packerrats by subscription

[Harlan Huckleby]

Its time for PR to take the next step and become a site we can be proud of. To get there will require some revenue so that an American citizen with some manners and taste can be retained to manage the site.

How often do you dwell here in a year? Surely all that entertainment is worth something. How much does pay-per-view porn cost, and how many minutes do you last? Why, the garbage can alone is a bargain. I'll pay $5 per year - what say you?

Lets fix-up this slum, and that starts with tossing out the slumlord.

[Bretsky]

You've been right enough this year
Bad Idea

[Joemailman]

Occupy Packerrats!

[MadtownPacker]

Occupy Packerrats!
I pretty sure youre all 99% assholes.

[HowardRoark]

I pretty sure youre all 99% assholes.

Yes, they are.

[Harlan Huckleby]

we got the Banker and The Man on one side, and the peeps on the other. Lets take down this machine! Power to the posters!

[Joemailman]

http://stotop.com/cache/28baf67cd7654230502a53e79ed4ef26.jpg

[mraynrand]

Its time for PR to take the next step and become a site we can be proud of. To get there will require some revenue so that an American citizen with some manners and taste can be retained to manage the site.

How often do you dwell here in a year? Surely all that entertainment is worth something. How much does pay-per-view porn cost, and how many minutes do you last? Why, the garbage can alone is a bargain. I'll pay $5 per year - what say you?

Lets fix-up this slum, and that starts with tossing out the slumlord.


I totally agree with you. Shocking that the Harlan actually endorses capitalism. Anyone who is too cheap to pony up 5 bucks/year for Packerrats is a miserly tool. For the record, Dennis Kucinich is opposed.


http://blog.cleveland.com/medical/2009/02/rep_dennis_kucinich_wants_metr.html

Rep. Dennis Kucinich wants MetroHealth Medical Center to rethink fee for poorest patients
Published: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 5:30 AM Updated: Monday, March 02, 2009, 5:15 PM

U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich wants MetroHealth Medical Center to revise its plan to charge a small co-payment to its poorest patients seeking care, saying the new policy would hurt those who most need help.
The Cuyahoga County-owned hospital plans to introduce the sliding-scale, point-of-service fee in March. On the low end, patients would be asked to pay $5 to see a doctor or $10 for an emergency room visit.
"Five or 10 dollars may not seem like much, but for the families being forced to pay it, it may mean they go without a meal," said Kucinich, a Cleveland Democrat.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Thank you for that report, Debbie


http://premisepunchtag.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/debbie_downer.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

I get the feeling that this is Plan B in case Harlan can't get Uncle Sam to fund his retirement.

[Joemailman]

I get the feeling that this is Plan B in case Harlan can't get Uncle Sam to fund his retirement.

Sam Hurd?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I was not thinking of myself as the American citizen with manners and taste who should be hired to turn this place around, but I am honored by your nomination. I suggested $5 per year as a starting point for dues, we'll have to do a detailed accounting of expenses. Perhaps a funding drive of former posters will be necessary as well, we can form an alumni association.

[Patler]

I was not thinking of myself as the American citizen with manners and taste who should be hired to turn this place around, but I am honored by your nomination. I suggested $5 per year as a starting point for dues, we'll have to do a detailed accounting of expenses. Perhaps a funding drive of former posters will be necessary as well, we can form an alumni association.

I'm all in favor of it. I think the subscription should be at least $5/month. Perhaps you should just go with the standard $19.99/month.

Of course, I have absolutely no intention of paying even $5/year, but if you are going to have a subscription fee, do it right and make yourself at least look legitimate!

[mraynrand]

The JS is something like 40-50/year. $19.99/month is absurd, of course, but I assume that was intentional. $5/year is nothing. I'd love to see the cheapskates who wouldn't post here if they had to pay $5/year come out of the woodwork. Refusing $5/year to cover nominal expenses for the operator demonstrates a skinflint level that is almost beyond comprehension to me.

At the same time, a charge could promote a legitimacy that extends to regular features, with posters who have demonstrated knowledge and a capacity to write compelling stuff actually being paid a nominal amount.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd love to see the cheapskates who wouldn't post here if they had to pay $5/year come out of the woodwork. Refusing $5/year to cover nominal expenses for the operator demonstrates a skinflint level that is almost beyond comprehension to me.
Well spoken. Hear that, Patler?


At the same time, a charge could promote a legitimacy that extends to regular features, with posters who have demonstrated knowledge and a capacity to write compelling stuff actually being paid a nominal amount. No, I think it is critical that all funds be funneled to the new professional manager. Don't want to spread things too thin.

[Patler]

The JS is something like 40-50/year. $19.99/month is absurd, of course, but I assume that was intentional. $5/year is nothing. I'd love to see the cheapskates who wouldn't post here if they had to pay $5/year come out of the woodwork. Refusing $5/year to cover nominal expenses for the operator demonstrates a skinflint level that is almost beyond comprehension to me.

Consider this to be me coming out of the woodwork.

Yes, $5/year is nothing. But.....

I really see no reason to give $5 to "someone" who has lied to me about the ownership and management of the site. Those running this site have lost my trust, so no, I would not give them $5, nor $1, nor 1 cent. For all I know, they would collect the fees and simply shut the site down. My trust is that low right now.

There are plenty of free sites to meet the need, sites that have not yet earned my mistrust. A few of those I might be willing to pay a subscription to. But not this one. Not right now anyway.

I recognize that this was likely just a bullcrap thread started to rile people up, which was the reason for my suggestion of $19.99/mo. But your reply seemed at least semi-serious, so I have given you my serious response.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Those running this site have lost my trust, so no, I would not give them $5, nor $1, nor 1 cent.
No, you don't understand, all the money will be going to me, or rather to the new manager. I thought, however, that some small retirement gift might be budgeted to thank Madtown for his years of service. Perhaps a piece of costume jewelry, a pen knife, or a little flashlight that attaches to a key ring.

[mraynrand]

Consider this to be me coming out of the woodwork.

Yes, $5/year is nothing. But.....

I really see no reason to give $5 to "someone" who has lied to me about the ownership and management of the site. Those running this site have lost my trust, so no, I would not give them $5, nor $1, nor 1 cent. For all I know, they would collect the fees and simply shut the site down. My trust is that low right now.

There are plenty of free sites to meet the need, sites that have not yet earned my mistrust. A few of those I might be willing to pay a subscription to. But not this one. Not right now anyway.

I recognize that this was likely just a bullcrap thread started to rile people up, which was the reason for my suggestion of $19.99/mo. But your reply seemed at least semi-serious, so I have given you my serious response.

I was absolutely serious. If you like the site, but are unwilling to pay $5/year, you're an incredible skinflint. I accept your other reasons as legitimate for not liking aspects of the site or mistrusting the management, but seriously, are you really 'risking' $5? If you like other sites better, I totally understand. more power to you.

[Patler]

No, you don't understand, all the money will be going to me, or rather to the new manager. I thought, however, that some small retirement gift might be budgeted to thank Madtown for his years of service. Perhaps a piece of costume jewelry, a pen knife, or a little flashlight that attaches to a key ring.

So you mean it would go to "Joe"??????

[Patler]

I was absolutely serious. If you like the site, but are unwilling to pay $5/year, you're an incredible skinflint. I accept your other reasons as legitimate for not liking aspects of the site or mistrusting the management, but seriously, are you really 'risking' $5? If you like other sites better, I totally understand. more power to you.

Ya, I knew you were serious, as was I in my response to you. When someone I don't know (I know absolutely no one on here), have no reason to trust (fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me) asks me for money for an undefined purpose; I generally just walk away. That is what I would do here. It has nothing to do with being cheap, it has everything to do with being used.

To me it would be almost like sending the $1 bill to the first five names on the list included with a chain letter. Not much of a "risk" there either, but I don't do it. Do you?

[Patler]

If you like the site, but are unwilling to pay $5/year, you're an incredible skinflint. I accept your other reasons as legitimate for not liking aspects of the site or mistrusting the management, but seriously, are you really 'risking' $5? If you like other sites better, I totally understand. more power to you.

I like and have read a lot of newspaper sites, but when they start asking for subscriptions (some are just $3.99/mo) I don't automatically pay it just because I "liked" them for a while.

I like this site.
I don't necessarily like other sites "better".
I don't trust this site.
I probably trust other sites more right now.

[mraynrand]

I like and have read a lot of newspaper sites, but when they start asking for subscriptions (some are just $3.99/mo) I don't automatically pay it just because I "liked" them for a while.


What kind of argument is this? If you 'like' the site, it means you use it (if you're going to parse this, I'm finished with this). If you use it, it should be worth something to you. Certainly Packerrats is worth more to you than the first people in chain letter. That just sounded flat out stupid. $5 is nothing.

Plus, you are probably one of the people who could get paid something for a regular contribution.

Maybe Harlan could actually make a go of this site. But not with skinflints unwilling to give up $5.

[Patler]

What kind of argument is this? If you 'like' the site, it means you use it (if you're going to parse this, I'm finished with this). If you use it, it should be worth something to you. Certainly Packerrats is worth more to you than the first people in chain letter. That just sounded flat out stupid. $5 is nothing.

Plus, you are probably one of the people who could get paid something for a regular contribution.

Maybe Harlan could actually make a go of this site. But not with skinflints unwilling to give up $5.

What did I parse of yours? Your "warning" makes no sense to me.

Why is it so hard to understand that some things are of mild interest, but not so much that I would pay for it?

Why would I even be interested in writing articles when I don't even start threads here any more? I've learned my lesson on that, as well as a few other things. Even if I was interested in writing an article for pay, why should I believe it would actually happen? Would the check come from "Joe II"? (As I said, "fool me once....")

By the way, wasn't "Joe" investing in software, hit tracking and a bunch of things to take this site to a new level? Weren't there talks of contributions, advertising, selling t-shirts or some such nonsense under the illustrious new ownership? This all sounds vaguely familiar.

I dislike being taken advantage of even when there is no money involved. I give readily of my time, assets and money for many, many charitable things, yet I do not respond to a telephone solicitation of any type. I have an inherent mistrust for them as well as for any "pay" website. I am very careful about where and how I send personal information, so when a payment is involved I stay away if there is any nagging feeling of mistrust at all.

I suspect a new "sale" of the website is in the wind.......

[swede]

To me it would be almost like sending the $1 bill to the first five names on the list included with a chain letter.

Can you get me in on that deal?

[Harlan Huckleby]

My joke has turned into a Festivus celebration. I'm going to pin nutz after the airing of grievances is through.

[Patler]

My joke has turned into a Festivus celebration. I'm going to pin nutz after the airing of grievances is through.


Which is mostly what you hoped for and intended, isn't it?

[Harlan Huckleby]

right, it's my fault that mommy got drunk and hit daddy with an iron pan

[retailguy]

What did I parse of yours? Your "warning" makes no sense to me.

Why is it so hard to understand that some things are of mild interest, but not so much that I would pay for it?

Why would I even be interested in writing articles when I don't even start threads here any more? I've learned my lesson on that, as well as a few other things. Even if I was interested in writing an article for pay, why should I believe it would actually happen? Would the check come from "Joe II"? (As I said, "fool me once....")

By the way, wasn't "Joe" investing in software, hit tracking and a bunch of things to take this site to a new level? Weren't there talks of contributions, advertising, selling t-shirts or some such nonsense under the illustrious new ownership? This all sounds vaguely familiar.

I dislike being taken advantage of even when there is no money involved. I give readily of my time, assets and money for many, many charitable things, yet I do not respond to a telephone solicitation of any type. I have an inherent mistrust for them as well as for any "pay" website. I am very careful about where and how I send personal information, so when a payment is involved I stay away if there is any nagging feeling of mistrust at all.

I suspect a new "sale" of the website is in the wind.......

Not sure if this is directed at me, or madtown, or Joe, or whomever. But I'll respond.

The only reason that "Joe" came about was that Madtown was burned out, and didn't want me to take over, fearing a mass exodus that in retrospect probably wouldn't have happened. There was no scam to take your money. Or anything else.

I did have plans to bring some revenue to this site. But that takes several things, some that I could do, others that I needed help for. Compounding the difficulty with that, there is a sarcastic bent to the poster population here, with an "expert" mentality that would be too preoccupied with telling me how to do it right, that they'd forget to buy the tshirt. Tshirts were never a money making proposal, I just thought it'd be cool to find someone else at a home or away game by tshirt alone. My plans had them for sale at cost + shipping actually.

Anyhow, sorry you distrust me. That's OK with me, I guess, I'm now just a regular poster with a PM box that's full. (All my great intentions didn't work out so well) So, all those plans are down the drain, but FWIW, I was very interested in having you contribute to the site when I was in charge. I felt that your knowledge would've drawn more folks here, and that would've given the site an opportunity to grow, and you to have more points of view to read, and more knowledgeable debate partners to discuss issues with. Most of those folks are gone, I believe.

Cue some sarcastic mraynrand comment, or another tangent "discussion" by Harlan to create dissention. Par for the course.... (back to your regularly scheduled programming)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Joe, I had zero intention of creating dissention and was surprised anybody took things seriously. I understand people get angry over this and that, but didn't realize there were grudges lingering. Madtown doesn't owe anybody anything, not even openness. I appreciate his gift of the forum maintenance and forgive his many crimes against myself and human decency.

[Joemailman]

Does this mean you don't want my $5.00?

[Patler]

Not sure if this is directed at me, or madtown, or Joe, or whomever. But I'll respond.

The only reason that "Joe" came about was that Madtown was burned out, and didn't want me to take over, fearing a mass exodus that in retrospect probably wouldn't have happened. There was no scam to take your money. Or anything else.

I did have plans to bring some revenue to this site. But that takes several things, some that I could do, others that I needed help for. Compounding the difficulty with that, there is a sarcastic bent to the poster population here, with an "expert" mentality that would be too preoccupied with telling me how to do it right, that they'd forget to buy the tshirt. Tshirts were never a money making proposal, I just thought it'd be cool to find someone else at a home or away game by tshirt alone. My plans had them for sale at cost + shipping actually.

Anyhow, sorry you distrust me. That's OK with me, I guess, I'm now just a regular poster with a PM box that's full. (All my great intentions didn't work out so well) So, all those plans are down the drain, but FWIW, I was very interested in having you contribute to the site when I was in charge. I felt that your knowledge would've drawn more folks here, and that would've given the site an opportunity to grow, and you to have more points of view to read, and more knowledgeable debate partners to discuss issues with. Most of those folks are gone, I believe.

Cue some sarcastic mraynrand comment, or another tangent "discussion" by Harlan to create dissention. Par for the course.... (back to your regularly scheduled programming)

Actually, my distrust is not directed at you, nor any one in particular. It is an overall quality that the site has earned, of which the "Joe" saga is just a very recognizable part.

I was willing to go along with the "joke" of this thread, and suggested the more credible fee of $19.95/mo as fair since, I wouldn't pay it anyway. However, when seriously accused of being a skinflint for not being willing to pay even $5/yr., I became serious in expressing my opinions.

Rest assured, it goes way beyond "Joe". I had mostly gotten past that and was still posting regularly, as I always had. For completely other reasons, I no longer do. I rarely if ever start a thread, haven't for a few months, and I limit myself to a single reply or two in the football threads, for the most part. My reasons for backing away from the Packer board are not "Joe" related at all, but do factor into why I would not pay to continue on this site. My new thoughts and opinions I use to start threads elsewhere. I still read here and comment only about things of interest not being discussed on other sites.

At Packerrats I find myself more interested in the ancillary boards right now, the Packer board not so much.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I was willing to go along with the "joke" of this threadsorry my "joke" was not more "funny"

[Harlan Huckleby]

Does this mean you don't want my $5.00? it seems the plan is falling apart

[Patler]

sorry my "joke" was not more "funny"

"it" is what "it" is.

[mraynrand]

it seems the plan is falling apart


Yes, but it sure exposed what some people think of this place. I'd give you five bucks. I guess I'm a cheap date. (Don't take that literally Harlan)

[Harlan Huckleby]

well, I'm not going to let this setback spoil my christmas cheer. there will be more scams & schemes to work.

[MadtownPacker]

Yes, but it sure exposed what some people think of this place.
Guess I would have to agree with that.

Patler - What can I say, wow, Im blown away. I guess I will just be totally open with you and hope you can feel me on this.

Let me start by saying I didnt have anything to do with this thread or its topic. I have zero intentions of charging to visit. If you didnt notice I dont even run ads. I have never asked for one cent even if I needed it and guess what I dont need it now. Part of what RG says is true, I was not up to the task of running the forum. You know that but what you dont know why. PackerRats, Retail, "Joe" or I have done nothing that has damaged or cost you anything other than your time which is your choice. If I didnt care about this place Im sure I could have dumped it off somehow. I was just at a time in my life when a family member was ill and my mind and time was elsewhere.

Retailguy was my friend still and someone I trusted enough to ask such a favor. Yeah what I did which was deceptive but really was it that big of a crime? At no point was this forum in any danger of not existing. I figured why not let the place have a different driver for a while. I never really did anything as "Joe" outside of a few things RG wasnt familiar with. RG was the one that handled the persona. We would talk about stuff on the phone some forum some personal. He is a good friend and a good guy. I truly did him wrong with all this and for that Im sorry. He is really the only person I owe an apology to in regard to all that mess.

If any issue is with me for not providing you the examples I said regarding your post I apologize. It was not a big deal to me but maybe it was to you. I meant nothing by it and I had just noticed things like words or grammar I had rarely seen in your post. You have always been a revered poster so it is disappointing that you no longer feel this place is worthy of your time. I wish you would reconsider but either way the show must go on and admission is always free.

[MadtownPacker]

Not sure if this is directed at me, or madtown, or Joe, or whomever. But I'll respond.

The only reason that "Joe" came about was that Madtown was burned out, and didn't want me to take over, fearing a mass exodus that in retrospect probably wouldn't have happened. There was no scam to take your money. Or anything else.

I did have plans to bring some revenue to this site. But that takes several things, some that I could do, others that I needed help for. Compounding the difficulty with that, there is a sarcastic bent to the poster population here, with an "expert" mentality that would be too preoccupied with telling me how to do it right, that they'd forget to buy the tshirt. Tshirts were never a money making proposal, I just thought it'd be cool to find someone else at a home or away game by tshirt alone. My plans had them for sale at cost + shipping actually.

Anyhow, sorry you distrust me. That's OK with me, I guess, I'm now just a regular poster with a PM box that's full. (All my great intentions didn't work out so well) So, all those plans are down the drain, but FWIW, I was very interested in having you contribute to the site when I was in charge. I felt that your knowledge would've drawn more folks here, and that would've given the site an opportunity to grow, and you to have more points of view to read, and more knowledgeable debate partners to discuss issues with. Most of those folks are gone, I believe.

Cue some sarcastic mraynrand comment, or another tangent "discussion" by Harlan to create dissention. Par for the course.... (back to your regularly scheduled programming)RG - I am sorry man. I put you in a bad spot and was messed up to someone who did nothing to deserve it. I know there is a way we can work together but I cant let you deal with personnel things man. I dont care about making $$ I just want this place to become the best it can and I really want you to be part of it.

[mraynrand]

Cue some sarcastic mraynrand comment, or another tangent "discussion" by Harlan to create dissention. Par for the course.... (back to your regularly scheduled programming)

I enjoy making the sarcastic remark here and there. At times you need it, but that doesn't absolve me for being a jerk. Mostly you've been a great Packerrats member and are well-intentioned.

The 'bad' stuff about this site is far outweighed by the good and great stuff. That's why I said - and meant - that I would gladly pay $5. So sue me.

[retailguy]

RG - I am sorry man. I put you in a bad spot and was messed up to someone who did nothing to deserve it. I know there is a way we can work together but I cant let you deal with personnel things man. I dont care about making $$ I just want this place to become the best it can and I really want you to be part of it.


(sigh). One day I'll learn to communicate around here. Funny thing, I post on a couple of other sites and don't have this much trouble communicating. It must be me. I keep joking about an "Outlaw" forum, but I really don't know why folks can't read what I write and interpret what I meant. I'm really clueless.

I'm not pissed at anyone. I don't care where this site goes. Honestly. If it grows, it grows. If it doesn't, it doesn't. What my earlier comment meant is that I'm clueless how to get this psycho group to band together to do ANYTHING, except maybe fight and argue. My plans are useless, and my input is really not wanted by a bunch of folks here. I'm OK, with that. Well, as "OK" as one can be with that.

No hard feelings and stop apologizing. What happened was my fault. My plans were not the direction that the membership wanted, so no one supported it. Tell us what you want, and let's do that. Or lets do nothing. I don't care any more. (I mean that for what it is, it isn't some kind of pouting shot....)

Apparently when you're a moderator, you don't have the same limits on PM inboxes. When you gave me upload rights for the photos I was going to post, it took away the moderator rights I had. Now I can't respond to your PM's but can still receive them. This software rocks, for the most part, but like anything it isn't perfect. The PM stuff really sucks and I'm too lazy to do anything with it. There are some PM's that I don't want to delete and most I don't give a shit about. But you've got to go through them one at a time, and I really don't care that much to deal with it. In the meantime, I'll try to remember to email you.

[retailguy]

Actually, my distrust is not directed at you, nor any one in particular. It is an overall quality that the site has earned, of which the "Joe" saga is just a very recognizable part.

I was willing to go along with the "joke" of this thread, and suggested the more credible fee of $19.95/mo as fair since, I wouldn't pay it anyway. However, when seriously accused of being a skinflint for not being willing to pay even $5/yr., I became serious in expressing my opinions.

Rest assured, it goes way beyond "Joe". I had mostly gotten past that and was still posting regularly, as I always had. For completely other reasons, I no longer do. I rarely if ever start a thread, haven't for a few months, and I limit myself to a single reply or two in the football threads, for the most part. My reasons for backing away from the Packer board are not "Joe" related at all, but do factor into why I would not pay to continue on this site. My new thoughts and opinions I use to start threads elsewhere. I still read here and comment only about things of interest not being discussed on other sites.

At Packerrats I find myself more interested in the ancillary boards right now, the Packer board not so much.

Thanks for clarifying. No devious intent on my part, but it came off that way and I can see why you think the way you do. As far as I'm aware, there is no attempt to change anything right now. I don't believe there is a plan to start fundraising of any type, and the costs to maintain this are relatively nominal. I don't think we need any money, I was trying to raise some to invest back into the site. I wanted to approach a couple of the players foundations to make some donations in trade for access to players with chats and those types of things.

I was hoping that we could "partner" with one of the players foundations, and market their cause, building the mission of their foundation while at the same time building the credibility of the fan base here. That takes time, money, and patience. Time and patience are not in abundant supply here. The money comes with 'strings'. It isn't worth it.

Edit - (This was just one of a half dozen ideas. All took time and money, and some volunteer support...) nuff said.

I know what you mean about the Packer room. I share your belief. I'm not in there very much anymore either.

[MJZiggy]

(sigh). One day I'll learn to communicate around here. Funny thing, I post on a couple of other sites and don't have this much trouble communicating. It must be me. I keep joking about an "Outlaw" forum, but I really don't know why folks can't read what I write and interpret what I meant. I'm really clueless.

I'm not pissed at anyone. I don't care where this site goes. Honestly. If it grows, it grows. If it doesn't, it doesn't. What my earlier comment meant is that I'm clueless how to get this psycho group to band together to do ANYTHING, except maybe fight and argue. My plans are useless, and my input is really not wanted by a bunch of folks here. I'm OK, with that. Well, as "OK" as one can be with that.

No hard feelings and stop apologizing. What happened was my fault. My plans were not the direction that the membership wanted, so no one supported it. Tell us what you want, and let's do that. Or lets do nothing. I don't care any more. (I mean that for what it is, it isn't some kind of pouting shot....)

Apparently when you're a moderator, you don't have the same limits on PM inboxes. When you gave me upload rights for the photos I was going to post, it took away the moderator rights I had. Now I can't respond to your PM's but can still receive them. This software rocks, for the most part, but like anything it isn't perfect. The PM stuff really sucks and I'm too lazy to do anything with it. There are some PM's that I don't want to delete and most I don't give a shit about. But you've got to go through them one at a time, and I really don't care that much to deal with it. In the meantime, I'll try to remember to email you.

Check out the thread Tarlam! started on contacting him. There are instructions in it for downloading your PMs and clearing your inbox. I had to do it myself yesterday.

[MJZiggy]

I wanted to approach a couple of the players foundations to make some donations in trade for access to players with chats and those types of things.

I was hoping that we could "partner" with one of the players foundations, and market their cause, building the mission of their foundation while at the same time building the credibility of the fan base here. That takes time, money, and patience. Time and patience are not in abundant supply here. The money comes with 'strings'. It isn't worth it.


We did a bit of that in 2007-8. Remember we had an interview with DD's mom (who is a fantastic lady by the way--we had a lovely chat after the interview was done). I had wanted to do that with Mark Tauscher's charity as well. Problem is that in order for us to have any serious kind of exposure to "sell," we have to have more traffic to the site. And as you said, it requires elements that have to be driven by volunteer support.

[mraynrand]

I was willing to go along with the "joke" of this thread, and suggested the more credible fee of $19.95/mo as fair since, I wouldn't pay it anyway. However, when seriously accused of being a skinflint for not being willing to pay even $5/yr., I became serious in expressing my opinions.
The accusation was conditional




Rest assured, it goes way beyond "Joe". I had mostly gotten past that and was still posting regularly, as I always had. For completely other reasons, I no longer do. I rarely if ever start a thread, haven't for a few months, and I limit myself to a single reply or two in the football threads, for the most part. My reasons for backing away from the Packer board are not "Joe" related at all, but do factor into why I would not pay to continue on this site. My new thoughts and opinions I use to start threads elsewhere. I still read here and comment only about things of interest not being discussed on other sites.

At Packerrats I find myself more interested in the ancillary boards right now, the Packer board not so much.

Everything started to go downhill after you removed your avatar

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/patlersignal.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

............ the show must go on and admission is always free.


I just got a PackerRats PayPal invoice for $1500 from Sharlene Fuckleby. Are you saying it might not be legit?

[Patler]

"THE NATURAL SELECTION OF BULLETIN BOARD POSTERS"
(A case study of Packerrates and the member "Patler" in the first person.)
by "Patler", 2011.

Note: This had been a lengthy response in which I addressed questions and issues raised. People have asked why I have backed away, so I answered in detail, which, of course, merely provoked others. So:

Upon further reflection following the insightful commentary from HarlanHuckleby below, I have edited my lengthy comments to something more acceptable.




Patler - What can I say, wow, Im blown away. I guess I will just be totally open with you and hope you can feel me on this.

Let me start by saying I didnt have anything to do with this thread or its topic. I have zero intentions of charging to visit. If you didnt notice I dont even run ads. I have never asked for one cent even if I needed it and guess what I dont need it now. Part of what RG says is true, I was not up to the task of running the forum. You know that but what you dont know why. PackerRats, Retail, "Joe" or I have done nothing that has damaged or cost you anything other than your time which is your choice. If I didnt care about this place Im sure I could have dumped it off somehow. I was just at a time in my life when a family member was ill and my mind and time was elsewhere.

OK, everything is wonderful.


Retailguy was my friend still and someone I trusted enough to ask such a favor. Yeah what I did which was deceptive but really was it that big of a crime? At no point was this forum in any danger of not existing. I figured why not let the place have a different driver for a while. I never really did anything as "Joe" outside of a few things RG wasnt familiar with. RG was the one that handled the persona. We would talk about stuff on the phone some forum some personal. He is a good friend and a good guy. I truly did him wrong with all this and for that Im sorry. He is really the only person I owe an apology to in regard to all that mess.

OK, everything is wonderful.


If any issue is with me for not providing you the examples I said regarding your post I apologize. It was not a big deal to me but maybe it was to you. I meant nothing by it and I had just noticed things like words or grammar I had rarely seen in your post. You have always been a revered poster so it is disappointing that you no longer feel this place is worthy of your time. I wish you would reconsider but either way the show must go on and admission is always free.

OK. Everything is wonderful.

CONCLUSION

Everything is wonderful

[Patler]

Everything started to go downhill after you removed your avatar

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/patlersignal.jpg

Better now? :lol:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Forget my suggestion on dues. What this forum really needs is an asylum. I'm serious. Just a place where people experiencing personal drama can go for some soothing music and games of checkers with the other residents. There should be no stigma associated with the asylum! Just a temporary rest area, we all may need it sometime. Any post over 20 sentences should be a red flag. Certainly Madtown, RetailJoe, and Patler from this thread deserve a vacation. I'll bet Patler is almost unbeatable at checkers. That Tarlam! thread was also a rich source of asylum candidates.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I just got a PackerRats PayPal invoice for $1500 from Sharlene Fuckleby. Are you saying it might not be legit?
Quit your bitchin. Do you know how much a hip replacement costs? Just give thanks that you are securely in the 1% and dig deep this holiday season.

[Patler]

Forget my suggestion on dues. What this forum really needs is an asylum. I'm serious. Just a place where people experiencing personal drama can go for some soothing music and games of checkers with the other residents. There should be no stigma associated with the asylum! Just a temporary rest area, we all may need it sometime. Any post over 20 sentences should be a red flag. Certainly Madtown, RetailJoe, and Patler from this thread deserve a vacation. I'll bet Patler is almost unbeatable at checkers. That Tarlam! thread was also a rich source of asylum candidates.

Weren't you completely gone from here for a few months yourself a while back?
I seem to recall a period of serenity.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I was off with your mother, who by the way wears army boots. You may have had serenity, but not me - what a screamer!
I'll bet she's loud during sex, too.

[Patler]

OK, everything is wonderful.

[mraynrand]

Better now? :lol:

Sweet! :smile:

[HowardRoark]

the Meadow....now the asylum? This place is sounding like The View.

Elizabeth looks like a screamer.

http://robotceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/elisabeth-hasselbeck-good-morning-america-254x400.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

"THE NATURAL SELECTION OF BULLETIN BOARD POSTERS"
(A case study of Packerrates and the member "Patler" in the first person.)
by "Patler", 2011.

Note: This had been a lengthy response in which I addressed questions and issues raised. People have asked why I have backed away, so I answered in detail, which, of course, merely provoked others. So:

Upon further reflection following the insightful commentary from HarlanHuckleby below, I have edited my lengthy comments to something more acceptable.




OK, everything is wonderful.



OK, everything is wonderful.



OK. Everything is wonderful.

CONCLUSION

Everything is wonderful



You've uncovered the secret to a long and happy marriage.

[Scott Campbell]

Rather than questioning Patler's right to feel the way he feels, I'd be interested in hearing if there is something we could change or improve to get him posting here again.

[Scott Campbell]

Quit your bitchin. Do you know how much a hip replacement costs? Just give thanks that you are securely in the 1% and dig deep this holiday season.


You're part of the 99%. Mostly by volume.

[MJZiggy]

Rather than questioning Patler's right to feel the way he feels, I'd be interested in hearing if there is something we could change or improve to get him posting here again.

And we have a winner!! Otherwise this thread just depresses me.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I sense Patler could use a blow job. It appears that Campbell and Ziggy are ready, willing and able to service. No need to push and shove, one at a time.

[MJZiggy]

Better now? :lol:Much.

[SkinBasket]

Rather than questioning Patler's right to feel the way he feels, I'd be interested in hearing if there is something we could change or improve to get him posting here again.

That course has been tried and invariably ends with lots of fuck yous and passive aggressive threats of (temporary) banning.

The only thing I'll add to this soup of sadness is in regards to the Joe Saga. It wasn't the "direction" that you were trying to take the site in that people disagreed with, retail and/or Madtown. Fuck, by then whoever was left didn't give a shit anymore. Those of us who liked what this place was when it started had accepted that it would never be that way again, and those who argued so hard for change and regulation still weren't pleased and left anyway. The problem was nothing ever happened. We were promised all this crap, and ended up with a broken homepage and a forum hidden from google for a year. And apparently lying about the ownership didn't sit well with most people. We were thrust into the hands of an anonymous landlord who couldn't trust us enough to divulge his identity, but who asked for trust and help in return. I know you think you made a mistake, and I agree. I just will never understand what about the whole thing ever seemed like a good idea. But I digress. Harlan's a moron.

[Scott Campbell]

That course has been tried and invariably ends with lots of fuck yous and passive aggressive threats of (temporary) banning.


You could be right, but it assumes that we know how Patler will respond. And he might chime in with all the same old criticisms and suggestions. But the reason I enjoy reading Patler so much is that his perspective is very unique. He often surprises. So I won't presume to know how he'd respond here.

[Scott Campbell]

I sense Patler could use a blow job. It appears that Campbell and Ziggy are ready, willing and able to service. No need to push and shove, one at a time.


If you had 1/2 Patler's wisdom, you could finally fulfill your lifelong ambition to lead a cult.

And if that makes me gay, then give me some ass chaps and put me in a parade.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If patler was possessed of great wisdom, he would have forgiven and forgotten the Joe shinnanigans. I agree it sucked, but life is too short to bear grudges over an incident so harmless, other than some sore feelings over getting fooled.

I do not begrudge you your admiration for patler. Perhaps I am jealous of his cult following. Wear those chaps proudly.

[SkinBasket]

You could be right, but it assumes that we know how Patler will respond. And he might chime in with all the same old criticisms and suggestions. But the reason I enjoy reading Patler so much is that his perspective is very unique. He often surprises. So I won't presume to know how he'd respond here.

If patler has the same old criticisms and suggestions maybe someone would be smart enough to listen one of these years. More than like, for anyone suggesting anything that doesn't include doing nothing, there will be platitudes, then excuses, and eventually invitations to sexually delight him/herself. Maybe some indignant claims of ingratitude tossed in too. I could be wrong. All I've got to go on is half a decade of precedent and empty promises. Promises I don't necessary hold against the makers. Just promises that should have never been made.

[Patler]

If patler was possessed of great wisdom, he would have forgiven and forgotten the Joe shinnanigans. I agree it sucked, but life is too short to bear grudges over an incident so harmless, other than some sore feelings over getting fooled.

I do not begrudge you your admiration for patler. Perhaps I am jealous of his cult following. Wear those chaps proudly.

Interesting and inaccurate comment as it pertains to me and the "Joe" saga.

Harlan was one who had the opportunity to read my original long response before I deleted it. In fact, he "responded" of sorts about its length. I acknowledge that he may not in fact have actually read it, perhaps because of its length. However, if he had read it he would realize that I explained I used the "Joe" saga as simple the banner for a number of things. It was not the sole issue, nor even the primary issue, simply the most visible issue of many that would be remembered by most.

I have my original response, because I do much by voice recognition and then transfer the transcript. Perhaps I will just repost it, since my feelings about the "Joe" issue are not remotely what HH suggests.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ok, sorry if i misunderstood youi patler, have been doing speed reading and slow thinking with threads like this. how about a general amnesty for all offenders and responders to offenders? how about a focus on how things are going now and in the future. Is anything f-d up now? Skinbasket?

[Patler]

If patler has the same old criticisms and suggestions maybe someone would be smart enough to listen one of these years. More than like, for anyone suggesting anything that doesn't include doing nothing, there will be platitudes, then excuses, and eventually invitations to sexually delight him/herself. Maybe some indignant claims of ingratitude tossed in too. I could be wrong. All I've got to go on is half a decade of precedent and empty promises. Promises I don't necessary hold against the makers. Just promises that should have never been made.

Actually, I did suggest doing nothing. A board such as this is whatever its prominent posters make it to be, and that changes over time. It has an ever-changing personality. There is nothing wrong with that. Members come and go. They post prolifically for a while, then back off. Sometimes they return, sometimes they don't. That's just the way it is.

Perhaps I should repost my original comments if people really want to discuss it.

[Patler]

(The following is as I originally posted it yesterday, before deleting it.)




"THE NATURAL SELECTION OF BULLETIN BOARD POSTERS"
(A case study of Packerrates and the member "Patler" in the first person.)
by "Patler", 2011.

What the heck, instead of a PM to Mad, I will just go ahead and throw this out there for general consumption, and then duck and cover when the reviews come in. :lol:
I will apologize in advance for the length, but people sometimes ask why posters leave, or cut back in their participation, so I will do this once and be done with it.




Patler - What can I say, wow, Im blown away. I guess I will just be totally open with you and hope you can feel me on this.

Let me start by saying I didnt have anything to do with this thread or its topic. I have zero intentions of charging to visit. If you didnt notice I dont even run ads. I have never asked for one cent even if I needed it and guess what I dont need it now. Part of what RG says is true, I was not up to the task of running the forum. You know that but what you dont know why. PackerRats, Retail, "Joe" or I have done nothing that has damaged or cost you anything other than your time which is your choice. If I didnt care about this place Im sure I could have dumped it off somehow. I was just at a time in my life when a family member was ill and my mind and time was elsewhere.

I never thought you had anything to do with this thread.
I didn't think you had an intention to charge.
Coming from the source it did, I knew the thread was bullshit to begin with.
I was going along with it until accused of being a skinflit, when it became time to defend my reasons.

I understand the what and why with "Joe", it has been stated many times. Doesn't make it right.
I recall the prevarications given in response to direct unequivocal questions in threads and PMs about it.
I value honesty and integrity above all else, so this site took a nosedive in my opinion because of it.
I agree it is our choice to be here (or not), which is why I defended my reasons against the "skinflint" allegation.

Now, Mad, don't take this part too personally, it's my attempt at objectivity:
While I appreciate your time, effort and expense in keeping this place going, it neither impresses me unduly nor indebts me to you or anyone else associated with it. You do it for what ever reasons you have. Many others do similar things. It's not some great humanitarian effort. It's one of those things we all do at our own expense in time and money both for our own enjoyment and for that of others who can partake of it. So, Thanks; but don't expect to be included in my will. :lol:

I am truly sorry for any personal issues you had at the time, but guess what? Most of us would have understood that and why you needed to get away. Many of us may have offered to help under the situation. You chose a different path. A less honest path. In itself, not a big deal, but a part of the whole which I will explain.


Retailguy was my friend still and someone I trusted enough to ask such a favor. Yeah what I did which was deceptive but really was it that big of a crime? At no point was this forum in any danger of not existing. I figured why not let the place have a different driver for a while. I never really did anything as "Joe" outside of a few things RG wasnt familiar with. RG was the one that handled the persona. We would talk about stuff on the phone some forum some personal. He is a good friend and a good guy. I truly did him wrong with all this and for that Im sorry. He is really the only person I owe an apology to in regard to all that mess.

Alone, no that was not a big deal; but it is a banner for what this site is about in a lot of ways. I don't know how else to say it. The "Joe" situation is not the sole cause of my discontent, it really is only a small part. However, it is so recognizable that it is (was) an easy and quick reference for me earlier in this thread. My issues are not solely with you or those you confide in. It's the fabric of the site itself, which I no longer fit in comfortably.



If any issue is with me for not providing you the examples I said regarding your post I apologize. It was not a big deal to me but maybe it was to you. I meant nothing by it and I had just noticed things like words or grammar I had rarely seen in your post. You have always been a revered poster so it is disappointing that you no longer feel this place is worthy of your time. I wish you would reconsider but either way the show must go on and admission is always free.

Good God, I had forgotten about that. No, this is not all about you. It is the overall attitude that pervades this place. An attitude that is not wrong, inappropriate or evil in any way, but an attitude that apparently I have had enough of, so I have backed away. It is nothing that I want or expect you or anyone else to do anything about. It is what it is. It's like my mother-in-law's turkey stuffing used to be. While I love stuffing of all types normally, hers I found very disagreeable. But she liked it, so I never expected her to change it; I just took very little of it. Same with this website. It is what the predominant posters want it to be, those who dislike it will simply take (and contribute) less. Those who like it will take (and contribute) more. It is neither right nor wrong, it just is.

Don't try to turn this into something it isn't by stating; "You have always been a revered poster so it is disappointing that you no longer feel this place is worthy of your time." Who said anything about worthiness? Each website has a character, a flavor. I simply am not well-suited here anymore. Not a big deal. No ones fault. As I wrote earlier, every site like this is what the predominant posters want it to be, and that is how it should be. It will change over time. It already has changed many times, and it will continue to do so.

So, I have found other sites that suit me better right now. Sites were my threads and comments are accepted for what they are, simple discussion about the Packers. Sites where I have not yet been:

- told that my children must hate me;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I am a racist;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I am a humorless individual;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I have a deep seated desire to trick and embarrass people;
- etc.; etc.; etc.

These were not the normal banter of discussion, these were serious evaluations of some of the self-proclaimed experts on this site. I finally realized that if that is the effect I have on this crowd, I needed to find another crowd, so I did.

Not a single soul on this site really knows me or what my life has stood for. Not a single soul on this site knows why some of those statements (and others) are particularly uncomfortable for me to read, even knowing they are untrue and recognizing the sources of the statements.

Just as a constant drip can overflow a tankcar, I, too, finally had enough. I doubt I will ever leave this site completely, not even the Packer board where the issues predominate; and maybe someday I will return to my former self and start threads and respond to others daily. Not to worry, however, I have been mostly gone from the Packer board for two months already, without most even being aware of it. That is the nature of the animal (a bulletin board), and it is why the animal continues to survive. (Natural selection, if you will.)


CONCLUSION
Members come and members go.
Patler is not the first to substantially curtail his participation.
If it happens, Patler will not be the first old hand to leave completely.
If it happens, Patler will not be the first who has left and returned, assuming both Patler and Packerrats survive. (If anyone lays odds, put your money on Packerrats; Patler is a bit long-in-the-tooth!)

[Scott Campbell]

If patler has the same old criticisms and suggestions maybe someone would be smart enough to listen one of these years. More than like, for anyone suggesting anything that doesn't include doing nothing, there will be platitudes, then excuses, and eventually invitations to sexually delight him/herself. Maybe some indignant claims of ingratitude tossed in too. I could be wrong. All I've got to go on is half a decade of precedent and empty promises. Promises I don't necessary hold against the makers. Just promises that should have never been made.



Valid stuff. And I agree.

I could probably get more worked up over it if he were getting paid, but it's harder for me to criticize him when he's volunteering. I feel like I'm supposed to be grateful for what we have.

[Scott Campbell]

Very thoughtful post Patler, and I think I get it. And I respect it.

[MadtownPacker]

If patler has the same old criticisms and suggestions maybe someone would be smart enough to listen one of these years. More than like, for anyone suggesting anything that doesn't include doing nothing, there will be platitudes, then excuses, and eventually invitations to sexually delight him/herself. Maybe some indignant claims of ingratitude tossed in too. I could be wrong. All I've got to go on is half a decade of precedent and empty promises. Promises I don't necessary hold against the makers. Just promises that should have never been made.
Maybe you can start by saying what you want to say and directly saying it.

But I will start by saying are the biggest whiner but the last to step up and help outside of criticism. But in fairness to you hardly anyone else outside of ziggy, Bretsky, Retailguy and a few others have ever been willing.

[MadtownPacker]

Valid stuff. And I agree.

I could probably get more worked up over it if he were getting paid, but it's harder for me to criticize him when he's volunteering. I feel like I'm supposed to be grateful for what we have.
See post above. BTW you don't owe anyone on here an ounce of gratitude.

[Scott Campbell]

See post above. BTW you don't owe anyone on here an ounce of gratitude.


I owe lots of people here my gratitude!


Harlan, thanks for playing the straight man and being such a good sport for the most part.
Woody, thanks for providing the endless hours of side splitting entertainment.
Skin, thanks for making me feel normal.
Mad, thanks for your investment of time and money in this site despite it's imperfections. And your imperfections.
etc., etc., etc..................

[SkinBasket]

Maybe you can start by saying what you want to say and directly saying it.

But I will start by saying are the biggest whiner but the last to step up and help outside of criticism. But in fairness to you hardly anyone else outside of ziggy, Bretsky, Retailguy and a few others have ever been willing.

i've tried that several times over the years, and was insulted, threatened, and made a target by you and others. A convenient scapegoat. I've shared with you publicly and privately a myriad of thoughts regarding the direction, tone, and mission of the site. At best, I was told i was right, then ignored. At worst, I've been consistently called a whiner who doesn't do anything but gripe about mismanagement. Again, you, and Joe or retail, or whatever, have continued to insult and belittle the very people you then demand respect and assistance from. Not the best policy, in my humble opinion, and the very reason I stopped contributing what little I did. I wasn't looking for special influence due to the time and efforts I gave to you and the site, but I also wasn't looking to be pissed on, mocked, and ignored.

Like I said, I don't really care anymore. You made it clear long ago that caring about the site and it's direction was a dead end. No big deal now. Pretty much everything that made me love this site is dead now and zombies have proven that reanimation never really works. There's a few folks here that I enjoy the company of, and they're what brings me back, unfortunately for the rest of you.

[MadtownPacker]

I owe lots of people here my gratitude!


Harlan, thanks for playing the straight man and being such a good sport for the most part.
Woody, thanks for providing the endless hours of side splitting entertainment.
Skin, thanks for making me feel normal.
Mad, thanks for your investment of time and money in this site despite it's imperfections. And your imperfections.
etc., etc., etc..................Like I said willing to lift a finger to point things out but not willing to lift a finger to help out. How about I give you and skinbasket admin rights for a month and see how you handle everything? Regardless of the "imperfections" you so readily acknowledge the place is still running and posters are still talking football and smack for 5 years. Maybe you are up to the challenge of improving that?

[MadtownPacker]

i've tried that several times over the years, and was insulted, threatened, and made a target by you and others. A convenient scapegoat. I've shared with you publicly and privately a myriad of thoughts regarding the direction, tone, and mission of the site. At best, I was told i was right, then ignored. At worst, I've been consistently called a whiner who doesn't do anything but gripe about mismanagement. Again, you, and Joe or retail, or whatever, have continued to insult and belittle the very people you then demand respect and assistance from. Not the best policy, in my humble opinion, and the very reason I stopped contributing what little I did. I wasn't looking for special influence due to the time and efforts I gave to you and the site, but I also wasn't looking to be pissed on, mocked, and ignored.

Like I said, I don't really care anymore. You made it clear long ago that caring about the site and it's direction was a dead end. No big deal now. Pretty much everything that made me love this site is dead now and zombies have proven that reanimation never really works. There's a few folks here that I enjoy the company of, and they're what brings me back, unfortunately for the rest of you.Sounds like you have your version and I have mine. I don't think we will come to terms so see my offer to scott on the post above.

[Freak Out]

Thanks for bringing Snoopy back Patler.....I don't hate you anymore. :)

[SkinBasket]

Actually, I did suggest doing nothing.

I have been fighting that fight since day one. All it got me was a crown of poop.

I agree with your assessment about posters coming and going completely. We were a glorious thing when we emerged on these shores. But how quickly we forgot our founding principles and started changing the site to fit the posters. And as the parts started falling off the ship, the captain kept squeezing harder and harder until we were left with this.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.


Madtown, honestly and in every effort to help, I offer you this, which I have offered several times before: this would be much easier if you stopped taking everything so personally. You are not the forum. Our troubles began, in my opinion, when the site became too much of you, or the other way around. It isn't healthy, and it makes it impossible for anyone to offer criticism without you getting your balls all tangled around tossing insults and curses. Everyone appreciates the work you've done. That shouldn't mean we can't disagree with your decisions regarding our interactions as a group without you going all berserko.

[SkinBasket]

Say what you're going to do and do what you say, and the site will be just fine.

[Scott Campbell]

How about I give you and skinbasket admin rights for a month and see how you handle everything?


Worst management decision EVER!


Can somebody be complimentary of you AND still acknowledge that you're not perfect?

Last time I tried to help I attempted to broker a cross promotion deal with another Packer website. You killed it out of hand. I'm not even saying that it was a great idea (which it might have been), I'm saying that your methodology of dismissal isn't going to nurture the kind of contributions you seek.

You're held to a higher standard around here because of your position. Maybe that's not fair, but it is what it is - a thankless job.


I suppose we could all sit around here and blow smoke up your ass to make you happy, but that won't make the site any better.


Maybe you won't believe it, but I'm hoping that you and this site thrive.

[Scott Campbell]

.....this would be much easier if you stopped taking everything so personally.


I see this same thing. It's not easy taking criticism. It's also not that pleasant to give it. Who enjoys telling somebody that their baby is ugly?

Mad typically reacts. Of course that's the natural thing to do. But it's not the best thing to do.

[MadtownPacker]

I have been fighting that fight since day one. All it got me was a crown of poop.

I agree with your assessment about posters coming and going completely. We were a glorious thing when we emerged on these shores. But how quickly we forgot our founding principles and started changing the site to fit the posters. And as the parts started falling off the ship, the captain kept squeezing harder and harder until we were left with this.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.


Madtown, honestly and in every effort to help, I offer you this, which I have offered several times before: this would be much easier if you stopped taking everything so personally. You are not the forum. Our troubles began, in my opinion, when the site became too much of you, or the other way around. It isn't healthy, and it makes it impossible for anyone to offer criticism without you getting your balls all tangled around tossing insults and curses. Everyone appreciates the work you've done. That shouldn't mean we can't disagree with your decisions regarding our interactions as a group without you going all berserko.You tell me not to take things personal and then you take your digs at me personally. Seems like your issue is with me but ok. I run the forum but I don't get how it is too much of me so please explain. I have alway been open to discussion but the way you present it ain't always too cool. I'm sure I'm to blame for several times but maybe you also should take some of the blame? If you want an example look at your first post on this thread. Is that really productive? Is this post of mine productive? I don't think so. So I am asking, what can I do to make things better?

[ThunderDan]

You tell me not to take things personal and then you take your digs at me personally. Seems like your issue is with me but ok. I run the forum but I don't get how it is too much of me so please explain. I have alway been open to discussion but the way you present it ain't always too cool. I'm sure I'm to blame for several times but maybe you also should take some of the blame? If you want an example look at your first post on this thread. Is that really productive? Is this post of mine productive? I don't think so. So I am asking, what can I do to make things better?

Is this a serious offer? I usually stay out of these threads because I wasn't one of the "founders." I just want to know before I put anything else into this site without getting whipsawed by Retailguy and Admin Joe.

[SkinBasket]

That course has been tried and invariably ends with lots of fuck yous and passive aggressive threats of (temporary) banning.

The only thing I'll add to this soup of sadness is in regards to the Joe Saga. It wasn't the "direction" that you were trying to take the site in that people disagreed with, retail and/or Madtown. Fuck, by then whoever was left didn't give a shit anymore. Those of us who liked what this place was when it started had accepted that it would never be that way again, and those who argued so hard for change and regulation still weren't pleased and left anyway. The problem was nothing ever happened. We were promised all this crap, and ended up with a broken homepage and a forum hidden from google for a year. And apparently lying about the ownership didn't sit well with most people. We were thrust into the hands of an anonymous landlord who couldn't trust us enough to divulge his identity, but who asked for trust and help in return. I know you think you made a mistake, and I agree. I just will never understand what about the whole thing ever seemed like a good idea. But I digress. Harlan's a moron.


You tell me not to take things personal and then you take your digs at me personally. Seems like your issue is with me but ok. I run the forum but I don't get how it is too much of me so please explain. I have alway been open to discussion but the way you present it ain't always too cool. I'm sure I'm to blame for several times but maybe you also should take some of the blame? If you want an example look at your first post on this thread. Is that really productive? Is this post of mine productive? I don't think so. So I am asking, what can I do to make things better?

I think my first post kind of proves my point in regards to your reply. How did I take my digs at you? Other than just recalling what happened here? I'm not getting it. I don't hate you. I hate what you did to the forum.

I'll think, again, on your question and get back to you, in case it matters this time.

[Scott Campbell]

Is this a serious offer? I usually stay out of these threads because I wasn't one of the "founders." I just want to know before I put anything else into this site without getting whipsawed by Retailguy and Admin Joe.


Your one of the core posters of the present. I wouldn't say that about me.

Many of the founders are irrelevant today - either gone, or like me they don't contribute much any more.

[MadtownPacker]

Is this a serious offer? I usually stay out of these threads because I wasn't one of the "founders." I just want to know before I put anything else into this site without getting whipsawed by Retailguy and Admin Joe.yes it is and is open to all members old and new.

FYI Retail will have nothing to do with the running the forum. If he is still willing his expertise would be great towards the operation of the site.

[MadtownPacker]

I think my first post kind of proves my point in regards to your reply. How did I take my digs at you? Other than just recalling what happened here? I'm not getting it. I don't hate you. I hate what you did to the forum.

I'll think, again, on your question and get back to you, in case it matters this time.

Ok lets skip all the he said it said BS. Tell what I did to the forum that you hate. Seriously.

[MadtownPacker]

Your one of the core posters of the present. I wouldn't say that about me.

Many of the founders are irrelevant today - either gone, or like me they don't contribute much any more.

This is false. For as many times that I would loved to have slit your throat I have always felt that you are part of this forum. I remember back at JSO we would both whup up on trolls. Somewhere we lost our way.

Those posters are still around because the activity log show several have logged on recently but they do not post. That is what we have to fix but I really dont know how.

[HowardRoark]

Very thoughtful post Patler, and I think I get it. And I respect it.

I think he is trying to trick us.

[Harlan Huckleby]

There's a few folks here that I enjoy the company of.

back atcha, skin

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he is trying to trick us.
my thoughts exactly :lol:
stats man speak with forked tongue

[Patler]

my thoughts exactly :lol:
stats man speak with forked tongue


What, you mean my tongue isn't normal?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyzputW8BH2ZVSZ56QlQz7orYQZq1_d 157u0r-kTNPCgIzJ28A

[Scott Campbell]

This is false. For as many times that I would loved to have slit your throat I have always felt that you are part of this forum. I remember back at JSO we would both whup up on trolls. Somewhere we lost our way.

Those posters are still around because the activity log show several have logged on recently but they do not post. That is what we have to fix but I really dont know how.


I think were probably in agreement. What I mean is that your current core is probably better represented by the posters producing content now, vs. those who were the big contributors back in the day.

[HowardRoark]

I will apologize in advance for the length....

If I had a nickel for every time I said that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

If I had a nickel for every time I said that.

Nice!

A fucked up thread. A Packer Rats tradition.

[SkinBasket]

Ok lets skip all the he said it said BS. Tell what I did to the forum that you hate. Seriously.

I find it hard to believe I'd have to rehash the dozen or so threads we've had on this issue, but I'll try to remember and summarize as best as possible...

I believe it started with attempting to crack down on the romper room. No this, no that, because some guy might be looking at the forum with his 5 year old in his lap and before you know it we went from a mutually agreed bar-type level of crudeness to, well, what wouldn't be offensive to a parent of a 5 year old. It didn't take long before the romper room shriveled up and was reduced to Partial talking about phones and ipads. I understand there were probably times I crossed the "line" in the romper room. But that line was always moving, so sue me. We went from having an off-topic free for all where people felt free to post almost suitable for anyone over 16, anything from crude jokes to worries about teen pregnancy, to an off-topic pre-school where suddenly an image of two girls kissing was cause for uproar - uproar from two people anyway, and the hint of an allusion to a gay joke was enough to have an image removed or a thread moved.

I think you let Partial destroy a lot of the trust people had in each other by not taking him by the balls much sooner than you did. Yeah, nutz posted a picture of his tits, but by then he had made his own bed and destroyed just about every relationship he had here - except for you and retail. Same goes for those Favre fuckers who turned the entire packer section into a homo fest for a season or two.

I think your threatening posters with violence and/or banning for daring to disagree with you was pathetic and destructive.

I think what retail and/or you did to the site during the Joe Era all but killed this place. For a year, people couldn't click on the image on the homepage that said "click here to go to forums" and we were hidden from google results. Not even people who knew we existed could find a way here, not to mention anyone who might have happened across us while looking for packer discussion.

It occurs to me that going through this point by point is going to be fruitless and argumentative, and like I said, the dead aren't the same even if you try to bring them back. So here's my suggestions. You've heard them before. Make it clear what you expect from each forum. This need not be lengthy or detailed. A one sentence explanation of decorum for each section would suffice. Explain that you will notify someone if they are being destructive to the forum, either through continued nasty personal attacks, spamming, carrying arguments across threads and forum areas, or sharing personal information. I think by now you can differentiate between angry banter and the kind of bullshit that drives people away without contributing to the site. We don't need Harlan demanding bannings for someone calling him a homo. Have a progressive punishment system, whatever it is, and make it clear, and then follow it.

We used to live under one rule, then you started making all kinds of exceptions and regulations that we had to guess at. Different moderators and yourself had different standards. If we aren't going to stick to there only being one rule, then you need to tell everyone what the rules actually are, so you aren't changing them for different people. I would prefer we only had the one rule, but that hasn't been the case for years. So make some decisions about where your lines are, and then make them known. Say what you're going to do, then do what you say. Like I said, doesn't have to be complicated, just clear and enforced. When I have more time after new years, I would be willing to offer a template if you would like.

There's another side to this I'll get to later, I have to eat. People can feel free to tell me I'm full of shit in the meantime.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Make it clear what you expect from each forum. This need not be lengthy or detailed. A one sentence explanation of decorum for each section would suffice.

Come on, where is the uncertainty?
I agree with you that there has been some ham-handed enforcement in the past. Water over the dam. Where is the beef now? Me thinks you just don't like the standards set.

Like Patler, I really don't like recieving personal attacks. (I am somewhat more tolerant of delivering them.) I don't see a lot of personal attacks at PR, outside of the FYI room, which can easily be avoided by gentle folk such as myself & patler.

[MadtownPacker]

I asked skin to tell me all that HH. The dust may have settled but the dirt is still on the floor. We are trying to clean it up.

[Freak Out]

A paid subscription? LOL. If Joe needs money to keep the site up and running just pass the old PayPal jar around and we'll pay for the hosting and software.

[MadtownPacker]

A paid subscription? LOL. If Joe needs money to keep the site up and running just pass the old PayPal jar around and we'll pay for the hosting and software.

Stupid frozen mfer did you even read the thread?

[Freak Out]

Fuck no...are you crazy?

[MJZiggy]

Fuck no...are you crazy?
Apparently...

[SkinBasket]

So, back to my autopsy...

I guess the other thing that really bothered me was the editing and moving of threads. The former more than the later, mostly since when we came here, we were told threads would never be edited, only moved if they were inappropriate. I understand having to remove something that makes you legally liable, but the rest was just subjective meddling. That's one aspect of where I feel you became too wrapped up with the identity of the forum. Seems there was never really a time when someone could criticize something about the forum, or even a decision that was made, without being lambasted, insulted, and whatnot. I understand it's probably hard to disengage yourself from something you've put such significant time and effort into, but I think it was detrimental to the forum on more than several occasions. Some of those were when you were under mental duress and you were venting, but you can do that as a poster, in the appropriate area of the forum, without being abusive as the administrator of the forum.

Finally, what Patler touched on about posters coming and going... I think changes were made in an effort to make some of the lowest common denominators happy and appeal to a broader audience. In doing so, the forum lost what made it unique. Namely that people could come here for pretty damn good football talk, but also to talk about any other event in the world. Going back to the last post for a moment, I think a couple posters destroyed the trust a lot of us had in each other, and not in an accidental manner. People stopped sharing. Off topic evaporated. The changes were too much for some, and not nearly enough for others. I feel it would have been better to stick to our origins and allow people to decide for themselves if they should be here or not.

Long story just a little longer, I know it's not easy to have one rule that says the only thing not permitted is sharing personal information, because people came along who were destructive to the forum who weren't necessarily violating that rule and though they have numbered under a handful over the years, they've cost us good posters. I would say simplify, communicate, and enforce. Let the rest sort itself out. It's the content, not the structure, that's going to make people comfortable posting here. Like I said, we won't ever relive our golden year or two, since everyone knows there's pus and decay right behind those seductive lips of the dead, but you wanted sharing, so I shared. I hope it helps you somehow.

[Zool]

I hope it helps you somehow.

I'd kiss you square on the mouth right now if I could.

But no gay stuff.

[Scott Campbell]

So, back to my autopsy..........

Finally, what Patler touched on about posters coming and going... I think changes were made in an effort to make some of the lowest common denominators happy and appeal to a broader audience. In doing so, the forum lost what made it unique.



I think you are spot on. You can't appeal to everybody, and you'll never make everyone happy. Pandering to the PM complainers can get you into a lot of trouble. You have to know your niche, and know your audience, and understand that it's not everybody. Give your core what it wants.

And the product is content.

[Scott Campbell]

So here's my suggestions. You've heard them before. Make it clear what you expect from each forum. This need not be lengthy or detailed. A one sentence explanation of decorum for each section would suffice.


Can you give me an example? For instance, what would you use as the explanation for the Romper Room?

[MadtownPacker]

How about we make specific rules for each section?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Seems there was never really a time when someone could criticize something about the forum, or even a decision that was made, without being lambasted, insulted, and whatnot. This is too rich. You are the least civil person in the FYI room, non-conservatives mostly shun it because it's impossible to have a discussion without being "lamabasted, insulted and whatnot."

You have the interest and passion to write paragraphs on on how the forum can be run better. (Although "how" is a little generous, its mostly a regurgitation of past slights.) Yet you won't take-up Madtown's offer to make you an administrator of the forum. Go for it, get directly involved. Hell, call Mad's bluff and completely take control for a year, if the greasy mexican dares. it would be fun, and i doubt membership would decline.

BTW, I don 't really hate you, secretly my loins burn for your football.

[Scott Campbell]

This is too rich. You are the least civil person in the FYI room........


........and that is why he is so beloved.

[SkinBasket]

Can you give me an example? For instance, what would you use as the explanation for the Romper Room?

Personally, I would tell the football forum to pretend they're in the stands at a game. The RR, you're at a bar with friends. Trash Can is like being high on meth in a full nude transgender strip club. FYI is like the debate team after a night of drinking.

Something like that.

[Scott Campbell]

So, I have found other sites that suit me better right now. Sites were my threads and comments are accepted for what they are, simple discussion about the Packers. Sites where I have not yet been:

- told that my children must hate me;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I am a racist;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I am a humorless individual;
- told that even though I do not recognize it in myself, I have a deep seated desire to trick and embarrass people;
- etc.; etc.; etc.

These were not the normal banter of discussion, these were serious evaluations of some of the self-proclaimed experts on this site. I finally realized that if that is the effect I have on this crowd, I needed to find another crowd, so I did.


Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I took to be the meat and potatoes of your post. And it would explain why you don't blame anyone. The rough and tumble culture here can be pretty uncomfortable at times.

But you know what's ironic? The way you handled yourself in these situations is a big part of the reason you're revered the way you are. I've never seen you compromise yourself. Ever. I've never seen anyone able to drag you into the gutter. And god knows they tried. It's usually when they're frustrated with that impenetrable logic, and are desperate to change the topic and get under your skin.

Regardless of what you decide in the end, I don't think anyone will think any less of you. It's too bad we can't find a way to make it work better.

[Scott Campbell]

Personally, I would tell the football forum to pretend they're in the stands at a game. The RR, you're at a bar with friends. Trash Can is like being high on meth in a full nude transgender strip club. FYI is like the debate team after a night of drinking.

Something like that.


Pretty damn good.

[Deputy Nutz]

Well I am glad Patler found and internet haven where he is not disrespected.

admit he makes some valid points, because at a time we were better than that, in some cases it is now no better than JSO

[ThunderDan]

yes it is and is open to all members old and new.

FYI Retail will have nothing to do with the running the forum. If he is still willing his expertise would be great towards the operation of the site.

MTP-

I really don't care if RG runs the forum or not. I just want to know that is all.

The real problem with this forum is when rules got "flexible". There need to be set in stone rules and everyone plays by those rules. The rules can be whatever you want but they have to be fixed. Then there is no debate and no subjective judgement. You either crossed the line or you didn't. Then when a poster has a complaint to air he doesn't have to "guess" what action will be taken (or that he is appealing to a mysterious Admin Joe who is the alter-ego that poster is arguing with).

Also, I would suggest posting as two different people MTP. Everyone "loves" the crotchity MTP banter. It's fun. But when you are "acting" in the admin roll I think you have to change so posters understand that the "playing" is now over and you really need to listen to what I am saying and follow it.

[Deputy Nutz]

But fuck, those other forums are boring.

[Freak Out]

No fucking rules!

http://radicalgraphics.org/albums/Anarchy/anarchy.sized.jpg

[MadtownPacker]

Personally, I would tell the football forum to pretend they're in the stands at a game. The RR, you're at a bar with friends. Trash Can is like being high on meth in a full nude transgender strip club. FYI is like the debate team after a night of drinking.

Something like that.Shit that ain't actually half bad. I think we can start with these.

[Scott Campbell]

But fuck, those other forums are boring.



Yup.

[SkinBasket]

You have the interest and passion to write paragraphs on on how the forum can be run better. (Although "how" is a little generous, its mostly a regurgitation of past slights.) Yet you won't take-up Madtown's offer to make you an administrator of the forum. Go for it, get directly involved. Hell, call Mad's bluff and completely take control for a year, if the greasy mexican dares. it would be fun, and i doubt membership would decline.

I don't think any one should be so "directly involved." That was the idea when we came here. The problems mostly stem from too much personal involvement on the administrative side, in my opinion.

And the "rules" should be as unobtrusive as possible... nothing more than a way to punish the worst case scenario essentially.

I cannot make you any smarter or less ignorant, so I'm sorry you feel being proven wrong repeatedly in FYI is a personal insult. That's the price of testing failed thought in a group setting.

[Scott Campbell]

MTP-

I really don't care if RG runs the forum or not. I just want to know that is all.

The real problem with this forum is when rules got "flexible". There need to be set in stone rules and everyone plays by those rules. The rules can be whatever you want but they have to be fixed. Then there is no debate and no subjective judgement. You either crossed the line or you didn't. Then when a poster has a complaint to air he doesn't have to "guess" what action will be taken (or that he is appealing to a mysterious Admin Joe who is the alter-ego that poster is arguing with).

Also, I would suggest posting as two different people MTP. Everyone "loves" the crotchity MTP banter. It's fun. But when you are "acting" in the admin roll I think you have to change so posters understand that the "playing" is now over and you really need to listen to what I am saying and follow it.


I'm mostly in agreement. I think the "rules" should be set in stone - unless they aren't working and need to be tweaked.

I also think enforcement will often be subjective. Guidelines should be simple to write, and simpler to understand. Therefore they can't cover every situation. That's where subjective judgement comes in.


"Rules" sounds kind of oppressive. I think I like the word "guidelines" better. It's friendlier, and less likely to turn off prospective new posters.


Re: But when you are "acting" in the admin roll I think you have to change so posters understand that the "playing" is now over and you really need to listen to what I am saying and follow it.


I might even take it one step further. Like it or not, he's the chocolaty brown face of the PackerRats franchise. He's supposed to be the Goodwill Ambassador here. You don't take your Goodwill Ambassador and also ask them play the role of Bad Cop. Just like you never ask your sales people or customer service people to play the Bad Cop role when working collections. It inhibits their ability to function at their primary job. You let them play the Good Cop role.

Mad is in a tough position. It's more fun to just be a poster here than it is to be responsible for the site. Part of that responsibility is having to behave. And he may not enjoy behaving.

[mraynrand]

Re: But when you are "acting" in the admin roll I think you have to change so posters understand that the "playing" is now over and you really need to listen to what I am saying and follow it.


I might even take it one step further. Like it or not, he's the chocolaty brown face of the PackerRats franchise. He's supposed to be the Goodwill Ambassador here. You don't take your Goodwill Ambassador and also ask them play the role of Bad Cop. Just like you never ask your sales people or customer service people to play the Bad Cop role when working collections. It inhibits their ability to function at their primary job. You let them play the Good Cop role.

Mad is in a tough position. It's more fun to just be a poster here than it is to be responsible for the site. Part of that responsibility is having to behave. And he may not enjoy behaving.

I've suggest to Mad that he use his Madtown account only for commenting on topics and have an administrator account to 'police' the site. People will know it's the same guy, but it will give a more formal, defined separation of Madtown the poster from Madtown the admin and psychologically people will differentiate the two. I think it will work.

[mraynrand]

Personally, I would tell the football forum to pretend they're in the stands at a game.

I would pour my beer over Retail's head.

[retailguy]

I've resisted weighing in on this thread. But this post needs some context from the other side. Skin, I don't disagree with what you're saying necessarily, however, the context is one sided and the memory of events is as well. Please take the context and ignore any of my feelings that come through.

I'm done running this place, and that's not going to change. Happy to continue being the "guy that takes the blame", but it's important to see what happened from that perspective too. (I think so anyhow).


So, back to my autopsy...

I guess the other thing that really bothered me was the editing and moving of threads. The former more than the later, mostly since when we came here, we were told threads would never be edited, only moved if they were inappropriate. I understand having to remove something that makes you legally liable, but the rest was just subjective meddling.

Can I own some of this? Sure. All of it? No. MTP probably edited less than a half dozen threads, ever. This criticism is about me. I did almost all of the editing.

In the end, I probably edited fewer than 40 threads. And the vast majority of those? Posts put there in "retailiation" from the previous edits.

You talk elsewhere about growth, and the need for it. But you fail to realize that most of our traffic comes during the weekday. When folks are at work. Whether they should be here then or not, THEY ARE.

Keeping the Romper Room PG, or at the very minimum keeping threads without NSFW photos shouldn't be an issue, IF growth is important, right? Isn't that why we have a forum for riskque shit?

Keeping off topic discussion out of the Packer room falls here as well, right? Isn't it tough to have really good football discussion, if posters keep derailing the topic?

As a poster, Skin (and others), you guys have to accept responsibility for trashing threads in retaliation of a disliked edit or thread movement. There was no talk at all in your post about trying to strip out off topic stuff from good discussion, or removing senseless criticism not related to the purpose of the thread. It's a two way street. I can own my side and the mistakes that were made, but will you guys own the other?




That's one aspect of where I feel you became too wrapped up with the identity of the forum. Seems there was never really a time when someone could criticize something about the forum, or even a decision that was made, without being lambasted, insulted, and whatnot. I understand it's probably hard to disengage yourself from something you've put such significant time and effort into, but I think it was detrimental to the forum on more than several occasions.

I'll leave this for MTP if he chooses.




Some of those were when you were under mental duress and you were venting, but you can do that as a poster, in the appropriate area of the forum, without being abusive as the administrator of the forum.

This part I have to address. This doesn't work. I was repeatedly criticized about my admin role while trying to post my football opinions. Expecting this to be a reality takes recognition from the posters involved. Expecting that behavior whilst a poster feels frustrated won't work (It hasn't worked so far). No one here seemingly will ever pass on the opportunity to get in a "dig".



Finally, what Patler touched on about posters coming and going... I think changes were made in an effort to make some of the lowest common denominators happy and appeal to a broader audience. In doing so, the forum lost what made it unique. Namely that people could come here for pretty damn good football talk, but also to talk about any other event in the world. Going back to the last post for a moment, I think a couple posters destroyed the trust a lot of us had in each other, and not in an accidental manner. People stopped sharing. Off topic evaporated. The changes were too much for some, and not nearly enough for others. I feel it would have been better to stick to our origins and allow people to decide for themselves if they should be here or not.

Yes, I did this. Again, see above regarding the Romper Room. It should either be safe for work, or NSFW. You can't say one thing and do another. If it's NSFW, then what's the difference between that and the GC?

I see your differentiation with regard to topical content, but what about video's and photos? Where do you draw the line there? And, how do you blend topical freedom with the ever present reality of working hour traffic? You tell me, I thought I knew, but clearly don't get the big picture.



Long story just a little longer, I know it's not easy to have one rule that says the only thing not permitted is sharing personal information, because people came along who were destructive to the forum who weren't necessarily violating that rule and though they have numbered under a handful over the years, they've cost us good posters. I would say simplify, communicate, and enforce. Let the rest sort itself out. It's the content, not the structure, that's going to make people comfortable posting here. Like I said, we won't ever relive our golden year or two, since everyone knows there's pus and decay right behind those seductive lips of the dead, but you wanted sharing, so I shared. I hope it helps you somehow.

I appreciate your willingness to share. And agree with the whole philosophy of community rule. But, what do you do when the community won't behave? What do you do with "retaliatory posting"? You've admitted that you've done it. Those times would not be in support of the "spirit" you espoused above (which I agree with, incidentally). So, how and where do you find a happy medium with conflicting situations?

[Patler]

This is the single most honest, objective and well-intentioned discussion we have had about the forum itself in a long time.

I have a lot of replies in mind to questions and comments that many of you have made to me (Skin, Scott, Nutz and others) the last couple days. Some have asked direct questions, which I will answer. I also have some thoughts on the other suggestions and comments made last night and today, but I really want to think out my answers.

I have a lot to do today and tonight. I hope we can keep this discussion going a while yet, and that my comments yet to be made might still receive a bit of an audience anyway.

[SkinBasket]

But, what do you do when the community won't behave?

Then that's your community. We were kind of built on not behaving, by normal standards anyway. Having one person, or even a few, at the top trying to mold a bunch of people into something they aren't isn't going to work.

I want growth, but growth as a result of who we are, not as a result of trying to be something we aren't. If that tops out at a low level, then so be it. Changing the forum toward "mainstream" doesn't seem to have worked so well.

I'll respond to some of your other questions later. Fucking christmas.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I cannot make you any smarter or less ignorant, so I'm sorry you feel being proven wrong repeatedly in FYI is a personal insult.
Huh. But you don't discuss topics. You always switch to attacking character. That's been pointed out repeatedly. You ruin any discussion that doesn't involve people who generally agree with you.

[MadtownPacker]

FYI I am reading everything just not replying just yet because this thread is flowing so well like Patler mentioned. Don't worry about this getting forgotten after the holidays.

[MadtownPacker]

Huh. But you don't discuss topics. You always switch to attacking character. That's been pointed out repeatedly. You ruin any discussion that doesn't involve people who generally agree with you.
He did start out that way but once he got it out his system he brought up the legit answers I'm looking for. Let ease up this time for the sake of this discussion.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He did start out that way but once he got it out his system he brought up the legit answers I'm looking for. Let ease up this time for the sake of this discussion.

I'm talking about Skinbasket's "debating" technique in the FYI room, you stupid chimp.

Actually, I don't care about skinbasket's lack of debating skills. so never mind.

[MadtownPacker]

I'm talking about Skinbasket's "debating" technique in the FYI room, you stupid chimp.

Actually, I don't care about skinbasket's lack of debating skills. so never mind.

Then you need to steer clear of this thread because it is not about FYI or skinbasket. Hook a brotha up please.

[mraynrand]

Yes, I did this. Again, see above regarding the Romper Room. It should either be safe for work, or NSFW. You can't say one thing and do another. If it's NSFW, then what's the difference between that and the GC?

I think there's a large category of stuff that is NSFW that can be in the Romper Room and Packer Forums, that doesn't require going to the GC.

NSFW:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUAgITZfq0

[SkinBasket]

Huh. But you don't discuss topics. You always switch to attacking character. That's been pointed out repeatedly.

Correction: You've made that accusation repeatedly but never backed it up. Now stop being so gay, you fugly brainless twit.

[MJZiggy]

The above can be labeled NSFW and posted without someone having something "objectionable" in front of them when they scroll down the thread. Many photos can't be simply labeled unless there is a guideline that states that anything NSFW should be linked to instead of embedded. I don't log in from work, so I don't really care what crops up in the RR, but that's one idea on how to handle it. We do have to keep in mind, though, that the GC was put here specifically to contain stuff that was NSFW.

[Zool]

Keeping off topic discussion out of the Packer room falls here as well, right? Isn't it tough to have really good football discussion, if posters keep derailing the topic?

As a poster, Skin (and others), you guys have to accept responsibility for trashing threads in retaliation of a disliked edit or thread movement. There was no talk at all in your post about trying to strip out off topic stuff from good discussion, or removing senseless criticism not related to the purpose of the thread. It's a two way street. I can own my side and the mistakes that were made, but will you guys own the other?

This was sort of the point of leaving JSO. We could say anything we wanted at any time here and for the most part, the mob kept it somewhat civil. When all the thread editing started happening, my interest in this forum waned to the point of me not even reading here for a week or 2 at a time.

Unfortunately I just can't quit you retards so I'm back again. The Admin Joe thing was a big gaffe and turned quite a few posters off to the site. It was a mistake that's in the past now but its a major point as to why this place just isn't what it used to be. If you have a truly open forum, you have to let the morons have their say as much as everyone else. Otherwise you're just hanging around talking to your friends without growth.

If there was a simple set of clear cut boundaries passed down by an administrator, and equal punishment delivered for infractions, this place could easily flourish IMO. You can't make it PG talk if it was started by a bunch of x-rated shit talkers unless you want it to fail or become just another board, then fail.

[SkinBasket]

The above can be labeled NSFW and posted without someone having something "objectionable" in front of them when they scroll down the thread. Many photos can't be simply labeled unless there is a guideline that states that anything NSFW should be linked to instead of embedded. I don't log in from work, so I don't really care what crops up in the RR, but that's one idea on how to handle it. We do have to keep in mind, though, that the GC was put here specifically to contain stuff that was NSFW.

The GC was made for the terrors and horrors of humanity, not for dick jokes and lesbians. People browsing from work need to police themselves, not have the forum curtailed for their benefit.

[SkinBasket]

Harlan used to be smarter... Then he became a huffer or a puffer, I'm not sure which. Maybe I'm just confusing it with fluffer.


Oh please.

I am tired of the huffing and puffing. If somebody threatens to leave the forum because they are upset by a poster, or a few threads, they should just be ignored.

[Harlan Huckleby]

not huffing. not puffing. you were complaining about the abuse you've suffered here, I pointed out you're a bit of a dick yourself.

[retailguy]

The GC was made for the terrors and horrors of humanity, not for dick jokes and lesbians. People browsing from work need to police themselves, not have the forum curtailed for their benefit.

I understand this perspective, and if NSFW is in the thread title, or the link is provided to a photo, that works just fine. But, suppose you are following a thread, and you click back in for an update, using the "latest post" button. Suddenly, you get a skinbasket original gay/lesbian photo, or a sampling of your crude photo humor, or one of easy cheesy's throwup photos on your screen, because it's the 1st new post. How exactly do you "police yourself" in that situation?

[retailguy]

This was sort of the point of leaving JSO. We could say anything we wanted at any time here and for the most part, the mob kept it somewhat civil. When all the thread editing started happening, my interest in this forum waned to the point of me not even reading here for a week or 2 at a time.



But, at the end of the day, does "for the most part" work? Did Paco Pete, Chevelle, Tyrone or (in the end) Partial keep it "civil" for the most part?

I think you bring up a great point, and your point illustrates the reasons that Skin's utopia didn't work. It worked for a while, but then "for the most part", became "for the occasional part", and was then followed by "for the slim and none part". I'm obviously biased, but, I think this was a bigger reason than the "thread editing" that you believe was the reason.



If there was a simple set of clear cut boundaries passed down by an administrator, and equal punishment delivered for infractions, this place could easily flourish IMO.

The group has to respect and accept the "equal punishment" for those infractions, but it doesn't and didn't. How many "Free Nutz" threads did we have exactly? (I don't just single out that one, but how many variants of that did we have?) 10? 15? When was any punishment ever accepted as reasonable?

[SkinBasket]

not huffing. not puffing. you were complaining about the abuse you've suffered here, I pointed out you're a bit of a dick yourself.

What abuse? I'm answering a question about the things I haven't agreed with. Stop being so gay.


I think you bring up a great point, and your point illustrates the reasons that Skin's utopia didn't work. It worked for a while, but then "for the most part", became "for the occasional part", and was then followed by "for the slim and none part". I'm obviously biased, but, I think this was a bigger reason than the "thread editing" that you believe was the reason.

It's not a utopia. It's a rule, or several, clearly communicated with enforcement of punishment, also clearly communicated. People will decide for themselves whether they want to post under those conditions and they will decide for themselves whether they choose to follow the rules. I would think it's been made fairly obvious by now that the good behavior of some cannot be achieved through regulation of all. And as nutz so eloquently pointed out, attempting to do so gives you one boring ass forum, of which the internet already has an abundance.

Re: policing yourself at work... I'm assuming people have the ability to not click on threads. Our forum isn't that compelling. If they're really that interested, they'll look at home.

[retailguy]

Re: policing yourself at work... I'm assuming people have the ability to not click on threads. Our forum isn't that compelling. If they're really that interested, they'll look at home.


I think you may be missing the point I'm making. It is a frequent occurence around here where the thread title is somewhat benign, yet the thread content drifts and gets "racy", sometimes quickly. I don't disagree with what you wrote above, if the thread title convey's NSFW, there is little issue or room to complain. Yet, in the situation I'm describing there is no/little warning, until "wham", you've got 65k colors of gay porn staring at you. Your only solution? To avoid the forum from work. Look at the number of posts after 5pm central or on a weekend vs. during the day in the middle of the week. Obviously folks are not on the forum (outside of gameday) during the evening and weekend... To grow, we've got to make things available when folks want to look at them, right? And I submit, could that situation be part of the reason that the Romper Room traffic and interest is down too?

Seems like a simple "rule" to me - The forum is either NSFW or it isn't. We have an NSFW forum. Do we really need two?

edit - Incidentally, I didn't mean anything by the "utopia" comment. I'm a little cynical there, due to my experiences, but I do agree that the best way to run a forum is to allow folks to police themselves. In my experience that didn't work out too well at all.

[MJZiggy]

What abuse? I'm answering a question about the things I haven't agreed with. Stop being so gay.



It's not a utopia. It's a rule, or several, clearly communicated with enforcement of punishment, also clearly communicated. People will decide for themselves whether they want to post under those conditions and they will decide for themselves whether they choose to follow the rules. I would think it's been made fairly obvious by now that the good behavior of some cannot be achieved through regulation of all. And as nutz so eloquently pointed out, attempting to do so gives you one boring ass forum, of which the internet already has an abundance.

Re: policing yourself at work... I'm assuming people have the ability to not click on threads. Our forum isn't that compelling. If they're really that interested, they'll look at home.

Why limit people? A lot of folks don't have time at home, but may want to peek in and chill for a few minutes during lunch hour. The vast majority of posters here (even the core posters) work.

[SkinBasket]

Why limit people? A lot of folks don't have time at home, but may want to peek in and chill for a few minutes during lunch hour. The vast majority of posters here (even the core posters) work.

Are you making a pro-censorship argument that starts with, "why limit people?"

I would answer, "because this place is a fucking wasteland."

[mraynrand]

T We do have to keep in mind, though, that the GC was put here specifically to contain stuff that was NSFW.

I thought it was specifically to protect against underagers getting exposed to a particular class of questionable stuff. NSFW is a far broader domain.

[MadtownPacker]

This is what has always made things difficult. I can see Skins perspective about not making the RR a G rated section because it is about adult conversation topics. But at the same time RG is right that people look at work. I would lean towards the one that brings more posts because it is the most common complaint I have heard for some time. I could see the adult discussions taking place in the RR but once post are linked to other content outside of PackerRats things change.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think accomodating work surfers is ridiculous. People can read the RR Room at home if need be, its not like they'll miss much.

For me, I kinda prefer the RR Room being PG rather than R rated. Its more interesting to try and be entertaining without the money shots. But I can see other perspective.

[Deputy Nutz]

I just want to be able to write dirty words when ever I want. I don't need to see dirty pictures outside of the garbage can. I have an imagination.

[SkinBasket]

I'm not as insensitive as I may seem towards those who view from work, but here's something to consider: We've had a puritan RR for something like 2 years now. How's that working out? No offense to those who contribute, but we have 2-4 threads a day that get a little activity and half of those are just lists of shit. Again, no offense. If you fuckers are looking at work, you sure as shit aren't saying much. What good is being able to look at the RR from work if there isn't anything to look at?

Retail, you talk about chancing on gay porn. That doesn't happen. Nor will it if expectations are set. There won't be an explosion of cocks in your face. At least not on the site anyway. Maybe we need a new forum called SFW, where people who might get fired can go look at a blank wall, because that's just about all we got as it is and we've been doing this your way for years.

[SkinBasket]

edit - Incidentally, I didn't mean anything by the "utopia" comment. I'm a little cynical there, due to my experiences, but I do agree that the best way to run a forum is to allow folks to police themselves. In my experience that didn't work out too well at all.

I wasn't offended. But my point was exactly the opposite. You guys tried your utopian idea of making the place as broadly appealing as possible to as many as possible and it's fallen flat on it's face as far as I can tell. It's shouldn't be a utopia. It should be, as I think Scott put it, a niche that draws people to it because it's different. We aren't smart enough to simply try to offer "brilliant" packer talk as our only draw, with off-topic forums as a afterthought. We've tried that for a few years and failed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We've had a puritan RR for something like 2 years now. How's that working out? . BS. You can do all the X-rated talk you want in the RR. I doubt dirty pictures will attract more viewers, but we'll have to hear from The People.


Retail, you talk about chancing on gay porn. That doesn't happen. Nor will it if expectations are set. There won't be an explosion of cocks in your face. At least not on the site anyway. ya, Retail doth protest too much. It's always the uptight fussbudget with the little boys' dirty underwear hidden in the bottom drawer. I don't mean to call Retail a pervert, that goes too far, but my gaydar is flashing like a disco ball.

[SkinBasket]

What do you really think is going to change even if the romper room is considered "R?" Other than removing ambiguous, subjective regulation?

[Scott Campbell]

This is what has always made things difficult. I can see Skins perspective about not making the RR a G rated section because it is about adult conversation topics. But at the same time RG is right that people look at work. I would lean towards the one that brings more posts because it is the most common complaint I have heard for some time. I could see the adult discussions taking place in the RR but once post are linked to other content outside of PackerRats things change.


So if I'm reading this situation correctly, the choices are:

A) Choosing a more liberal point along the posting spectrum (Skin's view).
B) Choosing a more conservative point along the posting spectrum (RG's view).
C) Choosing a different point all together along the posting spectrum.
D) Not making a decision, and perpetuating the ambiguity.


I believe D is the worst answer.

In your shoes I'm going to try and choose the point that spurs the most good content creation. A rule is no good to you if it kills off good content creation. Even if there are otherwise valid reasons for considering such a rule.

[MadtownPacker]

I just want to be able to write dirty words when ever I want. I don't need to see dirty pictures outside of the garbage can. I have an imagination.
This hasnt really changed. I dont recall threads getting GCed over words in a post. Always over a fight or some pic.

[MadtownPacker]

So if I'm reading this situation correctly, the choices are:

A) Choosing a more liberal point along the posting spectrum (Skin's view).
B) Choosing a more conservative point along the posting spectrum (RG's view).
C) Choosing a different point all together along the posting spectrum.
D) Not making a decision, and perpetuating the ambiguity.


I believe D is the worst answer.

In your shoes I'm going to try and choose the point that spurs the most good content creation. A rule is no good to you if it kills off good content creation. Even if there are otherwise valid reasons for considering such a rule.
Enough with the Yoda shit. Im here for answers not questions. :lol:

I really dont see why R conversation needs to be blocked from RR. Im on the fence about embedded images or videos because those show up as hits on peeps work accounts.

[Little Whiskey]

I just want to be able to write dirty words when ever I want. I don't need to see dirty pictures outside of the garbage can. I have an imagination.

This! +1

I doubt anyone at work or at home with a child nearby will be "offended/fired" if the word fuck shows up.......its when it accompanied by a picture that causes a problem.

RG, makes a great point. its not so much that a thread with the Title NSFW, but it when a picture of an ass is put into a Nascar thread that I'm following. That causes the problem.