Packers Secondary

[HarveyWallbangers]

Here's some positivity. Good notes on the secondary--although they still ranked them below Cleveland. I threw the Vikings stats on here for RastaK--I had a feeling the Vikings secondary probably didn't great out nearly as well as most Purple Rubes would say. They were practically glowing about the play of Darren Sharper though.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5857124

12. Green Bay

Ask Al Harris if his shoulders are sore. They likely are — from carrying the Green Bay secondary last year. For most of the year, Green Bay was the best defense in the league against opposing number one receivers. In Week 4, for example, Harris kept Steve Smith to an absurd 12 yards on two catches. But his stats declined late in the year because he was so tired from being a one-man army.

To give Harris some help, GM Ted Thompson made a big splash in the free agent market, bringing the highly-touted, but sometimes underperforming Charles Woodson to Lambeau Field. Although not the superstar that he was a few years ago, Woodson should be a significant upgrade, and Ahmad Carroll should be better in the nickel role. The addition of Marquand Manuel helps an already decent safety core. The other starter, Nick Collins, ranked sixth out of 75 safeties by stopping 67 percent of passes during his rookie season.

15. Minnesota

The Vikings have a better secondary than they put on the field last year, and yet most of the starters remain the same. Cornerbacks Antoine Winfield and Fred Smoot both had sub-par years last year. Winfield ranked 73rd among 83 cornerbacks with a 46 percent Stop Rate, and was tied with Quentin Jammer for most touchdowns allowed. Is this the same man that previous Viking owners hired a private plane to steal away from the New York Jets? Smoot was better, but far from the caliber of player who signs a six-year, $36 million contract. Smoot's Stop Rate of 48 percent ranked him an expensive 65th.

On the other hand, Darren Sharper was everything the Vikings could have asked for. Sharper provided excellent cover skills as well as good run stopping ability. His nine picks ranked him second only to Deltha O'Neal and Ty Law, and there were no touchdowns where game charters listed him as the defender in coverage. Safety Tank Williams was supposed to play opposite Sharper, but a broken kneecap will cost him the season; Dwight Smith, waived by New Orleans, will replace him. Like Williams, Smith is strong against the run, weak in pass coverage. The Vikings drafted hard-hitting Cedric Griffin in the second round. He played both cornerback and safety at Texas and adds versatility.

[wist43]

Minnesota's front seven will make their secondary look good.

Green Bay's front seven can't generate enough pressure to help the secondary. They can't cover forever.

Edge to Minnesota b/c their front seven is so much better than Green Bay's.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Edge to Green Bay b/c their front seven is so much better than Green Bay's. :mrgreen:

[RashanGary]

I think Kamp and KGB will get decent pressure. I think they'll have a blitz package with Poppinga too.

[]{ilr]3]

I think Kamp and KGB will get decent pressure. I think they'll have a blitz package with Poppinga too.

I agree with ol' GregJennings! The defense may not start out great but I think by the end of the season we will have the beggings of something GREAT! And I am looking forward to it.

My main hope is that that Barnett has a great year and they pay him like it. Yes I would like to see Hodge excel and take over in the middle and Barnett could use his speed on the outside. There are alot of options. Hell even trading him for anouther Player would be a great deal if they cannot come to terms next year.

:wink: Oh, BTW there Greg. Thanks for signing me and my daughters hats at Family Night! :wink:

[wist43]

I think Kamp and KGB will get decent pressure. I think they'll have a blitz package with Poppinga too.

GJ,

I've got history on my side for this argument... KGB and Kampman get sacks sporadically, and over time have proven that they can't provide consistent pressure.

They flash occasional pressure... but, it's never consistently disruptive. KGB will get the corner once or twice per game, and then nothing much else; and, Kampman will clean up on the occassional coverage sack. Together, they're just not consistent enough.

KGB would be more effective if his work load were reduced on early downs; but, coaching staff after coaching staff talk about it, but ultimately never make the move. Kampman would be more effective with more stunts and blitzes on his side, but the coaching staff doesn't seem inclined to do that either.

So, some of their ineffectiveness is self inflicted, IMO.

[Joemailman]

I think the addition of Woodson will mean more blitzing from the DB's this year. Woodson is lining up in the slot in the nickel package, which puts him in a position to blitz. Also, having 2 shut-down corners should free up the safeties to occasionally blitz. I also have hopes that Hawk and Poppinga will also be able to apply pressure from the LB position.

[4and12to12and4]

You know, I watched alot of plays in that SD game keying in on KGB. The reason I did this is because it kind of floored me that the left tackle bit on his move when he ran almost untouched to the QB. I was suprised to see that he actually moved his guy back quite a bit, and he seemed alot stronger than I gave him credit for. Also, he bullrushed alot straight into the tackle, and that is why the tackle bit on the outside rush. KGB started to run straight at him, put his hands up as if to push him backwards, and then just as the tackle got his weight forward, he just ran right around him. But, he gave alot more pressure alot more consistently than he gets credit for. There are very few players that can give constant pressure aka reggie and LT. I think we take him for granted.

[Doe]

I think its going to come down to Manual's health. If he can't get over his injury or can't stay healthy, we will be in trouble. I think we got the comeback player of the year when we signed Woodson. He flashed some quickness that I haven't seen out of a Packer's corner since Craig Newsome. He also seems to be responding well to the coaching.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I've got history on my side for this argument... KGB and Kampman get sacks sporadically, and over time have proven that they can't provide consistent pressure.

You've got history? Then tell me what history Kenechi Udeze and Erasmus James have?

[HarveyWallbangers]

You know, I watched alot of plays in that SD game keying in on KGB. The reason I did this is because it kind of floored me that the left tackle bit on his move when he ran almost untouched to the QB. I was suprised to see that he actually moved his guy back quite a bit, and he seemed alot stronger than I gave him credit for. Also, he bullrushed alot straight into the tackle, and that is why the tackle bit on the outside rush. KGB started to run straight at him, put his hands up as if to push him backwards, and then just as the tackle got his weight forward, he just ran right around him. But, he gave alot more pressure alot more consistently than he gets credit for. There are very few players that can give constant pressure aka reggie and LT. I think we take him for granted.

Good observation. It's a joke that people say he only has one move. You don't average 10+ sacks/year with one move. Otherwise, Jamal Reynolds might still be in the NFL.

[woodbuck27]

You know, I watched alot of plays in that SD game keying in on KGB. The reason I did this is because it kind of floored me that the left tackle bit on his move when he ran almost untouched to the QB. I was suprised to see that he actually moved his guy back quite a bit, and he seemed alot stronger than I gave him credit for. Also, he bullrushed alot straight into the tackle, and that is why the tackle bit on the outside rush. KGB started to run straight at him, put his hands up as if to push him backwards, and then just as the tackle got his weight forward, he just ran right around him. But, he gave alot more pressure alot more consistently than he gets credit for. There are very few players that can give constant pressure aka reggie and LT. I think we take him for granted.

KGB should be somewhat stronger physically as he worked hard on that ie the weight room since way back when that program began. I don't discount KGB.

[Patler]

Minnesota's front seven will make their secondary look good.

Green Bay's front seven can't generate enough pressure to help the secondary. They can't cover forever.

Edge to Minnesota b/c their front seven is so much better than Green Bay's.

Huh?? Where are the Vikings getting all the pressure from? In 2005:

The Vikings had 34 sacks on 533 opponent passing attempts
The Packers had 35 sacks on 430 opponent passing attempts.

In 103 fewer opportunities, the Packers had 1 more sack than the Vikings had last year.

Maybe if their DEs come around this year the Vikings might generate pressure, but they didn't get much pressure last year from anyone in their front seven on any consistent basis.

[wist43]

Here's a question for you homers - which DL, across the board, would you rather have, Minnesota's or Green Bay's???

Any rational person would, or course, take Minnesota's... it isn't even close. The biggest defensive stat is turnovers, Minnesota forced 35, Green Bay "forced" 21 - I use the term "forced" disparagingly wrt the Packers b/c, on defense, they don't "force" an offense to do anything.

Minnesota's DL is immeasurably more talented than Green Bay's and generates pressure on a much more consistent basis... Not necessarily b/c Minnesota's DL are the "Purple People Eaters" reincarnated, but b/c Green Bay's DL is well below average - especially at DE.

Many of Green Bay's sacks come against very inferior T's, and other than the occasional clean sack, i.e. KGB getting the corner, there is no pressure. QB's are allowed to operate unhurried and unmolested in the pocket the vast majority of the time.

[Rastak]

I've got history on my side for this argument... KGB and Kampman get sacks sporadically, and over time have proven that they can't provide consistent pressure.

You've got history? Then tell me what history Kenechi Udeze and Erasmus James have?


Monday night? It's just a start but I thought they looked pretty solid. Brooks was running for his life.

[wist43]

Rastak, I agree... Minnesota's DL is much better than Green Bay's.

[woodbuck27]

Here's a question for you homers - which DL, across the board, would you rather have, Minnesota's or Green Bay's???

Any rational person would, or course, take Minnesota's... it isn't even close. The biggest defensive stat is turnovers, Minnesota forced 35, Green Bay "forced" 21 - I use the term "forced" disparagingly wrt the Packers b/c, on defense, they don't "force" an offense to do anything.

Minnesota's DL is immeasurably more talented than Green Bay's and generates pressure on a much more consistent basis... Not necessarily b/c Minnesota's DL are the "Purple People Eaters" reincarnated, but b/c Green Bay's DL is well below average - especially at DE.

Many of Green Bay's sacks come against very inferior T's, and other than the occasional clean sack, i.e. KGB getting the corner, there is no pressure. QB's are allowed to operate unhurried and unmolested in the pocket the vast majority of the time.

Yes wist43 we certainly look forward to that Animal DE sacker that = intimidation at the focus or origin of the pass.

Till we see that man in OUR lineup we will just take any sack - any way it materializes, from any player on OUR side in the near future.

This season. :mrgreen:

Our turnover ratio, must improve in 2006, for any chance of a decent season.

GO Packers ! HOLD FAITH - in and throughout - 2006 !!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rastak, I agree... Minnesota's DL is much better than Green Bay's.

I wasn't talking about DL. I was talking about DEs. Jennings/Collins said something about Kampman/KGB, and how he thought they were solid. Then, you went on a rant about how shitty those two are.

Until I see otherwise, I'll take them over James and Udeze. Udeze has been injured and shitty in the pros, and injury prone in college. He may break out, or he may just get injured again. James has good potential, but he was also injury prone in college.

KGB would get 15 sacks/year playing next to Williams & Williams.

[Rastak]

Rastak, I agree... Minnesota's DL is much better than Green Bay's.

I wasn't talking about DL. I was talking about DEs. Jennings/Collins said something about Kampman/KGB, and how he thought they were solid. Then, you went on a rant about how shitty those two are.

Until I see otherwise, I'll take them over James and Udeze. Udeze has been injured and shitty in the pros, and injury prone in college. He may break out, or he may just get injured again. James has good potential, but he was also injury prone in college.

KGB would get 15 sacks/year playing next to Williams & Williams.


Actually Udeze and James did combine on a sack Monday night. Udeze hasn't been shitty but he has been injured and hasn't showed me much to date...I'll agree with that. He's looked good in camp since he lost 20 pounds in the off season but I need to see it in real games before I'll be impressed. As for James, he looked okay at the end of the year, I have high hopes for him. I'll agree they are NOT a proven tandum...yet.

[Chester Marcol]

Unfortunately the Packers have history on their side as well. If you really expect this year's pass rush to be any better than last year, just like the saying goes, we are doomed to repeat history. It will be another year of leading the league in 3rd down conversions allowed. The only way our linebackers help us in pass rush is if we switch to 3-4 where they are counted on to bring pressure. In my oponion, one above average DE would help our defense more than any of our additions. Disagree all ya want, but history(same DE's) shows that we will not have a defense that can get off the field. The only thing blitzing does for us is make sure there's a man open to catch a 3rd down conversion.

Cornerbacks can't cover forever. I think we have 2 of the better CB's that can over any route. It's just when the QB has 5+ seconds when the play breaks down, I think our CB's will lose that advantage. Only next offseason's history will tell, but I think we've already seen this defense and know exactly what to expect.

[Packnut]

The majority of teams in the NFL do not have a real strong rush with their front 4. The key is to devise blitz packages that confuse the offense. No one does that better than the guy in Philly. Our hopes rest on our LB's being used in the right blitz scheme. Barnett sucks at blitzing so it's up to Hawk and whoever starts on the other side.

[Chester Marcol]

The majority of teams aren't in the playoffs every year either. Philly also has the freak, who I would consider above average, manning one of their ends. We've already proven blitzing doesn't work when the line can't get a push.

[ahaha]

This defensive line could definately be better this year with the pass rush. The key is to shut down the run on early downs. It makes a tremendous difference if you're facing consistent 3rd and 8 compared to 3rd and 4. This D-Line isn't as bad at rushing the passer as some on here would have you believe. How many teams in the NFL have lines that continually harass the quarterback? Not many. If they can improve on run defense, and the linebackers/safeties cover the tight end(our biggest weakness last year in pass defense), then this defense will be pretty good.

[Partial]

The majority of teams aren't in the playoffs every year either. Philly also has the freak, who I would consider above average, manning one of their ends. We've already proven blitzing doesn't work when the line can't get a push.

Kearse is a very good end, and now they have Howard with him. We'd be a fine blitzing team if we had hitters instead of finesse players. I predict Hodge is an animal on the blitz despite his short stature. I am convinced its attitude than attributes

[woodbuck27]

This defensive line could definately be better this year with the pass rush. The key is to shut down the run on early downs. It makes a tremendous difference if you're facing consistent 3rd and 8 compared to 3rd and 4. This D-Line isn't as bad at rushing the passer as some on here would have you believe. How many teams in the NFL have lines that continually harass the quarterback? Not many. If they can improve on run defense, and the linebackers/safeties cover the tight end(our biggest weakness last year in pass defense), then this defense will be pretty good.

That's for sure ahaha. Bring that on !!

GO PACKERS ! HOLD FAITH PACKER FANS !!

[pbmax]

I've got history on my side for this argument... KGB and Kampman get sacks sporadically, and over time have proven that they can't provide consistent pressure.

You've got history? Then tell me what history Kenechi Udeze and Erasmus James have?
The history of KGB disappearing against good tackles, and having multiple sack games aginst poor or slow tackles.
The history of Kampman not compiling double-digit sacks.

The history of both Williams at tackle in Minnesota being better than the GB DTs. Guys get older and injuries happen, but Minn gets the edge here. EJ and Udeze get better by proximity and youth/upside.

Even if the DE argument is tilted toward GB, the DTs make Minnesota tougher.

[pbmax]

Minnesota's front seven will make their secondary look good.

Green Bay's front seven can't generate enough pressure to help the secondary. They can't cover forever.

Edge to Minnesota b/c their front seven is so much better than Green Bay's.

Huh?? Where are the Vikings getting all the pressure from? In 2005:

The Vikings had 34 sacks on 533 opponent passing attempts
The Packers had 35 sacks on 430 opponent passing attempts.

In 103 fewer opportunities, the Packers had 1 more sack than the Vikings had last year.

Maybe if their DEs come around this year the Vikings might generate pressure, but they didn't get much pressure last year from anyone in their front seven on any consistent basis.
Got any stats for hurries, flushes or knockdowns Patler?

Becasue the Vikings managed, despite the minimal sacks, to hold opposing QBs to a 75.2 QB rating while the Packers were at 86.2. And thats with 10 common opponents I believe.