Whats with the D?

[AtlPackFan]

I don't have answers...I just have questions. I was hoping y'all would have answers.

Do we miss Cullen Jenkins that much?
Do we miss Nick Collins that much? I seem to think the D sucked before he went down.
Have others in the D regressed?
Have other teams figured out Caper's schemes?

I heard the announcers on WSSP this morning saying they don't care about the D...that the offense can outscore anyone. To me that is stupid. Anyone remember the Giants clamping down on the Patriots a few years back after the Patriots went...what, 18-0? The Patriots were putting up crazy, unbelievable numbers and the Giants shut them down. I still remember the Giants stating they were going to hold the Patriots under a certain amount of points and Brady laughing about because no one had. Well the Giants did it and the same is going to happen to the Pack if they don't find a D.

You have to have at least some semblance of a D. We are getting lucky right now with the turnovers but at some point, someone is going to figure out how to slow down our O just enough and then we are going to be screwed because this D doesn't seem to be able to stop anything. You can't rely on turnovers forever.

[Joemailman]

There's nothing lucky about the turnovers. Packers are 1st in INT's in 2011, were 2nd in 2010 and 1st in 2009. They're giving up too many big plays for a number of reasons. Lack of communication in the secondary, greater reliance on blitzing because lack of a pass rush, and loss of Collins. It also seems like the blitzes are less effective this year.

There is still time to improve, but I wouldn't expect this defense to really resemble what we saw last year.

[3irty1]

Its hard to tell the quality of a D when you are only looking at wins.

The scheme has been pretty vanilla by Capers standards which is to be expected since these games don't mean much. In fact I've wondered if we're purposely bending more than usual as a form of clock control. Running the ball to control the clock is pretty hard, allowing opposing teams to sustain long time-consuming drives is really, really, easy. As long as your offense can do whatever it wants that might be a real strategy.

The individual efforts of the players however can be questioned for sure. Raji hasn't been the factor he was last year, the guy is a workhorse for us but we could really go for another quality D lineman to spell him. He's just getting run down. Walden and Green who were both pleasant surprises last year have been non-factors this season. Hawk and Tramon aren't playing at their pay-grade. Wilson isn't contributing much either.

[pbmax]

Losing Jenkins and Neal has left the pass rush with one less alternative. Its also affected the scheme and the number of plays for Raji and Pickett. Without Jenkins/Neal and the Psycho package, that's another 10 snaps per game the base D line get to line up for.

Collins being hurt is clearly affecting the secondary. Its not everything, as they were porous before, but several times the Packers have misplayed route combinations. At times like this, I wonder if having split CB/safety coaching hurts. Take three plays, first, a 2nd half TD to the bottom of my TV screen, Williams and the safety were talking about coverage right through the snap, the safety came up to fill the middle (TE I think) and the CB let the WR get deep. Second, the corner Oakie with Woodson at safety, Wood ran up to the middle and let the WR get behind him before reacting and giving help to Shields. Both this plays looked like the CB was to play underneath the receiver while receiving help over the top. Third, the goal line TD pass where 3 Packer defenders all played the same short route and the deeper player got open and scored. The safety was again late to help if he had deep responsibility. I am not sure that was the problem because in goal line, deep in the endzone is not all that deep and tough for a safety to get to from the middle of the field.

Few OLB options. Last year, the Packers had a Jones/Zombo option at OLB and while neither was a pass rush terror, Capers let Matthews roam while the other side wasn't terrible. When Zombo got hurt, Walden came in and provided a different look.

This year, Zombo has been hurt and isn't up to speed while Walden has been underwhelming at times. For some reason, they are very reluctant to give Jones snaps now. I think last year's mismash of talent and injuries was more favorable to the Packers interests than this years, in some odd way. Mainly, that Zombo isn't up to speed, Jones has sunk further on the depth chart and Capers is not sending Matthews around the formation as much. And that last part is odd as Matthews claimed just a while back he had the green light to switch sides.

Lastly, all the shuffling has really stifled the blitz. I am not sure there is less of it, but its been less effective. Case in point, late in game Rivers audibled after Packers showed blitz. Hawk and Matthews began to gesticulate wildly. I would guess that they thought either the play had changed or they wanted to bring pressure from the other side if he slid protection. At the snap, Matthews on D left dropped to coverage and four rushed from the defense's right. But something went wrong in coverage and while the pass rush did get close to Rivers, he had time to find Matthews with two receivers around him and completed a pass to the sideline. The Packers have not been getting successful adjustments. The back end of the D looks like 2009 again.

[bobblehead]

My biggest gripe is that once we have a lead MM plays too scared. He goes into those shell coverages and teams march right down the field on us. I would rather he simply stays with having dom call an aggressive game regardless of score, but he is more obsessed with "the way its done" than I am with insisting you have to stop the run being equal to playing good pass D.

[pbmax]

My biggest gripe is that once we have a lead MM plays too scared. He goes into those shell coverages and teams march right down the field on us. I would rather he simply stays with having dom call an aggressive game regardless of score, but he is more obsessed with "the way its done" than I am with insisting you have to stop the run being equal to playing good pass D.

They had players back because Capers was blitzing like a maniac at the end. He sent no less than 5 most downs on the last three drives.

McCarthy actually threw the ball quite a bit in the phone booth offense twice before going three runs in the last drive. And at that point, running made some sense considering the last 3 pass drive was a 3 and out. That 3 and out contained an actual Rodgers misfire, a rare occurrence lately. Starks was one arm away from a first down on his 8 yard run. He was beastly.

[AtlPackFan]

There's nothing lucky about the turnovers. Packers are 1st in INT's in 2011, were 2nd in 2010 and 1st in 2009. They're giving up too many big plays for a number of reasons. Lack of communication in the secondary, greater reliance on blitzing because lack of a pass rush, and loss of Collins. It also seems like the blitzes are less effective this year.

There is still time to improve, but I wouldn't expect this defense to really resemble what we saw last year.

Apologies. Lucky was the wrong word but it seems like some games you get a bunch and other games...not so much. My fear is that if the D doesn't step up, we are going to run up against a very good team that takes care of the ball and slows down the offense just enough to hang a L on the Pack...and that it will happen in the playoffs.

But then I am a pessimist by nature... :-)

[hoosier]

My biggest gripe is that once we have a lead MM plays too scared. He goes into those shell coverages and teams march right down the field on us. I would rather he simply stays with having dom call an aggressive game regardless of score, but he is more obsessed with "the way its done" than I am with insisting you have to stop the run being equal to playing good pass D.

The shell coverages is Capers, not MM. If MM is guilty of going too conservative with the lead it's because he tends to take his foot off the gas a little on offensive playcalling. As far as Capers's schemes, it is hard to argue with his tendency to rush three and drop everyone else back, given that (a) the secondary has shown a tendency to give up big plays this year and (b) even when they bring pressure they're really not getting to the QB the way they did last year.

[pbmax]

There is less luck involved in INTs, but it still requires the assistance of the offense. At some point, good QBs are going to stop giving it to them.

[AtlPackFan]

Its hard to tell the quality of a D when you are only looking at wins.

The scheme has been pretty vanilla by Capers standards which is to be expected since these games don't mean much. In fact I've wondered if we're purposely bending more than usual as a form of clock control. Running the ball to control the clock is pretty hard, allowing opposing teams to sustain long time-consuming drives is really, really, easy. As long as your offense can do whatever it wants that might be a real strategy.

The individual efforts of the players however can be questioned for sure. Raji hasn't been the factor he was last year, the guy is a workhorse for us but we could really go for another quality D lineman to spell him. He's just getting run down. Walden and Green who were both pleasant surprises last year have been non-factors this season. Hawk and Tramon aren't playing at their pay-grade. Wilson isn't contributing much either.

Interesting theory.

I heard someone say that Jenkins leaving and Neal being out has resulted in Raji playing more end than nose and that he isn't as dynamic at end as he is at nose. Anyway...just what I heard.

I have always been a Hawk fan but I wonder if the Packers would have been better off letting him go? He doesn't seem to be more than just a body...at least from what I have heard. Didn't see the game yesterday...they didn't show it in ATL and I don't have Sunday Ticket.

[PA Pack Fan]

I have always been a Hawk fan but I wonder if the Packers would have been better off letting him go? He doesn't seem to be more than just a body...at least from what I have heard. Didn't see the game yesterday...they didn't show it in ATL and I don't have Sunday Ticket.

Hawk is playing way above average. He is more reliable than last year, and his covearge skills improved. Letting him go would've been a terrible move.

[Bossman641]

The D is honestly pathetic right now, and I don't think it can be traced to any one level of the defense. The D line and OLB aren't getting consistent pressure, Hawk and Bishop are getting exposed in pass coverage, and the secondary breakdowns are unacceptable.

I keep waiting and waiting for them to turn it around, but it just isn't happening. At this point I hope they can just reach the level of an average defense. It's really hard to believe this is all due to the loss of Jenkins and I think it's asking an awful lot of Neal to expect him to come in and single-handedly improve the pass rush.

[denverYooper]

Someone tweeted this to Neal:

http://twitter.com/#!/JokerNick1983/status/133583188520996864


@mneal96 So, are you Justin Harrel v2.0? I mean, talk about injury prone

Interesting thing is that he re-tweeted it.

[denverYooper]

I cannot put my finger on what's up with the D. They'll put teams in 3rd and long and then give it up. They'll look horrible until they need a stop and then they'll come through (like the last 2 drives yesterday). I don't know that things are all that different than the end of last year, where they closed multiple games out with a last minute TO, doing just enough. They're giving up more as the offense is rolling harder than Optimus Prime on C1al!s.

The only way that I can find to describe their play is "clutch", although the way that they get to the clutch looks pretty fugly. In ways, they're like the Eli Manning (or Big Ben) of defenses: they look like shit until it's crunch time, then they pull it out.

[sheepshead]

Are we missing the talent from these guys? Or maybe leadership. Collins, Jenkins and Ill throw another name out there JUST from a leadership stand point- Barnett.

[gbgary]

it's ok. ok is good enough with our o. maybe as the season goes on it'll get better as it did last year.

[Pugger]

I think we are missing Collins' leadership big time. Didn't he make all of the secondary calls? The kid taking his place is basically a rookie playing one handed (Burnett). We saw several instances yesterday when the guys looked confused out there. I hope Burnett will get better at this as the season progresses.

I also believe our pass rush is suffering because we relied on Neal taking Jenkins' place and MN hasn't been able to get on the field. :-(

[pbmax]

Are we missing the talent from these guys? Or maybe leadership. Collins, Jenkins and Ill throw another name out there JUST from a leadership stand point- Barnett.

Except this D got better after he got hurt.

[pbmax]

I was thinking the Packers D might be suffering from the offense scoring quickly, from so far away and from scoring their own TDs, but the points per play don't help that argument. Last year it was .24 and this year its .34 points/play. In some way, I imagine a pick 6 helps you win, but puts the D on the field for more plays and thus makes the effort look far less dominating. But it doesn't seem to be the case over the course of the year.

Yards per play shows similar decline, last year 5.1, this year 6.2. Good news? 2011 offense yards per play is 6.7 and points per play is 5.5.

[red]

i was gonna start this same thread. other than 3 int's, we looked absolutely pathetic on d yesterday

peprah is not on the same page as the cb's

tramon is almost worthless this year. if its because of the injury then he needs to sit and heal. him giving a 15 yard cushion on every play is sickening

i'm almost positive the clay was using HGH prior to this year and got off it because there was suppose to be testing. he's playing no where close to what he was the last two years. even when he's not double teamed he's not getting it done.

the other OLB is worthless

raji needs to move back to NT, he's not effective at all at DE. does he have a single sack or tackle for loss this year?

shields is invisible

woodson is really up and down this year. some huge plays, some horrible plays. lots of penalties. is he only a coverage CB now? where's the weak side cb blitz, why isn't he in the backfield breaking up plays?

christ, we damn near lost a 21 point lead in the 4th quarter. shit needs to be fixed, fast

[Pugger]

I contend Clay is getting hosed by the officials. He gets mauled and held on almost every stinkin' play and the refs only drop their yellow hankie when the offending act is obvious that the guy in the last row in the stadium sees it. I recall one replay where the Charger LT hit Clay in the face 3 times in one play!

There is no way in hell NOBODY on either side didn't hold anybody - except for the DBs for some reason. I can't recall a single game when not one O lineman - unless I missed it - was called for holding.

[red]

I contend Clay is getting hosed by the officials. He gets mauled and held on almost every stinkin' play and the refs only drop their yellow hankie when the offending act is obvious that the guy in the last row in the stadium sees it. I recall one replay where the Charger LT hit Clay in the face 3 times in one play!

There is no way in hell NOBODY on either side didn't hold anybody - except for the DBs for some reason. I can't recall a single game when not one O lineman - unless I missed it - was called for holding.

yup i remember that replay too, and it's not like they were borderline hands to the face. those were as blatant and violent as it gets

[denverYooper]

i was gonna start this same thread. other than 3 int's, we looked absolutely pathetic on d yesterday

peprah is not on the same page as the cb's

tramon is almost worthless this year. if its because of the injury then he needs to sit and heal. him giving a 15 yard cushion on every play is sickening

i'm almost positive the clay was using HGH prior to this year and got off it because there was suppose to be testing. he's playing no where close to what he was the last two years. even when he's not double teamed he's not getting it done.

the other OLB is worthless

raji needs to move back to NT, he's not effective at all at DE. does he have a single sack or tackle for loss this year?

shields is invisible

woodson is really up and down this year. some huge plays, some horrible plays. lots of penalties. is he only a coverage CB now? where's the weak side cb blitz, why isn't he in the backfield breaking up plays?

christ, we damn near lost a 21 point lead in the 4th quarter. shit needs to be fixed, fast

Clay seems to be used in coverage a lot more often this year. It could be because Walden seems pretty awful in coverage and they don't have a choice, but I would guess that it tires Clay out a little more and takes away from his pass rush.

One thing I wonder about with Raji: how much are they asking him to rush and how often are they asking him to just hold up blockers? I actually think he's been playing a fair amount of NT.

Woodson has a reputation for being handsy, "old school" it's probably now called, and tends to get into a game or 2 where he gets flagged for doing what he does.

Shields was mostly invisible, wasn't he? I don't remember seeing him much but maybe that's good...

[Bossman641]

Here is another thing I wanted to mention. Capers obviously knows worlds more than me when it comes to running a defense, but some of his blitz calls I just don't get. He'll send corner blitzes from the far sideline that have almost no chance to get to the QB, especially on a wet field.

The whole defense is just sickening. I get furious watching them.

[denverYooper]

Here is another thing I wanted to mention. Capers obviously knows worlds more than me when it comes to running a defense, but some of his blitz calls I just don't get. He'll send corner blitzes from the far sideline that have almost no chance to get to the QB, especially on a wet field.

The whole defense is just sickening. I get furious watching them.

The long blitzes are confusing to me as well.

[sheepshead]

Except this D got better after he got hurt.

No, I was talking Nick Barnett. Nick Barnetts leadership.

[mmmdk]

No, I was talking Nick Barnett. Nick Barnetts leadership.

I don't think Nick Barnett will ever be "in the picture" when it comes to leadership!

[hoosier]

JSO had an article a few weeks ago in which the writer described Capers's scheme using two different pass rush modes for defensive linemen in the nickle. One mode is called "jet rush," which lets linemen get as much penetration as they can. The other wasn't given a name, but the two DL's responsibilities were a little different: they were not expected to collapse the pocket but to tie up blockers and supposedly create opportunities for blitzers. Obviously those opportunities are not materializing on a regular basis, but the implication was that Raji's decline in productivity can be attributed to Capers not using the jet mode as much this year as last.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/puttin-on-the-blitz-132669698.html

[gbgary]

I don't think Nick Barnett will ever be "in the picture" when it comes to leadership!

hehe

[pbmax]

No, I was talking Nick Barnett. Nick Barnetts leadership.

Just to be clear, I was talking about last year's defense as in, "Except this (Packer) D got better (in 2010) after he (Barnett) got hurt."

And I understood you meant leadership. But if we are to believe JSO, Hawk is a more calming influence in the huddle which allows the fellows to settle down before the next play and receive his signals clearly. This is why everyone maintained Hawk was worth his new contract.

But my main objection to tagging this to Barnett's departure is that Bishop is his replacement and he has played better than Barnett.

[sheepshead]

Just to be clear, I was talking about last year's defense as in, "Except this (Packer) D got better (in 2010) after he (Barnett) got hurt."

And I understood you meant leadership. But if we are to believe JSO, Hawk is a more calming influence in the huddle which allows the fellows to settle down before the next play and receive his signals clearly. This is why everyone maintained Hawk was worth his new contract.

But my main objection to tagging this to Barnett's departure is that Bishop is his replacement and he has played better than Barnett.

I know, and I was strictly talking intangibles. I have nothing to base it on, just a hunch.

[Harlan Huckleby]

we don't need no stinkin D

[Harlan Huckleby]

Barnett was and is a very good player. I seriously doubt D improved because he went down last year. This is all crap because of his off the field nonsense.

[Guiness]

Barnett was and is a very good player. I seriously doubt D improved because he went down last year. This is all crap because of his off the field nonsense.


While it's hard to judge, and probably a push, if the ILB corps got better when Barnett went down, it certainly did seem that when he was no longer the defensive play caller (and Hawk was) the front 7 improved.

[pbmax]

Barnett was and is a very good player. I seriously doubt D improved because he went down last year. This is all crap because of his off the field nonsense.

Its possible Burnett and/or Peprah are still in over their head in terms of recognition and adjustments on the fly.

[Harlan Huckleby]

the D misses Collins big time. duh.

[Harlan Huckleby]

While it's hard to judge, and probably a push, if the ILB corps got better when Barnett went down, it certainly did seem that when he was no longer the defensive play caller (and Hawk was) the front 7 improved.

Barnett went down very early in the season. Defense got better late in year. I don't believe hawk calling plays made difference.

[pbmax]

I think we miss the understated leadership shown by Daryn Colledge. By allowing defenders to routinely beat him in practice, he raised everyone's confidence level. On the defensive side of the ball.

[Joemailman]

Per MM's PC:

Frank Zombo will likely miss the Minnesota game. Mike Neal expected to practice on Thursday

Main focus on defense will be communication.

[pbmax]

Per MM's PC:

Frank Zombo will likely miss the Minnesota game. Mike Neal expected to practice on Thursday

Main focus on defense will be communication.

You know, of all the problems to have, that's not a such a bad one. I just wish it hadn't been semi-consistent since 2009.

[pbmax]

Color me skeptical, but hasn't Neal done the one practice a week thing before only to be shut down again? Or was that Zombo?

[denverYooper]

Color me skeptical, but hasn't Neal done the one practice a week thing before only to be shut down again? Or was that Zombo?

I thought it happened with Neal once, earlier in the season.

[Fritz]

It is, of course, not just one factor, as several have noted. One of the coaches in a recent JSO or GBPG article - I can't put my finger on it just now - mentioned that Jenkins was nice because he played the run or pass equally well, so the coaches didn't have to mix-and-match to down-and-distance as much as they do now at the end position.

Another factor seems to be Neal's injury. He did show much promise in the few games he played before his first injury, and losing him has affected what Capers can and can't call.

Williams is still hurt, it appears, and Shields seems to have gone a bit backward since last year.

Losing Collins. He was, it would seem, more important than we knew in terms of getting the coverages right in the back end. Plus, Collins/Burnett is way better than Collins/Peprah. One of the reasons the Collins/Burnett package didn't work great at the beginning of the year is that the coaches said they were still trying to figure out how to best utilize both players' skills together.

Raji playing more snaps has to hurt his production.

One more factor - I believe I read a thread here a couple years ago in which evidence was given that a Capers defense showed great improvement in its first year of implementation, then stayed the same the second year, then backslid thereafter. Is Capers becoming too predictable with this group? I dunno. I'd guess not, but I'm just throwing it out there.

I'd love to know what the hell happened to Brad Jones that he's so low on the depth chart I'm more likely to be called in for a few snaps than he is these days.

I wonder if it's time to unveil the Vic So'oto show.

[hoosier]

Raji isn't really playing more snaps this year by any appreciable measure. He played 85% of snaps last year. This year it's what, 90%?

[Brandon494]

I think Capers is taking more chances on defense because he knows that our offense is a lock to put up 28+ every night. Still need to get communication fixed in the secondary and create some sort of pass rush.

[Guiness]

Raji isn't really playing more snaps this year by any appreciable measure. He played 85% of snaps last year. This year it's what, 90%?

If he's playing 90%, that's just short of insane, and I think that would be hurting his effectiveness. Going from 85% (already one of the highest in the league for a DT, I'm sure) to 90 could well end up being the straw that broke the camel's back.

[pittstang5]

I wonder if it's time to unveil the Vic So'oto show.

Would be nice, but kinda hard when he's usually inactive. I think he suited up once and didn't do anything. I can't believe he'd be any worse than Walden, Zombo or Jones, all of which, imo, haven't produced jack squat.

[King Friday]

I don't really see a big issue with the defense. The reason the game was close at the end was our inability to recover an onside kick. We get that, and the defense is getting praised today because we win by 2 scores.

Our offense doesn't control the clock and our defense is on the field A LOT. We have a lot of guys nicked up...who are out there at less than 100%. The Chargers are a talented offense...capable of scoring 30+ on anyone.

Outside of a couple lousy plays where someone screwed the pooch in coverage, our defense was decent considering our pass rush is almost invisible these days.

[Gunakor]

Barnett was and is a very good player. I seriously doubt D improved because he went down last year. This is all crap because of his off the field nonsense.

What changed after Barnett got hurt last year? AJ Hawk started making the defensive playcalls. Nick Collins started making the pre-snap defensive adjustments. Desmond Bishop showed up in a big way in Barnett's stead. The defense got better for a myriad of reasons that would have never occured had Barnett not gone down with injury. So, yes, the D imporved because he got injured. As good as he is or was, he wasn't the best talent and wasn't the best leader and was replaced by better talent and better leadership. Glad he's doing well in Buffalo, never wished him any ill will, but lets be honest about last season. He got hurt, and the defense got better. That's what happened.

[Gunakor]

I don't really see a big issue with the defense. The reason the game was close at the end was our inability to recover an onside kick. We get that, and the defense is getting praised today because we win by 2 scores.

Our offense doesn't control the clock and our defense is on the field A LOT. We have a lot of guys nicked up...who are out there at less than 100%. The Chargers are a talented offense...capable of scoring 30+ on anyone.

Outside of a couple lousy plays where someone screwed the pooch in coverage, our defense was decent considering our pass rush is almost invisible these days.

It's not the final score that worries us about the defense. It was the frequent miscommunication and blown assignments leading to Vincent Jackson running wide the fuck open in the back of the end zone. It was the time Rivers had in the pocket to scan the field and find Vincent Jackson in the first place. I didn't think it was a big issue earlier in the season but it's becoming more and more apparent now that the mental mistakes WILL cost us a win here or there if they aren't fixed. If it happens here, okay, 15-1 is pretty damn good too. If it happens in January...

[mmmdk]

It's not the final score that worries us about the defense. It was the frequent miscommunication and blown assignments leading to Vincent Jackson running wide the fuck open in the back of the end zone. It was the time Rivers had in the pocket to scan the field and find Vincent Jackson in the first place. I didn't think it was a big issue earlier in the season but it's becoming more and more apparent now that the mental mistakes WILL cost us a win here or there if they aren't fixed. If it happens here, okay, 15-1 is pretty damn good too. If it happens in January...

Spot on!

No matter how great our offense is, no way they can carry the miscues by the defense during a title run.

[pbmax]

The prevailing theory about Capers was that his defenses tended to get worse in his second year I think. That didn't quite carry over to 2010. The new JSO theory is that his defenses get better in the second half of a season.

[Pugger]

I think this miscommunication issue can be corrected. I don't know if it is Peprah or Burnett who is calling the DB plays now and not having Collins there might be the main reason for these screw-ups. What has me concerned is our inability going back to last season of containing TEs in coverage. This was a big bugaboo last year.

[mmmdk]

The prevailing theory about Capers was that his defenses tended to get worse in his second year I think. That didn't quite carry over to 2010. The new JSO theory is that his defenses get better in the second half of a season.

They'd better [get better] in the second half of the season or it'll be games like the Arizona PO game 2 years ago in january and no february; that's not Lombardi Trophy football winning ways! The good thing is that the mistakes by the D can be corrected but only with the right coaching and by the right mindset of the players.

Stats are for Baseball ; trophies are for football Champions.

[Upnorth]

I think what we have seen is an opportunistic defence that knows how to make a stop when they ahve to. More turnovers than anyone else, 10th in points against, this d that pukes yards is not horrible. On another thread it was mentioned that for a record 14 games the packers have never trailed starting the 4th quarter (Chi was tied with us going into the 4th once every other game we had the lead). During that time our d has held onto a one score lead NINE times. That is a defence making stops when it has to. Is our d great? No. Is it good enough to win it all? I belive it is.

[Packers4Glory]

Sometimes it looks like guys are guessing looking for the big play instead of staying w/in their assignment..others it just looks like blown coverage. I think the secondary needs to be more assignment sure and pick their spots. I have no doubt that communication and guys not knowing where they should be are the big things killing the defense.

I do agree w/ Woodson tho, and Clay needs to be moved around and used more creatively.

The other aspect that is missing is actually having a LB that is a good coverage guy. It seems if a team has a decent TE we just get torched all game.

BJ Raji needs to step up his game. To me he's been a bit of a disappointment this yr. I really expected him to take another step this yr and be an elite DL.

[Smidgeon]

i was gonna start this same thread. other than 3 int's, we looked absolutely pathetic on d yesterday

peprah is not on the same page as the cb's

tramon is almost worthless this year. if its because of the injury then he needs to sit and heal. him giving a 15 yard cushion on every play is sickening

i'm almost positive the clay was using HGH prior to this year and got off it because there was suppose to be testing. he's playing no where close to what he was the last two years. even when he's not double teamed he's not getting it done.

the other OLB is worthless

raji needs to move back to NT, he's not effective at all at DE. does he have a single sack or tackle for loss this year?

shields is invisible

woodson is really up and down this year. some huge plays, some horrible plays. lots of penalties. is he only a coverage CB now? where's the weak side cb blitz, why isn't he in the backfield breaking up plays?

christ, we damn near lost a 21 point lead in the 4th quarter. shit needs to be fixed, fast

Except before the last game, he was leading the league in QB pressures. He wasn't getting the sacks, but he was getting the knock-downs, hits, and hurries.

[denverYooper]

I think what we have seen is an opportunistic defence that knows how to make a stop when they ahve to. More turnovers than anyone else, 10th in points against, this d that pukes yards is not horrible. On another thread it was mentioned that for a record 14 games the packers have never trailed starting the 4th quarter (Chi was tied with us going into the 4th once every other game we had the lead). During that time our d has held onto a one score lead NINE times. That is a defence making stops when it has to. Is our d great? No. Is it good enough to win it all? I belive it is.

Nine times...

http://www.upperplayground.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/3b0809b332rooney.jpg.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

What changed after Barnett got hurt last year? AJ Hawk started making the defensive playcalls. Nick Collins started making the pre-snap defensive adjustments. Desmond Bishop showed up in a big way in Barnett's stead. The defense got better for a myriad of reasons that would have never occured had Barnett not gone down with injury.

Barnett is a far better player than Hawk. You are grasping at straws,

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't really see a big issue with the defense. The reason the game was close at the end was our inability to recover an onside kick.
you don't get 7 points for recovering an onsides kick.

you are in outer space. S.D. marched up and down the field against that pathetic defense. The packers got two picks for scores, that was the difference.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Its possible Burnett and/or Peprah are still in over their head in terms of recognition and adjustments on the fly.

Agree. Collins being out was a huge blow. It's obvious that the secondary is confused in their assignments far too often.

[Fritz]

To me, the biggest worry is the lack of pass rush. If the team had a pass rush, the coverage on the back end would automatically be better.

[pbmax]

To me, the biggest worry is the lack of pass rush. If the team had a pass rush, the coverage on the back end would automatically be better.

That is the other part of this I worry about. There were fewer concerns about communication issues when the opposing QB was flat on his back. Its hard to separate the two, but clearly the lack of one has exposed the existence of the other. Though, I do believe its worse without Collins making the calls. However, unlike the pass rush, I am pretty sure that Peprah and Burnett can get the calls down before the end of the season.

[pbmax]

Here is Dom talkin' about communicatin'.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/133403908.html

[Bossman641]

That is the other part of this I worry about. There were fewer concerns about communication issues when the opposing QB was flat on his back. Its hard to separate the two, but clearly the lack of one has exposed the existence of the other. Though, I do believe its worse without Collins making the calls. However, unlike the pass rush, I am pretty sure that Peprah and Burnett can get the calls down before the end of the season.

Why is the pass rush so much worse though? It can't all be missing Jenkins.

He missed the last 4 games last year. In those games the Packers had 2 (@Det), 3 (@NE), 1 (NYG), and 6 (CHI) sacks. Wasn't he also pretty limited in the Eagles game (3 sacks)?

To me, it looks like the blitz just isn't synched up at all. There are rarely LB's or DB's having clean holes to run through. They just sort of run into a mass of bodies.

[MadScientist]

MM called the defense unclean. Maybe he's been afraid to touch them because they are unclean?

[prime311]

I'll get into some specifics, as far as I see it. Some of the same things mentioned.


1. Nick Collins injury is putting Woodson into coverage too much and this makes our blitzes more obvious and easier to pick up.
2. No Neal or Jenkins means our interior pass rush has been weak and this dominos back to the LBs.
3. More teams are playing max protect versus our defense.
4. This was especially telling Sunday, but trouble getting off the field combined with an offense scoring quickly is wearing our defense out by halftime and it shows in the 4th. This has been most glaring on the defensive line with Pickett and Raji both gassed from playing pretty much the entire game.
5. Weather and Conditions. We've been playing in perfect weather all year. Not much wind, no rain aside from the end there yesterday, domes. Our offense will get worse and defense better once we start playing in cold, snow, and wind.
6. We're the champs. Every team is going to bring it every week and i think it shows.

I think our biggest problem on defense is my #2 comment, the defensive end position and the domino affect it has on our entire defense.

[prime311]

If he's playing 90%, that's just short of insane, and I think that would be hurting his effectiveness. Going from 85% (already one of the highest in the league for a DT, I'm sure) to 90 could well end up being the straw that broke the camel's back.


I haven't seen the numbers, but I would venture a guess that the Packers D is playing a lot more snaps in general since they can't get off the field. 85% of this years snaps is probably a lot more then last years.

[mmmdk]

5. Weather and Conditions. Then came global warming and it became the Flora & Fauna Tundra.

[mmmdk]

Our offense should score in slowmotion; that'll keep the D of off the field. Or "snowmotion"!

[Upnorth]

I'll get into some specifics, as far as I see it. Some of the same things mentioned.


1. Nick Collins injury is putting Woodson into coverage too much and this makes our blitzes more obvious and easier to pick up.
2. No Neal or Jenkins means our interior pass rush has been weak and this dominos back to the LBs.
3. More teams are playing max protect versus our defense.
4. This was especially telling Sunday, but trouble getting off the field combined with an offense scoring quickly is wearing our defense out by halftime and it shows in the 4th. This has been most glaring on the defensive line with Pickett and Raji both gassed from playing pretty much the entire game.
5. Weather and Conditions. We've been playing in perfect weather all year. Not much wind, no rain aside from the end there yesterday, domes. Our offense will get worse and defense better once we start playing in cold, snow, and wind.
6. We're the champs. Every team is going to bring it every week and i think it shows.

I think our biggest problem on defense is my #2 comment, the defensive end position and the domino affect it has on our entire defense.

#1 and #2 are the biggest problems. #3 does not matter if we have collins. #4is lessened if we have neal and collins due to more three and outs with better rush and coverage. So this years injuries are having a larger impact than last years injuries. This implies less quality depth to me. Biggest loss on depth that I see was Jenkins. Did we under appreciate him?

One thing that speaks well of our Defence, passer rating of 79.3, that is quite good.

[pbmax]

Well, I am not sure about the overall numbers but I have seen plenty of Woodson blitzes and he has almost always been picked up. Teams know where and when he is coming. I think the Rams even had a screen they called for when he blitzed from the Defense's left.

That is why, much to McGinn's confusion today, I am sure Capers sent Williams and Shields versus the Chargers (and BUUUUSSSCCCHHH!) a number of times late in the game. It seemed to work as the Packers at least had people around Rivers late, even if the sacks numbers weren't there.

[mraynrand]

I was hoping a couple of times sunday to see them rush Matthews and Raji and drop 9 into coverage. Double Gates and Jackson, man underneath on three other receivers, including a RB with two safeties in zone.

[pbmax]

I was hoping a couple of times sunday to see them rush Matthews and Raji and drop 9 into coverage. Double Gates and Jackson, man underneath on three other receivers, including a RB with two safeties in zone.

I had thoughts along similar lines with the 3 and 4 man rush but I read a blog post on Cheesehead TV about delayed routes giving Capers and his fire zones fits. The idea is that you keep six or seven in to block the (expected) blitz, then leak a RB or TE out after the surge or overload is identified. They run drag routes across the formation after everyone is committed. If the underneath guys all play man, then there is no one there to defend that player. The blogger said the Lions did this last year and teams failed to pick up on it.

This year apparently, its becoming a recurring theme. To combat this with pressure, someone needs to get home quick or you have to play more zone coverage near the LOS.

I think that is why Hawk and Bishop have been doing the coverage then blitz look at times. They are reading the back/TE and if they don't go out, they blitz.

[Gunakor]

Barnett is a far better player than Hawk. You are grasping at straws,

I never compared Barnett to Hawk. If anything I compared Barnett to Bishop and said the defense got better with Bishop playing in Barnett's stead. Do you dispute what happened last season?

[prime311]

I was hoping a couple of times sunday to see them rush Matthews and Raji and drop 9 into coverage. Double Gates and Jackson, man underneath on three other receivers, including a RB with two safeties in zone.

Maybe in obvious passing situations. You're pretty much guaranteeing a 5+ yard run play with this.

[woodbuck27]

I cannot put my finger on what's up with the D. They'll put teams in 3rd and long and then give it up. They'll look horrible until they need a stop and then they'll come through (like the last 2 drives yesterday). I don't know that things are all that different than the end of last year, where they closed multiple games out with a last minute TO, doing just enough. They're giving up more as the offense is rolling harder than Optimus Prime on C1al!s.

The only way that I can find to describe their play is "clutch", although the way that they get to the clutch looks pretty fugly. In ways, they're like the Eli Manning (or Big Ben) of defenses: they look like shit until it's crunch time, then they pull it out.

Interesting discussion. I love this post.

This discussion on OUR 'D' and the concern there is certainly huge. OUR team's 'D' is not in the game as it needs to be, for us to feel really confident looking forward to the playoff's. Just how much OUR 'D' is relying on the play of the 'O' is significant. We are seeing opposing defenses get to AR and if he ever gets banged up the Packers are going to become extremely vulnerable. We will see a loss. Loss's.

Last season we gave opposing teams new looks on 'D' as TT filled with hungry players that played very well. Those additions on 'D' look stunned this season. RE: Reports... Somehow any team has to find a way to exercise pressure on the opposing QB. We lost an effective DE in Cullen Jenkins and for years we have needed a good rush on the QB from the DE position. We are vulerable in the middle losing Safety Nick Collins and Tramone Williams isn't the impact player at CB that we had hoped he'd be. What is Charles Woodson? A CB or a safety?

OUR team needs to focus. Get back to the basics.

If I was a HC and wanted to set my game plan to defeat us I'd play a conservative offensive strategy and win the clock. I'd keep AR off the field and ensure offensive dominance best by running the ball. When the Packer 'O' is doing it's thing. I'd apply heat on AR given that OUR OL isn't that great.

Yup we are 8-0 but that's a BIG, ' So What ' !

The objective is another Super Bowl appearance and let the best team win. Is anyone paying attention to the way the NY Giants are operating this season? Have you written off the Atlanta Falcons? Are you saying 'NO' to the 49er's because of their offense? Are you asking yourself are the Lions for real? Are you paying attention to the way the Bears are playing?

It's all very interesting to me because I love the NFL as a whole and I know that the two teams that survive to the Super Bowl are those teams that have peaked at just the right time to survive the playoffs. Our team certainly has a chance to be one of those two teams in OUR conference to win the NFC bid to win a Super Bowl Title. We need to see the results of a change in focus for our team. That game Vs San Diego and al those points OUR 'D' gave up certainly raises concerns among Packer fans.

I believe certainly that TT and MM will take care of the obvious best they can. I then as a fan can relax.

I come here and read the posts of some and the detail I get on how OUR 'D' is playing is outstanding information. I wish I could contribute something in terms of an answer but I cannot see Packer games this season due to my social life becoming somewhat more interesting. I see the concerns on OUR 'D', as it's obvious that we are extremely vulnerable when we play any team solid at QB.

In the next eight games I expect to see TT and MM work something different out. We must stop giving up BIG plays on 'D. We have to find a way to apply pressure on the oppositions QB.

It seems to me that the team needs a focus on 'D'. ie Stop the run and NOT allow the BIG play. How to get that done? Can that be done with current personnel? The HC and his coaching personnel need to focus on more consistency.

There's over the top pressure right now to protect OUR QB and that has to be addressed always as a first on OUR team.

The 'D' has to stop giving up the BIG play.

TT? and MM?

PACKERS FOREVER.