The Raiders

[Freak Out]

Is Al still calling the shots?

[denverYooper]

LOL

[Freak Out]

Palmer could be the second coming of JP.....although I don't remember Al giving up draft picks for him though.

[Guiness]

Oakland is thought to be poking around at Palmer, eh?

I wonder if that would satisfy him? A month ago, I would have said 'out of the frying pan, into the fire' about a move from the Bengals to the Raiders. I'm sure the Raiders franchise is still largely a mess, but I wonder which direction it's going to head in?

He offered the opportunity, he might continue to stay home, but reports are he really wants to play.

edit: just saw the article @ PFT. Two first rounders???? For a 32yr old QB? They traded their 1st in 2012 (only pick in the first 4 rounds they had left) and a 2013 2nd rounder that could become a 1st!

Wow. Just wow. Shade of John Hadl...

[Guiness]

JP? As in Losman?

A quick google tells me he was a Raider in '09. Who knew? Here's the entire Wikepedia entry related to his play there:

Losman made his first Oakland appearance against the Denver Broncos on December 20, 2009, throwing one incomplete pass after both QBs Charlie Frye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Frye) and JaMarcus Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JaMarcus_Russell) suffered injuries and had to leave the game.

[Freak Out]

Jim Plunkett.

[Freak Out]

I was in the service with a guy years ago who claims to have witnessed Al Davis working out Jim Plunkett along the freeway prior to signing him.

[Guiness]

I was in the service with a guy years ago who claims to have witnessed Al Davis working out Jim Plunkett along the freeway prior to signing him.

Did he jump over a Mustang?

[Freak Out]

Did he jump over a Mustang?

AMC Gremlin.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Well, the Raiders hate draft picks apparently.

Although if Palmer comes in and helps lead them to a division title and the playoffs, it will be a great move.

[MadScientist]

Well, the Raiders hate draft picks apparently.

Although if Palmer comes in and helps lead them to a division title and the playoffs, it will be a great move.

They must, they have used up their 1-4 for next year plus a 1 or 2 in '13. About as anti TT as possible. If they win a SB this year or next then it's all good, but the lack of picks could kill them 2014-2016 unless they get real lucky

[MadtownPacker]

Well, the Raiders hate draft picks apparently.

Although if Palmer comes in and helps lead them to a division title and the playoffs, it will be a great move.
Reading that if the win a playoff game it is 2012 and 2013 1st rounders. Craziest part is they could meet in the playoffs.

[Guiness]

Reading that if the win a playoff game it is 2012 and 2013 1st rounders. Craziest part is they could meet in the playoffs.

LOL! I guess if you see Mike Brown telling Cincy's coach to go for it on 4th and 10 at their own 20, you know he wants to upgrade the pick!

[woodbuck27]

Did he jump over a Mustang?

hahaaha. I love your Canuck humour.

[Freak Out]

I wonder if they called Favre? :)

[hoosier]

Don't laugh. If the Chargers underperform again, the Raiders could actually make the playoffs for the first time since like 1980. Surely that is worth two 1s!

[Brandon494]

They over payed for Palmer but I like the move.

[MadtownPacker]

They over payed for Palmer but I like the move.

So it's official? Raider lubbers over here was saying they had picked up David Garrard.

[MadScientist]

So it's official? Raider lubbers over here was saying they had picked up David Garrard.
They'd have to pick up Garrard. With the back injury he can't pick him self up.

Palmer for an insane amount is a done deal.

[sheepshead]

12-15 teams start every season NOT knowing who their starting QB is gonna be. This is an opportunity to not be one of those teams for a while. The price of poker is high at that table(just ask the bears) but I think I would have done it too.

[Guiness]

So it's official? Raider lubbers over here was saying they had picked up David Garrard.

Garrard had back surgery.

[MadtownPacker]

Garrard had back surgery.
Well thats fucked up.

This kinda of shit is what happens when you listen to raiders fans.

[smuggler]

Yep. This is a done deal. I don't know when he'll be playing, but Palmer is their starter once he's in game shape. a 2012 1st round pick and a 2013 2nd rounder that becomes a 1st if the Raiders win a playoff game this season.

[Upnorth]

Palmer is an upgrade if healthy. The last few years he has had some mobility issues that have cost his team. Do the raiders have a good pass block oline? Who got Campbell killed? I think the biggest benefit here is the bengals. They can help dalton with oline and a skil player with this trade. There d is already very good.

[MadtownPacker]

Yep. This is a done deal. I don't know when he'll be playing, but Palmer is their starter once he's in game shape. a 2012 1st round pick and a 2013 2nd rounder that becomes a 1st if the Raiders win a playoff game this season.

He will be playing in Lambeau for sure this Dec.

[KYPack]

He will be playing in Lambeau for sure this Dec.

The Cincy papers are saying the Raiders must get in the AFCCG for the second pick to morph into a 1.

A 1 and a 2, two 1's, either way it's a huge price. The old crypt-keeper would be proud of that deal.

[Guiness]

Well thats fucked up.

This kinda of shit is what happens when you listen to raiders fans.

Indeed. That'll learn ya.

According the Garrad's agent, Oakland did contact him.
http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2011-10-17/story/agent-accuses-jaguars-shirking-bill-cutting-david-garrard?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jacksonville%2FksHE+%28Jackso nville+Jaguars+%2B+Jaguars+News+-+Jacksonville.com+and+The+Florida+Times-Union%29

[pbmax]

I read the conditional pick upgrades if they win one playoff game? That fits the AFCC game scenario if you assume a division win and first round bye.

Better question: If you were Reggie McKenzie and the Raiders now had a Ditka-Saints-Ricky-Williams draft coming up, do you still want the job?

Best question: Wolf was supposed to be on the Raiders committee to scout for GM candidates. Did he know about this? Did he encourage it?

[pbmax]

PFT says its Chamionship Game or no conditional pick upgrade. KYPack's Cincinnati sources are confirmed: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/18/palmer-pick-upgrades-only-if-raiders-win-divisional-playoff-game/

[Patler]

Better question: If you were Reggie McKenzie and the Raiders now had a Ditka-Saints-Ricky-Williams draft coming up, do you still want the job?

Best question: Wolf was supposed to be on the Raiders committee to scout for GM candidates. Did he know about this? Did he encourage it?

Those are very good questions. If McKenzie really believes in a build through the draft policy, he would be going there without the ability to enact his philosophy for the next two drafts. Essentially, his success will be judged on his ability to perform under someone else' philosophy.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The team has been down for so long, a big move to make the playoffs would do wonders for that fan base.

I heard some guys on the radio talking about how this jeapordizes the long term of the Raiders org without those 2 first round picks potentially. It's not like first rounders are a guaranteed star or anything. Hell, how many 1st round busts/avg players have we seen over the years? Look at how the draft was when we got Hawk, there's what, a third of the top half of that class that start right now? First round picks can be overrated.

[pbmax]

Those are very good questions. If McKenzie really believes in a build through the draft policy, he would be going there without the ability to enact his philosophy for the next two drafts. Essentially, his success will be judged on his ability to perform under someone else' philosophy.

Given that he has been waiting for some time and several interviews, I would guess he would be very tempted if he got final authority. But now that the coach (from all reporting, it was Hue Jackson that drove and delivered this deal) has had his hand in the personnel pie, its not at all clear the GM will get that authority. The wife and son of Al might be tempted to try to split authority in an unconventional fashion.

[Guiness]

Sportsline had a chat today. I asked if they thought this trade was like the Ditka for Ricki Williams move - Oakland made the offer and Brown said 'How much? ok' and the concensus was yes.

[packrulz]

Carson Palmer trade could set back Raiders for years
PUBLISHED Tuesday, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:58 pm EDT

Sporting News

The Oakland Raiders paid a steep price to acquire quarterback Carson Palmer before Tuesday's NFL trading deadline. As the team's first huge personnel move since the passing of owner Al Davis, however, it is a desperate decision that will only be met with disappointment.

By sending a first-round pick in 2012 and a second-round pick in 2013 to the Cincinnati Bengals, the Raiders (4-2) have gone all in for this season. It's not enough now that Palmer helps guide them to the playoffs this season, but because they've mortgaged a significant amount of the their near future to get him, the 31-yard-old will need to deliver well beyond 10 games.

Consider the Raiders now don't have first-, second-, third- or fourth-round picks for 2012, although they do have compensatory picks coming from losing key free agents over the summer. So if they fall short of the postseason, or worse, dip below .500, they will be limited in getting help to correct what didn't work. On top of losing the two high picks, they will also need to restructure a contract that's worth $50 million through 2014.


At first blush, the Raiders would seem to have gotten their man in Carson Palmer. But the question now is what the future holds. (AP Photo)
On the surface, looking at what they've had under center since 2007 to make up for the whiff on another quarterback drafted first overall, JaMarcus Russell, Palmer looks like an upgrade over all of them, even injured starter Jason Campbell. So with their aggressiveness in acquiring Palmer, you see the Raiders at least had reasoning behind it.

As a California native and former Heisman Trophy winner at Southern California, Palmer made it clear that he wanted to play for a team on the West Coast. Check. Both at USC and with the Bengals, Palmer had familiarity working in an offense with current Raiders coach Hue Jackson. Check. Palmer, a two-time Pro Bowl selection, has a strong arm and is a traditional drop-back passer who can get the ball deep to the Raiders' speedy young receivers. Check.

So at first glance, it appears Palmer has the pedigree to help the Raiders move the ball better and score more. There are real concerns, however, if he can return to being a consistent winning passer and leader in the NFL.


With Carson Palmer trade, Cincinnati Bengals' owner Mike Brown swindles Oakland Raiders
Washington Post: Tuesday Oct 18
First, in the short term, there's the rust factor. Sure, Palmer has worked out hard in the offseason preparing for such an opportunity, including passing work with former NFL quarterback Ken O'Brien. That's a far cry from being familiar with the Raiders' scheme and personnel under Jackson. Right there, he's already behind—to the point it's no given he can even start ahead of Kyle Boller in Oakland's key Week 7 game against the Kansas City Chiefs.

Then there's the trust factor. In his seven years with the Bengals, Palmer helped them get to the playoffs twice, both times as AFC North division winners in 2005 and 2009. Although it's admirable how Palmer has rebounded from serious knee and elbow injuries during his career, something was off in his game when healthy the past two seasons.

With Palmer, there will be a temptation for the Raiders to open up the offense with an attacking downfield passing game, something Davis loved. But when the Bengals won the division two years ago, they did it on the strength of their running game and defense, with Palmer in more of a caretaker role.


Then last season, Palmer was wildly inconsistent and inefficient. Cincinnati started and ended the season 2-1, but in the middle, it was mired in a 10-game losing streak. Palmer especially struggled on the road (1-7) and against the pressure defenses of the AFC's best teams.

It would have been different if the Raiders had taken a calculated gamble on trading for Palmer at a more reasonable exchange rate. But for what they gave up and are about to pay Palmer, the way he played last season would be unacceptable. Then again, if he returns to being a caretaker, the question is, would he be that much better than Boller or Campbell in that role to be worthy of his cost?

This season, after their Week 8 bye, the Raiders have challenging second-half matchups with the AFC West-leading San Diego Chargers (twice), Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers and Detroit Lions. San Diego is a strong and talented division leader, so Oakland's most realistic bet to get into the playoffs will be as a wild card. If the season ended today, Buffalo would occupy one of the AFC wild-card spots. The Bills beat the Raiders in a Week 3 thriller. The other would belong to, of all teams, 4-2 Cincinnati.

The Bengals and owner Mike Brown should pinch themselves for their good fortunes this season. With rookie quarterback Andy Dalton playing so well, they had the last laugh in the Palmer staredown, which now puts them in a better position stockpile more top young talent—such as Dalton and wide receiver A.J. Green—over the next couple of years.

One has to wonder, in the wake of Davis' passing, if the Raiders had already found a savvy general manager to pair with Jackson, if they would have made such a short-sighted move. With Palmer's age and history of injuries, plus his recent declining production, the move has the potential to match the aftermath of the Raiders drafting Russell—another quarterback setback from which it will be hard to recover.

[Brandon494]

I don't see this trade holding the Raiders back for years. First off the first round pick will likely be in the early 20s and when the Raiders do draft they usually suck.

[Fritz]

What a bad move on the Raiders' part. A first and a second? For a 31 year old QB?

Name two trades in which a team gave up a first or more for an older QB and it worked out for them, not just for the first or second year, but in the third and fourth.

Hell, name a couple where it worked out at all.

[Iron Mike]

Is Al still calling the shots?

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/lol-too-soon.jpg

[Brandon494]

Did they overpay? Of course but I still like the move based on the fact that they now have their QB for the next 5+ years and they would have selected another bust with their draft picks anyway.

[pbmax]

I don't see this trade holding the Raiders back for years. First off the first round pick will likely be in the early 20s and when the Raiders do draft they usually suck.

They do make the same mistake over and over, especially when they are high in the draft, but there is a reason the Raiders are performing well (stretching back to last year) and it applies to the 49ers and Lions. Being bad for so long has stockpiled their roster with a lot of top picks, and while mismanagement can cause them to lose some players and bad coaching or organizational ineptitude can hinder their development, that talent is largely still on the roster. Most overnight sensations in the NFL come from years of being bad and having more talent on hand than is generally recognized.

The other thing about the trade is that it will be costly. Those picks (even if they are higher than we imagine they will be) are cheap and likely to be quite talented. It will be an expensive prospect to replace the talent and nearly as expensive just to find a reliable veteran fill-in.

Its the very definition of why a coach has a tough time as a GM, since the jobs at times like these have two different goals.

[hoosier]

What a bad move on the Raiders' part. A first and a second? For a 31 year old QB?

Name two trades in which a team gave up a first or more for an older QB and it worked out for them, not just for the first or second year, but in the third and fourth.

Hell, name a couple where it worked out at all.

John Hadl? :-)

[KYPack]

What a bad move on the Raiders' part. A first and a second? For a 31 year old QB?

Name two trades in which a team gave up a first or more for an older QB and it worked out for them, not just for the first or second year, but in the third and fourth.

Hell, name a couple where it worked out at all.

Favre?
Cutler?

[vince]

Neither one of those guys were anywhere near 30 at the time of the trade.

WWTTD?

[Freak Out]

Wow....without that #1 they could miss out on the next Justin Harrell or Jamarcus Russel. :)

[KYPack]

Neither one of those guys were anywhere near 30 at the time of the trade.

WWTTD?

Oh yeah.

I missed "over 30" in the criteria.

Joe Montana?

Did he help the "Chefs" or just tease 'em?

[Fritz]

I don't think that move paid off for KC in the short or long term. Montana's two years were 11 - 5 and 9 - 7. First year was the conference championship loss to the Bills, second was a first round loss. Marcus Allen was the featured back. A 2 - 2 playoff record.

In the two years that followed, Steve "Sonny" Bono took the team to 13 - 3 and then 9 - 7 finishes. Hell, in the three years prior to Montana, the Chiefs were 11 - 5, 10 - 6, and 10 - 6, with Steve DeBerg and Dave Krieg as QB's.

I don't think Montana lifted that team much higher than any of those other QB's.

[Guiness]

John Hadl? :-)

lol, I mentioned him elsewhere in the thread! He immediately came to mind.

[Fritz]

That's maybe the worst Packer trade in the history of the organization. It was the trade that launched what seemed a thousand losing seasons.

[LP]

A first and second, possibly two firsts for Carson Palmer and all we got was what, a second for Bert? FIRE TED THOMPSON!!!

[mraynrand]

Wow....without that #1 they could miss out on the next Justin Harrell or Jamarcus Russel. :)

Touché!

[Guiness]

Wow....without that #1 they could miss out on the next Justin Harrell or Jamarcus Russel. :)

They could also miss out on the next Clay Mathews. And without their 4th, they could miss out on a TJ Lang, i.e. an OL starter. Cheap.

That's the thing about the draft - it's like a lottery ticket. They chose to trade their lottery ticket for a known, good (almost certainly not great) entity.

[Scott Campbell]

12-15 teams start every season NOT knowing who their starting QB is gonna be. This is an opportunity to not be one of those teams for a while. The price of poker is high at that table(just ask the bears) but I think I would have done it too.



But is Palmer any good?

[Upnorth]

But is Palmer any good?

Is Palmer as good or better than Campbell is the real question. Palmer maybe a fit this year, what happens next year if he is any good? You have a decent young QB who knows your system and has decent ball control that is growing into something better each year. Now you bring in a egotastic QB who was great for 2 years and a tease every other year. What does that do to you team without even factoring in the lost picks? Unless Palmer is as good as his peak this was a dumb dumb move.