Unnecessary Roughness Penalties

[ThunderDan]

I think I have had enough of this.

I understand needing to protect defenseless players and to not let 300 lbs DL pile-drive the QB into the turf but after this week I am sick of it.

Jenkins goes helmet to helmet with Ryan and no call while the ATL player hits Vick in the back at half speed with the crown of his helmet and helps keep him stay upright and that gets a flag. On Ryan's "splits" play the PHI DL has him in a headlock to bring him down and no call. On antoher play Ryan gets rid of the ball and 3 steps later the PHI DL brings him down. Bishop hits Cam while in the process of tackling Cam but the ball was still there before he goes to make the tackle. 15 yard penalty on the ATL DB for going helmet to helmet and Chris Colinsworth goes apeshit. To me that was a legal play, the WR wasn't defenseless and to me it looked like the DL was trying to deliver a forearm to the shoulder not hit the helmet but at the speed of the game missed by 2 inches and their helmets glanced into each other.

The NFL has to get the subjectivity of the call out of the game. Either everything is a 15 yard penalty or some very specific subset of hits is a penalty everytime no matter what the intent or severity of the hit.

[Pugger]

It is ridiculous. I saw that headlock 'tackle' of Ryan last night and was surprised that wasn't flagged. :shock: If a defender is about to sack the QB but the ball gets out of there 2 steps before he releases the ball that shouldn't be a penalty unless the QB gets hit helmet to helmet. Good lord, what is the defender supposed to do, stop in mid-air?? :doh:

[pbmax]

Until I see a better angle on replays, not only was the Robinson hit to Maclin not helmet to helmet, but also may not have been helmet to anything. If the helmet hit anything, it hit Maclins shoulder.

And as I understand the rule, it was legal.

As for roughness, I am all for not hitting with the crown of the helmet. So I have no problem with the penalty on the Vick hit in the back. But the Jenkins no call was odd and probably blown.

Thought both Bishop's call and the one for Rodgers were ticky tacky and did not involve the helmet or anything worthy of a flag.

[pbmax]

It is ridiculous. I saw that headlock 'tackle' of Ryan last night and was surprised that wasn't flagged. :shock: If a defender is about to sack the QB but the ball gets out of there 2 steps before he releases the ball that shouldn't be a penalty unless the QB gets hit helmet to helmet. Good lord, what is the defender supposed to do, stop in mid-air?? :doh:

The defender shouldn't be in the air, according to the rules. But otherwise, I agree that meaningless contact that does not involve the head should be ignored.

[Joemailman]

Until I see a better angle on replays, not only was the Robinson hit to Maclin not helmet to helmet, but also may not have been helmet to anything. If the helmet hit anything, it hit Maclins shoulder.

And as I understand the rule, it was legal.

As for roughness, I am all for not hitting with the crown of the helmet. So I have no problem with the penalty on the Vick hit in the back. But the Jenkins no call was odd and probably blown.

Thought both Bishop's call and the one for Rodgers were ticky tacky and did not involve the helmet or anything worthy of a flag.

It looks to me like Robinson's helmet hits Maclin in the chin, and then the shoulder. The best look is it the 1:20 mark. I think it was a penalty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvRKHy0QWZE&feature=player_embedded#t=74s

[Zool]

I guess I had a different feed than you guys did. Robinson lead with the top of his helmet directly the to the chin of Maclin.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvRKHy0QWZE

Not really sure how much more specific it can get than that for a personal foul. Don't fucking lead with your head. Its always a foul. It used to be called spearing if you recall. Was a penalty before too but called way less.

[Joemailman]

It also appears he attempted to follow through with a forearm to the head. Not sure if it connected.

[pbmax]

Well alright, I withdraw my complaint. The 1:20 mark replay does show his helmet getting Maclin's chin. I did not see it last night, even though I did see that replay.

But leading with your head is still legal despite the broadcast complaints. You just can't hit someone around the head or neck with your head when they are defenseless. Its a dumb position to put yourself into as his being carted off the field last year shows, but its still legal into the body.

[smuggler]

Did they change the rules from last year? I thought a helmet to helmet hit on a runner was legal? It's only illegal on a defenseless receiver.

He was running with the ball. Bad call, says I. The officiating in the game somewhat favored the Eagles.

[Deputy Nutz]

Robinson lowered his head, and although his helmet didn't make contact the intention was clear. I believe the receiver had enough time to react to a collision so he wasn't defensless, but he can't lower your helmet like that in todays game.

The NFL is going to bury itself with all of this regulation.

[pbmax]

Robinson lowered his head, and although his helmet didn't make contact the intention was clear. I believe the receiver had enough time to react to a collision so he wasn't defensless, but he can't lower your helmet like that in todays game.

The NFL is going to bury itself with all of this regulation.

Its going to be interesting to see if the NFL cares to explain if they fine him.

And the NFL could regulate however they wish, but when you need 2 super slowmo cameras to figure it out, its going to get no support from the fans or players. There is no way to understand the rules of the game at actual speed.

[jmbarnes101]

Just like bloated laws and regulation are currently killing our country, the same will kill the NFL. Player safety is one thing but you can't regulate it out without fundamentally changing the game. If rules can't be be determined by an average 8th grade kid they need to go.

[ThunderDan]

It looks to me like Robinson's helmet hits Maclin in the chin, and then the shoulder. The best look is it the 1:20 mark. I think it was a penalty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvRKHy0QWZE&feature=player_embedded#t=74s

I agree he made contact with his facemask but I beleive the intent was to bring his shoulder into Maclin and made incidental contact with the helmet. Maclin wasn't defenseless which I think where the penalty is suppose to derive friom.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Thought both Bishop's call and the one for Rodgers were ticky tacky and did not involve the helmet or anything worthy of a flag.

I saw the same call made in the New England game. Evidently it is not a "ticky tacky" call, it is the new rule. If you hit the QB ANYWHERE after the ball is released, it's roughing the passer.

Man, you can't hit the QB's helmet, which makes sense but is very hard to avoid when the point is to interview with passing.
Its an automatic penalty if you tackle in the lower legs.
And now a tackle to the midsection is "roughing" if the damn ball has left the QB's hand.

It's gotten ridiculous. The penalty is game changing, and the defenders are just doing what they have to. They can't know exactly when the ball will be released.

[ThunderDan]

The officiating in the game somewhat favored the Eagles.

That's what I thought too. Just wondering if the NFL was trying to keep the "Dream Team" mystique alive.

[pbmax]

I saw the same call made in the New England game. Evidently it is not a "ticky tacky" call, it is the new rule. If you hit the QB ANYWHERE after the ball is released, it's roughing the passer.

Man, you can't hit the QB's helmet, which makes sense but is very hard to avoid when the point is to interview with passing.
Its an automatic penalty if you tackle in the lower legs.
And now a tackle to the midsection is "roughing" if the damn ball has left the QB's hand.

It's gotten ridiculous. The penalty is game changing, and the defenders are just doing what they have to. They can't know exactly when the ball will be released.

That is apparently not true, look at the hit that took Vick out in Atlanta. It was all post pass action.

[Harlan Huckleby]

maybe they are missing some legitimate calls, but penalizing a tackle to the midsection when the ball has just left the QB's hands is getting called all over.


They need to fix this.

[Deputy Nutz]

It is a total judgement call, just like holding, or pass interference. Roughing the passer could mean one step after the QB has released the ball, or 4 steps. Who knows? It could mean a forearm to the helmet or two fingers on the helmet.

[Pugger]

The defender shouldn't be in the air, according to the rules. But otherwise, I agree that meaningless contact that does not involve the head should be ignored.

I didn't mean literally in the air. If you are running full speed to sack the QB it is damn hard to stop yourself on a dime.

[Pugger]

I still cringe a little bit when I envision that head lock tackle on Ryan last night? How is that not a penalty??

[pbmax]

I didn't mean literally in the air. If you are running full speed to sack the QB it is damn hard to stop yourself on a dime.

D lineman got used to the 2 step rule back in the 90s. You just have to slide off. Or take the hit full speed and hope for the best.

[pbmax]

I still cringe a little bit when I envision that head lock tackle on Ryan last night? How is that not a penalty??

Unsure, but when a QB runs to escape the pocket, rules do change. Even better question is how the refs blew that intentional grounding call when he was out of the tackle box.

[Pugger]

Unsure, but when a QB runs to escape the pocket, rules do change. Even better question is how the refs blew that intentional grounding call when he was out of the tackle box.

Yeah, those refs didn't have a stellar night did they?

[pbmax]

Yeah, those refs didn't have a stellar night did they?

Nope. And I understand the new reception rules are designed to make it easier on the refs. The entire point of that stupid rule is to make the determination easy on the ref on the field. That I can understand.

But they carry the logic of the rule to ridiculous lengths. I suppose I will get used to it if they maintain uniformity.

[Guiness]

To me, this is a cut & dried call. He was head hunting. Lead with his helmet, no use of the arms to even attempt to tackle. McClain was almost upright, it's not like he was lowering his head towards the contact. At full speed, I initially thought Duante left his feet (also illegal) although the replay shows he did not. I thought you could also hear the 'click' of the helmet making contact quite clearly. A shot to the chin like that, jarring your teeth, is a surefire route to a concussion.

Anyone know the answer to Smuggler's question? Is helmet to helmet legal on a runner?

[Guiness]

I didn't mean literally in the air. If you are running full speed to sack the QB it is damn hard to stop yourself on a dime.

damn hard...but they've had that rule wrt punters for ages, and players seem to be able to conform with it. And Duante was pretty darn close to airborne.

[Joemailman]

damn hard...but they've had that rule wrt punters for ages, and players seem to be able to conform with it. And Duante was pretty darn close to airborne.

The result being that a blocked punt is an extreme rarity (About one of every 200). Do you want to see the same thing with sacking the QB? I'm all for penalizing the helmet hits and the low (below the knees) hits on Qb's, but the hit by Bishop yesterday is no more likely to cause an injury than a lot of tackles made in a game.

[Guiness]

The result being that a blocked punt is an extreme rarity (About one of every 200). Do you want to see the same thing with sacking the QB? I'm all for penalizing the helmet hits and the low (below the knees) hits on Qb's, but the hit by Bishop yesterday is no more likely to cause an injury than a lot of tackles made in a game.

Fair point - sacks could become nearly that rare if they instituted the same rules.

[Deputy Nutz]

Have they implemented any rules on equipment standards? It would make sense before changing the entire play of the game that players should be required to wear a mouth guard, have double snapped chinstraps that are always fully snapped, and proper padding.

[smuggler]

This article from last season implies that a helmet-to-helmet hit on a runner is legal. However, leaving your feet is definitely a penalty. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/blogs/birds-nest/Sims-Titans-Headfirst-Hit-Johnson-105720798.html

[pbmax]

This article from last season implies that a helmet-to-helmet hit on a runner is legal. However, leaving your feet is definitely a penalty. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/blogs/birds-nest/Sims-Titans-Headfirst-Hit-Johnson-105720798.html

That is still the rule. However, it doesn't apply to defenseless players and that list was expanded this offseason.

[Guiness]

This article from last season implies that a helmet-to-helmet hit on a runner is legal. However, leaving your feet is definitely a penalty. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/blogs/birds-nest/Sims-Titans-Headfirst-Hit-Johnson-105720798.html

Interesting article, not sure how authoritative it is though. Sure seems like those hits are illegal in the open field. Might get away with them when hitting an RB between the tackles, but not much else it seems.

But if that's the case, McClain was certainly a runner. He has turned, and was heading up field. It was a blind side hit though, I don't think he ever saw Duante coming.

[pbmax]

Have they implemented any rules on equipment standards? It would make sense before changing the entire play of the game that players should be required to wear a mouth guard, have double snapped chinstraps that are always fully snapped, and proper padding.

Can't be because few of the QBs wear them. And given ARod's chinstrap, the double ones cannot be mandatory. Hell, they don't even force veterans to use newer helmets. From a visual standpoint (not the best measure, I know) Rodgers new helmet barely looks different from previous models. And no one outside of the LOS wears knee or thigh pads anymore. Get off my lawn!

However, there would still be new rules about the head even if they were all wearing the new stuff. Vick's concussion was from deceleration and rotation, not from improper protection from his padding. Same with Maclin, had that hit driven him into something hard.

[smuggler]

Anyone know the answer to Smuggler's question? Is helmet to helmet legal on a runner?


Penalties: 15 Yards: Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

Which basically means if the officials feel like it, they can flag you for a helmet-to-helmet. I don't know if there's been a language change or if they are just emphasizing it.

Also of interest...


Penalties: 15 Yards: Delay of game at the start of either half, or overtime.

Could you imagine how killer this would be in overtime?

E: Here's the source: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries

[Guiness]

Which basically means if the officials feel like it, they can flag you for a helmet-to-helmet. I don't know if there's been a language change or if they are just emphasizing it.

So, it can be a penalty, if the refs want it to be. Got it!

[pbmax]

Originally Posted by NFL.com
Penalties: 15 Yards: Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

What if you are Robinson and you hit him with the back corner, does that count?

[Cheesehead Craig]

If Robinson learned to actually tackle he wouldn't have a problem.

Too many DBs just throw themselves at WRs and RBs and hope the collision itself knocks the guys down. It's like they don't want to mess up their manicure or something by using their hands.

[pbmax]

I blame Chuck Cecil.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I blame Chuck Cecil.

I blame Ronnie Lott.

[Joemailman]

I blame Ken Stills.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Essentially, everything is a penalty. Hitting with your helmet, leaving your feet, hitting high, hitting low, tackling anywhere a millisecond after the ball leaves the Prince's hand.

I'm not being sarcastic: I think the QB should wear a red jersey during the game, and the defenders have to touch the QB with two hands while he has the ball. That would make the rules clear and honest.

[vince]

Essentially, everything is a penalty. Hitting with your helmet, leaving your feet, hitting high, hitting low, tackling anywhere a millisecond after the ball leaves the Prince's hand.

I'm not being sarcastic: I think the QB should wear a red jersey during the game, and the defenders have to touch the QB with two hands while he has the ball. That would make the rules clear and honest.
This is absolutely true with QB's. The league has gone too far IMO. That tackle by Bishop on Newton was textbook. Maybe he came down on him some with a bit of a pile drive, but Newton can be tough to bring down, especially if a guy has to ease up on him. That should be a legal tackle if there ever was one.

I'm not sure I'd say the same about the defenseless receiver rules though. Granted it's tough to hold up, but that's where Daryl Stingley stuff can happen. And I used to be a strong safety who loved to hit people hard, especially receivers and quarterbacks. They didn't hit back, and if they tried, that was even better.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I totally agree with the protections for the recievers. A lot of those tough-guy safties, including Chuck Cecil, were just cheap shot artists spearing defenseless players.

I can live with most of the protections for QBs, even if I don't agree 100%. But this business of flagging a legal tackle just because the ball was released is absurd. The NFL has jumped the shark.

[Bossman641]

Roman Harper got flagged for an awful roughing penalty on Cutler yesterday. The reason for the penalty? He "landed on Cutler with his entire body weight." He didn't drive him into the ground at all, simply hit him a split second after Cutler threw the ball. Already this year I have seen 4-5 terrible calls.

[Harlan Huckleby]

simply hit him a split second after Cutler threw the ball. Already this year I have seen 4-5 terrible calls. Sorry for the broken record, but that is no longer considered a terrible call. Its the new rule, as stupid as it might be.

[Guiness]

Sorry for the broken record, but that is no longer considered a terrible call. Its the new rule, as stupid as it might be.

is it an actual rule now? So, pretty close to the treatment punters get.

[Bossman641]

Sorry for the broken record, but that is no longer considered a terrible call. Its the new rule, as stupid as it might be.

What exactly is the rule? You can't hit QB's after they have released the ball? I can understand flagging someone for taking 2 steps after the ball is out, launching at the QB, or for driving the QB into the ground. None of those was the case. There was absolutely no chance for Harper to pull up. If that was roughing than you might as well make it illegal to touch the QB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

is it an actual rule now? So, pretty close to the treatment punters get.
ya, they are calling roughing the passer like roughing the punter

[Harlan Huckleby]

What exactly is the rule? You can't hit QB's after they have released the ball? I can understand flagging someone for taking 2 steps after the ball is out, launching at the QB, or for driving the QB into the ground. None of those was the case. There was absolutely no chance for Harper to pull up. If that was roughing than you might as well make it illegal to touch the QB. I don't know how the rule reads, but they are consistently calling ANY tackle of the QB after the ball leaves his hand as roughing. Almost every game it seems to happen.

[pbmax]

Vick would like to take issue, but his concussion is slowing things down. The refs don't know what to call.

Its now such a fine line that it will breakdown like holding and PI call among crews, where there is a wide discrepancy between units.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Vick would like to take issue, but his concussion is slowing things down. The refs don't know what to call.
Vick's concussion was caused by his own offensive tackle so no flag. Mabye they could have ejected him:lol:

[ThunderDan]

Vick's concussion was caused by his own offensive tackle so no flag. Mabye they could have ejected him:lol:

Ball was gone as ATL DL threw Vick into his OT.

[ThunderDan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/09/19/dunta.robinson.hit.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a14&eref=sihp

League fines $40,000. ATL coach says hit was legal.

[pbmax]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/09/19/dunta.robinson.hit.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a14&eref=sihp

League fines $40,000. ATL coach says hit was legal.

This is why Goodell is a tool and stooge of television. Not the Networks who he bosses around like Augusta National, but of incessant replay and PR.

The reason (I give them credit for admitting it) for the penalty:
The league said Robinson violated Rule 12, Section 2, Article 9 (a) (2) of the playing rules, which states: "It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture."

The rule notes that players in a defenseless posture include "a receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/09/19/dunta.robinson.hit.ap/index.html#ixzz1YVsCw7GH


Maclin was not defenseless and he was not in a defenseless posture because of the catch. He turned away from the coming contact and shrank, putting himself in harms way. How can the defender prevent this? And what is to prevent any other receiver from doing this crouch posture when getting hit?

If they had fined him for leading with his head and making contact with the other players head (which, perversely is not against the rules for runners) then it would be hard to argue the facts. But this is fitting a rule to a situation in which it doesn't apply.

[Pugger]

Was the ball out of Ryan's hand when he was horsecollared Sunday night and ended up doing the splits?

[pbmax]

Was the ball out of Ryan's hand when he was horsecollared Sunday night and ended up doing the splits?

Not sure about horsecollar there, but he had thrown it before he was driven/pushed to turf. However, he knew he was going down, which is why he let fly with an obvious throw to no one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ball was gone as ATL DL threw Vick into his OT.

well, this is a little nit-picky, but I didn't see the shove on Vick being so forceful, although he did push Vick into harm's way. It was the Offensive lineman who inadvertently delivered the blow that caused the concusion.

maybe you are right that the Atlanta guy should have been penalized, not sure. The axe I'm grinding is a different case, where the QB gets hit by a legal tackle just as he releases the ball.

[MadtownPacker]

well, this is a little nit-picky, but I didn't see the shove on Vick being so forceful, although he did push Vick into harm's way. It was the Offensive lineman who inadvertently delivered the blow that caused the concusion.

maybe you are right that the Atlanta guy should have been penalized, not sure. The axe I'm grinding is a different case, where the QB gets hit by a legal tackle just as he releases the ball.If I remember right the dude had him wrapped up and was just taking him down. Wasnt even looking up. The OL wasnt even in the way. He got pushed back by a DL right at the exact same time and turned around when he saw the ball had been thrown. That is when vick got swung into/smacked uppercut style into the OLs torso.

[Harlan Huckleby]

thanks for that clarification, Perry Mason. maybe I should say Pendejo Mason

[Guiness]

Roman Harper got flagged for an awful roughing penalty on Cutler yesterday. The reason for the penalty? He "landed on Cutler with his entire body weight." He didn't drive him into the ground at all, simply hit him a split second after Cutler threw the ball. Already this year I have seen 4-5 terrible calls.


Apparently the league has notified the Saints that the call was incorrect.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15623653/harper-nfl-admits-flag-was-wrong-for-hit-on-cutler



METAIRIE, La. - New Orleans Saints (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NO/new-orleans-saints) strong safety Roman Harper (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/412243/roman-harper) says the NFL has notified the team that game officials were wrong to throw a flag for Harper's hard hit on Chicago quarterback Jay Cutler (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/409102/jay-cutler).
The flag flew moments after the quarterback threw an incomplete pass in the first half of New Orleans' 30-13 victory over the Bears last Sunday. The call on third-and-6 extended what turned out to be Chicago's lone touchdown drive of the game.
"When I saw the flag. I couldn't believe it. Cutler went to begging for it and they gave it to him," Harper said. "The bad thing is they got points off of it."
Harper credited Saints coaches for telling him to forget about the flag and remain aggressive. The Saints continued to blitz relentlessly and wound up sacking Cutler six times, with Harper getting two sacks and a forced fumble.
"Pretty much as soon as the play was over, I think coach (Sean) Payton called timeout and really got after the ref," Harper said. "The coaches were like, 'Keep playing. Don't worry about it. That was a [bad] call. Just keep balling and don't worry about that."'
Conversations between the NFL's officiating department and the clubs are confidential, and the league had no comment on Harper's claim.