Cap & Trade

[Harlan Huckleby]

The big money winner in today's game might be Finley. TT now has a greater incentive to use franchise tag on Flynn and trade him.

[MadtownPacker]

Flynn is gonna get paid regardless with his new team. But I agree, TT will try to sign Finley and franchise Flynn.

[Tony Oday]

Who wants a TE that drops the ball?

[Bretsky]

Who wants a franchise talent ? Green Bay, and that is why they will keep JF

[Little Whiskey]

that QB franchise number will be a ton higher than the TE number. it will be a tough gamble

[Harlan Huckleby]

that QB franchise number will be a ton higher than the TE number. it will be a tough gamble

good point

from game thread:

NE franchised Cassel for $14.5 million. Then traded him and Vrabel for a 2nd round pick (#34). Cassel then signed a 6 year contract for $63, with $28 million guaranteed. He nearly doubled his guarantee from the franchise number.

Probably takes a GM on the other team who knows the player well, as with KC and NE. Seattle comes to mind for Flynn.

[Brandon494]

You guys are crazy if you think TT is going to franchise Flynn.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Who wants a franchise talent ? Green Bay, and that is why they will keep JF


ya, one way or another.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You guys are crazy if you think TT is going to franchise Flynn.

read the whole thread, BP

[Brandon494]

Its too much of a risk, Matt Cassell played a whole season while Fylnn has only had a couple of great games. I might be wrong but I think hes a lot like Kevin Kolb aka a system QB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Its too much of a risk, Matt Cassell played a whole season while Fylnn has only had a couple of great games. I might be wrong but I think hes a lot like Kevin Kolb aka a system QB.
Presumably TT will talk to interested GMs before franchising. Maybe that is illegal, but I guess it happens anyway.

[gbgary]

Who wants a TE that drops the ball?


Who wants a franchise talent ? Green Bay, and that is why they will keep JF

don't fall into TO's trap.

[gbgary]

do backup qbs have a different franchise value than starters?

[Bretsky]

do backup qbs have a different franchise value than starters?


it's based on position. No, backups's would not have a different value than starters

[Brandon494]

do backup qbs have a different franchise value than starters?

No

[Harlan Huckleby]

do backup qbs have a different franchise value than starters?
that sounds like a stupid question that really isn't so stupid. I guess the answer is "no"

[Tarlam!]

Presumably TT will talk to interested GMs before franchising. Maybe that is illegal, but I guess it happens anyway.

From what I have observed, it is usually the player's agent that broker when there is a rule prohibiting direct communication between clubs.

[gbgary]

Its too much of a risk, Matt Cassell played a whole season while Fylnn has only had a couple of great games. I might be wrong but I think hes a lot like Kevin Kolb aka a system QB.

i don't like that term...system qb. all qbs are system qbs. they can run whatever system that's put in front of them...except tebow. on the other hand only a couple of guys could run tebow's system. so...nevermind. lol

[denverYooper]

Who wants a TE that drops the ball?

Obviously Rodgers just doesn't throw it to him correctly. Flynn's in and all of the sudden Fin's a win.

[Tarlam!]

that sounds like a stupid question that really isn't so stupid. I guess the answer is "no"

No such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer.

[gbgary]

it's based on position. No, backups's would not have a different value than starters


No

if that's the case there's no way they'd franchise him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

No such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer.

no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid questioner

[gbgary]

no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid questioner

right. hey!!

[jdrats]

I was pondering this question during the game as well. Flynn's stock certainly has risen again. I have to imagine that TT will be looking to trade Flynn before free agency begins, but would certainly consider using the tag to force a trade, provided that Finley is wrapped up.

There is really no way they can afford to franchise him and keep him on the roster as a backup, but for what it is worth, the tag contracts are going to be cheaper this year because they are calculated differently under the new collective bargaining agreement. The QB tag will be around $14.5 million this year (versus aqbout $16 million for 2011). Regardless, if the Packers franchise him it will be because they have a trade of some kind in the works.

Perhaps more important than the draft pick, one of the biggest bonuses to finding a way to trade Flynn would be to keep him out of the division and possibly away from other NFC teams that seem to be just a player or two from being in a position to contend for a title.

[Patler]

You guys are crazy if you think TT is going to franchise Flynn.

Geez, relax. Is it likely they will franchise him? No, not at all.
Is it inconceivable? No, just very, very unlikely.

I posted the info about Cassel in a different thread when people were suggesting the franchise amount is too high, and/or that Flynn would sign the tender, resist any trade he didn't like, etc. There are things to be learned from the Cassel scenario:

It appears that the franchise for Flynn would not be significantly more than NE gave Cassel.
Cassel vastly improved his guaranteed money by renegotiating immediately. It was a big "win" for Cassel.
The principals in KC and NE knew each other well, which I believe is why it worked as it did.

I suspect the basics were worked out between KC and NE before NE gave Cassel the franchise tender. Cassel may have even approved the team if not the contract details before he signed the tender. That's why I said it probably takes a team that knows Flynn and has a relationship with TT. Seattle is the one that comes to mind that meets the criteria.

Do I think it will happen? - No.
Would I be shocked if it did? - Also No.

TT won't give him a Franchise tender without having a deal to trade him all but completed.

[red]

you have to do something to prevent him from just walking away

i think he's more valuable then kolb was, he's definitely showed more promise then kolb ever did in just 2 starts

the franchise number is really no big deal, his next team is going to pay him way more then thar anyways.

tag him, then see if seattle will give up any more than just their 1st round pick for him

[Lurker64]

you have to do something to prevent him from just walking away

Worst case scenario, and you let Flynn walk and you receive a 3rd round compensatory pick in the 2013 draft. That's not peanuts.

[bobblehead]

Its too much of a risk, Matt Cassell played a whole season while Fylnn has only had a couple of great games. I might be wrong but I think hes a lot like Kevin Kolb aka a system QB.

Ok, I stay out of the slam brando fun most of the time because you usually make decent points even if I disagree with them and you overstate them. BUT....How many "system QB's" have games like flynn had today and also the one he had against NE last season?

Drew Brees must be a system QB as well. Criticize his arm strength and its valid, but his results speak to his total package....kid has talent.

[Lurker64]

How many "system QB's" have games like flynn had today and also the one he had against NE last season?

Are Joe Namath and Y.A. Tittle "system QBs"? Since those are the only guys in NFL history to throw for 480+ and 6+ TDs, other than Matt Flynn that is.

[Patler]

you have to do something to prevent him from just walking away

i think he's more valuable then kolb was, he's definitely showed more promise then kolb ever did in just 2 starts

the franchise number is really no big deal, his next team is going to pay him way more then thar anyways.

tag him, then see if seattle will give up any more than just their 1st round pick for him

NE had to throw Vrabel in with Cassel to get a 2nd round pick in the trade. I don't think Flynn will garner more than that on his own.

Letting him "walk" is not for nothing. They would get compensation, likely high compensation because his contract will be big.

[bobblehead]

People who think TT would never trade flynn w/o a deal in place answer me this. What happens to the packers 2012 regular season if Rodgers gets hurt? Flynn may be worth keeping for another year even if we couldn't move him (assuming it doesn't cost us being able to resign someone TT values).

[Little Whiskey]

People who think TT would never trade flynn w/o a deal in place answer me this. What happens to the packers 2012 regular season if Rodgers gets hurt? Flynn may be worth keeping for another year even if we couldn't move him (assuming it doesn't cost us being able to resign someone TT values).

Bobble, no way TT keeps flynn for 15mil. no way flynn signs a deal for less than that. he ended the season with a huge game. some gm will be willing to risk a few bucks to see what he can do as a starter.

[red]

NE had to throw Vrabel in with Cassel to get a 2nd round pick in the trade. I don't think Flynn will garner more than that on his own.

Letting him "walk" is not for nothing. They would get compensation, likely high compensation because his contract will be big.

wasn't there a lot of talk at the time that BB gave whats his face a massive discount?

no one at the time could figure out how NE could trade him for so littel

or am i thinking of something else?

the eagles got a 2nd and a former first round pick with a lot of potential for kolb. and IMO, kolb never showed the talent that flynn has

and didn't the seahawks just trade a 2nd last year for some backup chump who has never played?

[pbmax]

The other thing that argues against a Cassell type trade is that all the parties involved knew each other and could agree beforehand to the specifics. Pioli knew Belicheck and Cassell. He also was about to hire (or had hired) a Belicheck disciple in Haley to run the offense. Haley would have gotten the stamp of approval from Belicheck under an questioning by Cassell. That is a lot of dominoes to have lined up.

In Flynn's case, there are no current teams running McCarthy's offense, unless someone was to hire Philbin or Clements away. And then you need to line up the GMs. In today's NFL Thompson knows and would probably implicitly trust Reinfeldt (Titans) and John Schneider and Scot McCloughan (Seattle) off the top of my head. McKenzie could get the GM gig in Oakland, but all indications are that the new GM will be asked to keep Hue Jackson and perform a miracle with no high draft picks.

Seattle would seem a possibility as they don't have someone to young to groom and they might not get either top QB pick. Pete is flaky enough that he would go back on his word to Tavaris and Bevell runs a West Coast offense.

But more importantly, the team to who Thompson wants to trade him to must be willing to match Flynn's asking price. He is driving the bus. If for instance, the Bears or Vikings were to offer a boatload of money (I know, unlikely, but still) Thompson would prefer not to trade Flynn to them, but Flynn might want that deal. It will take a serious degree of luck to line up another team that will pony up the dollars AND that Thompson wants to deal with (and will offer something better than a 3rd round pick).

[pbmax]

wasn't there a lot of talk at the time that BB gave whats his face a massive discount?

no one at the time could figure out how NE could trade him for so littel

or am i thinking of something else?

the eagles got a 2nd and a former first round pick with a lot of potential for kolb. and IMO, kolb never showed the talent that flynn has

and didn't the seahawks just trade a 2nd last year for some backup chump who has never played?

Kolb was not a Free Agent.

Flynn and Cassell were like trying to trade a UDFA at the end of camp for a pick. A team could surrender the pick and be assured of getting that player, or they could wait for waivers (or the FA period) and take their shot at a couple of different options.

[Lurker64]

the eagles got a 2nd and a former first round pick with a lot of potential for kolb. and IMO, kolb never showed the talent that flynn has

The big difference between trading for Kolb and trading for Flynn is that Kolb was already under contract at a reasonable rate, whereas if Matt Flynn is traded his contract status would be at the franchise tag level. It's much easier to work out an extension for Kolb in that way (though the one Arizona gave Kolb was ridiculous.)

[pbmax]

People who think TT would never trade flynn w/o a deal in place answer me this. What happens to the packers 2012 regular season if Rodgers gets hurt? Flynn may be worth keeping for another year even if we couldn't move him (assuming it doesn't cost us being able to resign someone TT values).

Well, it will cost you resigning someone, sometime. Maybe Finley or Wells. Maybe a soon to be free agent next year. But if you are Flynn, do you want to stay?

And do the Packers want a $15 mil backup price tag? When Thompson kept cap space open to accept Favre back to camp, he had his backup on a relatively cheap end of first round rookie deal. Now Rodgers is making serious QB dough plus a $15 mil/year backup. Way too much money to commit.

[red]

The big difference between trading for Kolb and trading for Flynn is that Kolb was already under contract at a reasonable rate, whereas if Matt Flynn is traded his contract status would be at the franchise tag level. It's much easier to work out an extension for Kolb in that way (though the one Arizona gave Kolb was ridiculous.)

yes but part of that trade was the understanding that kolb would get a new, huge, deal

he got a 5 year, 64 million dollar deal with 21 million up front

just because you tag flynn, that doesn't mean that the next team is on the hook for that whole 15 million or whatever it is. only the team that tags him is the one that is on the line for that whole amount

a new team would more then likely turn that 15 million and then some into a signing bonus for the new contract.

if i'm not mistaken. the packers could tag him at 20 million or whatever, then trade him, and the new team could sign him for like 3 years with 10 million overall. if i'm not mistaken that franchine number goes completely away once he's traded and signs a new deal

[Patler]

I think today showed that keeping Flynn this year was a wise move, even if it means getting only a 3rd or 4th round compensatory pick when he leaves. The Packers were/are well positioned for a SB run, and can win a game against a playoff team even if Rodgers goes down.

But, hang on to him next year for $15 million? I can see that happening in only once scenario, if Rodgers were to get hurt in the playoffs and be questionable for the start of next year. Then, the one year investment might be worth it.

[ND72]

#1, once Flynn would be traded the team can resign him at their contract level, so he wouldn't be at $15mil.
#2, he would structure a new contract with that team before that team would agree to a trade.

[ThunderDan]

Its too much of a risk, Matt Cassell played a whole season while Fylnn has only had a couple of great games. I might be wrong but I think hes a lot like Kevin Kolb aka a system QB.

And what did the Eagles trade Kolb for?

[red]

And what did the Eagles trade Kolb for?

a shitload

[Lurker64]

#1, once Flynn would be traded the team can resign him at their contract level, so he wouldn't be at $15mil.
#2, he would structure a new contract with that team before that team would agree to a trade.

Whatever contract Flynn signs with the team that acquires him, can't make that $15m guaranteed disappear, it has to actually be paid. The most you can do is restructure it.

[Lurker64]

a shitload

They got a 2nd round draft pick and the rights to Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. Cromartie is now a free agent (or will be in March) so it's not that big a haul. Since, between "a second round pick" and "a backup corner in a wasted season", the second round pick is the prize.

[pbmax]

yes but part of that trade was the understanding that kolb would get a new, huge, deal

he got a 5 year, 64 million dollar deal with 21 million up front

just because you tag flynn, that doesn't mean that the next team is on the hook for that whole 15 million or whatever it is. only the team that tags him is the one that is on the line for that whole amount

a new team would more then likely turn that 15 million and then some into a signing bonus for the new contract.

if i'm not mistaken. the packers could tag him at 20 million or whatever, then trade him, and the new team could sign him for like 3 years with 10 million overall. if i'm not mistaken that franchine number goes completely away once he's traded and signs a new deal

True, but as Kolb is under contract and must report, the team that acquired his rights has more leverage than trying to get a current FA to agree to the outlines of a deal. The most Kolb could do is refuse to negotiate, but he would still need to play the balance of the deal. Flynn's entire leverage rests on his need to test the market. So any deal for Flynn is going to be measured against the entire market, not just the teams willing to meet the original team's trade price for Kolb.

And in a trade scenario, Thompson might rule out some teams right from the beginning.

[ThunderDan]

It's all about perceived value. Look at the Seachickens and Whitehurst.

[Brandon494]

Are Joe Namath and Y.A. Tittle "system QBs"? Since those are the only guys in NFL history to throw for 480+ and 6+ TDs, other than Matt Flynn that is.

Listen Flynn has talent and had a hell of a game but one game doesn't make a player. I've seen comments about us getting a 1st round pick and Flynn being a top 8 QB in the league after todays game. I'm not going to overreact after one game, the guy had a career QB rating of 68 with more INTs then TDs before todays game.

[ThunderDan]

Listen Flynn has talent and had a hell of a game but one game doesn't make a player. I've seen comments about us getting a 1st round pick and Flynn being a top 8 QB in the league after todays game. I'm not going to overreact after one game, the guy had a career QB rating of 68 with more INTs then TDs before todays game.

I agree with the thought. The reality is you have a QB who has started 2 games and played well in both. Some GM will think, wow this is the guy. I don't understand it but it happens all of the time. Kolb, Whitehurst are prime examples.

[ND72]

Whatever contract Flynn signs with the team that acquires him, can't make that $15m guaranteed disappear, it has to actually be paid. The most you can do is restructure it.

Yup, they make it $15 mil guaranteed money over 5 years, not too difficult to do, as it has happened many times.

[Tarlam!]

People forget Flynn won a national title in college! And anyone able to throw 6 TD's in an NFL game against that front seven, being protected by a make shift O-lone has to be pretty decent. If that were Rodgers in his second start getting beaten up so badly back there today and throwing 6 for 1-480 yards, we'd all be pointing that out and singing Kum Ba Ya.

He nealry beat the Brady Bunch at their place in his first start. He's got upside, that much is obvious to even my untrained eye.

[pbmax]

Yup, they make it $15 mil guaranteed money over 5 years, not too difficult to do, as it has happened many times.

At QB though? It happened to Cassell. Kolb was under contract and not subject to the tags. Schaub was traded before his fourth year and I suspect as a 3rd round pick he had one more year on his rookie deal. Nobody else comes to mind immediately.

[Patler]

Yup, they make it $15 mil guaranteed money over 5 years, not too difficult to do, as it has happened many times.

Why would Flynn sign a 5 year contract with only $15 million guaranteed, when he would already have a guaranteed $15 million contract for just one year? It wouldn't make much sense.

To make it acceptable to both the team and the player it has to get the per year cost down for the team and increase the guarantee for the player. The team will have to guarantee more than just the value of the franchise contract, and Flynn will have to commit more than just one season. Cassel went from 1 year for $14.5 million guaranteed to 6 years for $63 Million with $28 million guaranteed.

[retailguy]

Listen Flynn has talent and had a hell of a game but one game doesn't make a player. I've seen comments about us getting a 1st round pick and Flynn being a top 8 QB in the league after todays game. I'm not going to overreact after one game, the guy had a career QB rating of 68 with more INTs then TDs before todays game.


C'mon Brandon. The "top 8" QB comment was in jest related to the White Partial. You know that. Most rational people aren't over reacting to one game either. But in the clutch, the guys played two really good games. I'm with the mob in thinking IF we could get something for him we should. I don't think it's more complicated than that. Chill, and by the way, take the two middle fingers down. You're better than that, I think.

[Tarlam!]

Chill, and by the way, take the two middle fingers down. You're better than that, I think.

Must.......resist.....urge....to........ :lol:

[red]

People forget Flynn won a national title in college! And anyone able to throw 6 TD's in an NFL game against that front seven, being protected by a make shift O-lone has to be pretty decent. If that were Rodgers in his second start getting beaten up so badly back there today and throwing 6 for 1-480 yards, we'd all be pointing that out and singing Kum Ba Ya.

He nealry beat the Brady Bunch at their place in his first start. He's got upside, that much is obvious to even my untrained eye.

team record in yards and TD's, against a playoff team going all out, with a pretty damn good defense, and in less then ideal conditions in january in green bay. i don't know if it showed on the tv, but just north of green bay here, it was windy as hell

nothing about that screams fluke to me

[red]

Why would Flynn sign a 5 year contract with only $15 million guaranteed, when he would already have a guaranteed $15 million contract for just one year? It wouldn't make much sense.

To make it acceptable to both the team and the player it has to get the per year cost down for the team and increase the guarantee for the player. The team will have to guarantee more than just the value of the franchise contract, and Flynn will have to commit more than just one season. Cassel went from 1 year for $14.5 million guaranteed to 6 years for $63 Million with $28 million guaranteed.

yes, but flynns new team is gonna pay him way more then 15 million no matter if he has the tag or not. so that 15 million franchise tag is really a moot point IMO. just a way for us to control where he goes and get some picks for him

[King Friday]

Listen Flynn has talent and had a hell of a game but one game doesn't make a player. I've seen comments about us getting a 1st round pick and Flynn being a top 8 QB in the league after todays game. I'm not going to overreact after one game, the guy had a career QB rating of 68 with more INTs then TDs before todays game.

In his last two real starts, he has been extremely impressive.

You can't base a backup on his QB rating. The bulk of his duty is mop up at the end of games where they run-run-pass on 3rd and 8. Tough to build a QB rating under those conditions. He looked great in a start last season on the road in New England. He looked strong this preseason. He looked great again today against a motivated Lions team. Speaks to McCarthy's ability to coach QBs.

I said Flynn was top 8, although that was mostly tongue in cheek. However, he clearly is a starting caliber QB...and there are probably only about 20-25 of those in the NFL right now. So it ain't that far from the truth. Yeah, he won't look as good wherever he goes with less talent around him and a different coaching staff...but he's a better choice to lead your team right now than any QB in the draft outside of perhaps Luck.

[mmmdk]

Franchise Matt Flynn or he may become a Vikings QB...:shock:

[Pugger]

Franchise Matt Flynn or he may become a Vikings QB...:shock:

Hopefully he's smarter than that! ;-) Do you think MN would give up on Ponder?

[mmmdk]

Hopefully he's smarter than that! ;-) Do you think MN would give up on Ponder?

One has to...Ponder!

[Deputy Nutz]

The market will be high on Flynn. Not just because he has been really good in his two starts in the NFL but because he is a Mike McCarthy trained QB and that is huge. Mike McCarthy has created a system for his QB to succeed, and has coached his QBs to read defenses, minimize wasted motion, and developed tangible skills to become pro bowl QBs. I think we can all agree that Flynn isn't more talented than Rodgers, but McCarthy has developed a system that isn't based on Brett Favre like talent. Several teams would love to get their hands on a Mcarthy QB. My guess is teams like Washington, Seattle, Denver, New York Jets, and Cleveland would all show interest to signing Flynn to a long term deal. The Packers are completely out of the running unless something drastic happens. Minnesota doesn't have a lot of cash, and to give up on Ponder this early would just be another crushing mistake for the Vikings.

My quess is that TT doesn't use the Franchise tag on a backup QB. If the transition tag is still available the Packers could use that, but I don't know if that has been done away with.

[Tarlam!]

Franchise Matt Flynn or he may become a Vikings QB...:shock:

Na he wouldn't do that. Flynn is not wanting to stick it to his old club, in fact, when he plays his next game at Lambeau, I expect he'll get a standing ovation or loud cheers at the very least. Unless he replaces Romo! Hahaha.

He will show off many of the skills of the trade he picked up during his 4 years there. I liked having him on the roster, but I wish him well in his new gig. Unless he replaces Romo.

[mmmdk]

Na he wouldn't do that. Flynn is not wanting to stick it to his old club, in fact, when he plays his next game at Lambeau, I expect he'll get a standing ovation or loud cheers at the very least. Unless he replaces Romo! Hahaha.

He will show off many of the skills of the trade he picked up during his 4 years there. I liked having him on the roster, but I wish him well in his new gig. Unless he replaces Romo.

Just my innermost fear with the purple; it's probably much more realistic with Redskins but I still say franchise Flynn 'cos Skins would pay a sh!tload.

[pbmax]

The only thing that will hurt Flynn is limited amount of games. Schaub and Cassell played the better part of entire seasons. Kolb had closer to 10 starts. But it only takes one to set a high market.

I would add Miami to the mix, though there is no coach/GM connection to help a trade scenario.

[Deputy Nutz]

If Philbin goes to the Dolphins it might be a no brainer where Flynn goes.

[pbmax]

If Philbin goes to the Dolphins it might be a no brainer where Flynn goes.

That owner is nutty enough to do something drastic. But I think Ireland will survive as GM. Heck, Sparano nearly turned it around this year.

[ND72]

I would say Miami, Washington, Seattle, Jaguars, Jets, Browns, Denver would be his big list of suitors.

[Tarlam!]

Good post Nutz.

For Sale

NFL QB,
Model 06/1985
Type M3-Trained
6'2", 225 pounds
Four years as a back-up on World Championship winning team,
Two starts, 1-1 Record,
BCS Champion,
No locker room or public transgressions
Seeks a friendly new home.
Price upon enquiry

[billy_oliver880]

Anyone else hearing that people are calling rodgers a system qb and that flynn is better....? I mean I like what flynn has done but are you kidding me. Of course these were the rodgers nay sayers since that other guy left.

[ND72]

So I was doing some reading, the franchise tag is not guaranteed unless the player does not sign a different contract. According to nfl rules, franchise tags do not guarantee the money to that player if contract is the settled or player is traded an that contract is restuctured. Just because he would sign a $15mil franchise tag does not mean his restructured contract has to have anything to do with that franchised tag. It is considered a franchise tender much like all other tenders teams can use, and then sign to different contracts.

[ND72]

Anyone else hearing that people are calling rodgers a system qb and that flynn is better....? I mean I like what flynn has done but are you kidding me. Of course these were the rodgers nay sayers since that other guy left.

This system bullshit pisses me off. That means Bree's and Brady are system guys too then.

[billy_oliver880]

This system bullshit pisses me off. That means Bree's and Brady are system guys too then.

Its a testament to the coaching staff. They really get these guys ready to go. I think that flynn has the potential to be a quality starter in the nfl but give me a break. Plus these guys have some talent.

[pbmax]

Anyone else hearing that people are calling rodgers a system qb and that flynn is better....? I mean I like what flynn has done but are you kidding me. Of course these were the rodgers nay sayers since that other guy left.

Skip Bayless is making this argument and all of Packer Twitter world is now fighting an imaginary battle over it. What Skip does not care to mention, that I expect most NFL writers to understand, is that the Packers trailed nearly the entire game (even in the vaunted 4th quarter) and that puts a carrot in front of the passing game donkey.

But Skip is into fake confrontation, so to acknowledge the subtlety, for him, is counter-productive.

[pbmax]

This system bullshit pisses me off. That means Bree's and Brady are system guys too then.

Brady especially since Cassell pulled it off.

[mmmdk]

There were 11 lead changes between Packers & Lions; Packers had the lead the most times and hence won the game!

[billy_oliver880]

Skip Bayless is making this argument and all of Packer Twitter world is now fighting an imaginary battle over it. What Skip does not care to mention, that I expect most NFL writers to understand, is that the Packers trailed nearly the entire game (even in the vaunted 4th quarter) and that puts a carrot in front of the passing game donkey.

But Skip is into fake confrontation, so to acknowledge the subtlety, for him, is counter-productive.


Bayless is a moron and thats why I can't watch espn anymore. Very little substance to any argument. Its like losing one game to the chiefs and everyone is suddenly writing off a team thats lost once all year. People must forget how Flynn looked against the lions last year.

[Tarlam!]

Anyone else hearing that people are calling rodgers a system qb and that flynn is better....? I mean I like what flynn has done but are you kidding me. Of course these were the rodgers nay sayers since that other guy left.


This system bullshit pisses me off. That means Bree's and Brady are system guys too then.

I had to go Wiki the term system QB and they provide a good description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_quarterback

What is interesting is that our very own Graham Harrell is listed as such!!

[ND72]

I had to go Wiki the term system QB and they provide a good description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_quarterback

What is interesting is that our very own Graham Harrell is listed as such!!

My favorite Colt Brennan! Loved that guy in college.

[pbmax]

I had to go Wiki the term system QB and they provide a good description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_quarterback

What is interesting is that our very own Graham Harrell is listed as such!!

There were those who doubted Rodgers coming out of college and rated him a system QB. Specifically, a Jeff Tedford system QB like Trent Dilfer, David Carr, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington and Kyle Boller.

[Tarlam!]

There were those who doubted Rodgers coming out of college and rated him a system QB. Specifically, a Jeff Tedford system QB like Trent Dilfer, David Carr, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington and Kyle Boller.

Well, if he's not listed as such on Wiki, he can't be one!

[pbmax]

Well, if he's not listed as such on Wiki, he can't be one!

He's definitely blown the curve.

[swede]

I had to go Wiki the term system QB and they provide a good description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_quarterback

What is interesting is that our very own Graham Harrell is listed as such!!

I liked the article, but how did it fail to mention the Tedford quarterbacks?

And really, a system quarterback is a very successful college quarterback that--for whatever reason--has little success as a professional.

Skip Clueless is a system journalist. He was better as a Viking beat hack.

[billy_oliver880]

Well, if he's not listed as such on Wiki, he can't be one!

http://football.about.com/od/playerprofiles/p/aaronrogers.htm

[billy_oliver880]

So we just have a bunch of system qbs.

[gbgary]

Skip Clueless is a system journalist. He was better as a Viking beat hack.

is that after he was a cowboy beat hack?

[Tarlam!]

http://football.about.com/od/playerprofiles/p/aaronrogers.htm

" concerns he may be" is not a resounding declaration Billy. In fact, he was their #1 mock pick.

If he was a system QB, then he wasn't after taking all those sacks in his first year as a starter! That system wasn't workin' real great!

Ideally, the HC and OC put a plan on the field that is plug and play, then have plays that a vet can handle according to his competence level, no? IIRC, the Broncos had a few plays for Tebow because he really is a system QB and more for Orton, cause he was the starter.

[Upnorth]

Did the new cba get rid of the transition tag?

[jdrats]

Did the new cba get rid of the transition tag?

I don't know, but I was looking for that info yesterday and discovered that the transition tag just offers the original team a chance to match any offer the player receives, but doesn't get the team any kind of a draft pick if they don't match the offer. I thought there used to be some kind of tag that would get you a second or third round pick if another team signs the player, but I couldn't find any info on one. I guess I either remember wrong or they got rid of it a long time ago. Maybe I'm thinking of something with restricted free agents.

[Guiness]

How do the compensatory picks work under the new CBA?

It seems Flynn is going to get a lucrative contract. In the past, that would have turned into a 3rd round pick, the same as we got with Kampman. Cassel only fetched a 2nd round pick, is it worth the risk of franchising him to move up one round?

[Lurker64]

This system bullshit pisses me off. That means Bree's and Brady are system guys too then.

People saying "system QB" in the NFL are idiots, or at least they don't understand what the "system quarterback" criticism means.

Saying a guy is a "System Quarterback" is a critique of *college* QBs making the transition to the NFL, saying that they won't be able to carry over their performance to the professional level.

In the NFL there's no higher echelon of football you will be promoted to. If you have a system that makes your quarterback successful, that means you have devised a good offense. This is what you want to do. If you're devising your offense to make things hard on your QB, that's a mistake.

[Lurker64]

How do the compensatory picks work under the new CBA?

It seems Flynn is going to get a lucrative contract. In the past, that would have turned into a 3rd round pick, the same as we got with Kampman. Cassel only fetched a 2nd round pick, is it worth the risk of franchising him to move up one round?

I don't believe anything has changed in the CBA as concerns compensatory picks.

[Tarlam!]

If you have a system that makes your quarterback successful, that means you have devised a good offense. This is what you want to do. If you're devising your offense to make things hard on your QB, that's a mistake.

That's what my assumption was.

[Patler]

How do the compensatory picks work under the new CBA?

It seems Flynn is going to get a lucrative contract. In the past, that would have turned into a 3rd round pick, the same as we got with Kampman. Cassel only fetched a 2nd round pick, is it worth the risk of franchising him to move up one round?

Presumably a trade would be with a team having a poor record, so even a trade for a third round pick would be a high third round pick. The highest compensatory is after the third round is done.

The difference with a second round pick can be quite a lot. People have mentioned Seattle, which will have the 11/12 pick, depending. Their second will be #43 or #44. The highest a compensatory pick can be is #97.

[hoosier]

People saying "system QB" in the NFL are idiots, or at least they don't understand what the "system quarterback" criticism means.

Saying a guy is a "System Quarterback" is a critique of *college* QBs making the transition to the NFL, saying that they won't be able to carry over their performance to the professional level.

In the NFL there's no higher echelon of football you will be promoted to. If you have a system that makes your quarterback successful, that means you have devised a good offense. This is what you want to do. If you're devising your offense to make things hard on your QB, that's a mistake.

They're saying "system QB" to mean that someone's success (like Flynn) is a function of the system and wouldn't be replicable in another system. It's not so much a question of promotability as it is of translatability. The question is, does the belief in the basic difference between offensive systems really hold water in today's NFL, or do most (successful) offenses have enough in common so that if you have the skills to succeed in one, you will do just as well in others? Or, put differently, are most coaches flexible enough to mold their system to suit the QB rather than the other way around?

[Deputy Nutz]

Is Rodgers a "system qb"? My answer is no, but his progress does have a lot to do with the coaching he is receiving and the Mike McCarthy system he plays in that relies on a high number of passes, and a complex passing scheme that attacks the defense. Rodgers is smart, he completely understands the system, has the arm strength to make all the throws, and makes the correct decisions with football in hand. He is a perfect QB for the McCarthy passing offense, Matt Flynn who is less talented, but intelligent, and has been in the system for 4 years has enough skills to also perform well under McCarthy. It goes back to the original West Coast Offense that relied on a QB to make the right decisions and read the defense, not a QB that could throw the ball over the moon. It also relied on receivers and Qbs being on the same page, it is just as important for a receiver to read the defense correctly as it is for the QB. The bottom line is very few QBs make a poor scheme or system work, where as a good passing scheme and offense make average qbs good, and good qbs great.

[Fritz]

"TT won't give him a Franchise tender without having a deal to trade him all but completed."
- Patler

This seems the most important point of all. It means, then, that TT would have to find a trade partner he trusts, and will have to work the back channels. The worst-case scenario would be to try to put a trade in place, franchise Flynn, then have the trade fall apart and have a fifteen million dollar backup QB. At which point your salary cap is shot and you're going to lose Finley most likely, or Nelson next year, or whomever.

As others have mentioned, Seattle is the most likely landing spot. Tennessee has Reinfeldt, whom TT knows, but how long is Hasselback's contract?

And would TT want to try to work with someone like Dan Snyder? I dunno.

I wonder if Denver is a possibility. Despite all the Tebow mania, that guy doesn't put points on the board. He just doesn't.

I'd say the Pack will play it safe and end up with the end-of-the-third-round compensatory pick.

[retailguy]

As others have mentioned, Seattle is the most likely landing spot. Tennessee has Reinfeldt, whom TT knows, but how long is Hasselback's contract?



Who cares? Tennessee drafted Jake Locker in the 1st round last year. He'll get a shot before they bring in anyone else.

I agree with your conclusion. Take the compensatory pick and move on. It isn't worth the risk.

Doubtful that Flynn wants to stay, someone will give him a shot to start. Getting a 3rd round pick for a 7th round pick is a good deal. especially when you consider having the services of that QB for 4 years. Also, we should have Harrell up to speed. Whatever that's worth, I guess.

[pbmax]

Can anyone name a QB that has switched teams and signed a contract comparable to what you think Flynn is worth? I would be curious to see what kind of deal people think he will receive.

It can't be for Romo or Rodgers money, which is mid-level at this point, so what are the comparables?

[Patler]

I agree with your conclusion. Take the compensatory pick and move on. It isn't worth the risk.

Doubtful that Flynn wants to stay, someone will give him a shot to start. Getting a 3rd round pick for a 7th round pick is a good deal. especially when you consider having the services of that QB for 4 years. Also, we should have Harrell up to speed. Whatever that's worth, I guess.

That really is the key to this whole thing. TT will likely be more than happy with a 3rd/4th round compensation pick for a 7th round draft choice who cost very little and provided valuable backup for 4 years. I don't know if TT is enough of a gambler to risk tagging Flynn or signing him with the expectation of trading him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Silverstein has the facts on the situation. Technically, you can't franchise a player for purposes of a trade, unless other team is willing to pony-up two first rounders. But it's complicated, read and weep:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/flynn-departure-may-not-aid-packers-k43ld06-136557403.html

Unfortunately, I expect Flynn will just leave.

[Guiness]

Silverstein has the facts on the situation. Technically, you can't franchise a player for purposes of a trade, unless other team is willing to pony-up two first rounders. But it's complicated, read and weep:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/flynn-departure-may-not-aid-packers-k43ld06-136557403.html

Unfortunately, I expect Flynn will just leave.

I'm busy here. How about you make yourself useful and tell us what it says, and means to the Pack?
(channeling my inner MTP here. I probably should've been more insulting though)

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm busy here. How about you make yourself useful and tell us what it says, and means to the Pack?
(channeling my inner MTP here. I probably should've been more insulting though)

I can't really provide executive summary because story is nuanced, pardon my french. It will be hard for TT to get anything for Flynn, not impossible. TT is pretty conservative.

[retailguy]

Can anyone name a QB that has switched teams and signed a contract comparable to what you think Flynn is worth? I would be curious to see what kind of deal people think he will receive.

It can't be for Romo or Rodgers money, which is mid-level at this point, so what are the comparables?

When you put the numbers to this, the whole franchise and trade doesn't make sense. Cassell is the most frequently cited but he played a full season (well minus one half of a game), so there was much less risk there.

To sign Flynn? Probably $35 - $40 million total on a 4 year deal with $10m guaranteed. The franchise tag makes this type of contract unworkable because of the $14.5m franchise tag guarantee. So now, you're looking at $50 million minimum over 4 maybe 5 years, with a $13-$15 bonus up front, PLUS a draft pick.

Possible? Sure. Likely? No.

[ThunderDan]

I'm leaning towards the Pack trying to find a trading partner and then discussing contracts with that team. The Pack could then sign Flynn to a similar contract and trade to the "trading partner".

You need to think about the backside of this also. If I am Seattle or Washington or Denver, I don't want to get in a bidding war that 1) I might not win and 2) I might win and be paying $7-9M a season for a QB. I would rather know the contract I am going to have to offer and give a high draft pick.

[RashanGary]

They'll franchise him and get at least a 2nd.

[Brandon494]

Its going to be between the Browns, Seattle, Skins, and Miami. One of those teams will end up picking RGIII with their first pick and I think it will be the Browns or Skins. I think Flynn will either end up with Miami or Seattle and my guess would be Miami with him being a southern boy.

[Joemailman]

Its going to be between the Browns, Seattle, Skins, and Miami. One of those teams will end up picking RGIII with their first pick and I think it will be the Browns or Skins. I think Flynn will either end up with Miami or Seattle and my guess would be Miami with him being a southern boy.

Especially if Philbin gets the HC job there.

[Tarlam!]

Whatever happens, I hope it doesn't turn sour like the last time an ex-starting GB QB left the organisation. Slapping Flynn with a tag just to get a high second instead of a late 3rd without the consent and blessing of Flynn is a sure-fire way to show the remaining locker room that this is, indeed, a me-first business.

The Packers presently look like a great organisation that allowed an up till now career second-stringer with one previous start a final chance to showcase his stuff in anything but garbage time. One could argue that made a lot of sense, because they wanted to protect the Franchise and at the same time, explore what they had in their back-up going into the playoffs.

Still, as it stands, this is a win-win situation. The Packers, through their actions so far, could use their MO to attract UFAs and also in contract negatiations going forward. Especially if Flynn gets a bit contract.

[Smidgeon]

Especially if Philbin gets the HC job there.

Is Philbin's name out there for a HC job? I guess I missed that...

[Joemailman]

Is Philbin's name out there for a HC job? I guess I missed that...

Sounds like they want Fisher, but if they don't get him, Philbin is reportedly on the list of possibilities.

[Harlan Huckleby]

They'll franchise him and get at least a 2nd.

It's illegal to franchise a player for purposes of making a trade. As far as I can tell, the NFL looks the other way if compensation is modest. Check out Silverstein article.

My guess is that TT doesn't mess with it and lets him walk. The franchise tag is needed for leverage with Finley.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Whatever happens, I hope it doesn't turn sour like the last time an ex-starting GB QB left the organisation. Slapping Flynn with a tag just to get a high second instead of a late 3rd without the consent and blessing of Flynn is a sure-fire way to show the remaining locker room that this is, indeed, a me-first business.

In this case, Flynn is not really getting "slapped" wit a franchise tag, he gets long term deal in end. I don't think it is a problem.

[mraynrand]

In this case, Flynn is not really getting "slapped" wit a franchise tag, he gets long term deal in end. I don't think it is a problem.

exactly. I don't think the players could see a guy treated more fairly than Flynn.

[Tarlam!]

I don't think the players could see a guy treated more fairly than Flynn.

Fully agree - that's what I wrote, too. As it stands, the team looks almost heroic. That's valuable going forward. It's not worth rocking the boat, or an NFL investigation just to move up 1 1/5 rounds in a draft. It's petty at best, dangerous at least and damaging at worst.

[Brandon494]

Stop being so greedy and let the guy decide where he wants to go....as long as its not the Vikings :)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Stop being so greedy and let the guy decide where he wants to go....as long as its not the Vikings :)

look, the guy retired. TT bent over backwards accomodating the prima donna.

[Brandon494]

look, the guy retired. TT bent over backwards accomodating the prima donna.

Was talking about Flynn and the Vikings always going after Packer players.

[Tarlam!]

Was talking about Flynn and the Vikings always going after Packer players.

Oh my. The Master of Sarcasm has been duped by the Blue One.

[Brandon494]

wow I'm dumb, I thought he was being serious.

[RashanGary]

exactly. I don't think the players could see a guy treated more fairly than Flynn.

Yeah. MM and Tom Clements might be the best QB coaching duo in the NFL right now. The Packers have really helped Flynn along. When many GMs were saying, "bah, he's got no upside", The Packers were saying, "We're going to stand by this guy, get him ready. He has IT"

Flynn actually played a full year of college football and won a championship. Cassell was never even a starting college QB. Flynn has over 1,000 yards passing in the NFL and a 93 QB rating. I've watched Cassell play. He makes stupid mistakes. Flynn plays fast, plays with tempo. He seems to push the pace, more like Brady or Brees. AR and Manning take their time at the line. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Flynn is a good athlete, tough, smart, good in the lockerroom. He's going to get us a pick. I'd bet on it.

[Tarlam!]

wow I'm dumb, I thought he was being serious.

Well, yours was a serious answer. Now you play all coy and sarcastic. Too cute.


"bah, he's got no upside", The Packers were saying, "We're going to stand by this guy, get him ready. He has IT"

I always cringe with the "it" factor. You post your opinions with such authority, JH, I really marvel at your self-confidence.

He's going to get us a pick. I'd bet on it.

Of course, a comp. pick.

[MadtownPacker]

Yeah. MM and Tom Clements might be the best QB coaching duo in the NFL right now. The Packers have really helped Flynn along. When many GMs were saying, "bah, he's got no upside", The Packers were saying, "We're going to stand by this guy, get him ready. He has IT"

Flynn actually played a full year of college football and won a championship. Cassell was never even a starting college QB. Flynn has over 1,000 yards passing in the NFL and a 93 QB rating. I've watched Cassell play. He makes stupid mistakes. Flynn plays fast, plays with tempo. He seems to push the pace, more like Brady or Brees. AR and Manning take their time at the line. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Flynn is a good athlete, tough, smart, good in the lockerroom. He's going to get us a pick. I'd bet on it.
Solid post. I agree that Flynn will play along and everyone will come out a winner.

[Brandon494]

Well, yours was a serious answer. Now you play all coy and sarcastic.

I just said I thought he was being serious so of course I gave a serious answer lmao

[Fritz]

One point many have made here is that Flynn has limited experience. However, I don't think that will be held against him, for two reasons: one, his two starts were against good teams and his numbers were very, very good, and two, that limited exposure will be enough to whet the whistle of many GM's in this pass-happy league.

But I don't think TT will make this move unless he, like Belichek, gets something tied up in a nice bright shiny bow that he feels is ironclad. He'll play it like he does, close to the vest. There are many factors that would have to come together - another team/GM that TT trusts, a draft pick worth the risk (A high second? A first?), Flynn's contract demands, and a sense from Jermichael Finley's camp about what kind of contract he wants, since Jermichael Finley would not be then able to be franchised.

[Guiness]

I'm leaning towards the Pack trying to find a trading partner and then discussing contracts with that team. The Pack could then sign Flynn to a similar contract and trade to the "trading partner".

You need to think about the backside of this also. If I am Seattle or Washington or Denver, I don't want to get in a bidding war that 1) I might not win and 2) I might win and be paying $7-9M a season for a QB. I would rather know the contract I am going to have to offer and give a high draft pick.

Doesn't really happen in the NFL, because of the cap and signing bonus acceleration. The upfront money would count against the Pack's cap as soon as he was traded.

There might be some ways to get around this, but we don't seem to ever see NBA style sign and trades in the NFL.

[jdrats]

Thanks for the heads up on the Silverstein article, but I think he's getting it just a little wrong. Here's the key section to me (emphasis added):

"General manager Ted Thompson wants to get something for Flynn rather than just let him walk in free agency. But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it.

He and negotiator Russ Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent behind the scenes to find a trading partner and then negotiate a deal suitable to Flynn. If that happens, the Packers would sign Flynn to that deal and then trade him."

I believe the way the Patriots and other teams made this work is they slap the franchise tag on the player, but the player doesn't sign it. Once the player is tagged, in theory his options are supposed to be to sign or sit out. The team applying the tag has exclusive rights. None of the salary details, etc kick in if the player doesn't sign, so it never affects the cap and nothing carries over on the team's books.

So TT and Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent to find a trading partner, but key is that Flynn never signs the tag. When a deal is done, they make the trade, but Flynn didn't sign the tag so there are no further hitches for the Packers.

A question it raises though is if the Packers use the tag on Flynn, he never signs it, and they get a deal done before free agancy starts, can they still use the tag on someone else, i.e. Finley?

[pbmax]

The NFLPA is the interested party in enforcing rules against using the franchise tag to facilitate a trade. Unlike the NBA, where Sign and Trade allows a player to get a larger contract than they otherwise could from another team, franchise and trade works to limit the number of people clamoring for a players services in FA and increases the cost of the transaction in the form of picks or players back to the original team.

Enforcement of the rules are tough as the player is still likely getting a raise and an opportunity and probably would need to lodge a complaint, or at least provide testimony for one.

That said, its in Flynn's interest only if he can top $14.5 million (the QB cap number according to A Brandt) guaranteed in the first year. So the onus is on the Packers and his agent to find a team willing to spend that kind of cash up front for a QB with 2 starts and mop up duty, who is also willing to cough up their 3 round pick or better for him. This is in opposition to the plan of waiting for FA to start, signing him to the same (or better) deal and not losing a draft pick. The Packers also have to have an interest in dealing with that team, though the list of teams off limits is probably smaller for Flynn than it would be for Favre.

I don't agree with Justin that Flynn is viewed as favorably as Cassell and Schaub, each of whom had nearly a season of starts under their belt. Four years removed from college means that championship is worth less than it was when it elevated him to a seventh round pick. But it takes just one team to pull the trigger like the Cardinals with Kolb. However, unlike Kolb, Flynn has the leverage of FA. If his agent finds a team willing to pay, that team might not want to pony up draft picks as well.

[pbmax]

Thanks for the heads up on the Silverstein article, but I think he's getting it just a little wrong. Here's the key section to me (emphasis added):

"General manager Ted Thompson wants to get something for Flynn rather than just let him walk in free agency. But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it.

He and negotiator Russ Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent behind the scenes to find a trading partner and then negotiate a deal suitable to Flynn. If that happens, the Packers would sign Flynn to that deal and then trade him."

I believe the way the Patriots and other teams made this work is they slap the franchise tag on the player, but the player doesn't sign it. Once the player is tagged, in theory his options are supposed to be to sign or sit out. The team applying the tag has exclusive rights. None of the salary details, etc kick in if the player doesn't sign, so it never affects the cap and nothing carries over on the team's books.

So TT and Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent to find a trading partner, but key is that Flynn never signs the tag. When a deal is done, they make the trade, but Flynn didn't sign the tag so there are no further hitches for the Packers.

A question it raises though is if the Packers use the tag on Flynn, he never signs it, and they get a deal done before free agancy starts, can they still use the tag on someone else, i.e. Finley?

Yes, that is the key and as long as Flynn agrees to the process, he might not sign. But the minute the new league year kicks in, teams will be spending their FA budgets, possibly limiting his options and contract numbers. The longer it goes without a resolution, the more incentive Flynn has to sign. To continue negotiating with teams, the Packers need to keep the tender on the table. But at any point, Flynn can sign to guarantee himself $14.5 million. That is where their interests diverge.

So it would be very important to have the parameters of the deal in place before the league's new year so the first thing that happens is that an agreement on his new contract is made with his agent while the FA money is still available.

If it doesn't happen fast, the Packers have to have the cap room because he will sign the tender before the Packers have an interest in rescinding it. Otherwise he misses the boat.

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

[Joemailman]

Yes, that is the key and as long as Flynn agrees to the process, he might not sign. But the minute the new league year kicks in, teams will be spending their FA budgets, possibly limiting his options and contract numbers. The longer it goes without a resolution, the more incentive Flynn has to sign. To continue negotiating with teams, the Packers need to keep the tender on the table. But at any point, Flynn can sign to guarantee himself $14.5 million. That is where their interests diverge.

So it would be very important to have the parameters of the deal in place before the league's new year so the first thing that happens is that an agreement on his new contract is made with his agent while the FA money is still available.

If it doesn't happen fast, the Packers have to have the cap room because he will sign the tender before the Packers have an interest in rescinding it. Otherwise he misses the boat.

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

Which could be Schneider in Seattle, or Reggie McKenzie if he's signed as a GM by someone by then.

[Tarlam!]

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

It is a pretty incestuous league. I am sure that screwing up a secret negotiation would have repercussions going forward. Also, the trade partner has to worry about other teams swooping in with a challenge to outbid them.

Depending on how many teams need an upgrade at the position and how many QBs from the draft will service that need, Flynn's value will be determined.

[pbmax]

It is a pretty incestuous league. I am sure that screwing up a secret negotiation would have repercussions going forward. Also, the trade partner has to worry about other teams swooping in with a challenge to outbid them.

Depending on how many teams need an upgrade at the position and how many QBs from the draft will service that need, Flynn's value will be determined.

Sure. But it still happens. Within the last few years the Bears torched the Ravens on a draft day trade.

[Pugger]

The NFLPA is the interested party in enforcing rules against using the franchise tag to facilitate a trade. Unlike the NBA, where Sign and Trade allows a player to get a larger contract than they otherwise could from another team, franchise and trade works to limit the number of people clamoring for a players services in FA and increases the cost of the transaction in the form of picks or players back to the original team.

Enforcement of the rules are tough as the player is still likely getting a raise and an opportunity and probably would need to lodge a complaint, or at least provide testimony for one.

That said, its in Flynn's interest only if he can top $14.5 million (the QB cap number according to A Brandt) guaranteed in the first year. So the onus is on the Packers and his agent to find a team willing to spend that kind of cash up front for a QB with 2 starts and mop up duty, who is also willing to cough up their 3 round pick or better for him. This is in opposition to the plan of waiting for FA to start, signing him to the same (or better) deal and not losing a draft pick. The Packers also have to have an interest in dealing with that team, though the list of teams off limits is probably smaller for Flynn than it would be for Favre.

I don't agree with Justin that Flynn is viewed as favorably as Cassell and Schaub, each of whom had nearly a season of starts under their belt. Four years removed from college means that championship is worth less than it was when it elevated him to a seventh round pick. But it takes just one team to pull the trigger like the Cardinals with Kolb. However, unlike Kolb, Flynn has the leverage of FA. If his agent finds a team willing to pay, that team might not want to pony up draft picks as well.

It will be interesting to see if there is a team out there desperate for a QB that will find Flynn a lot more attractive because he has proven he can play at a high level against NFL defenses rather than a kid fresh out of college not named Luck or Griffin.

[Patler]

Just so there is no misunderstandings regarding the article, etc.:

- Teams have to have cap space available from the time they present a franchise or transition tender offer. It counts against the cap from the time it is offered, whether or not the player signs it. If the player does not sign a franchise tender, the amount of the tender continues to count against the salary cap until the Tuesday following the tenth week of the season, which is the last day that a player can sign a franchise tender offer.

- I would expect Flynn to sign the tender almost immediately, because the salary is guaranteed from the time the player signs the offer. If he were to be hurt in off season training, for example, he would get the salary of the tender offer.

- Cassel signed his tender offer two days after it was given. He was traded about 3 weeks later. There was a lot of "yes he did" "no he didn't" banter back and forth about whether or not he had signed it, but after all was said and done the facts seem to be that he did sign two days after the tender.

- Some things in the Silverstein article sound a bit wrong, or at least are a little misleading if read in isolation. For example, his statement; " But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it." has nothing to do with the need to have salary cap space available. They need the space whether or not Flynn signs. The issue relates to their ability to revoke the tender if he does not sign. In other words, if they think he will sign it (and I don't know why he would not), they have to have a trade lined up ahead of time, because if he signs and then the Packers can't work out a deal, they are stuck with the salary on their cap for the season.

- I am a bit confused about statements that "NFL teams are prohibited from trading franchise players. In fact, the rules say you may not franchise a player with the intent to sign him to a contract and then trade him. However, this rule has been broken before and the NFL tends to look the other way." There is a provision that prevents a team from trading the unsigned tender offer. I wish he would quote the rule he refers to, I can't find it in the CBA. The contract signed by a Franchise player is a standard player contract with a term of one year. I would like to know where the "no trade" clause comes in. If any one knows, I would appreciate some direction as to where it can be found.

FYI - there are two possible Franchise tag offers that can be made, an exclusive tender and a non-exclusive tender. There is also the possibility of a Transition tender. Only one of the three can be used in a given year

[Patler]

If I am the agent for Flynn, why should I actively cooperate with the Packers to "tender and trade" until after the tender is actually made?

The best deal for Flynn would be as a free agent, to go where he wants to go for whatever contract is agreeable to him from that team. It may or may not be a team willing to also give up a draft pick.

Assisting a deal in which the new team gives up draft picks takes away a potentially good player from the team he will be playing for. It lessens the quality of the team he will be playing for.

If I were Flynn's agent, I would discourage the Packers from making a tender offer. However, if the Packers do go ahead and make the tender offer anyway, I would then cooperate with them in trying to get to a team that Flynn wants to play for.

[Fritz]

After reading all this, it just sounds like too many landmines and not enough potential return. Let him go, as we mostly all thought he would, and deal with Wells/Finley.

Then please Ted, draft a right outside linebacker and a defensive end or two, and not in, like the later rounds.

[pbmax]

After reading all this, it just sounds like too many landmines and not enough potential return. Let him go, as we mostly all thought he would, and deal with Wells/Finley.

Then please Ted, draft a right outside linebacker and a defensive end or two, and not in, like the later rounds.

That's the other problem with the Flynn tender, signed or not. Its sucks up cap space when you might want to negotiate with your own (or theoretically other team's) Free Agents.

Which is why I don't see this happening unless its all set prior to the start of the League year.

[Upnorth]

So if we were to trade him I would love to see him go to Indy. This could work out for both teams quite well. Indy gives us there 2nd round, they then trade pick one for a boat load of picks to who ever wants Luck that bad. We get a 2nd out of a 7th, Indy gives a 2nd to get a bunch more, plus a somewhat more proven qb than you can the draft.

Or does this sound stupid?

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I am the agent for Flynn, why should I actively cooperate with the Packers to "tender and trade" until after the tender is actually made?

The best deal for Flynn would be as a free agent, to go where he wants to go for whatever contract is agreeable to him from that team. It may or may not be a team willing to also give up a draft pick.
Assisting a deal in which the new team gives up draft picks takes away a potentially good player from the team he will be playing for. It lessens the quality of the team he will be playing for.

If I were Flynn's agent, I would discourage the Packers from making a tender offer. not sure where you got that phrase "tender offer", but it sounds erotic.

No agent would ever look kindly on a franchise tag, I should think. They have no decision to make but to cooperate, it is a turd sandwich the players have to deal witb.


However, if the Packers do go ahead and make the tender offer anyway, I would then cooperate with them in trying to get to a team that Flynn wants to play for. Flynn is in a uniquely powerful position: he's too good and expensive to be a backup. If I were him, I'd be happy to be a franchised backup, his value will probably just go up, $14M is good dough, minimal risk of injury, waiting another year is not a killer. The world is his oyster, he has plenty of bargaining position with or without the tag.

Most likely TT will let him walk. Way too much risk to get fancy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So if we were to trade him I would love to see him go to Indy. This could work out for both teams quite well. Indy gives us there 2nd round, they then trade pick one for a boat load of picks to who ever wants Luck that bad. We get a 2nd out of a 7th, Indy gives a 2nd to get a bunch more, plus a somewhat more proven qb than you can the draft.

Or does this sound stupid?

If I were Indy's GM, I would take your advice. That should tell you something.

[MadScientist]

Cassel had a full season under his belt and only got #2 when bundled with another player. Is that enough compensation to risk using up the tag on him, when doing nothing will likely get an end of round 3 pick? Also, using the tag on Flynn will prevent them from using it on Finley. I don't see tagging Flynn at all unless Finley is locked up. Bottom line, I think TT will let Flynn walk. It's not ideal, but it makes the most sense for the organization, especially since no team in the division will be signing him.

[Zool]

Did they do away with the lesser tags in the new CBA? The one where a team would have to give up a couple lower round picks?

[Patler]

Did they do away with the lesser tags in the new CBA? The one where a team would have to give up a couple lower round picks?

Those are for Restricted Free Agents. Tendering options are:

- Right of First Refusal ("RFR")
- RFR + draft pick in round player was selected in
- RFR + one second round pick
- RFR + one first round pick
-

[Fritz]

So in a real sense doesn't this come down to risking losing Finley (by not being able to use the franchise tag on him) so you can move up a round or so in the next draft (getting the compensatory end-of-the-third instead of dealing Flynn for, say, a mid or early second rounder)?

[jdrats]

Yes, that is the key and as long as Flynn agrees to the process, he might not sign. But the minute the new league year kicks in, teams will be spending their FA budgets, possibly limiting his options and contract numbers. The longer it goes without a resolution, the more incentive Flynn has to sign. To continue negotiating with teams, the Packers need to keep the tender on the table. But at any point, Flynn can sign to guarantee himself $14.5 million. That is where their interests diverge.

So it would be very important to have the parameters of the deal in place before the league's new year so the first thing that happens is that an agreement on his new contract is made with his agent while the FA money is still available.

If it doesn't happen fast, the Packers have to have the cap room because he will sign the tender before the Packers have an interest in rescinding it. Otherwise he misses the boat.

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

Hmm, my bad. I guess I didn't know what I thought I knew. Seems I was wrong about some of the details related to signing or not signing the tender. I'll try harder to resist my "say things forcefully and people will believe you," tendancies.

Anway, here's an interesting article by Andrew Brandt that touching on the question. Since discovering I was wrong in my assumptions, I'm leaning towards Brandt's veiwpoint that it is possible, but unlikely, that the Packers will use a franchise tag on Flynn.
The link:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2012/01/04/manning-holmes-flynn-answering-the-nfls-new-burning-questions/

[RashanGary]

To me, the idea that Thompson may not find a trading partner seems largely overblown.

Matt Cassel had about 3,800 yards passing and an +/- 86 QB rating when he was traded. Flynn has 1,000 yards and a 93 rating right now. Cassel has no college tape. Flynn has a full season, a championship season.

I've watched Cassel play. He plays with slow tempo, makes silly errors throughout the game. I've seen him run out of bounds rather than flip the ball away to save the deep sack. His throwing motion is long and slow. His tempo is slow. His arm seems very average the times I've watched him. He's a statue.

Flynn plays with fast tempo. Faster than AR IMO. He's less worried about the perfect play. He'll throw a tight ball into his best one on one pass catcher (Finley) rather than try to find a wide open guy. He's more of a back-yard kind of player, but that works too if you can keep it in check. He's extremely confident. He's a darn good athlte and tough as heck. The guys seem to love him. He plays with that, awareness that he doesn't make silly errors. The game seems more natural to him.

To me, Flynn is a damn good QB. I think it's obvious. If Ted had to take a 4th round pick for Flynn to go to the team he wants, whatever. That's worst case scenerio. But any team willing to give up a high pick for Flynn is a team that really wants him. Flynn's #1 goal right now is starting in the NFL. To me, the Packers have given him so much opportunity, so many chances to grow that not all teams give their backup QB's. . . . . I don't think Flynn holds much resentment toward the Packers and I think this will be a pretty smooth process. Also, agents have found out that trying to strip the Packers of their rights will be met with the most furious fucking resistance, even trying is comparable to being a suicide bomber.

I'm betting Flynn gets us, minimum, a mid 2nd round pick, but probably more. And the team who takes him gets better.


I'd bet 3:2 odds that this thing goes smoothly and in the Packers favor. I think it's more likely than not and even if it doesn't work out in a really good way, I'd be 3:1 that it doesn't go badly.

Does his agent want the Packers to give up any chance for them to get something from this? Sure, but it's a standard part of the game. Agents trying to buck the system that much are rare and tend to end up hurting their client more than helping them. I highly doubt the agent tries to force the Packers hand in this standard proceedure.

[Harlan Huckleby]

To me, the idea that Thompson may not find a trading partner seems largely overblown. Sure they'll find a trading partner, but you are looking at situation like it's a free market. Devil is in the details. The moment that the Packers sign Flynn, the Packers are over a barrell. Not a great position to bargain from. Other teams know this even if they make informal deal in advance.

[Joemailman]

Sure they'll find a trading partner, but you are looking at situation like it's a free market. Devil is in the details. The moment that the Packers sign Flynn, the Packers are over a barrell. Not a great position to bargain from. Other teams know this even if they make informal deal in advance.

The only way this works for the Packers is if there are several teams that want Flynn. Teams then might be more willing to make a deal with the Packers instead of getting into a possible bidding war later. In my opinion, the best chance for the Packers is if Philbin gets a HC position with a team that needs a QB. He may be able to convince the front office to make a deal with the Packers.

[mraynrand]

Sure they'll find a trading partner, but you are looking at situation like it's a free market. Devil is in the details. The moment that the Packers sign Flynn, the Packers are over a barrell. Not a great position to bargain from. Other teams know this even if they make informal deal in advance.

But the teams the Packers (Thompson) are likely to be dealing with will probably not want to poison the well. These GMs have to work with each other. Someone screws the Packers over and they get shit on for who knows how many years. Has MN made a deal recently with Seattle (Hutchinson)?

[Harlan Huckleby]

But the teams the Packers (Thompson) are likely to be dealing with will probably not want to poison the well. These GMs have to work with each other. Someone screws the Packers over and they get shit on for who knows how many years. Has MN made a deal recently with Seattle (Hutchinson)?
I'm not suggesting a team will double cross packers.

[Smidgeon]

It's something to watch. There may be ten teams (random number) looking for a QB this offseason. As a free agent, Flynn may be desirable to five (two draft one high, three don't want to spend that much). If the Packers tagged him and tried to trade him, adding an additional price of a draft pick may take three or four teams out of the running for his services. Which would leave one or two teams vying. That doesn't leave a lot of leverage for negotiating draft picks...

[Zool]

Those are for Restricted Free Agents. Tendering options are:

- Right of First Refusal ("RFR")
- RFR + draft pick in round player was selected in
- RFR + one second round pick
- RFR + one first round pick
-

Ahh yes. Thanks

[Upnorth]

Those are for Restricted Free Agents. Tendering options are:

- Right of First Refusal ("RFR")
- RFR + draft pick in round player was selected in
- RFR + one second round pick
- RFR + one first round pick
-

When I brougt up the transition tag I though this is what I was talking about. So I was wrong in two ways with one post!

[vince]

The only way this works for the Packers is if there are several teams that want Flynn. Teams then might be more willing to make a deal with the Packers instead of getting into a possible bidding war later. In my opinion, the best chance for the Packers is if Philbin gets a HC position with a team that needs a QB. He may be able to convince the front office to make a deal with the Packers.
This. That would also make it advantageous for Flynn to work out a deal with that team as he'd most likely prefer the continuity of working with Philbin or Clements if he goes elsewhere for a coordinator position (assuming Philbin stays in GB). Beyond that, it's not in Flynn's best interest to restrict his options.

[Brandon494]

No one cares about college tape after hes been in the NFL for 4 years. Cassell played a whole season and finished 11-5. Flynn put up good numbers but both teams he played had horrible pass defense. I'm not trying to take anything away from Flynn because he played a hell of a game but lets get real, the guy to me is nothing more than a more athletic Ryan Fitzgerald. At best we could get a mid 2nd, anyone thinking we could get a 1st round pick needs to lay off the kool aid. Honestly I don't think he can be a franchise QB and I believe if you take him out of his comfort zone he has with the current offense scheme hes nothing more than the next Kevin Kolb.

[Tarlam!]

No one cares about college tape after hes been in the NFL for 4 years. Cassell played a whole season and finished 11-5. Flynn put up good numbers but both teams he played had horrible pass defense. I'm not trying to take anything away from Flynn because he played a hell of a game but lets get real, the guy to me is nothing more than a more athletic Ryan Fitzgerald. At best we could get a mid 2nd, anyone thinking we could get a 1st round pick needs to lay off the kool aid. Honestly I don't think he can be a franchise QB and I believe if you take him out of his comfort zone he has with the current offense scheme hes nothing more than the next Kevin Kolb.

I agree with the draft pick assessment entirely, but I believe you are taking away from Flynn with your assessment of the player. If you take any QB out of their comfort zone they play poorly - Rodgers @ Kansas anyone?

I don't know too much about the other guys you mention, but that last drive was a thing of beauty against Detroit. I don't know if the other guys you named could do that in only their 2nd start. Rodgers took a long time IIRC before he had a come from behind win. Flynn had the players playing hard for him all game long, even though it was a garbage game with a few bragging rights goals. A sign of leadership that won't be lost on GMs around the league.

I think Flynn, given a decent OL and enough weapons, will flourish in this league. What he showed in his two starts has me believing he's not a career backup.

[King Friday]

If Flynn is willing to help the Packers, they can certainly get something reasonable for him. 2nd round pick is probably a real possibility now that Barkley is not going into the draft and the number of guys who can start from day one has been reduced. You can sit here and argue AFTER THE FACT that the Eagles didn't get much for Kolb...when in reality they got a 2nd PLUS a guy considered to be a starting caliber CB at the time of the trade. So how is it that Flynn isn't worth at least a 2nd round pick alone at this point. The kid just did something that only 2 other players have ever done...who are both in the HOF. When did Kolb accomplish something like that? Or Cassell?

You have a good half dozen teams in desperate need for a QB in a league that has radically swung toward offense. Bringing in a "name", which Flynn now has to some extent, helps put butts in the seats...which is valuable to a lot of teams not located in Green Bay. If I were a team in that situation, I'd be glad to give up only a 2nd on a guy who has proven himself to at least some extent in the league...rather than risk it on a complete unknown.

I don't think the Packers want to use the franchise on Flynn. They would rather do a sign and trade to a team that would like to snatch Flynn before he hits the free agent market. Given the current situation in the NFL, I think that is a probable scenario that could play out for Green Bay.

[Bretsky]

Flynn is going via free agency and we'll get an end of the round third

[Joemailman]

Flynn is going via free agency and we'll get an end of the round third

That's the best you can get. Have the Packers ever gotten a 3rd round comp pick? Unless Flynn were to have a Pro Bowl type year, I'm afraid we'd end up with a 4th.

[Bretsky]

That's the best you can get. Have the Packers ever gotten a 3rd round comp pick? Unless Flynn were to have a Pro Bowl type year, I'm afraid we'd end up with a 4th.

you are probably right; but it's based on the salary and performance....so we'd have a shot at a three

[Tarlam!]

If Flynn is willing to help the Packers

Is it just me? Why on earth would Flynn be motivated to help make a championship team better? For ol' times sake? "They treated me so great, I owe them"?

This is a BUSINESS. Flynn is going to a new home. You don't think he prefers his new ball club to draft a WR or RB or TE with a high 2nd rather see it go to his old club out of sentimenality? Come on! What will his new owner think of Flynn, his new coaches and teammates if he conspires to bonus his old organisation?

The olnly reprieve might be if the deal was cut before he started against Detroit. TT & M3 to Flynn's agent "We'll give your lad the start against Detroit if he agrees to the tag & trade scenario".

If TT tags him, it is a crap shoot. It could turn sour financially or image-wise. It sends a poor signal to the locker room. As I posted earlier in this thread, letting him walk now is worth more in goodwill than the tag and moving up in the draft from low 3 to mid-high two. From the talking heads, we know it forces restictions on TT cap-wise, Finley-wise, Wells-wise.

[Tarlam!]

Have the Packers ever gotten a 3rd round comp pick?

I think they got a 4th for Kampy, no? They get something this draft for for Jenkins, prolly another 4th.


From Wiki:


Compensatory picks cannot be traded, and the placement of the picks is determined by a proprietary formula based on the player's salary, playing time, and postseason honors with his new team, with salary being the primary factor. So, for example, a team that lost a linebacker who signed for $2.5 million per year in free agency might get a sixth-round compensatory pick, while a team that lost a wide receiver who signed for $5 million per year might receive a fourth-round pick.

Kampy was injured early in 2010 season, which obviously affected his playing time and postseason.

I think it's safe to assume Flynn brings in a 3rd.

[MJZiggy]

Is it just me? Why on earth would Flynn be motivated to help make a championship team better? For ol' times sake? "They treated me so great, I owe them"?

This is a BUSINESS. Flynn is going to a new home. You don't think he prefers his new ball club to draft a WR or RB or TE with a high 2nd rather see it go to his old club out of sentimenality? Come on! What will his new owner think of Flynn, his new coaches and teammates if he conspires to bonus his old organisation?

The olnly reprieve might be if the deal was cut before he started against Detroit. TT & M3 to Flynn's agent "We'll give your lad the start against Detroit if he agrees to the tag & trade scenario".

If TT tags him, it is a crap shoot. It could turn sour financially or image-wise. It sends a poor signal to the locker room. As I posted earlier in this thread, letting him walk now is worth more in goodwill than the tag and moving up in the draft from low 3 to mid-high two. From the talking heads, we know it forces restictions on TT cap-wise, Finley-wise, Wells-wise.

Maybe quite possibly because the Packers gave him a shot, trained and developed him into a quarterback that is now ready to start. You don't think he walked into the league ready to start, do you? See Leinart for an example of how well that works. He's had four years of McCarthy's quarterback school and work with a QB who trusted his input and listened to what he talked about seeing on the field. How many backups who've never started have the opportunity to earn that kind of trust? Assuming he goes to an AFC team, there's not much to lose in making GB stronger and it is also a strong signal from his new team that they value him enough to give something up for him. There is a lot of reason for Flynn to appreciate the G&G and the hand he's been dealt. As an owner, you should know this already. :mrgreen:

[Tarlam!]

As an owner, you should know this already. :mrgreen:

As a part owner, I say SOD THE OTHER 31 TEAMS and THEIR FANS! I want Flynn AND my 2nd round pick!!

[ThunderDan]

Is it just me? Why on earth would Flynn be motivated to help make a championship team better? For ol' times sake? "They treated me so great, I owe them"?



Because if the Pack trades him, and it will be with Flynn's consent, Flynn will get to influence which team he goes to. In FA he will go to the "best" offer for Matt Flynn.

If Flynn doesn't consent to the tag and trade or sign and trade type of deal the Pack will let him go to FA.

[Patler]

Have the Packers ever gotten a 3rd round comp pick? Unless Flynn were to have a Pro Bowl type year, I'm afraid we'd end up with a 4th.

Packers got a 3rd in 1996 (drafted Tyrone Williams) for losing Paup, Hauk, Brock, Davey, Ed West and a couple others in 1995 while signing no one. They also had a 6th and a 7th compensatory.

and a 3rd in 1999 (drafted Cletidus Hunt) for losing Bennett, Doug Evans, Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Aaron Taylor and Gabe Wilkins in 1998 while signing no one of significance. They also had two 4ths and a 6th compensatory.

[pbmax]

Packers got a 3rd in 1996 (drafted Tyrone Williams) for losing Paup, Hauk, Brock, Davey, Ed West and a couple others in 1995 while signing no one. They also had a 6th and a 7th compensatory.

and a 3rd in 1999 (drafted Cletidus Hunt) for losing Bennett, Doug Evans, Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Aaron Taylor and Gabe Wilkins in 1998 while signing no one of significance. They also had two 4ths and a 6th compensatory.

A chance to salute Ed "Toolbox" West.

And to let gbbary know that Chastin "Toolbelt" West was playing for the Jags last week and caught a TD I believe. We always knew he had it in him.

[Tarlam!]

Because if the Pack trades him, and it will be with Flynn's consent, Flynn will get to influence which team he goes to. In FA he will go to the "best" offer for Matt Flynn.

If Flynn doesn't consent to the tag and trade or sign and trade type of deal the Pack will let him go to FA.

Dan, as an FA, Flynn has influence over where goes regardless of best offer. He makes a decision based on his value set. The highest offer doesn't automatically qualify him as sold. It is not an auction. As it stands, Flynn has zero incentive to get TT another pick, unless that deal was made prior to the Lions game. TT has no leverage right now. TT will only gain leverage if Flynn is offered the tender at which time, TT instantly commits cap space of 15m greatly reducing his leverage with Wells and Finley.

Things have to go awefully quickly almost clandestine for that plan to work. If he tenders Flynn, Finley hits the open market almost immediately upon learning of the tender. I do not know how loyal a Packer Finley is. He seems very much a "show-me-the-money" type personality. I see less risk with Wells, I think that guy genuinely likes it in GB. However, if he gets love from somewhere else, his price will inflate, too. This maybe his only fat paycheck coming. The chance of a homefield advantage is diminished.

This is the NFL. It's a business.

[ThunderDan]

Dan, as an FA, Flynn has influence over where goes regardless of best offer. He makes a decision based on his value set. The highest offer doesn't automatically qualify him as sold. It is not an auction. As it stands, Flynn has zero incentive to get TT another pick, unless that deal was made prior to the Lions game. TT has no leverage right now. TT will only gain leverage if Flynn is offered the tender at which time, TT instantly commits cap space of 15m greatly reducing his leverage with Wells and Finley.

Things have to go awefully quickly almost clandestine for that plan to work. If he tenders Flynn, Finley hits the open market almost immediately upon learning of the tender. I do not know how loyal a Packer Finley is. He seems very much a "show-me-the-money" type personality. I see less risk with Wells, I think that guy genuinely likes it in GB. However, if he gets love from somewhere else, his price will inflate, too. This maybe his only fat paycheck coming. The chance of a homefield advantage is diminished.

This is the NFL. It's a business.

Tarlam! certain teams that want Flynn on their squad will not get in a "bidding" war for Flynn. GMs have a limited amount of dollars to spend. Other than a few hyper aggressive FA teams most teams have a set amount they will pay at a position. Knowing exactly what you are going to pay your starting QB before he is on your team is a "large" piece of the puzzle in puting your team together.

Say you are Seattle and you really want Flynn or 1 of the top QBs in the draft. At their drafting position Luck and RGIII are gone. So they have to get Flynn. What if they are outbid or Flynn decides he's going to Miami for a lesser deal? Now as Seattle you are stuck with another season without a QB you truely want on your roster.

As per Finley, his play in 2011 has taken away the monster contract that we were all afraid of at the beginning of the year. The Packers will be able to offer him the security he wants at a "reasonable" cap number.

[pbmax]

Andrew Brandt on Flynn: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/New-Year-New-Questions.html&page=2


How much money did Matt Flynn make with his play against the Lions?

Hard to say, although Flynn's market value will be determined long after the glow of Sunday's win has worn off. And the mixed results on recent contracts given to quarterbacks with a small sample size, though larger than Flynn's – see Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kevin Kolb – will be discussed around NFL front offices. Both players were given guarantees in the $20 million range. But again, too soon to tell.

Could the Packers place the Franchise Tag on Flynn and trade him?

They could, but I doubt they will. The one-year tender offer amount of roughly $14.5 million – Aaron Rodgers is scheduled to make $8 million – would immediately become guaranteed were Flynn to sign it. In that event, the Packers would be on the hook for that amount pending a trade, giving Flynn enormous leverage with a trade and/or a new contract.

Further, the Packers have been in negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley on a new contract, using a relatively low potential Tag number of $5.4 million on Finley as their leverage. They would certainly like to keep that option available.

Finally, the Tag is meant to "reward" players with intent to sign rather than use as a placeholder while trying to trade the player. The NFLPA is keeping a watchful eye on these scenarios.

My sense is the Packers will not use this tool to hold Flynn in place. But, as always, stay tuned.

[Bretsky]

Good stuff

Get Finley done
Then move to Wells and get him done

and with the Bullbuster staying at the UW draft next year's Brooks Reed and use the rest of the draft on defense defense defense.....and maybe Russell Wilson :)

[pbmax]

With Barkley and Landry Jones staying in school, Flynn's value might have ticked up a bit. Though in the case of Jones, I think one of the reasons he stayed was because the news from the DAB was that he wasn't going as high as he thought he could. So he might not have been in direct competition with Flynn for a starting gig.

Did anyone realize the Draft Advisory Board also offered advice? They apparently told Montee Ball he needed 10-15 lbs of good weight in his upper body. I had never heard they did this before. Or is he hearing this from less official circles like an agent or his college coaches connections?

[mraynrand]

Did anyone realize the Draft Advisory Board also offered advice?

They told me I'd be 4F on account of my bum knee.

[Guiness]

Just saw this on wikipedia

As of the new CBA, the franchise tag offer will be the average of the top paid player at the respective position over the last five seasons. This will actually reduce the amount that a team would need to offer a player.
Certainly a bit of a change. The amount only depends on one player now, not five, and the 'exclusive' and 'non-exclusive' designations are gone.

[Guiness]

When I brougt up the transition tag I though this is what I was talking about. So I was wrong in two ways with one post!

As my kids are fond of chanting:

You're wrong
You're wrong
You're wrong

And even when you're right, you're wrong!

Little darlings, they are.