Nick Collins

[Harlan Huckleby]

Been thinking about decline of Packers secondary. I think Packer D has been hurt just as much by loss of Collins as the Colts used to dip whenever Bob Sanders would go down. Obviously totally different players, but net effect is same.

Won't go so far as to say it is like loosing Ed Reed or Troy Polamaulu. I won't say it, but I wonder.

no pass rush, but they aren't covering at all

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree.

[Brandon494]

Obviously when you lose the 2nd best FS in the league its going to hurt but the bottom line is we are not getting any pressure on opposing QBs.

[pbmax]

This theory does not explain poor performance in the secondary prior to his injury. I think the Packers had not adjusted to opponents new attacks, based off film of last season.

Losing Collins has slowed down that adjustment, or made it necessary to repeat.

Plus the pass rush.

[Brandon494]

This theory does not explain poor performance in the secondary prior to his injury.

I mean he only played 1 and a half games and the first game was against the Saints.

[Upnorth]

Loosing Collins hurts a lot, but there has not been a detectable change in poinys or yards given up per game. The best secondary with no pass rush will still look mediocre at best. The lions made no big changes to the secondary but went from historically bad to middle of pack by improving the pass rush. If wladen so'oto and neal can improve, our secondary will look all world again. Williams and sheilds are solid to great, burrnet with a cast starts on everyteam in the league, woodson is still one of the better players out there. We pressure the qb, we get picks and stops. The start of the sd game we had great pass rush, and that gave us 14 points. It got tired and look what happened.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I mean he only played 1 and a half games and the first game was against the Saints.
+1

first few games mean little, especially this year. defenses were a mess across nfl

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Completely agree with this. The loss of Nick Collins is being felt in a big way right now.

[RashanGary]

Reed, Polumalu and Woodson seem to be the best at playing a freelance/unpredictable style of defense.


As far as playing one deep standard responsiblity safety, I haven't watched everyone, but Collins might be the best in the league. He covers both sides of the field with his elite speed. He only jumps routes when there is no one getting behind him. He's disciplined. He's the best tackling Packer I've seen.

The way Shields and Williams were locking down the outside, Collins was patrolling the deep middle and Hawk had the inside zones coordinated. . . . . Woodson was the wildcard that made our defense unpredictable.

Without a Collins to lock down the deep middle, we have one less player close to the line and one less dominant tackler on the field.


We miss him. . . badly.


If Burnett can get his responsibilities down and stop blowing coverages. . . Shields seems to be starting to play lock down coverage again. Williams is getting close to his old self. Neal may come back for the last 2 or 3 games of the season. He could be a Starks-like infusion to our pass rush.

There are reasons to think we could make big steps forward, but we'll always miss Collins. He's special. He's not like a Woodson, Reed or Polumalu where you never know what you're going to get, but he's dominant in that even though you know what his job is, he does it better than anyone in the league. Burnett isn't even close. Burnett might develop more into that cerebral type, but he's not the dominant physical presence that Collins is and that part of Collins game was a perfect fit for our defense. We had dominant man corners and one player who could handle the deep middle. With those three guys playing the job of 4 guys, it's like we had an extra pass defender on every play. It's like we were playing with 12. Not any more.

[pbmax]

I mean he only played 1 and a half games and the first game was against the Saints.

And outside of the first quarter of the Saints game, it didn't look very good at all. It may not have stayed that way and Newton probably isn't a good guide, but something was happening and it wasn't pro-defense. So the issues would seem likely to relate to both Collins related trouble and other sources.

[pbmax]

Reed, Polumalu and Woodson seem to be the best at playing a freelance/unpredictable style of defense.


As far as playing one deep standard responsiblity safety, I haven't watched everyone, but Collins might be the best in the league. He covers both sides of the field with his elite speed. He only jumps routes when there is no one getting behind him. He's disciplined. He's the best tackling Packer I've seen.

... snip

That might have been part of the early adjustment, because Collins was playing up more and Burnett had the deep middle.

[gbgary]

collins loss was big but it's all about the pass rush. still hoping the d has a second half (of the season) turn around like it did last year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Saints are the #1 passing team in the league. The Panthers are the #5 passing team. It's understandable for us to give up a lot of passing yards in those two games--with or without Collins. It's what's happened since that has me worried. We miss Collins a lot. I think the comparison to Sanders, Reed, and Polamalu is a good one. I get to thinking that safeties aren't that important, but losing an elite safety really seems to hurt a defense. Then, you look at Minnesota. They have good talent on defense, but their safeties are terrible and it really makes their defense average.

[RashanGary]

That might have been part of the early adjustment, because Collins was playing up more and Burnett had the deep middle.

Yeah. I didn't understand that. Collins was so good at what he did the last few years. . . . I guess they wanted to expand his responsibilities into more of that near the line freelancer. Sure, those type of players are special in their way, but there are other ways to be special too.

Harry Sydney says great football is doing regular things at an extraordinary level. That's what Collins did. He always made the tackle. He broke up the pass. He made the interception. He didn't freelance around like a joker on the field, but he did his regular job in an utterly dominant way. He just had a feel for space and a feel for taking guys down. He was great at baseball and basketball too. He's just natural on his feet and in space. He wins his battles every time.

[Guiness]

I happen to think we miss Collins a lot. Of course, I'm prejudiced, I played FS! His speed was a safety blanket for the corners, and allowed them to play the coverage they wanted to. IMO Tramon in particular played a lot of very tight coverage. The down side of that is that sometimes a guy can give you the slip. Maybe it's his shoulder injury, but he's playing farther off guys this year. It could be because Collins is not there.

OT, but any more news on Collins' recovery? Last thing I saw was an interview with him talking about going into coaching. Not a good sign.

[King Friday]

The loss of Collins wouldn't be as bad if Burnett had something other than a club over his hand.

[Upnorth]

I don't want people to think my opinion is that collins did not matter, we are better with him than not. I just think improving the pass rush will solve a lot of what ails us. We won't be dominant but top ten would be right there. We lead inpicks without a pass rush, imagine where we are with a pass rush. Also burrnet has done everything we could hope for as collins replacement. He lead the league in picks pre club.

[vince]

Obviously Collins is/was a top 5 safety in the league and losing that level of talent hurts the effectiveness of the defense.

Even though Peprah had two picks last week, he seemed to be responsible for a number of coverage gaffes. I’m pretty sure he got sucked in by play action and was out of position on one of the Chargers early TD’s (when Tramon was trailing the deep crossing route across the field) and didn’t pick up guys that Williams handed off to him a couple other times. That’s the kind of stuff that’ll get cleaned up.

Also, the 2 pick-sixes in the first half and the on-side kick made the defense look worse because they were on the field on consecutive series 3 times in one game, which is pretty rare. Things would have looked different if Rodgers had the opportunity to help out the defense by having the ball more often.

So far the offense has helped the team overcome the loss of Collins and Jenkins both pretty well in the win column – the only stat that matters. They could have a downturn, but the defense is just as likely to get better. And if the offensive struggles are due to weather, a defensive “improvement” is likely to happen at the same time.

If Rodgers keeps taking care of the ball the way he has, this team is going to be tough to beat even if the defense uncharacteristically doesn’t get theirs - Collins or not.

[pbmax]

Yeah. I didn't understand that. Collins was so good at what he did the last few years. . . . I guess they wanted to expand his responsibilities into more of that near the line freelancer. Sure, those type of players are special in their way, but there are other ways to be special too.

Burnett is a classic center field deep safety. And Collins is a much more physical presence on the LOS and can blitz. It's where he and Capers want him to be. All of skinbasket's favorite Bigby moments came when Collins played up close. It's not new.

I think last year's pass defense would have presented more of an impediment to the Saints and Panthers. Teams have adjusted, Collin's absence prolonged the Packers response and the pass rush is in neutral.

[mraynrand]

They miss Collins to be sure, but really the whole secondaryy has been in the shitter. Burnett is essentially a rookie, and now a rookie with a club. Williams had the shoulder, and it took him off his game. Shields was in an early funk, recovered only to get himself knocked out with a monumentally stupid decision. Has he fully recovered? Peprah is JAG. With no more injuries, by the end of the season, this group should be OK. But that doesn't mean they won't get picked apart. Woodson is slipping and there is no inside pass rush. I can't see any way that Neal recovers in time to help. Even if he's full strength, any hope of him providing pass rush is wishful thinking. Same goes for So'oto from the outside. This team wil continue to give up points and will have to outscore teams to win. Making it to the NFCC game in San Fran depends on whether the wild card winner will have a decent defense. San Fran will carve them up, and has a good enough defense to slow the offense enough to win.

[RashanGary]

Burnett is a classic center field deep safety. And Collins is a much more physical presence on the LOS and can blitz. It's where he and Capers want him to be. All of skinbasket's favorite Bigby moments came when Collins played up close. It's not new.

I think last year's pass defense would have presented more of an impediment to the Saints and Panthers. Teams have adjusted, Collin's absence prolonged the Packers response and the pass rush is in neutral.'

I'm missing ya here. Collins is better up front? That's what Capers and Collins want?

I don't know, I always liked Collins in that deep middle playing one safety high. We dominated with that.

Physically, sure, Collins is a nice fit at SS and as a blitzer, but just as a pure safety, I think Collins is far more dominant when he can be let loose with a less complex assignment. FS, especially one deep is, "don't let anyone behind you, and if nobody is, then feel free to jump a route. Oh, and when it's time to tackle, by all means, feel free to tackle" Collins was great at that.

It's more simple than, oh. . . . what Charles Woodson does for example, but Collins dominated in his own way. He and the two corners allowed Capers to open a whole new can of "WTF are they doing" whoop ass.

[LEWCWA]

Obviously when you lose the 2nd best FS in the league its going to hurt but the bottom line is we are not getting any pressure on opposing QBs.

I get and understand this, but how aggressive has the D been always playing so far out in front. I have to assume playing with big leads has something to do with how the games are called on D. I'm no expert, but I did toss the ball around at the Holiday Inn or whatever hotel it is last week....

[red]

collins is a massive loss for sure

but the fact that we aren't getting any pass rush what so ever is the main problem

also tramons injury or whatever's wrong with him is a huge problem. he's a shadow of the player he's been the last 2 years. he gives 10 to 15 yard cushions on every play

[pbmax]

'

I'm missing ya here. Collins is better up front? That's what Capers and Collins want?

To the second question, yes, clearly. Why else would Bigby have played deep at all? This is where Capers has wanted him for the entire tenure but has had to move him back deep more than planned due to injuries and ineptitude. It was where he got stationed earlier this year when Burnett was back, and where he was before Burnett got hurt last year.

That is not to say Collins was always in the box, as the answer to your first question is he is equally adept up close and deep. But Capers has tried everything to move him forward for his entire tenure.