WILL the REAL TRAMON WILLIAMS PLEASE STEP UP ?

[Bretsky]

Or was last year's season a one hit wonder; this is a key question to the SB run

We've already debated about this plenty in PR but this was a telling article

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-coverage-plan-needs-upgrade-fb3mkoo-136789238.html

[bobblehead]

A cornerback is only as good as his pass rush.....which we don't have much of this year. For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

[Tarlam!]

I am with the Collins is missing believers.

[mraynrand]

For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

Triple teaming is pretty effective at preventing sacks. So is running everything to the opposite side. Where is the rest of your pass rush coming from? I thought you were the guy who wasn't stuck on stats?

[Tarlam!]

For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

Surely you're just baiting. You aren't serious, are you? If you are being serious, I am forced to ask what games you are watching. They aren't the games I'm watching. Mathews is having a helluva season, despite double and triple teams.

[ND72]

Here's my 2 cents...#1, we miss a guy like cullen jenkins, badly. #2, most blitz's haven't really worked this year. #3, we are blitzing more, which puts our DB's on islands. #4, Tramon has disappointed this year. He was as close to shut down last year as we could have, but this year...eh...I'm not down on him, just frustrated. But I think it is a mix of not having a solid pass rush, missing collins, and having a defense that hasn't had a true identity this year.

[pbmax]

Here's my 2 cents...#1, we miss a guy like cullen jenkins, badly. #2, most blitz's haven't really worked this year. #3, we are blitzing more, which puts our DB's on islands. #4, Tramon has disappointed this year. He was as close to shut down last year as we could have, but this year...eh...I'm not down on him, just frustrated. But I think it is a mix of not having a solid pass rush, missing collins, and having a defense that hasn't had a true identity this year.

What he said. Plus the sudden run defense deficit esp. in the nickel package has not helped force opponents into bad down and distance as often as last year.

But I do think Bobble has a point. As a DE beating an OT 1 on 1, Kampman may have been superior to Matthews. Most of Matthews sacks come on action and assignments where he is not one on one with an OT. But Matthews is asked to do so much more than Kampman was and he is better at all of the other OLB assignments, including stunts.

[Upnorth]

Regarding Williams it is a combination of pass rush and collins. Collins allowed him confidence to stick closer knowing if he made a mistake Collins was there to take care of it. Our pass rush takes longer to get home and requires more commitment this year than last allowing qb's more time and comfort. Good qb's will take advantage of that everytime.

Regarding Clay he is still having a big impact on the pass rush, just in a different way. He is either limiting the field of play when the oppsing offence roles away, or disrupting through pressures. A lot of our picks this year came from collapsing pockets or deflections. Who was doing the work quite often? When you combine pressures, hits and sacks Clay messures up fairly well, not the best but he faces double teams regularly. Kampman would often get doubled as well, but really just rushed the passer or runner. As PB pointed out Clay does more, and when he plays away from the rush his two blockers are frozen for a moment. That is the great part of Clay in a 3-4 defence, his ability to make the offense plan for him.

I would like to state for the record I am not trying to down play Kampman, he was an amazing player in the 4-3 whom I think very highly of.

[bobblehead]

Triple teaming is pretty effective at preventing sacks. So is running everything to the opposite side. Where is the rest of your pass rush coming from? I thought you were the guy who wasn't stuck on stats?

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

[Tarlam!]

Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game.

Now I know we watch different games.

[Upnorth]

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

Because thats more vauable than a guy who has averaged in the regular season 10 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 6 pass defenced, 1.3 ints and .7 tds a year is not as good as 15 sacks.

Cherry picking Kampman's best 3 years gets you 12 sack average, .4 pass defence and 1.3 forced fumbles.

[Upnorth]

Just looking at peppers and hali, two excellent pass rushers and you get about 12 ish average for the top 3 years.
Allen blows away the compition with just over 15.5 sacks, but he is arguably the best pass rusher in the league.

[Tarlam!]

Hali, Peppers and Allen all play for teams that did not make the tournament......

[Upnorth]

Hali, Peppers and Allen all play for teams that did not make the tournament......

I was going to include Ware for just that reason as well, but did not want to be so obvious. Very perceptive Tarlam!

[Smidgeon]

I am not stuck on meaningless stats. How many times you get/sack/hit a QB is meaningful. Clay is consistently stonewalled by the RT alone, I see it every game. He has many talents and is a great all around player...but until he matches Kamps best season in getting to the QB I am standing by my position.

PS...I agree, we need more pass rush from everywhere, and Clay is a great OLB...but he isn't a pass rusher in the mold of the guys who actually...you know....sack the qb 15 times in a season.

Matthews finished second in the league in QB pressures this year. Sounds to me like that's pretty meaningful.

[mraynrand]

Matthews finished second in the league in QB pressures this year. Sounds to me like that's pretty meaningful.

At Detroit they also had him in coverage - along with Woodson - a number of times to shut down the TE. It was effective along with the double-teaming of Calvin Johnson.

Comparing Matthews and Kampman is a difficult prospect, given the differences in defenses and responsibilities. One thing I would agree with is that Matthews isn't a pass-rushing OLB in the mold of a Pierre-Paul or Ware, but part of that is because he's asked to do a lot more.

FWIW, Pierre-Paul and Ware get consistently stonewalled by tackles a lot too. It depends on the tackle, the play, etc. etc. You have to look at the entire game, and stats don't tell the whole story.

[gbgary]

pass rush fixes everything/everyone.

[pittstang5]

Williams struggles are more apparent, probably because he's going against the #1 receiver a majority of the time - so, don't you think the QB is going to throw that way...a majority of the time. With that said, the secondary play this year has been sub-par all around. Burnett, Peprah and Shields aren't exactly lighting it up either. Shields needs to look for the ball more. If he'd only turn his head around sometimes, he could swat the ball away ar maybe even make an INT. Peprah and Burnett are sometimes way out of position. I've noticed Burnett bites hard on play action sometimes, which screws everyone else up. Maybe Collins being out doesn't help, but the secondary wasn't doing all that great when he was in either.

[Deputy Nutz]

A great pass rush is a large tube of lipstick. The thing I noticed is the Packers seemed to be called for far less illegal contact and pass interference penalties this year. I know Wood was victimized in the SD game, but the Packers haven't been as aggressive this year in their coverage. Maybe they are playing more zone. Peprah and Burnett are a shitty combination at safety as well.

[smuggler]

Tramon has been hampered a bit. He's given up the most receiving yards in NFL history by a CB in a single season. The pass rush is downright horrible. Raji has taken a sizeable step back and nobody else has stepped up on the line. Matthews is still a stud, and has produced in other ways since opponents can just gameplan him out of the equation.

Williams should be better next season when we actually put pressure on a quarterback occasionally. Right now, the pass rush is the one thing that could keep us from repeating.

[Pugger]

A great pass rush is a large tube of lipstick. The thing I noticed is the Packers seemed to be called for far less illegal contact and pass interference penalties this year. I know Wood was victimized in the SD game, but the Packers haven't been as aggressive this year in their coverage. Maybe they are playing more zone. Peprah and Burnett are a shitty combination at safety as well.

I don't have a problem with Burnett. Now that he isn't one handed he's much better. Peprah? You'll get no argument from me there. :p Collins did cover up a lot Peprah's shortcomings last year. Not having any kind of pressure let alone sacks is killing us. If you give even a lousy QB time you're gonna get burned.

[ND72]

Matthews is fine, but his failures this year are a direct reflection on the rest of the DL and OLB. last year, teams had to pay attention to Cullen Jenkins. This year, our best pass rushing DL is Jarius Wynn...I mean for real??? I remember the viking game watching the TE chip, FB lead, and the the Tackle block Clay. I donno how Reggie would have even dealt with that. We need another guy on the other side of Clay, and I really hope that TT sees and knows that now. He seemed to think Zombo/Walden would do the job, and everyone had high hopes of Neal, but the guy can't stay healthy. We could use a top notch OLB and DL in the next draft for sure. I think we've all said it for a couple years now, but hopefully TT sees it as well.

[ND72]

Not having any kind of pressure let alone sacks is killing us. If you give even a lousy QB time you're gonna get burned.

Which is why I keep saying our defense is what it is in giving up the yardage it does. It will be interesting to see the game plans Capers comes up with in the playoffs since everyone we will play except the 49ers we have played already.

[red]

i still don't understand the 15 yard cushions he gives to everyone

[gbgary]

i still don't understand the 15 yard cushions he gives to everyone

when you see that it's the defensive play-call made by capers.

[pbmax]

I was going to include Ware for just that reason as well, but did not want to be so obvious. Very perceptive Tarlam!

Same problem, you might mean Suggs, Harrison or Woodley.

[pbmax]

At Detroit they also had him in coverage - along with Woodson - a number of times to shut down the TE. It was effective along with the double-teaming of Calvin Johnson.

Comparing Matthews and Kampman is a difficult prospect, given the differences in defenses and responsibilities. One thing I would agree with is that Matthews isn't a pass-rushing OLB in the mold of a Pierre-Paul or Ware, but part of that is because he's asked to do a lot more.

FWIW, Pierre-Paul and Ware get consistently stonewalled by tackles a lot too. It depends on the tackle, the play, etc. etc. You have to look at the entire game, and stats don't tell the whole story.

All true. While I don't think "consistently stonewalled" is the best choice that could be made to describe Matthews versus a tackle, I do think he succeeds less in this matchup that Kampman did. But its not important that he match him exactly, because he is used in so many ways including being an occupier/decoy for other pressures. Something Kampman rarely did.

[pbmax]

i still don't understand the 15 yard cushions he gives to everyone

Its usually a zone where the CB is responsible for more than the short zone in a Tampa 2. And the down and distance usually indicate a longer throw.

[bobblehead]

Matthews is fine, but his failures this year are a direct reflection on the rest of the DL and OLB. last year, teams had to pay attention to Cullen Jenkins. This year, our best pass rushing DL is Jarius Wynn...I mean for real??? I remember the viking game watching the TE chip, FB lead, and the the Tackle block Clay. I donno how Reggie would have even dealt with that. We need another guy on the other side of Clay, and I really hope that TT sees and knows that now. He seemed to think Zombo/Walden would do the job, and everyone had high hopes of Neal, but the guy can't stay healthy. We could use a top notch OLB and DL in the next draft for sure. I think we've all said it for a couple years now, but hopefully TT sees it as well.

Happened to Reggie all the time. He dealt with it by sacking the QB anyway. Clay gets singled by the RT a lot. I watch for it. He is not the pass rushing force some seem to think he is. He is very good, not great. He needs other guys and the element of surprise. He is also very good at coverage and run D, all combined make him awesome.

[bobblehead]

Surely you're just baiting. You aren't serious, are you? If you are being serious, I am forced to ask what games you are watching. They aren't the games I'm watching. Mathews is having a helluva season, despite double and triple teams.

I guess they simply give much less attention to Jared Allen which accounts for him having double the sacks clay has.

[mraynrand]

I guess they simply give much less attention to Jared Allen which accounts for him having double the sacks clay has.

Jared Allen is a DE, and is rarely asked to cover anyone. Plus, he's one of the two or three best pass rushers in the NFL. Better than Matthews and, of course, better than Kampman ever was. But he's been stoned too. For example, see 2007 Chiefs hosting Packers, where Clifton shut him down one-on-one all day. It happens.

[mraynrand]

Happened to Reggie all the time. He dealt with it by sacking the QB anyway.

Or not. There were a lot of games where Reggie didn't get a sniff at the QB. Never saw him in coverage much either.

[smuggler]

Allen definitely benefits from having an excellent defensive line to play with. But, he's still the cream of the crop when it comes to pass-rushing 4-3 DEs.

[ND72]

Or not. There were a lot of games where Reggie didn't get a sniff at the QB. Never saw him in coverage much either.

Agreed. Reggie is my guy but let's not get too far ahead of things. And in GB, our DL had 4 pro bowl caliber guys. How many pro bowlers do we have, MAYBE one in Raji? Our 3 DL and/or other OLB are NEVER doubled. Teams don't respect anyone else in the front 7. I know clay has been getting beat at times this year, but we are pathetic without him.

[Pugger]

Besides Pickett - who's better at run stuffing that pass rushing - and Raji who else do we have on our D line worth a damn? Wilson? Wynn? Green? Neal?

Maybe with Bishop, Jones and So'oto back for the playoffs our pass rush will improve and help out our DBs back there. The best thing you can say about our defense is it can't get much worse.

[Scott Campbell]

pass rush fixes everything/everyone.


I agree with this. Tramon is going to magically get better as soon as Cullen Jenkins is adequately replaced.

I'm wondering if Jenkins departure has similarly affected Raji. He was far more disruptive last year.

[Scott Campbell]

Agreed. Reggie is my guy but let's not get too far ahead of things. And in GB, our DL had 4 pro bowl caliber guys. How many pro bowlers do we have, MAYBE one in Raji? Our 3 DL and/or other OLB are NEVER doubled. Teams don't respect anyone else in the front 7. I know clay has been getting beat at times this year, but we are pathetic without him.


Compare our D-line with the Giants. If those guys get hot, anybody that plays them will have their hands full.

I liked our chances heading into the playoffs better last year. We were playing better.

[Bretsky]

A wise man has noted many many times how much every part of that DL as well as the LB core missed Jenkins

[Upnorth]

Agreed. Reggie is my guy but let's not get too far ahead of things. And in GB, our DL had 4 pro bowl caliber guys. How many pro bowlers do we have, MAYBE one in Raji? Our 3 DL and/or other OLB are NEVER doubled. Teams don't respect anyone else in the front 7. I know clay has been getting beat at times this year, but we are pathetic without him.

Against a top ten pass blocking oline in det we got two sacks without clay. With him we probably get at least one more and a whole bunch more pressure. Clay Is very important but we aren't crap on a stick without him.

[Scott Campbell]

Against a top ten pass blocking oline in det we got two sacks without clay. With him we probably get at least one more and a whole bunch more pressure. Clay Is very important but we aren't crap on a stick without him.


But we can't get ANY pressure without blitzing.

[pbmax]

A wise man has noted many many times how much every part of that DL as well as the LB core missed Jenkins

Still not buying it for run defense. He played passing downs mostly. I'm going down with this ship.

[bobblehead]

Agreed. Reggie is my guy but let's not get too far ahead of things. And in GB, our DL had 4 pro bowl caliber guys. How many pro bowlers do we have, MAYBE one in Raji? Our 3 DL and/or other OLB are NEVER doubled. Teams don't respect anyone else in the front 7. I know clay has been getting beat at times this year, but we are pathetic without him.

Are you guys really trying to compare Clay to the great pass rushers? He is very average. He is a great all around player (the fumble he helped cause in the superbowl comes to mind), but he simply isn't getting sacks, and great pass rushers get sacks. When Kampman was healthy he got sacks...he was nearly equal to Jared Allen. If that prick MM hadn't tried to make him run around like a LB he might still be getting 15 a season.

[bobblehead]

Against a top ten pass blocking oline in det we got two sacks without clay. With him we probably get at least one more and a whole bunch more pressure. Clay Is very important but we aren't crap on a stick without him.

you're breaking with theme here. The entire D front 7 sucks at getting to the QB without clay. He is a man alone. Don't go bringing up pesky facts like the Detroit game to sidetrack the storyline.....and MMGW is REAL!!!

[Joemailman]

Are you guys really trying to compare Clay to the great pass rushers? He is very average. He is a great all around player (the fumble he helped cause in the superbowl comes to mind), but he simply isn't getting sacks, and great pass rushers get sacks. When Kampman was healthy he got sacks...he was nearly equal to Jared Allen. If that prick MM hadn't tried to make him run around like a LB he might still be getting 15 a season.

During Kampman's 2 double-digit sack seasons, the Packers had other viable pass rushers (KGB, Corey Williams, Cullen Jenkins). It is very difficult to be a one man gang, as CMIII has had to be most of this year. Some of the hurries he's had this year would likely be sacks with a little more pressure coming up the middle.

[Pugger]

During Kampman's 2 double-digit sack seasons, the Packers had other viable pass rushers (KGB, Corey Williams, Cullen Jenkins). It is very difficult to be a one man gang, as CMIII has had to be most of this year. Some of the hurries he's had this year would likely be sacks with a little more pressure coming up the middle.

Or pressure from the other side!

[Deputy Nutz]

Mathews is a good pass rusher on technique alone. I wouldn't call him average, he is just undersized and can get engulfed at the point by decent right tackles, especially when their isn't pressure coming up the middle. It has been a tough year though because even in a bad year an OLB in a 3-4 scheme should net you 10 sacks, this is the major problem with the 3-4 when teams figure it out or you don't have the key players in the front seven you have major leaks and breakdowns in all phases.

[bobblehead]

During Kampman's 2 double-digit sack seasons, the Packers had other viable pass rushers (KGB, Corey Williams, Cullen Jenkins). It is very difficult to be a one man gang, as CMIII has had to be most of this year. Some of the hurries he's had this year would likely be sacks with a little more pressure coming up the middle.

Not true. Playmaker theory. Those other guys were all inferior to Kampman and only his greatness made them look much better than they really were.

[bobblehead]

Mathews is a good pass rusher on technique alone. I wouldn't call him average, he is just undersized and can get engulfed at the point by decent right tackles, especially when their isn't pressure coming up the middle. It has been a tough year though because even in a bad year an OLB in a 3-4 scheme should net you 10 sacks, this is the major problem with the 3-4 when teams figure it out or you don't have the key players in the front seven you have major leaks and breakdowns in all phases.

Well said. I may have overstated by calling him average. He is clearly above average. He is pretty much above average in EVERYTHING he does which makes him a great OLB. He is not a great pass rusher though....he needs help around him.

[mraynrand]

Against a top ten pass blocking oline in det we got two sacks without clay. With him we probably get at least one more and a whole bunch more pressure. Clay Is very important but we aren't crap on a stick without him.

I don't know. A lot of games the Packers have looked like crap on a stick with Matthews. It seems to me that they're asking Matthews to do a lot of stuff, not just rush the passer, and that's part of the problem. Not having ANY pass rush from any other position is a huge issue as well. Also, many times the Packers can't send Clay the same time they send other pressure because they have him in coverage. Also, teams only have to scheme against clay.

Plus, just forget the OLB DE comparisons - that's apples and oranges.

And about Jared Allen: after watching him play for a pretty marginal defense this year, with little help along the line, I'm even more convinced that he's a significantly better pass-rushing DE than Kampman ever was.

[falco]

http://lombardiave.com/files/2011/01/tramon1.jpg

[Upnorth]

Well said. I may have overstated by calling him average. He is clearly above average. He is pretty much above average in EVERYTHING he does which makes him a great OLB. He is not a great pass rusher though....he needs help around him.
There are no great pass rushers with out some help. Mathews is very very good but not as good as dedicated de pass rushers. That is the point I was making. He puts up slightly inferior numbers to some of the best specialists, yet fills many other roles as well. That's why I picked some of the players I did for the comparison.

[pittstang5]

So, I've been watching the Detriot vs. Packers game for the last week or so, off and on (a little here and a little there). Tramon was absolutely horrible in this game. Horrible.....just horrible. He better step the "F" up against the Giants.

[Tarlam!]

So, I've been watching the Detriot vs. Packers game for the last week or so, off and on (a little here and a little there). Tramon was absolutely horrible in this game. Horrible.....just horrible. He better step the "F" up against the Giants.

Megatron has the ability to make unsuspecting secondaries look aweful. Sometimes it's more prudent to issue kudos where they are due, rather than put a finger on a gaping wound. It'll let you sleep better.

[pittstang5]

Megatron has the ability to make unsuspecting secondaries look aweful. Sometimes it's more prudent to issue kudos where they are due, rather than put a finger on a gaping wound. It'll let you sleep better.

No Doubt Megatron has the ability. He made some nice catches, I'm not taking that away from him. Tramon could have played and I've seen him play so much better.

[Upnorth]

Cruz has been playing at a very high level the last half of the year. The real question is can williams limit him the way he did Wallace, Jackson and atl reciever during last years playoffs? They all made some plays but were somewhat limited. We stop cruz and they have the underneath game left.

[pittstang5]

Cruz has been playing at a very high level the last half of the year. The real question is can williams limit him the way he did Wallace, Jackson and atl reciever during last years playoffs? They all made some plays but were somewhat limited. We stop cruz and they have the underneath game left.

Cruz alone doesn't bother me that much. He's good, no doubt, but the other horses they have in Nicks and Manningham could cause fits in the secondary. I'm not sure if Tramon will go against Cruz, I see Shields playing him more with Tramon and Woodson on Nicks and Manningham. Who knows.

[Upnorth]

Cruz alone doesn't bother me that much. He's good, no doubt, but the other horses they have in Nicks and Manningham could cause fits in the secondary. I'm not sure if Tramon will go against Cruz, I see Shields playing him more with Tramon and Woodson on Nicks and Manningham. Who knows.

Was Manningham injured the last time we played them? He had no catches. Also I think once you take away Cruz, Nicks is very containable, but that could be the koolaid.

[LEWCWA]

Manningham has that tendency. He disappears. Nicks is the vital cog to that rec. group. Take him out of the game and you should be ok. Shields and Williams have the speed to keep up with Cruz and Manningham.

[vince]

Manningham was out when the Packers played them.

[Tarlam!]

For those that annointed Clay the second coming when I was saying he was actually inferior to Aaron Kampman as a pass rusher....wtf happened??

Maybe I'm flogging a dead horse with you, Bobble, but I think this excerpt speaks volumes :


from One on One with Clay Matthews

Q. Your coach, Kevin Greene, said he’s never seen a pass-rusher have more blockers dedicated to him than you have this season. Has it been frustrating?

A. Anytime you have more than one coming your way, it can get frustrating, but you have to understand that this game comes together like a chess match, and if they’re going to send two, sometimes three guys coming my way, it means we have one-on-one matchups in other parts of the field, and we understand that we have to be able to win those and, at the same time, we still have to be able to beat those double-teams and bring pressure. You look at the top pass-rushers in the league and it’s a constant battle to get to the quarterback, but you look at the offensive coordinators around the league and it’s a constant battle to neutralize that one key pass-rusher.

Excuse me if I trust Kev Greene's assessment over yours! :hug: