A Hater's Take, Part II

[Deputy Nutz]

Umm, for the second season in a row the Packers were able to lay an egg and still win the ball game. The reason this year was the same as last year, Charles Woodson. He was responsible for three turnovers that allowed the Packers to control the ball game.

On offense the Packers looked disjointed all day long. The Packers offense was plagued by penalties by the offensive line, and those penalties were caused by a breakdown in technique across the board. Wells and Lang were the only offensive linemen that didn't receive a holding penalty. When they weren't holding in the first half they were allowing pressure from all directions which didn't allow Aaron Rodgers to find his usual pinpoint accuracy.

Rodgers didn't have a horrible day, but he missed several throws that he was expected to make. He flat out missed an open Greg Jennings two plays in a row, and then threw a back should pass to Jordy Nelson in the endzone that had no chance, it was thrown too wide and too low. He was able to make a great throw on Jenning's deep post for the touchdown and at the end of the game he hit Jordy on the skinny post that was caught in stride and was able to sprint to the endzone. One other thing that I noticed was on the Packers first scoring drive, the play before Kuhn's rushing touchdown Rodgers threw to Kuhn in the flat and Kuhn wasn't able to hang on to it. It seemed that Rodgers let him know about it, whether it was the drop, or if Kuhn ran the wrong route. It doesn't really matter but Rodgers' facial expression has that he seemed pissed off, and he had words with Kuhn after the play. To me, Rodgers allowed his frustrations to come through after that play, he may be a perfectionist, but he needs to keep his composure, and that is a lot to ask but it doesn't look good.

The running game was effective for the entire day. Starks and Grant make good team, neither one of them has any flash what so ever, but they move the ball up field. They catch the ball well and get the yards that are available. Both have to avoid tacklers better and not let the first guy bring them down in the open field, but Starks has the ability to get to the second level and right now is the more dynamic runner than Grant. Grant has always been better in the second half of the season, but he needs to shake the rust off otherwise I don't see a reason for him to be on the field instead of Starks unless it is to spell Starks.

Jennngs and Jordy were the biggest contributors as far as wide receivers go. Jennings was the only receiver that had multiple catches. Finley was Rodgers' main target throughout the game, along with several passes to the running backs.

On defense the Packers allowed another passer to put up over 400 yards on them. The season is only two weeks old and they have given up 900 yards passing. The Packers are getting nothing from Eric Walden, he is stiff in coverage and doesn't get to the passer when he is on blitz Mathews was active most of the day but the Packers need to drop him in coverage every now and then to keep the offense honest. I didn't think the Packers put enough pressure on Cam Newton. The Packers had no answers for Olsen and Shockey. If Newton focused on those two the entire game the score would have been different. Newton locked on to Steve Smith and the Packers took advantage of it with Woodson's two picks. Smith isn't a bad target for a QB to lock onto though, he is quick and gets open. The Packers need Tramon Williams. Shields isn't a starting corner in this league, and Woodson has to pick his spots against a receiver like Steve Smith. All in all outside of Mathews, the Packers linebackers were nonexistent in todays game.

[mmmdk]

I agree - with everything of the above. :five:

[pbmax]

I think the Packers purposefully took Shockey and Olsen out of the game (presumably by taking off LB coverage and putting a safety or CB on them). I think this explains Burnett in coverage wide on some plays in the second half. It also explains why the WRs all of a sudden were open in zones.

I haven't rewatched the game, but this was my thought as it happened.

Still like seeing the post.

[vince]

There's a lot of work to do in just about every aspect of the game. It's good to be 2-0. Big game next week will tell a lot. Tramon being out takes Woodson out of his playmaking rover spot. He came up big in the secondary but couldn't wreak much havoc around the LOS or in the backfield. Tramon is a difference maker and allows Wood to play inside and blitz. Offenses have to adjust to Wood which helps everyone.

[Bretsky]

We need Tramon Back next week
So far the defense has been a big diappointment but I'll take 2-0 any year

[Harlan Huckleby]

The packers should never run left because Clifton can't run block at all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We start off slow every year... losing to average and sometimes bad teams. At least, we are winning those games this year. Now, let's kick the shit out of the Bears. Bury them early.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We need Cullen Back
fixed
They are playing BJ Raji to death. Pickett on the field too much too.

Honestly, I don't know how Capers is getting by. The linebacker blitzes up the middle aren't working at all.

[red]

fixed
They are playing BJ Raji to death. Pickett on the field too much too.

Honestly, I don't know how Capers is getting by. The linebacker blitzes up the middle aren't working at all.

i wonder if there is a certain number of plays that a d-lineman has in him like running backs have

we could be looking at a young guy who plays almost every snap and plays it well, but has a pretty short career

none of our blitzes are working right now, not just the ones up the middle. its ugly

[Brandon494]

It seemed that Rodgers let him know about it, whether it was the drop, or if Kuhn ran the wrong route. It doesn't really matter but Rodgers' facial expression has that he seemed pissed off, and he had words with Kuhn after the play. To me, Rodgers allowed his frustrations to come through after that play, he may be a perfectionist, but he needs to keep his composure, and that is a lot to ask but it doesn't look good.

Yea Brady and Manning do the same thing and I have no problem with Rodgers doing it.

Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence- Vince Lombardi

[Partial]

Lack of pass rush is starting to scare me. Hopefully Mike Neal makes a big difference. Cullen Jenkins looked good tonight in the parts of the game I managed to not nap during.

[channtheman]

I really think Starks should be starting. He looks a lot quicker and seems to hit the hole harder than Grant, who seems timid and hesitant at times. Our defense has been absolutely horrific. It was convenient to use the excuse of the Saints offense being so good but after Newton torched us I hope we fix our problems and fast. Hard to believe that Newton with 2 400 yard games is not leading the league in passing yards.

[CaliforniaCheez]

This coaching staff really seems to get the team better over the course of the season.
However, 2 of the next 3 weeks are at Chicago and at the Falcons.

Get through these 3 weeks and then the next 3 weeks after that lighten up. 6-1 at the bye week would be pretty good.
When you are the Champs everyone plays you like it is a playoff game.
The Bears will be upset after their loss this week.

[Deputy Nutz]

Yea Brady and Manning do the same thing and I have no problem with Rodgers doing it.

Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence- Vince Lombardi

I don't like it when Manning or Brady do it either. Manning always looks like a crybaby when he is bitching at his teammates. Coaches are the ones that demand perfection, not quarterbacks. If McCarthy doesn't like what he sees then he can go chew a little ass, but Rodgers needs to go on to the next play. Nobody bitched at him when he missed Jennings two times in a row for a first down.

[Deputy Nutz]

Lack of pass rush is starting to scare me. Hopefully Mike Neal makes a big difference. Cullen Jenkins looked good tonight in the parts of the game I managed to not nap during.

I completely agree, but I don't think Mike Neal is going to be the saving grace of our pass rush. This defense is based on timing and the timing is off right now. Our blitz scheme is pretty vanilla right now as well. I see the same blitzes over and over again. Getting Tramon Williams back is also a key. Like others were saying in the posts above, Tramon always Woodson to play the slot, getting him closer to the line of scrimmage where he can rush the passer, and help in run support.

[CaptainD]

I don't see a reason for him to be on the field instead of Starks unless it is to spell Starks.

Simple because Starks can't pass block and keeps f'ing up assignments. He blew a block in the 2nd quarter I believe and they pulled him for Grant.
When #12 is your franchise and you keep exposing him your not getting on the field full time.

[bobblehead]

The packers should never run left because Clifton can't run block at all.

QFT...bring on the younger generation.

[Pugger]

Simple because Starks can't pass block and keeps f'ing up assignments. He blew a block in the 2nd quarter I believe and they pulled him for Grant.When #12 is your franchise and you keep exposing him your not getting on the field full time.

This.

And the game itself? It isn't easy to watch a game like this but this team did what championship teams do: they found a way to win when they weren't at their best. I didn't mind Rodgers being frustrated yesterday. He wasn't alone.

[pbmax]

I don't like it when Manning or Brady do it either. Manning always looks like a crybaby when he is bitching at his teammates. Coaches are the ones that demand perfection, not quarterbacks. If McCarthy doesn't like what he sees then he can go chew a little ass, but Rodgers needs to go on to the next play. Nobody bitched at him when he missed Jennings two times in a row for a first down.

Agree. It doesn't pay off long term to do this. One of the things I admired about Favre was that he kept most of that private, and did not display those feelings on the field until much later in his career. And even then I don't think it helped him at all.

[Deputy Nutz]

In Favre's case I remember during McCarthy's first year as coach he got after Clifton and Colledge a couple of times. Favre was pressing late in his career to win and it sometimes brought out the worst of his character. You don't lead the NFL in all time interceptions thrown and then bitch at teammates on the field. Favre understood mistakes better than anyone, whether it was throwning INTs or getting a receiver decked by throwing high over the middle.

[Joemailman]

It's not Rodgers' best trait, but he's not afraid to point out his own faults, so I don't think it will descend into a problem. He took responsibility for the missed pass to Jordy Nelson at the goal line in his PC yesterday. I think he gets frustrated when he senses the offense is not playing well, but I don't think he's looking for someone to blame.

[Deputy Nutz]

He should take responsiblity, but that isn't the point, when he is showing frustration at another teammate, that is showing up the teammate for all the world to see. You saw what happened three seasons ago when Finley called out Rodgers when Finley was a rookie, the guy was massacred. It doesn't go both ways when it is the QB and another players

[Joemailman]

I agree with you that it's not a good thing when he lets his frustration with a teammate show. However, I wouldn't compare it to what Finley did. Finley was using the media to call out Rodgers. I'm pretty sure Rodgers has never done that, and the coaching staff would have a big problem with it if he did.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He should run down the field and show the receiver how the route should be run when the receiver messes up--like Favre used to do.

[pbmax]

He should run down the field and show the receiver how the route should be run when the receiver messes up--like Favre used to do.

Video?

[Bretsky]

He should run down the field and show the receiver how the route should be run when the receiver messes up--like Favre used to do.


I don't remember Favre running any pass routes and if he did I'd bet they were ugly

[HarveyWallbangers]

I doubt there's video on it, but I remember it vividly. I think it was the year Favre had all of the injuries at WR (2005 maybe), and there were young guys playing. Favre was in full frustration mode. A receiver would run a bad route, and he'd run down the field and physically show the receiver how to turn out rather than in... or whatever.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Maybe Rodgers should blast his receivers over their contracts (like Favre) or openly campaign for management to sign another receiver to replace one of the receivers currently on the roster (like Favre did with Moss)--instead of campaigning management to resign his guys.


"Sure, Sterling's the guy I've thrown to the most the last two years," said Favre, who signed his own five-year, $19 million blockbuster deal on July 14. "But I can't fold my tent, then walk into the huddle and let the others see that I've given up. In my opinion Sterling's under contract, and he should honor that contract."


Favre offended Walker when he spoke out against the receiver in his contract dispute, saying he should come to training camp and not hold out. (Walker heeded the advice.) Walker believes Favre's comments made living and working in Wisconsin difficult; Walker tells of one instance when he was in a hotel and an employee announced his presence on an Internet message board for "anyone who had something to say to Javon Walker." It also angered Walker that the team allowed its iconic quarterback to interfere publicly in a teammate's business with management. He held his tongue all year.

"There's an unwritten rule that players stick together," said Walker, still biting his tongue on Favre for the most part.

Quite honestly, I could care less if Favre said these things. I may even agree with him, but nitpicking Rodgers for not always smiling on the field when things go wrong is a little absurd to me.

[pbmax]

Don't remember route running in 2005, but he did get more vocal and visible on the field late in his career, so it fits with my memories. And I don't think it helped him at all.

Which is why Rodgers would do well to mimic earlier Favre (or pick any other even tempered QB you would like, say Joe Montana (his personal favorite) or Steve Young).

Will it stall his career? No. Is it unnecessary? Yes.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'll take some grimaces over the alternative.


Updated: May 15, 2007, 11:33 PM ET

MILWAUKEE -- Although Brett Favre plans to skip the Green Bay Packers' mandatory minicamp this weekend, he might not be excused by Packers coach Mike McCarthy.

McCarthy was not available for comment Tuesday, but team spokesman Jeff Blumb said that as far as McCarthy was concerned, "the camp is mandatory."

The Packers' three-day minicamp begins Friday, and Favre could face fines from the team if he fails to show up without being formally excused.

Favre told the Biloxi (Miss.) Sun-Herald that because he is unable to practice while recovering from offseason ankle surgery, he is going to stay home in Mississippi -- where he'll apparently try his hand at party planning.

"They were going to have me sit out anyway," Favre said, in a story that appeared on the paper's Web site on Tuesday. "To be honest, we have [daughter] Brittany graduating in two weeks. Instead of going up there and not doing anything, I will be better off being at home because of graduation parties and banquets."

Favre said the move is not related to his frustration with the team's unwillingness to complete a trade for wide receiver Randy Moss.

"I am frustrated," Favre told the paper. "But being frustrated and not going are not related."

Favre spent Saturday grousing about the Packers' front office in a handful of interviews conducted at his charity golf tournament in Tunica, Miss. On Sunday, Fox Sports' Web site reported that Favre's agent requested a trade shortly after the Packers failed to land Moss during the NFL draft last month. Moss instead was traded from Oakland to New England.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I completely agree, but I don't think Mike Neal is going to be the saving grace of our pass rush. This defense is based on timing and the timing is off right now. IF Neal gets back to 100%, he would make a big difference. Cullen Jenkins made a big dif when he returned from injury late last year.

[Deputy Nutz]

Hey Harv, pretty hard to stay on topic? Posters pointed out the times Favre went after players on the field, it was a normal discussion, and you go off the deep end with Favre. What the point? I don't think anyone mentioned having a 42 year old Favre on the Packer's roster. Chill out.

You don't like my take on Rodgers, go after my take, and about Rodgers.

[pbmax]

I'll take some grimaces over the alternative.

Not asking for a replacement. Looking for a leader who keeps things that belongs in the locker room in the locker room. In fact, I fear grimaces lead almost inevitably to graduation parties over OTAs.

[Deputy Nutz]

I doubt there's video on it, but I remember it vividly. I think it was the year Favre had all of the injuries at WR (2005 maybe), and there were young guys playing. Favre was in full frustration mode. A receiver would run a bad route, and he'd run down the field and physically show the receiver how to turn out rather than in... or whatever.

He did it in practice when all the receivers were hurt and nobody was their to run routes. Pactice vs game. You are better than this harvey.

[Deputy Nutz]

I agree with you that it's not a good thing when he lets his frustration with a teammate show. However, I wouldn't compare it to what Finley did. Finley was using the media to call out Rodgers. I'm pretty sure Rodgers has never done that, and the coaching staff would have a big problem with it if he did.

Finley did use the media, but I thought Rodgers went and voiced his displeasure with Finley on the field, and that is why reporters asked Finley about the route. I might be mistaken, but that is why I brought it up as a comparision.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In his last 12 healthy games, Rodgers has completed 257 of 392 passes (66%) for 3579 yards (9.1 ypa) with 30 touchdowns and just 3 interceptions. He's on a historic run right now. That kind of play will buy you a lot of credibility in the locker room. Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. He has the same reaction after he misses a throw (his fault) as he does when somebody drops one. However, after the game he always takes blame (sometimes unnecessary) and shows undying loyalty to his guys.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He did it in practice when all the receivers were hurt and nobody was their to run routes. Pactice vs game. You are better than this harvey.

Nope. How would I know he did it in practice? It was in the games. I remember him doing it several times too--not just once.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hey Harv, pretty hard to stay on topic? Posters pointed out the times Favre went after players on the field, it was a normal discussion, and you go off the deep end with Favre. What the point? I don't think anyone mentioned having a 42 year old Favre on the Packer's roster. Chill out.

You don't like my take on Rodgers, go after my take, and about Rodgers.

I did. It's much ado about nothing.

[Deputy Nutz]

Nope. How would I know he did it in practice? It was in the games. I remember him doing it several times too--not just once.

Because it was actually reported, unlike your claims that Favre had sarcastically jogged down the field in a middle of game to demonstrate a proper route.

[Deputy Nutz]

I did. It's much ado about nothing.

Well great, I think Rodgers is an arrogant asshole

[Deputy Nutz]

IF Neal gets back to 100%, he would make a big difference. Cullen Jenkins made a big dif when he returned from injury late last year.

I don't know how much of an impact Neal can make because he has been injured for 16 straight regular season games. But hopefully for Packer fan he can get after the passer.

[HarveyWallbangers]

1) We have no idea what Rodgers said to Kuhn. Maybe he was pissed at himself for not running it in.
2) Once again, this was a game we won almost solely because our QB was better than the other team's QB. He made plays and didn't make mistakes. Newton made plays but made mistakes. He was game MVP. Was he perfect? No. Hell, he's been so damn good that this might be one of the worst games he's played over the last 12 games, and he was still darn good. To me, it seems like you are going out of your way to rip Rodgers. Memories fade. Favre, just like all QBs, have shown frustration on the field. I saw Tom Brady yell at one of his teammates late last year. Manning does it all of the time. Maybe Rodgers doesn't have Joe Montana's cool demeanor, but if we went back, I bet even Joe showed frustration at times.

[Deputy Nutz]

In his last 12 healthy games, Rodgers has completed 257 of 392 passes (66%) for 3579 yards (9.1 ypa) with 30 touchdowns and just 3 interceptions. He's on a historic run right now. That kind of play will buy you a lot of credibility in the locker room. Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. He has the same reaction after he misses a throw (his fault) as he does when somebody drops one. However, after the game he always takes blame (sometimes unnecessary) and shows undying loyalty to his guys.

Kind of like when Favre won three MVPs in a row and we all ignored his sophmoric behavior. Then when he falls out of favor with Packer fan they crucify him and burn him in effigy. I get it, it is a what have you done for me lately fan base across the NFL, it will never change and I would expect the same thing to happen to Aaron Rodgers but he is such a kiss ass to the Wisconsin sport fan, and the Wisconsin media, he has created an image of that of Bart Star.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers right now is better than Favre in his prime. I'm happy we had Favre, and I'm even happier we have Rodgers. My only worry is that Rodgers stays healthy.


Like I said, memories of the bad things fade. I didn't just make this up--like you are insinuating. I doubt I'll find video on it, but I'm not the only one apparently who has noticed it. Once again, I could care less if Favre or Rodgers has done it. Not once did a chastise Favre for doing it at the time.

http://www.packerchatters.com/4ums/index.php?showtopic=6504


To see Favre continually motion on the field after an incomplete pass that yet again another non-Moss receiver has ran a wrong route is not a positive sign. Add to that all of Favre’s grimacing on the sidelines when something on the field goes array. GB does not need this from Favre when he is the leader of the youngest team in the NFL.

Kind of funny to see the response from a Favre backer:


It is sort of funny that what you site above as a Brett Favre issue I am seeing as a bigger concern for AR. Brett has the tenure and respect of the players and if he is less than happy with a route he has earned the right to display if not chastise a player for it.

Both fans are hypocrits.


I don't really like to see QB's be demonstrative like that. They're on TV, and it can come off as embarrassing or belittling to teammates. I remember Dan Marino seemed to do it a lot too, especially toward the end of his career.

I think you have to factor in the fact that Favre has earned the right to do that a little bit, and that he's essentially coaching on the field at times. It may come off as pretty negative on the TV screen, but it might not be as big of a deal as you think too.

I can see where you're going with this thread, and I guess my response is that winning cures all ills. If the Packers can go out and win, then this will be no big deal. If they start losing, then this could morph into something worrisome.


I don't like the facial expressions either because of the cameras. But, I do think these are exactly the things that get WR's and QB's on the same page.


There are ways to coach up your receivers without showing them up in front of the entire world. Favre's act is getting old. Favre easily could have thrown the ball directly to Jones who had his route cut off by a defender before it started, so then he found a hole in the zone and sat there open which is not necessarily wrong, and I'm also not saying it was Favre's fault either, things happen. But there's no need to throw your receivers under the bus on national TV, which has become an all to often of an occurrence. If he's got a problem it shjould be handled on the sidelines.

[HarveyWallbangers]

This sounds exactly like my reasoning.
:)

The difference is I'm not being a hypocrit because I never ripped Favre for doing it in the first place. Just defending Rodgers because I see QBs do it all of the time. I think it's nitpicking.


Wow, Tom Brady does this all the time and gets credited as being the team leader. Peyton Manning does this and is viewed as being the best QB in the NFL. Brett Favre does this and is viewed as being "a tired act". You guys always seem to find something. Favre was the only reason we were even in that game against JAX, and you still find fault.


Secondly, EVERY veteran QB "coaches" to some extent on the field, moreso if they are playing with younger/less experienced team mates. Manning still gets on Reggie Wayne and they've played together like 6 years now. Tom Brady's looks of disgust last year happened NUMEROUS times ( in fairness, I would too playing with Caldwell and Gaffney). Elway, Marino, Young, Aikman all did it as well... especially once they were playing with players of less skill than the Dupers, Taylors, Irvins, etc that they were used to playing with.

BTW, I'm starting to think Harlan is right about Cullen Jenkins. Our defense scares me right now. At least, they are still making big plays to win games--like last year and unlike 2008.

[Deputy Nutz]

As an offensive linemen, I hated having to listen to another skill position bitch about our blocking. I certainly wasn't going to bitch about our QB missing open receivers and to me his job was a lot softer than ours. I don't think it should happen on the field, and I really don't think it should happen in the locker room. It is the coaches responsiblity to coach up the team or dicipline the team, not the QB.

So when Favre did it, I didn't defend him, he should have a conversation with his receivers to get on the same page, but to ridicule or demean a player on the field is different story. Shit he had to put up with Bil Sheroder for how many seasons and he tried to take him deer hunting to try and bond with him. Favre should be held up as a Saint for dealing with that worthless bugger.

[Deputy Nutz]

BTW, I'm starting to think Harlan is right about Cullen Jenkins. Our defense scares me right now. At least, they are still making big plays to win games--like last year and unlike 2008.

It is not the loss of Cullen Jenkins that bothers me, it was the lack of a sure replacement that bothered me. The Packers put confidence in an injury plagued 2nd year player to hold up the end spot opposite of Clay Mathews. This goes along with the fact that the Packers have an undrafted scrap heap free agent from last year starting on the same side. Eric Walden might be a decent reserve but I haven't seen enough good plays out of him to think he isn't anything more than a scrap heap type player. The Packers need a presence on the other side whether it is a down lineman or a linebacker that can get some pressure, or at least be able to cover, which Walden can't.

[pbmax]

Its dumb and unnecessary. Doesn't matter if its Rodgers, Favre, Manning, Marino or Otto Graham, its ridiculous and counter-productive. The fact that it seems to happen most frequently when teams are struggling would seem to indicate that its not helping. Its simply letting frustration get the better of you.

My memory hasn't faded and this isn't a personal snit-fest between Harv and Nutz, or Rodgers v Favre.

In point of fact, I think Marino and Favre could be held up as examples of players getting to that level of frustration as their careers expired. A picture is worth a thousand words and Rodgers should stop volunteering that picture.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

[pbmax]

OLB wasn't any better at the start of last year as Jones hasn't shown his previous pass rushing form since his first series of starts. It might have been a mirage of bad opponents, or something else unlikely to re-occur.

But that doesn't make Jenkins a safe bet. The Packers will need to have someone step up again, just like last year. Between Neal and So'oto, someone has to get healthy. And hopefully Wynn isn't done getting penetration. He did have a solid game against the run on the plays I saw him.

[pbmax]

He didn't become a perfectionist in the last 30 days Harv. He wasn't doing it this much last year.

[Pugger]

If Rodgers didn't care he wouldn't be frustrated. The last I heard Rodgers is human...

[pbmax]

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games...

... Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

But is the public demonstration actually helping him achieve these results? They played worse on offense last year and he seemed more at ease.

[Joemailman]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

I could see Rodgers approaching the 36 TD 4 INT season Brady had. The last 2 years, Rodgers has been the NFL's best passer in the 2nd half of the season. Last year he was 16-2 in the second half after 12-9 in the 1st half. The fact that he's 5-0 to start this year gives him a shot. At this point, I don't think Rodgers has had a season that matched what Favre did in 1995-96, but he could this year.

[pbmax]

Point of clarification. Was just watching highlights and unlike my memory, Olsen was getting single coverage early from Burnett. Not sure what the D did to slow him down after the first quarter, if anything. Shockey was getting LBs and safeties over the top.

Also, Peprah was the safety who let Smith get behind him on his long TD.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He didn't become a perfectionist in the last 30 days Harv. He wasn't doing it this much last year.

He did do it last year. He did it a lot when Jones dropped a ball. I have the last several games still DVR'd, and he did it a lot. Honestly, I don't think much has changed.

[mraynrand]

It is not the loss of Cullen Jenkins that bothers me, it was the lack of a sure replacement that bothered me. The Packers put confidence in an injury plagued 2nd year player to hold up the end spot opposite of Clay Mathews.

What does this mean? Do you really believe Neal is to blame - or the GM is to blame for not anticipating Neal getting a knee injury. Yes, he was counting on the guy to produce in his second year, just like this team has been doing for most players at most positions. Was TT wrong to count on an injury plagued Finley last year. There was a lack of a sure replacement there too. What can be done? What should have been done differently? Seems like as GM you have to roll the dice somewhat and takes your chances.

[Guiness]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

The run Brady is on at home right now is pretty insane. He's won his last 29 straight regular season games there, hasn't thrown an INT in his last 6!

[Deputy Nutz]

You really can't blame Neil. He is a work out machine, he tries to keep his body in tip top shape, but he has history, and for that you have to blame Thompson. Thompson took a risk in drafting him in the second round because of Neal's potential when he is not injured, but Neal is still injured and it doesn't look like he will be healthy any time soon. Neal, Wynn, Wilson are not in Jenkins class, and the Packers went into this season with those three players at RDE wilth no veteran backbone. I like Green, but the problem is this a passing league and having Green, Raji, and Pickett on the front line is useless unless you are battling the Steelers or Atlanta. The Packers needed someone else besides Wynn, Neal, and Wilson, combine that with two free agent olbs, and a 7th round draft pick competing for the lolb position and you don't have much talent or healthy talent on the left side of the line of scrimmage.

[3irty1]

You really can't blame Neil. He is a work out machine, he tries to keep his body in tip top shape, but he has history, and for that you have to blame Thompson. Thompson took a risk in drafting him in the second round because of Neal's potential when he is not injured, but Neal is still injured and it doesn't look like he will be healthy any time soon. Neal, Wynn, Wilson are not in Jenkins class, and the Packers went into this season with those three players at RDE wilth no veteran backbone. I like Green, but the problem is this a passing league and having Green, Raji, and Pickett on the front line is useless unless you are battling the Steelers or Atlanta. The Packers needed someone else besides Wynn, Neal, and Wilson, combine that with two free agent olbs, and a 7th round draft pick competing for the lolb position and you don't have much talent or healthy talent on the left side of the line of scrimmage.

The insane depth in the secondary, along the OL, WR, TE, RB, and QB have spoiled you rotten. The DL hasn't had a bad game yet this season. Mike Neal is a disappointment yes but if you want insurance I don't think the answer is adding another injury plagued guy in Jenkins. The DL has been a strength of the team so far this season. Apparently Wynn secretly planned on replacing Jenkins all along.

[pbmax]

He did do it last year. He did it a lot when Jones dropped a ball. I have the last several games still DVR'd, and he did it a lot. Honestly, I don't think much has changed.

Exasperation in the backfield or staring down the receiver on the return to the huddle, with a talking to, to boot?

I don't remember Jones getting that treatment last year, in fact, I remember the opposite.

[Deputy Nutz]

The insane depth in the secondary, along the OL, WR, TE, RB, and QB have spoiled you rotten. The DL hasn't had a bad game yet this season. Mike Neal is a disappointment yes but if you want insurance I don't think the answer is adding another injury plagued guy in Jenkins. The DL has been a strength of the team so far this season. Apparently Wynn secretly planned on replacing Jenkins all along.

I am not pissing on the defensive line as a whole, I am bitching about the lack of talent opposite of Mathews. Where is the pressure going to come from if not from Mathews?

[Harlan Huckleby]

And hopefully Wynn isn't done getting penetration. Wynn is young and, more importantly, single.

I apologize.

[sharpe1027]

At the risk of derailing the discussion, this thread's discussion of Neal raises a question for which I have never been able to find a satisfactory answer. Is a past injury history a good predictor of future injuries?

Some players have multiple injuries and eventually washout. Others never get injured. Still others get injured a few times and then never get injured again. I would imagine that some injuries have could increase the chance of further injury (reconstructive ACL surgery might mean a higher risk of re-tearing the ACL), while others do not (getting turf toe won't mean you are likely to tear your meniscus).

I do not know the answer, one way or the other, but it is always discussed as if it was an indisputable fact, if a player has been injured several times, he is likely to be injured again. Should I just accept this as a solid argument, or is there a reason to be skeptical?

[mraynrand]

be skeptical