Capers

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

What does everyone think of him this year?

I commented after the eagles playoff game last year that I wouldn't be sad see him leave to coach on another team unless he gets the D to show up the rest of the playoffs. Well we went on to win it all with the defense playing a big part in it. However, this year we statistically have the worst defense in football and I see a lot of people giving him a pass.

My question is why?

The main reason I see being given is that we play with a big lead most of the game. I personally think that is a total BS excuse. Other reasons include Collins going on IR and losing Jenkins in the offseason. I understand we lead the league in takeaways, which is important, but it doesn't seem the D can stop anyone out right.

We gave up a record 4700+ passing yards this season with the likes of Woodson, Williams, Shields, and Burnett in the secondary.

I think Capers deserves a big part of the blame. Other than Collins (which was a big loss) we have been fairly healthy all season. Neal not being able to replace Jenkins plays a big part as well. The D had a chance to ice the giant’s game and they failed. They had a chance to win a game for us when the offense was playing like shit in KC and they failed. The only game they played well IMO was at ATL week 5.

When the defense drops from number 5 to 32 I think the D coord deserves some blame. It seems like every time we make the playoffs it’s the defense that is always the concern.

[sharpe1027]

The first and foremost thing is that I assume that you are ranking the defenses based up yards/game? I completely disagree with using that as a metric and believe that it is all but worthless on its own.

The last two teams in this category have two of the best records in the NFL.

[gbgary]

i think he's done fine considering injuries and current team. if the pass rush was better we'd be hearing a different tune in the air. it's not like he suddenly got dumb.

[MadScientist]

It is a strange year for defenses. Packers gave up the most yards, NE second worst, NO third worst. The Giants are ranked 29th against the pass.

I don't think anyone here is thrilled with the way the defense is playing, but it does seem like there is something more significant going on here beyond just the Packers. As for Capers, given what he did last year, I'd be willing to give him another year and some good draft picks to see if he can make things better next year. If not, then it may be time for a change, especially if the league trend reverses itself and the Packers don't win consistently.

[sharpe1027]

Doesn't Capers have a history of having a quick improvement when he first arrives, followed by a decline?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

It is a strange year for defenses. Packers gave up the most yards, NE second worst, NO third worst. The Giants are ranked 29th against the pass.

I don't think anyone here is thrilled with the way the defense is playing, but it does seem like there is something more significant going on here beyond just the Packers. As for Capers, given what he did last year, I'd be willing to give him another year and some good draft picks to see if he can make things better next year. If not, then it may be time for a change, especially if the league trend reverses itself and the Packers don't win consistently.

I agree with this. It does seem like the year of the offense, but its how steep we dropped from one year to the next that is the concern for me. The D can't stop the pass or the run, all they do is takeaway the ball. If Manning avoids throwing picks I expect the Giants to drop 35 plus on us again.

[pbmax]

A near miss at allowing a game winning drive by Michael Vick and the Eagles Offense in 2010 caused you to want Capers to leave? After surrendering just 16 total points in the game? The Eagles had plenty of offense last year but no defense. They fired their DC at the end of the season. Yet the Packer offense that causes you no worry piled up a grand total of 21 points in that game. What am I missing here? Last year's Packer defense was lights out, though not perfect.

Its hard to take yardage rankings seriously as a measure of the best. And you are kidding yourself if you don't think an explosive offense, playing with an early, big lead (as opposed to last year's more consistent, smaller 4th Qtr lead) doesn't impact the passing yards allowed total. It does not explain it all, but its a significant factor. Just look at the point differential for the Packers this year (201) versus last year (148). Teams can run against the Packer D but cannot afford to do it often in the 2nd half. Add in the 4 minute offense and the Packers are often trading passing yards for time.

The per game point differential in 2010 was +9.25 Packers. This year its +12.56 Packers. I am hard pressed to say the defense is the worst in the league when the team improved this year. I would say 19th in points allowed is a better measure but I bet even that is inflated if we could know how many possessions the Packers D faced this year versus last. I would bet their efficiency number is close to average while the offense's number would be off the chart.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Capers can come up with all the schemes he wants but there still has to be players to execute them. Outside of Matthews there's nobody who can rush the passer. Last year there was some help for him and we had some players who stepped up in that regard. You get pressure, the defense suddenly looks a lot better.

This next draft or FA, the Packers have to get either a DL (preferrably) or OLB who can rush the passer and bring some heat. That alone would make the defense much better.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The defense has disappointed, but I've said for years it's stupid to rank a defense on yards/game. We have led by a wide margin in a lot of games. The defense gives up prevent yards. The offense goes in "wear out the clock" mode. For us, that means 3 runs and a punt--putting the defense on the field more often. The defense is pretty average, but it led the league in turnovers and I read that it was two points better than league average in points allowed. It also ranks in the top third, I think, or maybe just top half in opposing passer rating--which is a huge stat. You have to factor in opposing passer rating, points allowed, and turnover when judging a defense--along with some other things. To me, the defense is average. Is that good enough to win another championship? I don't know. We do need some new talent on that side of the ball. We need another DE. (Hopefully, Mike Neal fulfills the promise he showed last year.) We need another OLB opposite Matthews. (I don't see that player on the roster.) We need a safety. (Hopefully, Collins comes back or we find somebody in the draft.) We also need another corner. (Hopefully, that will be Davon House.)

[sharpe1027]

The defense has disappointed, but I've said for years it's stupid to rank a defense on yards/game. We have led by a wide margin in a lot of games. The defense gives up prevent yards. The offense goes in "wear out the clock" mode. For us, that means 3 runs and a punt--putting the defense on the field more often. The defense is pretty average, but it led the league in turnovers and I read that it was two points better than league average in points allowed. It also ranks in the top third, I think, or maybe just top half in opposing passer rating--which is a huge stat. You have to factor in opposing passer rating, points allowed, and turnover when judging a defense--along with some other things. To me, the defense is average. Is that good enough to win another championship? I don't know. We do need some new talent on that side of the ball. We need another DE. (Hopefully, Mike Neal fulfills the promise he showed last year.) We need another OLB opposite Matthews. (I don't see that player on the roster.) We need a safety. (Hopefully, Collins comes back or we find somebody in the draft.) We also need another corner. (Hopefully, that will be Davon House.)

+1

I do not want them to throw Capers out and then roll the dice on trying to find someone better from the coaching scrap heap; however, that doesn't mean I think the defense is perfect and cannot improve. I don't think that is giving Capers a "pass" so much as being realistic in my expectations. The defense has been good enough to win all season. Hopefully, it will get better in the post season and next year. Keep Capers, the alternative scares the shit out of me.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

A near miss at allowing a game winning drive by Michael Vick and the Eagles Offense in 2010 caused you to want Capers to leave? After surrendering just 16 total points in the game? The Eagles had plenty of offense last year but no defense. They fired their DC at the end of the season. Yet the Packer offense that causes you no worry piled up a grand total of 21 points in that game. What am I missing here? Last year's Packer defense was lights out, though not perfect.

Its hard to take yardage rankings seriously as a measure of the best. And you are kidding yourself if you don't think an explosive offense, playing with an early, big lead (as opposed to last year's more consistent, smaller 4th Qtr lead) doesn't impact the passing yards allowed total. It does not explain it all, but its a significant factor. Just look at the point differential for the Packers this year (201) versus last year (148). Teams can run against the Packer D but cannot afford to do it often in the 2nd half. Add in the 4 minute offense and the Packers are often trading passing yards for time.

The per game point differential in 2010 was +9.25 Packers. This year its +12.56 Packers. I am hard pressed to say the defense is the worst in the league when the team improved this year. I would say 19th in points allowed is a better measure but I bet even that is inflated if we could know how many possessions the Packers D faced this year versus last. I would bet their efficiency number is close to average while the offense's number would be off the chart.


You took what I said about the eagles game the wrong way. I wasn't talking about that game being the reason I didn't care if capers left. That was around that same time capers was being connected with possibility being the next head coach in Denver and many were getting worried that he was leaving. I wanted the defense to continue playing the way they had been all year until the super bowl before I gave him his due. I hadn't forgotten the cards playoff game from the year before. He found a way to get the defense to play big the rest of the playoffs and we won it all. I was very happy with the D and everything they accomplished last year. My question is does capers deserve some of the blame this year or is simply a consequence of circumstance (playing with a big lead, no Jenkins, etc.)

Is it Collins going down or Jenkins leaving the reason we are giving up more plays? Its not like we didn't have injuries last year.......I honestly don't believe its as easy as saying we play with a big lead most games so we play prevent defense. Basically the whole year its been the offense bailing out the defense or have I been watching different games? We have a MUCH better offense than we had last year and I don’t think its even close. IMO they cover up MANY weaknesses on defense. I hope we are not in a situation in the playoffs were we need the defense to win the game because I don’t think they will come through.

[Smidgeon]

The defense has disappointed, but I've said for years it's stupid to rank a defense on yards/game. We have led by a wide margin in a lot of games. The defense gives up prevent yards. The offense goes in "wear out the clock" mode. For us, that means 3 runs and a punt--putting the defense on the field more often. The defense is pretty average, but it led the league in turnovers and I read that it was two points better than league average in points allowed. It also ranks in the top third, I think, or maybe just top half in opposing passer rating--which is a huge stat. You have to factor in opposing passer rating, points allowed, and turnover when judging a defense--along with some other things. To me, the defense is average. Is that good enough to win another championship? I don't know. We do need some new talent on that side of the ball. We need another DE. (Hopefully, Mike Neal fulfills the promise he showed last year.) We need another OLB opposite Matthews. (I don't see that player on the roster.) We need a safety. (Hopefully, Collins comes back or we find somebody in the draft.) We also need another corner. (Hopefully, that will be Davon House.)

I myself am holding out hope that Davon House turns out to be a great pick.

[pbmax]

Gotcha. Thought the Eagle game was a strange one to say, aha, Capers needs to go. I don't think the AZ playoff game was his career Waterloo or demonstrated some innate flaw in his system. The Packers and Patriots have strafed the Steelers defense multiple times in the last 3 years and no one sensible was calling for LeBeau's head. If you need to blitz a great QB to get pressure, its going to cost you and Warner made the Packers pay. Same as Rodgers made the Cardinals pay. There is a decided lack of playmakers in the front seven and that hurts the pass rush. The Packers have spent a month looking for another pass rushing body after thinking Walden was going to do it and they may have to go back to Jones just to get solid play. You upgrade that position or put Jolly out there instead of CJ Wilson, the Capers looks smarter.

My only Capers related fear about the defense is the new Eagle front they introduced this training camp and apparently are still using. It sounds like its working for Pickett, but I am not sure about the rest of the defense.


"We moved him a little closer to the ball," Trgovac said. "The year before, there were times where he was out there on the end. Pick did that not being a selfish guy. Now in most of our defenses he's at least a three-technique. That means on the outside he's at least a shade on the guard. And he's more comfortable on the inside. That's really what he is."

[mmmdk]

I do not think this is a too bold opinion; but Nick Collins is our best defender and his career is in jeopardy. The absense of Collins is hurting more when the pass rush is lacking as it is. Yup, Collins is even better and more important than super stud Clay Matthews. :smk:
I cannot pin the lack of a pass rush solely on losing Jenkins; sans Claymaker the front seven have been average at best. This is due to the lack of talent, players in decline (eg Hawk) and players being worn down (eg BJ Raji & Pickett) in the front seven plus backups.

[Brandon494]

Can't blame Capers, our defense is just not as good as it has been the past few years for several reasons...

1. Losing Nick Collins who I believe is the 2nd best FS in the game behind Ed Reed.
2. Tramon Williams not being the same shut down corner. I don't know if his shoulder is still bothering him or what but hes clearly not the same player we saw last season.
3. Clay Matthews and BJ Raji aren't playing badly but they are not nearly as dominate as they were last season.
4. Losing Cullen Jenkins who was the pass rush opposite of Clay Matthews.
5. AJ Hawk playing horrible after having a very solid season last year.

Thankfully the offense has improved greatly from last season for several reasons as well...

1. Aaron Rodgers is the man.
2. Jordy Nelson taking a big leap in his play this season and proving he is the man.
3. Having Finley back, even though hes not having a great season he still opens up plays for others.
4. Having a improved running game with Starks and Grant. Last season we mainly had Brandon Jackson and Kuhn at RB.
5. Randall Cobb replacing Brett Swain giving Rodgers another weapon while also improving the return game.

[bobblehead]

Its strange how teams that run the ball really well have defenses that give up less yards isn't it?

[Bretsky]

I think Capers is just fine and needs more talent to work with

[Iron Mike]

http://snl.jt.org/caps/characters/RoSc-Richard%20Laymer.jpg

The Dominator!! The Capemeister!! Dom-atollah.....

[Tarlam!]

I think Capers is just fine and needs more talent to work with

O.K. I'll play diablo advocate. It's a sign of greatness when average players are coached into makeing great plays. It's a sign of greatness when a game plan is devised to mask the weaknesses a team might have. It's a fact of the cap age that draft & develop is the preferred option for long term success; nabbing a bunch of expensive FAs, or overpaying your own leads you into the situation TT found when he first arrived in GB. Therefore, it's a sign of greatness to develop JAGs into stars.

The lack of Packers' JAGs "taking the next step" is on the position coaches. The game planning is clearly on the DC. If his Backers are too slow, too undisciplined, too dumb he needs to address it with a gameplan that will mask that. He also needs to coach his assistant coaches. The buck stops with him.

If the Packers' defense goes belly up and Rodgers' offense can't compensate, there is a case to closely scrutinize Dom Capers.

[Bretsky]

O.K. I'll play diablo advocate. It's a sign of greatness when average players are coached into makeing great plays. It's a sign of greatness when a game plan is devised to mask the weaknesses a team might have. It's a fact of the cap age that draft & develop is the preferred option for long term success; nabbing a bunch of expensive FAs, or overpaying your own leads you into the situation TT found when he first arrived in GB. Therefore, it's a sign of greatness to develop JAGs into stars.

The lack of Packers' JAGs "taking the next step" is on the position coaches. The game planning is clearly on the DC. If his Backers are too slow, too undisciplined, too dumb he needs to address it with a gameplan that will mask that. He also needs to coach his assistant coaches. The buck stops with him.

If the Packers' defense goes belly up and Rodgers' offense can't compensate, there is a case to closely scrutinize Dom Capers.

Gotta have upside talent to coach it up.
Jermichael Finley.....early on you could see TT got us a guy with a ceiling
Bishop...a better example....some in here saw the same
Ditto for Burnett but he's been oft injured

This defense is hard to figure out. Our DB coaches are considered top of the line NFL coaches but Sam Shield has been disappointing from last yr to this yr and T Williams has been as well in terms of our expectations versus his current play.

If the defense is disappointing IMO it comes back to the trenches and pass rush..........now.........to you pts

Our DL is a disaster; several of them are not even average and IMO GB does a nice job just getting them there. Many IMO are late round picks with limited upside. Neal might be the exception but he's been AWOL due to injuries. Guys like Wynn, CJ Wilson, Howard Green....guys who are playing plenty...probably too much.......you get what you get out of them but I'm not sure they are guys you can coach to making great plays.

[smuggler]

Thompson is the one that secures the talent. Capers just builds the plays and gameplans. He doesn't even call plays, from what I understand, or at least Bishop/Hawk have a great deal of power as well.

[pbmax]

Its strange how teams that run the ball really well have defenses that give up less yards isn't it?

If yards were points, I could see this being important.

[pbmax]

Thompson is the one that secures the talent. Capers just builds the plays and gameplans. He doesn't even call plays, from what I understand, or at least Bishop/Hawk have a great deal of power as well.

No, Capers makes the calls and Trgo signals and yells them in.

[smuggler]

My point remains. There's no pass rush from the 3 down linemen. That's more from a lack of talent than from an insufficiency in scheme.

[vince]

We have led by a wide margin in a lot of games. The defense gives up prevent yards. The offense goes in "wear out the clock" mode. For us, that means 3 runs and a punt--putting the defense on the field more often. The defense is pretty average, but it led the league in turnovers and I read that it was two points better than league average in points allowed. It also ranks in the top third, I think, or maybe just top half in opposing passer rating--which is a huge stat. You have to factor in opposing passer rating, points allowed, and turnover when judging a defense--along with some other things.
+1 No team has more passing attempts against them than the Packers. They're 27th in the league in sacks, but last in sacks per pass attempt. To the extent there's a problem, that's it.

Give any QB (see Tebow vs. Steelers) time to throw the ball without pressure and they'll get the ball downfield and be successful, regardless of how good the guys covering are. Of course the Packers would be better with Nick Collins back there, but without more pressure I'm not sure they'd have been much better.

Despite the lack of pressure, the Packers have a top 10 defense (#9) in defensive passer rating, which is what matters most to determining a defense's contribution to winning games. They make plays and almost always win the turnover battle. If they could get to the QB with their front 7 (while covering hot TE/RB routes), they'd be dominant.

Maybe Jones and So'oto can improve that in the playoffs.

[Smeefers]

Can't blame Capers, our defense is just not as good as it has been the past few years for several reasons...

1. Losing Nick Collins who I believe is the 2nd best FS in the game behind Ed Reed.
2. Tramon Williams not being the same shut down corner. I don't know if his shoulder is still bothering him or what but hes clearly not the same player we saw last season.
3. Clay Matthews and BJ Raji aren't playing badly but they are not nearly as dominate as they were last season.
4. Losing Cullen Jenkins who was the pass rush opposite of Clay Matthews.
5. AJ Hawk playing horrible after having a very solid season last year.

Thankfully the offense has improved greatly from last season for several reasons as well...

1. Aaron Rodgers is the man.
2. Jordy Nelson taking a big leap in his play this season and proving he is the man.
3. Having Finley back, even though hes not having a great season he still opens up plays for others.
4. Having a improved running game with Starks and Grant. Last season we mainly had Brandon Jackson and Kuhn at RB.
5. Randall Cobb replacing Brett Swain giving Rodgers another weapon while also improving the return game.

This. Something else I'd like to add, does anyone think we'd have a problem on the D line if Jolly didn't destroy his career? I really thought he was the next big player on our line.

[Upnorth]

Doesn't Capers have a history of having a quick improvement when he first arrives, followed by a decline?

I have read this analysis previously as well. I think Waldo may have mentioned it before on here, but could be wrong.

The d gets lots of turnovers and rarely gives up game winning points, unlike in 2008 when it seemed the opposing offense would always score on their last drive.

Also Smeefers is right about Jolly, we would be much much better with him.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Our DL is a disaster; several of them are not even average and IMO GB does a nice job just getting them there. Many IMO are late round picks with limited upside. Neal might be the exception but he's been AWOL due to injuries. Guys like Wynn, CJ Wilson, Howard Green....guys who are playing plenty...probably too much.......you get what you get out of them but I'm not sure they are guys you can coach to making great plays.

I don't think the DL has been a disaster. You don't often get good pass rushing from DL in this 3-4 scheme. Pittsburgh's DL rarely get more than a handful of sacks. Raji and Pickett are solid. Green is a solid rotational guy. Wilson is a solid backup. I think we were a Cullen Jenkins or healthy Mike Neal from having a good DL. Which is the only difference between this year and last year. More than anything, we need a good ROLB opposite Matthews and we need better DB play. Like you said, Shields and Williams have disappointed, and the safety play has not been good. I put the onus more on ROLB and DBs than DL. Walden has been absolutetly atrocious since his arrest. So much so that he went from looking like a decent starter to being benched, and they don't even appear to want to give him any more chances. That's a pretty big fall in the second half of the year.

[Zool]

Where's the psycho defense been this year? I don't recall seeing it at all. Maybe I'm not paying attention? That really caught a lot of people off guard last year.

[Bossman641]

+1 No team has more passing attempts against them than the Packers. They're 27th in the league in sacks, but last in sacks per pass attempt. To the extent there's a problem, that's it.

This!
Throw in the fact that Hawk can't cover and the DB's have a disturbing habit of miscommunication and you can spread the blame all around.

[Pugger]

Capers can come up with all the schemes he wants but there still has to be players to execute them. Outside of Matthews there's nobody who can rush the passer. Last year there was some help for him and we had some players who stepped up in that regard. You get pressure, the defense suddenly looks a lot better.

This next draft or FA, the Packers have to get either a DL (preferrably) or OLB who can rush the passer and bring some heat. That alone would make the defense much better.

This. If you cannot rush the passer these days offenses are gonna put up a pile of yards on you.

[Pugger]

I do not think this is a too bold opinion; but Nick Collins is our best defender and his career is in jeopardy. The absense of Collins is hurting more when the pass rush is lacking as it is. Yup, Collins is even better and more important than super stud Clay Matthews. :smk:
I cannot pin the lack of a pass rush solely on losing Jenkins; sans Claymaker the front seven have been average at best. This is due to the lack of talent, players in decline (eg Hawk) and players being worn down (eg BJ Raji & Pickett) in the front seven plus backups.

Besides Pickett and Raji our D line isn't full of a lot of playmakers. We gotta hope Jones and Zombo can give some pressure opposite CM3 on Sunday.

[Smidgeon]

I have read this analysis previously as well. I think Waldo may have mentioned it before on here, but could be wrong.

The d gets lots of turnovers and rarely gives up game winning points, unlike in 2008 when it seemed the opposing offense would always score on their last drive.

Also Smeefers is right about Jolly, we would be much much better with him.

Well, Capers previous two stops were the two franchise expansions, right? If so, that would explain the sudden drop the second year. And I saw the stats too. They were legit. I just don't remember where.

[Pugger]

+1 No team has more passing attempts against them than the Packers. They're 27th in the league in sacks, but last in sacks per pass attempt. To the extent there's a problem, that's it.

Give any QB (see Tebow vs. Steelers) time to throw the ball without pressure and they'll get the ball downfield and be successful, regardless of how good the guys covering are. Of course the Packers would be better with Nick Collins back there, but without more pressure I'm not sure they'd have been much better.

Despite the lack of pressure, the Packers have a top 10 defense (#9) in defensive passer rating, which is what matters most to determining a defense's contribution to winning games. They make plays and almost always win the turnover battle. If they could get to the QB with their front 7 (while covering hot TE/RB routes), they'd be dominant.

Maybe Jones and So'oto can improve that in the playoffs.

We were having these issues defensively before Collins got hurt.

[Pugger]

This. Something else I'd like to add, does anyone think we'd have a problem on the D line if Jolly didn't destroy his career? I really thought he was the next big player on our line.

Probably not. Plus had Harrell not been so injury prone our D line would have been just fine = Raji, Pickett, Harrell and Jolly. Now we have Raji, Pickett, Green, Wynn, Wilson and maybe Neal.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We were having these issues defensively before Collins got hurt.

I think Collins was missed. He got hurt in the second game of the year, and we played New Orleans (Brees) and Carolina (Newton). New Orleans was 1st in yards/game and 2nd in points/game. Carolina was 7th in yards/game and 6th in points/game. Small sample size against two of the best offenses in the league.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

To me a lot of it seems to be scheme honestly. As Zool said, where is the psycho package this year? Where is the confusion that we created last year? We have pretty much as same group of guys that we had last season. Many teams would be more than happy to have the players we have in the secondary even currently without Collins.

And Pbmax made a good point about playing the eagle defense that capers installed. I personally hated that idea in the offseason because well we tried it before and it didn’t work well. We tired Raji at DE as a rookie and he didn’t make nearly as many plays as he did rushing from NT. I loved how last year they let him settle in his spot at NT and we all saw the results.

We don’t seem to be mixing it up as much as we did last season. Why not come up with packages that get Bishop, Hawk, Smith, Matthews, and Zombo in all together and send them from all different directions? I’m no D coordinator, but it seemed that Capers was good at finding a way to get his best payers on the field before and I just don’t see it right now. I’m not trying to put it all on Capers because I will be the first to admit the losing Collins was big, but it seemed like last year Capers came up with something new every week and this year we are back to vanilla defense again. If anything this would be the year to be creative and mix it up as much as possible and take chances. I feel that are plan is let the offense win the game and defense job is to sit back and try to force turnovers.

[ND72]

I'm certainly not going to throw Capers under the bus here. We lost our only significant other pass rush guy in Jenkins and replaced him with nothing. We lost our leader on the defense and All-Pro caliber Safety in Collins. Our other OLB position has been pitiful this year, and our MLB have had injuries. Tramon has not been what he was last year, and Shields took a step back as well. That all isn't always on coaching, players still have to play.

I still have a feeling Capers has something up his sleeve come playoff time. He's seen these teams before. Our defense will be ready. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 28-17 type game sunday. Also wouldn't be surprised to see a 49-42 game. 2009-2010 season we had flaws and they got corrected. Last year we had flaws and they got corrected during the season. This year has been weird, because our offense has been crazy good. It's hard to rank a defense when you're up 35-17, human nature and football nature to sit back a little bit. I guess we'll see, but I think against New York we'll have a solid plan ready and our defense will (hopefully) show up.

[denverYooper]

I'm certainly not going to throw Capers under the bus here. We lost our only significant other pass rush guy in Jenkins and replaced him with nothing. We lost our leader on the defense and All-Pro caliber Safety in Collins. Our other OLB position has been pitiful this year, and our MLB have had injuries. Tramon has not been what he was last year, and Shields took a step back as well. That all isn't always on coaching, players still have to play.

I still have a feeling Capers has something up his sleeve come playoff time. He's seen these teams before. Our defense will be ready. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 28-17 type game sunday. Also wouldn't be surprised to see a 49-42 game. 2009-2010 season we had flaws and they got corrected. Last year we had flaws and they got corrected during the season. This year has been weird, because our offense has been crazy good. It's hard to rank a defense when you're up 35-17, human nature and football nature to sit back a little bit. I guess we'll see, but I think against New York we'll have a solid plan ready and our defense will (hopefully) show up.

I feel this to be the case too and I'm willing to bet they have worked awfully hard during the bye week to find some more pass rush. The question is, will it work?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think you can blame scheme. We didn't get a pass rush rushing four, so Capers has been blitzing more. It's quite natural and predictable. That has led to bigger plays by opposing offenses because we have fewer people in coverage, but it has also led to even more interceptions. He doesn't quite have the horses he did last year, and the secondary hasn't held up nearly as well.

[ND72]

I don't think you can blame scheme. We didn't get a pass rush rushing four, so Capers has been blitzing more. It's quite natural and predictable. That has led to bigger plays by opposing offenses because we have fewer people in coverage, but it has also led to even more interceptions. He doesn't quite have the horses he did last year, and the secondary hasn't held up nearly as well.

and BINGO was his name-o...

PLUS, capers has even said in his blitzing he has done more zone blitzing this year, which has a tendacy to leave gaps in passing if you don't reach the QB.

[wist43]

We only have 2 legit NFL calibur DL... hard to run any scheme when you can't field even average players.

If we make it to the SB and have to play NE?? It will be the first NFL game ever where over 150 pts are scored, lol.

[Upnorth]

We only have 2 legit NFL calibur DL... hard to run any scheme when you can't field even average players.

If we make it to the SB and have to play NE?? It will be the first NFL game ever where over 150 pts are scored, lol.

Also the lowest scoring nba final in history!

[Fritz]

I don't feel like Cullen Jenkins made that that much difference in the pass rush. Hell, the guy didn't even play that much during the playoff run, did he? So why else might the defense have been so much better last year? Were teams not doubling Clay as much? Collins's injury?

What the hell happened?

[pbmax]

Where's the psycho defense been this year? I don't recall seeing it at all. Maybe I'm not paying attention? That really caught a lot of people off guard last year.

They have played it since Neal came back but it went nowhere, no pressure. And after it was clear he couldn't get to the QB, it got shelved. I think Wynn and Wilson got a couple of snaps in it, but that was it. It it was used 20 snaps, I would be surprised. The defense doesn't go unless the DT can beat someone one on one or demand a double team.

[Smeefers]

I don't feel like Cullen Jenkins made that that much difference in the pass rush. Hell, the guy didn't even play that much during the playoff run, did he? So why else might the defense have been so much better last year? Were teams not doubling Clay as much? Collins's injury?

What the hell happened?

Oh, that's easy. Wynn, Raji, Hawk, Zombo, Walden and Jones all took a step back. Tramon has taken a step back - being one of the most targeted* CB's in the game probably doesn't help, especially when he doesn't have safety help very much, which is probably why he's one of the most targeted cb's. It's also a big difference when you loose Nick Collins and replace him with peprah instead of loosing Morgan Burnett and replacing him with peprah. Burnett had a broken hand for half the season. I think Sam Shields is playing just as good as he did last year, no real improvement, which is disappointing. Woodson is getting old, still good, but old. Clay leads the league in pressures but he can't get to the qb with any sacks.

Basically, our stars stayed good, our young guys didn't improve and our vets regressed a little. I still blame it all on the lock out.

*http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/

[jdrats]

Rumors out today that McKenzie may be interested in Capers as HC for the Raiders.

I don't know what our problem has been on defense this year, but I'd rather have Capers back again next year than anyone else. I'd love to see many years of a McCarthy/Capers combo and hopefully a long run of Packers dominance.

[Tarlam!]

I still blame it all on the lock out.

Agree with everything you wrote - all makes sense. We shouldn't, however, use the lockout as an excuse. Unless we count and compare all other teams' rookings and sophomore players, we don't have a benchmark. As it is, the Packers and Steelers players had the shortest off season, so if anything, they had a slight advantage.

[sharpe1027]

Agree with everything you wrote - all makes sense. We shouldn't, however, use the lockout as an excuse. Unless we count and compare all other teams' rookings and sophomore players, we don't have a benchmark. As it is, the Packers and Steelers players had the shortest off season, so if anything, they had a slight advantage.

Or a disadvantage. Aren't the off season programs part of the reason that first and second year players make big improvements? Less time would not help in that respect.

[mraynrand]

What the hell happened?

One thing is that the aggressiveness of the secondary has diminished. I don't know how the hell Tramon Williams played through his shoulder separation. I've had that injury - I couldn't raise my arm over my head for two months. Even with a harness, how do you tackle with that? Some guys miss a season with that injury. Burnett played with a cast. Collins was lost. You put that together and Capers basically has his hands tied. He can't play that agressive man coverage at corners, with a single high safety and not get burned, especially without a pass rush, so he has to play a lot of off coverage. Look at the tapes. How many games, how many times have you seen the CBs 10-15 yards off the LOS? You're just going to give up a lot of yards that way.

[ND72]

+1 No team has more passing attempts against them than the Packers. They're 27th in the league in sacks, but last in sacks per pass attempt. To the extent there's a problem, that's it.
Give any QB (see Tebow vs. Steelers) time to throw the ball without pressure and they'll get the ball downfield and be successful, regardless of how good the guys covering are. Of course the Packers would be better with Nick Collins back there, but without more pressure I'm not sure they'd have been much better.

Despite the lack of pressure, the Packers have a top 10 defense (#9) in defensive passer rating, which is what matters most to determining a defense's contribution to winning games. They make plays and almost always win the turnover battle. If they could get to the QB with their front 7 (while covering hot TE/RB routes), they'd be dominant.

Maybe Jones and So'oto can improve that in the playoffs.

GREAT stat. Someone on NFL network mentioned this as well, nobody really had much of a comeback to that...yet many of the NFL network guys are going with Giants.

[ND72]

Rumors out today that McKenzie may be interested in Capers as HC for the Raiders.

I don't know what our problem has been on defense this year, but I'd rather have Capers back again next year than anyone else. I'd love to see many years of a McCarthy/Capers combo and hopefully a long run of Packers dominance.

I've heard Winston Moss with Perry or Greene going as DC with him, and Edgar going as OC. (Madison espn)

[denverYooper]

GREAT stat. Someone on NFL network mentioned this as well, nobody really had much of a comeback to that...yet many of the NFL network guys are going with Giants.

Jason Cole on our local yak was talking about that. He said that teams have to throw to keep up but they're not as successful as most media heads would make it seem.

[Smeefers]

Agree with everything you wrote - all makes sense. We shouldn't, however, use the lockout as an excuse. Unless we count and compare all other teams' rookings and sophomore players, we don't have a benchmark. As it is, the Packers and Steelers players had the shortest off season, so if anything, they had a slight advantage.

I guess I just don't agree with you. I don't think Brett got better when he skipped the training camps. I don't think veterans improve or stay the same when they're not participating in pre season team activities. I understand other teams had the same disadvantage, but I don't think that means it didn't hurt us too. I also think some of the guys who suffered the most are the guys who didn't play much last year because of injury. Either way, or D should be playing better, but I don't think they're playing poorly either. Regardless of our yardage totals, I think we're a middle of the pack D.

[Tarlam!]

Or a disadvantage. Aren't the off season programs part of the reason that first and second year players make big improvements? Less time would not help in that respect.

Since all teams were affected by the lockout, the was no disadvantage to any team. Green Bay and Pittburgh still had a game to play after everyone else, meaning, they had more practice time and game reps than any other team last year.

[sharpe1027]

Since all teams were affected by the lockout, the was no disadvantage to any team. Green Bay and Pittburgh still had a game to play after everyone else, meaning, they had more practice time and game reps than any other team last year.

IDK, playing in the SB also meant that players are not ready/willing/motivated to begin their off season workout programs as quickly as other teams. The Packers were one of the few teams that did not to have a single player organized workout session. That means that players were completely on their own until the first minicamp (~July?). Probably fine for Veterans who know the ropes, but not so good for young guys that need to improve.

[Tarlam!]

Sharpy, don't you remember Rodgers' postgame interview week 1?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/09/aaron-rodgers-eager-to-chide-offseason-workout-critics/

[sharpe1027]

Sharpy, don't you remember Rodgers' postgame interview week 1?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/09/aaron-rodgers-eager-to-chide-offseason-workout-critics/

Obviously, the team has done great overall. They only lost one game! However, I was specifically talking about a possible reason why younger players have not shown as much improvement as might be expected. The Rodgers article doesn't really address that. Not saying it is necessarily the reason, but it's at least plausible.

[Guiness]

I've heard Winston Moss with Perry or Greene going as DC with him, and Edgar going as OC. (Madison espn)

Much as I'd hate to see him go, I almost hope Bennett gets that job. He's put in his time, worked his way through the ranks, and that's the next logical step for him - seems like he deserves it.
Greene as a DC seems like quite a jump though. How much coaching did he have before GB? I'm pretty sure it's his first job. He's the OLB coach here, doesn't seem like he'd get much overall insight into what it takes to run the whole defense.

[sharpe1027]

Much as I'd hate to see him go, I almost hope Bennett gets that job. He's put in his time, worked his way through the ranks, and that's the next logical step for him - seems like he deserves it.
Greene as a DC seems like quite a jump though. How much coaching did he have before GB? I'm pretty sure it's his first job. He's the OLB coach here, doesn't seem like he'd get much overall insight into what it takes to run the whole defense.

Virtually zero. I would not be happy with that decision, but what do I know?

[Tarlam!]

However, I was specifically talking about a possible reason why younger players have not shown as much improvement as might be expected. The Rodgers article doesn't really address that. Not saying it is necessarily the reason, but it's at least plausible.

I agree with that, but ALL teams younger players are at the same disadvantage, so we can't put that forward as an excuse.

[sharpe1027]

I agree with that, but ALL teams younger players are at the same disadvantage, so we can't put that forward as an excuse.

Yes, they all have the disadvantage, but it is not necessarily the same. The Packer's may have suffered more than most because they had less time to recover before the lockout prevented contact between players and their teams. The critical time then was right before the lockout began because after that point they were not supposed to interact. That meant the Packers had less time for the coaches to evaluate the previous season and develop an off-season plan for the players. Just a thought.

[Smidgeon]

Much as I'd hate to see him go, I almost hope Bennett gets that job. He's put in his time, worked his way through the ranks, and that's the next logical step for him - seems like he deserves it.
Greene as a DC seems like quite a jump though. How much coaching did he have before GB? I'm pretty sure it's his first job. He's the OLB coach here, doesn't seem like he'd get much overall insight into what it takes to run the whole defense.

I think Bennett would be a stretch for a promotion. Maybe lateral. But he just took the WR position to expand his resume. I think he'll need a couple more years before he's OC material...

[Bretsky]

We only have 2 legit NFL calibur DL... hard to run any scheme when you can't field even average players.

If we make it to the SB and have to play NE?? It will be the first NFL game ever where over 150 pts are scored, lol.


What Wist said
However you want to spin it, we have Raji, Pickett and a bunch of J.A.G.'s now that we need to play better.
I'm not sure we even have a J.A.G. at OLB oppisite Clay. We're starting Jones tomorrow and I'm having Arizona Nightmares

[Bretsky]

I don't feel like Cullen Jenkins made that that much difference in the pass rush. Hell, the guy didn't even play that much during the playoff run, did he? So why else might the defense have been so much better last year? Were teams not doubling Clay as much? Collins's injury?

What the hell happened?


He was one more guy somebody had to focus on. He got occasional push and his pass rush opened up for others to excel.

[pbmax]

I would be happy if off coverage meant giving up 5-10 yard routes regularly. But with no pressure, those play are hemorrhaging into 20+ yard plays. There are times on 3 and 10 you want to entice a 5 yard pass to the middle or the flat. Add bad tackling and how many times have you seen that preferred short pass go for a first down?

That same lack of pressure also encourages less man to man outside, even putting aside injury adjustments. If the QB get 5+ seconds, its going long. But I still think down and distance (and run game trouble) play the biggest role.

Back to smeefers/Tar on the lockout, those players workouts did not have a lot of hitting and so the value added to your defense and run game would be limited no matter how intense they were in the classroom/walkthoughs.

But one effect the lockout might have had is giving even more of an advantage to the offense. I would bet after this year that the basketball offense we have seen is easier to put together on short work than good, tough, physical, well-tackling defense. I think defenses across the board have suffered versus offense.

[Old School]

When I watch the defense try to tackle, I get confused. Straighten me out if I'm wrong, but this is my take.

There seems to be an over emphasis on stripping the ball. Isn't the first order of business to tackle the ball carrier to the ground? So the attempt to dislodge the ball fails and the defender is now high on the ball carrier. Even WR's are very strong in the upper body, so they can fight off or drag along the defender for extra yardage.

I don't care how strong anyone is; nonbody can run with his knees or ankles held together. Am I mossing something?

[Tarlam!]

I would bet after this year that the basketball offense we have seen is easier to put together on short work than good, tough, physical, well-tackling defense. I think defenses across the board have suffered versus offense.

M3 has oftentimes remarked that it is a product of the reduced practices in pads (new CBA). He's never said anything about the lockout that I recall. I would have thought the missing QB school would have impacted Flynn, hahaha!

[pbmax]

M3 has oftentimes remarked that it is a product of the reduced practices in pads (new CBA). He's never said anything about the lockout that I recall. I would have thought the missing QB school would have impacted Flynn, hahaha!

Good point, though my impression was that hitting in season hasn't changed as much as it did during camp. McCarthy did not run too many 2 padded practices per week in prior years.

[mraynrand]

I would have thought the missing QB school would have impacted Flynn, hahaha!

The guy who actually suffered was Graham Harrell, but even he came around by the end of camp

[Pugger]

What Wist said
However you want to spin it, we have Raji, Pickett and a bunch of J.A.G.'s now that we need to play better.
I'm not sure we even have a J.A.G. at OLB oppisite Clay. We're starting Jones tomorrow and I'm having Arizona Nightmares

I'm with ya about our D line but Jones has to be better than Walden...

[Pugger]

When I watch the defense try to tackle, I get confused. Straighten me out if I'm wrong, but this is my take.

There seems to be an over emphasis on stripping the ball. Isn't the first order of business to tackle the ball carrier to the ground? So the attempt to dislodge the ball fails and the defender is now high on the ball carrier. Even WR's are very strong in the upper body, so they can fight off or drag along the defender for extra yardage.

I don't care how strong anyone is; nonbody can run with his knees or ankles held together. Am I mossing something?

I wonder if the guys do this because they are influenced by Woodson and his propensity to strip the ball? He is, after all, one of our team leaders. :cnf:

[pbmax]

Well, Walden was fine until the domestic disturbance. He had just the one hole in his game, contain, but since then he has sprung leaks everywhere. Either it got into head or teams decided to test him and found him lacking. I suspect some of the former, but mostly the latter. Once he started yielding big plays, he went into the tank in other facets. Jones isn't the long term answer, but he might put a cork in some of the leaks.

[Smidgeon]

Good point, though my impression was that hitting in season hasn't changed as much as it did during camp. McCarthy did not run too many 2 padded practices per week in prior years.

I thought McCarthy was on record of saying he had already planned on reducing padded practices partly because of all the injuries he had last year, and that the number this year was really just a natural progression of the league's direction. But I could be wrong.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Time for a lot of changes on D. Capers time should be up imo.

[hoosier]

Time for a lot of changes on D. Capers time should be up imo.

That's the kind of thinking that produces the Washington Redskins. What have made TT and MM such a good combination since 2008 is that they understand the value of continuity. Fans, on the other hand, only ask what have done for me lately.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

That's the kind of thinking that produces the Washington Redskins. What have made TT and MM such a good combination since 2008 is that they understand the value of continuity. Fans, on the other hand, only ask what have done for me lately.

I didn't say go and buy every free agent on the market. A lot of changes need to be made on D. Keep the 34 scheme, but Capers shouldn't be running it. Keep Raji, Pickett, Matthews, Bishop, Smith, Williams, Shields, Woodson, Collins, and Burnett. Shields and Williams took three steps back this year though. Draft defense defense defense.

[denverYooper]

Capers will be back unless he chooses to leave. They'll go shopping for him and give him at least one more chance to cook.

[King Friday]

Thing is...the defense didn't really lose this game for us. The last 15 seconds of the first half was a nightmare...but other than that the defense once again was bend but don't break.

3 (should've been 4) turnovers by the offense is what screwed the pooch...along with numerous drops and off target passes by Rodgers.

[Pugger]

Only 3? How come it seems like we had more turnovers? :-P

[denverYooper]

Packers had 14 turnovers in 16 games during the regular season.

[denverYooper]

Only 3? How come it seems like we had more turnovers? :-P

I thought it was 4. Kuhn, Grant, Rodgers fumble, Rodgers INT.