Excessive football playing: 15 Yards!

[bobblehead]

Whats up with the Penalty on Mathews for...you know, doing his job. Just like Bishop against Cam a few weeks ago, we had a LB hit a QB; not high near the head. Not low by the knees. But dead center. It wasn't late. He didn't spit on him after the hit. Yet drew a 15 yarder for hitting him too hard.

I've had it. I say we put a flag on the QB and finish what the NFL started.

[Joemailman]

The fact that Clay hit him while moving fast was an obvious intent to injure.

[Smeefers]

The fact that Clay hit him while moving fast was an obvious intent to injure.

Now now now. Be carefull with this thread, or you're going to be accused of being a trans gender woman hater.

[Pugger]

Mike and Mike on ESPN are bemoaning that "penalty" too. I understand the league wants to protect the QBs but that was ridiculous. CM3 gets mugged all afternoon with nary a flag and then when he finally gets in there HE gets flagged. I wonder if Goodell will send MM an apology. :roll: Thankfully that bogus call didn't cost us the damn game!

[mraynrand]

Brett Favre always gets those calls

[pbmax]

Hit QB in pocket on any part of his body with your head = Penalty. Its not complicated. Immediately after this, Walden hit Ponder the exact same way. With the ref in the frame watching the entire tackle, there was no flag because Walden put his shoulder into Ponder and slid his helmet to the side. Textbook.

The harder part of the rule is that when the QB decides to run (good luck figuring that out), then those rules are the same for a RB.

[Upnorth]

Hit QB in pocket on any part of his body with your head = Penalty. Its not complicated. Immediately after this, Walden hit Ponder the exact same way. With the ref in the frame watching the entire tackle, there was no flag because Walden put his shoulder into Ponder and slid his helmet to the side. Textbook.

The harder part of the rule is that when the QB decides to run (good luck figuring that out), then those rules are the same for a RB.

You and your damn knowledge taking the steam out of good clean anger!
Also Joe you are a trans gender woman hater.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hit QB in pocket on any part of his body with your head = Penalty .

I thought it was considered a late hit, didn't occur to me that it was leading with the helmet.

Honestly, I don't know what "leading with the helmet" means. I think it means you can't use helmet as a weapon, meaning a vicious hit. Its impossible to always make contact with shoulder pad. only.

I could be wrong, but think it is still OK to tackle a QB in the midsection, as long as it is not a vicious helmet hit. Same deal as with tackling other players. I think Mathews got flagged (incorrectly) for coming in late.

[sharpe1027]

Hit QB in pocket on any part of his body with your head = Penalty. Its not complicated. Immediately after this, Walden hit Ponder the exact same way. With the ref in the frame watching the entire tackle, there was no flag because Walden put his shoulder into Ponder and slid his helmet to the side. Textbook.

The harder part of the rule is that when the QB decides to run (good luck figuring that out), then those rules are the same for a RB.

Was Ponder even still in the pocket? I thought Ponder rolled out on that play. I have no footage of the play, so I could be totally off on my memory.

[ThunderDan]

Was Ponder even still in the pocket? I thought Ponder rolled out on that play. I have no footage of the play, so I could be totally off on my memory.

Ponder had all sorts of time on that play and eventually rolled right and was out of the pocket.

PB, I thought you couldn't hit the QB with the crown of the helmet.

[swede]

Well now we'll have to get the vid posted, because late hit was the call I remember and I never saw Clay's helmet anywhere but to the side. In my mind, having seen it twice, it was shoulder pad to thorax with one step between release and the awesome collision.

PB is right a lot of the time, though.

[Patler]

Defensive players are supposed to attempt to hold up and not hit or at least lessen the hit on the QB if they aren't going to get there before the ball is released. When the rules were changed, many complained because it requires the defender to guess if he will get there in time instead of going aggressively to the QB. Any hesitation may cause him not to get there in time.

Both Matthews and Bishop wrapped up and finished the tackle. Clearly, neither tried to hold up, or lessen the hit, and neither got there in time, because the ball was released. Waldon on the other hand did not wrap up, did hit Ponder with a good shot, but did not follow through like Bishop and Matthews.

[gbgary]

yup...clay got him with his shoulder. textbook tackle. bogus call. Packers should get an apology later this week...if the nfl has any balls.

[sharpe1027]

Defensive players are supposed to attempt to hold up and not hit or at least lessen the hit on the QB if they aren't going to get there before the ball is released. When the rules were changed, many complained because it requires the defender to guess if he will get there in time instead of going aggressively to the QB. Any hesitation may cause him not to get there in time.

Both Matthews and Bishop wrapped up and finished the tackle. Clearly, neither tried to hold up, or lessen the hit, and neither got there in time, because the ball was released. Waldon on the other hand did not wrap up, did hit Ponder with a good shot, but did not follow through like Bishop and Matthews.

I do not have a replay to look at, but I think that Matthews had virtually no way of knowing whether Ponder still had the ball because he hit him so close to the release. At a certain point in a "text book" tackle a defender is not looking at the ball and is instead putting his head to the side to avoid spearing the guy. Matthews was pretty much bang-bang and while it is likely that the ball was going to be thrown, Ponder could just have easily not thrown the ball (i.e., if he saw Matthews start to pull up, then he would have had time and reason to pump the ball).

If that is a valid call then they are going to have to make a new rule that QBs cannot pump fake and then run with the ball.

[LEWCWA]

Brett Favre always gets those calls

I don't know about that. it seemed like they let BF take a beating compare to some other QB's. Anyhow I know it was just a joke.

[pbmax]

You and your damn knowledge taking the steam out of good clean anger!
Also Joe you are a trans gender woman hater.

I understand the anger. I felt the same way watching Altanta-Philly and trying to figure out why the flag kept flying even when the player tried to stop in midair rather than hit the QB square in the back.

[pbmax]

Ponder had all sorts of time on that play and eventually rolled right and was out of the pocket.

PB, I thought you couldn't hit the QB with the crown of the helmet.

That's possible, I am not sure if you can hit him with the facemask. I do know that Walden's hit is the more common approach.

[Patler]

I do not have a replay to look at, but I think that Matthews had virtually no way of knowing whether Ponder still had the ball because he hit him so close to the release. At a certain point in a "text book" tackle a defender is not looking at the ball and is instead putting his head to the side to avoid spearing the guy. Matthews was pretty much bang-bang and while it is likely that the ball was going to be thrown, Ponder could just have easily not thrown the ball (i.e., if he saw Matthews start to pull up, then he would have had time and reason to pump the ball).

If that is a valid call then they are going to have to make a new rule that QBs cannot pump fake and then run with the ball.

Exactly what defensive players have and do complain about. They are presumed to know what will occur before it occurs.

The NFL wants to protect QBs. If it frustrates a few defenders, they don't care. If a QB pumps, gets a DL to hold up because of it, then runs or completes a long pass....so much the better. It is an exciting play that the NFL wants to encourage by its rules. They aren't looking for fairness.

[pbmax]

Defensive players are supposed to attempt to hold up and not hit or at least lessen the hit on the QB if they aren't going to get there before the ball is released. When the rules were changed, many complained because it requires the defender to guess if he will get there in time instead of going aggressively to the QB. Any hesitation may cause him not to get there in time.

Both Matthews and Bishop wrapped up and finished the tackle. Clearly, neither tried to hold up, or lessen the hit, and neither got there in time, because the ball was released. Waldon on the other hand did not wrap up, did hit Ponder with a good shot, but did not follow through like Bishop and Matthews.

I can't find the hits on video anywhere to parse them.

[bobblehead]

Hit QB in pocket on any part of his body with your head = Penalty. Its not complicated. Immediately after this, Walden hit Ponder the exact same way. With the ref in the frame watching the entire tackle, there was no flag because Walden put his shoulder into Ponder and slid his helmet to the side. Textbook.

The harder part of the rule is that when the QB decides to run (good luck figuring that out), then those rules are the same for a RB.

What about when you line the hit up with your shoulder and the QB moves? You can't convince me that clay intended to hit him in a way to put his own (clay's) neck in jeapordy. He dipped down to avoid hitting him high as Ponder MOVED into the spear lane. If that was why they flagged him, its even worse.

[pbmax]

What about when you line the hit up with your shoulder and the QB moves? You can't convince me that clay intended to hit him in a way to put his own (clay's) neck in jeapordy. He dipped down to avoid hitting him high as Ponder MOVED into the spear lane. If that was why they flagged him, its even worse.

Don't think it matters.

[CaliforniaCheez]

No rationalizations should be made. It was a very bad call.

The official may have been surprised to see it done so textbook. Shoulder to midsection, wrap the knees, not land on the QB or drive him into the artificial carpet.

[red]

next year they're making a new rule where a defensive player can't get within three yards of a qb and has to keep both hands behind his back while rushing the passer

he is allowed to yell and scream though, provided he doesn't use profanities

[bobblehead]

Don't think it matters.

Yep. Just like the 3 times I saw GB recievers take head shots that should have been flags didn't matter. I'm not saying we get the short end of it either. I see our DB's deliver shots that "technically" are illegal, but don't get flagged. Again, I am sick of rehashing officiating, but that hit wasn't nasty or overly aggressive. I see far worse get flagged. What if every QB starts matadoring the defender into spearing him...is that a flag too?

[swede]

Defensive players are supposed to attempt to hold up and not hit or at least lessen the hit on the QB if they aren't going to get there before the ball is released. When the rules were changed, many complained because it requires the defender to guess if he will get there in time instead of going aggressively to the QB. Any hesitation may cause him not to get there in time.

Both Matthews and Bishop wrapped up and finished the tackle. Clearly, neither tried to hold up, or lessen the hit, and neither got there in time, because the ball was released. Waldon on the other hand did not wrap up, did hit Ponder with a good shot, but did not follow through like Bishop and Matthews.

Are the referees really asked to be this qualitative, making judgments about whether or not a player is trying to hold up a little bit while still being alert to the possibility of a pump fake?

Last night the commentators said the rule involved two steps after the release of the ball, something that seems much more qualitative and reasonable. Matthews clearly did not take two steps following the release of the ball. He did hit the bejeebers out of Ponder after the ball was gone. Could he have held up? I think he could have. Was he within two steps? Yes. If the rule is fuzzy then the flag was appropriate. If the rule is clean and clear with two steps given to the defender by rule then it was a bad call. It all depends upon what the rules are and how the refs are trained. Goodness knows we have a hard time keeping up with the evolution of the rule book.

[Patler]

I can't find the hits on video anywhere to parse them.

I record the games and just looked at yesterday's again.
Bishop's a few weeks ago was when he drove in with his shoulder and swept the QBs legs forward, putting him on his back.
Yesterday, Matthews drive through Ponder wrapping his arms around him, again putting him down.
Walden kept his arms out, hit Ponder hard but didn't follow through onto him. Ponder stumbled backward, but didn't go down.

[Patler]

Are the referees really asked to be this qualitative, making judgments about whether or not a player is trying to hold up a little bit while still being alert to the possibility of a pump fake?


Yes, on all sorts of plays they are.

My complaint on the play comes earlier.
Why wasn't holding called on the same play? As Ponder ran to his right, Matthews tried to spin away from the blocker. The blocker grabbed with his arm or his shoulder pad, and Matthews arms and legs went spinning. Only his great balance kept Matthews from falling. Had he fallen, holding would probably have been called. Had he not been held, he would have gotten to Ponder much sooner.
To me, the holding was more obvious than Matthews' penalty.

[sharpe1027]

Are the referees really asked to be this qualitative, making judgments about whether or not a player is trying to hold up a little bit while still being alert to the possibility of a pump fake?


Yes. But I don't think Matthews "had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to tackle the passer while he still had the ball." No way in hell that Mathews could have stopped his momentum. Not even close.

NFL rulebook (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/protectionofpasser):

"No defensive player may run into a passer of a legal forward pass after the ball has left his hand (15 yards). The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball."

[Bossman641]

Was the call on CM3 for a late hit or for leading with his helmet?

If it was for a late hit, to me it looked like Walden's hit on the next play was later than CM3's was. Also, Walden seemed to hesitate before hitting Ponder. I don't know if he just didn't react fast or if he was worried about getting flagged, but it would be a shame to see defenders stutter like Walden did over a fear of being flagged.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Was the call on CM3 for a late hit or for leading with his helmet? I don't think we know, that is the problem.

I hope the packers protest the call and get a detailed answer from the league. I don't trust any of the posters on this one, especially the smart ones.

[Brandon494]

They were complaining about it on Mike and Mike this morning, no reason at all for that hit to be a penalty. It was not a late hate, he lead with his shoulder, tackled him in the mid section, and then rolled off Ponder instead of driving him into the ground.

[sharpe1027]

Was the call on CM3 for a late hit or for leading with his helmet?


Neither is correct, so it doesn't really matter. ;)

[mission]

yup...clay got him with his shoulder. textbook tackle. bogus call. Packers should get an apology later this week...if the nfl has any balls.

No shit! Perfect tackle, training tape kind of stuff... facemask up, across the chest, hips low, explode through target. If that was leading with the helmet there's no legal way to tackle.

[pbmax]

I am not admitting defeat yet, but I am pretty close to beaten here. I wish I could find the video. I swore at the time, for both live action and the replay, that his initial hit was helmet first, like Bishops.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/28/clay-matthews-not-fined-for-roughing-christian-ponder/

http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/matthewsponder.jpg?w=147

[bobblehead]

I am not admitting defeat yet, but I am pretty close to beaten here. I wish I could find the video. I swore at the time, for both live action and the replay, that his initial hit was helmet first, like Bishops.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/28/clay-matthews-not-fined-for-roughing-christian-ponder/

http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/matthewsponder.jpg?w=147

Hmmm....I actually agreed that he hit helmet to midsection (an obvious accident as it endangered CLAY), but Bishop was DEFINATELY shoulder to midsection.

[pbmax]

Hmmm....I actually agreed that he hit helmet to midsection (an obvious accident as it endangered CLAY), but Bishop was DEFINATELY shoulder to midsection.

I may be mis-remembering now. Like a TD catch, I can no longer identify a legal tackle. Its almost as impenetrable as a balk or a foot fault in tennis.

[Guiness]

lol at the comparison to a balk.

At full speed, I thought he had led with his helmet, and he was getting the penalty for some sort of spearing infraction. The picture tells a different story. I don't think he drove him into the ground, either.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The ticky tack calls on the QB, combined with the total emasculation of the defensive backs, is turning pro football into beach vollyball. No, not quite. But it is just about impossible to hold a good QB to under 300 passing yards. Kinda sucks, I find it less entertaining.

[Upnorth]

Every week there is 2 to 3 bad calls. It was our turn this week. What sucks is it led to 6 pts, turning a dominant performance into a close game.

[CaliforniaCheez]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1027/nfl_g_matthews_bl_400.jpg

"When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down and land on top of him with all or most of the defender's weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up or cradle the passer with the defensive player's arms."

He did not cradle him like a baby.

[Pugger]

The league did NOT fine Clay for this infraction so the league in a round about way is admitting the ref blew it with that call.