Random thoughts...

[packers11]

- Thought the Hawk play was actually funny, don't know why so many people are so pissed off...

- Rodgers is on fire, and really, I haven't seen him play this good in his career, but sometimes I feel like hes to scared to throw an INT... Sometimes I wish he would just throw it up to Finley 1 on 1 like the Arizona Playoff game when he gets into trouble on a third down near our 50... it would essential be like a punt anyway if intercepted...

-I feel like Finley will want to move on from this team after this year, just a hunch... I think hes more interested in STATS and being the best statistical TE ever then winning multiple rings... again its just a hunch... I think he knows this offense is not designed to get him 100+ rec a year which I think he may want...

-Green Bay has won 12 in a row... I honestly forgot what it feels like to lose a "close" game, and am not in the mood to feel it anytime soon...

-This team has a good chance to repeat if they can stay healthy... (knocking on wood)

-Sometimes I feel like MM doesn't put the peddle to the medal against inferior teams... how do they score 0 in the 2nd half??? Wasn't impressed at all with the offense..

-Mason Crosby... Can you say solid as hell without getting any credit

-Packers need to find a replacement CB for bush asap, when woodson retires, bush is not the answer at the #3 spot...

-Last but not least, your all going to kill me for saying this, but its bitter sweet the brewers lost, I am from Rhode Island and I listen to Wisconsin radio everyday, I can't stand baseball, and I really could care less about their input on the Brewers... I want packer talk 24/7...

I haven't posted in awhile, been just observing the form, but feel free to input ...

[channtheman]

The offense sputtering in the second half seemed to me to be a lot more of the players not concentrating (Jordy drop, Jennings drop) rather than MM going into a shell.

[Joemailman]

I think most people think what Hawk did was funny. Those people do n ot work in Goodell's office.

Even in high school Rodgers did not like to turn the ball over. Throwing it up and hoping for the best isn't really his way.

I agree that Finley may decide to move on. I think he wants to be the guy. Here he'll never be more than one of a great group.

MM did not tell Jennings to turn a potential TD pass into an INT. He did not tell Jordy to turn upfield before securing a pass on 3rd and 2.

I think the Packers have high hopes for Davon House at CB.

[rbaloha1]

The offense sputtering in the second half seemed to me to be a lot more of the players not concentrating (Jordy drop, Jennings drop) rather than MM going into a shell.

Agreed. Young talented veteran team that knows how to focus and bring it when required.

[red]

I think the Packers have high hopes for Davon House at CB.

bingo

i hope he's able to get on the field soon so we can see what he's got

we're in good shape if fin decides to move on. if he wants to go elsewhere, we slap the tag on him and get at least a 1st and a 3rd for him in return

[MadtownPacker]

Seems like INTs get to be a habit so better that he doesnt get a carefree attitude about them.

[denverYooper]

I don't think he'll just start chucking it up to Finley unless they need a lot of points in a hurry, the other team is locking down coverage, defenders are closing in, and Rodgers absolutely has to do something to advance the ball. He's more Brady than Big Ben.

The other thing about the AZ game was that was a breakout game for Fin. Not sure he was drawing as much attention back then.

[Guiness]

Great post packers11 (what does the 11 stand for, anyways?)

As long as Shields continues to develop, I'm not too concerned about our 3rd CB. It's hard to see what we've got, and for a guy to develop as the 4th guy, rarely on the field. I'm pretty sure Lee and Bush aren't going to be it, but House is back there, and you can be sure we'll have a parade of UDFA's auditioning next year. Obviously, we're not going to see someone step up until CW is gone, and who knows how long that will be?

[pbmax]

Great post packers11 (what does the 11 stand for, anyways?)

Has to be Ty Detmer, doesn't it?

[King Friday]

I hope Finley goes somewhere else. I'd rather pay the money to Clay/Raji/Tramon.

[Guiness]

Has to be Ty Detmer, doesn't it?

That was Ty Detmer's number? I know the team pretty well, watching the comings and goings of backup OL with interest, but don't pretend to remember what number Ty wore!

[VegasPackFan]

Rodgers is playing football at a level very few ever reach. I think he is doing just fine and we don't need him to start Favreing it down the field on a whim.

[KYPack]

That was Ty Detmer's number? I know the team pretty well, watching the comings and goings of backup OL with interest, but don't pretend to remember what number Ty wore!

Ty was 11 on that squad.

#12 was the (in)famous TJ Rubley.

[packers11]

Has to be Ty Detmer, doesn't it?

just my favorite number and coincidentally when I started to play games online (11 years ago)... nothing too special - I use 11 as gamertags and on this site, when I first made the name I figured everyone would have "packers4"... 11 is unique

[Fritz]

This is an appropriate place to comment on this: I just watched highlights on youtube of a number of Packer games from 1973, '75, and '77. Let me just tell all you young bucks out there, the next time you want to really lay into Thompson or McCarthy or Finley or whoever, just go to youtube and watch that shit. Cuz shit is was. Those Packer teams of the 70's were awful, just awful. It was a talentless desert, stoked in part by the championship teams of the 60's not being replenished (Lombardi takes some blame for that; look at his drafts of the mid to late 60's), and in part by stupid decisions about who should coach (Dan Devine, Bart Starr), sealed with terrible personnel moves (the infamous Hadl trade, the drafting of such first-round lights as Mike McCoy and Fred Carr and the like).

Those were some bad, bad football teams. Enjoy this team this year. Enjoy that on most Sundays your team has more talent than the other team. Enjoy that your head coach gets the players to play hard (if you wanna see someone dogging it, watch highlight reels of the early '70's).

[mraynrand]

(if you wanna see someone hot-dogging it, watch highlight reels of the '70's).


Fixed - Keep your eye on the sideline!

https://packershalloffame.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Ezra-Johnson-wmark-3.jpg

[mraynrand]

I just watched highlights on youtube of a number of Packer games from 1973, '75, and '77.

That must have been a 30 second video.

[mraynrand]

I think the all-time low for me were the '85 and '86 seasons. Watching 'bounce pass,' noodle-arm Jim Zorn trying to get the ball out in the flat to James Lofton was unbearable - pun intended.

Seeing the three word press conference from Forrest Gregg "You saw it" after a drubbing in the Metrodome - the thought was - it can't get any worse, right?

Packer football right now is very good.

[Patler]

It was a talentless desert, stoked in part by the championship teams of the 60's not being replenished (Lombardi takes some blame for that; look at his drafts of the mid to late 60's), and in part by stupid decisions about who should coach (Dan Devine, Bart Starr), sealed with terrible personnel moves (the infamous Hadl trade, the drafting of such first-round lights as Mike McCoy and Fred Carr and the like).

Are you complaining about Fred Carr? Carr was an outstanding linebacker. Made several Pro Bowls and would have made more if he had been on a decent team. The Packers were so bad they were mostly overlooked for post season awards, but Fred Carr was a very good one. The Packers Hall of Fame has him on their all-modern-era team, and the GBPG had him on their all-century team in 1999, along with Nitschke and Dave Robinson as the linebackers.

Mike McCoy actually turned out to be a decent DT. Not the dominant player people thought he would be, but decent. He was a no-brainer pick, as one of the most dominant D-linemen while at Notre Dame, even was in consideration for the Heisman. His NFL career started slowly, and he missed time with injuries. After about his fourth year, he became pretty good. Again, on a better team his value would have been more appreciated. The Packers traded him to Oakland for a first round pick that they used to draft John Anderson. They also got a couple more players and/or draft picks for him, so he had a lot of value even after playing seven years in Green Bay. The Packers said it was a trade they didn't want to make, but had to to rebuild their future.

Their big problem was not finding a successor to Bart Starr at QB. Lombardi drafted Don Horn in the first round to be the guy, and he didn't work out. Later, a first was wasted on Tagge, then another on Rich Campbell.

[woodbuck27]

- Thought the Hawk play was actually funny, don't know why so many people are so pissed off...

- Rodgers is on fire, and really, I haven't seen him play this good in his career, but sometimes I feel like hes to scared to throw an INT... Sometimes I wish he would just throw it up to Finley 1 on 1 like the Arizona Playoff game when he gets into trouble on a third down near our 50... it would essential be like a punt anyway if intercepted...

-I feel like Finley will want to move on from this team after this year, just a hunch... I think hes more interested in STATS and being the best statistical TE ever then winning multiple rings... again its just a hunch... I think he knows this offense is not designed to get him 100+ rec a year which I think he may want...

-Green Bay has won 12 in a row... I honestly forgot what it feels like to lose a "close" game, and am not in the mood to feel it anytime soon...

-This team has a good chance to repeat if they can stay healthy... (knocking on wood)

-Sometimes I feel like MM doesn't put the peddle to the medal against inferior teams... how do they score 0 in the 2nd half??? Wasn't impressed at all with the offense..

-Mason Crosby... Can you say solid as hell without getting any credit

-Packers need to find a replacement CB for bush asap, when woodson retires, bush is not the answer at the #3 spot...

-Last but not least, your all going to kill me for saying this, but its bitter sweet the brewers lost, I am from Rhode Island and I listen to Wisconsin radio everyday, I can't stand baseball, and I really could care less about their input on the Brewers... I want packer talk 24/7...

I haven't posted in awhile, been just observing the form, but feel free to input ...

RE: Aaron Rodgers:

sometimes I feel like hes to scared to throw an INT... Sometimes I wish he would just throw it up to Finley 1 on 1 like the Arizona Playoff game when he gets into trouble on a third down near our 50... it would essential be like a punt anyway if intercepted... packers11

Comment: Thinking Brett Favre and NO. A solid QB has to secure the pigskin. The objective concern is keeping yor offense on the field as much as possible to win the battle of the clock and hoefully securing that also out score the opposition. That is the fundamentl strategy in this game we love called football.

I feel like Finley will want to move on from this team after this year, just a hunch... I think hes more interested in STATS and being the best statistical TE ever then winning multiple rings... again its just a hunch... I think he knows this offense is not designed to get him 100+ rec a year which I think he may want... packers11

Comment. We need evidence of that and if that is the actul case. Screw him. The fundamentle principle of a good attitude with the GREEN BAY PACKERS is that no player is bigger than the primary objective that spirits team overall morale and results recorded as wins in trhe schedule.

All else is a distraction.

Mason Crosby... Can you say solid as hell without getting any credit packers11

Mason rosby has ... ARRIVED! He just has to stick with whatever he has going on mentally and get errr done. Determine consistency.

Nice observations for us to discuss here. Thanks packers11.

PACKERS FOREVER!

[Pugger]

Are you complaining about Fred Carr? Carr was an outstanding linebacker. Made several Pro Bowls and would have made more if he had been on a decent team. The Packers were so bad they were mostly overlooked for post season awards, but Fred Carr was a very good one. The Packers Hall of Fame has him on their all-modern-era team, and the GBPG had him on their all-century team in 1999, along with Nitschke and Dave Robinson as the linebackers.

Mike McCoy actually turned out to be a decent DT. Not the dominant player people thought he would be, but decent. He was a no-brainer pick, as one of the most dominant D-linemen while at Notre Dame, even was in consideration for the Heisman. His NFL career started slowly, and he missed time with injuries. After about his fourth year, he became pretty good. Again, on a better team his value would have been more appreciated. The Packers traded him to Oakland for a first round pick that they used to draft John Anderson. They also got a couple more players and/or draft picks for him, so he had a lot of value even after playing seven years in Green Bay. The Packers said it was a trade they didn't want to make, but had to to rebuild their future.

Their big problem was not finding a successor to Bart Starr at QB. Lombardi drafted Don Horn in the first round to be the guy, and he didn't work out. Later, a first was wasted on Tagge, then another on Rich Campbell.

The problem was also having the Executive Committee's nose in football operations and hiring Starr before he had a clue what he was doing as our HC (and keeping him in that role for years even tho we kept losing). We had a smattering of pretty good players but they were few and far between. The Hadl disaster handcuffed the team big time and our drafts were a joke most of the time in those 20 years until Harlan hired Wolf. I read somewhere that when Wolf was hired he was shocked at the country club atmosphere at 1265 under Infante. Thankfully he changed the way things were run and we've had a lot of success ever since.

[pbmax]

I've always thought the country-club atmosphere comment was a feint, a nod to a symptom, perhaps, but not the real reason. I think the larger reasons he got canned were 1) going 4-12 in his demo year in front of Wolf and 2) going 20-28 in all his other games, including his good year.

This is just a feeling from far away, while I was still following the Browns. The defense had some players, but the cupboard was pretty bare.

[Fritz]

Okay, Patler, I'll give you Fred Carr. But how about taking the mighty Bill Lueck at the end of the first in the same draft when guys like Charlie Sanders and Elvin Bethea and Ken Stabler were all available? Maybe a better example would be the 1977 #1 pick, ninth overall - Mike Butler.

Mike McCoy was okay, sure. But he was the #2 overall pick. And a lousy one at that spot, just as Tony Mandarich was later. Names like Mel Blount and Jack Reynolds were available.

Sure, there was the occasional talent. But it was occasional. For every Johnny Gray or John Anderson there a half dozen Dave Pureifoys. Because we liked the team, maybe we overvalued guys like Rich McGeorge. Heck, maybe we overvalued Johnny Gray or John Anderson or Mike McCoy or Steve Odom.

Those were some awful teams. You and I watched them and followed them. Bart Starr was in way over his head, as was Dan Devine. How he got that one good season out that team with Scott Hunter as QB is beyond me. I think you're right that perhaps one reason, besides the ones I named, was the elusive search for Starr's replacement. Don Horn. Scott Hunter. Jim Del Gaizo. Rich Campbell. Jerry Tagge. John Hadl. David Whitehurst. Randy Wright. I'd say Majkowski and Dickey were good QB's but had little talent around them. Certainly Dickey had some offensive talent around him at times, but the defense was like a sieve.

Ah, thank goodness Ron Wolf, and later Ted Thompson, showed up. It all starts with the GM.

[Fritz]

I just looked over Lombardi's drafts. He got some gold in later rounds, guys like Ken Bowman, but he drafted lots and lots and lots of clunkers. The foundation was crumbling even as the team was winning SB #2.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/draft.htm

[pbmax]

I have wondered why the Packers didn't go the route of the Bears after Starr and the unsuccessful search for his heir. Why not build a monster defense and hope for the best at QB?

As that list of team I posted a while back shows, true Pro Bowl/All Pro QBs happen about once every generation for most franchises, if even that often (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/career-passing.htm). While the success rate is changing in the modern era, the Packers were lucky compared to many franchises to find Dickey after Starr. Some teams wait much longer to find someone effective.

[Upnorth]

One thing pbmax's top 5 qb's thread taught me was how lucky we are at qb. Before then I thought only having 5 good qbs over 90 years was very poor. Now I know how lucky we are at qb over the years.
Regarding the sucsess of modern qb's I think it has more to do with rules than scheme. A decade ago a very good qb had a 90 passer rating, now it is 100. I think a lot of the new phenoms would look a lot worse if receivers could be interfered with like they used to.

[Patler]

Okay, Patler, I'll give you Fred Carr. But how about taking the mighty Bill Lueck at the end of the first in the same draft when guys like Charlie Sanders and Elvin Bethea and Ken Stabler were all available? Maybe a better example would be the 1977 #1 pick, ninth overall - Mike Butler.

Mike McCoy was okay, sure. But he was the #2 overall pick. And a lousy one at that spot, just as Tony Mandarich was later. Names like Mel Blount and Jack Reynolds were available.

Sure, there was the occasional talent. But it was occasional. For every Johnny Gray or John Anderson there a half dozen Dave Pureifoys. Because we liked the team, maybe we overvalued guys like Rich McGeorge. Heck, maybe we overvalued Johnny Gray or John Anderson or Mike McCoy or Steve Odom.

Those were some awful teams. You and I watched them and followed them. Bart Starr was in way over his head, as was Dan Devine. How he got that one good season out that team with Scott Hunter as QB is beyond me. I think you're right that perhaps one reason, besides the ones I named, was the elusive search for Starr's replacement. Don Horn. Scott Hunter. Jim Del Gaizo. Rich Campbell. Jerry Tagge. John Hadl. David Whitehurst. Randy Wright. I'd say Majkowski and Dickey were good QB's but had little talent around them. Certainly Dickey had some offensive talent around him at times, but the defense was like a sieve.

Ah, thank goodness Ron Wolf, and later Ted Thompson, showed up. It all starts with the GM.

I don't disagree with your premise, just your examples. In my opinion, there are much better examples of where they went wrong than with Carr, McCoy, Lueck and Butler; all of whom had decent NFL careers.

Funny how we focus on different guys! :lol:

McCoy? - Not even close to a Mandarich-like failure, in my opinion. He started in Green Bay for seven years, was their most effective d-lineman for a good portion of that time, and after 7 years was traded for a first round draft pick used to draft John Anderson. Plus they got some other guys for him in the trade, too. I look at McCoy's draft value as being more like Hawk at #5 than Mandarich. You hoped to get a future HOFer, but at least you got a good player. When a guy starts for you for seven years, then brings a first round draft pick after that, it is hardly a failed draft pick.

There is hardly a draft that goes by that you can't look back later and find someone you should have chosen instead of someone you did pick early in the draft. Sure, there were better players than Bill Lueck, but again Lueck was good enough to start a long time in Green Bay. Butler was decent, too. Started for 5 years or so, went to the USFL to make some money, then came back to play in Green Bay again. Both Lueck and Butler were decent players, certainly not the worst of the draft picks made by the Packers at the time.

Dave Pureifory?? One of my favorites of that era!!! A lower draft choice who became a very good pass rusher and played in the NFL for 11 years. Being a lower pick, he was an example of one thing they did right, not wrong. The traded him too soon in my opinion, but he did play 6 of his 11 years in GB. Started and played very well for the Lions for several years after going there. By the way, do you remember that he did some kicking for the Packers?

Failures were guys like Horn, Tagge, Campbell who either never played much, or who played very poorly when given chance after chance, (Horn I could never figure out. Had an absolutely fantastic 5 TD game, then sort of faded away. I never figured out his problem.)

Look at the 1962 draft - Earl Gros in the 1st round, and nothing else. Gros only spent a couple years in GB, then was packaged with Jim Ringo and sent to the Eagles for LeRoy Caffey.

Other examples, in my opinion, of personnel failures by the Packers during that time:

Bruce Clark at #4. The guy told them he would go to Canada rather than play in GB, so naturally they drafted him.

Lloyd Voss - 1st round 1964, never established himself after 2 years in GB and was traded away, although for a 1st round pick as I recall.

Rich Moore at #12 in 1968 - played some but was never nearly as good as McCoy would be.

Bob Hyland at #9 in '67 - actually had a long career, just not much in GB. Was traded to the Bears along with Elijah Pitts and LeRoy Caffey for the draft pick that brought McCoy. (Now, the Packers are criticized for trading a low draft pick to the Vikings a couple years ago!)

Barry Smith is another better example of a failure, in my opinion. They kept him three years, and he did little of nothing during that time

Too many 2nd round failures. Guys like Bradly, Dunaway, Mike Hunt, Steve Atkins. Bill Bain they may have given up on too quickly. Traded him after just one season, I think. Bain went on to play a long time in the NFL.

Barty Smith - hung around for quite a while with his 3.5 yds/carry average, but I could never understand why. Maybe it was the line and not Smith.

Ah, what a great time the '70s and '80s were to be a packer fan. The least little success was just so rewarding!!! :lol:

[Patler]

I have wondered why the Packers didn't go the route of the Bears after Starr and the unsuccessful search for his heir. Why not build a monster defense and hope for the best at QB?

As that list of team I posted a while back shows, true Pro Bowl/All Pro QBs happen about once every generation for most franchises, if even that often (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/career-passing.htm). While the success rate is changing in the modern era, the Packers were lucky compared to many franchises to find Dickey after Starr. Some teams wait much longer to find someone effective.

A couple years ago I did a summary of how many years they actually didn't have at least a decent QB as their expected starter, and it wasn't nearly as many as it seemed at the time. Majkowski and Dickey filled a lot of the void between Starr and Favre, but unfortunately each lost a lot of games due to injury.

David Whitehurst was not the greatest QB, but in a lot of ways I was "OK" with him playing. Didn't try to do what he wasn't capable of, but was a very determined competitor. I always thought he gave the team his best effort anyway, and didn't do a lot of dumb things.

[Fritz]

You could get have success with Dickey or Majkowski and maybe even Whitehurst, if you had some talent around them. But outside a couple years in which the offense featured guys like Lofton and Jefferson, the front office didn't give those guys much to work with, especially on defense.

[Pugger]

If we would have had any sort of a defense those years when we had Dickey would have been a lot more successful. We could score at will but couldn't stop a Pop Warner offense.

[Patler]

If we would have had any sort of a defense those years when we had Dickey would have been a lot more successful. We could score at will but couldn't stop a Pop Warner offense.

Frustrating, but entertaining during the Dickey years.

[Fritz]

If you can stand it, go back and watch that playoff game in 1982 against the Cowboys, and remember too that the Pack had won an earlier playoff game against what was then the St. Louis Cardinals.

The Cowboys went up and down the field, seemingly at will. Dickey would get the team into the end zone, and zip! The Cowboys would come right back and score. I still shudder.

[Patler]

The whole season in 1983 was that way.

offense - 429 points scored, 26.8 points/game
defense - 439 points surrendered, 27.44 points/game.

Average of 54 points scored in each game.

Lofton had 1300 yards on just 58 receptions, for 22.4 yards/reception.
Dickey threw for 4400+ yards.

[Fritz]

Dickey had a lot of interceptions, too. Three in the Dallas game. But my perception is that he was often throwing out of a kind of desperation to keep up with the other team. Heck, in the big St. Louis playoff victory, the Cards only scored sixteen points, but man, did they ever have a lot of yards.

Had Dickey had better knees and a better defense, he might've been seen as Starr's successor, instead of all of us having to wait for Favre.

[pbmax]

If Richard Rodgers hadn't caught the Rodgers Hail Mary in Detroit, good chance that Davante Adams comes down with it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFWnW7mG1A

[Joemailman]

Bears have released kicker Chris Blewitt. This had to happen.

[cheesner]

If Richard Rodgers hadn't caught the Rodgers Hail Mary in Detroit, good chance that Davante Adams comes down with it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFWnW7mG1A

Did it really take you 8 years to come up with that come-back?

[pbmax]

Did it really take you 8 years to come up with that come-back?

I had two posts ready to go and I really wanted the bring back the random thought of the day, so I bumped both threads.

[pbmax]

Michael Cohen is leaving GB for an East Coast gig. He did a podcast to say goodbye and revealed some interesting things about himself and the folks in GB.

He suffers from bouts of depression and being in a completely new town doesn't seem like it was easy. If you read a bit between the lines, it seems like this combo made this job a bit of a lonely outpost.

He underwent two knee surgeries while in GB and Pat McKenzie did both. Also worked with McKenzie's chief PT person at Bellin.

Closest advisers on the team were Matthews, Adams, Bulaga and King. King started off the relationship by asking of reporters had to pass a test on football like they do at the combine to become team reporters :lol: Said all three, especially Adams and Bulaga, went out of their way to help him understand what we had seen on the field the previous Sunday. Joe Whitt would send corrections by email on Tuesday, his off day :D

Liked the head of the Packers PR/Comms team, whose name I cannot recall now. VP of Communications though.

Its a good listen, even if you don't regularly listen to podcasts, I'd give it a try. You can just use your computer here: https://soundcloud.com/user-120486194

[mraynrand]

The problems the Packers face are nothing compared to the horror in Houston over the past two years, and I'm not talking about the weather.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9g6746X4AAjYWW.jpg

[pbmax]

And I thought baseball had the most immaturity given all the drafted HS players.

Then again, what does Chris Paul have to lose at this point?