A Giant Whine....

[jdrats]

As reported by the GBPG:

http://blogs.greenbaypressgazette.com/blogs/gpg/insider/2011/12/06/did-giants-get-robbed-by-officials/

"Did the New York Giants get robbed by the officials in Sunday’s 38-35 loss to the Packers?
Giants coach Tom Coughlin thinks so."

"Coughlin said Monday he was shown evidence that Ballard got his knee inbounds in the end zone, which should have made it a touchdown.
'I just saw a picture which made me sick to my stomach, which FOX produced and showed, that he’s in, Coughlin said."

Here is a link to the photo in question.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/JCapace/389484_10150599973924377_418837579376_11892851_124 2151001_n.jpg

Two thoughts here:
1. You can't really tell a thing from the photo. It is too dark to actually tell if his knee is even making contact with the ground, and, because of the angle of the shot, you can't actually see where the front of his knee is.

2. If you want to make a catch and ensure it counts as being inbounds, you should simply get two feet down. Ballard seemed to have plenty of time to tap his left toe, but never did. If Coughlin needs a coaching example of this, he can show his team several Packer highlights.

[hoosier]

It must have been something he (Coughlin) ate, because as you say the photo is inconclusive and, even if it were conclusive, the replay officials don't look at photos, they look at film. On second thought this is probably just Coughlin trying to rally his troops and convince them that at 6-6 they're still not out of the hunt. If the NFC East weren't so weak this year we would not have to listen to crap like this.

[pbmax]

Burnett shows you what a knee off the ground looks like and Ballard's looks different, but you can't tell if its contact or just closer.

Would have been a bigger deal but it was the first half.

[Pugger]

It must have been something he (Coughlin) ate, because as you say the photo is inconclusive and, even if it were conclusive, the replay officials don't look at photos, they look at film. On second thought this is probably just Coughlin trying to rally his troops and convince them that at 6-6 they're still not out of the hunt. If the NFC East weren't so weak this year we would not have to listen to crap like this.

Yes, with the Cowgirls' loss they are still in the hunt of the NFC Weak.

[gbpackfan]

I'm so sick and tired of the crying coming out of New York lately. There are numerous calls that the officials missed against the Giants. I don't hear anyone crying about that. The Giants had a chance to take the game into OT. The Packers had 58 SECONDS and were at their own 20. If the Giants D can't keep us from going right down the field for a chip shot FG, then they don't deserve to win. PERIOD! The Giants have lost 4 games for a reason. Maybe if they weren't so focused on looking back (and the refs) they would be more focused for their next opponent(s). Bitches bitch, winners win! Good day.

[mraynrand]

It must have been something he (Coughlin) ate, because as you say the photo is inconclusive and, even if it were conclusive, the replay officials don't look at photos, they look at film. On second thought this is probably just Coughlin trying to rally his troops and convince them that at 6-6 they're still not out of the hunt. If the NFC East weren't so weak this year we would not have to listen to crap like this.


Coughlin used the same technique in '07, especially after their loss to the Patriots in the season finale. If you can play that well against them, there's no reason you can't beat them. Stubby used the same argument when Flynn almost led them to a victory over the Pats last year, except that they did it without Rodgers. So Rodgers comes back and they're totally confident. The problem for Coughlin is that the Giants aren't as good as they were in '07.

[hoosier]

It's true, the comparisons between the 2011 Giants and the 2007 version are lame. The 2007 version finished 10-4 after starting out 0-2. The difference in talent level, especially on defense, is clear. But I suppose if that is the only card Coughlin's got he has no choice but to play it, smelly as it may be.

[channtheman]

What about the missed field goal we had where the Giants used leverage? Or how about we don't play for a field goal with 44 seconds left from the Giants 30 yard line? If this as the last play of the game, AND you could actually tell if it was a TD (you can't), this would actually matter. Watching the play during the game it looked like the middle of his knee came down halfway in bounds and half out of bounds.

[King Friday]

Where are the pictures showing Finley getting mugged 10 yards downfield? I'm guessing you could find 5 or 6 of those that didn't attract any laundry.

[George Cumby]

The knee looks down, but does he have "possession"? Whatever the hell that means, nowadays......

[hoosier]

The shadows and the slight downward angle of the camera make it impossible to tell what his knee is doing. Because of the lack of lighting you can't see where the knee ends and the ground begins. When you look at the video you can see that, as Ballard's momentum carries him out of bounds, his knee is moving more horizontally than vertically. It looks like his knee should have been able to touch down before he reaches the sideline, but for some reason it doesn't. 0:58 is the best view; there you can see that the impact of the knee causes the rubber pellets to fly both in the end zone and on the sideline chalk at the same time. Incomplete was the right call.


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824c71fd/Ballard-s-catch-a-touchdown

[RashanGary]

If it was ruled a touchdown, there's no way to overturn it. It was ruled out of bounds. That's going to stand. It's too close to call. The ref made a call on the field. It stands.

I thought the Jennings one was a crock of shit. He bobbled that thing the whole way. The only thing that made it seem like a catch was his body language. He made it look like he just grabbed it, took a few steps and then walked off like he just won the superbowl. How many milliseconds do both of your hands need to be on the ball with your feet down for it to be a catch. Had a guy hit him (even if he didn't go to the ground) and the ball popped out, would it have been a fumble? I just didn't see possession there, not at any time.

[mraynrand]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070906/070906_vote_hmed_1p.grid-6x2.jpg

[pbmax]

What's clear from the video that is not clear from Granpa Tom's picture is that his knee is NOT down at that instant. But the little rubber pellets, when they pop up, seem to pop up from the blue, I am not seeing them pop up in the white like hoosier is seeing.

Either way, not enough to overturn, the pellets are indirect evidence at best.

[George Cumby]

If it was ruled a touchdown, there's no way to overturn it. It was ruled out of bounds. That's going to stand. It's too close to call. The ref made a call on the field. It stands.
I thought the Jennings one was a crock of shit. He bobbled that thing the whole way. The only thing that made it seem like a catch was his body language. He made it look like he just grabbed it, took a few steps and then walked off like he just won the superbowl. How many milliseconds do both of your hands need to be on the ball with your feet down for it to be a catch. Had a guy hit him (even if he didn't go to the ground) and the ball popped out, would it have been a fumble? I just didn't see possession there, not at any time.

I thought he had possession of it the way he transferred it to his left hand. My perception was that GJ demonstrated possession by one-handing it. But what do I know.

[Smidgeon]

I thought he had possession of it the way he transferred it to his left hand. My perception was that GJ demonstrated possession by one-handing it. But what do I know.

He said afterwards (I know, I know) that he caught it on his fingertips and kept it there on purpose. It's what I saw while I was watching the replays, but everyone else was looking for a palm on the ball to indicate possession.

[Freak Out]

Your team lost Tom.....STFU and get ready for the next game.

[denverYooper]

Your team lost Tom.....STFU and get ready for the next game.

Whining about officiating is the province of losers.

[Freak Out]

Man...one of my earliest memories of a botched call was a Brady Bunch episode where Greg was the team photographer. One of his game photo's clearly showed a toe in-bounds on a late game catch in which his team lost....lesson learned....don't be a whiner like Greg Brady.

[denverYooper]

Losers whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.

http://prisonmovies.nfshost.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/the-rock-0.jpg

[MJZiggy]

Your team lost Tom.....STFU and get ready for the next game. Or focus on this and lose your next game because you were too busy whining and knock yourselves out of the playoffs over it.

[jdrats]

Man...one of my earliest memories of a botched call was a Brady Bunch episode where Greg was the team photographer. One of his game photo's clearly showed a toe in-bounds on a late game catch in which his team lost....lesson learned....don't be a whiner like Greg Brady.

I remember this episode! Lol! IIRC the officials then count the TD and Greg's team wins. Greg is the hero!

So, can we trace all the uproar for instituting instant replay to this media moment? By the time replay came around, did we have an entire generation that believed football should have a Brady Bunch-like fairness? Does every whiner out there somehow believe they can be the hero, just like Greg Brady?

[Pugger]

Hey Tom! Instead of crying about that "TD" why not concentrate on why your defense couldn't stop Rodgers and company with only 58 or so seconds to go in regulation?

[sharpe1027]

This is an unbelievable travesty. Clearly the Giants have been unfairly punished by the inadequate use of advanced technology and this technology is required for a fair game to be played. The NFL should probably revisit their polices and then replay the entire season to give the Giants a far chance. It is amazing that the sport survived the dark ages back when they didn't have 500 camera angles to correct an official's mistake. All of those games should probably be stricken from the record books and the winning teams should give back any trophies and awards.

Keep up the good fight Tom!

[smuggler]

I thought the Jennings one was a crock of shit. He bobbled that thing the whole way. The only thing that made it seem like a catch was his body language. He made it look like he just grabbed it, took a few steps and then walked off like he just won the superbowl. How many milliseconds do both of your hands need to be on the ball with your feet down for it to be a catch.

Only a single instant of possession is a TD in the endzone inf you aren't being taken to the ground by the defender. Jennings grips the ball with his left hand, two feet in bounds, right before the defender slaps it out. Call on the field was a TD, so it stood.

If it would be a fumble on the field, it would certainly be a TD in the endzone. Even if they would have ruled it incomplete on the field, there's a good chance it was a touchdown.

[sharpe1027]

Only a single instant of possession is a TD in the endzone inf you aren't being taken to the ground by the defender. Jennings grips the ball with his left hand, two feet in bounds, right before the defender slaps it out. Call on the field was a TD, so it stood.

If it would be a fumble on the field, it would certainly be a TD in the endzone. Even if they would have ruled it incomplete on the field, there's a good chance it was a touchdown.

I think you are right on the rules, stupid as they may be. If the DB had tackled Jennings and brought him to the ground, instead of cleaning knocking the ball out, it would not have been a catch (assuming the ball still came free at some point). WTF? Does anyone besides me think that it is an insanely stupid set of rules?

[gbgary]

jennings catch was just that...a catch...all the way. had it on his fingertips for three steps. that's where the td is imo.

[jdrats]

jennings catch was just that...a catch...all the way. had it on his fingertips for three steps. that's where the td is imo.

Wasn't there a POS call on a similar Jennings catch in 09 or 10 where he took a couple steps in the endzone and the defender knocked it from his hands, and it was ruled no TD? FWIW I thought both were clearly catches by any standards, including the NFL's cluster fuck of rules.

[Pugger]

The rules for TD catches is a cluster f*ck.

[swede]

Wasn't there a POS call on a similar Jennings catch in 09 or 10 where he took a couple steps in the endzone and the defender knocked it from his hands, and it was ruled no TD? FWIW I thought both were clearly catches by any standards, including the NFL's cluster fuck of rules.
Against the Bears in the flagfest game I think, but he was tackled after he had possession in the endzone and it called into consideration the "going to ground" exceptions.

In the catch against the Giants I thought it was a catch at first, then I saw the replay twice and thought it wasn't a catch, and then I was shocked to hear that the play stood. Watching another replay I did see the instant of firm possession just before the defender slapped it away. Since Jennings wasn't going to ground the exceptions regarding control of the ball did not apply.

[sharpe1027]

The rules are beyond absurd. What moron made up a rule that retroactively changes a catch and TD into a non-catch based upon actions occurring after the catch was already completed? If after the DB knocked the ball away, supposedly after the catch was already made and the was play dead, the DB had ran into Jennings knocking him down, is it then incomplete? Actions after a play would normally dead suddenly change the outcome of what happened before the pay was dead? If Jennings had dove after the ball when it was knocked away, thus going to the ground, would it suddenly become incomplete? If Jennings had immediately taken a knee to celebrate, would it suddenly become incomplete?

[Smidgeon]

Against the Bears in the flagfest game I think, but he was tackled after he had possession in the endzone and it called into consideration the "going to ground" exceptions.

In the catch against the Giants I thought it was a catch at first, then I saw the replay twice and thought it wasn't a catch, and then I was shocked to hear that the play stood. Watching another replay I did see the instant of firm possession just before the defender slapped it away. Since Jennings wasn't going to ground the exceptions regarding control of the ball did not apply.

In the Bears' game, Jennings took three steps in the end zone after catching it and before being knocked to the ground--and it was overturned. That's the part I don't get about the rules.

[mraynrand]

Do you remember when ESPN used to run those live polls during MNF, where they had people vote on catch/no catch, TD/no TD, etc. The thing I remember is that the audience was always right. There's a psychological effect that leads to this, and I'm forgetting it, but it's similar to when you ask a very large group to guess the number of beans in a jar, for example. The average of those guesses is usually very accurate. I think ESPN pulled that feature at the request of the NFL, because the collective was much more accurate than Ed Hochuli and Jeff Triplette.

[mraynrand]

When I said the NFL pulled that feature, I meant having fans guess the number of jellybeans in a jar.

[swede]

When I said the NFL pulled that feature, I meant having fans guess the number of jellybeans in a jar.
That might have been the best 14,154th post in Packerrats history.

[sharpe1027]

That might have been the best 14,154th post in Packerrats history.

In 10+ years, I plan to top it. Stay tuned.

[swede]

In the Bears' game, Jennings took three steps in the end zone after catching it and before being knocked to the ground--and it was overturned. That's the part I don't get about the rules.
I wasn't sure how that could be, so I went back to look. The defender had his hands on Jennings before Jennings gets both feet down. Despite the fact that Jennings had possession for three full steps the "going to ground" special rules had been invoked and he needed to stay on his feet or maintain control after going to the ground.

I also think that possession in the end zone should trump the "going to ground" rule.

[mraynrand]

I'm sick of "going to ground." I don't ever want to hear that phrase again unless talking about woodchucks, spies, or electrical wiring.

[Little Whiskey]

I'm sick of "going to ground." I don't ever want to hear that phrase again unless talking about woodchucks, spies, or electrical wiring......or non-packer players

*Fixed*