here is the thing, these kids are paid, they just don't realize it. I played D2 football, when we left on Friday, every meal, paid for, hotel paid for. Our baseball team went to Florida every february for a week...hotel, paid, 2 meals per day paid (hotel provided breakfast). Buddy of mine played for the badgers...when they came back from whatever bowl game it was, he had almost $3000 in gift certificates to best buy, Tommy, old navy, Nike, addidas, and many more....PLUS, they all came back with new team gear provided by the school for being there, bowl clothing as they were given all new hats, pants, shirts, and sweatshirts, AND they all received an Xbox360. I don't know too many other normal college kids that get those treatments. Screw paying the kids, if you're gonna pay them, no more scholarships (5-year scholarship to Wisconsin valued at $60,000 in state), and stop giving the rest of the handouts they all continually get. The NCAA is just as to blame as some of these kids, no question, but people need to stop acting like they don't get anything.

I think I see the happy medium between ND and Fritz: the NCAA should enforce its rules and drop the building on violators, and the NFL can start up a minor league. Talented 18-year olds could choose between the two, and the quality of college football probably wouldn't suffer too much (more continuity from 4-year players). And fans could wonder what might have been if only Reggie Bush had chosen USC over the Sacramento Horndogs.

That aside, the question should really be put to Fritz: Why is it that the NCAA has such a hard time acknowledging cheating and corruption? Maybe the answer to that question would also point to why your scenario isn't gonna work....

[red]

Screw Miami the the Blowhard Canes. If they'd quit cheating every dam year the legit WI Badgers would kick their ass !! No wonder why we can't win a title. We don't pay rent and board for Reggie Bush or buy the players TV'S

yeah, badger players just get shopping sprees at footlocker

it happens to every team

[red]

I think I see the happy medium between ND and Fritz: the NCAA should enforce its rules and drop the building on violators, and the NFL can start up a minor league. Talented 18-year olds could choose between the two, and the quality of college football probably wouldn't suffer too much (more continuity from 4-year players). And fans could wonder what might have been if only Reggie Bush had chosen USC over the Sacramento Horndogs.

That aside, the question should really be put to Fritz: Why is it that the NCAA has such a hard time acknowledging cheating and corruption? Maybe the answer to that question would also point to why your scenario isn't gonna work....

that's the major problem, there is no farm system and the NFL forces players to go to college for 3 years before they can enter the nfl.

i'm sure a pretty high amount of blue chippers would rather go play for some AAA affiliate making $20,000 a year vs. being forces to go to college and only get a scholarship

now for a vast majority of kids, like ND was, its nice to get a full ride for playing football. i'm sure ND probably didn't have dreams of playing in the NFL at the time. but i'm sure there's also a lot out there that would love to start making money right away out of high school

[Fritz]

I think I see the happy medium between ND and Fritz: the NCAA should enforce its rules and drop the building on violators, and the NFL can start up a minor league. Talented 18-year olds could choose between the two, and the quality of college football probably wouldn't suffer too much (more continuity from 4-year players). And fans could wonder what might have been if only Reggie Bush had chosen USC over the Sacramento Horndogs.

That aside, the question should really be put to Fritz: Why is it that the NCAA has such a hard time acknowledging cheating and corruption? Maybe the answer to that question would also point to why your scenario isn't gonna work....

The answer of course is that the NCAA is making so damn much money right now they don't want to change a thing. But if the NCAA became an arm of the NFL - the developmental league arm - they'd still make their money. It could work. And as for ND, if you're a small-time college player, getting a scholarship and meals is quite a perk. But if you're a big-time player and you see all these big mucky-mucks making money off you while you toil away for your free meals and rooms and yo're an injury away from being irrelevant, I'd say your scholarship hardly makes up for any of it. Cuz once you're hurt they'll take it away.

[Bretsky]

yeah, badger players just get shopping sprees at footlocker

it happens to every team


yes, getting shoe discounts from a small time shop....(NOT FOOT LOCKER) is not exactly similar to handing out the TV's or free rent for friends and family. Midwesterners arent' smart enough to get away with this stuff while your Canes abuse consistently. Suspend all of their Southern Asses !!!!!

[ND72]

that's the major problem, there is no farm system and the NFL forces players to go to college for 3 years before they can enter the nfl.

i'm sure a pretty high amount of blue chippers would rather go play for some AAA affiliate making $20,000 a year vs. being forces to go to college and only get a scholarship

now for a vast majority of kids, like ND was, its nice to get a full ride for playing football. i'm sure ND probably didn't have dreams of playing in the NFL at the time. but i'm sure there's also a lot out there that would love to start making money right away out of high school

I was a walk-on....aka, I sucked. :-) my recruiting visit was a trip to a local bar for wings, and then sent home. When I visited Wisconsin and NOTRE dame, they had a completely different recruiting time and area for walk on kids than scholarship kids.

[Patler]

What about the athletes on so-called "minor sports". No less uniquely talented than their football-playing counterparts. Don't they deserve 42" TVs just as much? They get along fine without all the perks that football players seem to think they are entitled to and some seem to think they can't live without.

One of my kids was a D-I athlete at a well-known "sports school". Living within the NCAA restrictions was just a matter of paying attention.

[Joemailman]

What about the athletes on so-called "minor sports". No less uniquely talented than their football-playing counterparts. Don't they deserve 42" TVs just as much? They get along fine without all the perks that football players seem to think they are entitled to and some seem to think they can't live without.

One of my kids was a D-I athlete at a well-known "sports school". Living within the NCAA restrictions was just a matter of paying attention.

I'm pretty sure the 42" TV was just for watching game film.

[red]

What about the athletes on so-called "minor sports". No less uniquely talented than their football-playing counterparts. Don't they deserve 42" TVs just as much? They get along fine without all the perks that football players seem to think they are entitled to and some seem to think they can't live without.

One of my kids was a D-I athlete at a well-known "sports school". Living within the NCAA restrictions was just a matter of paying attention.

my thinking is that, if those other sports were bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars to the schools, conferences, coaches, NCAA, the tv networks, etc, well then they could get more too

but lets face it, the mens and womens lacross teams don't bring in anywhere near what football and mens basketball rakes in

[hoosier]

The answer of course is that the NCAA is making so damn much money right now they don't want to change a thing. But if the NCAA became an arm of the NFL - the developmental league arm - they'd still make their money. It could work. And as for ND, if you're a small-time college player, getting a scholarship and meals is quite a perk. But if you're a big-time player and you see all these big mucky-mucks making money off you while you toil away for your free meals and rooms and yo're an injury away from being irrelevant, I'd say your scholarship hardly makes up for any of it. Cuz once you're hurt they'll take it away.

But I think the amateur thing is a key part of how the NCAA presents itself. Take that away (or, more accurately, acknowledge the true extent of institutional corruption) and the NCAA loses its whole mystique. I just don't think college football could be the industry it is if it acknowledged that many of the players in its top programs were essentially poorly paid pros. Thought experiment: Do you think the Olympics lost something when it started allowing pro athletes to compete in basketball, hockey, etc.? I do.

[Freak Out]

Everything is driven by greed, dear. I can see them not wanting the schools to pay athletes, but to say that they can't hold a job while they're in school is ridiculous. If there is a company that wants to hire them, it is their prerogative to work while in school as long as they keep their athletic eligibility.

I"m down with that.

[ND72]

my thinking is that, if those other sports were bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars to the schools, conferences, coaches, NCAA, the tv networks, etc, well then they could get more too

but lets face it, the mens and womens lacross teams don't bring in anywhere near what football and mens basketball rakes in

Bingo!

One of my college classes on title IX we got kind of pissed. Our extremely lesbian pro-feminist everything professor kept bitching about how the Florida State football team flew to all away games while other sports took the bus to certain events...after 10 minutes of her bitching about football, my college roommate stood up and yelled, "it's because of the football teethe restof those teams even have a bus!".....which, is probably entirely true.

[ND72]

Everything is driven by greed, dear. I can see them not wanting the schools to pay athletes, but to say that they can't hold a job while they're in school is ridiculous. If there is a company that wants to hire them, it is their prerogative to work while in school as long as they keep their athletic eligibility.

Totally agree, but it'd be damn near impossible to have a job. When I played, my schedule was set basically everyday 9am-1pm classes with my lunch in there. 2-2:30 training room, 2:30-3:30 meetings, 4-6 practice, 6:30 dinner, 7-8pm film session, then get to head back and either do school work, or have a life....and this was a D2 school. When the season was over, we would have morning lifts, evening running/speed workouts, and usually some film/study time with position coach.

[Deputy Nutz]

Before people just jump on here and rant, you should all realize that like many others on here have said these kids do get paid in scholarship money, which if put to an actually use and the 90% of the football players that receive scholarships that do not make it to the pros take advantage of their "payment" and graduate college they can have a decent career earning a salary that doesn't include fries and a drink. Unfortunately nobody cares to think of the long term "payment" these student athletes receive once they actually graduate from college.

There are Pell Grants available for student athletes that come from underpriviledged backgrounds up to 500 dollars a month in cash. I didn't have 500 bucks a month in cash when I played DIII football. I got a job in the summer and worked my ass off and then went to work out after building houses all summer. These kids get jobs in the summer working for some alumni(cush) take a few summer school classes to stay eligible then work out.

They also get housing allowances that allows them to live just about where ever they want on campus, they eat better than any other college kid which is payment for their athletic ability.

Not to mention all the "payments" in clothes, shoes, and gifts that ND mentioned above, which is all true if you don't want to believe him.

The fix in all this matter is pretty simple, if these kids want to be professional athletes, then that is what they should be and forget about enrolling in college, and the colleges should refuse to recruit student athletes that just want to be athletes. It is doing a major disservice to all of these programs and to the schools. College football wouldn't be any different for the fans if all colleges and the NCAA plays by the same rules.

Which now brings me to the NCAA. Fucking asshole. Biggest hyppocrites in sports. Dirtiest organization in sports. The school presidents are making boat loads of cash off of the tv deals with ESPN, ABC, CBS and FOX. Interesting enough none of these sporting news outlets ever break these stories it is all ways Yahoo, who doesn't get into bed with the NCAA. Where does this cash from all of these bowl games and tv deals go to? I really don't know. How much money does the a school actually cash in when going to a BCS bowl game? In the Big Ten the schools split all of the bowl money. When my wife sat on the athletic board her junior and senior year of college the Badgers actually lost money going to the Rosebowl in 1998 against UCLA. They university shelled out thousands and thousands of dollars on baby sitters, car rentals, hotel rooms, meals, shopping sprees. Not for the players oh no, but for board members, regents, important alumni, wives of coaches, wives of people that had nothing to actually do with the football team.

[Deputy Nutz]

well, if you haven't heard about this story yeat you must be living with your head in your ass. this is making all other college sports scandals look like childs play

our own sam shields is one of the 72 miami hurricane players that has been named as excepting "illegal" gifts

keep in mind before you read my rant that this shouldn't effect shields at all

now as a huge hurricanes fan, ahem.........

FUCK THAT MOTHER FUCKING BULLSHIT, YOU GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME. you're fooling yourself if you think every single BCS team doesn't also do the same damn thing. now miami is probably gonna be banned from ever playing in a bowl game again, be stripped of all its scholorships, and they might even separate the whole miami area from the rest of the country and push it out into the ocean.

you start to read these story and they make this players out to be the worst animals in the world. when you read the laundry list of players and what they recieved, you quickly realize that most of them received food and drinks at this dudes houses or yacht.

keep in mind, the school, conference and the NCAA are raking in millions from these players

now brace yourself for this

sam shields he accepted a 42 inch TV. he also got free drinks and VIP access at a bar one time. he also went to the guys house once for more food and drinks. HOW DARE HE EAT AND DRINK.

thats it for him, and that's it for most of the players. most received a few thousand dollars worth of shit over the 4 years they were there. while everyone else made billions

the NCAA is a complete joke at this point and needs to just go away

you forgot about the strippers, the hookers, the cash, the abortions, the apartments, and the cars. Cash payouts on bounties of opposing players.

[Packgator]

The real problem is that ultimately there's really no way to stop this sort of thing. I mean, no matter how much you're getting paid to do what you do, if a booster or other fan offers you a TV or some cash under the table on top of that, are you really going to say no to that? I'm not sure there's anything that can be done to prevent this sort of thing from happening

That's exactly right. If you pay them (say 1000 per month) it won't stop those so inclined from giving them more on top of the pay.

[Deputy Nutz]

The real problem is that ultimately there's really no way to stop this sort of thing. I mean, no matter how much you're getting paid to do what you do, if a booster or other fan offers you a TV or some cash under the table on top of that, are you really going to say no to that? Do you even necessarily believe that this is wrong? There's really no threat of being found out until it's too late, anyway. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done to prevent this sort of thing from happening. I mean, it ought to be expected that a college would stop this sort of thing before it went as far as it did in Miami (Shapiro lead the team out of the tunnel on two occasions, his luxury box was right next to the AD's, somebody should have looked into this), but stuff like this is pretty impossible to completely eliminate.

I suppose you could probably allow college athletes to profit from personal appearances, signing autographs, selling their personal property, and other perfectly behavior that the NCAA bans profiting from, so taking money under the table would be much less appealing for star players. But that's unlikely to happen.

Also, who is going to have the responsiblity to deside who gets how much money? Is it set in stone? Does the 2nd string kicker get as much as the all american qb?

.........................

Football makes a lot of Money but it sure spends a lot of money.

[mraynrand]

Say, are you guys trying to tell me that college football players get paid? Oh, the Horror! Oh, the HUMANITY!

No Gear for Tats, that's what I say! http://shutoutsports.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/jim-tressel-resigns1-150x150.jpg Fry the scofflaw bastards. You want to play college ball - no money - except for the schools, TV, the leagues, etc. etc. But no money for the players. A useful scholarship for all those brainiacs should be plenty.

[mraynrand]

who is going to have the responsiblity to deside who gets how much money

I'd be happy to take care of it:

http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Brandt_Andrew.jpg

[King Friday]

I think Title IX pretty much makes it impossible to pay the football players what they are truly worth. Besides, giving them a few hundred bucks more a game is a joke, when guys are pocketing six digit checks to sign on with a program.

I think you need to hold coaches and athletic departments more responsible for this type of crap. Forget skipping bowl bids, eliminating scholarships and vacating wins...what does that accomplish? Write up some bans on coaches and ADs from the NCAA depending on the level of infraction. If a head coach knows he is risking a 5 year ban from the NCAA, he'll be less likely to look the other way on a lot of stuff. If the AD knows his cushy gig is at risk, he'll ask a lot more questions of the coaches and compliance dept.

[Patler]

What about the athletes on so-called "minor sports". No less uniquely talented than their football-playing counterparts. Don't they deserve 42" TVs just as much? They get along fine without all the perks that football players seem to think they are entitled to and some seem to think they can't live without.

One of my kids was a D-I athlete at a well-known "sports school". Living within the NCAA restrictions was just a matter of paying attention.


my thinking is that, if those other sports were bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars to the schools, conferences, coaches, NCAA, the tv networks, etc, well then they could get more too

but lets face it, the mens and womens lacross teams don't bring in anywhere near what football and mens basketball rakes in

That argument doesn't wash when you compare it to nonathlete students who work on research projects that bring in millions and millions beyond what the football programs do. The football players are compensated much better than their intellectual counterparts as it is.

Colleges and universities have many, many ways of making huge sums off the labors of their students. It's not just football players who are taken advantage of, yet for some reason people are concerned for the fairness to the football players.

[Packers4Glory]

I honestly haven't followed the story very closely at all. I'm as burned out about these NCAA violations as I was from the MLB steroid BS. Just tired and uninterested.

What is funny is how these guys decide to throw people or teams under the bus. I don't know why this guy chose to just rooffie the entire Miami athletic program and then drive a bus over it but its pretty ridiculous.

[Upnorth]

That argument doesn't wash when you compare it to nonathlete students who work on research projects that bring in millions and millions beyond what the football programs do. The football players are compensated much better than their intellectual counterparts as it is.

Colleges and universities have many, many ways of making huge sums off the labors of their students. It's not just football players who are taken advantage of, yet for some reason people are concerned for the fairness to the football players.

They get research grants which include pay

[mraynrand]

That argument doesn't wash when you compare it to nonathlete students who work on research projects that bring in millions and millions beyond what the football programs do. The football players are compensated much better than their intellectual counterparts as it is.

The Principe Investigators - the heads of the labs - write the grants that bring in the money. Undergraduates who work in the labs, at an equivalent level to football players, do mostly low-level, entry-level work, including glassware washing. A few contribute significantly, but they are rewarded with research publications and better resumes. They are mostly paid or get piddly internship level money. They do not bring in the money. No one travels hundreds of miles to watch them work in the lab on Saturday and no television crew broadcasts their glassware washing. ESPN doesn't show highlights.

[Patler]

They get research grants which include pay


Yes some do, but it is not always very much in comparison to what is paid to the University. All in all, top football players have a better deal. I was personally involved with one research project that paid a University several million. It "sponsored" a doctoral student who was not compensated from the program because it was his thesis project. It laso compensated 3 or 4 undergrads as their workstudy job (minimal hourly pay. The rest ($millions) went to the University coffers.

[Patler]

The Principe Investigators - the heads of the labs - write the grants that bring in the money. Undergraduates who work in the labs, at an equivalent level to football players, do mostly low-level, entry-level work, including glassware washing. A few contribute significantly, but they are rewarded with research publications and better resumes. They are mostly paid or get piddly internship level money. They do not bring in the money. No one travels hundreds of miles to watch them work in the lab on Saturday and no television crew broadcasts their glassware washing. ESPN doesn't show highlights.

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

[woodbuck27]

Can he return the 42 " TV to the Miami University Social Club as a chartable donation; and get an exemption from all liability? He's aready (p) assed all of the food and drinks. He's likely gotten over or never got anywhere with 'the Hooker' that came with that VIP Pass.

What's the issue?

[Fritz]

But I think the amateur thing is a key part of how the NCAA presents itself. Take that away (or, more accurately, acknowledge the true extent of institutional corruption) and the NCAA loses its whole mystique. I just don't think college football could be the industry it is if it acknowledged that many of the players in its top programs were essentially poorly paid pros. Thought experiment: Do you think the Olympics lost something when it started allowing pro athletes to compete in basketball, hockey, etc.? I do.

Well, Hoosier, I prefer the honest approach in part because I don't think the NCAA has any "mystique" left at all. It's a scam, a sham. As for your thought experiment, that's a different situation because the Olympics allowed an entirely different set of people to compete. And the Olympics in any case had already lost its luster years and years ago in my eyes anyway. Just like the NCAA did. In the case of my proposal, it'd be the same set of people, but acknowledging that they're really there to develop their skills in hopes of landing in a pro career. This is what major league baseball does.

[hoosier]

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

Are you speaking of undergraduates or graduate students? Big difference. As Rand said, undergraduate labor is cheap because it's entirely replaceable. If Joe doesn't want to wash beakers and mix solutions for $10/hour then Suzy will gladly do it. Graduate students receive stipends and, more importantly, their contributions to the field (which can be significant but are not always indispensible) are part of their apprenticeship. The football player:student analogy doesn't quite work for me, even if it's referring to more highly trained graduate students. First, because the monies involved are not comparable (compare Alvarez's and Bielema's salaries to that of a senior professor in the sciences) and second because the college athlete is what sells whereas the professor's name is frequently what brings in high quality grad students in the first place.

[hoosier]

Well, Hoosier, I prefer the honest approach in part because I don't think the NCAA has any "mystique" left at all. It's a scam, a sham. As for your thought experiment, that's a different situation because the Olympics allowed an entirely different set of people to compete. And the Olympics in any case had already lost its luster years and years ago in my eyes anyway. Just like the NCAA did. In the case of my proposal, it'd be the same set of people, but acknowledging that they're really there to develop their skills in hopes of landing in a pro career. This is what major league baseball does.

OK, I see your point. You're just more jaded (realistic) than me. :-)

[sharpe1027]

I don't buy the whole poor college kids angle. Nobody is forcing them to play football and take the scholarship. It is a (relatively) free country, and if it is such a bad deal they could play in the Canadian league for a couple years before the NFL or start their own league. Most businesses have a similar situation where the guys on top make insane amounts of money, while many of the employees do not.

If they change the rules to let the players make additional the money, I'd be OK with that if they were smart about it. But they haven't done that yet. Bottom line, the rules were broken and everyone knew they were breaking them. Enforce the rules that were already in place, but feel free to change them in the future.

[sharpe1027]

The Principe Investigators - the heads of the labs - write the grants that bring in the money. Undergraduates who work in the labs, at an equivalent level to football players, do mostly low-level, entry-level work, including glassware washing. A few contribute significantly, but they are rewarded with research publications and better resumes. They are mostly paid or get piddly internship level money. They do not bring in the money. No one travels hundreds of miles to watch them work in the lab on Saturday and no television crew broadcasts their glassware washing. ESPN doesn't show highlights.

These same students are also inventors of technologies that can be worth a ridiculous amount of money, yet the university owns the rights to the technology. How is a publication and a better resume a fair shake in that situation? You can argue that the athletes also get a better (NFL) resume by playing in college and that they get more than the equivalent of publications with all the publicity that the university does for them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

September 17: Ohio State at Miami. Will they bill it as The Probation Bowl?

I just remember the Notre Dame-Miami rivalry game was always "Catholics vrs. Criminals"

[mraynrand]

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

Not typically undergrads - if you want to compare apples to apples. If you want to start talking graduate students and post docs, that's a different story.

[mraynrand]

If you took the revenues generated by the football program and gave 40-50% of it to the athletes to be distributed that would be reasonably fair. I say, still give them the four year eligibility - some will choose to get educated right away, and for others, having that guaranteed college opportunity waiting for them when they finish attempting to play in the NFL or elsewhere is far more valuable and sensical than having them blow it on basket weaving 101. A lot of these guys won't mature for a long time and they blow their physical bodies with nothing to show for it AND they've lost their chance to use their education. Many need remedial education just to take advantage of college in the first place. I say pay them for their on-field efforts and guarantee that four year education, to be cashed in whenever they want.

[mraynrand]

These same students are also inventors of technologies that can be worth a ridiculous amount of money, yet the university owns the rights to the technology. How is a publication and a better resume a fair shake in that situation?

The situation you describe is more rare for undergraduates than graduates, post-docs, and Principle Investigators. As for the specific case, people go into university research knowing they might give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But the resume and the track record and the recommendation from a prof get you to your own position running your own lab - if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you come up with some hot technology or biological breakthrough, you will be writing your own ticket. I know six Nobel Laureates personally who went through the undergraduate, graduate, post-doc route. 1 of 6 'struck it rich' in his post-doc and the other 5 had long-term established labs before getting the prize. Still, to be fair, half of them did their best work right out of their post-docs. Much of the earnings they made on their technology came from participating in independent businesses that made products from their discoveries, but I don't recall exactly how much the universities got from those endeavors. The universities clean up though in grant funding - both for the specific individuals and their labs - and also because they are the institutions that can claim they fostered nobel prize winners - a not so insignificant attraction. In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.

[Smidgeon]

That argument doesn't wash when you compare it to nonathlete students who work on research projects that bring in millions and millions beyond what the football programs do. The football players are compensated much better than their intellectual counterparts as it is.

Colleges and universities have many, many ways of making huge sums off the labors of their students. It's not just football players who are taken advantage of, yet for some reason people are concerned for the fairness to the football players.

In my opinion, it all comes down to hero worship. In America, that hero worship revolves around football players. Because that hero worship is so fanatic, there's money to be made, and organizations capitalize on it. I don't think anything will be solved as long as football is as important as it is.

It reminds me of an article I read a while back about hazing in sports. It listed all the legal hazing violations in sports (high school through pro) with a basic summary. Some of these things were brutal and incredibly humiliating (including way too many "sodomozing with a broom handle" stories). But the thing that really jumped out to me was that time and time again "the parents didn't press charges". Now, there are a variety of reasons this could have been the case: 1) wanting the situation to die down quickly, 2) wanting to move on and not drag out a humiliation, 3) pressure by the school to not sink the program, 4) the importance of the sport and team being placed over the importance of the child's well being (my gut feeling as to the number one reason, but I could be wrong), or more.

The point is, people will break the rules and sweep evidence under the rug for the sake of the sport they love. Do I understand it? Yes. Do I condone it? Absolutely not. I think it's indicative of a value system that's in dire shape and has damaging consequences to the psyche of American youth (and American parents for that matter).

Just my thoughts and all I'm going to say on the topic.

[mraynrand]

....including way too many "sodomozing with a broom handle" stories.....

The point is, people will break the rules and sweep evidence under the rug for the sake of the sport they love.

Hopefully they are not using the same broom.

[sharpe1027]

[] people go into university research knowing they might give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But the resume and the track record and the recommendation from a prof get you to your own position running your own lab - if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you come up with some hot technology or biological breakthrough, you will be writing your own ticket. ... In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.

College athletes go into university teams knowing they will give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But their college resumes and the track record, the publicity and the recommendation from their coaches get you to your own position in the pros- if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you are a gifted athlete with a great skill set, you will be writing your own ticket. In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.

;)

[Scott Campbell]

Hopefully they are not using the same broom.


Geez.

I promise to use a clean broom on you next time. How long are you going to stay mad about that?

[sharpe1027]

If you took the revenues generated by the football program and gave 40-50% of it to the athletes to be distributed that would be reasonably fair. I say, still give them the four year eligibility - some will choose to get educated right away, and for others, having that guaranteed college opportunity waiting for them when they finish attempting to play in the NFL or elsewhere is far more valuable and sensical than having them blow it on basket weaving 101. A lot of these guys won't mature for a long time and they blow their physical bodies with nothing to show for it AND they've lost their chance to use their education. Many need remedial education just to take advantage of college in the first place. I say pay them for their on-field efforts and guarantee that four year education, to be cashed in whenever they want.

Would you remove all restrictions on non-university funds being given to college students? Would you allow anyone to give/loan them money? If not, you still have the same problem. Granted, there would be less temptation because athletes would have more "legit" money. If you do, I think that you might see a lot more kids being taken advantage of.

[mraynrand]

Would you remove all restrictions on non-university funds being given to college students? Would you allow anyone to give/loan them money? If not, you still have the same problem.

Good questions. Maybe if it were all in the open I could stomach it. At least we'd know which institutions were recruiting high school stars with sports cars, etc.

[sharpe1027]

Good questions. Maybe if it were all in the open I could stomach it. At least we'd know which institutions were recruiting high school stars with sports cars, etc.

Yeah, some transparency would be an improvement, but so would actually enforcing the rules as they stand now. You can never stop it completely, but right now the NCAA has their heads buried 10 feet deep in the sand. Nothing happens unless someone breaks a story in the news and even then they aren't guaranteed to do anything.

Miami didn't get busted for using their own funds; it was a third-party. That's part of the reason that I'm not sure that the answer is to have the universities to give the players money. The temptation is still there.

[red]

this is a must read, just an awesome article

http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news;_ylt=AgpvyYZncrUh6i4LCOBYpQM5nYcB?slug=dw-wetzel_miami_scandal_scene_081711

[cheesner]

I don't see this as a problem, if you look at the big picture. A 42" high def, big picture, as Sam does.

[Joemailman]

I just remember the Notre Dame-Miami rivalry game was always "Catholics vrs. Criminals"

Actually, Catholics vs. Convicts. They weren't just criminal. They were guilty.

[ND72]

I honestly haven't followed the story very closely at all. I'm as burned out about these NCAA violations as I was from the MLB steroid BS. Just tired and uninterested.

What is funny is how these guys decide to throw people or teams under the bus. I don't know why this guy chose to just rooffie the entire Miami athletic program and then drive a bus over it but its pretty ridiculous.

He reached out to some of the NFL players and some of those coaches to ask them to pay his bail, and they refused to...so he started talking. Kind of funny to me. Everything will always come back to get ya....especially syphilis.

[Patler]

Not typically undergrads - if you want to compare apples to apples. If you want to start talking graduate students and post docs, that's a different story.

Sure it is. A lot of research involves mundane, grunt,repetitive testing and data gathering that is often done by the undergrads, not the graduate students or profs. Kind of like the 99% of the football players who will never have a professional career. Fans don't come to watch the no name center and guards.

[cheesner]

Here's my idea:

Open the NFL draft to all college players. However, they only get to play when they turn 21 or are in their third year of college. They can do minicamps, but not full contact in spring during OTAs. They would get a set salary that would afford them decent college living. NFL teams would have limit of x number of players on developmental squad. It would be big gamble for teams drafting late to take shots on these promising freshmen kids and get to help with their development.

[mraynrand]

Sure it is. A lot of research involves mundane, grunt,repetitive testing and data gathering that is often done by the undergrads, not the graduate students or profs.

The grad students and post docs do the bulk of the grunt work - by far.

[Pugger]

Everything is driven by greed, dear. I can see them not wanting the schools to pay athletes, but to say that they can't hold a job while they're in school is ridiculous. If there is a company that wants to hire them, it is their prerogative to work while in school as long as they keep their athletic eligibility.

+1

I'm with Zig here. This is crazy. A kid on any other type of scholarship can get a job flipping burgers to earn spending money but student athletes cannot? :cnf:

[digitaldean]

Plain and simple, some of the common sense is missing with the NCAA regulations. Let the kids get a legit job to earn some cash on the side.
That being said, they are getting paid with an education, which per the Univ of Miami website equals approx. $160,000. I don't know about you, but that SHOULD mean something. I have to bust my ASS off to save to put my kids through college (and that's including 2 yrs jr. college then staying in state to keep tuition down).
If you have the talent and can earn that scholarship, more power to you. But please don't tell me you are being exploited. Frankly, I'm damn tired of it.
Some of the NCAA rules are flat out idiotic on how coaches and players can interact. I get that, those should be changed. Yeah the networks are making money. But the kids are getting paid with their education. I may be accused of being simplistic, but that education, that degree (which is supposed to be used when they're done with their athletic careers) should mean something.

[pbmax]

Here's my idea:

Open the NFL draft to all college players. However, they only get to play when they turn 21 or are in their third year of college. They can do minicamps, but not full contact in spring during OTAs. They would get a set salary that would afford them decent college living. NFL teams would have limit of x number of players on developmental squad. It would be big gamble for teams drafting late to take shots on these promising freshmen kids and get to help with their development.

Far too logical for real world application.

[mraynrand]

That being said, they are getting paid with an education, which per the Univ of Miami website equals approx. $160,000.

But the kids are getting paid with their education.

I may be accused of being simplistic, but that education, that degree (which is supposed to be used when they're done with their athletic careers) should mean something.

You are being simplistic - or rather, pollyannaish. I worked for two years in college as a student athlete tutor. Students are all over the map in their abilities. Shouldn't shock you that many of the swimmers were very smart and worked hard at their classes, while hockey, basketball, and football players in general were much more challenged. Of what use is a 160,000 education if you have the skill set of a sixth grader? Universities are making tons of money off college athletes and they, and cackling alumni congratulate themselves on what a fine institute of higher learning they have. For many athletes, this is a total crock of shit.

[mraynrand]

Everything is driven by greed, dear. I can see them not wanting the schools to pay athletes, but to say that they can't hold a job while they're in school is ridiculous. If there is a company that wants to hire them, it is their prerogative to work while in school as long as they keep their athletic eligibility.


Your argument presupposes they need, have time for, or have any interest in a part time job. What are you smoking? So these guys are supposed to attend classes, work out all the time to stay in shape for football, and then work a part time job? Ever try it? I know I will get the stories from all of you who worked your way through college with full time employment, etc. etc. I get it. I worked in college too. But I didn't spend however many hours a day in exhausting physical training so I could play a brutal contact sport. Many of these guys - who are serious about their studies - finish their days physically spent and struggle to stay awake getting their course work completed. I'm talking the reasonably serious students - the pre-med guys, the business school guys, etc. Just pay them from what they earn for the University on the field.

[Patler]

The grad students and post docs do the bulk of the grunt work - by far.

Not in the many research programs that I was directly involved in for 20 years. Typical staffing for our multi-year programs was something like this:

1 prof to sign off, carry the headlines and do little direct work
2 doctoral candidates and post docs who did the analytical work, designed follow-up tests, supervised, etc.
4 or more undergrads and students in straight masters programs who did the tests and gathered data.

[pbmax]

I think the University of Miami (indeed, all schools) should give the value of their free education is wholesale dollars, or their cost. Whenever I see those public figures, I am reminded of police confiscations of drugs, always valued at millions of dollars in "street value" at press time. I would love to see the chart they use to convert it at the Police Station.

The comparison is not between the scholarship athlete and someone off the street. The comparison is between what the athlete helps the University earn versus its costs.

[pbmax]

By the way Bretsky, you should be penalized with a 2 week suspension of your anti-homer title. :)

[sharpe1027]

If it is such a bad deal, why do any players bother with playing college sports? They should either just pay for school on their own and not play sports or work straight out of high-school. That is, unless either they are all idiots, or perhaps it really is a good deal for most of them.

Many/most people are greedy and will always want more even if it is against the rules. Pay the college players more and they'll still want even more. Unless you de-reglate the entire thing and make it an entirely professional game, I don't think you solve underlying the problem.

[pbmax]

If it is such a bad deal, why do any players bother with playing college sports? They should either just pay for school on their own and not play sports or work straight out of high-school. That is, unless either they are all idiots, or perhaps it really is a good deal for most of them.

Many/most people are greedy and will always want more even if it is against the rules. Pay the college players more and they'll still want even more. Unless you de-reglate the entire thing and make it an entirely professional game, I don't think you solve underlying the problem.

Because for football, the only tried and true route to the Pros is through college. Look at what happened in basketball when they were able to skip college, many of them did. Given the chance, many players who aspire to be pros would skip college and go to a minor league system, as in baseball, basketball and hockey.

[Upnorth]

Not in the many research programs that I was directly involved in for 20 years. Typical staffing for our multi-year programs was something like this:

1 prof to sign off, carry the headlines and do little direct work
2 doctoral candidates and post docs who did the analytical work, designed follow-up tests, supervised, etc.
4 or more undergrads and students in straight masters programs who did the tests and gathered data.

This may all be true, and I believe you are right. The difference is there are many more undergrad and masters students who can do this work than there are football players who can play at that level. By default pay should reflect this. Once you get to the PhD level stipends begin being paid as there are far fewer able to carry out this work, but there are more doctoral students than there are football players. Do you see where I am going with this?

[mraynrand]

Not in the many research programs that I was directly involved in for 20 years. Typical staffing for our multi-year programs was something like this:

1 prof to sign off, carry the headlines and do little direct work
2 doctoral candidates and post docs who did the analytical work, designed follow-up tests, supervised, etc.
4 or more undergrads and students in straight masters programs who did the tests and gathered data.

I'm more in the biological field, so maybe it's different in certain technical, engineering or other specialties. However, in the biology, biochemistry, chemistry, biomedical engineering, physics, and other departments with which I'm affiliated or aware of, undergraduates do very little in the way of key experiments. In fact, in many ways they can be a drain on the current productivity of the lab they're in. Even highly talented undergrads carrying out honors theses tend to extract more in training than they give back in productivity. In the highly focused undergraduate teaching institutes, you can sometimes parlay the efforts of a crew of undergraduates to generate a study, with the intense oversight of a highly involved professor. If you look on Pubmed, I would expect the papers you see published in the journals there probably have as lead authors 95% graduate level or above. Graduates get a stipend and post-docs a salary for a reason - they are expected to produce - and produce a lot. Undergraduates are expecting to get trained for their chance at graduate school. They are paying the school, with their tuition, for this training. It's not the other way around.

[sharpe1027]

Because for football, the only tried and true route to the Pros is through college. Look at what happened in basketball when they were able to skip college, many of them did. Given the chance, many players who aspire to be pros would skip college and go to a minor league system, as in baseball, basketball and hockey.

Very few players in any sport go straight from high-school to the pros. Even if you include all players that eventually make the NFL, that only accounts for a tiny fraction of all of the players. Is it really a good ideal to revamp the entire college system because a handful of players that might otherwise go straight to the NFL are being "forced" to go to college for a few years?

[Patler]

I'm more in the biological field, so maybe it's different in certain technical, engineering or other specialties. However, in the biology, biochemistry, chemistry, biomedical engineering, physics, and other departments with which I'm affiliated or aware of, undergraduates do very little in the way of key experiments. In fact, in many ways they can be a drain on the current productivity of the lab they're in. Even highly talented undergrads carrying out honors theses tend to extract more in training than they give back in productivity. In the highly focused undergraduate teaching institutes, you can sometimes parlay the efforts of a crew of undergraduates to generate a study, with the intense oversight of a highly involved professor. If you look on Pubmed, I would expect the papers you see published in the journals there probably have as lead authors 95% graduate level or above. Graduates get a stipend and post-docs a salary for a reason - they are expected to produce - and produce a lot. Undergraduates are expecting to get trained for their chance at graduate school. They are paying the school, with their tuition, for this training. It's not the other way around.

What I was involved in was industry contracted research, for both chemical processes and mechanical equipment. For a lot of schools, that is the bread and butter of their research income. Funded, pie-in-the-sky research for the sake of research gets a lot of the headlines, and probably most of the journal articles, but industry sponsored and industry directed research brings in a lot of the money. Basically, it's specific research projects that a manufacturer (typically) is not staffed or equipped to handle themselves. In one of my "lives" we used several universities who had very specialized grad schools to either duplicate our own research as a verification, are to piggyback with ours to reduce development time and get new processes or equipment introduced to the industry in a shorter time period. Upperclass undergrads did a lot of the grunt work, which often entailed babysitting equipment and gathering data. Their names rarely appeared on anything.

[pbmax]

Very few players in any sport go straight from high-school to the pros. Even if you include all players that eventually make the NFL, that only accounts for a tiny fraction of all of the players. Is it really a good ideal to revamp the entire college system because a handful of players that might otherwise go straight to the NFL are being "forced" to go to college for a few years?

Yes, because the interests of the colleges and the pros are conflicted and it is the individuals who suffer. Players who do not want to be in school are forced to be in school which causes many of the problems under discussion. And those who would be willing to go to play in a minor league system are subjected to a system that compensates them for their work in only one manner and it is non-negotiable.

The problem is that no one wants to pay for the minor league system when there is already a system available. If the NCAA only needed to worry about actual student-athletes, its job would be easier and less hypocritical. As it is, the NCAA (joined by the NFL on occasion) is the hammer that keeps the minor league system in place and its a role it should not play.

[mraynrand]

Upperclass undergrads did a lot of the grunt work, which often entailed babysitting equipment and gathering data. Their names rarely appeared on anything.

So relevant to this comparison to football players - were they ostensibly getting training, were they essentially being exploited for grunt work, or both? Even with the potential money involved for industry, the undergraduates you describe are clearly not the 'attraction' itself, that brings in the money like the college football players people watch on Saturdays. They are most likely working like indentured servants, hoping to be a graduate student then post-doc, and eventually the prof in the university or the team leader in industry pushing the buttons. Unskilled labor working up the ladder - far different from college players, dontcha think?

[sharpe1027]

Yes, because the interests of the colleges and the pros are conflicted and it is the individuals who suffer. Players who do not want to be in school are forced to be in school which causes many of the problems under discussion. And those who would be willing to go to play in a minor league system are subjected to a system that compensates them for their work in only one manner and it is non-negotiable.

The problem is that no one wants to pay for the minor league system when there is already a system available. If the NCAA only needed to worry about actual student-athletes, its job would be easier and less hypocritical. As it is, the NCAA (only recently joined by the NFL) is the hammer that keeps the minor league system in place and its a role it should not play.

What is this "suffering" you refer to? On the average, the college athletes I knew were about as far from "suffering" as anyone in school. I know, I know, it is so terribly unfair that there no minor league football system, but that is how the system is setup. Either play by the rules or choose another path. Life is full of conflicting desires. I have a conflicting desire for a billion dollars and the system is setup so that I have to some how earn that money legally. Maybe I should go rob a bank and blame it on this unfair system. It couldn't possibly be that I am a greedy and impatient person.

The players took the money/benefits knowing full well it was against the rules. I don't buy portraying them as the innocent victims.

[Patler]

Very few players in any sport go straight from high-school to the pros. Even if you include all players that eventually make the NFL, that only accounts for a tiny fraction of all of the players. Is it really a good ideal to revamp the entire college system because a handful of players that might otherwise go straight to the NFL are being "forced" to go to college for a few years?

A lot of 18-22 year old players make it to the NHL before they would finish college eligibility, but hockey has a well-developed "juniors" program that many use as an alternative to college or as a predecessor to college, and a minor league system to follow juniors or college for players not ready for or not skilled enough for the NHL. Many also leave college early to play minor league hockey.

Of course, minor league baseball is the primary path to MLB, even for college baseball players.

Football has no minor league system and instead takes advantage of college football to serve as their minor leagues.

This of course begs the question of whether or not colleges really should be in the business of sponsoring minor league football for the NFL, which is really what D-I programs are. Maybe the NCAA should take more of an academic emphasis and leave nonacademic athletes to look for other opportunities. A whole new business could result, minor league football similar to minor league hockey and minor league baseball. In many ways, I would prefer that. There are some who have "careers" in the minors both in baseball and hockey. Some can earn a decent living in minor hockey well into their 30's. That opportunity is not there for football players, but could be if a minor league system was available that was not tied to NCAA eligibility.

[mraynrand]

What is this "suffering" you refer to? On the average, the college athletes I knew were about as far from "suffering" as anyone in school. I know, I know, it is so terribly unfair that there no minor league football system, but that is how the system is setup. Either play by the rules or choose another path. Life is full of conflicting desires. I have a conflicting desire for a billion dollars and the system is setup so that I have to some how earn that money legally. Maybe I should go rob a bank and blame it on this unfair system. It couldn't possibly be that I am a greedy and impatient person.

The players took the money/benefits knowing full well it was against the rules. I don't buy portraying them as the innocent victims.


MY two cents: The players violated the rules and should get spanked. I don't think most players are suffering, but a lot of activity is going on under the table. Football is a huge money making enterprise and the players are a big part of the draw. The benefits of their free education are completely uneven, depending on their competency for schooling. Some get great benefit, other actually are harmed. The spectrum is wide. I outlined my suggestion earlier in the thread. My basic thinking is to pay them and reduce the rules - many are absurd, such as those regarding payment for plane tickets, family visits, even haircut monies in some cases. Simplify and streamline. One of the main problems as I see it are these alumni who want to maintain this appearance as a pristine institution of higher education but want to grease the skids to get the best players on their teams - regardless of their fitness for higher education. The whole scheme breeds and encourages hypocrisy and scofflaws.

[mraynrand]

Maybe the NCAA should take more of an academic emphasis and leave nonacademic athletes to look for other opportunities. A whole new business could result, minor league football similar to minor league hockey and minor league baseball. In many ways, I would prefer that. There are some who have "careers" in the minors both in baseball and hockey. Some can earn a decent living in minor hockey well into their 30's. That opportunity is not there for football players, but could be if a minor league system was available that was not tied to NCAA eligibility.

The Alumni would never let this happen.

[hoosier]

MY two cents: The players violated the rules and should get spanked. I don't think most players are suffering, but a lot of activity is going on under the table. Football is a huge money making enterprise and the players are a big part of the draw. The benefits of their free education are completely uneven, depending on their competency for schooling. Some get great benefit, other actually are harmed. The spectrum is wide. I outlined my suggestion earlier in the thread. My basic thinking is to pay them and reduce the rules - many are absurd, such as those regarding payment for plane tickets, family visits, even haircut monies in some cases. Simplify and streamline. One of the main problems as I see it are these alumni who want to maintain this appearance as a pristine institution of higher education but want to grease the skids to get the best players on their teams - regardless of their fitness for higher education. The whole scheme breeds and encourages hypocrisy and scofflaws.

In this case I think the bigger point is the apparent deep complicit of the institution at many different levels. It's "The U" that should get spanked.

[sharpe1027]

MY two cents: The players violated the rules and should get spanked. I don't think most players are suffering, but a lot of activity is going on under the table. Football is a huge money making enterprise and the players are a big part of the draw. The benefits of their free education are completely uneven, depending on their competency for schooling. Some get great benefit, other actually are harmed. The spectrum is wide. I outlined my suggestion earlier in the thread. My basic thinking is to pay them and reduce the rules - many are absurd, such as those regarding payment for plane tickets, family visits, even haircut monies in some cases. Simplify and streamline. One of the main problems as I see it are these alumni who want to maintain this appearance as a pristine institution of higher education but want to grease the skids to get the best players on their teams - regardless of their fitness for higher education. The whole scheme breeds and encourages hypocrisy and scofflaws.

I have no problem giving college players more than the receive now. I also have no problem not giving them more. I have a problem with setting up rules that can be broken by individuals that carry almost no consequences to breaking the rules.

The two types of people that break the rules are 1) a person outside of the program and 2) a player. (Sometimes a coach is involved, but usually it is indirectly). If an person outside the program breaks the rules, they might get banned from going to games. Whoopty doo. If a player gets caught, it is often after they are already done with their college career, and nothing much comes of it from their point of view.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Vince McMahon needs to bring back the XFL and make that the farm system for the NFL.

Oh, and bring back the stripper cheerleaders too.

[mraynrand]

In this case I think the bigger point is the apparent deep complicit of the institution at many different levels. It's "The U" that should get spanked.

Yep - proportionately more than any punishment for the players

[pbmax]

What is this "suffering" you refer to? On the average, the college athletes I knew were about as far from "suffering" as anyone in school. I know, I know, it is so terribly unfair that there no minor league football system, but that is how the system is setup. Either play by the rules or choose another path. Life is full of conflicting desires. I have a conflicting desire for a billion dollars and the system is setup so that I have to some how earn that money legally. Maybe I should go rob a bank and blame it on this unfair system. It couldn't possibly be that I am a greedy and impatient person.

The players took the money/benefits knowing full well it was against the rules. I don't buy portraying them as the innocent victims.

Suffering in this case would be relative. The NCAA gets what it wants: college football with the best players for 3 years, large infusion of cash, hopes and dreams to sell to alumni, in return for donations to the Athletic Dept and the Library Fund. It also funds (along with basketball and the occasional other sport like hockey or Wom's basketball) the rest of the Athletic Department.

The NFL gets its minor league system and pays nothing for it.

The players get a college scholarship that many do not want, subjected to rules they have no interest in abiding and are denied the right to practice their profession for a wage.

What is the old line? They are holding on to a Lion by its tail and the only reason they continue to do so is that letting go would be worse. The NCAA would suffer a reduction in income from less-than-stellar rosters (this has happened in basketball*), exciting fewer boosters and losing an opportunity to increase the endowment. The NFL not only doesn't pay, but doesn't need to worry except in cases like Clarett or Pryor. And Title IX advocates are worried that such an arrangement would mean a loss of money to fund other athletic programs.

* The effect on college basketball will be fascinating to watch, as there is not nearly the interest in the regular season as there once was. But March Madness is just one event and can be maximized only by allowing more teams and games, which will return less and less to the coffers. I think Men's CBB will be shortly tapped out, at least in its ability to grow revenues faster than costs.

[mraynrand]

If a player gets caught, it is often after they are already done with their college career, and nothing much comes of it from their point of view.

except when you have to give back the Heisman...

[pbmax]

The Alumni would never let this happen.

Exactly the point. And in more than one way. Fundraising not just for the Athletic Dept but the University as a whole would suffer.

[mraynrand]

Exactly the point. And in more than one way. Fundraising not just for the Athletic Dept but the University as a whole would suffer.

And that's probably why they will never pay the players - they need that money for other things

[sharpe1027]

Suffering in this case would be relative.

Fair enough that it is relative. I tend to think that the degree of suffering is not all that much for students that are: 1) able to go to school for free, 2) offered more help with their classes than just about anyone else, 3) held in high-esteem by most supporters of the school, 4) publicized and promoted by the school, and 5) have their skills developed by some of the best coaches.

I don't think the problem is not paying the students. I think the problem stems from how the rules are setup and (not) enforced. One problem is the enforcement issue mentioned above. Another problem is that a lot of the policing is left to the universities themselves.

You can solve the problem of players getting caught taking handouts by making handouts legal. Of course, you also can solve the problem of murders getting caught killing people by making it legal to kill people.

[Patler]

Exactly the point. And in more than one way. Fundraising not just for the Athletic Dept but the University as a whole would suffer.

I think that is over-estimated, especially if there is a transition and competitive balance remains in the college programs. Alumni want to see competitive equality (or superiority) compared to the rival colleges. Most have no clue about the actual quality of play except in comparison to the opponent on the field.

[mraynrand]

You can solve the problem of players getting caught taking handouts by making handouts legal. Of course, you also can solve the problem of murders getting caught killing people by making it legal to kill people.

:roll:

[sharpe1027]

:roll:

Yes, I understand that it was an extreme example. That's was the point of the analogy because it shows that simply removing the rule being broken doesn't always result in an improvement. There are reasons not to allow just anyone to throw insane amounts of money at college athletes. For starters, the money is given in exchange for things like going to a specific college, transferring to another college or even to throw games.

[pbmax]

Fair enough that it is relative. I tend to think that the degree of suffering is not all that much for students that are: 1) able to go to school for free, 2) offered more help with their classes than just about anyone else, 3) held in high-esteem by most supporters of the school, 4) publicized and promoted by the school, and 5) have their skills developed by some of the best coaches.

All these things would be great unless you simply wanted a job. And for skill development, it would happen much faster in a minor league, full time, than at school where practices are limited to 20 hours per week.

[pbmax]

I think that is over-estimated, especially if there is a transition and competitive balance remains in the college programs. Alumni want to see competitive equality (or superiority) compared to the rival colleges. Most have no clue about the actual quality of play except in comparison to the opponent on the field.

Possibly, but I think the dollar figures for regular season basketball television will soon suffer (if they haven't yet) compared to previous highs, adjusted for inflation. With less money, it will fall more and more on alumni/ticket buyers to keep the program among the top in terms of facilities, etc. I think that could exacerbate a competitive inbalance, leading to fewer schools at the top levels. Interest in such a situation could wane.

[sharpe1027]

All these things would be great unless you simply wanted a job. And for skill development, it would happen much faster in a minor league, full time, than at school where practices are limited to 20 hours per week.

I don't disagree that at least some athletes would prefer to skip college and play in a minor league system. I just don't see that as a legitimate reason to redo the entire college football setup. I am sure that some non-athlete students would prefer to get their training at a paid position rather than having to pay to go to school, yet plenty of profession require certain levels of schooling. Life's just not fair.

[Packgator]

Possibly, but I think the dollar figures for regular season basketball television will soon suffer (if they haven't yet) compared to previous highs, adjusted for inflation. With less money, it will fall more and more on alumni/ticket buyers to keep the program among the top in terms of facilities, etc. I think that could exacerbate a competitive inbalance, leading to fewer schools at the top levels. Interest in such a situation could wane.

""I think that could exacerbate a competitive inbalance, leading to fewer schools at the top levels.""

Just the opposite lately with Butler and VCU both in the Final Four this year. And Butler in two straight championship games.

[Patler]

I don't disagree that at least some athletes would prefer to skip college and play in a minor league system. I just don't see that as a legitimate reason to redo the entire college football setup. I am sure that some non-athlete students would prefer to get their training at a paid position rather than having to pay to go to school, yet plenty of profession require certain levels of schooling. Life's just not fair.

The legitimate reason for redoing the college football setup has little to do with what certain athletes want. The reason to redo the college football setup is that running a D-I football program (as currently run) really has only a small connection to the primary purposes for which colleges exist.

[sharpe1027]

That makes the most sense to me.

Maybe they should setup a separate non-profit entity for each school for the purpose of donating money back to the university through sports-based revenues.

[digitaldean]

You are being simplistic - or rather, pollyannaish. I worked for two years in college as a student athlete tutor. Students are all over the map in their abilities. Shouldn't shock you that many of the swimmers were very smart and worked hard at their classes, while hockey, basketball, and football players in general were much more challenged. Of what use is a 160,000 education if you have the skill set of a sixth grader? Universities are making tons of money off college athletes and they, and cackling alumni congratulate themselves on what a fine institute of higher learning they have. For many athletes, this is a total crock of shit.
Call it what you want, athletes are still given something of value, regardless if they capitalize on it or not. I agree with sharpe1027. WHERE do you draw the line? Do we see a bunch of college level Drew Rosenhaus or Scott Boras types roaming academia negotiating deals on what their "client" will or won't do?
I can see changing some of the arcane rules about having jobs or interaction between coaches and players/recruits. I get the fact that some of the football talent aren't going to graduate with honors. They may have a tough time graduating, period. But they are offered an opportunity that many our society can NEVER AFFORD or have to put themselves into serious hock to have their kids try and get a college degree.
I saw an ESPN round table on this topic with Jay Bilas, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer and other ADs. Found hypocrisy on both sides. Stoops and Meyer with their multimillion $ salaries saying the game is doomed with a stipend based system and Bilas arguing for paying the players. College athletics will NEVER be totally clean. But at least have some form of enforcement that will come down exceedingly hard on teams.
The fear of turning another college into SMU (who is still trying to recover from the death penalty) is paralyzing enforcement. Schools like the U (and that dumbass Donna Shalala) need to face the music. USC should have gotten nailed harder and OSU better be nailed (but I fear they will dump it all on Tressel and get off scott-free).
Schools need to see that regular enforcement will be in place for schools that turn into USC, Ohio St. or Miami. Shut down the football program for 1 year and see how it affects their income. Making teams forfeit their wins/titles is so bogus it's laughable.
If the NCAA doesn't have enough manpower for enforcement, then take a % from member conferences before they split their bowl money to charge for hiring more people to police the game.