Defensive Issues

[HarveyWallbangers]

I read these comments by Don Capers:


Defensive coordinator Dom Capers had few complaints with the play of his inside linebackers Sunday.

"I think A.J.'s playing well," he said of A.J. Hawk. "I think both of our inside linebackers played well. Obviously, Desmond Bishop got the game ball, so I think A.J. was right there in terms of production. I think he had some pretty good pressure when we brought him.

"Bishop had the sack coming up inside, so I think both of our inside linebackers had winning performances."

It got me to thinking. The DL is playing well against the run. Average against the pass. Kind of what you expect out of 3-4 DL. The ILBs are playing better the last couple of weeks. The problems seem to stem from three things:

1) The ROLB needs to provide consistent pressure to take the attention away from Matthews. Walden isn't getting it done in that respect. My guess is that we'll see a lot of Zombo when he comes back, and we better hope he's made a jump in his second year (despite the injury).
2) Shields and Tramon aren't playing at the level they did last year.
3) The safety play has been poor. Nick Collins played a poor game in week one. Peprah played poorly in week 3. Burnett makes some plays, but still gives up too many.

I think there's hope that they turn it around, but a few things have to happen. Zombo needs to come back healthy and provide some rush. Shields and Tramon need to get back to last year's level. Peprah needs to improve to adequate. Burnett needs to be more consistent.

[CaliforniaCheez]

1) There is less pressure. Being without Cullen Jenkins is part of that. He drew double teams.
2) Dom Capers is holding some of the blitz packages back. Not so much need for them yet.
3) Matthews is not 100%
4) Burnett is inexperienced at safety.
5) Woodson is not 100%

When Zombo and Neal return and work together for a couple of weeks things will improve in the pressure area.
By then Matthews health should improve and Burnett will be a little wiser.

There are a lot of teams that would like to have the Packers defensive personnel right now.
The Packers are the number one scoring team in the NFL. As long as the defense holds the other team to less then things are fine.

[VermontPackFan]

[QUOTE=HarveyWallbangers;620936]I read these comments by Don Capers:

1) The ROLB needs to provide consistent pressure to take the attention away from Matthews. Walden isn't getting it done in that respect. My guess is that we'll see a lot of Zombo when he comes back, and we better hope he's made a jump in his second year (despite the injury).

Paging Vic So'oto! I hope this kid gets a shot sooner than later. Its unfortunate he got hurt when he did because I think he would have been involved by now. I really like Zombo but I think So'oto might be our long term answer at this position.

[pbmax]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-coaches-looking-to-fix-safety-problem-of-leaky-unit-131027253.html

Burnett is taking some heat for approx 80 yards of passing on two plays (plus one called back on penalty) and Capers says they need to tighten it up. Flea flicker (which while inexcusable, isn't something you forget about easily now that you have made the Broncos highlight reel for the year), Lloyd had the TD on the penalty play and I don't remember the 3rd.

And Bishop may have gotten a game ball, but his forced fumble came after his guy caught the ball behind him and he allowed another lengthy completion earlier.

[Joemailman]

I have some hope that the pass rush will get better when Neal and Zombo return. Neal can be very disruptive in a way that Jenkins was. Burnett needs to understand where the term Safety comes from. He simply can't allow people to get behind him when he is the lone deep safety. What happened on the flea flicker is similar to a play he had against Indy in the preseason. The rest of the secondary has to be able to have confidence that he will be where he is supposed to be.

These guys will get a good test this week. Falcons have the most weapons of any team the Packers have faced since New Orleans.

[denverYooper]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-coaches-looking-to-fix-safety-problem-of-leaky-unit-131027253.html

Burnett is taking some heat for approx 80 yards of passing on two plays (plus one called back on penalty) and Capers says they need to tighten it up. Flea flicker (which while inexcusable, isn't something you forget about easily now that you have made the Broncos highlight reel for the year), Lloyd had the TD on the penalty play and I don't remember the 3rd.

And Bishop may have gotten a game ball, but his forced fumble came after his guy caught the ball behind him and he allowed another lengthy completion earlier.

Probably the second Decker TD? http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d822c3182/Decker-scores-2nd-TD

Burnett turned in for the ball, Decker went out.

[rbaloha1]

MB is still too aggressive on play actions and double moves. Relies too much on speed like a younger Collins. Peprah really needs to get back to playoff form.

The front seven is good against the run. Pass rush is just missing the qb.

Unsure when the defense jells.

[pbmax]

MB is still too aggressive on play actions and double moves. Relies too much on speed like a younger Collins. Peprah really needs to get back to playoff form.

The front seven is good against the run. Pass rush is just missing the qb.

Unsure when the defense jells.

The front seven struggled against the run versus Denver. Raji got turned several times by the interior line of Denver.

[vince]

I agree with just about everything that's been written in this thread, except Dom's comment to the media about Hawk. He's had fewer opportunities to make plays due to fewer runs maybe, but I'd like to see him make a play (perhaps even a tackle for loss) in the every once in a while. I don't recall Hawk creating much pressure or making many plays. The play in the Saints game that was called a PI counts I guess since he can't control the fact that a bad call was made, but I'm not remembering any other play that Hawk has made other than being Steady Eddie tackler for a 5 yard gain or 10 yard reception.

[Smeefers]

I don't know how well AJ is doing. Bishop has 36 tackles this year, AJ has 15. Right now, Morgan Burnett (34) and Bishop are leading the team in tackles. The next closest is Sam Shields at 17. I'm not saying that excuses MB from his mistakes noted here, I'm just saying he's not doing a bad job.

[ThunderDan]

I don't know how well AJ is doing. Bishop has 36 tackles this year, AJ has 15. Right now, Morgan Burnett (34) and Bishop are leading the team in tackles. The next closest is Sam Shields at 17. I'm not saying that excuses MB from his mistakes noted here, I'm just saying he's not doing a bad job.

I agree with you. I think the issue is being brought because when a safety blows a play it mostly likely goes for a TD; if a LB blows a play the safety usually tackles the guy 20 yards farther down the field.

[pbmax]

I agree with you. I think the issue is being brought because when a safety blows a play it mostly likely goes for a TD; if a LB blows a play the safety usually tackles the guy 20 yards farther down the field.

Could also explain why Burnett is so eager to fill in toward the LOS.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I didn't see much of the last game, but I thought Hawk was effective the first couple of weeks on blitzes. He didn't get the sacks, but he got pressures and his pressures got other guys sacks. Like Woodson said last year, his goal when blitzing is to get the QB off his spot. I think Hawk was effective doing that the first couple of weeks. They didn't seem to do as much in week 3, but I'd like to see them keep using Bishop and Hawk on blitzes from the inside.

[hoosier]

McGinn commented on how much more effective Tramon Williams is in press coverage as opposed to off coverage, which he apparently has been playing exclusively since injuring his shoulder. I haven't watched enough to know if that is true, but I will trust McGinn on that. Assuming Tramon's shoulder heals in the next month and that Burnett and Peprah can figure out what they are doing and what their limitations are in approximately the same amount of time, we could be seeing the Packers D start to gel in the second half of the season. Which, if you look at it the right way, is almost better than starting out hitting on all cylinders, because things usually only go down from there.

[Upnorth]

McGinn commented on how much more effective Tramon Williams is in press coverage as opposed to off coverage, which he apparently has been playing exclusively since injuring his shoulder. I haven't watched enough to know if that is true, but I will trust McGinn on that. Assuming Tramon's shoulder heals in the next month and that Burnett and Peprah can figure out what they are doing and what their limitations are in approximately the same amount of time, we could be seeing the Packers D start to gel in the second half of the season. Which, if you look at it the right way, is almost better than starting out hitting on all cylinders, because things usually only go down from there.

If Williams is better at press then he can be the new Al Harris, and if Tramon can play like Al I will be very happy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Neal: its going to take him 3 or 4 games after his return before he'll be playing full speed. He's for the playoffs.

[Brandon494]

I agree with just about everything that's been written in this thread, except Dom's comment to the media about Hawk. He's had fewer opportunities to make plays due to fewer runs maybe, but I'd like to see him make a play (perhaps even a tackle for loss) in the every once in a while. I don't recall Hawk creating much pressure or making many plays. The play in the Saints game that was called a PI counts I guess since he can't control the fact that a bad call was made, but I'm not remembering any other play that Hawk has made other than being Steady Eddie tackler for a 5 yard gain or 10 yard reception.

When has Hawk ever made a play? What a horrible draft to have the #5 pick.

[mraynrand]

McGinn commented on how much more effective Tramon Williams is in press coverage as opposed to off coverage, which he apparently has been playing exclusively since injuring his shoulder. I haven't watched enough to know if that is true, but I will trust McGinn on that. Assuming Tramon's shoulder heals in the next month and that Burnett and Peprah can figure out what they are doing and what their limitations are in approximately the same amount of time, we could be seeing the Packers D start to gel in the second half of the season. Which, if you look at it the right way, is almost better than starting out hitting on all cylinders, because things usually only go down from there.

Williams has been lining up really deep - basically daring other teams to throw in front of him. He's still wearing the shoulder harness - if he has an A-C separation, it could be two months before that thing is feeling better. It just depends how severe it is...

[mraynrand]

When has Hawk ever made a play? What a horrible draft to have the #5 pick.

2007 against Tony Gonzales

[rbaloha1]

When has Hawk ever made a play? What a horrible draft to have the #5 pick.

Certainly not an Urlacher.

[mmmdk]

Be it DL, LBs or secondary; they've rarely played well simultaneously this season. Packers have good & even great defenders but they're not performing to their ability. All 11 need to have a higher ceiling of play on every down.

[hoosier]

When has Hawk ever made a play? What a horrible draft to have the #5 pick.


Let's assume that the following players were legitimately seen as viable candidates for the #5 spot in 2006. Which one would take today instead of Hawk?

Vernon Davis (despite what he said about playing in GB and thus not Finley)
Michael Huff
Donte Whitner
Ernie Sims
Matt Leinart
Jay Cutler

Ngata is the only guy between picks 4 and 17 that year who is better than Hawk. Let's face it, 2006 was a terrible year to have a high draft pick, and the true stars of that draft (Ngata, Hali, etc.) were all overlooked by multiple teams.

[pittstang5]

So my biggest issue so far with this defense has been the pass rush. I have an idea about helping the pass rush and wondered what others thought. How about using a three man front of either Howard or Pickett at NT, Wynn at DE then put Raji ar DE on the same side as Matthews. Seems like Mathews and Raji are getting double teamed alot...putting them on the same side should free up Wynn or the other OLB (Walden or whoever) to get in there.

[Upnorth]

So I just read on CHFF that our O is on pace for 5116 yrds and 48 Tds by Rodgers. Our D is on pace for 5372 yrds and 36 tds through the air. Both numbers are very high. The real benifit of our defence is that we have 8 picks against 2 pics by our O. If we can maintain that pace I probably should not worry as much as I have been about our D.

[Pugger]

So I just read on CHFF that our O is on pace for 5116 yrds and 48 Tds by Rodgers. Our D is on pace for 5372 yrds and 36 tds through the air. Both numbers are very high. The real benifit of our defence is that we have 8 picks against 2 pics by our O. If we can maintain that pace I probably should not worry as much as I have been about our D.

Interesting stuff, but how long can our offense keep this up? Rodgers is fabulous but also human. I would prefer our pass defense to play better.

[ND72]

So my biggest issue so far with this defense has been the pass rush. I have an idea about helping the pass rush and wondered what others thought. How about using a three man front of either Howard or Pickett at NT, Wynn at DE then put Raji ar DE on the same side as Matthews. Seems like Mathews and Raji are getting double teamed alot...putting them on the same side should free up Wynn or the other OLB (Walden or whoever) to get in there.

Teams will run the opposite way every down. :) Our pass rush does scare me, a lot. The only good side is a team is gonna have to put up 30 points to beat us, which a lot of teams simply cannot do. I will not be surprised to see Thompson focus on some top tier DL next year, and a pass rush guy from that opposite OLB. I would like to see what So'oto can bring (I'm on the bus), but he might be a 3rd down pass rush guy only, but if that is the case, well ok. Our defense scares me right now with it's ineffectiveness and inconsistency. Tramon seems timid since his injury, teams try to stay away from Woodson, Shields seems a step back from last year right now, and then we have Peprah and Burnett. I like them both, but not having Collins worries me, really felt he was just starting to get into the "ed reed/troy polamalu" area as a dominate safety in the NFC.

[mraynrand]

Someone else has to defeat a single block to generate pass rush.

On the back side, you essentially have a rookie (Burnett) and a JAG (Peprah) at safety. Woodson isn't getting any younger, and so long as he's called upon to shore up the coverage, he isn't going to be rushing the passer as much.

The good news: Burnett will get better as the season progresses, Williams will heal, and passing attacks will get hindered by the increasingly bad weather - except in those lousy domes. Consistency from wither Wynn or Wilson and something from Zombo or So-so might be enough.

[rbaloha1]

Packers defense will be severely tested this week with stud receivers.

The bye week will be important in fixing problems. IMO the personnel is fine (even with a missing Collins). Agree that players need to play better (i.e. peprah and shields).

[Upnorth]

I dont think our defense will be tested as much in this game as against carolina. Ryan is good, not great, and his recievers are good, not great. Jones and White are good, as is Gonzo, but I really don't fear this group. Ryan checks down a lot and this will play to our d's strenght. Okay maybe not strenght, but our weakness has been down feild and Ryan does not go down feild so they aren't attacking our weakness.

[denverYooper]

I dont think our defense will be tested as much in this game as against carolina. Ryan is good, not great, and his recievers are good, not great. Jones and White are good, as is Gonzo, but I really don't fear this group. Ryan checks down a lot and this will play to our d's strenght. Okay maybe not strenght, but our weakness has been down feild and Ryan does not go down feild so they aren't attacking our weakness.

From what I've seen of the Falcons this year, they've tried to go vertical a lot more but have not been very good at it.

[Fritz]

CHFF talks a lot about wide receivers as "hood ornaments." Atlanta paid a heavy price for a new hood ornament.

[hoosier]

It will be interesting to see how the Packers' secondary and pass-rush problems match up with the Falcons' protection problems. It's the age-old problem of the stoppable force meeting the moveable object.

[Upnorth]

It will be interesting to see how the Packers' secondary and pass-rush problems match up with the Falcons' protection problems. It's the age-old problem of the stoppable force meeting the moveable object.

LOL

[RashanGary]

I'm not too worried about the defense. For whatever reason, I think they're good.

[rbaloha1]

I'm not too worried about the defense. For whatever reason, I think they're good.

Is Justin Harrell returning -- is that why you are unworried?

[rbaloha1]

It will be interesting to see how the Packers' secondary and pass-rush problems match up with the Falcons' protection problems. It's the age-old problem of the stoppable force meeting the moveable object.

Good point.

[rbaloha1]

From what I've seen of the Falcons this year, they've tried to go vertical a lot more but have not been very good at it.

The board underestimated Newton -- we all know the results. Roddy White is big time. TG can still play. JJ is big and cause match-up problems.

Falcons want revenge. Expect a shoot-out with the Packers winning.

[Smeefers]

The board underestimated Newton -- we all know the results. Roddy White is big time. TG can still play. JJ is big and cause match-up problems.

Falcons want revenge. Expect a shoot-out with the Packers winning.

Come on now, the Falcons are no Cam Newton. :)

[Gunakor]

The worst two pass defenses in the NFL are Green Bay and New England. What else do these two teams have in common?

Much ado about nothing IMO. The other team is trying to win too. They have to throw early and often to stay in the game. We have the 2nd worst pass defense and the second best run defense, both due to the fact that our offense is on pace to obliterate the franchise scoring record for a season that they set last year. Maybe if AR and company would quit putting so many points on the board our opponents wouldn't throw at us so much, but we wouldn't want that either. Much ado about nothing so long as we have the bigger tally when the clock says zero. The means don't have to justify the ends.

[vince]

The worst two pass defenses in the NFL are Green Bay and New England. What else do these two teams have in common?

Much ado about nothing IMO. The other team is trying to win too. They have to throw early and often to stay in the game. We have the 2nd worst pass defense and the second best run defense, both due to the fact that our offense is on pace to obliterate the franchise scoring record for a season that they set last year. Maybe if AR and company would quit putting so many points on the board our opponents wouldn't throw at us so much, but we wouldn't want that either. Much ado about nothing so long as we have the bigger tally when the clock says zero. The means don't have to justify the ends.
I agree with this to a large extent, although Capers, McCarthy, and the players all say they still have a lot of work to do. It's a little ado about something. Playing with the lead does cause Capers to call a more conservative game and sort of concede yards while forcing the opponent to run time off the clock, but just because the other team has to pass in order to stay in the game doesn't mean the defense has to make mistakes and bite on fleaflickers, etc.. They're not as good without Neal, Zombo and Collins. Maybe So'oto can be disruptive in spurts. Defense today is about points and turnovers. They're in teh middle of the pack in points allowed and at the top in turnovers. If they keep that up, and even improve some by not allowing as many big plays, they'll be fine. It's hard to foresee anyone slowing this offense down at this point. The D needs to be good enough and so far they have been.

[mmmdk]

I can say this for sure; if Packers lose to the Falcons on SNF then this thread will get red hot!

[hoosier]

I agree with this to a large extent, although Capers, McCarthy, and the players all say they still have a lot of work to do. It's a little ado about something. Playing with the lead does cause Capers to call a more conservative game and sort of concede yards while forcing the opponent to run time off the clock, but just because the other team has to pass in order to stay in the game doesn't mean the defense has to make mistakes and bite on fleaflickers, etc.. They're not as good without Neal, Zombo and Collins. Maybe So'oto can be disruptive in spurts. Defense today is about points and turnovers. They're in teh middle of the pack in points allowed and at the top in turnovers. If they keep that up, and even improve some by not allowing as many big plays, they'll be fine. It's hard to foresee anyone slowing this offense down at this point. The D needs to be good enough and so far they have been.

Agree with all of this except the bolded sentence, which I think requires more nuance. The offense will clearly carry the Packers this year, and nobody is going to develop a way of stopping it on a regular basis. But there will be times, and maybe even entire games, when the offense isn't clicking or someone does manage to throw a monkeywrench in the well oiled machine. Assuming they have the kind of success we all expect of them during the regular season, the question will be how to avoid a situation like what happened to that Patriots team against the NYG in the SB. They were also a juggernaut that wasn't stopped once during the regular season, and whose defense was just good enough...until they ran into a team that could expose their Achilles heel in pass protection. The Packers have a good enough offense and enough holes that I can easily imagine them following in the 2007 Patriots path--blow through the regular season and then get tripped up in the playoffs.

[ThunderDan]

I can say this for sure; if Packers lose to the Falcons on SNF then this thread will get red hot!

Why mmmdk? We lost to ATL in ATL last year and won the Super Bowl. We would still be 4-1 if we lost on Sunday. That wouldn't be the end of the world for the Packers.

I don't think we will lose, but this is one of the games before the start of the season I thought they could very likely lose. ATL is a good football team. It is hard to go 12-4 or better for a season in the NFL.

[denverYooper]

Guys, don't worry! Aikman has the Packers D 10th in the Aikman efficiency ratings! (http://aikman.com/AikmanEfficiencyRatings/tabid/274/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/17/Aikman-Efficiency-Ratings-2011-As-of-Week-4.aspx)

$$ ":

The 4-0 Packers (10th in the Aikmans, 28th in the NFL) and the 3-1 49ers (2nd in the Aikmans, 17th in the NFL) are the top “Aikman” defenses at the moment in the sense that they rank the most spots higher in the current Aikmans than they do when measured just by yards.

The man has sure a way with words.

[rbaloha1]

I can say this for sure; if Packers lose to the Falcons on SNF then this thread will get red hot!

Maybe a loss wakes-up the defense.

[rbaloha1]

The worst two pass defenses in the NFL are Green Bay and New England. What else do these two teams have in common?

Much ado about nothing IMO. The other team is trying to win too. They have to throw early and often to stay in the game. We have the 2nd worst pass defense and the second best run defense, both due to the fact that our offense is on pace to obliterate the franchise scoring record for a season that they set last year. Maybe if AR and company would quit putting so many points on the board our opponents wouldn't throw at us so much, but we wouldn't want that either. Much ado about nothing so long as we have the bigger tally when the clock says zero. The means don't have to justify the ends.

The season is 4 games young. Both teams cannot have poor defenses in December and expect to win a super bowl. Stat freaks -- Has any team won a Super Bowl with the worst pass defense in term of yards per game? My guess is no.

[mmmdk]

Why mmmdk? We lost to ATL in ATL last year and won the Super Bowl. We would still be 4-1 if we lost on Sunday. That wouldn't be the end of the world for the Packers.

I don't think we will lose, but this is one of the games before the start of the season I thought they could very likely lose. ATL is a good football team. It is hard to go 12-4 or better for a season in the NFL.

Sorry for the late reply. I merely insinuated that a loss on sunday versus Falcons would add some gasoline to the fire burning underneath the Packers defense. I believe this thread is about Packers defensive woes and a true run at a fifth Lombardi trophy entails an upgrade of play by the defense. So if Packer defenders doesn't bring the heat come sunday(s) then this thread will bring that heat...:smile:

Other than that; I agree with your post. Turner is a back that can do damage and hence set up the "not-so-HOF-like" Mr.Ryan to do his damage to the Pack.

[pbmax]

Tramon has now stated he is still recovering from the shoulder injury and it changed how he played last week.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-williams-hoping-to-shoulder-more-of-a-load-131304949.html

[Upnorth]

I can say this for sure; if Packers lose to the Falcons on SNF then this thread will get red hot!

Assumning it is the D which costs us the game, then yes this thread will get very active (or a thread like it). I can't see ATL beating us, but stranger things have happened.
I keep going back and forth between our 'pass d sucks' and 'it is designed to create turn overs'. Either way unless they tighten up some they could easily cost us a game at some point.

[mmmdk]

Assumning it is the D which costs us the game, then yes this thread will get very active (or a thread like it). I can't see ATL beating us, but stranger things have happened.
I keep going back and forth between our 'pass d sucks' and 'it is designed to create turn overs'. Either way unless they tighten up some they could easily cost us a game at some point.

...don't tell me our offense is in trouble too? :wink:

I think you're spot on, upnorthster :mrgreen:

[Upnorth]

...don't tell me our offense is in trouble too? :wink:

I think you're spot on, upnorthster :mrgreen:

Thanks brother! Is there any better feeling than a stranger half way around the world agreeing with you on a internet forum about a football team? Yes, but man it does feel nice!!

[Packers4Glory]

Just sitting here thinking...man if this defense can get it together....just think how hard it would be to beat them. It's tough now, but the defense has let teams stay in games.

I expect the pass defense to give up a few more yards simply because right now the offense is scoring at such a high rate, teams are playing from behind. THey just need to figure out a pass rush so they can Tee off on these suckas

[Smidgeon]

Does anyone have an up to date pass rating differential list?

[Upnorth]

Just sitting here thinking...man if this defense can get it together....just think how hard it would be to beat them. It's tough now, but the defense has let teams stay in games.

I expect the pass defense to give up a few more yards simply because right now the offense is scoring at such a high rate, teams are playing from behind. THey just need to figure out a pass rush so they can Tee off on these suckas

If we could get consistent pressure with a four man rush we would put people away in the first half of most games. Our offense is amazing, but without the rush and watch our secondary peek in the backfield we are so susceptible to the big play.