Another boring money post

[SkinBasket]

Hey, smart money people, WWYD with 60k right now investment wise?

[Joemailman]

Pay off my mortgage.

[Deputy Nutz]

Strip club. You are investing in a person's future

[Partial]

Hey, smart money people, WWYD with 60k right now investment wise?

AAPL. Just saw a 12 month estimate at 610 USD. It's at 385 right now.

[SkinBasket]

Come on, I wanted the smart people to answer...

[HowardRoark]

Here's a boring answer:

large cap stocks with high dividend yields and good cash flow. Collect the dividend while you wait for the growth.......puts a floor on downside too.

[Joemailman]

Come on, I wanted the smart people to answer...

Did you send Tyrone a PM?

[Patler]

AAPL. Just saw a 12 month estimate at 610 USD. It's at 385 right now.

Your fascination with AAPL is blinding, isn't it? :lol:

The frustrating thing is that the $600/share estimate is not new, but they keep moving back the "expected by" date. To get to $610, AAPL would increase about 60% from its current price of around $385, but would have to increase around 50% from its high. It has a lot of new territory to go through to get to $600. I think there are other stocks that can do just as well, some of which will also kick in a nice dividend that AAPL does not. Stocks that have been unfairly punished over the last couple months.

I will continue to hold my AAPL stock, but doubt that I will be adding to it. I think there are "better buys" out there. Stocks that could return nearly 50% just by recovering to their recent highs of this year, from which they had been expected to gain 10%-20% just a couple months ago. There were no reasons for some of these stocks to have declined as much as they have, other than just the general market sell off.

[mraynrand]

Skin, buy a home or two and rent 'em. You would make a great slum lord.

[SkinBasket]

I will continue to hold my AAPL stock, but doubt that I will be adding to it. I think there are "better buys" out there. Stocks that could return nearly 50% just by recovering to their recent highs of this year, from which they had been expected to gain 10%-20% just a couple months ago. There were no reasons for some of these stocks to have declined as much as they have, other than just the general market sell off.

You should totally PM me an example or two... for research.

[SkinBasket]

Skin, buy a home or two and rent 'em. You would make a great slum lord.

I'm already a slum lord of my own home. Just not enough glory in it for me. No one recognizes my achievements.

[mraynrand]

I'm already a slum lord of my own home. Just not enough glory in it for me. No one recognizes my achievements.

OK. How about some emerging market Vanguard funds? You can mix in some safer stuff from Vanguard like Howie mentioned if you're a pussy.

[SkinBasket]

OK. How about some emerging market Vanguard funds? You can mix in some safer stuff from Vanguard like Howie mentioned if you're a pussy.

I can buy that kind of shit on Scottrade can't I?

[mraynrand]

I can buy that kind of shit on Scottrade can't I?

even from onboard the Scottrade helicopter, I'm told.

[MJZiggy]

Skin, buy a home or two and rent 'em. You would make a great slum lord.

A home OR TWO for $60K??? Are you kidding??? You can barely sneeze at one mortgage for that.

[retailguy]

A home OR TWO for $60K??? Are you kidding??? You can barely sneeze at one mortgage for that.

You can buy a half dozen homes in Detroit right now for 60k.

[mraynrand]

A home OR TWO for $60K??? Are you kidding??? You can barely sneeze at one mortgage for that.

You'd be surprised. I bought two homes - one for under 50K that sold three years earlier for 140K and another under 60K that sold two years earlier for 160K. Three rental units each, about 3K/mo. in rental income, 10-15K/year taxes and maintenance. See 31 seconds in....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM&feature=player_detailpage#t=30s

[Partial]

Your fascination with AAPL is blinding, isn't it? :lol:

The frustrating thing is that the $600/share estimate is not new, but they keep moving back the "expected by" date. To get to $610, AAPL would increase about 60% from its current price of around $385, but would have to increase around 50% from its high. It has a lot of new territory to go through to get to $600. I think there are other stocks that can do just as well, some of which will also kick in a nice dividend that AAPL does not. Stocks that have been unfairly punished over the last couple months.

I will continue to hold my AAPL stock, but doubt that I will be adding to it. I think there are "better buys" out there. Stocks that could return nearly 50% just by recovering to their recent highs of this year, from which they had been expected to gain 10%-20% just a couple months ago. There were no reasons for some of these stocks to have declined as much as they have, other than just the general market sell off.

I don't care how long it takes. Eventually AAPL will get to a 20ish PE like most other big companies. They're a steal and a half and not going anywhere any time soon. I don't have the time to day trade, so I stick with safe stocks mathematically backed to have big returns.

I'm more than happy with the 100% returns I've seen on my AAPL. I'll be overjoyed at 200% in a 3 year stint. That's pretty unbelievable.

[Patler]

I don't care how long it takes. Eventually AAPL will get to a 20ish PE like most other big companies. They're a steal and a half and not going anywhere any time soon. I don't have the time to day trade, so I stick with safe stocks mathematically backed to have big returns.

I'm more than happy with the 100% returns I've seen on my AAPL. I'll be overjoyed at 200% in a 3 year stint. That's pretty unbelievable.

Who said anything about day trading?

Your 100% return on AAPL is not all that unusual or unique for the period during which it happened. If you have a 100% return, you have owned the stock for around 2 years, at least. During that same time period, you would have had a 200% return already if you had bought PCLN ($500+ now, $160s just 2 years ago). CMI was in the low $40s 2 years ago and hit $120 earlier this year. CAT was in the $30s and $40s in the summer and fall of '09 and is in the high $80s now after having been above $110 for a while this spring and summer. DE went from the low $40s to above $90 and currently is around $80. HOG went from sub $20 to plus $40.

While your initial investment may increase by another 100% if AAPL hits $600, the gain for new money invested (or of the current value of your AAPL holding) will be around 60%. To get there, AAPL has to travel through a price territory that it has never been in. It is in a highly competitive market where one misstep could have a significant impact. I think AAPL is pretty well positioned to get to $600, but I also think there are some old, stodgy companies that might have similar returns from this time forward (if we don't go into another recession), and they can get there just by continuing to do what they have done for 100 years or more. To hedge my bets, I will probably buy some of those soon to hold along with the AAPL stock I already have.

[retailguy]

Priceless!

[mraynrand]

I don't care how long it takes. Eventually AAPL will get to a 20ish PE like most other big companies. They're a steal and a half and not going anywhere any time soon. I don't have the time to day trade, so I stick with safe stocks mathematically backed to have big returns.

I'm more than happy with the 100% returns I've seen on my AAPL. I'll be overjoyed at 200% in a 3 year stint. That's pretty unbelievable.


Who said anything about day trading?

Your 100% return on AAPL is not all that unusual or unique for the period during which it happened. If you have a 100% return, you have owned the stock for around 2 years, at least. During that same time period, you would have had a 200% return already if you had bought PCLN ($500+ now, $160s just 2 years ago). CMI was in the low $40s 2 years ago and hit $120 earlier this year. CAT was in the $30s and $40s in the summer and fall of '09 and is in the high $80s now after having been above $110 for a while this spring and summer. DE went from the low $40s to above $90 and currently is around $80. HOG went from sub $20 to plus $40.

While your initial investment may increase by another 100% if AAPL hits $600, the gain for new money invested (or of the current value of your AAPL holding) will be around 60%. To get there, AAPL has to travel through a price territory that it has never been in. It is in a highly competitive market where one misstep could have a significant impact. I think AAPL is pretty well positioned to get to $600, but I also think there are some old, stodgy companies that might have similar returns from this time forward (if we don't go into another recession), and they can get there just by continuing to do what they have done for 100 years or more. To hedge my bets, I will probably buy some of those soon to hold along with the AAPL stock I already have.


http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg

[mraynrand]

Fire up the Patler signal! The city is in crisis! Commissioner Gordon is at his wit's end!

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/patlersignal.jpg

[Partial]

Who said anything about day trading?

Your 100% return on AAPL is not all that unusual or unique for the period during which it happened. If you have a 100% return, you have owned the stock for around 2 years, at least. During that same time period, you would have had a 200% return already if you had bought PCLN ($500+ now, $160s just 2 years ago). CMI was in the low $40s 2 years ago and hit $120 earlier this year. CAT was in the $30s and $40s in the summer and fall of '09 and is in the high $80s now after having been above $110 for a while this spring and summer. DE went from the low $40s to above $90 and currently is around $80. HOG went from sub $20 to plus $40.

While your initial investment may increase by another 100% if AAPL hits $600, the gain for new money invested (or of the current value of your AAPL holding) will be around 60%. To get there, AAPL has to travel through a price territory that it has never been in. It is in a highly competitive market where one misstep could have a significant impact. I think AAPL is pretty well positioned to get to $600, but I also think there are some old, stodgy companies that might have similar returns from this time forward (if we don't go into another recession), and they can get there just by continuing to do what they have done for 100 years or more. To hedge my bets, I will probably buy some of those soon to hold along with the AAPL stock I already have.

You may have just gotten lucky, Pat, I have no idea. Historical annual yields are what, less than 10%. 100% in 2 years when I should be earning 18-20% if spectacular. Sure, some stocks may do better, others may do worse. If I make a 300% profit in 4 years, which mathematically will likely happen, that's downright unbelievable. Regardless of your stocks may have done, it's foolish to say that AAPL has been anything less than a dream stock.

I don't know what those other companies are, so I don't have much to say about them other than good, I'm glad they're doing well.

AAPL is recession proof right now. It's unbelievably safe. The PEG ratio is fantastic. People are not going to stop buying iPhones and iPads anytime soon. Apple has this market by the balls and the strangle hold will only continue to get stronger while the total size of the market increases. 150M iPhones in one year at 400 profit per phone?? RIDICULOUS!!


Priceless!

Why? Patler has made money, I've made money, so that's excellent. It's not foolish to love a stock that is recession proof, has gone up >100% in two years, and is likely to hit 1000 within a few years, giving me a >500% return. Yes, I know, when the market would have made me ~50% in 5 years, I've been busy making 500%. 10x market pace IS priceless!

[MJZiggy]

You think people are going to buy Apple stock at $1K a share?

[Patler]

You may have just gotten lucky, Pat, I have no idea. Historical annual yields are what, less than 10%. 100% in 2 years when I should be earning 18-20% if spectacular. Sure, some stocks may do better, others may do worse. If I make a 300% profit in 4 years, which mathematically will likely happen, that's downright unbelievable. Regardless of your stocks may have done, it's foolish to say that AAPL has been anything less than a dream stock.

I don't know what those other companies are, so I don't have much to say about them other than good, I'm glad they're doing well.

AAPL is recession proof right now. It's unbelievably safe. The PEG ratio is fantastic. People are not going to stop buying iPhones and iPads anytime soon. Apple has this market by the balls and the strangle hold will only continue to get stronger while the total size of the market increases. 150M iPhones in one year at 400 profit per phone?? RIDICULOUS!!



Why? Patler has made money, I've made money, so that's excellent. It's not foolish to love a stock that is recession proof, has gone up >100% in two years, and is likely to hit 1000 within a few years, giving me a >500% return. Yes, I know, when the market would have made me ~50% in 5 years, I've been busy making 500%. 10x market pace IS priceless!


I hate to keep saying this, but I want to be clear. I really do like APPL, and I own a decent amount of it. But focusing on only one stock can lead to disappointments, too. I would hardly say AAPL is recession proof. A company that sells discretionary items like cell phones, computers and entertainment gizmos is not recession proof. Recession proof industries are the ones that sell things you can't do without, like simple foods.

AAPL is on a heck of a roll, but the better purcahse two years ago was Priceline.com (PCLN). Well under $200 ($160-ish) just 24 months ago, now over $500. I never bought it myself, always talked myself out of it, unfortunately. I did buy GE and hold it for over a year and double my money when I sold it. I bought Caterpillar (CAT) and Cummins (CMI) later in their run-ups and made some money on them.

The 10% market yields you talk about are averages for all stocks, but many lose a huge amount, and others like AAPL, PCLN etc. have great returns. That is what I meant about APPL not being unique. There are always some that will go on a sustained run. The key is to find them; and in my opinion to buy several, because the market is finicky and can obliterate a gain in the blink of an eye for no apparent reason sometime.

You are in a different situation than I am. You are young and can recover from a big hit. I am at a stage of life where I have to temper my risk. I do that by buying multiple stocks, all of which I think can beat the market over the next few quarters or longer.

I'm not slamming AAPL at all, just pointing out that it is neither the only nor the biggest winner the past two years. People have done just as well the past 24 months with many different stocks. That is always the case.

[Patler]

You think people are going to buy Apple stock at $1K a share?

That is a psychological hurdle for a lot of people, but it shouldn't be. You can buy 1 share of a $1,000 stock, 10 shares of a $100 stock, 100 shares of a $10 stock or 1000 shares of a $1 stock. It really doesn't matter.

[retailguy]

Why? Patler has made money, I've made money, so that's excellent. It's not foolish to love a stock that is recession proof, has gone up >100% in two years, and is likely to hit 1000 within a few years, giving me a >500% return. Yes, I know, when the market would have made me ~50% in 5 years, I've been busy making 500%. 10x market pace IS priceless!

What was/is hilarious to me is that you don't understand diversification, or if you understand it, you don't preach or practice it. Investing $60K into AAPL (or ANY single stock) is ABSOLUTELY FOOLISH, unless $60k is not a material amount of money to you. I suspect that is the case with Skinbasket (It is material) and I am CERTAIN it is material to you.

"Playing around" with insignificant amounts of cash in single stocks in the stock market is one thing, something I have ZERO problems with, however, high stakes gambling (single stock investing) with material amounts of money injects so much risk into the equation it is FOOLHARDY, even when you make money.

You have the AAPL rose colored glasses on, so you aren't teachable any longer, but you're going to get your ass kicked in life very hard and I'm going to shake my head, roll my eyes, feel sorry for your spouse and family, and then laugh my fool ass off until I cry. Recession proof? You are fucking NUTS. NOTHING is recession proof. NOTHING. Didn't you learn a GD thing from Enron? Worldcom? Tyco? You are an abject fool if you truly believe AAPL is "recession proof", much less "risk proof".

Skinbasket, I haven't weighed in, because I'm the most boring investor out there. If it were my money, and I had a 5 year time horizon or more, I'd look for the most stable, balanced mutual fund I could find, in an area I understood, and park it. I work too hard to put a lot of risk into losing $60k, so, FWIW, that's what I do, and what I recommend to ALL of my clients. I have yet to recommend another path. YMMV.

[retailguy]

You think people are going to buy Apple stock at $1K a share?


That is a psychological hurdle for a lot of people, but it shouldn't be. You can buy 1 share of a $1,000 stock, 10 shares of a $100 stock, 100 shares of a $10 stock or 1000 shares of a $1 stock. It really doesn't matter.

Berkshire Hathaway closed on Friday at $102,272. per share. It makes AAPL look like the tinkertoy company it is. (I don't own single shares of it either, though I do invest in a couple of mutual funds that hold some of it).

The only single stock that I own are the shares of my employer that I received as part of my compensation.

[Partial]

What was/is hilarious to me is that you don't understand diversification, or if you understand it, you don't preach or practice it. Investing $60K into AAPL (or ANY single stock) is ABSOLUTELY FOOLISH, unless $60k is not a material amount of money to you. I suspect that is the case with Skinbasket (It is material) and I am CERTAIN it is material to you.

IDK, depends on a lot of things. My entire 401k money is in a wide variety of mutual funds. While I made 25% on it two years ago, it made next to nothing last year, while my AAPL blew up. I *DO* believe in diversification, which is why we're about to buy another 20K of GE. You assume many things of which you don't know.



"Playing around" with insignificant amounts of cash in single stocks in the stock market is one thing, something I have ZERO problems with, however, high stakes gambling (single stock investing) with material amounts of money injects so much risk into the equation it is FOOLHARDY, even when you make money.

I don't agree with this. It's risky, yes, but it's a calculated risk. It's not playing blackjack. There is sound math and historical evidence behind it.



You have the AAPL rose colored glasses on, so you aren't teachable any longer, but you're going to get your ass kicked in life very hard and I'm going to shake my head, roll my eyes, feel sorry for your spouse and family, and then laugh my fool ass off until I cry. Recession proof? You are fucking NUTS. NOTHING is recession proof. NOTHING. Didn't you learn a GD thing from Enron? Worldcom? Tyco? You are an abject fool if you truly believe AAPL is "recession proof", much less "risk proof".

Those are cases of corruption, not recession. Do you think companies are suddenly going to stop giving their employees smart phones? Do you think consumers are going to stop buying smart phones? Apple is about as recession proof as it gets, imo. There margins are 40-50%. If they need to temporarily cut the cost of goods to sell them, they'll be able to do so and still be quite profitable.

Obviously there are inherit risks with investing. I'm really big into applying math principals into them. Lots of people look at PE, but I like the much less commonly used PEG because it accounts for growth. PEG ratio is a phenomenal indication for purchasing stocks. Something like 94% of stocks perform according to what the ratio dictates I've read. That's a pretty strong indication, in my opinion.

FWIW, AAPL has the biggest market capitalization of any company in the world. There's nothing tinkertoy about it.

Patler, I completely agree with you that obviously there are stocks that are going to do better and worse. I know you obviously like AAPL, who wouldn't when they own it :), my point is saying that while there may be some better stocks out there, AAPL is pretty outrageously good. Lots of financial analysts that are quoted on appleinsider.com are saying that 600 is the new 12 month price, and that it's only going to keep going up. I've read some say that is it the best stock to buy right now. We both know it's ridiculously under valued. Eventually the market has a way of correcting itself and putting it's PE in line with other very large companies (which will make it very, very valuable). IMO, it's very safe, and it's something that I know very well and follow closely. Part of the reason I'm such a strong advocate for it is because I follow Apple as closely as anyone. It would be foolish for me to invest in some other companies that I don't follow and aren't particularly interested in supporting, because I won't know when the time is right to buy in or get out.

RG hit the nail on the head when he said a few years back to only invest in something you fully understand. For me, that's AAPL and that's why I'm such a strong advocate of it.

[Bretsky]

Your fascination with AAPL is blinding, isn't it? :lol:

The frustrating thing is that the $600/share estimate is not new, but they keep moving back the "expected by" date. To get to $610, AAPL would increase about 60% from its current price of around $385, but would have to increase around 50% from its high. It has a lot of new territory to go through to get to $600. I think there are other stocks that can do just as well, some of which will also kick in a nice dividend that AAPL does not. Stocks that have been unfairly punished over the last couple months.

I will continue to hold my AAPL stock, but doubt that I will be adding to it. I think there are "better buys" out there. Stocks that could return nearly 50% just by recovering to their recent highs of this year, from which they had been expected to gain 10%-20% just a couple months ago. There were no reasons for some of these stocks to have declined as much as they have, other than just the general market sell off.


Hey Patler..............spill some juice for us................give us 5 stocks that may fall into the category to consider

[mraynrand]

Skinbasket, I haven't weighed in, because I'm the most boring investor out there. If it were my money, and I had a 5 year time horizon or more, I'd look for the most stable, balanced mutual fund I could find, in an area I understood, and park it. I work too hard to put a lot of risk into losing $60k, so, FWIW, that's what I do, and what I recommend to ALL of my clients. I have yet to recommend another path. YMMV.

You and I could get together for an investors yawn-fest. Probably the most risky thing I do is the emerging markets mutual funds, but even that is not a major fraction of investments. I like the home investment because they have been incredibly inexpensive lately, and eventually they will come back - plus it's tangible, and the rent more than doubles the taxes, insurance and maintenance.

[Partial]

You and I could get together for an investors yawn-fest. Probably the most risky thing I do is the emerging markets mutual funds, but even that is not a major fraction of investments. I like the home investment because they have been incredibly inexpensive lately, and eventually they will come back - plus it's tangible, and the rent more than doubles the taxes, insurance and maintenance.

Do you worry about people destroying your places? I've considered purchasing and living in a quadplex.

[SkinBasket]

AAPL is recession proof right now. It's unbelievably safe.

That's what they said about beanie babies too.

[SkinBasket]

Skinbasket, I haven't weighed in, because I'm the most boring investor out there. If it were my money, and I had a 5 year time horizon or more, I'd look for the most stable, balanced mutual fund I could find, in an area I understood, and park it. I work too hard to put a lot of risk into losing $60k, so, FWIW, that's what I do, and what I recommend to ALL of my clients. I have yet to recommend another path. YMMV.

I'm looking for something safe, at least until we have a federal government the markets can trust.

You should PM me what it is you do, as I might be looking for someone just like you soon.

[MJZiggy]

Do you worry about people destroying your places? I've considered purchasing and living in a quadplex.

You have to understand people. You have to learn enough about a renter in the initial visit and checks to understand what kind of people you're renting to. You also have to be handy enough to fix shit that breaks in their unit in a timely manner.

[Patler]

Do you think companies are suddenly going to stop giving their employees smart phones?

OF COURSE THEY WILL! My gosh, do you have any idea what goes on at a company struggling to keep its share price up? First, they will simply limit the employees that can get new smartphones. Then they will limit the ones who can even have them. Then they will go through large scale layoffs. Each step limits sales opportunities for all smartphone providers.



Do you think consumers are going to stop buying smart phones?

OF COURSE THEY WILL, if a recession hits and lasts. There is nothing essential about having a smartphone. If the choice is between food, rent and a smartphone, the phone is the first thing to go. Not only will they not buy new ones, they won't even pay for the data plans to support their old ones.


Obviously there are inherit risks with investing. I'm really big into applying math principals into them. Lots of people look at PE, but I like the much less commonly used PEG because it accounts for growth. PEG ratio is a phenomenal indication for purchasing stocks. Something like 94% of stocks perform according to what the ratio dictates I've read. That's a pretty strong indication, in my opinion.

I hope you realize the PEG ratio is based on predicted growth. In that way, it is one of the most unreliable tools, because if the prediction for growth is wrong, the whole thing falls apart. There is nothing certain about predicting the future.


Lots of financial analysts that are quoted on appleinsider.com are saying that 600 is the new 12 month price, and that it's only going to keep going up. I've read some say that is it the best stock to buy right now. We both know it's ridiculously under valued. Eventually the market has a way of correcting itself and putting it's PE in line with other very large companies (which will make it very, very valuable).

There is nothing new about the $600 prediction. Earlier this year, some were predicting it for the end of 2011.



IMO, it's very safe, and it's something that I know very well and follow closely. Part of the reason I'm such a strong advocate for it is because I follow Apple as closely as anyone. It would be foolish for me to invest in some other companies that I don't follow and aren't particularly interested in supporting, because I won't know when the time is right to buy in or get out.

I agree that you should know what you invest in, but it is unwise to ever think anything is certain. You should also look at how often the so-called experts are flat out wrong.

[mraynrand]

Do you worry about people destroying your places? I've considered purchasing and living in a quadplex.


You have to understand people. You have to learn enough about a renter in the initial visit and checks to understand what kind of people you're renting to. You also have to be handy enough to fix shit that breaks in their unit in a timely manner.

Yeah, and sometimes stuff gets wrecked. But usually you can tell pretty quick if someone is the type to really destroy as opposed to just 'be dirty' and mess the place up. Painting, drywall, even some fixtures here and there is not that expensive. I kinda like the picky tenants, because you know they will keep the place nice. A few extra jobs are worth it to keep 'em happy.

[mraynrand]

There is nothing certain about predicting the future.

True that

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4465/foundo.jpg

[Patler]

Hey Patler..............spill some juice for us................give us 5 stocks that may fall into the category to consider

Heck, I haven't even decided to buy any myself, let alone recommend them to someone else. I'm holding a lot of cash right now until we see the direction the economy is headed.

[Scott Campbell]

I remember being lectured about how a home was a sure thing as an investment.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't agree with this. It's risky, yes, but it's a calculated risk. It's not playing blackjack. There is sound math and historical evidence behind it.




I guess you haven't heard about the MIT Blackjack team.

[Scott Campbell]

Heck, I haven't even decided to buy any myself, let alone recommend them to someone else. I'm holding a lot of cash right now until we see the direction the economy is headed.


I've been in the same boat - for a long time.

[MJZiggy]

It's the holding of cash that's saved my sanity lately. I have the liquidity if I need it. Eventually though, I do plan on needing to find a place to park some funds, but not yet.

[Partial]

You think people are going to buy Apple stock at $1K a share?

Eventually, yes. Why wouldn't they? It's only a matter of time before it gets there. There price to earnings is way out of whack (in a good way) with a company of that size. When this corrects itself, the stock will be worth a lot of money. The scary thing is, with the forecasts analysts have laid out, I foresee the stock continuing to go up rapidly without much change in PE. Apple is expected to sell 150M iPhones and iPads in 2013. Assuming they sell the average iPhone for 600 (They sell for 650 to carriers today) and the average iPad for 600 (the base model is 500, but lots of people buy the upgraded models), that is 180 billion in revenue in a year. Assuming 25% margin on their business (which is in line with todays margin), they'll make 45 billion dollars on the iPhone/iPad business alone that year. That's not counting the app stores, iTunes stores, macs, accessories, etc, which are also huge, very profitable businesses.

[MJZiggy]

There's also the possibility that when the price to earnings corrects, the stock price will crash because everyone who wants one will have one. This is not an economy in which people can toss a perfectly good iPhone to buy another iPhone. Maybe they will, but maybe not. What if everyone who wants an iPad has already bought one and the projections are wrong? Then what?

[SkinBasket]

And when the next beanie baby comes along, no one will even remember what an i-phone was.

[Upnorth]

So depending on your risk tolerance, I would invest in Canadian Banks and Real estate income trusts and Japanese construction companies. Hedge with some gold in cdn or aus $'s and looking into some calls on canola.
Or the strip club, your call

[Partial]

There's also the possibility that when the price to earnings corrects, the stock price will crash because everyone who wants one will have one. This is not an economy in which people can toss a perfectly good iPhone to buy another iPhone. Maybe they will, but maybe not. What if everyone who wants an iPad has already bought one and the projections are wrong? Then what?

The economics to upgrade your phone make sense. Education is going to be eventually be the iPads market and education will always upgrade often. iPhone economics are far more conducive to upgrades to a consumer than the iPad, I agree. American cell companies contract structure basically will guarantee the vast majority upgrade. It is a huge waste of money to NOT upgrade.

Analysts could be wrong, but their livelihood depends on them being right.

[MJZiggy]

P, do you have any understanding of how many schools in this country only have computers at all because Bill Gates and others donated them? You think inner city school districts have money to spend on iPads when they can't afford chalk and people are always trying to cut school budgets because of dwindling tax revenues? You are privileged. You just don't understand how privileged you are. Look around.

[SkinBasket]

Analysts could be wrong, but their livelihood depends on them being right.

http://www.thoughtsaloud.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/jumpers.jpg

[GrnBay007]

LOL ^

[Patler]

The economics to upgrade your phone make sense. Education is going to be eventually be the iPads market and education will always upgrade often. iPhone economics are far more conducive to upgrades to a consumer than the iPad, I agree. American cell companies contract structure basically will guarantee the vast majority upgrade. It is a huge waste of money to NOT upgrade.

Analysts could be wrong, but their livelihood depends on them being right.

I'm not sure what "economics" you are referring to, but I sure don't see it the same way that you do about upgrades.

The analysts "could be wrong"? Do you realize that good analysts and investing systems ARE wrong about 45% of the time? They make their money on the 10% differential, being right 55% of the time and wrong 45% of the time. That, and limiting the losses when they are wrong.

[Partial]

I'm not sure what "economics" you are referring to, but I sure don't see it the same way that you do about upgrades.

With cell contracts and subsidies, you're paid 400 dollars over 2 years essentially to sign a contract. You could go the prepaid route and see significant monthly savings but then you're paying full price for the handset. Seeing as prepaid is such a small fraction of the market in America, why would someone not upgrade? They're not getting the 400 dollars back into their pocket if they don't.

In summary, it would be pretty dumb to not upgrade. At the very least, take the 650$ phone for 200 bucks and sell it for 500 and pocket the money. It's essentially wasting money and padding the lines of wallet. American carriers don't do reverse subsidization now that TMobile got rid of it.


P, do you have any understanding of how many schools in this country only have computers at all because Bill Gates and others donated them? You think inner city school districts have money to spend on iPads when they can't afford chalk and people are always trying to cut school budgets because of dwindling tax revenues? You are privileged. You just don't understand how privileged you are. Look around.

You're passing judgement. I have no idea if that's true or not about the computers. Don't care. Suburban schools will have iPads. Soon. This is what curriculum will be taught on. The paper book is a thing of the past. There isn't a better device for a toddler than an iPad. What parent would rather have their child corrupting their brain watching cable television when they could be playing fun education oriented games?? Interactive learning is the next big thing.

[Patler]

With cell contracts and subsidies, you're paid 400 dollars over 2 years essentially to sign a contract. You could go the prepaid route and see significant monthly savings but then you're paying full price for the handset. Seeing as prepaid is such a small fraction of the market in America, why would someone not upgrade? They're not getting the 400 dollars back into their pocket if they don't.

In summary, it would be pretty dumb to not upgrade. At the very least, take the 650$ phone for 200 bucks and sell it for 500 and pocket the money. It's essentially wasting money and padding the lines of wallet. American carriers don't do reverse subsidization now that TMobile got rid of it.



You're passing judgement. I have no idea if that's true or not about the computers. Don't care. Suburban schools will have iPads. Soon. This is what curriculum will be taught on. The paper book is a thing of the past. There isn't a better device for a toddler than an iPad. What parent would rather have their child corrupting their brain watching cable television when they could be playing fun education oriented games?? Interactive learning is the next big thing.

In bad times, "economics" will dictate keeping an old (dumb) phone instead of upgrading to the higher cost of a plan for a smart phone (even if the phone itself is free), or dumping a smart phone and its higher plan costs in favor of simple, basic cell phone service. For the vast majority of people, a smart phone is a luxury, anyway you look at it.

Years ago Apple became popular among kids because they gave computers to the schools. It was a good marketing approach for them. When parents starting buying, they bought what the kids were familiar with. Then, pc's became popular in business settings, and parents started buying what they were familiar with. Apple still has a very active program to donate computers to schools, both in the US and Canada.

[Little Whiskey]

Suburban schools will have iPads. Soon.

thats right. screw the Urban schools! NO IPAD FOR YOU!!!

[MJZiggy]

In bad times, "economics" will dictate keeping an old (dumb) phone instead of upgrading to the higher cost of a plan for a smart phone (even if the phone itself is free), or dumping a smart phone and its higher plan costs in favor of simple, basic cell phone service. For the vast majority of people, a smart phone is a luxury, anyway you look at it.

Years ago Apple became popular among kids because they gave computers to the schools. It was a good marketing approach for them. When parents starting buying, they bought what the kids were familiar with. Then, pc's became popular in business settings, and parents started buying what they were familiar with. Apple still has a very active program to donate computers to schools, both in the US and Canada.

It's not even upgrading to a smartphone. I just got a phone that I like. Does anyone think that in two years, I'm going to pay $200 to ditch a perfectly good phone to get another one that does the same thing? That is not a smart economic choice for me. My boss still uses his old Droid because it's in good shape. He likely will not upgrade until the next time he wants to leave the country (provided I don't just loan him an old, global-ready non-smart phone). If my old Droid didn't blow up in the earthquake, there's no way I'd have a new phone right now. P is looking at the world from the perspective of the privileged assuming that everyone will "have" to have it. Problem is 14 million people are out of work and buying power of most Americans is decreasing. You're right. An iPhone is a luxury as are most Mac products as they cost significantly more than comparable PC products. Luxuries are the first things to go.

Apple has the program to donate to schools, but so does Microsoft. And from this morning's paper: Analysts expect Amazon will be releasing a tablet, possibly by year end, as a lower-cost alternative to the iPad. And an interesting story on Samsung that it's probably best to pay attention to before counting your dollar signs. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/samsung-quietly-continues-to-conquer-the-world/2011/09/11/gIQAVxEWJK_story.html

[Patler]

Years ago Apple became popular among kids because they gave computers to the schools. It was a good marketing approach for them. When parents starting buying, they bought what the kids were familiar with. Then, pc's became popular in business settings, and parents started buying what they were familiar with. Apple still has a very active program to donate computers to schools, both in the US and Canada.


Apple has the program to donate to schools, but so does Microsoft. And from this morning's paper: Analysts expect Amazon will be releasing a tablet, possibly by year end, as a lower-cost alternative to the iPad. And an interesting story on Samsung that it's probably best to pay attention to before counting your dollar signs. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/samsung-quietly-continues-to-conquer-the-world/2011/09/11/gIQAVxEWJK_story.html

Ya, I didn't mean to exclude Microsoft, if that's what it sounded like. They all realize now that the gifts to schools can be their most effective advertizing. The goodwill and PR generated are nice, but secondary to getting their products in the hands of people who influence buying decisions and will eventually become buyers themselves.

That was one of the first things that start-up APPL did, give computers to schools. It probably prevented them from being squashed like a bug by their established, well-funded competition.

[Partial]

It's not even upgrading to a smartphone. I just got a phone that I like. Does anyone think that in two years, I'm going to pay $200 to ditch a perfectly good phone to get another one that does the same thing? That is not a smart economic choice for me.

Yes it is. Unless Verizon knocks 400 off the cost of your contract for the following two years. It is a bad decision. You're paying a price that factors in a subsidy that you're not using. That is flushing 400 dollars down the toilet, essentially.

If you're happy with the phone you have, the smart move economically is to buy and sell the new phone. Buy the phone the 650 dollar phone for 200, sell on craigslist for 500, keep the 300. Otherwise, you're flushing money down the toilet by paying a monthly rate that factors this in without pocketing the money.


My boss still uses his old Droid because it's in good shape. He likely will not upgrade until the next time he wants to leave the country (provided I don't just loan him an old, global-ready non-smart phone). If my old Droid didn't blow up in the earthquake, there's no way I'd have a new phone right now. P is looking at the world from the perspective of the privileged assuming that everyone will "have" to have it. Problem is 14 million people are out of work and buying power of most Americans is decreasing. You're right. An iPhone is a luxury as are most Mac products as they cost significantly more than comparable PC products. Luxuries are the first things to go.

Mac products are cheaper than comparable products from other merchants. There are countless quality articles about how other vendors cannot match their low prices in tablets, sub-notebooks, etc. In notebooks and desktops, Apple products are competitively priced with similarly spec'd machines. You're misinformed.

Smart phones are a luxury to you, perhaps, but to the average consumer they're looked at as an essential part of life, which is why sales are blowing up. Right or wrong, it is what it is.



Apple has the program to donate to schools, but so does Microsoft. And from this morning's paper: Analysts expect Amazon will be releasing a tablet, possibly by year end, as a lower-cost alternative to the iPad. And an interesting story on Samsung that it's probably best to pay attention to before counting your dollar signs. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/samsung-quietly-continues-to-conquer-the-world/2011/09/11/gIQAVxEWJK_story.html

Microsoft doesn't make hardware. I'm not at all worried about Samsung. There is space for competition. They make okay products because they blatantly rip off Apple software. They have to be able to sell their products in America to make money in America. Amazon will be the chief competitor long term to Apple due to the infrastructure they have of delivering content, but at this point they're way behind the game and would take a lot to catch up.

Apple will dominate the tablet space. There is no doubt about it. Amazon can sell non-useable tablets for 300 a pop and try to make the money in content, but schools are not their market.

[Patler]

Smart phones are a luxury to you, perhaps, but to the average consumer they're looked at as an essential part of life, which is why sales are blowing up. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

An essential part of life? For someone without a job, or with reduced income? For someone who has to take a lower paying job while putting food on the table for a family?

To be honest, I can't think of anyone for whom a smartphone really is essential.

[3irty1]

Don't less than half of cell phone users have smartphones? How are they essential to the average consumer? This Apple lovefest is predictably disconnected with the realities of the company, the economy, and the fundamentals of the stock market.

[Partial]

Don't less than half of cell phone users have smartphones? How are they essential to the average consumer? This Apple lovefest is predictably disconnected with the realities of the company, the economy, and the fundamentals of the stock market.

I believe they finally passed 50%. It's GROWING. Read quotes from CEOs like Motorola Mobility, Google, Apple, etc. This is a post PC era. Within 5 years people won't have notebooks at work, they'll have smart phones with a dock for a keyboard and external display. This is happening now. Who's leading the charge?? Apple.

Realities of the company? What does this even mean?

The economy? Apple has blown up as much as anyone in a down economy. People need computers, and in the post-PC era, people "need" smart phones. This isn't going to change. It's naive to expect the explosive growth of smart phones to stop or even slow. Simply ridiculous, in my opinion. This train isn't stopping anytime soon.

Fundamentals of the stock market?? What does this even mean? I can only assume that you don't expect AAPL to continue to blow up. I would bet my bottom dollars Apple hits 1000 soon. It's price is ridiculously out of sync with what it should be for a company of it's size, profitability, growth, revenue, etc. It is crazy under-valued.

You're only going to be able to get a smart phone soon. Perhaps the smart phones of today will be the dumb phones of tomorrow. I don't see how using an iPhone is any more challenging than using a dumb phone. I can absolutely see how using an Android phone is like using linux on a computer aka a horrible experience for the user.

[SkinBasket]

There isn't a better device for a toddler than an iPad.

Oh lord.

[SkinBasket]

An essential part of life? For someone without a job, or with reduced income? For someone who has to take a lower paying job while putting food on the table for a family?

To be honest, I can't think of anyone for whom a smartphone really is essential.

Haven't you seen the masses of dead poor people in the street? Sad, really. They had plenty of food, free health care, shelter... hell even free cable TV converter boxes. But alas, they had no smartphones.

[Freak Out]

:)

FUCK YEA!

[mraynrand]

I think I am going to kill myself for buying a smart phone. Just because I feel like a total asshole for getting duped into paying outrageous surcharges and federal taxes.

[MJZiggy]

Don't less than half of cell phone users have smartphones? How are they essential to the average consumer? This Apple lovefest is predictably disconnected with the realities of the company, the economy, and the fundamentals of the stock market.

P is forgetting that I AM the average consumer. And I just bought an Android...I will never buy an iPad and will use my laptop (non-Mac) until the day it dies. Oh, and P? About your price articles? There's this thing. It's called the store. If you go in one and look, you'll find out that I didn't buy an Apple because that number on the thing called the price tag was way bigger than the one below my current laptop. Like by a lot. I am average. I don't have money to toss away on more expensive products. And, quite frankly, I trust my source of pricing information more than yours.

An iPad for a toddler? Ya wanna know what the best devices are for toddlers? A book read in while cuddled up in Mama's lap and a set of building blocks. And maybe a baby gate or some cabinet locks or something. Jesus.

[SkinBasket]

A book read in while cuddled up in Mama's lap and a set of building blocks.

Excuse me?

[MJZiggy]

Excuse me?

My apologies. Edit to: "loving caregiver's"

[Partial]

P is forgetting that I AM the average consumer. And I just bought an Android...I will never buy an iPad and will use my laptop (non-Mac) until the day it dies. Oh, and P? About your price articles? There's this thing. It's called the store. If you go in one and look, you'll find out that I didn't buy an Apple because that number on the thing called the price tag was way bigger than the one below my current laptop. Like by a lot. I am average. I don't have money to toss away on more expensive products. And, quite frankly, I trust my source of pricing information more than yours.

An iPad for a toddler? Ya wanna know what the best devices are for toddlers? A book read in while cuddled up in Mama's lap and a set of building blocks. And maybe a baby gate or some cabinet locks or something. Jesus.

Ziggy, why do you try to argue about F'in everything. You have no idea what you are talking about. Tits or wheels, I guess.

You are an average consumer. Sure. That doesn't mean you're every consumer. You're one of almost seven billion consumers. This is evidence by millions of people buying iPads and millions more buying iPhones. At one point, the iPad was the fastest adopted consumer electronics product ever. EVER.

You're factually incorrect about the notion of Apple products being more expensive. Look at any computer that pays a lick of attention to build quality, having quality graphics, latest processors, etc, and you'll find that Apple computers are priced modestly. Furthermore, iPad and iPhone are both extremely competitively priced. Note that the Samsung Epic is 250 dollars on contract when it came out, where as the iPhone 4, a better, faster phone, was 200. Also note that the Motorola XOOM was originally priced more than the iPad. Pretty much every tablet company has had to cut their margins to near nothing to match the iPad. This is why HP got out of this industry. So, please explain to me again how these things were overpriced.

See some links putting the moronic price claims you're making to bed.

http://macdailynews.com/2011/07/29/pc-makers-struggle-to-match-macbook-air-pricing-with-ultrabooks/
http://www.isuppli.com/teardowns/news/pages/comparativetablet-teardowns-reveal-ipad-design-advantages.aspx
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/22/motorola-xoom-launching-february-17th-at-best-buy/
http://www.hardwarezone.com/tech-news-hp-touchpad-wi-fi-16gb-launch-price-revised-s599
http://hothardware.com/News/Samsungs-Galaxy-S-Comes-To-Sprint-As-Epic-4G-250-On-Contract/
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985.html

"The biggest complaints about Apple are its lock down of Mac OS X to Apple hardware, and its prices. We put the price myth about its systems to rest, but Apple needs to take a long hard look at its upgrade options for customers — upgrades that are priced outside the realm of common sense."

So, Tom's hardware, a nonpartisan third party who is far more informed than you, says the only thing that Apple gouges people on is BTO upgrades. Most people either A) do these themselves, or B) pay a lot. I don't have a problem with this because it interferes with Apple's streamlined supply chain. Having said that, as an extremely demanding user, I have never once had to use a BTO option for a Mac or a PC that I've purchased from the vendor of the computer.

In the latest Tom's hardware post, about halfway down the page, there is an excellent cost comparison between Dell and Apple. When you don't get the POS Dell's, the Dell's are actually more expensive then the Macs, despite being slower, less feature rich machines that are 2x as thick and weigh 2x as much. What say you about this, Ziggy? There is also a comparison of Voodoo PC, a hardware company that HP bought and pretty much ruined.

It's not fair to compare a 10 lbs, 3" thick plastic inspiron with a celeron processor, loads of bloatware, crappy keyboards/trackpads/power cords/no resale value/etc to a 2 lbs, .5" anodized aluminum MBA with a bleeding edge process, no bloat ware, backlit keyboards, glass trackpads, magnetic power cords, high resale value, etc. It's comparing a 1995 Chevy Cavalier to a 2011 Ferrari. Stop. Doing. It.

Just because it's more expensive than your current computer, doesn't mean it's more expensive than similarly spec'd systems. The last american companies in the computer hardware industry are going to be Apple and Dell within the next year. There isn't money to be made on consumers like you who like buying POS systems, that's why HP is getting out of that game. Consumers who want something to last, take college students and engineers, buy Apple. Apple is by far and away the most popular consumer electronics company with college students.

I'm done debating with you. You're too uninformed for it to be worth it. You're absolutely naive if you don't think the iPad is the learning device of the future. Interactive content, baby!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/education/05tablets.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.fastcompany.com/1733662/how-the-ipad-2-will-revolutionize-classroom-education
http://blog.stratepedia.org/2010/01/29/5-ways-the-ipad-and-education-could-go-together/
http://www.parentdish.com/2010/04/20/the-ipad-and-education-its-not-the-size-of-the-screen-its-w/
http://www.pbs.org/teacherline/blog/2010/01/how-will-the-ipad-change-education/
http://thejournal.com/articles/2010/01/27/measuring-the-ipads-potential-for-education.aspx

[MJZiggy]

It was more expensive than almost all of them. Try closing the blog and look in a STORE. You know where you BUY stuff. For, like PRICES. Preferably, make it a store that sells both and compare. I did that. I walked into the STORE and I looked at the PRICES. Trust me, if the Apples were cheaper, they might have had a chance. I consider the STORE to be a really good source of information on PRICES. As a matter of fact, I think stores are the best pricing sources available. I don't compare computers by weight. I compare them by what they do. Apple is way expensive for what it can do. My laptop does everything that the Apple could have for several hundred dollars less. SEVERAL HUNDRED. On the PRICE TAG in the STORE. That's all the information I need, thanks.

Remember, at one point IBM ruled the computing world. They were untouchable...

Oh, and if you'd ever paid ANY attention to educational learning besides what the Apple PR team tells you, you'd realize that the best educational toy bar none is a set of basic Lego blocks. An iPad will never develop fine motor skills in toddlers and that will never change despite what software you load it with. Stand up son and remove that Apple branded dildo from your ass. It's quite unattractive.

[Patler]

...
You're factually incorrect about the notion of Apple products being more expensive.
...

I didn't want to quote the whole post, but what your post really says is that Apples are not more expensive than other really expensive computers. It misses the point. Apples are way more expensive than what most people really need to spend on their computers. They don't need the other really expensive computers either.

Kind of like cars. One really expensive car is not more expensive than other really expensive cars, but they are more expensive than what people really require to satisfy their transportation needs.

[Upnorth]

For myself, I am all about the Blackberry. Its all I will use due to security in the industry I am in. Price is the same as Apple ipad. It has less app's than the ipud, but I don't use apps.
Apple is trendy, but so were bellbottoms. Apple is cyclical, the question is where are they on the cycle?

[Partial]

I didn't want to quote the whole post, but what your post really says is that Apples are not more expensive than other really expensive computers. It misses the point. Apples are way more expensive than what most people really need to spend on their computers. They don't need the other really expensive computers either.

Kind of like cars. One really expensive car is not more expensive than other really expensive cars, but they are more expensive than what people really require to satisfy their transportation needs.

Apple computers aren't more expensive than other high end computers. They're more expensive than a 10 lbs crap dell inspiron, sure. I wouldn't buy a Chevy Cavalier, and I wouldn't buy a Dell Inspiron either. The Mac isn't the BMW that people so often use in the comparison, it's the Honda Civic. It costs a little more, but is by far and away better than the Chevy. It's the little things like the dashboard layout, the engine, the design, the attention to detail, and the overall quality of the machine.

American companies are getting out of the low end PC business because there isn't money to be made. Nobody wins on 2% profit margin.

Apple recognized that with wicked fast flash memory getting cheaper and mobile chips getting faster, we don't need these big computers. By strategically investing years ago, Apple has huge supply chain cost advantages in the ~500 dollar computing device range. They're making an iPad that is faster to the end user (albeit less powerful) that is a much better user experience than the ~500 dollar 10x heavier, 10x slower booting, 10x less focused device. They also found a way to make 40% profit on it where as Dell is making 2-3%. They're making 20x more money on these machines then Dell, and the consumer likes them infinitely more as the user experience is king. That's pretty amazing, isn't it?

I don't necessarily agree that computers are fast enough in general. People want 1080P video today, and soon that'll be 4k video. People want to push 3d graphics to the limit, something that Macs can do that Ziggy's crap 500 dollar laptop won't do (cheap integrated graphics). They have bleeding edge processors for cpu intensive tasks like editing photos, editing video, etc.

Honestly, every single day, I find myself longing for a faster computer. My MBP isn't fast enough for what I do. No laptop is yet. I'm very anxiously awaiting an 8 core system with 8GB ram. I'll pair that with an SSD and finally will be able to fly in my work flow. Then again, I'm a software developer so I'm constantly pushing my system to the limit.

[Partial]

For myself, I am all about the Blackberry. Its all I will use due to security in the industry I am in. Price is the same as Apple ipad. It has less app's than the ipud, but I don't use apps.
Apple is trendy, but so were bellbottoms. Apple is cyclical, the question is where are they on the cycle?

You bought a Playbook? I think it's you and about 19 other people :) Boy oh boy did that thing ever not sell well. I'm actually shocked it hasn't gotten the same treatment as the HP Touchpad yet. I really like the user experience of the UI with QNX. I think it has a lot of potential. Having said that, having it developer in Adobe Air (slow as heck) is a poor decision in my opinion.

[MJZiggy]

I don't necessarily agree that computers are fast enough in general. People want 1080P video today, and soon that'll be 4k video. People want to push 3d graphics to the limit, something that Macs can do that Ziggy's crap 500 dollar laptop won't do (cheap integrated graphics). They have bleeding edge processors for cpu intensive tasks like editing photos, editing video, etc.

Honestly, every single day, I find myself longing for a faster computer. My MBP isn't fast enough for what I do. No laptop is yet. I'm very anxiously awaiting an 8 core system with 8GB ram. I'll pair that with an SSD and finally will be able to fly in my work flow. Then again, I'm a software developer so I'm constantly pushing my system to the limit.

Again you fail to understand the perspective of others when it doesn't match your own. First, you don't know what kind of computer I own or how much it's worth. That said, it doesn't matter when you look at the predictions of Apple's future performance. Upnorth is right. Apple is a trend. How many other trends have there been? Palm. Any others?

[Partial]

"RBC Capital Markets sees Apple earning $110 billion in revenue in fiscal 2011, growing to $140 billion in revenue the following year, and $167 billion by fiscal 2013. It has a $500 price target for AAPL stock."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/13/unprecedented_demand_for_apples_iphone_5_exceeds_i phone_4_hype.html

167 billion at 25-30% operating margin is just incredible. The race to $1000 continues!

[3irty1]

I believe they finally passed 50%. It's GROWING. Read quotes from CEOs like Motorola Mobility, Google, Apple, etc. This is a post PC era. Within 5 years people won't have notebooks at work, they'll have smart phones with a dock for a keyboard and external display. This is happening now. Who's leading the charge?? Apple.

Well I googled for it and the number I saw was 40%. I'm sure it is growing but by no stretch of even your imagination could a smartphone be considered "essential to the average consumer" nor should their manufacturers be labeled as "recession proof." As for all your futurist stuff, we'll see but the prediction that iphones will replace the windows PC's and laptops currently used in business within 5 years reeks of typical fanboy none sense.


Realities of the company? What does this even mean?

Apple ever being undervalued is about as likely as ever getting good superbowl odds on the Dallas Cowboys--the fan bases of each make it impossible. All financial institutions that I know of are based on the idea that humans are always logical with their money. Humans of course are actually human with their money and the stock market is a way to capitalize on such. Apple has such an unparalleled following of loyal fans that the stock will always be extra risky just because of that. If its not a bubble already it is virtually guaranteed to become one eventually. You're citing stock information that you got off of appleinsider.com for beltsakes... you understand the conflict of interest there right?


The economy? Apple has blown up as much as anyone in a down economy. People need computers, and in the post-PC era, people "need" smart phones. This isn't going to change. It's naive to expect the explosive growth of smart phones to stop or even slow. Simply ridiculous, in my opinion. This train isn't stopping anytime soon.

I'd buy too if I seriously thought that iphones and ipads were going to replace all phones, all educational and buisness computing devices, and all pants. The main problem I have with that is that it's insane. Almost as insane as saying an expensive and luxurious cell phone is essential to most people. I'm sure in the Dutch Golden age people probably said stuff like this:

"The economy? Tulips have blown up as much as anything in a down economy. People need tulips, and in the post-war era, people "need" multi-colored tulips. This isn't going to change. It's naive to expect the explosive growth of tulips to stop or even slow. Simply ridiculous, in my opinion. This boat isn't stopping anytime soon."


Fundamentals of the stock market?? What does this even mean? I can only assume that you don't expect AAPL to continue to blow up. I would bet my bottom dollars Apple hits 1000 soon. It's price is ridiculously out of sync with what it should be for a company of it's size, profitability, growth, revenue, etc. It is crazy under-valued.

To make a killing the likes of which you are predicting in the market a company has to do better than the vast majority thinks it will. I do expect apple to continue to blow up, then I expect it to pop. Go ahead and bet your bottom dollar on it and ride it to prosperity, just watch it closely and get out before appleinsider.com tells you to.


You're only going to be able to get a smart phone soon. Perhaps the smart phones of today will be the dumb phones of tomorrow. I don't see how using an iPhone is any more challenging than using a dumb phone. I can absolutely see how using an Android phone is like using linux on a computer aka a horrible experience for the user.

Not sure what you mean by soon but as long as there are people who will only pay between $15 and $40 per month for a phone there will be dumb phones. Right now that number is over half of the population. I've never used an android phone but you know that linux is my jam so that last sentence is probably lost on me. Linux is a pretty big umbrella to label all of it as a "horrible experience on a computer." My girlfriend and 3.5 year old neighbor girl both use ubuntu 11.04 without complaints.

[Patler]

"RBC Capital Markets sees Apple earning $110 billion in revenue in fiscal 2011, growing to $140 billion in revenue the following year, and $167 billion by fiscal 2013. It has a $500 price target for AAPL stock."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/13/unprecedented_demand_for_apples_iphone_5_exceeds_i phone_4_hype.html

167 billion at 25-30% operating margin is just incredible. The race to $1000 continues!

There is a saying among analysts that, in the long term, the market is never wrong. What they mean is that the market determines the share price, regardless of what analysts think the price should be. So the market is never wrong, but analysts often are wrong.

So far, over the last two years or so, AAPL has climbed steadily, and that is a good thing. Momentum is a good thing. But, AAPL has missed the analysts share price targets continually. In spite of significant "beats" on earning estimates, the stock has moved upward more slowly than analysts have predicted, and that is a bad thing, because analysts' share price estimates are based on their earnings estimates. While AAPL has exceeding the analysts earnings estimates significantly, the share price has not hit the analysts targets.

In other words, the market has been less impressed with AAPL's performance than the analysts have been. That makes AAPL a stock that should be watched closely. If they ever barely beat the consensus earnings estimates, or miss it, the stock could top out. In short, the market may determine the "correct" P/E for AAPL to be far different than analysts think it should be.

The outlandish sales estimates like what you quoted give me concern as an investor. The more aggressive the analysts become in their sales estimates, the more likely it will be that AAPL will miss one. A miss from a company that has routinely beaten estimates by a lot will stop the share price momentum dead in its tracks.

[Partial]

Well I googled for it and the number I saw was 40%. I'm sure it is growing but by no stretch of even your imagination could a smartphone be considered "essential to the average consumer" nor should their manufacturers be labeled as "recession proof." As for all your futurist stuff, we'll see but the prediction that iphones will replace the windows PC's and laptops currently used in business within 5 years reeks of typical fanboy none sense.

I have no idea if it will be an iPhone. It probably won't be. 10 years is a long way away. One thing is for sure, though: It will be a smart phone in a dock. That one you can write in ink. That's happening.


Apple ever being undervalued is about as likely as ever getting good superbowl odds on the Dallas Cowboys--the fan bases of each make it impossible. All financial institutions that I know of are based on the idea that humans are always logical with their money. Humans of course are actually human with their money and the stock market is a way to capitalize on such. Apple has such an unparalleled following of loyal fans that the stock will always be extra risky just because of that. If its not a bubble already it is virtually guaranteed to become one eventually. You're citing stock information that you got off of appleinsider.com for beltsakes... you understand the conflict of interest there right?

Go to finance.yahoo.com and look at the PE. Look at the PEG. Look at the articles they link to analysts. You'll see 12 month estimates in the 600s. Those are conservative in my opinion. My love of Apple products makes it a smart decision to consider investing. My knowledge of basic math and economics makes it a smart decision to invest. I wouldn't invest in something just because I like their products. I have to see the value in it. Let's say hypothetical I was a staunch Windows supporter... I would still think that AAPL is a great investment because the math behind it makes sense. The PE and PEG are so out of whack and their forecasts are simply awesome. If it weren't for AAPL, I would have a ton of money in GE because it is extremely undervalued right now as well when you factor in their dividends. That is a fantastic investment now.


I'd buy too if I seriously thought that iphones and ipads were going to replace all phones, all educational and buisness computing devices, and all pants. The main problem I have with that is that it's insane. Almost as insane as saying an expensive and luxurious cell phone is essential to most people. I'm sure in the Dutch Golden age people probably said stuff like this:

iPad is going to own education. You wait and see. It's already happening. Smart phones are quickly killing the feature phone. 5 years from now, the low end feature phone will be a smart phone of today.

You're not looking forward. You're looking at today and the past. This technology is evolving FAST. You should follow some of the execs of these companies on Twitter. Rahul Sood @rahulsood is an excellent example. He's an exec from MS that gets it. An excellent follow on general business/technology stuff. He's a change agent who gets it. This is a post PC world. Companies are either going to evolve or die. NOW is the time to act, not 5 years from now when the wheels are too far in motion.



"The economy? Tulips have blown up as much as anything in a down economy. People need tulips, and in the post-war era, people "need" multi-colored tulips. This isn't going to change. It's naive to expect the explosive growth of tulips to stop or even slow. Simply ridiculous, in my opinion. This boat isn't stopping anytime soon."

What?


To make a killing the likes of which you are predicting in the market a company has to do better than the vast majority thinks it will. I do expect apple to continue to blow up, then I expect it to pop. Go ahead and bet your bottom dollar on it and ride it to prosperity, just watch it closely and get out before appleinsider.com tells you to.

Well obviously, everything that goes up comes down. That doesn't mean it's happening today or tomorrow. They have this market by the balls and are so far ahead of the competition they will kick ass for at least 3-4 more years. AAPL is gonna hit 1000. It's a very safe bet for the next few years. Google doesn't understand user experience, so they don't have a chance long term.... Microsoft is Apple's biggest threat in this space because Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 are beautiful and innovative. Google has made the new beige box. Crazy to think that MS gets it before Google, but then again they have visionary execs like Rahul Sood who understand that user experience is king.


Not sure what you mean by soon but as long as there are people who will only pay between $15 and $40 per month for a phone there will be dumb phones. Right now that number is over half of the population. I've never used an android phone but you know that linux is my jam so that last sentence is probably lost on me. Linux is a pretty big umbrella to label all of it as a "horrible experience on a computer." My girlfriend and 3.5 year old neighbor girl both use ubuntu 11.04 without complaints.

Ubuntu is still a disaster for the average consumer. The user experience isn't there. To be fair, I haven't used it since Jaunty Jackalope, so perhaps you know longer have to use apt-get and what not to install stuff.

Steve Jobs was right in his assessment that file systems and computers in general are too hard. Of course, we're tech savvy so we understand it, and are capable of using them just fine. That doesn't mean that they're designed in the right way, that means that they're designed in a way that we are familiar with and can use. The Post-PC world is changing this game. App stores and sandboxed applications are changing this game. iCloud, automatic document synching, etc are changing this game. In OS 10.7, you don't even have to save documents. It's pretty wild, but the OS just handles it for you. When you think about it, why wasn't it like this the entire time?? The game is changing man. The age of user experience is upon us. MS and Apple get it. Windows 8 looks incredible when you run things in the Metro UI skin. Hopefully most applications can run in it.

Data plans are a rip right now, I agree. Wireless broadband internet is going to surpass wired broadband soon, and prices will come down and competition and new technology adoption occurs. LTE is cheaper to provide than 3G, for example. By 2015 mobile internet use will surpass wired. http://www.bgr.com/2011/09/12/u-s-to-use-mobile-internet-more-than-wireline-by-2015-idc-says/

Dumb phones are going to go away. You can be assured of that.

Crazy times we're living in. The world is changing more rapidly then ever. Technology is in a renaissance and it's a great thing. I was reading a blog post about how we've entered a time where technology is fast enough now that what differentiates between the products is user experience. While I don't agree that tech is adequately fast (Hardware constantly needs to be improved, this is something that I love about Apple, there mobile chips smoke the competition - this pushes tech forward), it's pretty crazy to think that we've entered a time where everyone can essentially be on a level playing field in terms of hardware speed and reasonably close on price, and we'll see who succeeds based on who can provide the best experience to the user. Ultimately, I think this is going to be a problem with Android. I don't think people want a Tron UI (honeycomb), and I don't think people should have to use advanced task manager to manage there memory. With WP7 and iOs, the OS provides a clean, fast interface and gets out of the way. It's a beautiful thing.

Patty, I agree about the expectations and the market dictating the price. The market will correct itself, though, and that's when we'll make our big time money. GE and Apple's PE is all out of whack right now. Anybody with a pair of eyes with the names of large, successful companies can see this easily.

[mraynrand]

I have no idea if it will be an iPhone. It probably won't be. 10 years is a long way away. One thing is for sure, though: It will be a smart phone in a dock. That one you can write in ink. That's happening.

The faster that happens the better. However, with my experiences with rate and tax and sur charges, I'm not looking forward to the day that everything is in the cloud and pay-for-service. I think they are going to gouge the hell out of us. And then, much like ATMs, credit cards, and bank fees, they will legislate it so that the ants pay for the locusts.

[Zool]

Wow its like he never left.


Ziggy, why do you try to argue about F'in everything. You have no idea what you are talking about. Tits or wheels, I guess.

That part was fucking amazing to read.

Partial, you have no idea what the average consumer of electronics is apparently.

Ziggy, the Apply computers are priced right along side the comparable Windows(can we fucking stop calling it PC and Mac already? PC is a person computer. Is an Apple impersonal? Fuck.) computer in the laptop market. In the desktop market Apple is still quite high because you can build your own monster Windows/Linux PC for way less with the identical hardware.

The reason there are lower cost Windows laptops is the hardware inside. Both sides build about the same cost into the laptop for the OS. The rest is hardware and R&D.

[Partial]

The faster that happens the better. However, with my experiences with rate and tax and sur charges, I'm not looking forward to the day that everything is in the cloud and pay-for-service. I think they are going to gouge the hell out of us. And then, much like ATMs, credit cards, and bank fees, they will legislate it so that the ants pay for the locusts.

I worry about that too. Data plans today are absolutely ridiculous. This is why I don't own an iPhone. Don't want to pay big bucks for the wireless when I'm surrounded by wifi all day. I don't understand how these carriers aren't hauling in ridiculous profits.

Having said that, I have to imagine that someone will disrupt this market. In the next few years, someone will introduce shared data across multiple lines that will bring the price down. After that, companies will be able to buy large data blocks. As LTE and the future gens of wireless progress, the cost to provide the data will become cheaper and cheaper. Hopefully that helps.

[3irty1]

You're really in love with PEG ratio. I'll tell you why I'm not impressed. Predictions for Apple's growth like any company's growth are affected by investor hype. With Apple and its cult-like investors the hype is insane enough to make these growth predictions wronger than usual. We're also talking about an established company not some midget, you'd have to believe that Apple is going to take over the world to think it still has obscene growth potential.

Tulip mania is the classic example of an economic bubble. Where excessive positive feedback from which optimistic investors can buy with the intention to sell to even more optimistic investors. When you run out of super optimistic investors, the music stops and lots of people are left with an investment that had become unhinged from its intrinsic value. In the 1600's in Holland this happened with tulip bulbs which became somehow valued at many times more than the yearly salary of a working class citizen. Apple's investors are more prone to this because to way too many of them AAPL isn't just another stock. They are fans like you. Pack that kind of optimism into a market's participants and you've got the recipe for a bubble. Even if the shares are only slightly overvalued now, its likely that they eventually will be regardless of the business's actual performance. That's the thing about bubbles is that they don't reveal themselves until they pop--in the meantime people think that 5 years of salary for a tulip bulb is a smoking deal. The dangers of mixing money and emotion is something to think about at least. This is why I never bet on the Packers, its more than an investment to me because I'm always wearing Green and Gold glasses.

I'm not so sure the price will ever come down on any o f it. Since I've had a cellular phone, the price has only gone up. If there was a legit interest in providing the most kickass phones for a lower monthly rate, wouldn't I be able to get a feature phone with GPS/wifi connectivity and the works? I mean that'd be 75% as useful as a phone with a data plan but 50% cheaper. Hope you're right about them going away because right now feature phones have just enough features to be the worst of both worlds. Touch screens are only as good as the software behind them and mine is the worst.

Well even back in the Jaunty days, apt-get could be handled by the synaptic package manager but these days its being slowly changed into "Ubuntu software center" which is essentially a knockoff of the apple app store filled with open source binaries and even some commercial ones. They have a completely new UI packaged with 11.04 instead of classic gnome. Dunno if you'd like it or not but Its certainly evolving much much faster than any other major OS. If it hasn't caught up yet then it will soon and the consumer's choice will boil down to "pay" or "free." The cloud trends that have us doing everything through a browser anyways benefit no OS more than Ubuntu.

[Deputy Nutz]

A home OR TWO for $60K??? Are you kidding??? You can barely sneeze at one mortgage for that.

?????

Yes, actually you can. Not nice homes that you want to raise your family in, but homes you could fix up and sell or rent.

[Partial]

You're really in love with PEG ratio.

94% of stocks follow it historically I've read. Rightfully so, it's an incredible indicator.


I'll tell you why I'm not impressed. Predictions for Apple's growth like any company's growth are affected by investor hype. With Apple and its cult-like investors the hype is insane enough to make these growth predictions wronger than usual. We're also talking about an established company not some midget, you'd have to believe that Apple is going to take over the world to think it still has obscene growth potential.

The majority of AAPL is not held by individuals. Investment houses are not fanboys. They're investing to make money. People take their allegiances out of the equation when investing anyway. You're misinformed about this.

Look at what the analysts are predicting. They had 100% growth in the past year for the most part. They'll have huge growth next year. And more the next. This isn't just one analyst. This is pretty much every analyst. Go on yahoo finance. I think they've reported that 50 out of 50 investment groups call it a Strong Buy. I haven't checked the page in a few days so it may have changed.


Well even back in the Jaunty days, apt-get could be handled by the synaptic package manager but these days its being slowly changed into "Ubuntu software center" which is essentially a knockoff of the apple app store filled with open source binaries and even some commercial ones. They have a completely new UI packaged with 11.04 instead of classic gnome. Dunno if you'd like it or not but Its certainly evolving much much faster than any other major OS. If it hasn't caught up yet then it will soon and the consumer's choice will boil down to "pay" or "free." The cloud trends that have us doing everything through a browser anyways benefit no OS more than Ubuntu.

I've seen the new UI on a netbook and it looks nice.

Check out the Win8 Metro UI preview below. So sexy.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-for-tablets-hands-on-preview/

[3irty1]

The majority of AAPL is not held by individuals. Investment houses are not fanboys. They're investing to make money. People take their allegiances out of the equation when investing anyway. You're misinformed about this.

Look at what the analysts are predicting. They had 100% growth in the past year for the most part. They'll have huge growth next year. And more the next. This isn't just one analyst. This is pretty much every analyst. Go on yahoo finance. I think they've reported that 50 out of 50 investment groups call it a strong buy. I haven't checked the page in a few days so it may have changed.

Of course not after the decade they've had Apple is a part of a bazillion funds I'm sure. It doesn't take a majority of the holders to be individuals to throw wrenches into estimates or spiral away from its intrinsic value. You are living proof as a fanboy who owns stock. I know two more, one with over a million dollars worth. The effect is there in the form of not just personal biases but also media hype. Who do you think those analysts are for? Human behavior and social movements have a monstrous impact on the market, otherwise we could all just follow the numbers and we'd all get rich.

[retailguy]

man, you leave for a couple of days, and well... I'm almost speechless. When I finish laughing, I'll weigh in.

[retailguy]

The faster that happens the better. However, with my experiences with rate and tax and sur charges, I'm not looking forward to the day that everything is in the cloud and pay-for-service. I think they are going to gouge the hell out of us. And then, much like ATMs, credit cards, and bank fees, they will legislate it so that the ants pay for the locusts.


I worry about that too. Data plans today are absolutely ridiculous. This is why I don't own an iPhone. Don't want to pay big bucks for the wireless when I'm surrounded by wifi all day. I don't understand how these carriers aren't hauling in ridiculous profits.

Having said that, I have to imagine that someone will disrupt this market. In the next few years, someone will introduce shared data across multiple lines that will bring the price down. After that, companies will be able to buy large data blocks. As LTE and the future gens of wireless progress, the cost to provide the data will become cheaper and cheaper. Hopefully that helps.


Well, the TV market is a lot more mature than the smartphone/wireless internet market.

Do we have choice there? Are there a bunch of companies out there offering cheap TV service? No? Why not?

One reason is that the barriers to entry are huge. Not very many folks can launch satellites into space. Cable companies are a regulated market. Cities and towns only allow ONE, in rare instances, TWO. Now there are occasional options for a second provider using telephone lines, but largely there isn't choice because of barriers of entry.

Costs are high, and rising.

Why will the smartphone industry be different? Cities and towns already regulate the number of towers and location of them. Barriers to entry are large, and competition is low to the point of 4 major providers. All "sub tier" providers have to use tower space from the big 4. The big 4 controls the leases, and the terms of those leases.

So, you, or me are just gonna waltz into the big 4 and demand a contract so we can "knock off" the subscriber base with cheap internet? Yeah. That's not likely to happen anytime soon. It'll take a technological shift that probably isn't even in the making, especially since clear wireless teamed up with Sprint. That was probably the best hope.

[retailguy]

You're really in love with PEG ratio.


94% of stocks follow it historically I've read. Rightfully so, it's an incredible indicator.



Incredible indicator?:shock:

Well, not from my perpective. It "can" be a good tool, but like anything else it can be abused.

Let's talk about it. My biggest issue with it is that it is a "predictor" of future events and none of those are exceptionally reliable. No one (except Jesus) can predict the future and he ain't into stocks so he doesn't weigh in.

The P/E ratio is a critical component of the calculation of the PEG. The PEG can only begin to be accurate if the P/E is accurate. Plenty of things can make it inaccurate. Some are perfectly honest, some are NOT. Just like the rest of the market (and life too).

So why can the P/E be unreliable? The P/E is determined at a given point by the market value of a company or its shares. Already built into this market price are the future expectations of a companies growth. Future growth affects share price, therefore future growth affects P/E, which affects PEG.

Next, let's look at earnings. Earnings are an accounting figure that can include non cash estimates. Earnings have to be prepared in accordance with GAAP, on the surface you might think they're all identical. But they're not. Companies have much latitude within GAAP to manipulate earnings depending on whether they have an aggressive or conservative approach to their business.

Other companies have massive underfunded pension and healthcare obligations. Guess what? Those are not reflected on their income statements and are therefore left out of the P/E ratio. That could be a major factor in the accuracy of the PEG, couldn't it? Leaving out debt would increase the P/E ratio and make the company look much more attractive than it really is....

Then there are always "one time events". For example, if you own a company that sells one of its subsidiaries for more than it's book value, this would be recorded as an increase in net earnings. This would alter the accuracy and the usability of the P/E ratio, and make PEG useless as a measure of value.

Honestly, I'm just getting started here. I haven't even really talked about a company that wanted to manipulate it's numbers. Guess how Madoff made his scheme attractive? Yep, the P/E ratio. In his case, through all kinds of markets, it stayed the same, or very similar.

I like PEG, it's a good tool. ONE tool. Free cash flow is another, and it's much harder to fake longer term.

Partial, you know enough to be dangerous. If everything falls just right, you'll make money. But if it doesn't, you'll lose your shirt, just like the Enron employees who had their retirement in stock and options.

You ridiculed me earlier for "comparing" corruption with recession. But you missed the bigger picture. To the investor, sometimes corruption can look like recession, or things other than recession. You don't know until it's too late.

I could have substituted the list I gave you to include AIG, Countrywide, GM, Chrysler, Chase, Bank of America. It wouldn't have made any difference the outcome is the SAME.

Thousands upon thousands of investors lost everything in these companies. Don't be stupid enough to be the next one. Blindly following PEG, or any other ratio for that matter, will lead you down a dark alley so fast you won't know what hit you, other than your money is now gone forever.

[retailguy]

more later. Skin I will PM you.

[MJZiggy]

I worry about that too. Data plans today are absolutely ridiculous. This is why I don't own an iPhone. Don't want to pay big bucks for the wireless when I'm surrounded by wifi all day. I don't understand how these carriers aren't hauling in ridiculous profits.

Having said that, I have to imagine that someone will disrupt this market. In the next few years, someone will introduce shared data across multiple lines that will bring the price down. After that, companies will be able to buy large data blocks. As LTE and the future gens of wireless progress, the cost to provide the data will become cheaper and cheaper. Hopefully that helps.

Wait a fucking second here!!!! All this shit you're doling out and you don't even own an iPhone? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAAAA!!!!!!!!! You have to be absolutely shitting me! So then this begs the question: when a ringing sound comes from your pocket, exactly what device is it that you put against your ear?????

[MJZiggy]

?????

Yes, actually you can. Not nice homes that you want to raise your family in, but homes you could fix up and sell or rent.

Not where I live you can't. Studio condos around here go for more than $100K. The ones in the "rebuilding" neighborhoods usually come with a contract requirement that you live in the thing. In DC proper, gentrification is absolutely killing any kind of housing opportunity for those who aren't "gentrified."

[Patler]

Incredible indicator?:shock:

Well, not from my perpective. It "can" be a good tool, but like anything else it can be abused.

Let's talk about it. My biggest issue with it is that it is a "predictor" of future events and none of those are exceptionally reliable. No one (except Jesus) can predict the future and he ain't into stocks so he doesn't weigh in.

The P/E ratio is a critical component of the calculation of the PEG. The PEG can only begin to be accurate if the P/E is accurate. Plenty of things can make it inaccurate. Some are perfectly honest, some are NOT. Just like the rest of the market (and life too).

So why can the P/E be unreliable?

(redacted for brevity)


I agree completely, and the sad part is that as unreliable as P/E is for the reasons you gave, it is the most reliable component of PEG. The "G" part is predicted growth (either over 3 or 5 years) and historically the estimates aren't close.

A study was done by the Penn State business school covering all published estimates from Wall Street analysts over a 20 year period. Their average annual growth from their 5 year estimates was 14.9% growth. Actual growth for those companies was 9.1% That was based on a 20 year comprehensive study. They weren't much more accurate on the shorter term one year estimates. Their average annual growth from 1 year predictions was 13.8% and the actual growth was 9.8%

Their estimates miss by 50%.

PEG is like any other predictive tool, it should be used in conjunction with other factors and tools to look for consistency or inconsistency in the results. It shouldn't be relied on too heavily in and of itself.

[SkinBasket]

more later. Skin I will PM you.

Thanks. If nothing else, I'll probably need some help in how to find reliable help.

[mraynrand]

Not where I live you can't. Studio condos around here go for more than $100K. The ones in the "rebuilding" neighborhoods usually come with a contract requirement that you live in the thing. In DC proper, gentrification is absolutely killing any kind of housing opportunity for those who aren't "gentrified."

That's also because of the boom in gubmint jobs. You should see it out in the manufacturing wasteland.

[Little Whiskey]

That's also because of the boom in gubmint jobs. You should see it out in the manufacturing wasteland.

no shit! for 60k you can own the east side of Michigan.

[Partial]

Wait a fucking second here!!!! All this shit you're doling out and you don't even own an iPhone? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAAAA!!!!!!!!! You have to be absolutely shitting me! So then this begs the question: when a ringing sound comes from your pocket, exactly what device is it that you put against your ear?????

? I don't see the relevance to the discussion. I also don't see what's funny. My opinions on the stock, the products, etc are looking at it from a completely unbiased fair perspective. They're looking at it from an interested 3rd party looking to invest in the best product in an expanding field.


IThousands upon thousands of investors lost everything in these companies. Don't be stupid enough to be the next one. Blindly following PEG, or any other ratio for that matter, will lead you down a dark alley so fast you won't know what hit you, other than your money is now gone forever.

Agreed. I don't do anything blindly. Some of the best advice I've gotten was from you where you said don't invest in something you don't understand. Apple has tons of cash, crazy good PE and PEG. They have the best product on the market by far. PEG is followed by something like 94% of stocks. That's a pretty good indication.


Well, the TV market is a lot more mature than the smartphone/wireless internet market.

Do we have choice there? Are there a bunch of companies out there offering cheap TV service? No? Why not?

Yes we do. Broadcast television. Hulu. Etc. Having said that, I see your point and it does suck.


One reason is that the barriers to entry are huge. Not very many folks can launch satellites into space. Cable companies are a regulated market. Cities and towns only allow ONE, in rare instances, TWO. Now there are occasional options for a second provider using telephone lines, but largely there isn't choice because of barriers of entry.

Costs are high, and rising.

Why will the smartphone industry be different? Cities and towns already regulate the number of towers and location of them. Barriers to entry are large, and competition is low to the point of 4 major providers. All "sub tier" providers have to use tower space from the big 4. The big 4 controls the leases, and the terms of those leases.

So, you, or me are just gonna waltz into the big 4 and demand a contract so we can "knock off" the subscriber base with cheap internet? Yeah. That's not likely to happen anytime soon. It'll take a technological shift that probably isn't even in the making, especially since clear wireless teamed up with Sprint. That was probably the best hope.

You're already seeing change agents, though. Small, regional companies like Cricket are coming in, leasing the same towers the big boys use, and going with the pre-paid model that is used in the vast majority of the rest of the world. They're able to offer much lower prices, though handsets are ridiculously expensive (since they're unsubsidized). It'll be great once everyone uses the sim and unlocks handsets become the norm. Then the carriers will really have to compete on price and that will be a great thing. With Verizon going to LTE and Spring soon making the change, this will get us one step closer to this.

Having said that, phone data isn't like cable TV. There isn't one carrier. There are 7 carriers in my area that people use. Once these guys ditch the ridiculous CDMA/wimax standard and get on a unified standard such as LTE, costs will come down over time as these guys are forced to compete for customers. Open market will solve that problem. Let's hope it remains open.

[mraynrand]

Partial, what cell phone do you have?

[Partial]

On an unrelated note, ARM is gonna continue with explosive growth. They understand the principals that Intel seemingly does not with power consumption. I do like the companies growth potential but the stock looks overvalued right now.

Windows 8 Metro UI looks incredible. I'm in love. This is by far the most user friendly product microsoft has ever come out with. I haven't seen anything this innovative out of Redmond in years!

I'm gonna have to do some research and figure out who's the exec responsible for driving this product and obviously getting the attention of Ballmer and saying "Hey, our product sucks, we need to make a big time radical shift and fix it".

http://www.bgr.com/2011/09/13/sorry-apple-windows-8-ushers-in-the-post-post-pc-era/

I really, really, really hope most apps can run in the shell and not have to go to the Windows UI we all know and loathe. The shell is so beautiful and user friendly! It abstracts all of the nastiness of computing!

[Little Whiskey]

Partial, what cell phone do you have?

the zack morris phone
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/06/504x_zachmorris.jpg

[retailguy]

Wait a fucking second here!!!! All this shit you're doling out and you don't even own an iPhone? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAAAA!!!!!!!!! You have to be absolutely shitting me! So then this begs the question: when a ringing sound comes from your pocket, exactly what device is it that you put against your ear?????


Partial, what cell phone do you have?

Of course he won't answer. It probably isn't "relevant" to the discussion....:taunt:

He's said what he has in the past, it seems to me it was an old palm or similar. Maybe a 1st generation pre or something?

A few months back when I was struggling with a decision to get my wife an iphone, he actually argued with me that it was not "too expensive", now, for him, it's "too expensive". He just couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I didn't want to spend $100+ on one cell phone for my wife, but it's "too expensive" for him to do that.

Priceless.

We wound up with an epic, and that's a decision we don't regret. I'm not paying "full rack" with sprint either.

[Partial]

It is an old Palm Pre. I don't see the relevance to the discussion of a stock, though. There isn't any. It's an attempt to shift the argument and that's it.

RG, I didn't say it wasn't too expensive, I said the prices you quoted were wrong and overstated. Huge difference.

It is too expensive for what I use a phone for. Now that iPhone 5 is going to all carriers, I'll get one on my Spring SERO account.

[mraynrand]

O A few months back when I was struggling with a decision to get my wife an iphone, he actually argued with me that it was not "too expensive", now, for him, it's "too expensive". He just couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I didn't want to spend $100+ on one cell phone for my wife, but it's "too expensive" for him to do that.

My daughter got one and now she's stuck with all her allowance and some of her job money going to pay for it. Like I said before, the taxes and surcharges are absolute gouging. But she likes it

[retailguy]

With cell contracts and subsidies, you're paid 400 dollars over 2 years essentially to sign a contract. You could go the prepaid route and see significant monthly savings but then you're paying full price for the handset. Seeing as prepaid is such a small fraction of the market in America, why would someone not upgrade? They're not getting the 400 dollars back into their pocket if they don't.

If the phone sells for $400 more than I'm "paying" for it, then SOMEONE is paying for it. The only person that "pays" for anything is the CONSUMER. ME. If a business "pays" for it, and doesn't pass on the cost, THEY LOSE MONEY. They aren't losing money.

Your assertion that I'm "losing" money if I don't upgrade misses a very important point. The other options. I have freedom to move if I don't renew my contract. I don't have freedom to move if I sign another contract. I lose flexibility once I sign my name. I take on risk once I sign my name. If I have to get out on early termination, I lose any "pocketed money" of gaming the system.

Right now, on boost I can get a Samsung Prevail (which is 80% of an epic) for $179, or a curve for the same price. All inclusive price? $50. With shrinkage that drops by $5 each six months until I settle at $35 a month.

If I just want a smartphone without all the hassle and add on fees, OR a contract, why would I not consider this?



In summary, it would be pretty dumb to not upgrade. At the very least, take the 650$ phone for 200 bucks and sell it for 500 and pocket the money. It's essentially wasting money and padding the lines of wallet. American carriers don't do reverse subsidization now that TMobile got rid of it.

I don't know of very many phones that sell for $650. Let's use $400 from your previous example. Day 1 - you go to the sprint store and buy an Epic. I go to the Boost store and buy a Prevail. Here's how the math breaks down for the 1st two years.

Sprint - You get a subsidized Epic. Your plan costs are $79.99 plus $10 for the epic data pack add on. $89.99 monthly or $1,079.88 per year plus $200 initially for the phone. Total cost - 1st two years - $2,359.76

Boost - I pay full retail for my Prevail $179.99. My contract is $50 per month for unlimited service. I also sign up for shrinkage. My bill decreases by $5 each 6 months that I make an on time payment. My plan costs $300 for 1st 6 months, and $270 for the second six months for a total of $570 for the first year. The second year my costs are $240 & $210 making the total for the 1st two years $1,199.99 including purchase of the phone.

It's important to note that I have excluded taxes from the analysis because I was too lazy to look it up. Boost fees include taxes, Sprint fees do not.

End of two years, I have spent $1,159.77 less than you have. Now, it's time to test your hypothesis.

Beginning of year three - you get your new Smartphone. It's the new super duper epic on steroids. You're happy with your epic and decide to sell the super duper new one. You get the FULL $650 for your new phone, less your $200 upgrade fee. Prices haven't even risen and you lock in for another 2 year contract. End of the two year period, you have spent the same $2,359.76 less the $650 you realized from the sale of your phone - $1,709.76.

I decide to stay with Boost, but I want a new phone. The Epic you're using is now offered on Boost, and I decide I want a fancy phone like you. My cost is $249. I'm still on shrinkage, and like you, my rates have not increased. 24 months of service at $35 per month is $840 plus my $249 phone leave total outlay - 1,089. (I also sold my prevail on ebay - $50 for parts, but I blew it on wine, women and song so I didn't include it).

At the end of 4 years, you have a 4 year old epic, and I have a 2 year old epic. You have spent $4,069.52, and I have spent $2,288.99, or $1,780.53 less than you have for the same phone service.

I fail to follow your math and your upgrade plan. Sounds like a great deal for Sprint and a crappy deal for me.






You're passing judgement. I have no idea if that's true or not about the computers. Don't care. Suburban schools will have iPads. Soon. This is what curriculum will be taught on. The paper book is a thing of the past. There isn't a better device for a toddler than an iPad. What parent would rather have their child corrupting their brain watching cable television when they could be playing fun education oriented games?? Interactive learning is the next big thing.

I was just at my daughters new high school in suburban America last night. I was in 7 classrooms, all AP classes. NOT ONE Apple machine in the place. I did see a bunch of Dell's running Windows XP.

This is a nationally ranked high school with one of the top academic and football programs in the US. Graduates commonly are accepted to Ivy League schools. I pay $4,500 a year in school related property taxes, and the money is fully spent on the schools. Well run district from what I can see.


An essential part of life? For someone without a job, or with reduced income? For someone who has to take a lower paying job while putting food on the table for a family?

To be honest, I can't think of anyone for whom a smartphone really is essential.

Me neither. Well said.

[retailguy]

It is an old Palm Pre. I don't see the relevance to the discussion of a stock, though. There isn't any. It's an attempt to shift the argument and that's it.

I disagree. The relevance is that you're preaching to all of us that it is "a great deal" and "everyone" has it, but you don't because it's too expensive. It's "don't do as I do, do as I tell you".

You're probably out of contract on that old phone, and haven't "cashed in" either, most likely. Yet we're all "fools" for not upgrading phones.

More preaching from the peanut gallery.



RG, I didn't say it wasn't too expensive, I said the prices you quoted were wrong and overstated. Huge difference.

I told you that an iphone for her would be $105 a month, estimated including taxes. You said it could be cheaper. I said she would use more than 400 minutes a month and therefore it wouldn 't be cheaper.

Please be specific on how I overstated anything? She uses her phone about 700 minutes a month. She uses text messaging as we have two teenagers, so please show me where it would be less than $105 including taxes? I priced it about 10 times on the AT&T website while we were exploring what to do.



It is too expensive for what I use a phone for. Now that iPhone 5 is going to all carriers, I'll get one on my Spring SERO account.

Good for you. See my analysis above. Those SERO plans are a really good deal. Probably knocks the math down to an additional $1,200 over 4 years instead of $1,800.

You're a genius Partial. Underappreciated and misunderstood too.

[Little Whiskey]

http://caitcarver.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/bomb1.jpg?w=262&h=300

[retailguy]

http://caitcarver.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/bomb1.jpg?w=262&h=300

I believe the proper term is:

Boom. Game. Set. Match.

Of course, if I employ that, then I have to call Patler "Patty" and respond to Ziggys posts with: Please. Stop. Doing. It.

Maybe your picture is better. At least I'll seem more intelligent.

In all fairness and for the sake of clarification, on my cheapie boost account, I do not receive the following:

4G speed. I get 3G.
Visual Voicemail service, but that's an additional $10bucks on Sprint.
I do not get roaming, so my phone won't work on my ski trip to Wyoming.

This is somehow not a problem for me.... lol

[mraynrand]

.... I'm still on shrinkage...

Sorry to hear that

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WAi2txkagVM/SpXbFHvszvI/AAAAAAAAGp0/itVIufU6ydU/s400/george_costanza_seinfeld_shrinkage_in_the_pool.jpg

[Partial]

I disagree. The relevance is that you're preaching to all of us that it is "a great deal" and "everyone" has it, but you don't because it's too expensive. It's "don't do as I do, do as I tell you".

You're probably out of contract on that old phone, and haven't "cashed in" either, most likely. Yet we're all "fools" for not upgrading phones.

More preaching from the peanut gallery.

Huh, when did I do this? I'm not telling anyone it's a good deal because it's not. Cell phone data is ridiculously priced. It's overpriced for every phone, not an iPhone, or a Thunderbolt, or a Tralala. That doesn't change the fact a hundred million people are going to buy iPhones and iPads and that it's not a great stock. I'm not debating anything beyond A) the relative cost of the product to other comparable products b) that the product is not overpriced c) the stock and it's current/future value


I told you that an iphone for her would be $105 a month, estimated including taxes. You said it could be cheaper. I said she would use more than 400 minutes a month and therefore it wouldn 't be cheaper.

Please be specific on how I overstated anything? She uses her phone about 700 minutes a month. She uses text messaging as we have two teenagers, so please show me where it would be less than $105 including taxes? I priced it about 10 times on the AT&T website while we were exploring what to do.

Sure, I was stating the base price. I didn't know of her usage. Again, I'm not looking for a fight. Are you?


Good for you. See my analysis above. Those SERO plans are a really good deal. Probably knocks the math down to an additional $1,200 over 4 years instead of $1,800.

You're a genius Partial. Underappreciated and misunderstood too.

Agreed on both accounts.



--- This was a response to your previous post ----
RG, you're presenting a scenario that was not discussed. Sure, if you went to a prepaid carrier that costs less money, bought a cheaper phone at full cost then the subsidized version it's going to be cheaper.

All I'm saying is this:

I'm paying X amount of money per month to get a shiny new HTC Thunderbolt plus we'll say 200 up front for the subsidized phone.

If after two years, I stick with the same plan without upgrading, I'm getting served. If I do buy a new phone, I'm not getting served as much. The subsidy is built into the base rate of X no matter if I use it or not. I could sign up on a contract and keep and NOT get a new phone to begin with and am still paying X. Same thing.

I'm of the belief that the business model for cell phones is very much business friendly and not consumer friendly at all the way we do it in America (with contracts). The sooner pre-paid makes some dents and forces change, the happier I'll be.

It really is too bad that TMobile got rid of there reverse subsidization plan. On their plan, I could get a phone for 200 and take a 2 year contract, or pay the full price for the phone, not have a contract, and have my monthly charge be significantly less. Someone did the comparison with a Nexus one a few years back and there was a couple hundred bucks in savings over the two year period if I remember correctly.

I cannot emphasize enough that I hate cell phone contracts. I haven't had one in 2 years and don't look forward to going back to one. Having said that, I'm paying the same price whether I do or not so I'm going to take the subsidy and keep my 40$ unlimited plan and get the iPhone.

[retailguy]

Huh, when did I do this?

Virtually every other post since you've been back, you've preached that none of us know what we're talking about.




I'm not telling anyone it's a good deal because it's not. Cell phone data is ridiculously priced. It's overpriced for every phone, not an iPhone, or a Thunderbolt, or a Tralala. That doesn't change the fact a hundred million people are going to buy iPhones and iPads and that it's not a great stock. I'm not debating anything beyond A) the relative cost of the product to other comparable products b) that the product is not overpriced c) the stock and it's current/future value

You've preached the "relative cost" the past few days of the IPAD and what a great deal it is. I, and others, vehemently disagree.

You've encourged me to leap into the tablet market, in part because I've wanted to try some available flight software, but in part to "experience" just how bad an android tablet can be.

Years and years ago, I bought a VHS player instead of a BETAMAX, so I escaped the relative value of obsolecense. I thought I'd take the proceeds, saved over 30+ years and sink them into a couple of android tablets.

I bought an Acer Iconia A500 for my wife, and a Viewsonic G Tablet for myself. I want you to know that I bought the G Tablet specifically because all the "online experts" hated it. I plan to root it, and install the latest version of Honeycomb.

Then I'll benchmark it against my daughters IPAD 1's that their grandfather bought them. I'll be happy to provide the specs for you to benchmark your IPAD 2. Look for the thread in a week or so.

BTW - My cost was $580 for both tablets, $80 bucks cheaper than the best priced 16gb IPAD 2 with GPS that I could find. I needed one tablet with a GPS for the flight software, so a basic IPAD to share between us (which was the original plan until you spouted off over and over about how great they were) wasn't an option, so instead we EACH got a tablet of our own, and I've got $80 bucks left to pay the selling fees on ebay when I can't use the 90k apps that I apparently need.




Sure, I was stating the base price. I didn't know of her usage. Again, I'm not looking for a fight. Are you?

So, is this your way of admitting that you were w-w-wrong? Seriously. You spouted off with limited information about how "smart" you were and how "dumb" I was, then when you got the facts, you reiterated that you "didn't believe" my analysis and then disppeared into the ether.

I don't need to look for a fight, I just have to wait 10 minutes for you to post and there it comes again... Just before I responded to this, I read your post "instructing" skinbasket on how to educate his children.

Your pompous ass knows no bounds, does it? As you'll find out, the decisions to educate your children are yours, and yours (almost) alone, and are best left there. You don't seem to get that, but when some 25 year old idiot tells you "how" to educate your children somewhere in the future after you're no longer 25, (without a request for their expertise), you have my permission to knock their fucking idiot head off. At that point, you just might get it, but my hope for that is fading like a shooting star on a clear night.





--- This was a response to your previous post ----
RG, you're presenting a scenario that was not discussed. Sure, if you went to a prepaid carrier that costs less money, bought a cheaper phone at full cost then the subsidized version it's going to be cheaper.

I am beginning to believe that you don't remember what your little fingers type. Let's refresh your memory, shall we?



With cell contracts and subsidies, you're paid 400 dollars over 2 years essentially to sign a contract. You could go the prepaid route and see significant monthly savings but then you're paying full price for the handset. Seeing as prepaid is such a small fraction of the market in America, why would someone not upgrade? They're not getting the 400 dollars back into their pocket if they don't.


You defined my response. You dismissed prepaid on the basis of a small footprint, and used that "small footprint" to justify an upgrade.

I purposely picked one of the most expensive phones that they offer, AND, I purposely upgraded after two years to the SAME PHONE you were using and paid for both upgrades.






All I'm saying is this:

I'm paying X amount of money per month to get a shiny new HTC Thunderbolt plus we'll say 200 up front for the subsidized phone.

If after two years, I stick with the same plan without upgrading, I'm getting served. If I do buy a new phone, I'm not getting served as much. The subsidy is built into the base rate of X no matter if I use it or not. I could sign up on a contract and keep and NOT get a new phone to begin with and am still paying X. Same thing.

Your analysis was incomplete on so many levels, I just focused on the financial end of the deal.

There are many reasons not to upgrade and enter into a new contract that have ZERO to do with money. You want the freedom to leave at any time with no prepayment penalty, is just one of them.

If I make that decision, I'm not getting "hosed". Rather, I'm choosing to pay slightly higher monthly cost for less risk and the freedom to move service in MY time instead of the carriers.



I'm of the belief that the business model for cell phones is very much business friendly and not consumer friendly at all the way we do it in America (with contracts). The sooner pre-paid makes some dents and forces change, the happier I'll be.

I'll throw this one out to the group. In Partials previous posting, in this and other threads, did ANYONE reach this conclusion as to what he was saying? Anyone?



It really is too bad that TMobile got rid of there reverse subsidization plan. On their plan, I could get a phone for 200 and take a 2 year contract, or pay the full price for the phone, not have a contract, and have my monthly charge be significantly less. Someone did the comparison with a Nexus one a few years back and there was a couple hundred bucks in savings over the two year period if I remember correctly.

So, then, WHY did T-mobile get rid of it? Do you think perhaps, THAT THEY MADE LESS MONEY THIS WAY? Hello? McFly? You in there?



I cannot emphasize enough that I hate cell phone contracts. I haven't had one in 2 years and don't look forward to going back to one. Having said that, I'm paying the same price whether I do or not so I'm going to take the subsidy and keep my 40$ unlimited plan and get the iPhone.

So, let me get this straight. You have been "off" contract for two years. This means that the "advice" that you offered ziggy about her boss not upgrading is something that YOU chose not to do? But he was "stupid" for not doing it? HUH? Are you for real?

I don't have a SERO plan, so I haven't read the details. However, typically when you move to a new handset with Sprint, you have to change plans. Since the Epic requires special data, and the IPHONE certainly will, I won't be shocked when that shiny $40 plan will not work with the IPHONE, or the Epic. You need special data plans with those phones and they weren't in existence when that phone plan you have was developed. Good luck.

[Partial]

You're clearly looking for a fight, so I'm done with you too. As usual, you're misinformed and slant arguments to "prove" your points.

Yes, I have been stupid not to take subsides when I'm paying for them. I agree.

iPhone won't require a special data plan. You're misinformed. Epic requires a special data plan because Clear owns the network and Sprint pays 5$/handset to run on it. That's why they charge a fee.

Obviously, about the TMobile thing. Why are you arguing just to argue??

I'm sure most people reached the conclusion that cell phone data plans suck. Whenever we've discussed the topic, I've talked about how ridiculous it is.

Contract: Of course, but the terms of the discussion were surrounding a contract. Not some atypical use case you dreamt up to prove a point. I'm not looking to discuss prepaid. Why are you shifting the discussion of AAPL to something it never has been or was ever intended to be? Focus, man, focus, this is why so many people are not successful.

Good luck with your Google tablet. I'm sure it'll be an experience. I guess some people demand excellence and some accept adequate.

[retailguy]

You're clearly looking for a fight, so I'm done with you too. As usual, you're misinformed and slant arguments to "prove" your points.

Yes, I have been stupid not to take subsides when I'm paying for them. I agree.

iPhone won't require a special data plan. You're misinformed. Epic requires a special data plan because Clear owns the network and Sprint pays 5$/handset to run on it. That's why they charge a fee.

Obviously, about the TMobile thing. Why are you arguing just to argue??

I'm sure most people reached the conclusion that cell phone data plans suck. Whenever we've discussed the topic, I've talked about how ridiculous it is.

Contract: Of course, but the terms of the discussion were surrounding a contract. Not some atypical use case you dreamt up to prove a point. I'm not looking to discuss prepaid. Why are you shifting the discussion of AAPL to something it never has been or was ever intended to be? Focus, man, focus, this is why so many people are not successful.

Good luck with your Google tablet. I'm sure it'll be an experience. I guess some people demand excellence and some accept adequate.


This is about what I expected. It's what you do. Everytime.

I really want to know how I'm misinformed and I slanted the argument. I used your terms. I'd have done it differently, but then again, I wouldn't have made such a stupid point to begin with.

Let us know when you get your IPHONE connected to your existing plan. I have difficulty believing that they are going to subsidize that phone for you on a $40 per month plan. I'm sure there are holes and cracks in Sprints model, but we'll see. Color me skeptical.

Adequate? Really? How? If all the apps I want to use are on android (they are), and the tablet performs 40% faster than an IPAD (it does when rooted), how am I settling for "adequate"? Have you ever used one, or are you just relying on your "internet experts"?

[MJZiggy]

You're clearly looking for a fight, so I'm done with you too. As usual, you're misinformed and slant arguments to "prove" your points.

Yes, I have been stupid not to take subsides when I'm paying for them. I agree.

iPhone won't require a special data plan. You're misinformed. Epic requires a special data plan because Clear owns the network and Sprint pays 5$/handset to run on it. That's why they charge a fee.

Obviously, about the TMobile thing. Why are you arguing just to argue??

I'm sure most people reached the conclusion that cell phone data plans suck. Whenever we've discussed the topic, I've talked about how ridiculous it is.

Contract: Of course, but the terms of the discussion were surrounding a contract. Not some atypical use case you dreamt up to prove a point. I'm not looking to discuss prepaid. Why are you shifting the discussion of AAPL to something it never has been or was ever intended to be? Focus, man, focus, this is why so many people are not successful.

Good luck with your Google tablet. I'm sure it'll be an experience. I guess some people demand excellence and some accept adequate.

Amazing how EVERYONE else on the forum is misinformed. Are these nice folks misinformed too? http://money.msn.com/mutual-fund/article.aspx?post=849d6cad-b605-4276-9144-3fa8c0d97427

Let me summarize. The iPhone trend is wearing off...And so it goes with trends...

And you're absolutely right some people (Like lots--enough to make one wary of inflated stock predictions) accept adequate. And functional.

[Partial]

This is about what I expected. It's what you do. Everytime.

I really want to know how I'm misinformed and I slanted the argument. I used your terms. I'd have done it differently, but then again, I wouldn't have made such a stupid point to begin with.

Let us know when you get your IPHONE connected to your existing plan. I have difficulty believing that they are going to subsidize that phone for you on a $40 per month plan. I'm sure there are holes and cracks in Sprints model, but we'll see. Color me skeptical.

Adequate? Really? How? If all the apps I want to use are on android (they are), and the tablet performs 40% faster than an IPAD (it does when rooted), how am I settling for "adequate"? Have you ever used one, or are you just relying on your "internet experts"?

Bullshit boots on the tablet performing faster than an iPad. That's laughable. It has an Nvidia Tegra 2 chip. No slouch, but certainly not anywhere near the SOC that is the Samsung Equinyox or Apple A5. Show me some benchmarks. What tablet is it? The LG one?

I'm guessing so because you're claiming the chip runs 40% faster, which this article leads me to believe with it's 1.4 ghz overclock that is the case.

ARE YOU F'ING KIDDING ME?????? CLOCKSPEED Is AN EXTREMELY SMALL CHUNK OF THE EQUATION GOOD MAN, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE SYSTEM WILL BE 40% FASTER I HAVE SOME EXCELLENT SWAMP LAND IN FLORIDA I'D LIKE TO SELL YOU. This is simply not the case in overall system performance.

This is a benchmark conducted by Anandtech. Your tablet is not listed, but it has the same guts as every other Tegra 2 based tablet. The Galaxy Tab 10.1 is equivalent for all intents and purposes. Looks like the iPad 2, as expected, mops the floor with it.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4686/samsung-galaxy-s-2-international-review-the-best-redefined/17

http://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/anandtech-gl-benchmark-gpus-in-smartphones.png?w=550&h=437

I especially enjoy how you were talking shit about how people were having to hack their iOs devices to avoid proprietary software, yet here you are hacking your proprietary software to run unlicensed software (Honeycomb isn't open source yet).

Sprint SERO was a 30 dollar plan. They booted smart phones off of that and introduced SERO premium. Any phone is allowed on SERO premium, the only caviot is if your device has a 4G radio, it has to be active and because Clear runs the network, they pay 5$ per handset to clear. Thus, the additional 10$ 4G fee. Since the iPhone 5 won't have WiMax, it won't run on the Clear 4G network so the 4G fee won't be added on. We'll see if they change their tune, but to the knowledge available today according to their own documentation, it won't be.

Yeah Ziggy, that fucking iPhone trend is coming to an end! The last publicly available data we have on sales was, what? 124% more sales year over year for the 3rd quarter. They're only about to sell a record 30M this upcoming quarter. They only had, what, their 10th straight record setting quarter? The iPad went up 183% sales year over year for the quarter! What in heaven is Apple thinking? Growing? Exploding? Making so much money they're going to take the stock private (probably).

What is your information that the "iPhone trend" is ending? Please give me citations. As a stock holder I'm extremely interested and concerned!

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/07/19Apple-Reports-Third-Quarter-Results.html

Here's a quick graph for you.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/08/20110719aaplchart5.png

What is going on at the most recent end of the graph?

GROWTH.

BTW, Apple is going to continue to blow up in China/Asia, and that will fuel tremendous GROWTH. I guess that trend is ending, though, huh?

http://www.bgr.com/2011/09/14/china-telecom-readying-235m-iphone-5-ad-blitz-pre-orders-start-end-of-september/
http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/23/china-mobile-worker-outs-iphone-5-due-in-september/

[MJZiggy]

Click the fucking link. The one that does NOT come from Apple to find my obviously misinformed source.

[mraynrand]

What is going on at the most recent end of the graph?

Those bars look thick and manly

[Patler]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/08/gartnernokia-20110811.jpg


For what its worth.

[retailguy]

Bullshit boots on the tablet performing faster than an iPad. That's laughable. It has an Nvidia Tegra 2 chip. No slouch, but certainly not anywhere near the SOC that is the Samsung Equinyox or Apple A5. Show me some benchmarks. What tablet is it? The LG one?

I'm guessing so because you're claiming the chip runs 40% faster, which this article leads me to believe with it's 1.4 ghz overclock that is the case.

ARE YOU F'ING KIDDING ME?????? CLOCKSPEED Is AN EXTREMELY SMALL CHUNK OF THE EQUATION GOOD MAN, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE SYSTEM WILL BE 40% FASTER I HAVE SOME EXCELLENT SWAMP LAND IN FLORIDA I'D LIKE TO SELL YOU. This is simply not the case in overall system performance.

This is a benchmark conducted by Anandtech. Your tablet is not listed, but it has the same guts as every other Tegra 2 based tablet. The Galaxy Tab 10.1 is equivalent for all intents and purposes. Looks like the iPad 2, as expected, mops the floor with it.

(redacted the apple propaganda bullshit for brevity (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4686/samsung-galaxy-s-2-international-review-the-best-redefined/17))

/ (http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/23/china-mobile-worker-outs-iphone-5-due-in-september/)


Well, still no answer as to how I misinform and slant. Ok.

Regarding honeycomb, it's linux so I expected it to be open source. Thanks for letting me know. If it'll make you happy, I'll only install Gingerbread for now, and I'll wait until the source is released. Funny, though, you accuse me of "slanting" things but you know that honeycomb WILL be released. It has to be released under the terms of the source. It's just a matter of time.

Here's reality. I can buy a $4 HDMI cable and use it with my tablet. I can buy an SD card and use it, or a jump drive and use it. With IOS? It takes a special PROPRIETARY cable to do that. It takes an APPROVED app, and a REQUIREMENT to use Itunes and the app store... Talk about "slanting", guess it takes one to know one.

I told you earlier, give me a week and I'll put up the thread. I was passing along what I read about what I bought. We'll see if it's true, and I will post the benchmark results (as soon as I figure out how to do them). I'm kinda flying blind here, but I figure since you've turned yourself into an absolute financial wizard with no training, then I can teach myself how to hack a tablet, and can hopefully do a better job of that than you do financial analysis....

Partial, you are a riot, an absolute riot. The best part of it, is that you don't even understand what we all find so hilarious.

[retailguy]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/08/gartnernokia-20110811.jpg


For what its worth.

It isn't worth much, unless you got it from the app store, or had to import it to itunes.

[retailguy]

Click the fucking link. The one that does NOT come from Apple to find my obviously misinformed source.

He probably can't click the link. I had to log into my msn live account to read it. He probably doesn't have one because it doesn't work with itunes. Apple probably has a proprietary software download that he could use, or, perhaps the article is using flash, in which case he'll never see it because it is "too outdated" to be bothered with.

[GrnBay007]

Those bars look thick and manly

LOL!

[GrnBay007]

Dang, I thought we were actually going to get some tips on investing in this thread! :)

[superfan]

All the price comparisons in this thread are pointless. It's impossible to quantify the value of Awesomeness.

[wist43]

Smartest investment these days??? Red ink.

At least until the ink becomes more valuable than the currency itself - then I would invest in the stamps used to mark up the currency... oh, and wheelbarrows!!!

Almost to $15 trillion now... shouldn't be too much longer :)

[retailguy]

Dang, I thought we were actually going to get some tips on investing in this thread! :)

You did. On page 1. Invest your life savings into Apple. It's clear, except to those of us Apple haters.

[retailguy]

All the price comparisons in this thread are pointless. It's impossible to quantify the value of Awesomeness.

I never did like rose colored glasses.

[retailguy]

Smartest investment these days??? Red ink.

At least until the ink becomes more valuable than the currency itself - then I would invest in the stamps used to mark up the currency... oh, and wheelbarrows!!!

Almost to $15 trillion now... shouldn't be too much longer :)

I hear that there is a new "print money" app for the IPAD. The problem is that itunes cannot sync with it yet so it doesn't actually print, but it sure looks pretty on the screen! Once they sort the issues, you'll need a proprietary cable to print it, and proprietary paper to print it on.

Just be patient with them, they are all unavailable to work on it as they are canvassing the entire Bay area to find a missing super duper secret phone that one of the employees misplaced. It is VERY important that they find it, and kill the infidel that took it.

[Zool]

All the price comparisons in this thread are pointless. It's impossible to quantify the value of Awesomeness.

Umm Super....according to Kung Fu Panda there is no charge for awesomeness....or attractiveness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh_MclxU_48

[Partial]

You did. On page 1. Invest your life savings into Apple. It's clear, except to those of us Apple haters.

Never said life savings. It's a great investment right now. Few would argue that. Except for evidently you and Ziggy, both of whom are admitted non-investors.

[Scott Campbell]

Dang, I thought we were actually going to get some tips on investing in this thread! :)


We did. I'm shorting APPL.

[Partial]

We did. I'm shorting APPL.

I'm long for AAPL. It's the off-season right now (which is weird because it's back to school). The 30M iPhones they're set to sell before Christmas of the iPhone 5 is going to be sweet!

[Partial]

Stephen Baker, vice president of industry analysis with NPD Group, spoke with AppleInsider this week about the back-to-school PC buying season. He said Apple's year-over-year growth seen this summer was aided by weak comparisons from sales in 2010.

"Apple grew much faster than the Windows notebook market did," he said.

Damn those analysts. Who needs 'em when we have Ziggy, a person without any money or knowledge of investing giving us advice!

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/15/back_to_school_mac_sales_outpace_pcs_even_without_ white_macbook_free_ipod_touch.html

Apple has something that you can't put a price on. They have the cool factor. Everything they do is cool, from the bleeding edge designs (who wants to be a have a boring beige box as a reflection of themselves), to incredible marketing (while every other company is talking about flash, and how much it's better than the iPhone, Apple talks about features because the leader is looking forward, not playing catch-up), to simply incredible stores (is there ever an Apple store that isn't just beautiful and cool? How much better would life be if every retail store was as pleasant of an experience?? My life would be immeasurably better).

Android will never be cool, there is nothing sexy/risky/dangerous/unique about the design, and nothing fast/fluid/interesting about the software. It's not fashionable, it's quite the opposite, as most people think it's the smartphone for nerds. Meanwhile, Apple has created the smartphone for human beings. It's fashionable, extremely user friendly, they've created an incredible infrastructure to support it, etc.


Oooo, just stumbled across this. Time to buy another 20k of stock. China = Apple's next cash cow

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/15/china_mobile_receives_positive_answer_from_apple_o n_4g_lte_iphone.html

[Little Whiskey]

http://chava.mx/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wallpaper19-1024x783.jpg

[mraynrand]

Oooo, just stumbled across this. Time to buy another 20k of stock. China = Apple's next cash cow

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/15/china_mobile_receives_positive_answer_from_apple_o n_4g_lte_iphone.html

We will trade 40 chickens for 1 iPhone. Can you configure it for 678 different accounts?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FfL6DeoF2Ww/SwUz2M1GjmI/AAAAAAAAExQ/s7pE9h6A0q0/s1600/chinese-chicken-factory.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

Apple has something that you can't put a price on. They have the cool factor.


So did leisure suits.

[MJZiggy]

Damn those analysts. Who needs 'em when we have Ziggy, a person without any money or knowledge of investing giving us advice!

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/15/back_to_school_mac_sales_outpace_pcs_even_without_ white_macbook_free_ipod_touch.html

Apple has something that you can't put a price on. They have the cool factor. Everything they do is cool, from the bleeding edge designs (who wants to be a have a boring beige box as a reflection of themselves), to incredible marketing (while every other company is talking about flash, and how much it's better than the iPhone, Apple talks about features because the leader is looking forward, not playing catch-up), to simply incredible stores (is there ever an Apple store that isn't just beautiful and cool? How much better would life be if every retail store was as pleasant of an experience?? My life would be immeasurably better).

Android will never be cool, there is nothing sexy/risky/dangerous/unique about the design, and nothing fast/fluid/interesting about the software. It's not fashionable, it's quite the opposite, as most people think it's the smartphone for nerds. Meanwhile, Apple has created the smartphone for human beings. It's fashionable, extremely user friendly, they've created an incredible infrastructure to support it, etc.


Oooo, just stumbled across this. Time to buy another 20k of stock. China = Apple's next cash cow

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/15/china_mobile_receives_positive_answer_from_apple_o n_4g_lte_iphone.html

Who said I have no money?? Maybe you should try a source that doesn't come from Apple. Just a thought. Obviously you didn't read the article I posted from MSN Money about the "cool factor" wearing off among younger users. Gloria Vanderbilt jeans were cool once too... But it's ok. Don't listen or consider that it's more people than just me trying to drill into that thick skull of yours. Don't exercise caution. And definitely don't run out and get an iPhone. That's too much for you to pay. Yep more stock because it's guaranteed to go up. And I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?

[Scott Campbell]

Gloria Vanderbilt jeans were cool once too...


Maybe for Harlan.

[Partial]

Who said I have no money?? Maybe you should try a source that doesn't come from Apple. Just a thought. Obviously you didn't read the article I posted from MSN Money about the "cool factor" wearing off among younger users. Gloria Vanderbilt jeans were cool once too... But it's ok. Don't listen or consider that it's more people than just me trying to drill into that thick skull of yours. Don't exercise caution. And definitely don't run out and get an iPhone. That's too much for you to pay. Yep more stock because it's guaranteed to go up. And I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?

Well, lets see, you didn't have a job for years and you talk about how you don't know anything about investing.

A site that is dedicated to articles about Apple's stock and analysts opinion/quotes/articles about it is from Apple? Sheesh. Sigh. My goodness.

I did read your article. I vehemently disagree with it. So do sales numbers. Just you watch, Apple is going to suffocate Android in the next few months. I'd bet my bottom dollar on it.

It's not guaranteed to go up. It's a very safe bet that it will. It's a calculated risk.

[Partial]

So did leisure suits.

The difference is Apple changes with time and stays cool. Remember when they first came out with the iMac? Cool. Do you remember when they came out with the titanium sex notebooks? I sure do, because they were cool. Do you remember when they came out with the first unibody notebooks? Yep, we all sure do. What about the new MacBook Air? Yep, everyone is in shock over how thin and gorgeous it is. Do you remember when they came out with the first iPhone? Yep, you sure do. Does anyone remember the first HP or Dell on the market? What about the first Android phone? Can anyone name it without Googling it? I can, but can most people? The answer, which is pure speculation on my part, is No.

Apple is cool, and for the next 3-4 years will remain cool as long as they follow the plan that Steve and Jon Ive have in place. I think they'll still know what cool is as long as Jon is there.

There is a fundamental difference in the way products are designed that makes them great. Apple pushes the limits of technology and has a vision of how software should integrate with ones life and devices. The others are responding after the fact and polling for user feedback rather than having their own vision.

[MJZiggy]

Well, lets see, you didn't have a job for years and you talk about how you don't know anything about investing.

A site that is dedicated to articles about Apple's stock and analysts opinion/quotes/articles about it is from Apple? Sheesh.

I did read your article. I vehemently disagree with it. So do sales numbers. Just you watch, Apple is going to suffocate Android in the next few months. I'd bet my bottom dollar on it.

It's not guaranteed to go up. It's a very safe bet that it will. It's a calculated risk.

How exactly does that equate to not having money???

Sales numbers are indicative of the past. If those indications are correct and they are based on information from Pew Research, then the current sales numbers mean nothing as the future trend among Apple's largest future market is not good. I think you already have bet your bottom dollar on it...

[Little Whiskey]

But it's ok. Don't listen or consider that it's more people than just me trying to drill into that thick skull of yours. Don't exercise caution.

.........and seriously hurting yourself doing squats past 90 degrees.

OOPS, wrong thread. Sorry.

[Scott Campbell]

Do you remember when they came out with the first iPhone? Yep, you sure do.


Really???

I remember what I was doing when the planes hit the twin towers. I can't even remember which year the first iPhone came out.

[SkinBasket]

The difference is Apple changes with time and stays cool. Remember when they first came out with the iMac? Cool. Do you remember when they came out with the titanium sex notebooks? I sure do, because they were cool. Do you remember when they came out with the first unibody notebooks? Yep, we all sure do. What about the new MacBook Air? Yep, everyone is in shock over how thin and gorgeous it is. Do you remember when they came out with the first iPhone? Yep, you sure do.

You need to get out more. I don't even know what most of that stuff is, much less when it came out. What the fuck is a titanium sex notebook? MacBook Air? Seriously? I immediately imagine LeVar Burton dunking on a 5 foot rim over a copy of some PBS sponsored book about some kid's 3 dads.

[Partial]

How exactly does that equate to not having money???

Sales numbers are indicative of the past. If those indications are correct and they are based on information from Pew Research, then the current sales numbers mean nothing as the future trend among Apple's largest future market is not good. I think you already have bet your bottom dollar on it...

Quarterly sales numbers, estimates for the future quarters, and updates from supply chain sources are indicative of the current.

The iPhone will continue to be the best selling smart phone for a few more years at least. You can bet your bottom dollar on that one.

[Little Whiskey]

You can bet your bottom dollar on that one.

I use the FIFO accounting practice when it comes to my money. My bottom dollar is constantly changing.

[Upnorth]

The difference is Apple changes with time and stays cool. Remember when they first came out with the iMac? Cool. Do you remember when they came out with the titanium sex notebooks? I sure do, because they were cool. Do you remember when they came out with the first unibody notebooks? Yep, we all sure do. What about the new MacBook Air? Yep, everyone is in shock over how thin and gorgeous it is. Do you remember when they came out with the first iPhone? Yep, you sure do. Does anyone remember the first HP or Dell on the market? What about the first Android phone? Can anyone name it without Googling it? I can, but can most people? The answer, which is pure speculation on my part, is No.

Apple is cool, and for the next 3-4 years will remain cool as long as they follow the plan that Steve and Jon Ive have in place. I think they'll still know what cool is as long as Jon is there.

There is a fundamental difference in the way products are designed that makes them great. Apple pushes the limits of technology and has a vision of how software should integrate with ones life and devices. The others are responding after the fact and polling for user feedback rather than having their own vision.



I have no idea when any of those came out, I just know people make fun of the hipsters who think there cool.
This goes back to my cyclical comment, where is apple on its cycle? It is looking like it maybe approaching another down swing.


So talking about investing, long on canola is a good bet that lloks to be getting better, owning gold in euro's is still very very safe, not so safe in us$ terms. Other precious metals look to be reching some inflection points so watch out.
Non-renewable energy should be making healthy gains in about 1 - 2 months and hold those gains for the forseeable future. If you are into financials, go with canadian or australian for the safe bet. Does that help GrnBay007.
Also I will qualify this with the good old TMQ wARNING, ALL PREDICTIONS WRONG OR YOU MONEY BACK.

[Partial]

Where is apple on its cycle? It is looking like it maybe approaching another down swing.

Apple's cycles are just beginning. The iPad is still a new product, despite being a huge product. Recall this has only been out, what, 17 months now? It's still a baby. The iPhone is also not going anywhere anytime soon. It's just so far ahead of the competition in user experience.

Analyst Mark Moskowitz with J.P. Morgan
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/16/apple_seen_in_no_rush_to_release_ipad_3_as_competi tors_struggle.html


"In our view, Apple should be in no rush," he said. "The other tablet entrants have stumbled so far, and that trend-line could persist deep into 2012."


But Apple should be in no rush to grow the iPad lineup, in Moskowitz's view, as competitors like Motorola and Research in Motion have disappointed with their own competing offerings. RIM announced on Thursday that it has shipped just 200,000 PlayBooks, far less than the 9.25 million iPads Apple sold in its most recent quarter.

Moskowitz believes the next tablet to stumble will come from Sony, which recently demoed new hardware. The analyst said he was not impressed by what he saw.

"To us, Sony's tablet lacks the refined, sleek feel of the iPad and its bezel-like back is not user-friendly," he wrote in a note to investors. "Lastly, the sony tablet runs on the Android O/S, which has failed to garner as much interest in tablets as it has in smartphones."


"Amazon's Kindle may not be a harbinger of the company's future success in tablets, in our view," he said. "Until we see how Amazon fares, we think the next potential threat to Apple's tablet dominance is not until late 2012 when Windows 8-based tablets could hit the market."

[Partial]

Brian White with Ticonderoga Securities
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/09/16/apples_iphone_5_expected_to_steamroll_rims_blackbe rry_7_phones.html


As RIM begins to ramp-up availability of devices running its new BlackBerry 7 mobile operating system, Apple is expected to hold an event in the coming weeks to announce its fifth-generation iPhone. That next iPhone, in the eyes of analyst Brian White with Ticonderoga Securities, will "steamroll" RIM's BlackBerry 7 lineup.

White said RIM's BlackBerry fresh was simply too little, too late, and the Canadian company's struggles will only add to Apple's momentum. He sees that momentum going "off the charts" in October, when Apple's so-called "iPhone 5" is expected to debut.

As for RIM's PlayBook, White sees the touchscreen tablet following in the footsteps of HP's TouchPad with a potential discontinuation. He said the PlayBook is poised to be the "next casualty of iPad's tablet dominance."

RIM announced on Thursday that it shipped 10.6 million BlackBerry phones and 200,000 PlayBooks in the previous quarter. Its profits were down 47 percent year over year, and sales came in well below Wall Street estimates.

[mraynrand]

That cheese pizza I ate last night came out really stringy. I don't think it was worth the 4.99 I spent on it.

[MJZiggy]

That cheese pizza I ate last night came out really stringy. I don't think it was worth the 4.99 I spent on it.

You have to order Armand's. It's a truly awesome pizza experience and will soon be dominating the pizza market. Their website says so.

[mraynrand]

You have to order Armand's. It's a truly awesome pizza experience and will soon be dominating the pizza market. Their website says so.


What is their PEG? So long as I can get it down with two flushes or less, I'll buy it.

[retailguy]

You have to order Armand's. It's a truly awesome pizza experience and will soon be dominating the pizza market. Their website says so.

Their website doesn't matter, it only matters if it is found on an unbiased website like Apple Insider. You know, a reputable website with absolutely zero reason to "take the company line".

Armand's uses common ingredients that are readily available in the marketplace. They'll never make it in the real world. You'll see. I GUARANTEE IT.

[Little Whiskey]

Their website doesn't matter, it only matters if it is found on an unbiased website like Apple Insider. You know, a reputable website with absolutely zero reason to "take the company line".

Armand's uses common ingredients that are readily available in the marketplace. They'll never make it in the real world. You'll see. I GUARANTEE IT.

would you bet your bottom dollar?

[Deputy Nutz]

Buy tradable goods that are going to be valuable when the shit hits the fan. I would tell you all to buy ammo but I don't like you all enough.

[Deputy Nutz]

as a follow up you could make a killing in toliet paper

[mraynrand]

as a follow up you could make a killing in toliet paper

I can let you have 30,000 rolls of toilet paper that I happen to be sitting on

[Partial]

Their website doesn't matter, it only matters if it is found on an unbiased website like Apple Insider. You know, a reputable website with absolutely zero reason to "take the company line".

Armand's uses common ingredients that are readily available in the marketplace. They'll never make it in the real world. You'll see. I GUARANTEE IT.

Find some analysts that say otherwise, then. It's an unbiased site for shareholders. Why would they want shareholders to be misinformed, lose money, and stop visiting their site. Clearly you don't understand their business model.

[mraynrand]

I am going to make my own Gardasil and sell it for 50% off. Step 1: Isolate the live virus from my herpes sores.

[mraynrand]

Holy Jesus that hurt. Step 2: Now to culture those bastards on foreskin-derived keratinocytes. OUCH!

[swede]

Holy Jesus that hurt. Step 2: Now to culture those bastards on foreskin-derived keratinocytes. OUCH!If any of that stuff is going to be stored in your fridge I'm taking a pass on the homemade salsa dip come Sunday. There's no way of knowing what's been in your Tupperware.

[mraynrand]

If any of that stuff is going to be stored in your fridge I'm taking a pass on the homemade salsa dip come Sunday. There's no way of knowing what's been in your Tupperware.


No, No! I have the dedicated 37C incubator for this stuff. The minifridge is for the attenuated virus once I grow it up. What you have to worry about is the chicken room where I make up the antibodies. Don't worry though, when I make up the chicken wings with the left-over carcasses after harvesting the antibodies, they are cooked long enough to kill the viruses - mostly.

[MJZiggy]

Find some analysts that say otherwise, then. It's an unbiased site for shareholders. Why would they want shareholders to be misinformed, lose money, and stop visiting their site. Clearly you don't understand their business model.

An unbiased site will contain both praise and criticism. What does Apple Insider think Apple could be doing better? What weaknesses has Apple Insider identified. If they haven't identified any, then it's a propaganda site intended to get you to buy products and expensive stock.

[3irty1]

What a thread.

[mraynrand]

I'm conflicted about the way I grow chickens. I have them set up double decker. Problem is the guys upstairs crap on the guys downstairs. Now, my costs are lowered, because I can house more chickens per square foot in my basement laboratory, but I have to deal with chicken crap on half my animals. I can't afford more dropping pans, because of the economy. Oh well, I suppose I'd better get back to bleeding those chickens for more antibodies.

[MJZiggy]

I'm conflicted about the way I grow chickens. I have them set up double decker. Problem is the guys upstairs crap on the guys downstairs. Now, my costs are lowered, because I can house more chickens per square foot in my basement laboratory, but I have to deal with chicken crap on half my animals. I can't afford more dropping pans, because of the economy. Oh well, I suppose I'd better get back to bleeding those chickens for more antibodies.

You could always go free range.

[Patler]

I'm conflicted about the way I grow chickens. I have them set up double decker. Problem is the guys upstairs crap on the guys downstairs. Now, my costs are lowered, because I can house more chickens per square foot in my basement laboratory, but I have to deal with chicken crap on half my animals. I can't afford more dropping pans, because of the economy. Oh well, I suppose I'd better get back to bleeding those chickens for more antibodies.

Easy solution - use pens narrow enough that the damn things can't move in them. Perhaps you already use these. Offset the top pens about 2" from the bottom tier, with their buts overhanging the void below.

Simple, with minimal extra space needed. Heck, you can even add a third tier, offset by two inches from the middle tier. In just over 4" of floor space you can collect three tiers of chicken shit.

[retailguy]

Find some analysts that say otherwise, then. It's an unbiased site for shareholders. Why would they want shareholders to be misinformed, lose money, and stop visiting their site. Clearly you don't understand their business model.

Lmao... kinda like the one Ziggy posted last night? You cant even see your bias

[Partial]

Lmao... kinda like the one Ziggy posted last night? You cant even see your bias

I acknowledge that, but I don't see a lot of value in it. There is copious evidence that points to the exact opposite. I'll post a few examples in a few minutes.


An unbiased site will contain both praise and criticism. What does Apple Insider think Apple could be doing better? What weaknesses has Apple Insider identified. If they haven't identified any, then it's a propaganda site intended to get you to buy products and expensive stock.

It doesn't have an opinion on anything. It provides reports that ANALYSTS say. They are nothing but an aggregate of AAPL analyst opinions. The site's premise is for people who buy AAPL. They'll post stories of when analysts say buy, sell, what the rumors are and what the price should be, etc. I don't see how that is having an opinion, that is simply aggregating data. A simple Google search of AAPL provides very similar results when restricting time to current information.

I swear, I could say the sky is blue and you dumbasses would say it's purple. It's really quite pathetic. Get a life, losers. Instead of proclaiming the sky is purple, you could, I don't know, try studying investing principals and provide a compelling argument instead of being sarcastic pricks. Way to be delta bravos. I've met both of you and you weren't insufferable at all in person. I don't get why you desire being a total dick head online. It's quite pathetic.

[Partial]

http://www.neowin.net/news/survey-shows-android-users-ready-to-switch-to-iphone

Emphasis is my own.


The story said that according to a survey of 216 mobile phone users in the city of Minneapolis, a whopping 94 percent of current iPhone users plan to purchase yet another iPhone. By contrast, just 47 percent of Android plan to purchase another Android phone. Also 42 percent of Android users say they plan to make the iPhone their next smartphone. The news is even worse for RIM; just 26 percent of owners of RIM's Blackberry phones plan to purchase yet another Blackberry. A whopping 67 percent of Blackberry owners plan to switch over to the iPhone. Overall 36 percent of smartphone users are waiting it out to purchase an iPhone 5. As we have reported earlier today rumors have varied about when the iPhone 5 will be released, with some saying September while others saying it won't come out until October.

Gee, Zig, what say you? There are countless reports of this with Android users, and my real world observations of this are even higher. I know tons of women, because lets face it, I'm wonderful :-p, and every single one with an Android phone dislikes it and intends to switch to the iPhone once there contract is up.


Market research firm uSamp recorded the responses of more than 700 current smartphone owners on the Verizon network. According to those responses, around 66% of BlackBerry users on Verizon plan to switch, and around 44% of Android smartphone users plan to spring for the iPhone 4 on their current network.

Altogether, 54% of the Verizon-using, smartphone-owning respondents said they planned to switch to the Verizon iPhone.

http://mashable.com/2011/02/05/verizon-smartphone-switch-to-iphone/

Just a matter of time before their Android contracts run out and they jump to the beautiful life of iOs.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/01/survey-iphone-retention-94-vs-android-47/
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11251389/1/aapl-whats-the-next-level.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN

[mraynrand]

Easy solution - use pens narrow enough that the damn things can't move in them. Perhaps you already use these. Offset the top pens about 2" from the bottom tier, with their buts overhanging the void below.

Simple, with minimal extra space needed. Heck, you can even add a third tier, offset by two inches from the middle tier. In just over 4" of floor space you can collect three tiers of chicken shit.

Awesome idea. You know, I sell that chicken shit as fertilizer. Want some?

[MJZiggy]

http://www.neowin.net/news/survey-shows-android-users-ready-to-switch-to-iphone

Emphasis is my own.



Gee, Zig, what say you? There are countless reports of this with Android users, and my real world observations of this are even higher. I know tons of women, because lets face it, I'm wonderful :-p, and every single one with an Android phone dislikes it and intends to switch to the iPhone once there contract is up.



http://mashable.com/2011/02/05/verizon-smartphone-switch-to-iphone/

Just a matter of time before their Android contracts run out and they jump to the beautiful life of iOs.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/01/survey-iphone-retention-94-vs-android-47/
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11251389/1/aapl-whats-the-next-level.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN

The story said that according to a survey of 216 mobile phone users in the city of Minneapolis,

This is the data you're using to dispute an actual study by Pew research? A guy quoting another story where he read about a survey of 200 people in Minneapolis food courts? You do realize these are the same people who root for the Vikings, right? Absolutely use this data to inform your purchasing decisions. No critical thinking necessary. Was the food court in front of the Apple store by chance?

And Rand, my dear, we used chicken shit fertilizer (much like what's been posted in this thread) one year and couldn't go outside for three weeks. Most godawful smell around.

[mraynrand]

This is the data you're using to dispute an actual study by Pew research?

where are the stats on that study? How do you know they're not as faulty as those Gallup polls?

[Little Whiskey]

I

I swear, I could say the sky is blue and you dumbasses would say it's purple. It's really quite pathetic. Get a life, losers.


now that's funny!

[MJZiggy]

where are the stats on that study? How do you know they're not as faulty as those Gallup polls?

Methodology
This report is based on the findings of a survey on Americans' use of the Internet. The results in this report are based on data from telephone interviews conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International from April 26 to May 22, 2011, among a sample of 2,277 adults, age 18 and older. Telephone interviews were conducted in English and Spanish by landline (1,522) and cell phone (755, including 346 without a landline phone). For results based on the total sample, one can say with 95% confidence that the error attributable to sampling is plus or minus 2.4 percentage points. For results based Internet users (n=1,701), the margin of sampling error is plus or minus 2.7 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting telephone surveys may introduce some error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.

Is that ok?

[retailguy]

I swear, I could say the sky is blue and you dumbasses would say it's purple.

Now that's an original line! I swear I've heard that one before.

[retailguy]

And Rand, my dear, we used chicken shit fertilizer (much like what's been posted in this thread) one year and couldn't go outside for three weeks. Most godawful smell around.

NOTHING stinks like chicken shit and IPAD reviews.

[Partial]

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23034011


Worldwide media tablet shipments in the second quarter were driven by continued robust demand for Apple’s iPad 2, which saw shipments reach 9.3 million units, representing a 68.3% share of the worldwide market (up from 65.7% the previous quarter). Research in Motion entered the media tablet market in 2Q11 with its PlayBook product, grabbing a 4.9% share of the market. Apple’s strength and RIM’s entrance meant bad news for Android-based media tablets, which saw its collective share slip to 26.8%, down from 34.0% the previous quarter.


IDC expects Android’s market share to drop again to 23% during Q3

[Partial]

The story said that according to a survey of 216 mobile phone users in the city of Minneapolis,

This is the data you're using to dispute an actual study by Pew research? A guy quoting another story where he read about a survey of 200 people in Minneapolis food courts? You do realize these are the same people who root for the Vikings, right? Absolutely use this data to inform your purchasing decisions. No critical thinking necessary. Was the food court in front of the Apple store by chance?

Yes. I actually think this very small study is much more accurate than yours. Scientific or not, imo, it's an anomaly. As a scientist, I would personally throw out both studies as far too small of sample sizes when looking at almost 7 billion people.

The following statements are unrelated, but are very important:

1. iPhone 5 will be the best selling smart phone world wide in 2011. The iPhone's market share will grow. Androids market share will shrink in America from where it is now by 2012.

2. iPhone 5 will be an extremely profitable device. It will be the de facto smartphone. It will be a cash cow and lead to four consecutive record revenue/profit quarters from Apple in 2012.

3. iPad will be the best selling tablet world wide in 2011 by a very large margin. iPad's market share will continue to grow from where it is today.

4. iPad will be an extremely profitable device. It will be the de facto tablet. It will be a cash cow and lead to four conseuctive record revenue/profit quarters from Apple in 2012.


Now that's an original line! I swear I've heard that one before.

I don't get it?

[Little Whiskey]

I don't get it?

stop it your killing me! my side hurts!!

[Patler]

Partial,

Everything I have read seems to show that while Iphone may be the single largest in phone sales, Android is clearly the most popular system, and growing faster than AAPL's.

This reminds me of the Beta/VHS battle years ago.
- the one manufacturer with the most sales used Beta.
- Beta was exclusive to the one manufacturer.
- VHS was openly licensed to anyone.
- everyone else used VHS.
- For many reasons, the techies preferred Beta, were convinced that it was superior and believed it was only a matter of time until it made VHS disappear.

But, VHS was offered in many cheaper, inferior products which allowed it to penetrate the very large market of people who wanted something but couldn't afford the more expensive products with Beta.

The smartphone battle seems to be history repeating itself. It may not end well for AAPL years from now.

[superfan]

Umm Super....according to Kung Fu Panda there is no charge for awesomeness....or attractiveness.

Your Kung Fu is strong.

[superfan]

Partial,

Everything I have read seems to show that while Iphone may be the single largest in phone sales, Android is clearly the most popular system, and growing faster than AAPL's.

This reminds me of the Beta/VHS battle years ago.
- the one manufacturer with the most sales used Beta.
- Beta was exclusive to the one manufacturer.
- VHS was openly licensed to anyone.
- everyone else used VHS.
- For many reasons, the techies preferred Beta, were convinced that it was superior and believed it was only a matter of time until it made VHS disappear.

But, VHS was offered in many cheaper, inferior products which allowed it to penetrate the very large market of people who wanted something but couldn't afford the more expensive products with Beta.

The smartphone battle seems to be history repeating itself. It may not end well for AAPL years from now.

Excellent analogy. There are countless other examples where technologically superior products have failed to be successful due to a variety of reasons.

One thing the iPhone may have in its favor compared to predecessors is that the most common reasons those products failed were that they were either under-marketed or poorly marketed. I can't imagine anyone would claim that Apple has insufficiently promoted the iPhone.

[superfan]

There's a lot to like and dislike about Apple. OSX was a brilliant move for the company and is far superior in every way compared to OS9 and previous offerings. I personally dislike the iPhone, but it has been an unquestioned success and changed the entire industry, for better or worse. Same goes for iPods and the digital music revolution. Their desktops and laptops made in the last 5 years or so are overall good, competitive products, but not necessarily significantly better from either a quality or value perspective than other alternatives.

My biggest problem with Apple is summed up in the paragraph below:


Apple has something that you can't put a price on. They have the cool factor. Everything they do is cool, from the bleeding edge designs (who wants to be a have a boring beige box as a reflection of themselves), to incredible marketing (while every other company is talking about flash, and how much it's better than the iPhone, Apple talks about features because the leader is looking forward, not playing catch-up), to simply incredible stores (is there ever an Apple store that isn't just beautiful and cool? How much better would life be if every retail store was as pleasant of an experience?? My life would be immeasurably better).

Android will never be cool, there is nothing sexy/risky/dangerous/unique about the design, and nothing fast/fluid/interesting about the software. It's not fashionable, it's quite the opposite, as most people think it's the smartphone for nerds. Meanwhile, Apple has created the smartphone for human beings. It's fashionable, extremely user friendly, they've created an incredible infrastructure to support it, etc.

Millions of people perceive Apple is cool in large part because Apple and their fan base have told us over and over again how cool they are. The result of what is effectively mass brainwashing is nauseating. Apple has brilliantly crafted a marketing strategy of creating such passion and a "need" mentality around their products, preying on the insecurities of consumers - need to have the latest and greatest, need to be cool, need to be accepted. The "I don't care" iPhone video that went viral illustrates this effectively. Otherwise rational people become blinded and irrational when it comes to Apple products.

For me the Apple retail stores are the worst offenders. Everything about them shouts "look at how awesome we are, you can be awesome too". I see dozens of friendly and helpful store employees feeding the propaganda frenzy to the poor defenseless sheep who can't wait to tack a few more grand onto their credit balances for a chance to join the cool crowd. Ironically, when I'm in the store I think of the Apple Orwellian "1984" ad. Except in this case the brainwashed people are the Apple customers, and the woman with the hammer is Rowdy Roddy Piper wearing the glasses from the movie "They Live", who sees past the sleek exterior to the ugliness underneath.

From an investing perspective, you can't argue with the results, and I don't see Apple falling off the cliff anytime soon. But the company and its carefully concocted culture leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[mraynrand]

Methodology
This report is based on the findings of a survey on Americans' use of the Internet. The results in this report are based on data from telephone interviews conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International from April 26 to May 22, 2011, among a sample of 2,277 adults, age 18 and older. Telephone interviews were conducted in English and Spanish by landline (1,522) and cell phone (755, including 346 without a landline phone). For results based on the total sample, one can say with 95% confidence that the error attributable to sampling is plus or minus 2.4 percentage points. For results based Internet users (n=1,701), the margin of sampling error is plus or minus 2.7 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting telephone surveys may introduce some error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.

Is that ok?


:lol:

[Partial]

There's a lot to like and dislike about Apple. OSX was a brilliant move for the company and is far superior in every way compared to OS9 and previous offerings. I personally dislike the iPhone, but it has been an unquestioned success and changed the entire industry, for better or worse. Same goes for iPods and the digital music revolution. Their desktops and laptops made in the last 5 years or so are overall good, competitive products, but not necessarily significantly better from either a quality or value perspective than other alternatives.

I disagreee. What is there to dislike? User friendly software? Beautiful hardware? Innovation? Having their software make a statement? Having their hardware make a statement? C'mon man, at the very least, one can disagree with Apple, but you certainly cannot dislike how they do things. They're opinionated and proud of it. Who else understands user experience like Apple? The thing about Apple is you don't realize how life is without a feature until you see it. Steve Jobs is reknown for his ability to skate to where the puck is going to be instead of where it currently is. Apple makes features in software that wow you and make you ask, "Wow, have did I ever live without this? Why was it designed so poorly to begin with??" where as the competition is too busy playing catch-up with Apple to be at all innovative. Windows 8 looks really great and it's the most innovative thing out of Redmond in years. Hopefully we can all use the beautiful shell. Life will be wonderful and we'll all be asking how we lived without it for so long!



My biggest problem with Apple is summed up in the paragraph below:

Millions of people perceive Apple is cool in large part because Apple and their fan base have told us over and over again how cool they are. The result of what is effectively mass brainwashing is nauseating. Apple has brilliantly crafted a marketing strategy of creating such passion and a "need" mentality around their products, preying on the insecurities of consumers - need to have the latest and greatest, need to be cool, need to be accepted. The "I don't care" iPhone video that went viral illustrates this effectively. Otherwise rational people become blinded and irrational when it comes to Apple products.

Again, I disagree. People love Apple products because they are far superior to the competition in both price and performance. There are countless articles about how the competition didn't anticipate the subnotebook trend, so they didn't lock in prices with vendors and can't compete with Apple on the price.

People like to talk about how Android has market share, but they don't account that the iPhone is the best selling smart phone, and if it were on every carrier, all statistics point to iOs making Android it's bitch. Android is such a complex system that it expects users to manage memory, something that Windows doesn't even expect the typical user to do. Meanwhile, iOs is fast, beautful and sleek. As someone who works with BOTH platforms on a daily basis, I'm considered as a trusted authority and advisor on the systems. It's crystal clear to me that iOs runs away with the crown as a result of my real world usage of both platforms, industry expertise, etc.

Apple pushes tecnology forward and for that you should be thankful. How many other companies are out there just trying to be a nice italians restaurant and earn a decent living without actually innovating or doing anything unique or to make the world a better place? Without Apple, we wouldn't have App stores. Is there any other way to get apps now? I can't imagine going away from this delightful model as both a producer and consumer (I have 9 iOs apps). We wouldn't have ever had the iPod. Smartphones would still be running the garbage known as Windows Phone 6, and Android would look like a Blackberry (They absolutely ripped off iOs, look at the early data about Android and it's startling).


For me the Apple retail stores are the worst offenders. Everything about them shouts "look at how awesome we are, you can be awesome too". I see dozens of friendly and helpful store employees feeding the propaganda frenzy to the poor defenseless sheep who can't wait to tack a few more grand onto their credit balances for a chance to join the cool crowd. Ironically, when I'm in the store I think of the Apple Orwellian "1984" ad. Except in this case the brainwashed people are the Apple customers, and the woman with the hammer is Rowdy Roddy Piper wearing the glasses from the movie "They Live", who sees past the sleek exterior to the ugliness underneath.

Informed employees who don't pressure you? Beautiful environments that focus on the product and make it the centerpoint of the store? When I'm in an Apple store, I think wow, this is how all retail should be. When I'm in Best Buy, I'm basically hating my life being pressured into bullshit products by uninformed employees (I worked there for a year, most people there are absolute idiots and their training programs are garbage) being pressured into overpriced extended warranties! Give me a break dude! Apple is everything that is good about retail. Best buy is everyhting that is bad about retail.


From an investing perspective, you can't argue with the results, and I don't see Apple falling off the cliff anytime soon. But the company and its carefully concocted culture leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

You cannot argue with the results, and they won't fall off anytime soon. They are just too far ahead of the competition to get caught in the next year or two. After that, who knows? I sure don't. It's largely irrelevant by then because most investors will have made a killing by then anyway. Funny story, a close friend of mines parents bought in at 10 dollars with 10k. They now have 400k. When it hits 600, they will have 600k. One of his parents became very ill. Thank god for Apple and the profits they have held onto from it allowing them to pay for the surgeries he's needed! Life has a funny way of working out like that!!

Apple's culture is that of user experience. I encounter tons of people every day who don't understand user experience and try to design software using Microsoft as a model. Yuck! Apple gets that users want simple and to focus on accomplishing a task instead of f'in around with that which does not matter. You would have a very difficult time naming companies that write more feature rich yet simple elegant software then they do (short of iTunes, which is horribly bloated).

[Partial]

Partial,

Everything I have read seems to show that while Iphone may be the single largest in phone sales, Android is clearly the most popular system, and growing faster than AAPL's.

This reminds me of the Beta/VHS battle years ago.
- the one manufacturer with the most sales used Beta.
- Beta was exclusive to the one manufacturer.
- VHS was openly licensed to anyone.
- everyone else used VHS.
- For many reasons, the techies preferred Beta, were convinced that it was superior and believed it was only a matter of time until it made VHS disappear.

But, VHS was offered in many cheaper, inferior products which allowed it to penetrate the very large market of people who wanted something but couldn't afford the more expensive products with Beta.

The smartphone battle seems to be history repeating itself. It may not end well for AAPL years from now.

Patrick,

Android is the most popular system because of the iPhones carrier restriction. All statistics I've read point to it crushing the competition on a per carrier basis. See data that it's the most popular smartphone on both ATT and Verizon by a mile. A crystal clear indicator of this is the iPad. It has, what, 70% market share despite being out what, 6 months longer than the competition (if that)?

Steve said that he won't make the mistake again of going for margins instead of market share. Due to Apple's superior supply chain, plethora of patents (which are BS in my opinion), etc, they are producing higher quality handsets (John Ive design) for as much money as the competition, so the issue isn't supply chain and licensing. This time around, once they're on all carriers, they'll compete head to head on level playing ground with Android and win. Does anyone really think that Android is a more polished user experience? You're kidding yourself if this is the case?? Apple understand what is it at stake monetarily and won't lose to the competition (previously Microsoft) again.

I have no doubt that Android is a high priority for Google and something they thing is mission critical to future success. Having said that, as good as Google search is, I think that Google, in general, misses on user experience. Android is not at all user friendly. It has serious issues with malware, bloatware on stock devices, fragmentation, allocation of limited resources, etc. The fact that the rom community and rooting is so common is a testament to how big of a "nerd" device it is.

The Beta/VHS comparisons are moot because you aren't looking at UX, which is the single most important factor in my professional opinion. My other professional thought is that Windows Phone 7 is the competition, not Android. Microsoft has their toe in way too much commercial software not to get into the thick of things, and their UX is incredible for WP7.

[MJZiggy]

XXXXXXX,

Android is the most popular system because of the iPhones carrier restriction. All statistics I've read point to it crushing the competition on a per carrier basis. See data that it's the most popular smartphone on both ATT and Verizon by a mile. A crystal clear indicator of this is the iPad. It has, what, 70% market share despite being out what, 6 months longer than the competition (if that)?

Steve said that he won't make the mistake again of going for margins instead of market share. Due to Apple's superior supply chain, plethora of patents (which are BS in my opinion), etc, they are producing higher quality handsets (John Ive design) for as much money as the competition, so the issue isn't supply chain and licensing. This time around, once they're on all carriers, they'll compete head to head on level playing ground with Android and win. Does anyone really think that Android is a more polished user experience? You're kidding yourself if this is the case?? Apple understand what is it at stake monetarily and won't lose to the competition (previously Microsoft) again.

I have no doubt that Android is a high priority for Google and something they thing is mission critical to future success. Having said that, as good as Google search is, I think that Google, in general, misses on user experience. Android is not at all user friendly. It has serious issues with malware, bloatware on stock devices, fragmentation, allocation of limited resources, etc. The fact that the rom community and rooting is so common is a testament to how big of a "nerd" device it is.

The Beta/VHS comparisons are moot because you aren't looking at UX, which is the single most important factor in my professional opinion. My other professional thought is that Windows Phone 7 is the competition, not Android. Microsoft has their toe in way too much commercial software not to get into the thick of things, and their UX is incredible for WP7.

Are you trying to get banned again?

[MJZiggy]

:lol:
Click through to Pew and read the rest of the two pages on their methodology then. Or at least give us an actual reason for your dismissal of the sample. Because it's written in lay terms does not make it invalid.

[mraynrand]

Click through to Pew and read the rest of the two pages on their methodology then. Or at least give us an actual reason for your dismissal of the sample. Because it's written in lay terms does not make it invalid.

Do you really think I cared one whit about the stats? Don't you know when your chain is being pulled?

[mraynrand]

Funny story, a close friend of mines parents bought in at 10 dollars with 10k. They now have 400k. When it hits 600, they will have 600k. One of his parents became very ill. Thank god for Apple and the profits they have held onto from it allowing them to pay for the surgeries he's needed! Life has a funny way of working out like that!!

1) That's not really a funny story.
2) I am going to buy in now with 10K at 600, so when it gets to 36,000, I can pay for my prostate surgery.

[Little Whiskey]

I thought obamacare was going to pay for all our surgeries?

[Patler]

Patrick,

Android is the most popular system because of the iPhones carrier restriction. All statistics I've read point to it crushing the competition on a per carrier basis. See data that it's the most popular smartphone on both ATT and Verizon by a mile. A crystal clear indicator of this is the iPad. It has, what, 70% market share despite being out what, 6 months longer than the competition (if that)?

Steve said that he won't make the mistake again of going for margins instead of market share. Due to Apple's superior supply chain, plethora of patents (which are BS in my opinion), etc, they are producing higher quality handsets (John Ive design) for as much money as the competition, so the issue isn't supply chain and licensing. This time around, once they're on all carriers, they'll compete head to head on level playing ground with Android and win. Does anyone really think that Android is a more polished user experience? You're kidding yourself if this is the case?? Apple understand what is it at stake monetarily and won't lose to the competition (previously Microsoft) again.

I have no doubt that Android is a high priority for Google and something they thing is mission critical to future success. Having said that, as good as Google search is, I think that Google, in general, misses on user experience. Android is not at all user friendly. It has serious issues with malware, bloatware on stock devices, fragmentation, allocation of limited resources, etc. The fact that the rom community and rooting is so common is a testament to how big of a "nerd" device it is.

The Beta/VHS comparisons are moot because you aren't looking at UX, which is the single most important factor in my professional opinion. My other professional thought is that Windows Phone 7 is the competition, not Android. Microsoft has their toe in way too much commercial software not to get into the thick of things, and their UX is incredible for WP7.

You fail to understand what went on during the Beta/VHS war. Sony created the home video recording market when people didn't even know they wanted such a thing (sound familiar to Apple?) They had the first consumer targeted VTR, and quickly followed it with the first VCR. Many of the first new features came from Sony, things like paused recording, recording one channel while watching another, thinner and narrower tapes making for compact size, slow motion, indexing, etc.. Initially, picture quality was better on Beta. All very similar to what you now proclaim to be the unsurpassable advantage held by Apple. Sony had better features, provided a better user experience and a far superior visual package because it was much smaller and lighter.

However, the fact that multiple competitors went to the VHS format lead to competition between them, and ultimately new and more rapid development of the VHS format than the Beta format. Most importantly, VHS became cheaper. For a long time features were better on Beta, but not everyone could afford to pay for all of those features. They wanted a cheaper option with the most basic features, so they bought VHS models. Eventually, the shear volume of VHS from multiple providers simply buried Beta.

I could see the smartphone wars going the same way as VCRs. It doesn't matter if Android is the one, or something else. If one competitor is selling one thing, and most others are selling something different, the one competitor can easily lose the battle for a consumer based product.

For the time being at least, AAPL remains a very good investment opportunity. They climbed back to just above $400 yesterday, just short of their previous high of $404. I expect they will surpass that leading into their next quarterly.

[Scott Campbell]

Patrick,

Android is the most popular system because of the iPhones carrier restriction.


Except that's only one factor. Just as big a factor is that lots of manufacturers are free to build Android phones. And thus, Android provides many more choices in phones, as well as carriers.


Sony didn't license beta. VHS won.

Apple didn't license the Mac OS. Windows won.


There might be a pattern here.

[MJZiggy]

You fail to understand what went on during the Beta/VHS war. Sony created the home video recording market when people didn't even know they wanted such a thing (sound familiar to Apple?) They had the first consumer targeted VTR, and quickly followed it with the first VCR. Many of the first new features came from Sony, things like paused recording, recording one channel while watching another, thinner and narrower tapes making for compact size, slow motion, indexing, etc.. Initially, picture quality was better on Beta. All very similar to what you now proclaim to be the unsurpassable advantage held by Apple. Sony had better features, provided a better user experience and a far superior visual package because it was much smaller and lighter.

However, the fact that multiple competitors went to the VHS format lead to competition between them, and ultimately new and more rapid development of the VHS format than the Beta format. Most importantly, VHS became cheaper. For a long time features were better on Beta, but not everyone could afford to pay for all of those features. They wanted a cheaper option with the most basic features, so they bought VHS models. Eventually, the shear volume of VHS from multiple providers simply buried Beta.

I could see the smartphone wars going the same way as VCRs. It doesn't matter if Android is the one, or something else. If one competitor is selling one thing, and most others are selling something different, the one competitor can easily lose the battle for a consumer based product.

For the time being at least, AAPL remains a very good investment opportunity. They climbed back to just above $400 yesterday, just short of their previous high of $404. I expect they will surpass that leading into their next quarterly.

Sony was the hot commodity that I was searching for. Remember how hot the Walkman was? Damn Sony was on the cutting edge, weren't they.

[Patler]

Sony was the hot commodity that I was searching for. Remember how hot the Walkman was? Damn Sony was on the cutting edge, weren't they.

Ya, there was a time when Sony was the consumer electronics god. Sony TV's were widely viewed as a cut above the rest for a long time, too. Sony audio systems for quality and price as a combination. Sony gadgets too.

[Patler]

Except that's only one factor. Just as big a factor is that lots of manufacturers are free to build Android phones. And thus, Android provides many more choices in phones, as well as carriers.


Sony didn't license beta. VHS won.

Apple didn't license the Mac OS. Windows won.


There might be a pattern here.

Sure looks like one to me!

[MJZiggy]

Do you really think I cared one whit about the stats? Don't you know when your chain is being pulled?

Not at 5 a.m. apparently...

[MJZiggy]

Ya, there was a time when Sony was the consumer electronics god. Sony TV's were widely viewed as a cut above the rest for a long time, too. Sony audio systems for quality and price as a combination. Sony gadgets too.

Just make you want to buy Sony stock, doesn't it?

[Little Whiskey]

Sony was the hot commodity that I was searching for. Remember how hot the Walkman was? Damn Sony was on the cutting edge, weren't they.

bleeding edge

[Patler]

Ya, there was a time when Sony was the consumer electronics god. Sony TV's were widely viewed as a cut above the rest for a long time, too. Sony audio systems for quality and price as a combination. Sony gadgets too.


Just make you want to buy Sony stock, doesn't it?

Honestly, at the time they were on the top, sure, maybe. Same thing for Apple now. AAPL has been my single largest holding this year, but by no means my only holding. Nor does it mean that I expect to own it the rest of my life, or that I think it will be a great stock to own in 5 years, or 2 years, or even 1 year. I only believe it is good to own right now, and I will continue to re-evaluate that opinion.

[Partial]

Except that's only one factor. Just as big a factor is that lots of manufacturers are free to build Android phones. And thus, Android provides many more choices in phones, as well as carriers.

To a degree, yes. I think you'd have a hard time telling HTC that it's free to build Android devices. They're being sued into oblivion. The Motorola Mobility patent profile is weak evidently and analysts don't expect it to help much. In addition to that, HTC pays a hefty licensing fee to Microsoft for patents in every handset they sell.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11217263/1/microsoft-reaps-android-licensing-fees.html

Google is also in some seriously hot water for not licensing java properly. Oracle won't back down.

Having said that, I think this is ridiculous. Patent law is so backwards in software. I would love it if Google really could distribute it for free. Hopefully they will be able to soon. To clarify, Android's presence is good. Android as a consumer piece of software is a nightmare.



Sony didn't license beta. VHS won.

Apple didn't license the Mac OS. Windows won.

There might be a pattern here.

Did MS really win? Apple makes more money and is worth more today. I agree that marketshare is hugely important and Windows clearly dominates this. At the end of the day, though, the goal of the business is to make money, so shouldn't this be the merit we choose the winner on? By that merit, Apple is currently winning.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-28/tech/30088122_1_windows-phone-microsoft-profit


Scott, what do you have to say about the tablet market where we have a wide variety of competitors and a slew of Android tablets. Adoption rate of tablets has been as fast as any consumer electronic ever developed and Androids adoption rate/market share is actually decreasing instead of increasing in this space. The same principals of being free to use and a wide variety of Android tablets exist. How do you explain this?

What is the difference between smart phones and tablets? Is there a big difference in quality of the user experience between the iPhone and the iPad? Is the level of competition different? What about the quality of the versions of Android between the two?

To me, the big difference is the middle man (the carriers). This soon won't be an issue for iPhone.

Pat, to me, AAPL has a few more good years in it before the growth will slow down. They simply cannot keep doubling in sales every year for much longer. Having said that, I think they can continue to grow rapidly for two more years at least.

It is refreshing to discuss with intellectuals, fellas. Keep it up. It would be great if the likes of RG/Ziggy would bring something besides sarcasm and ass-hattery to the table if they wished to continue to discuss.

edit:

I cannot stress enough how we are now in the age of software. Software is what will define the two technologies. With the vhs stuff, we're looking at hardware. Both had roughly equivalent user experiences, did they not? Maybe one had technical superiority, I don't know. In my opinion, this battle will be won in software. If the iPhone never existed and Android gingerbread was the standard, we'd think it was incredible. Having said that, iOs does exist and it's a much more pleasant user experience. Smartphones are so paramount in your typical person's day (email, calendar, calls, communication, etc) that the user wants the best possible experience.

Android has some unique characteristics that are good, such as their notification system that Apple blatantly ripped off. It seems to be that basically all of the complaints/reasons people would go with Android today are going to be moot with the iPhone 5.

"Android phones have bigger screens" - iPhone 5 will have a beautiful 4" display (which is still the highest res display) which in my opinion is really the sweet spot on screen size. The original galaxy phones nailed the screen.

"I can't get an iPhone on my carrier and I'm on a family plan" - Not anymore, iPhone will be available on all of the major players according to the rumors. I really hope this is true.

The iCloud stuff breaking the cord from iTunes will really help. The iTunes infrastructure with music, videos, etc is great, but the notion of plugging in to load some on my device seems so archaic to me. This is late 2011, after all.

Users are going to be wowed when they snap photos on their iPhone and they automatically on their computer. Who doesn't hate synching photos? I know I do!

Little things like the photo synching things just make your life as a user better. Now this is obviously a super small chunk of the equation, but the user experience is made up of the sum of (the small) parts.

[Patler]

With the vhs stuff, we're looking at hardware. Both had roughly equivalent user experiences, did they not? Maybe one had technical superiority, I don't know. In my opinion, this battle will be won in software. If the iPhone never existed and Android gingerbread was the standard, we'd think it was incredible. Having said that, iOs does exist and it's a much more pleasant user experience. Smartphones are so paramount in your typical person's day (email, calendar, calls, communication, etc) that the user wants the best possible experience.

Android has some unique characteristics that are good, such as their notification system that Apple blatantly ripped off. It seems to be that basically all of the complaints/reasons people would go with Android today are going to be moot with the iPhone 5..

No, they did not have roughly the same user experience for quite a while.

Sony - smaller, easier to carry from room to room. VHS competitors big and clumsy. In the early days, I'm talking about machines maybe 30+ inches and very, very heavy.

Sony- you could watch one channel and record on another. VHS - had to watch the channel that the recorder was recording. People had a dedicated TV just for their recorder.

Sony - you could pause a recording (and edit out a commercial by doing it). You could also "live pause" a playback, comeback and continue from where you paused. Initially, VHS erquired continuous run. There was no "pause" and if you hit "stop" it would stop recording or playing completely and automatically rewind to the beginning of the tape for most of them.

These are just some that come to mind.




Users are going to be wowed when they snap photos on their iPhone and they automatically on their computer. Who doesn't hate synching photos? I know I do!

Little things like the photo synching things just make your life as a user better. Now this is obviously a super small chunk of the equation, but the user experience is made up of the sum of (the small) parts.

SOME users will be wowed by those things, but I suspect for many (maybe even most) they won't really care all that much. I have a sneaking feeling that the vast majority of smartphone users in the future will be using basic functions and will not be life dependent on the glitz and glamor features. However, the ones for which it is a big "wow" will be the vocal ones and make it sound like it is more important than it really is.

[MJZiggy]

No, they did not have roughly the same user experience for quite a while.

Sony - smaller, easier to carry from room to room. VHS competitors big and clumsy. In the early days, I'm talking about machines maybe 30+ inches and very, very heavy.

Sony- you could watch one channel and record on another. VHS - had to watch the channel that the recorder was recording. People had a dedicated TV just for their recorder.

Sony - you could pause a recording (and edit out a commercial by doing it). You could also "live pause" a playback, comeback and continue from where you paused. Initially, VHS erquired continuous run. There was no "pause" and if you hit "stop" it would stop recording or playing completely and automatically rewind to the beginning of the tape for most of them.

These are just some that come to mind.




SOME users will be wowed by those things, but I suspect for many (maybe even most) they won't really care all that much. I have a sneaking feeling that the vast majority of smartphone users in the future will be using basic functions and will not be life dependent on the glitz and glamor features. However, the ones for which it is a big "wow" will be the vocal ones and make it sound like it is more important than it really is.

I think Sony's problem was that they invented very cool and high-quality bells and whistles that were also a bit on the expensive side and then everyone else took the ideas and flooded the market with cheaper products that did the exact same things and, as technology advanced learned to do them even better and smaller. When the market flooded and the cool factor of owning an original Walkman (or whatever device) wore off, Sony's share in it became closer to a niche than a domination.

[Scott Campbell]

Did MS really win? Apple makes more money and is worth more today.


We were talking products - not company. Windows beat Mac. Pretty handily. It nearly killed AAPL. It ushered in the John Scully era, when Jobs got the boot.

[Partial]

I think Sony's problem was that they invented very cool and high-quality bells and whistles that were also a bit on the expensive side and then everyone else took the ideas and flooded the market with cheaper products that did the exact same things and, as technology advanced learned to do them even better and smaller. When the market flooded and the cool factor of owning an original Walkman (or whatever device) wore off, Sony's share in it became closer to a niche than a domination.

Maybe, but then again why do people drive BMWs, and Mercedes? It's quite ironic the stance RG is in this discussion about fancy devices when he at least used to drive a Mercedes. Is there any thing more delta bravo and hypocritical about bitching about the price of a high end luxury good when you drive a Mercedes? LOL!

"These high end Apple computers with their proprietary parts are too expensive. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go to International Autos to have my luxury sedan serviced because the proprietary German parts aren't commonly available". Ha! Too funny.



Scott, I'm legitimately interested in this from a businessman's perspective:



Scott, what do you have to say about the tablet market where we have a wide variety of competitors and a slew of Android tablets. Adoption rate of tablets has been as fast as any consumer electronic ever developed and Androids adoption rate/market share is actually decreasing instead of increasing in this space. The same principals of being free to use and a wide variety of Android tablets exist. How do you explain this?

What is the difference between smart phones and tablets? Is there a big difference in quality of the user experience between the iPhone and the iPad? Is the level of competition different? What about the quality of the versions of Android between the two?

To me, the big difference is the middle man (the carriers). This soon won't be an issue for iPhone.

[Patler]

I think Sony's problem was that they invented very cool and high-quality bells and whistles that were also a bit on the expensive side and then everyone else took the ideas and flooded the market with cheaper products that did the exact same things and, as technology advanced learned to do them even better and smaller. When the market flooded and the cool factor of owning an original Walkman (or whatever device) wore off, Sony's share in it became closer to a niche than a domination.

Yup, that's pretty much it. I don't see that as much different than what is happening today.

[Scott Campbell]

Scott, what do you have to say about the tablet market where we have a wide variety of competitors and a slew of Android tablets. Adoption rate of tablets has been as fast as any consumer electronic ever developed and Androids adoption rate/market share is actually decreasing instead of increasing in this space. The same principals of being free to use and a wide variety of Android tablets exist. How do you explain this?


I'm still not entirely sold long term on the tablet market. They may still be selling on their novelty value vs. their practical value. But the sales numbers are pretty eye popping. So I'm watching developments with an open mind.

The market looks like it's playing out a lot like the PDA cellphone market. Apple has taken a concept that's been around a long time and built a UI that transformed the potential of the market into an actual market. Android ain't there, and doesn't currently have a competitive product. But Google has proven adept at playing "me too" over time, and I wouldn't write them off in the table space yet.

[Scott Campbell]

To me, the big difference is the middle man (the carriers). This soon won't be an issue for iPhone.


They already have AT&T and Verizon - the two dominant carriers in the US. I think your hopes for carrier based market share growth might be a little over zealous.

[Scott Campbell]

Users are going to be wowed when they snap photos on their iPhone and they automatically on their computer. Who doesn't hate synching photos? I know I do!

How long will that be a differentiating feature? Google already snycs to everything else.

And it looks like Samsung has already eliminated the iPhones advantage over Android for picture and video taking.



What I'm seeing at the moment is relative feature parity, with users primarily choosing one platform over the other based on personal preference and familiarity. And price.

[Partial]

They already have AT&T and Verizon - the two dominant carriers in the US. I think your hopes for carrier based market share growth might be a little over zealous.

They dominate ATT. They went onto Verizon more than half way through their typical product cycle. The product, despite being a foolish buy now in my opinion, remains Verizon's best selling phone. It's been on Verizon 9 months so, so it's (24 months - 9 months) - time remaining on contract before a lot of people can affordably get an iPhone on Verizon. Assuming an average distribution of contract signings throughout the year, 5/8 of the people interested in an iPhone on Verizon haven't had the opportunity to upgrade yet.

Google syncs to their cloud stuff. Apple syncs directly to all of your systems. Apple has the infrastructure to sync to computers, TV's (The Apple TV 2nd get is the de facto media streamer -- it will only get bigger and bigger if they release an app store for it -- the amateur porn channel (I wish) ), etc. Using Google's set-up, I would still have to log-in to my Google photos account (what is this, Picasa?) and download the pics. Why not just plug the device in then?

Unless Google TVs and Google Chrome Books start flying off shelves (not happening), they don't have the infrastructure to make it valuable.

[Scott Campbell]

It's quite ironic the stance RG is in this discussion about fancy devices when he at least used to drive a Mercedes. Is there any thing more delta bravo and hypocritical about bitching about the price of a high end luxury good when you drive a Mercedes? LOL!


Not the way he does it. He's buying used and not getting killed on depreciation. I think people might be shocked if they looked at what he's paying on a cost per mile basis.

[MJZiggy]

I'm still not entirely sold long term on the tablet market. They may still be selling on their novelty value vs. their practical value. But the sales numbers are pretty eye popping. So I'm watching developments with an open mind.

The market looks like it's playing out a lot like the PDA cellphone market. Apple has taken a concept that's been around a long time and built a UI that transformed the potential of the market into an actual market. Android ain't there, and doesn't currently have a competitive product. But Google has proven adept at playing "me too" over time, and I wouldn't write them off in the table space yet.

P brought up an entry by RIM as a competitor to the Android tablet, but if RIM puts out a decent product, how do we know that it will eat at Android's share of the market and not Apple's?

I ran into a friend today at the store today and she said she'd considered asking for an iPad for her upcoming birthday, but decided she didn't want a tablet. I don't either. I've seen someone playing ABirds on one and it looks nice, but I don't see a tablet doing anything my phone can't do and it doesn't have a keyboard, so if I'm writing, I'd rather have my laptop. I also don't want to carry it around because I prefer to travel light, usually carrying only my phone/wallet and keys. What's the tablet niche for a smartphone user?

[Scott Campbell]

They dominate ATT. They went onto Verizon more than half way through their typical product cycle. The product, despite being a foolish buy now in my opinion, remains Verizon's best selling phone. It's been on Verizon 9 months so, so it's (24 months - 9 months) - time remaining on contract before a lot of people can affordably get an iPhone on Verizon. Assuming an average distribution of contract signings throughout the year, 5/8 of the people interested in an iPhone on Verizon haven't had the opportunity to upgrade yet.


We'll see what happens. AAPL has to give people a good reason to switch platforms and work through a new OS learning curve, and there's not the much differentiating the two at the moment. Sammy's releasing some really nice Andoroid stuff that is being reviewed favorably in comparison to the iPhone.

[MJZiggy]

Not the way he does it. He's buying used and not getting killed on depreciation. I think people might be shocked if they looked at what he's paying on a cost per mile basis.

He also keeps his cars for a long time which is why he sticks with the Mercedes brand. Longevity. I have an Acura that I got for the price of a used Civic and will keep it for a long, long time. It never breaks down, gets good mileage and is cheap to maintain and insure.

p.s. If I take a photo with my phone, I REALLY don't want it automatically synched to my computer.

[Scott Campbell]

Ya, there was a time when Sony was the consumer electronics god. Sony TV's were widely viewed as a cut above the rest for a long time, too. Sony audio systems for quality and price as a combination. Sony gadgets too.


Being better isn't necessarily enough. Hitachi built the best plasmas. They're out of the market now. Then Pioneer built the best plasmas. They're out of the market now too.


Even when it comes to the iPod, the audiophile community avoids them. There are better sounding players out there.

[retailguy]

Not the way he does it. He's buying used and not getting killed on depreciation. I think people might be shocked if they looked at what he's paying on a cost per mile basis.


He also keeps his cars for a long time which is why he sticks with the Mercedes brand. Longevity. I have an Acura that I got for the price of a used Civic and will keep it for a long, long time. It never breaks down, gets good mileage and is cheap to maintain and insure.

p.s. If I take a photo with my phone, I REALLY don't want it automatically synched to my computer.


Thanks guys. And you're exactly right.

He's really scraping the bottom of the barrel out of desperation here.

Partial - I bought my mercedes when it was 6 years old and had 55k miles. I paid $10k, cash. I'm still driving it. It will hit 170k miles in about a month and a half. In the time I've owned it, I have put less than $4k dollars in it that I do not consider routine maintenance (Not bad for 7 years of driving, I don't think). I do some work myself (replace O2 sensors, recharge a/c, plugs, etc). The rest, I have a mobile mechanic who comes to my home and does the work in my driveway. He charges $80 an hour, and doesn't care if I buy parts or he does. There are a plethora of after market parts (big difference from apple, huh?), and availability has NEVER been a problem. Nor price. the car has never seen the inside of a Mercedes dealer and never will...

I have no intentions of getting rid of the car anytime soon, my 15 year old will be driving in a year. Will make a good 1st car for her, if she can afford it. (NO free cars in this family).

Ah, to be 25 and inexperienced again...

Scott, my $ per mile is about a cheap as it could ever get. the only knock against my car is that I'm down to about 19mpg after averaging about 22mpg for most of the life I've had it. Haven't figured out why yet, but I will. Not bad for a 4.2 litre v8, but it's a challenge.. you know?

[retailguy]

I'm still not entirely sold long term on the tablet market. They may still be selling on their novelty value vs. their practical value. But the sales numbers are pretty eye popping. So I'm watching developments with an open mind.

The market looks like it's playing out a lot like the PDA cellphone market. Apple has taken a concept that's been around a long time and built a UI that transformed the potential of the market into an actual market. Android ain't there, and doesn't currently have a competitive product. But Google has proven adept at playing "me too" over time, and I wouldn't write them off in the table space yet.


I bought two android tablets last weekend. they got here in the past few days. I really like them. They do more than my girls IPAD 1's. That's to be expected as they are different technologically.

I like the HDMI ports, the SD card slots, and the USB connections. Nothing proprietary about any of them. A $4 adapter for the HDMI port, and I'm streaming to my TV. Nice feature when I'm traveling on business.

I agree with Ziggy about the novelty factor. I see some uses, and in some ways, not so much. I don't have an IPAD 2 to compare it to, but I really can't see anything i'd want to do that it can't do. I paid less for 2 android tablets than I would have paid for 1 IPAD 2 that would've met my needs. Maybe I've got a dinosaur, but I doubt it.

My experience has been great so far, and for the price I paid, if it doesn't work out, I'll use them as photo frames and mount 'em on the wall.

If there is one thing I am not, it's trendy. That stuff isn't important to me, which is why I drive a 13 year old mercedes..... LMAO.

[retailguy]

Being better isn't necessarily enough. Hitachi built the best plasmas. They're out of the market now. Then Pioneer built the best plasmas. They're out of the market now too.


Even when it comes to the iPod, the audiophile community avoids them. There are better sounding players out there.

Cheaper players too.

I love the griping he's done over Samsung copying Apple's patents. Remember the $10m that Apple paid Creative for violating their patents related to the IPOD? Convenient how that gets forgotten.....

I love my old Creative mp3/video player. Still meets all my needs. Paid $99 for it about 4 years ago on clearance out of the Creative online store. Still use it when I travel. It's a little thick, but who gives a shit? I get about 4 hours out of it when watching video. It'll play anything and I've never once had to use ITUNES... I just copy the files to it using Windows explorer... Takes about 2 minutes and it never crashes on me..... LMAO.

[retailguy]

I don't get it?


Your analogy is the last one I gave you in the last email I wrote you three weeks ago... At least I know you read it.

[Partial]

Your analogy is the last one I gave you in the last email I wrote you three weeks ago... At least I know you read it.

I don't recall this but I'm sure you're correct. It's a common expression. I didn't intend to rip your line.


Thanks guys. And you're exactly right.

He's really scraping the bottom of the barrel out of desperation here.

Partial - I bought my mercedes when it was 6 years old and had 55k miles. I paid $10k, cash. I'm still driving it. It will hit 170k miles in about a month and a half. In the time I've owned it, I have put less than $4k dollars in it that I do not consider routine maintenance (Not bad for 7 years of driving, I don't think). I do some work myself (replace O2 sensors, recharge a/c, plugs, etc). The rest, I have a mobile mechanic who comes to my home and does the work in my driveway. He charges $80 an hour, and doesn't care if I buy parts or he does. There are a plethora of after market parts (big difference from apple, huh?), and availability has NEVER been a problem. Nor price. the car has never seen the inside of a Mercedes dealer and never will...

I have no intentions of getting rid of the car anytime soon, my 15 year old will be driving in a year. Will make a good 1st car for her, if she can afford it. (NO free cars in this family).

Ah, to be 25 and inexperienced again...

Scott, my $ per mile is about a cheap as it could ever get. the only knock against my car is that I'm down to about 19mpg after averaging about 22mpg for most of the life I've had it. Haven't figured out why yet, but I will. Not bad for a 4.2 litre v8, but it's a challenge.. you know?

I think it's a very rationale thing to do, I would do the same, but when applied to Apple, you contradict yourself.

You bought a luxury car. Most people buy luxury goods because they're a sign of quality, the design is better, the car is more comfortable, powerful, or has some features that differeniate itself from the pack. Whatever the reason is, it's because the luxury product ultimately provides some value to the user that the entry level would not have.

The luxury good is often purchased because of the quality and the intention to keep something a long time. Because you intend to keep it a long time, you need something that is made of quality components and materials, maybe using metals where other, cheaper cars use plastic, or providing all-wheel drive where as cheaper cars only have front wheel drive. Maybe the sound system is better. Maybe the engine is more powerful and better designed. Maybe it can sit more people. Who knows. You get where I'm going with this.

What's different about the car from the computer? The computer is expected to last a long time, at least 5 years for most people. Like a luxury car, it's important to have durable, long lasting components such as metal enclosures, glass trackpads and the best in class batteries. Luxury features on a computer are equivalent to luxury features in a car. After all, it's something you constantly for work, yes, so why would you not want something that's a little bit nicer and a cut above the rest? As someone who appreciates the finer things of a Mercedes, I cannot wrap my head around how one can not appreciate the design, build quality, etc put into Apple products.

You get what you pay for with just about everything. Whether it's a Cadillac, a Carolla, or a Cavalier this is true. It's also true whether it's an Inspiron notebook, a MacBook Pro, or an HP business class notebook.

The whole parts thing doesn't make a lot of sense. There are a plethora (in fact, basically the exact same) for any Mac as there are for a typical PC. In a notebook, the upgradeable things are batteries, ram, hard disks, and extensions through usb. The MacBook Air has soldiered on ram and disk due to size constraints, but this situation will exist in Ultrabooks as well. The iMac and the towers are upgradeable as well. The iMac can't upgrade graphics, I will give you that, but I don't think it's a huge deal because they do include latest gen discrete graphics, so it'll be very fast for years to come.

I'm not criticizing, I just think it's interesting. Personally, I think you're afraid to try it for fear you might like it. I would bet my bottom dollar that if you went in with an open mind you'd really enjoy the experience after a week (once you settled in) and would see the value. I'm unbelievably cheap and even *I* see the value.

[Partial]

If I take a photo with my phone, I REALLY don't want it automatically synched to my computer.

You can disable it if you'd like. You taking some naughty pics Zig?? If not, why wouldn't you want your photos automatically managed instead of having to take the time to do it yourself? It just seems silly to do it yourself when you think about the state of technology. Just my opinion.

[Partial]

We'll see what happens. AAPL has to give people a good reason to switch platforms and work through a new OS learning curve, and there's not the much differentiating the two at the moment. Sammy's releasing some really nice Andoroid stuff that is being reviewed favorably in comparison to the iPhone.

Galaxy S II is a beautiful device no doubt. It's being favorably reviewed compared to the old iPhone because of the screen (The Amoled plus displays are incredible) and the speed. The new iPhone will have the 4" screen and will be even faster than the Samsung, so I expect this won't last long.

Verizon is passing on the Galaxy S II because they don't think it can hang with the iPhone 5. Having said that, they're going to get the next Nexus handset which is looking like a monster spec wise. 720P on a 4.5" screen sounds awesome to me.

There really isn't much of a learning curve with iOs.

[mraynrand]

MMrrrxxx zizzip. Flatsltapperrs!

[MJZiggy]

You can disable it if you'd like. You taking some naughty pics Zig?? If not, why wouldn't you want your photos automatically managed instead of having to take the time to do it yourself? It just seems silly to do it yourself when you think about the state of technology. Just my opinion.

It's your opinion because, as usual, you've demonstrated that you can't think beyond your own experience. Naughty pic, huh? That's the best reason your brain can come up with? In case you don't recall, I'm an amateur photographer who also sometimes shoots images for work when it's handy. Now try to figure it out.

[MJZiggy]

Galaxy S II is a beautiful device no doubt. It's being favorably reviewed compared to the old iPhone because of the screen (The Amoled plus displays are incredible) and the speed. The new iPhone will have the 4" screen and will be even faster than the Samsung, so I expect this won't last long.

Verizon is passing on the Galaxy S II because they don't think it can hang with the iPhone 5. Having said that, they're going to get the next Nexus handset which is looking like a monster spec wise. 720P on a 4.5" screen sounds awesome to me.

There really isn't much of a learning curve with iOs.

Samsung passed on the Galaxy 5 because they already have a new Samsung that they feel is about the same thing. I read a quote on that when I was investigating the Incredible. And if I can get a Nexus, what do I want an iPhone for? Again, it's a bigger, better screen than the iPhone. No need to switch and buy all new equipment.

I'm assuming it does, but does the iPhone come with a free Kindle app? Does it have free books on it? Can you get apps for free? Can you get sample music free? Like I said, I'm assuming yes, but everything else with the iphone is more expensive so I thought I'd check.

[Partial]

Samsung passed on the Galaxy 5 because they already have a new Samsung that they feel is about the same thing. I read a quote on that when I was investigating the Incredible. And if I can get a Nexus, what do I want an iPhone for? Again, it's a bigger, better screen than the iPhone. No need to switch and buy all new equipment.

I'm assuming it does, but does the iPhone come with a free Kindle app? Does it have free books on it? Can you get apps for free? Can you get sample music free? Like I said, I'm assuming yes, but everything else with the iphone is more expensive so I thought I'd check.

What is the Galaxy 5? They have a relatively new Samsung phone, the Charge, but it is fat and slow, unlike the Galaxy S II which is slim and sexy.

You want an iPhone for the user experience over the Nexus. For the entire Apple experience. From the app store, to the book store, to the music store, etc. Their infrastructure is amazing.

Bigger != better. In the case of the Nexus Prime, if the rumors are true, it will have a higher res screen than the iPhone (unless Apple throws a curve ball at us). Whenever an iPhone comes out, it basically always has the best quality display. Is there any reason to believe this trend won't continue? They'll have to be on their game because the AMOLED plus displays are really nice.

4.5" for the Nexus prime is hugh. I see that HTC is coming out with a new 4.9" screen. Where does it end? These devices are supposed to fit in your pocket. Apple only went up to 4" because they are going edge to edge with an extremely small bezel. Most typical 4.3" phones are getting too big for pockets.

Of course it has a kindle app. It's an iPhone. It has the most apps of any platform and it's the only platform where people actually download, use and buy applications. There are tons of free apps because of brilliant ad platform known as iAd, developers can still make money while giving free content away.

Nothing with the iPhone is more expensive. Recall that your Thunderbolt was released at a higher price point then the iPhone. iPhone is priced aggressively to be cheaper or as cheap as high quality handsets. They're not competing in the low end tech specs. They continue to sell the previous generation for those who want a low end solution. They're priced very aggressively there as well. Basically, they are the best deal in contract-based smart phones. Now that they intend to get into pre-paid, they will take that market by storm as well.

[MJZiggy]

I don't recall this but I'm sure you're correct. It's a common expression. I didn't intend to rip your line.



I think it's a very rationale thing to do, I would do the same, but when applied to Apple, you contradict yourself.

You bought a luxury car. Most people buy luxury goods because they're a sign of quality, the design is better, the car is more comfortable, powerful, or has some features that differeniate itself from the pack. Whatever the reason is, it's because the luxury product ultimately provides some value to the user that the entry level would not have.

The luxury good is often purchased because of the quality and the intention to keep something a long time. Because you intend to keep it a long time, you need something that is made of quality components and materials, maybe using metals where other, cheaper cars use plastic, or providing all-wheel drive where as cheaper cars only have front wheel drive. Maybe the sound system is better. Maybe the engine is more powerful and better designed. Maybe it can sit more people. Who knows. You get where I'm going with this.

What's different about the car from the computer? The computer is expected to last a long time, at least 5 years for most people. Like a luxury car, it's important to have durable, long lasting components such as metal enclosures, glass trackpads and the best in class batteries. Luxury features on a computer are equivalent to luxury features in a car. After all, it's something you constantly for work, yes, so why would you not want something that's a little bit nicer and a cut above the rest? As someone who appreciates the finer things of a Mercedes, I cannot wrap my head around how one can not appreciate the design, build quality, etc put into Apple products.

You get what you pay for with just about everything. Whether it's a Cadillac, a Carolla, or a Cavalier this is true. It's also true whether it's an Inspiron notebook, a MacBook Pro, or an HP business class notebook.

The whole parts thing doesn't make a lot of sense. There are a plethora (in fact, basically the exact same) for any Mac as there are for a typical PC. In a notebook, the upgradeable things are batteries, ram, hard disks, and extensions through usb. The MacBook Air has soldiered on ram and disk due to size constraints, but this situation will exist in Ultrabooks as well. The iMac and the towers are upgradeable as well. The iMac can't upgrade graphics, I will give you that, but I don't think it's a huge deal because they do include latest gen discrete graphics, so it'll be very fast for years to come.

I'm not criticizing, I just think it's interesting. Personally, I think you're afraid to try it for fear you might like it. I would bet my bottom dollar that if you went in with an open mind you'd really enjoy the experience after a week (once you settled in) and would see the value. I'm unbelievably cheap and even *I* see the value.

Didn't you JUST say that phones (which is the litmus test you're using to convince the rest of us of Apple's invincibility) are meant to be traded in every two years? You also don't buy six-year-old computers and keep them for 15 years. They are not designed to last that long. But a couple other questions have occurred to me that you may be able to answer. If I decide in two years that you're right and I need to buy a new phone and then sell it on ebay, who is going to buy the thing at full price when they can go and get it for the same price I did? Also, when my droid met its tragic end in the earthquake, and I was looking to find someone to see if it could be repaired, droid repair shops don't seem to exist. Why are there so many Apple repair shops?

[SkinBasket]

Why does every post that Partial's involved with turn into a clusterfuck of cell-phone argumentation?

[MJZiggy]

Why does every post that Partial's involved with turn into a clusterfuck of cell-phone argumentation?
Would you rather he were spending all his time if FYI?

[retailguy]

Would you rather he were spending all his time if FYI?

I'd rather that he spend all his time at the weightlifting forums.

[Partial]

Didn't you JUST say that phones (which is the litmus test you're using to convince the rest of us of Apple's invincibility) are meant to be traded in every two years? You also don't buy six-year-old computers and keep them for 15 years. They are not designed to last that long. But a couple other questions have occurred to me that you may be able to answer. If I decide in two years that you're right and I need to buy a new phone and then sell it on ebay, who is going to buy the thing at full price when they can go and get it for the same price I did? Also, when my droid met its tragic end in the earthquake, and I was looking to find someone to see if it could be repaired, droid repair shops don't seem to exist. Why are there so many Apple repair shops?

The're not going to buy it at full price.

They're someone who lost a phone, or have a prepaid plan, or some unique situation where they aren't interested/can't get a subsidized device.

The only Apple authorized shops are Apple stores themselves. While it isn't documented, every single person (9) that I know that has dropped an iPhone 4 and cracked the screen was given a freeby even if they didn't have AppleCare. Talk about service! This is why Apple is #1 ranked in customer service and customer satisfaction.

[retailguy]

I don't recall this but I'm sure you're correct. It's a common expression. I didn't intend to rip your line.

Uhuh. Sure. whatever. I could care less. I found it funny.




I think it's a very rationale thing to do, I would do the same, but when applied to Apple, you contradict yourself.

No, I really don't. There are six pages of posting in this thread where I have been very clear as to why I buy what I buy. I'm not buying "quality", I'm shopping for "value, combined with reliability". That's the part you don't get. Apple offers better than average reliability, but I think they offer shitty value. They always have, and I believe they always will. Please note, I probably define VALUE differently than you do.




You bought a luxury car. Most people buy luxury goods because they're a sign of quality, the design is better, the car is more comfortable, powerful, or has some features that differeniate itself from the pack. Whatever the reason is, it's because the luxury product ultimately provides some value to the user that the entry level would not have.

I'm sure some folks buy like this, I bought it because I was seeking reliability, and price was important. It was priced more competitively than a comparable Toyota or Honda, or I'd own one of them. You do not understand me. You haven't spent 5 minutes "LISTENING" to what I'm telling you, and you have NO IDEA why I buy what I buy.




The luxury good is often purchased because of the quality and the intention to keep something a long time. Because you intend to keep it a long time, you need something that is made of quality components and materials, maybe using metals where other, cheaper cars use plastic, or providing all-wheel drive where as cheaper cars only have front wheel drive. Maybe the sound system is better. Maybe the engine is more powerful and better designed. Maybe it can sit more people. Who knows. You get where I'm going with this.

I'm sure that your broke finance professor understands this, but I don't. None of these things were really important to me. I searched for six months for the cheapest Eclass I could find. I didn't care what color it was, how many miles were on it, what options it had or if it even had a radio. I wanted the V8 engine, under 80k miles, and a price to value rating that was best in its class. I walked away from 10 vehicles before I purchased this one. I KNEW it would be reliable, because I knew the odds were in my favor. I knew exactly what I wanted it to do, and I knew exactly what I needed to do that.

My only splurge was the V8 engine. Seriously. The six cylinder had slightly better reliability, but I'd had one in my last eclass and I didn't really like it.



What's different about the car from the computer? The computer is expected to last a long time, at least 5 years for most people. Like a luxury car, it's important to have durable, long lasting components such as metal enclosures, glass trackpads and the best in class batteries. Luxury features on a computer are equivalent to luxury features in a car. After all, it's something you constantly for work, yes, so why would you not want something that's a little bit nicer and a cut above the rest? As someone who appreciates the finer things of a Mercedes, I cannot wrap my head around how one can not appreciate the design, build quality, etc put into Apple products.

Plenty is different. A computer/phone/tablet are CONSUMABLE GOODS. They have a finite life and little remaining value once purchased. Technology changes overnight and sometimes makes the good obsolete. This is NOT TRUE with regard to vehicles. A 1969 Rambler still can serve a useful function. Not so true of a TRS-80. Yes, it still works, but unless you need to do some basic programming, it isn't very useful today. A rambler will still get me to the grocery store and to work.

My gripe with apple has nothing to do with the "quality", it has everything to do with the BUSINESS MODEL. The proprietary software (Itunes), lack of flash support, proprietary cables, and lack of upgradeability ruin it for me. They make the product LESS VALUABLE to me. I want to buy a $4 HDMI cable from the vendor of my choice instead of a $35 proprietary cable that I have to buy from Apple. I want to use Windows explorer to load my MP3 player, and I never, ever want to see another copy of ITUNES.

Talking with the apple nazi's is also a turnoff. Listening to you guys rant on and on about some feature that I'll never use, or worse, exists on everything else is a fucking riot. I'm so tired of it, if I owned a gun..... I am not kidding. None of you have a damn brain.




You get what you pay for with just about everything. Whether it's a Cadillac, a Carolla, or a Cavalier this is true. It's also true whether it's an Inspiron notebook, a MacBook Pro, or an HP business class notebook.

This is the crap idiots parrot on about over and over and over. It isn't TRUE. Plenty of products have different VALUE and USE associated with them. You babble on and on about 90k apps for the IPAD. Is it true? YES. Who the fuck needs 90k apps? I bet 90% of IPAD users don't have 50 apps loaded. What value is really associated with 90k apps? Is it reality or "perception". Marketing says, "what am I missing if I don't have 90k apps"? retailguy says "probably not much". So, I'm not willing to pay for that. It has NO value to me.

I have a blackberry. I have access to thousands of apps. I use 15. Maybe. Last time I checked for a weather app, I had the choice of at least 50, I need ONE. I loaded an app to use my blackberry as a flashlight. It was free. There were DOZENS of others. I did not need them once I picked ONE.

If you'd stop being swayed by marketing and analyze what you want the product to do, you'd find that plenty of differences exist in the marketplace. Sometimes the absolute cheapest product in the market will meet your needs, despite it's flaws. But you believe the marketing and as you've said "the cool factor" is important to you. It simply is NOT to me in most cases.



The whole parts thing doesn't make a lot of sense. There are a plethora (in fact, basically the exact same) for any Mac as there are for a typical PC. In a notebook, the upgradeable things are batteries, ram, hard disks, and extensions through usb. The MacBook Air has soldiered on ram and disk due to size constraints, but this situation will exist in Ultrabooks as well. The iMac and the towers are upgradeable as well. The iMac can't upgrade graphics, I will give you that, but I don't think it's a huge deal because they do include latest gen discrete graphics, so it'll be very fast for years to come.

If I own an IPAD and I want to stream movies to my TV, I must buy a proprietary cable from Apple to do it, or from a licensed 3rd party. My android tablet uses a market standard HDMI cable that I can buy from monoprice for $4. Or probably less from some guy in Hong Kong. When I load music on it, I am not required to use ITUNES. When I want to upgrade memory, I can use crucial.com. My "requirement" to use the vendor I purchased the product from largely ceases when I buy any piece of computer equipment EXCEPT apple. Are there exceptions? Sure. But not many of them.

I don't upgrade computers any more. I throw them away. So do most of the rest of us. That's a shame, but it's the way it works. THEY have designed it that way. In the last 3 years I have upgraded exactly ONE computer, other than memory sticks, and MAYBE one hard drive.



I'm not criticizing, I just think it's interesting.

Are you fucking insane? criticism is all you do. How many times have you inferred in just this thread that we're "wrong" because we don't agree with you? Good grief, you cannot be that stupid as to believe this. This is another of your stupid games where you get all elitist and "above it all", because you are so naive that you think you're "right" as if there is such a thing.



Personally, I think you're afraid to try it for fear you might like it. I would bet my bottom dollar that if you went in with an open mind you'd really enjoy the experience after a week (once you settled in) and would see the value. I'm unbelievably cheap and even *I* see the value.

I have two IPAD 1's in the house. I absolutely despise the fucking things. I know how to use them, I had to teach my girls how to operate them. I told them, that any accessories that they want are on them. They've priced them and have bought exactly ZERO. They love my wife's new Acer. They are beginning to understand "trendy". And they are beginning to like the IPAD's less.... That's because they are still teachable. That's about the only difference between them and you. They listen. You've forgotten that God gave you two ears and one mouth. So you have no idea why I don't buy Apple and you never will understand it.

[Partial]

I can buy an iPhone cable for about a dollar on eBay. Not an issues. Same with monoprice. The HDMI is good, I agree. Apple is pushing for their Airplay technology to stream from a tablet to the TV. Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I'd rather not use a cable then use one.

The flash support thing is retarded. Microsoft isn't supporting flash either in Windows 8. Sorry, but flash is dead. It's slow, shitty, doesn't support multitouch well. I develop flash code as a primary function of my job and I even think the tech is garbage. It runs like shit on absolutely everything that is not Windows.

I re-iterate that anything you can update on a PC you can update on a Mac using a third party store. I purchase all of my ram, etc on slickdeals. Not mac ram, just regular ram. Not mac hard disks, just regular hard disks. Not mac usb components, just regular usb components.

Apple users have bigger brains that Windows users. Which is why we on average have more sex, make more money, etc. Really, it's beginning to sound like you don't have a brain. You are so factually incorrect about so much stuff. You've had propaganda drilled into your head for years.

Consumer electronics, especially Apple computers, do hold their value. The bottom dollar Dell machine won't. I buy a new Mac laptop every year. I pretty much break even with the student discounts.

Your kids are mentally challenged if they cannot operate an iPad. I know a 90 something year old that can't use a computer, but they sure as heck can point their finger at a 32x32 icon and tap it. Perhaps you should stop "teaching" them and let them learn on their own.

Clearly we have different opinions of value. To me, if I'm spending hours on something every day, I want those hours to be as pleasant as possible. Maybe you are just too cheap to appreciate good user experience. It's quite clear to me that you're far too narrow minded to be innovative or do anything unique anyway, so..

Beyond that, an Apple computer has more value than a Windows computer inherently because it can run both Mac OS and Windows.

http://www.consumersearch.com/apple-laptops/mac-vs-pc

[Zool]

Where's David Byrne when you need him?

Oh here his is now.


http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljq5mpiT201qihn7io1_500.gif

[SkinBasket]

Partial should be banned for ruining my thread.

Madtwan, how about getting off your big brown buns and letting us rename the titles of threads so this can assume it's true role as "SkinBasket's Home For Homosexuals - Part 2"

[retailguy]

Where's David Byrne when you need him?

Oh here his is now.


http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljq5mpiT201qihn7io1_500.gif

Same as it ever was.

S-S-S-Same as it ev-er was.

Same as it ever was.

[Zool]

Partial should be banned for ruining my thread.

Madtwan, how about getting off your big brown buns and letting us rename the titles of threads so this can assume it's true role as "SkinBasket's Home For Homosexuals - Part 2"

Partial puts the STD in stud, now all he needs in U.

[Partial]

Partial puts the STD in stud, now all he needs in U.

That's fantastic!

[Partial]

http://www.thestreet.com/r/ratings/reports/detail/AAPL.html

[3irty1]

Apple users have bigger brains that Windows users. Which is why we on average have more sex, make more money, etc. Really, it's beginning to sound like you don't have a brain. You are so factually incorrect about so much stuff. You've had propaganda drilled into your head for years.


I wasn't going to add to the threadjacking in here but I just have to respond to this gem. I love how you think Apple is the cause of all this and not the effect. Nobody should be shocked that things that cost more are purchased by people with more money. I had to Google to find out what you were talking about with the "more sex" statement and this is what I found that I'm assuming you're talking about:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/gadget-sex/

Its study shows that iphone users have nearly twice as many sexual partners by age 30 than android users. Not twice as much sex, twice as many partners. Hilarious that this could be construed as a sign of better judgement.

I get the appeal of Apple products, I really do. They make designer gizmos. When you see a laptop in a movie its never a Dell. They are devices that double as fashion accessories. Choosing the brand gives one a feeling that they are elite, same as the people who choose Target over Wal-Mart, or a Prius over a Ford. There is nothing wrong with the products, its everything that comes with it that make me sick. I want a phone, not a lifestyle. They come with a sticker for your car! When I see a guy who looks like me that is using a mac or an iphone do I assume good things? No. I think to myself "That guy is either gay, or is a smug asshole. He probably goes to starbucks, drives a prius, likes soccer, and voted for Obama."

Ever been to the Whiskey Bar in cathedral square? Its got a lot going for it including a manly name, and a great setup. Only problem is that somewhere along the way, intolerable spray-tanned douchbags with faux-hawks decided to make it their place to drink vodka and date rape women. I feel so bad for the owner who probably thought their higher prices and badass selection of American booze would lead to a clientele of gentlemen with beards sipping cowboy juice. The Whiskey Bar tragedy is exactly what happened with Apple. The costumers wrecked it for me.

That said, I fully understand that I'm not in Apple's targeted demographic as a linux-wielding lumberjack. Over half of the population is women+gay guys and those people buy hip and trendy things so Apple as a business won't run out of customers.

[SkinBasket]

Over half of the population is women+gay guys and those people buy hip and trendy things so Apple as a business won't run out of customers.

Nicely done sir. Especially with the Whiskey Bar juxtaposition.

[retailguy]

I wasn't going to add to the threadjacking in here but I just have to respond to this gem. I love how you think Apple is the cause of all this and not the effect. Nobody should be shocked that things that cost more are purchased by people with more money. I had to Google to find out what you were talking about with the "more sex" statement and this is what I found that I'm assuming you're talking about:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/gadget-sex/

Its study shows that iphone users have nearly twice as many sexual partners by age 30 than android users. Not twice as much sex, twice as many partners. Hilarious that this could be construed as a sign of better judgement.

I get the appeal of Apple products, I really do. They make designer gizmos. When you see a laptop in a movie its never a Dell. They are devices that double as fashion accessories. Choosing the brand gives one a feeling that they are elite, same as the people who choose Target over Wal-Mart, or a Prius over a Ford. There is nothing wrong with the products, its everything that comes with it that make me sick. I want a phone, not a lifestyle. They come with a sticker for your car! When I see a guy who looks like me that is using a mac or an iphone do I assume good things? No. I think to myself "That guy is either gay, or is a smug asshole. He probably goes to starbucks, drives a prius, likes soccer, and voted for Obama."

Ever been to the Whiskey Bar in cathedral square? Its got a lot going for it including a manly name, and a great setup. Only problem is that somewhere along the way, intolerable spray-tanned douchbags with faux-hawks decided to make it their place to drink vodka and date rape women. I feel so bad for the owner who probably thought their higher prices and badass selection of American booze would lead to a clientele of gentlemen with beards sipping cowboy juice. The Whiskey Bar tragedy is exactly what happened with Apple. The costumers wrecked it for me.

That said, I fully understand that I'm not in Apple's targeted demographic as a linux-wielding lumberjack. Over half of the population is women+gay guys and those people buy hip and trendy things so Apple as a business won't run out of customers.

Glad to read that some young folks have brains and common sense. Well said.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, now I know what to get Harlan for Christmas.

[Partial]

All stats point to iPhone users making more money, get laid more, etc. Not saiyng theres a correlation, but one could argue that the douchebaggery of guys like RG and Ziggy is not likely to get you laid, where as my smooth talking gets me laid constantly!


I get the appeal of Apple products, I really do. They make designer gizmos. When you see a laptop in a movie its never a Dell. They are devices that double as fashion accessories. Choosing the brand gives one a feeling that they are elite, same as the people who choose Target over Wal-Mart, or a Prius over a Ford. There is nothing wrong with the products, its everything that comes with it that make me sick. I want a phone, not a lifestyle. They come with a sticker for your car! When I see a guy who looks like me that is using a mac or an iphone do I assume good things? No. I think to myself "That guy is either gay, or is a smug asshole. He probably goes to starbucks, drives a prius, likes soccer, and voted for Obama."

That's a really judgmental statement. I'm not smug, I'm quite cheap. I never go to Starbucks, I drive an SUV, I loathe soccer, and I didn't vote for Obama. Boom, that just throws your argument out the window. Sure, some hipsters use Macs... a lot of hipsters also use linux because it's cool and counter-culture.

I could just as easily say people who still enjoy using Windows are southern redneck hicks who drive Suburbans, don't understand basic ecnomics, enjoy sleeping with their sister, and drive pickup trucks.

Both are moronic, stupid statements to make.


Ever been to the Whiskey Bar in cathedral square? Its got a lot going for it including a manly name, and a great setup. Only problem is that somewhere along the way, intolerable spray-tanned douchbags with faux-hawks decided to make it their place to drink vodka and date rape women. I feel so bad for the owner who probably thought their higher prices and badass selection of American booze would lead to a clientele of gentlemen with beards sipping cowboy juice. The Whiskey Bar tragedy is exactly what happened with Apple. The costumers wrecked it for me.

Whiskey bar is a fine place. Never had any problems with it. Too many frat boys who use Windows there. The typical mac user is getting pussy by the truckload, so they don't need to rape when it's at home waiting for them.



That said, I fully understand that I'm not in Apple's targeted demographic as a linux-wielding lumberjack. Over half of the population is women+gay guys and those people buy hip and trendy things so Apple as a business won't run out of customers.

The average iPhone user is a male in there 30s earning over 80k. I do agree the women enjoy iPhones (beautiful UI and wonderful device). I can't explain the gays, but my two gay friends do have iPhone 4s LOL. They don't have it because they're gay, they have it because they're smart.

[MJZiggy]

No, really. They have it because they're gay. Just go over to Dupont Circle and look around. By the way, gay men also tend to make a lot of money because they don't have family priorities messing with their careers. I've decided that you're really not this stupid. You're just trying to see how idiotic you can make us believe you are. By the way. You don't fit the profile you describe because you don't even have a fucking iPhone. You don't know the user experience because you don't have the user experience except vicariously. And if every one of your friends has broken their crystal just by dropping their phone, then they're shit devices. I've dropped both my Droid and HTC a few times with no ill effect whatsoever. What kind of cheap crap are you trying to sell us?

You are what is annoying about Apple and why the brand will eventually fail. The fact of a trend is that the appeal is that not everyone has it. As soon as the market hits critical mass, the "cool" trendy appeal wears off and people drop it for the next new thing. But you won't listen to that just like you won't listen to anyone else who might have a criticism about your precious baby, even though the whole company damn near tanked once already. That's fine, but if you're not willing to look at your stock objectively, you will eventually lose your shirt. And that's fine. It's your money to lose.

[SkinBasket]

You don't fit the profile you describe because you don't even have a fucking iPhone.

So what you're saying is that Partial doesn't have sex at all.

[Scott Campbell]

So I guess if you desperately need to get laid, buy the iPhone. I need to get laid less, so I think I'll stick with the Android.

[Scott Campbell]

You are what is annoying about Apple and why the brand will eventually fail.


I actually buy that as a potential company issue. People don't want products that make other people look at them like douchebags.

[MJZiggy]

So what you're saying is that Partial doesn't have sex at all.

His logic, not mine...

[Partial]

So what you're saying is that Partial doesn't have sex at all.

Not as much as I'd like.


No, really. They have it because they're gay. Just go over to Dupont Circle and look around. By the way, gay men also tend to make a lot of money because they don't have family priorities messing with their careers.

Let's dissect this sentence by sentence... Homosexuals have iPhones because they're gay. What the hell? How judgmental can you be? What is the rationalization for this?

Gay men tend to make more money because they don't have families? Really? That's what you're going with? Really? Maybe you should stop trying to rationalize your laziness. If you've got swagger you've got swagger. Simple as that.


I've decided that you're really not this stupid. You're just trying to see how idiotic you can make us believe you are. By the way. You don't fit the profile you describe because you don't even have a fucking iPhone. You don't know the user experience because you don't have the user experience except vicariously. And if every one of your friends has broken their crystal just by dropping their phone, then they're shit devices. I've dropped both my Droid and HTC a few times with no ill effect whatsoever. What kind of cheap crap are you trying to sell us?

My work phone is an iPhone. I also have an iPod touch, and an iPad from my company. Child please.

iPhones have the highest quality glass available. Gorilla glass. You said it yourself that your phone broke from a fall, so STFU.

I would pit my intelligence and certainly knowledge of consumer electronics against yours any day of the week. I'm a leading software developer. What do you do besides pretending to know about electronics and failing to form a compelling argument?


You are what is annoying about Apple and why the brand will eventually fail. The fact of a trend is that the appeal is that not everyone has it. As soon as the market hits critical mass, the "cool" trendy appeal wears off and people drop it for the next new thing. But you won't listen to that just like you won't listen to anyone else who might have a criticism about your precious baby, even though the whole company damn near tanked once already. That's fine, but if you're not willing to look at your stock objectively, you will eventually lose your shirt. And that's fine. It's your money to lose.

People don't buy Apple because it's cool. They buy it because of the user experience. By the time everyone has the current thing, Apple will have the next thing out. By now, the iPhone is way beyond cool and is now an essential device in so many peoples lives. Look at fortune 500 adoption. 95% are phasing in the iPhone for employee smart phones. Bye-bye RIM. Bye-bye Android.