Comparing the 1997 and 2011 Packers

[superfan]

Both the 1997 and 2011 Packer teams follow Super Bowl championship teams. How do these two teams compare? Is this year's team better than the 1997 team, and does this team have a chance to equal or better the end result of the 1997 team?

1997 key players/backups

OFFENSE
QB - Brett Favre, Steve Bono, Doug Pederson
RB - Dorsey Levens, Aaron Hayden, William Henderson, Travis Jervey, Chris Darkins
WR - Antonio Freeman, Robert Brooks, Derrick Mayes, Don Beebe, Bill Schroeder, Terry Mickens
TE - Mark Chmura, Jeff Thomason, Tyrone Davis
OL - Earl Dotson, Ross Verba, John Michels, Adam Timmerman, Aaron Taylor, Frank Winters, Jeff Dellenbach, Marco Rivera

DEFENSE

DE - Reggie White, Gabe Wilkins, Keith McKenzie
DT - Gilbert Brown, Santana Dotson, Darius Holland, Paul Frase
LB - Bernardo Harris, Brian Williams, Seth Joyner, Wayne Simmons, Lamont Hollinquest, George Koonce
DB - LeRoy Butler, Eugene Robinson, Tyrone Williams, Doug Evans, Roderick Mullen, Mike Prior, Darren Sharpet

K - Ryan Longwell
P - Craig Hentrich
PR - Bill Schroeder
KR - Bill Schroeder
LS - Rob Davis

[gbgary]

the average age between those teams is night and day i bet. the dl of the old team is much better than the new. the ol of the old is probably a tad better too.

[vince]

The 97 team was not as strong as the 96 team at TE, WR or DE, and had a coach who was pining for more authority, which I thought at the time was a distraction for the team. Wolf's free agent pick-ups from the 96 team other than Reggie White were basically gone in 97. Desmond Howard had a huge impact down the stretch in 96.

The 2011 team is stronger at a number of positions over the 2010 team, although the 2010 team can't be considered to be on the same level talent-wise as the 96 team was. The organization has stability throughout the coaching staff as well.

Young quarterbacks at the top of their profession, elite pass rushers, elite offensive playcallers and defensive coordinators, and strong leadership are obivious and important similarities between the teams.

The 2011 team has every reason to be considered a Super Bowl calibre team this year.

[Guiness]

The only player still active is Ryan Longwell.

[Brando19]

What happened to Desmond Howard after the Super Bowl win?

[Pugger]

Didn't Howard go to another team to be more of a WR than just a returner? I can't recall what team it was but he didn't have a lot of success and now he's on ESPN's college pregame show.

Yes, the main difference between the 2 teams is the 2011 team is in its prime or younger and the coaching staff is lot more stable. I'm with vince, I think Holmgren wanting to be the GM was a distraction. The working relationship between TT and MM is so much healthier than it was with Wolf and MH.

[Fred's Slacks]

What happened to Desmond Howard after the Super Bowl win?

Signed by Oakland. Career quickly withered.

[Fred's Slacks]

I think he actually played quite a few more seasons, he just was never again the SB MVP caliber player. I recall he spent some time in Detriot as well.

[Pugger]

I think he actually played quite a few more seasons, he just was never again the SB MVP caliber player. I recall he spent some time in Detriot as well.

Thanks, I couldn't remember... :grin:

[pbmax]

QB: Push, though Flynn might be better than Bono. Tough to say, Bono had a lot of starts by this point of his career.

RB: 1997. Levens in his prime year and while Grant or Starks could be said to be close as a runner Levens was, neither has his hands (or Hendersen's). But the 97 team did not have two starting RBs. Kuhn is closer to Levens than Hendersen as FB. Edge 97, but mainly limited to traditional running packages.

WR: 2010. Brooks was not the same player after the injury and it could be said his new contract cost the Packers substantial cap room. 2010 has the big edge here.

TE: 2010 Packers. Davis had talent but also perennially injured. Chmura was complete, but since the 2010 Packers use these guys as FBs and often keep more than one on the field, the 2010 Packers can do more. Crabtree blocks well, Quarless is above average and Finley is willing. Simply more weapons here, though no one complete Chmura TE yet. Thomason could do a Chmura impression if you could get a defense to focus its efforts elsewhere.

OL: Push, very close. 97 Left Tackle still a hot mess until Verba took the job over though he was not a long term answer at the position. Center a wash. Sitton versus Timmerman would be something I would pay to watch. Taylor over Lang. As for Dotson v. Bulaga; I cannot be forced to choose among my favorites. Left Tackle hole would normally give the edge to 2010, but Rivera and Dellenbach (forget Michels) over Newhouse, Sherrod and EDS. However, with time, Sherrod could be remembered as favorably as Rivera, so with complete hindsight, you might call this for 2010.

DE: 1997. 3-4 versus 4-3. Sticking strictly with DE, Reggie winds this in a blowout over 2010, but Matthews would make it much closer.

DT: 2010. Love Gilbert and Dotson, but Raji and Pickett are very, very good inside.

LB: 2010. Harris was good in middle but wasn't Fred Strickland in run support. Williams had weird career for a good player, he started off very slowly (2 years to develop, wasn't it?) and then faded quickly. Quite honestly, I don't remember him from 1997 as either good or bad. Simmons left in middle of the year and was replaced by Seth Joyner. Disaster. 2010 has no true 4-3 MLB (though Bishop could probably convert), but the scheme doesn't call for one. Even with ROLB open, I like the new LBs better (read: Matthews). If it was 96 versus 2010, then Simmons wins it for the oldsters because he would reach through my computer to hit me otherwise.

DB: Push. Like the 96 safties (Robinson over Burnett for now). Like the 2010 CBs (Woodson/Tramontana/Shields/BUUUSSCHH/Lee) over 96 collection (Evans/Williams/Sharper/Mullen). Craig Newsome would have spoiled it for 2010 and Tyrone Williams was very, very good in press coverage, esp. deep.

K: 1997. Longwell though I have long grown tired of his as spokesman for the fraternity of misunderstood kickers.

Returners: 2010. Cobb salad. Though I seem to remember that Schroeder's speed could occasionally pay off in a decent kick return (avg in 97 was 23.4) and his punt return avg (10.4) is nothing to sneeze at. Closer than I expected.

LS: Push. Most important position on team outside of QB. Both were very Goode.

[Iron Mike]

http://losersbracket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/clay-matthews-kill-tag.jpg

[red]

man, i never realized how much talent was lost between those 2 seasons

sean jones is the big one that sticks out to me

[superfan]

the average age between those teams is night and day i bet.

A lot closer than you would think, at least for the starters.

Average age of starting players on offense/defense/kickers:

1997 - 27.593
2011 - 27.375

[sheepshead]

Mike Holmgren.

[superfan]

It's difficult to come up with a comparison of these teams off the cuff, as we readily remember the careers of the 1997 players, and not necessarily how well they played that year.

Longwell, Rivera, Verba, Schroeder, and Sharper were all rookies on that team. Verba started 11 games, Schroeder started 1 game, Rivera and Sharper were backups and special teams contributors.

What happened to Craig Newsome that year? Only played in one game. Did he suffer a season ending injury?

[Brandon494]

Both the 1997 and 2011 Packer teams follow Super Bowl championship teams. How do these two teams compare? Is this year's team better than the 1997 team, and does this team have a chance to equal or better the end result of the 1997 team?

1997 key players/backups

OFFENSE
QB - Brett Favre, Steve Bono, Doug Pederson
RB - Dorsey Levens, Aaron Hayden, William Henderson, Travis Jervey, Chris Darkins
WR - Antonio Freeman, Robert Brooks, Derrick Mayes, Don Beebe, Bill Schroeder, Terry Mickens
TE - Mark Chmura, Jeff Thomason, Tyrone Davis
OL - Earl Dotson, Ross Verba, John Michels, Adam Timmerman, Aaron Taylor, Frank Winters, Jeff Dellenbach, Marco Rivera

DEFENSE

DE - Reggie White, Gabe Wilkins, Keith McKenzie
DT - Gilbert Brown, Santana Dotson, Darius Holland, Paul Frase
LB - Bernardo Harris, Brian Williams, Seth Joyner, Wayne Simmons, Lamont Hollinquest, George Koonce
DB - LeRoy Butler, Eugene Robinson, Tyrone Williams, Doug Evans, Roderick Mullen, Mike Prior, Darren Sharpet

K - Ryan Longwell
P - Craig Hentrich
PR - Bill Schroeder
KR - Bill Schroeder
LS - Rob Davis

I was only 10 at the time but damn I miss watching this team play.

[Tony Oday]

Verba sucks at life damn wife beater.

[DonHutson]

Thanks, I couldn't remember... :grin:

He also had an encore season in Green Bay in 1999. Clearly a less memorable one.

[pbmax]

It's difficult to come up with a comparison of these teams off the cuff, as we readily remember the careers of the 1997 players, and not necessarily how well they played that year.

Longwell, Rivera, Verba, Schroeder, and Sharper were all rookies on that team. Verba started 11 games, Schroeder started 1 game, Rivera and Sharper were backups and special teams contributors.

What happened to Craig Newsome that year? Only played in one game. Did he suffer a season ending injury?

Knee injury cost him a year and his already average speed

[Fritz]

man, i never realized how much talent was lost between those 2 seasons

sean jones is the big one that sticks out to me

I agree here. I think his loss hit the team far more than they expected. I think Ron Wolf's ego might have cost the team on this one, just as I think Mike Holmgren's ego cost the team in 97. By the time they hit the playoffs the talk was all over about him going to Seattle, and Holmgren didn't really handle it well. It seemed clear he wanted out, wanted more authority, and it appeared his relationship with Wolf suffered as a result. Thus, when speaking to the media, Holmgren was not as persuasive as he might've been that his heart was still in Green Bay.

[pbmax]

I agree here. I think his loss hit the team far more than they expected. I think Ron Wolf's ego might have cost the team on this one, just as I think Mike Holmgren's ego cost the team in 97. By the time they hit the playoffs the talk was all over about him going to Seattle, and Holmgren didn't really handle it well. It seemed clear he wanted out, wanted more authority, and it appeared his relationship with Wolf suffered as a result. Thus, when speaking to the media, Holmgren was not as persuasive as he might've been that his heart was still in Green Bay.

The Seattle stuff didn't get huge attention until Holmgren openly entertained it during Super Bowl hype week.

Then it seemed to languish on for the entire 1998 season, including Holmgren's vindictive use of Levens in the opener after his holdout until 25 was destroyed late in the game. 1997 was tough, 98 was a nightmare.

[Patler]

K: 1997. Longwell though I have long grown tired of his as spokesman for the fraternity of misunderstood kickers.

I'm also a Longwell fan in some respects, but choosing between Longwell of 1997 or Crosby of 2011, I'll take Crosby. As a rookie, Longwell was very limited in range. They barely tried any FGs over 40 yards with him that year because he was very inconsistent. He was only an 80% kicker like Crosby, but from much shorter distances than Crosby. After '97 he completely changed his approach, and eliminated a step. His accuracy improved significantly, especially from longer distances.

If choosing between them at similar stages of their careers, 5th year, I would go with Longwell; but not Longwell of '97 vs. Crosby of 2011. Longwell became a different kicker after '97.

[smuggler]

Crosby is also better now at onside kicks than Longwell ever was.

[pbmax]

I'm also a Longwell fan in some respects, but choosing between Longwell of 1997 or Crosby of 2011, I'll take Crosby. As a rookie, Longwell was very limited in range. They barely tried any FGs over 40 yards with him that year because he was very inconsistent. He was only an 80% kicker like Crosby, but from much shorter distances than Crosby. After '97 he completely changed his approach, and eliminated a step. His accuracy improved significantly, especially from longer distances.

If choosing between them at similar stages of their careers, 5th year, I would go with Longwell; but not Longwell of '97 vs. Crosby of 2011. Longwell became a different kicker after '97.

A very fair point. I forgot it was his rookie year.

[gbgary]

A lot closer than you would think, at least for the starters.

Average age of starting players on offense/defense/kickers:

1997 - 27.593
2011 - 27.375

wow. whodathunkit?

[hoosier]

Sean Jones may have been a little more reliable than Gabe Wilkins, and Wilkins's rep really took a hit when he got hurt in the SB. But ae t that point in their careers Wilkins was unquestionably more talented. Remember his Dilfer-hurdling pick-6 against Tampa Bay that saved the Packers early in the season when the Bucs were threatening to run away with the division. Jones was dinged up in '96 and his overall production was not appreciably better than Wilkins in 97. If Wilkins had returned in the SB I think we would be saying that Jones-->Wilkins was a slight upgrade.

The real loss between 96 and 97 was, as Vince suggested, the departure of Desmond Howard.

[Patler]

man, i never realized how much talent was lost between those 2 seasons

sean jones is the big one that sticks out to meI agree here. I think his loss hit the team far more than they expected. I think Ron Wolf's ego might have cost the team on this one, just as I think Mike Holmgren's ego cost the team in 97.

You are blaming Wolf for the loss of Jones???? Why? He was 35 years old, and I don't believe he played for anyone else after the Packers. I'm not 100% sure, but I think he simply retired, didn't he? Something to do with an off-season injury and his age.

[red]

i wasn't, don't go lumping me in with fritz and all his crazy over the top ideas

[MJZiggy]

i wasn't, don't go lumping me in with fritz and all his crazy over the top ideas

Don't his crazy over the top ideas usually revolve around sex? I thought you'd want to be lumped in with that.

[Patler]

i wasn't, don't go lumping me in with fritz and all his crazy over the top ideas

My remark wasn't directed at you, because you didn't say it. Fritz did. I included your quote in my post only because it was part of Fritz's post (he quoted you), and without it you can't tell what Fritz is talking about.

[Patler]

i wasn't, don't go lumping me in with fritz and all his crazy over the top ideasMy remark wasn't directed at you, because you didn't say it. Fritz did. I included your quote in my post only because it was part of Fritz's post (he quoted you), and without it you can't tell what Fritz is talking about.

I have changed the format of the post. Does that relieve you concerns?

[red]

no it doesn't. where the hell is snoopy?

how am i suppose to know who i'm yelling at without pictures?

[pbmax]

Wolf has stated that he could have tried harder to resign/convince Jones to return; however, at his current rate of confession, Wolf has admitted fault in each Packer personnel decision going back to Week 3 of 1986.

I agree with hoosier. Jones in 96 was solid against the run and had little pass rush left. His game might have helped versus Broncos, certainly better than Darius Holland. But he would have been depth, not a step above Wilkins.

But more than Desmond, the biggest loss was Holmgren convincing Wolf they could no longer afford to carry Simmons at LB.

[Guiness]

But more than Desmond, the biggest loss was Holmgren convincing Wolf they could no longer afford to carry Simmons at LB.

?

What's this about? I've never heard anything about this.

[Patler]

no it doesn't. where the hell is snoopy?

how am i suppose to know who i'm yelling at without pictures?

Snoopy is gone from Packerrats.
I do most of my football posts elsewhere, and I took Snoopy there.
I don't come to the Packer board here that much anymore.

[Patler]

http://articles.philly.com/1997-05-07/sports/25565005_1_oxygen-canisters-settlement-valujet-crash


Green Bay Packers defensive end Sean Jones retired yesterday after being told he would be a reserve.
The Packers decided fourth-year pro Gabe Wilkins was ready to start at right defensive end next season.
Jones, a 13-year veteran, will join former teammate Keith Jackson in the broadcasting booth for Turner Network Television.
``My decision was made a lot easier because of an injury I had a couple of weeks ago, and broadcasting is a viable option for me,'' Jones said. ``I messed up my back and, quite honestly, I wouldn't have been able to pass the physical anyhow.''

[pbmax]

http://articles.philly.com/1997-05-07/sports/25565005_1_oxygen-canisters-settlement-valujet-crash

Sorry to hear you have gone elsewhere.

The story says he was informed he would be a reserve, so there must have been some level of interest. And Wolf has stated for the record he could have done more to convince him to return. The back injury might have hurt him on a physical, but wouldn't necessarily have kept him from camp or playing that season. Of course, its possible Wolf doesn't remember the back injury.

[Patler]

The story says he was informed he would be a reserve, so there must have been some level of interest. And Wolf has stated for the record he could have done more to convince him to return. The back injury might have hurt him on a physical, but wouldn't necessarily have kept him from camp or playing that season. Of course, its possible Wolf doesn't remember the back injury.

If the back injury was no big deal, and if Jones was still interested in playing football, he could have found somewhere else to play, probably with another playoff caliber team. He didn't though.

More than anything Wolf did or didn't do, I think Jones felt it was time to leave the game, or maybe his body told him it was time to leave.

[hoosier]

Wolf has stated that he could have tried harder to resign/convince Jones to return; however, at his current rate of confession, Wolf has admitted fault in each Packer personnel decision going back to Week 3 of 1986.

I agree with hoosier. Jones in 96 was solid against the run and had little pass rush left. His game might have helped versus Broncos, certainly better than Darius Holland. But he would have been depth, not a step above Wilkins.

But more than Desmond, the biggest loss was Holmgren convincing Wolf they could no longer afford to carry Simmons at LB.

I don't have a clear recollection of what caused Holmy/Wolf to trade Simmons. Had his play declined or was it erratic behavior? Whatever it was, it is safe to say they overestimated what Seth Joyner had left at that point.

[red]

Snoopy is gone from Packerrats.
I do most of my football posts elsewhere, and I took Snoopy there.
I don't come to the Packer board here that much anymore.

blows pretty hard

[MJZiggy]

blows pretty hard

+1

[pbmax]

I don't have a clear recollection of what caused Holmy/Wolf to trade Simmons. Had his play declined or was it erratic behavior? Whatever it was, it is safe to say they overestimated what Seth Joyner had left at that point.

It was never reported as straight fact at the time that I recall. Distraction to the team or conduct detrimental to the team were the phrases bandied about, best move for all concerned, though all this should be taken with a grain of salt as my recall on this is vague.

Later, reporters would refer to this move as something Holmgren felt he had to do and they seem to give credence to his concerns. So Simmons seems to have been some sort of wildcard in the locker room and perhaps a pot stirrer, but I haven't read the specific chain of events.

[hoosier]

It was never reported as straight fact at the time that I recall. Distraction to the team or conduct detrimental to the team were the phrases bandied about, best move for all concerned, though all this should be taken with a grain of salt as my recall on this is vague.

Later, reporters would refer to this move as something Holmgren felt he had to do and they seem to give credence to his concerns. So Simmons seems to have been some sort of wildcard in the locker room and perhaps a pot stirrer, but I haven't read the specific chain of events.

He did not really distinguish himself during his time at KC as far as I remember. The one accomplishment that sticks in my mind was his contribution to the half dozen or so personal foul penalties the Chiefs defense gifted to Denver on one of the last drives of the game. If they had done an autopsy after his flaming car crash, I wonder if they would have found degenerative brain disease. Horrible thing to say.