Blow it up

[red]

good god, where do you even begin this offseason

gut the d. its been pathetic all year. time for dom to go. we didn't see one fucking adjustment from him all year. this squad looked just as lost and pathetic today as it did in week one

1. get rid of the zombo, walden, jones train wreck at OLB. those guys are all equally worthless. get a real nfl player there.

2. t-will is not a #1 cb. sorry, but he was a major liability all year

3. if woodson doesn't retire you have to find a real position to use him in. last year he was everywhere. this year he was almost nowhere. not blitzing, no lockdown coverage, no hybrid LB, no hybrid cb. what the hell was his role this year? it sure as hell wasn't the same as its been the last few years. his talents were completely wasted this year

4. we need to not fall in love with the 3-4 if dom goes. we don't exactly have the right personal for the 3-4 either. we have 2 decent d-linemen, both would be good DT's, and we only have 1 good rushing OLB. no reason to stick with the 3-4 when we don't have the talent or smarts to pull it off

5. go back to building a team with smart players. how many times this year have we seen guys looking at each other trying to figure out what they should be doing or where to line up

6. hawk is expendable. he got his payday, then his play slipped way off

7. find another stud safety. if nick can play agin, then you have two great safeties. send burnett to the bench, he's been nothing special.

on the other side of the ball. let finely go. he's a big talker, but this year has been a massive let down from him. his mind was somewhere else this year. his mind was on getting his big contract. i think you're looking at a hanesworth type of player who would get paid, then just go through the motions

this team needs to get some attitude and some other players besides rodgers need to start to show some heart on the field

on another note. we probably just watched the end of three great careers tonight. clifton and driver are probably done. and it wouldn't shock me if this was woodsons last game either

[denverYooper]

I actually thought Burnett had an ok game today.

[ND72]

Here's my initial reaction,t hen I'll think and talk more later.

1. BYE BYE FINLEY

2. Get a real HB and actually run the ball

3. Get some quality DL players in, cut Wynn Wilson and Neal

4. Get a real OLB that could rush the passer or do anything except use oxygen I could use.

5. Depth at DB, cause Lee, Bush, Peprah and any other dipshit we put back there deep throat everyone.

6. Cut Clifton

7. Cut Kuhn

[denverYooper]

Curious about Cliffy and Drive. Wood will be back.

[Bossman641]

Overreaction

1. 3-4 is easier to draft for than 4-3
2. I'm 99% sure Tramon injury has been hurting him all year
3. Too young to give up on Burnett

[mission]

Tramon Williams is a nickel back. Y'all might not agree but Shields is better.

Blow it up. I'm drunk, let's do it. I don't want to see a single offensive player attained outside of maybe an RB and TE.

[Joemailman]

I don't see Driver retiring. Still a pretty good possession guy. He won't want to go out like this.

[red]

Overreaction

1. 3-4 is easier to draft for than 4-3
2. I'm 99% sure Tramon injury has been hurting him all year
3. Too young to give up on Burnett

3-4 WAS easier to draft for. now like half the teams in the nfl run the 3-4. so they're all going for those same players

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bring back the offense and special teams. Overhaul on the defense, but not the scheme. We need a DL (can't assume Mike Neal will be healthy), ROLB, CB, and S (assuming Collins is done). We'll be in the running again next year. It's not easy to win the Super Bowl two years in a row. Disappointing, but I was actually a bit surprised we followed up a Super bowl victory with a 15-1 record. It is what it is.

[Deputy Nutz]

Get rid of the QB, guy can't make a play.

[MJZiggy]

Overreaction

1. 3-4 is easier to draft for than 4-3
2. I'm 99% sure Tramon injury has been hurting him all year
3. Too young to give up on Burnett
This.

[red]

one good thing is that we will now be drafting no worse than 28th in the draft

[hoosier]

This was a prime example of shitty execution by a team that executed to a tee all year long. Something was clearly off today, which might have been a consequence of the layoff or the emotional drain associated with Philbin's son. I kind of expected them to come out all fired up, and then was puzzled to hear Troy Buck say they found Rodgers and Co to be subdued when the met during the week. The Giants played a great game, but the parade of drops just killed the continuity on offense. It was as debilitating as the sack parade at the start of the '09 season.

[Brandon494]

Here's my initial reaction,t hen I'll think and talk more later.

1. BYE BYE FINLEY

2. Get a real HB and actually run the ball

3. Get some quality DL players in, cut Wynn Wilson and Neal

4. Get a real OLB that could rush the passer or do anything except use oxygen I could use.

5. Depth at DB, cause Lee, Bush, Peprah and any other dipshit we put back there deep throat everyone.

6. Cut Clifton

7. Cut Kuhn

Thank god you don't make any decisions to this team.

[Brando19]

Get rid of the QB, guy can't make a play.

Unreal.

[Brandon494]

We lost 2 games all season, no need to blow anything up but we do need to make a few moves.

On offense we need to let Grant go and find a speed back that can catch out of the backfield

On defense we need to add a pass rushing OLB opposite of Clay Matthews, a play making safety if Collins doesn't come back, and D-line help.

[Pugger]

I actually thought Burnett had an ok game today. Me too.

[Pugger]

This was a prime example of shitty execution by a team that executed to a tee all year long. Something was clearly off today, which might have been a consequence of the layoff or the emotional drain associated with Philbin's son. I kind of expected them to come out all fired up, and then was puzzled to hear Troy Buck say they found Rodgers and Co to be subdued when the met during the week. The Giants played a great game, but the parade of drops just killed the continuity on offense. It was as debilitating as the sack parade at the start of the '09 season.

I'm thinking they were emotionally drained - but they'll never admit it. There can be no other plausible explanation for an offense this explosive to look this listless and unfocused. You drop balls and fumble when you aren't focused.

[Joemailman]

TT hasn't used anything higher than a 7th round pick at OLB since drafting Matthews 1st round. That needs to change. The talent level just isn't there opposite Matthews.

[MJZiggy]

TT hasn't used anything higher than a 7th round pick at OLB since drafting Matthews 1st round. That needs to change. The talent level just isn't there opposite Matthews.

Did he need to draft higher considering the personnel we had at the time? I still think if Collins were healthy we'd have had a better performance.

[Packers4Glory]

draft defense and then draft some more defense.

[Pugger]

We lost 2 games all season, no need to blow anything up but we do need to make a few moves.

On offense we need to let Grant go and find a speed back that can catch out of the backfield

On defense we need to add a pass rushing OLB opposite of Clay Matthews, a play making safety if Collins doesn't come back, and D-line help.

This.

Eli had all day just like almost every other QB we faced this year. Until this situation is fixed - plus it was evident the DBs were having communication issues yet again! - another championship ain't in the cards. You can't let QBs just sit there like that and expect your DBs to cover people.

[pittstang5]

We lost 2 games all season, no need to blow anything up but we do need to make a few moves.

On offense we need to let Grant go and find a speed back that can catch out of the backfield

On defense we need to add a pass rushing OLB opposite of Clay Matthews, a play making safety if Collins doesn't come back, and D-line help.

We may have the speed back that can catch already. Green - he just got hurt and wasn't able to get on the field. The rest of your assessment is spot on.

We need to pressure the QB, plain and simple. If getting DL or another OLB does that - i don't care which, make it so.

[ND72]

Thank god you don't make any decisions to this team.

And what would you change? Oter than Raji and Pickett, talent is below average on DL. oLb other than Matthews is a joke. Finley is so overrated it's a joke. I'd offer him veteran minimum with possible bonuses if he can catch a ball. Clifton needs to go, his body is just done. Kuhn...seriously? Wisconsin voted him into pro bowl, he doesn't do anything. If you argue that, seriously watch a game. DB talent after Woodson, Williams, Shields, Burnett, Collins is yuck. And seriously, wanna know why we can't win a home playoff game? Lack of talent at HB and lack of willing to run the ball. We need a top end talent at HB. So seriously, what did I mistakenly say?

[Pugger]

Speaking of Kuhn, anybody here an update on him?

[Packers4Glory]

you don't need top end talent at HB. we proved that last yr.

what we need is help on D. DL, OLB, and S.

[King Friday]

Someone really needs to tell McCarthy that our offense is NOT ideal for January in Green Bay.

[Joemailman]

Did he need to draft higher considering the personnel we had at the time? I still think if Collins were healthy we'd have had a better performance.

I wasn't really criticizing past picks. We can't assume that Collins will be back, and we may not find anyone as good as him in the future. Improving the pass rush will be a must.

[digitaldean]

Here's my initial reaction,t hen I'll think and talk more later.

1. BYE BYE FINLEY

2. Get a real HB and actually run the ball

3. Get some quality DL players in, cut Wynn Wilson and Neal

4. Get a real OLB that could rush the passer or do anything except use oxygen I could use.

5. Depth at DB, cause Lee, Bush, Peprah and any other dipshit we put back there deep throat everyone.

6. Cut Clifton

7. Cut Kuhn

Agree with all but #7. Kuhn was OK back this year. Clifton was a liability today. Finley does NOT deserve his payday. His piss poor performance and the amount of drops do not equate to upper echelon talent.

The pass rush was PA-THE-TIC. I don't get the constant zone schemes when the Giants were finding the soft spots most of the game.

The D had no pass rush and played too soft. The loss of Collins hurt, but it was no excuse for the sloppy play.

PISS POOR Fundamentals. Lousy tackling, the amount of drops and lack of ball control was far from championship caliber.

Say what you want about Driver, but he was one of the few guys who caught the tough passes today. Jennings, Finley, Starks, Crabtree all had drops that killed drives. Rodgers wasn't as sharp with the 2 overthrows, but his runs were the only thing that kept this game from being an even worse defeat.

[Pugger]

Someone really needs to tell McCarthy that our offense is NOT ideal for January in Green Bay.

Nonsense. Eli had no problems passing and neither did Flynn 2 weeks ago.

[Pugger]

Agree with all but #7. Kuhn was OK back this year. Clifton was a liability today. Finley does NOT deserve his payday. His piss poor performance and the amount of drops do not equate to upper echelon talent.

The pass rush was PA-THE-TIC. I don't get the constant zone schemes when the Giants were finding the soft spots most of the game.

The D had no pass rush and played too soft. The loss of Collins hurt, but it was no excuse for the sloppy play.

PISS POOR Fundamentals. Lousy tackling, the amount of drops and lack of ball control was far from championship caliber.

Say what you want about Driver, but he was one of the few guys who caught the tough passes today. Jennings, Finley, Starks, Crabtree all had drops that killed drives. Rodgers wasn't as sharp with the 2 overthrows, but his runs were the only thing that kept this game from being an even worse defeat.

Yes, pass rush, or lack thereof, has been an issue all season, even before Collins went down. Losing Collins' leadership back there has really hurt, tho. Even tonight it looked like there was still confusion back there.

[hoosier]

Someone really needs to tell McCarthy that our offense is NOT ideal for January in Green Bay.

The weather did not cause those drops, fumbles and missed open receivers. The Packers picked a horrible week to lay an egg, but that is what happened. It could have happened in September and it would have been forgotten a month later. This one will stick with them a lot longer, but the loss had nothing to do with their inability to run the ball.

[Bretsky]

We need to resing Wells but not break the bank on this
We need to resign Finley but not break the bank there either
We need to find a guy who had a rookie season like Brooks Reed
We need to find another CB and another DL who are more than J.A.G.S.
We could really use a change of pace back who is a receiving threat
Guys like Wynn, Wilson, and a lot of OLB's on this squad are perfect last players at that position guys. We have too many of those

[Freak Out]

Cobb should be better next year along with all the other WRs/Fin minus DD. Grant and Starks can both go by bye after this game for all I care. :) We need help all over the D as others have stated. The TOs killed the Packers today. Grant looked ok when he wasn't fumbling....Starks still seems to be a liability in pass pro. Hard to win them all......KC was the wake up call but the giant still took a nap.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

- Finley is not as good as I thought he was going to be after the cards playoff game. Good player but not even close to being great. He catches every other pass.
- Wells needs to stay....hopefully at a decent price.
- Collins is three times the player Burnett or Peprah are.
- Hawk sucks and should be cut. Makes no plays what so ever.
- Woodson is getting old and slow so who the hell knows what to do with him.
- Matthews was not nearly as dominate this season.
- Williams???? what the hell happened?? I really thought for sure he was elite, but I as wrong.
- Shields? who the hell knows.....
- DL needs at least two more playmakers.
- We need a better running game. Grant is trash.

[denverYooper]

We need to resing Wells but not break the bank on this
We need to resign Finley but not break the bank there either
We need to find a guy who had a rookie season like Brooks Reed
We need to find another CB and another DL who are more than J.A.G.S.
We could really use a change of pace back who is a receiving threat
Guys like Wynn, Wilson, and a lot of OLB's on this squad are perfect last players at that position guys. We have too many of those

Wells might be one of the best players on the team and is there every week. They shouldn't break the bank on him but they should make him a priority re-sign.

[denverYooper]

Burnett will be a solid Safety if he can stay on the field for another year. If Collins isn't back, though, they need to think hard about finding a second one.

[ND72]

Now that my anger has passed, there is a simple fact...we are like a basketball team...if you are gonna live by thev3, then Younkle by the 3. Teams that are passing teams will have struggles due to drops....unfortunately our bad day came when it mattered. We have a good foundation...but we NEED a talent upgrade on the DL, OLB, and DB depth. If we can strengthen those areas the rest is gravy. I said it last year draft time, we need a JJ Watt on the DL, and we still do. I don't get the bagging on Burnett, thought he has been ok, but peprah, lee, bush are trash...along with Wynn nd Wilson on the DL.

[Joemailman]

Burnett will be a solid Safety if he can stay on the field for another year. If Collins isn't back, though, they need to think hard about finding a second one.

They need another safety even if Collins is back. Peprah should be your 4th safety/ST guy.

[ND72]

Burnett will be a solid Safety if he can stay on the field for another year. If Collins isn't back, though, they need to think hard about finding a second one.
If Collins doesn't come back....FML

[Packers4Glory]

Woodson still had a pretty darn good yr. problem is Williams and Shields struggled in front of our safeties. and they all struggled because we couldn't generate any pass rush up front. Mathews had zero help and got double teamed all yr.

[esoxx]

Speaking of Kuhn, anybody here an update on him?

He's still slow and top-heavy the last I heard.

[ND72]

Woodson still had a pretty darn good yr. problem is Williams and Shields struggled in front of our safeties. and they all struggled because we couldn't generate any pass rush up front. Mathews had zero help and got double teamed all yr.

YES.

[Deputy Nutz]

So I hear you all, I think the biggest issue that you have all pointed out is the defensive front seven and the lack of pressure applied to the QB of the opposing team.

The defense is a mess, the scheme fell apart and became predictable especially if you don't have the talent to straight up beat the guy in front of you on a regular basis, and not one defensive player showed capable of doing that this year. Mathews got stoned more times this year when tackles took him one on one than the year before. Opponents recognized Woodson blitzing out of the slot, they recognized the cross blitz by the middle linebackers and the inside twist with Mathews and Bishop. You can only bring guys from so many places and teams figured it out from last year. It comes down to just kicking ass and there were too few ass kickers on this defense. With Collins out the defense has two total play makers in Woodson and Mathews.

Woodson also missed far too many tackles this season, especially on running backs.

[mmmdk]

draft defense and then draft some more defense.

I agree! Man, it sucks to acknowledge that packers need to retool (already) one year after a SB win & a season where it is now evident that Aaron Rodgers pretty much carried us to a 15-1 regular season record plus 0-1 in POs. Without AR we're not that far from being the Colts sans P.Manning.

[Deputy Nutz]

Packers don't need to retool, they need an outside linebacker that can get after the passer, they need a defensive end that isn't just a run stuffer, and they need some more able bodies in the secondary. People can bitch about Hawk and he had a down season, but there are more pressing positions to address than disrupting the defense and removing Hawk. Hawk and Bishop were very active in tonight's game and with an actual NFL caliber outside linebacker and defensive end coming into the mix, I expect the play of Hawk and Bishop to improve.

Find suitable replacements for underachieving/zero potential players like Pat Lee, Jarrett Bush, Erik Walden, Frank Zambo, and Charlie Peprah....

[Pugger]

I agree! Man, it sucks to acknowledge that packers need to retool (already) one year after a SB win & a season where it is now evident that Aaron Rodgers pretty much carried us to a 15-1 regular season record plus 0-1 in POs. Without AR we're not that far from being the Colts sans P.Manning.

I think that is a tad exaggeration. Mr. Flynn proved we can win without Mr. Rodgers. Unfortunately for us, Rodgers and the offense picked a horrible time to lay another egg and our defense couldn't cover that up. We did what the Saints did yesterday. You cannot turn the ball over in the playoffs and expect to win.

[mmmdk]

Packers don't need to retool, they need an outside linebacker that can get after the passer, they need a defensive end that isn't just a run stuffer, and they need some more able bodies in the secondary. People can bitch about Hawk and he had a down season, but there are more pressing positions to address than disrupting the defense and removing Hawk. Hawk and Bishop were very active in tonight's game and with an actual NFL caliber outside linebacker and defensive end coming into the mix, I expect the play of Hawk and Bishop to improve.

Find suitable replacements for underachieving/zero potential players like Pat Lee, Jarrett Bush, Erik Walden, Frank Zambo, and Charlie Peprah....

Won't cut it, dude! More will need to go; watch TT at works as it happens in the 2012 offseason! Retooling through draft and, dare I say it, there will be signed a pair of free agents.

My beef is with the defense, O-line and let's get a real RB.

[mmmdk]

I think that is a tad exaggeration. Mr. Flynn proved we can win without Mr. Rodgers. Unfortunately for us, Rodgers and the offense picked a horrible time to lay another egg and our defense couldn't cover that up. We did what the Saints did yesterday. You cannot turn the ball over in the playoffs and expect to win.

With AR in Indy during 2011-12 season...I think they go 12-4, maybe even more wins. He's that good!

[denverYooper]

Won't cut it, dude! More will need to go; watch TT at works as it happens in the 2012 offseason! Retooling through draft and, dare I say it, there will be signed a pair of free agents.

My beef is with the defense, O-line and let's get a real RB.

With the way the OL played tonight, the Packers should have put up 50.

[Harlan Huckleby]

15-1. Second youngest team in nfl, if memory serves. This is not a demolition job, but they do need to draft D

[Pugger]

With the way the OL played tonight, the Packers should have put up 50.

Me too. I don't know about 50 but the protection only got ugly when we got behind in the second half and the gnats could pin their ears back.

[Packers4Glory]

I agree! Man, it sucks to acknowledge that packers need to retool (already) one year after a SB win & a season where it is now evident that Aaron Rodgers pretty much carried us to a 15-1 regular season record plus 0-1 in POs. Without AR we're not that far from being the Colts sans P.Manning.

I don't think they need to retool. They have to find another pass rusher. They have to find a guy opposite of Mathews who isn't a street FA logging big minutes each week. Pickett isn't getting younger. Raji needs help up front.

They also need to get another safety in the likely event Collins is done. I haven't read much since he had surgery, but even if he's back what are the odds he's 75% of what he was? But aside from that they need a guy back there who knows the defense and can get the DB's in order. There was so much confusion back there this yr it was unreal. Guys blowing assignments all yr.


THe offense is pretty well stocked. You drafted Cliffy's replacement last yr. Newhouse will have a whole offseason of work as well. There just really isn't much need on offense, other than finding more O-line depth which I think you can do outside the draft.

The Draft needs to be defense heavy. Bring guys in all over. create some competition because a lot of these guys seemed to take their starting roles for granted and dropped off pretty badly. Bring in a bunch of draftees and that will wake them up if its possible.

Maybe its time to move Woodson to safety if Collins isn't back and you groom another young safety? IDK. Williams and shields need some push as well.

the entire defense needs a kick in the ass this offseason because you just don't win a SB w/ a 32nd ranked defense.

[Packers4Glory]

I don't really wanna hear any more BS about a "real RB". Grant finsished the yr looking like the Grant of old. However this yr MM didn't stick the run because of all the weapons he had at receiver. Plus guys like Grant were guys who got better w/ more carries. But MM was determined to split carries and neither guy ever really got a chance to get into any sort of groove.

[mmmdk]

I don't think they need to retool. They have to find another pass rusher. They have to find a guy opposite of Mathews who isn't a street FA logging big minutes each week. Pickett isn't getting younger. Raji needs help up front.

They also need to get another safety in the likely event Collins is done. I haven't read much since he had surgery, but even if he's back what are the odds he's 75% of what he was? But aside from that they need a guy back there who knows the defense and can get the DB's in order. There was so much confusion back there this yr it was unreal. Guys blowing assignments all yr.


THe offense is pretty well stocked. You drafted Cliffy's replacement last yr. Newhouse will have a whole offseason of work as well. There just really isn't much need on offense, other than finding more O-line depth which I think you can do outside the draft.

The Draft needs to be defense heavy. Bring guys in all over. create some competition because a lot of these guys seemed to take their starting roles for granted and dropped off pretty badly. Bring in a bunch of draftees and that will wake them up if its possible.

Maybe its time to move Woodson to safety if Collins isn't back and you groom another young safety? IDK. Williams and shields need some push as well.

the entire defense needs a kick in the ass this offseason because you just don't win a SB w/ a 32nd ranked defense.

I sure miss Collins too! Good post! But seriously, outside of Clay, Bishop, (Hawk?), BJ Raji, Pickett, T-Will, Shields, Chuck, Burnett and maybe Peprah (strictly as backup though)...would you ultimately keep? I don't see any other to keep on D - AT ALL!

[pbmax]

I have a bigger concern and it goes to the secondary. This is year 3 of this scheme and they are still having late communication issues. The cameras caught Woodson making a call and midway into the adjustment the G-men snapped the ball.

Losing Collins would could cause such a misunderstanding in the short term, but 15 weeks later its still cropping up. Why all the confusion in the back end? Coaching or players?

More than one team said the Packers coverage scheme was not hard to figure out. So they aren't calculating coverage angles using fractals back there. But they still can't agree on a call.

[mraynrand]

Hawk looked great doing jumping jacks in the middle of the field all night. What a great #5 pick he turned out to be


^^^^sour grapes^^^^

[mraynrand]

I have a bigger concern and it goes to the secondary. This is year 3 of this scheme and they are still having late communication issues. The cameras caught Woodson making a call and midway into the adjustment the G-men snapped the ball.

Losing Collins would could cause such a misunderstanding in the short term, but 15 weeks later its still cropping up. Why all the confusion in the back end? Coaching or players?

More than one team said the Packers coverage scheme was not hard to figure out. So they aren't calculating coverage angles using fractals back there. But they still can't agree on a call.


They did pretty well on the third down to stop the Giant's first drive. The problem is that you have guys who were trained to play man coverage - Shields, Williams, and even Woodson, trying to play a zone. They just aren't that good at it. Add Bush - lot of great effort, but no grey matter, and JAG Peprah, and it's a mess. If they can't play press coverage, they're gonna look worse. Plus Woodson is done. Can't people see that?

[pbmax]

Wells might be one of the best players on the team and is there every week. They shouldn't break the bank on him but they should make him a priority re-sign.

Usually, but he got beat stone cold twice yesterday.

The cold and running game were not the problems and its funny but somehow good run D didn't make much difference in the game. :lol:

Longer term, if there is no Clifton, is there any chance Sherrod is ready by training camp or will he simply begin working by training camp? If that is the case, do you add LT to the offseason list?

[mmmdk]

I have a bigger concern and it goes to the secondary. This is year 3 of this scheme and they are still having late communication issues. The cameras caught Woodson making a call and midway into the adjustment the G-men snapped the ball.

Losing Collins would could cause such a misunderstanding in the short term, but 15 weeks later its still cropping up. Why all the confusion in the back end? Coaching or players?

More than one team said the Packers coverage scheme was not hard to figure out. So they aren't calculating coverage angles using fractals back there. But they still can't agree on a call.

Very good Q indeed!

I think we all saw what you mentioned above but I can't give a clear cut answer to it! I guess it falls into the lap of both camps!?

[mraynrand]

Usually, but he got beat stone cold twice yesterday.

The cold and running game were not the problems and its funny but somehow good run D didn't make much difference in the game. :lol:

Longer term, if there is no Clifton, is there any chance Sherrod is ready by training camp or will he simply begin working by training camp? If that is the case, do you add LT to the offseason list?

They may add a tackle if it comes to them in the draft, but they could also swing Bulaga and put Outhouse in at RT until Sherrod is ready. I don't see them taking a tackle high unless a guy they love drops in their lap.

[pbmax]

They did pretty well on the third down to stop the Giant's first drive. The problem is that you have guys who were trained to play man coverage - Shields, Williams, and even Woodson, trying to play a zone. They just aren't that good at it. Add Bush - lot of great effort, but no grey matter, and JAG Peprah, and it's a mess. If they can't play press coverage, they're gonna look worse. Plus Woodson is done. Can't people see that?

I agree on Woodson, he is a safety at this point or the nickel guy. His best trait is his brain and tackling.

But in Year 3 they should be able to play a zone. Al figured it out these guys should too.

[pbmax]

Hawk looked great doing jumping jacks in the middle of the field all night. What a great #5 pick he turned out to be


^^^^sour grapes^^^^

Where was he going in his coverage of that touch down in the back of the endzone? He was in the middle of the field short (5 yard line?) and could not interfere with an endzone pass unless it was thrown through his arms. Bishop had a guy running through his zone, but Hawk could have been on the goalline, still available to help on the tackle if the ball went there and force a tougher throw than Manning had to make.

[mmmdk]

I agree on Woodson, he is a safety at this point or the nickel guy. His best trait is his brain and tackling.

But in Year 3 they should be able to play a zone. Al figured it out these guys should too.

Hmm, so can Woody even play safety? Just asking!

[mraynrand]

I agree on Woodson, he is a safety at this point or the nickel guy. His best trait is his brain and tackling.

But in Year 3 they should be able to play a zone. Al figured it out these guys should too.

I call Bullshit. Al NEVER learned zone. He just plain flat out sucked at it. This year's group changed scheme on the go because of injuries and lack of pass rush. Last years' run was man coverage heavy and they had enough pressure to make it work. Either they train zone all off season or just forget about it. Bush just can't do it, so forget about him except in an emergency.

Woodson is finished. He can barely cover the average TEs. He can't even play slot at this point without grabbing. He either guesses right or is toast.

[Brandon494]

Yea Woodson can play safety.

[mmmdk]

Yea Woodson can play safety.

Good...how do you know? 'Cos I'm on the brink of cutting ties - even with Chuck.

[pbmax]

I call Bullshit. Al NEVER learned zone. He just plain flat out sucked at it. This year's group changed scheme on the go because of injuries and lack of pass rush. Last years' run was man coverage heavy and they had enough pressure to make it work. Either they train zone all off season or just forget about it. Bush just can't do it, so forget about him except in an emergency.

Woodson is finished. He can barely cover the average TEs. He can't even play slot at this point without grabbing. He either guesses right or is toast.

Al got to play a lot of man but he also played the bail coverage in a Cover 3 and a four across zone for Sanders. I am not saying he was a master at it but he knew where to go.

[pbmax]

Good...how do you know? 'Cos I'm on the brink of cutting ties - even with Chuck.

They play a defense called Corner Oakie where he is a safety. Not exactly full time, but its not his first go around either.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The most disappointing player on the team this year was Williams. He had the biggest drop off in performance from one year to the next. He is the biggest question mark on the defense for me.

[mraynrand]

The most disappointing player on the team this year was Williams. He had the biggest drop off in performance from one year to the next. He is the biggest question mark on the defense for me.

I'd be interested to hear the coaches talk about cause-effect in the secondary. Was it the secondary's injuries or the piss poor pass rush that led to this crapola? You look at the way things happened: Williams' shoulder, Collins out, Burnett breaking his hand/wrist, Shields' concussion. Now mix in a slippage in play by Woodson (who knows? Maybe it's because he's trying to do too much, like in 2008, or he's just frickin old), a god awful pass rush, and you take a rock solid secondary that plays press coverage very well, and you turn it into a soft coverage mush.

[Packers4Glory]

I sure miss Collins too! Good post! But seriously, outside of Clay, Bishop, (Hawk?), BJ Raji, Pickett, T-Will, Shields, Chuck, Burnett and maybe Peprah (strictly as backup though)...would you ultimately keep? I don't see any other to keep on D - AT ALL!

As it stands the only guys who should have roles and starting spots next yr are Mathews, Woodson, Raji, Williams,shields, bishop, Burnett, and pickett. The rest is open season for roles.

I'd like to have a LB that can cover a TE. TE's raped this defense all yr. I'd like to have an OLB opposite of Mathews capable of rushing the passer. He doesn't even have to be an all-pro, just a guy teams have to account for and be leary of. our OLB sucked at pretty much every phase of the game.

I like Bishop as a run stopper, but he can't cover anyone. Hawk took steps backwards this yr. I remember reading and partaking in some Hawk discussions earlier this yr, and now I'm in the fram of mind after actually paying more attention to him, that he had a bad yr.

I think our CB would be a lot better if they didn't have to cover for so long. But there was so manyblown coverages, I'm not sure anyone trusted what the safeties were gonna do.

[gbgary]

just fix the pass rush. all the blitzing hurt williams and shields. draft heavy on the d side.

[mmmdk]

They play a defense called Corner Oakie where he is a safety. Not exactly full time, but its not his first go around either.

Spot duties versus 16 plus games full time at safety is the Q here! He won't hold up! I say nickelback!

[mmmdk]

just fix the pass rush. draft heavy on the d side.

:tup: I want most of our front 7 and reserves gone.

[Pugger]

I've been thinking about our defense and all of the issues and I'm beginning to feel the lockout really hurt some of our younger guys. Here me out. They missed a lot of TEACHING opportunities in the OTAs and mini-camps. During the season the coaches had to concentrate on implementing the game plans. Plus the fact that there is now a limit on padded practices and you have a recipe for problems with these young players. Young players like Sheilds, Williams, Burnett, House - and some of the veterans - could have benefited from those offseason activities.

[ND72]

I've been thinking about our defense and all of the issues and I'm beginning to feel the lockout really hurt some of our younger guys. Here me out. They missed a lot of TEACHING opportunities in the OTAs and mini-camps. During the season the coaches had to concentrate on implementing the game plans. Plus the fact that there is now a limit on padded practices and you have a recipe for problems with these young players. Young players like Sheilds, Williams, Burnett, House - and some of the veterans - could have benefited from those offseason activities.

agreed.

I think it hurt in a couple of ways...younger guys obviously, but scheme implementation is huge during off season, because guys learn, and they learn to communicate. Did you see the confusion our DB's had last night? I do think Bishop and Hawk got better through the year, and I know they played together last year, but time in the offseason with a coach, breaking down film, and doing work would help them, and I think we're fine in 3/4 of our LB corp. We need another guy though, a threat, on the other side. This loss COULD be the best thing that ever happened...could be a Lombardi "this will never happen to us again" type deal. (I hope)

[sharpe1027]

BFoboaloo, the defense certainly gave up a lot of yards this year; however, the offense was the main factor in the only loses this year.

[Joemailman]

BFoboaloo, the defense certainly gave up a lot of yards this year; however, the offense was the main factor in the only loses this year.

What that means though, is that the Packers were incapable of winning a game in which the offense had an off day. Rodgers had an off day in the NFC Title Game against the Bears last year, but the defense came through. That didn't happen this year.

[sharpe1027]

What that means though, is that the Packers were incapable of winning a game in which the offense had an off day. Rodgers had an off day in the NFC Title Game against the Bears last year, but the defense came through. That didn't happen this year.

I say Pot-aye-to, you say Pot-ah-to. The defense played well enough to win with an off day by the offense. They did not play well enough to win when the offense didn't even show up. It is a team game and the team is good enough to win on the whole. If anything let them down it was the O.

The Packer's offense is geared to score points and they believe they can compete with anyone. They do not come in with a game plan to grind clock to limit the number of possessions and thereby make the defensive stats look good.

IMO, the whole yards/game is a complete waste of time. Craps offensive teams (think KC) try to limit the number of plays and possessions because they know they are the lesser team and their defensive stats look better for it. Good offensive teams (Packers/Pats/Saints) want more plays and possessions and their defensive stats look worse for it.

While I was annoyed with the number of wide-open WRs on 3rd down yesterday, the defense played good enough to win with an above-average offense. Unfortunately, an above-average offense was not in the cards.

[Bossman641]

agreed.

I think it hurt in a couple of ways...younger guys obviously, but scheme implementation is huge during off season, because guys learn, and they learn to communicate. Did you see the confusion our DB's had last night? I do think Bishop and Hawk got better through the year, and I know they played together last year, but time in the offseason with a coach, breaking down film, and doing work would help them, and I think we're fine in 3/4 of our LB corp. We need another guy though, a threat, on the other side. This loss COULD be the best thing that ever happened...could be a Lombardi "this will never happen to us again" type deal. (I hope)

I agree partly, but this doesn't say much for the secondary coaches. It's week 20 and we are still behind from missing a handful of minicamps?

[AtlPackFan]

Bring back the offense and special teams. Overhaul on the defense, but not the scheme. We need a DL (can't assume Mike Neal will be healthy), ROLB, CB, and S (assuming Collins is done). We'll be in the running again next year. It's not easy to win the Super Bowl two years in a row. Disappointing, but I was actually a bit surprised we followed up a Super bowl victory with a 15-1 record. It is what it is.

This!

[AtlPackFan]

Agree with all but #7. Kuhn was OK back this year. Clifton was a liability today. Finley does NOT deserve his payday. His piss poor performance and the amount of drops do not equate to upper echelon talent.

The pass rush was PA-THE-TIC. I don't get the constant zone schemes when the Giants were finding the soft spots most of the game.

The D had no pass rush and played too soft. The loss of Collins hurt, but it was no excuse for the sloppy play.

PISS POOR Fundamentals. Lousy tackling, the amount of drops and lack of ball control was far from championship caliber.

Say what you want about Driver, but he was one of the few guys who caught the tough passes today. Jennings, Finley, Starks, Crabtree all had drops that killed drives. Rodgers wasn't as sharp with the 2 overthrows, but his runs were the only thing that kept this game from being an even worse defeat.

My thought was they were playing zone BECAUSE the pass rush couldn't get home. IMHO, if you play up tight man-to-man, you had better be able to get to the QB and Green Bay couldn't all year without blitzing...and even then they couldn't always get to the QB. I think the Pack needs to somehow bolster that front four....I believe losing Jenkins hurt more than losing Collins.

[AtlPackFan]

Woodson still had a pretty darn good yr. problem is Williams and Shields struggled in front of our safeties. and they all struggled because we couldn't generate any pass rush up front. Mathews had zero help and got double teamed all yr.

Yes, Yes, Yes! THIS!!!

[Tarlam!]

just fix the pass rush. all the blitzing hurt williams and shields. draft heavy on the d side.

Yup. Sounds so simple. I am amazed at posters want massive changes. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

[red]

go hard after calais campbell, sign him. then go for a stud OLB in the draft.

that would go a long ways towards fixing the d IMO

[Packers4Glory]

I guess what we learn from a season ago is the line between a top 5 defense and a 32nd ranked defense is really fucking thin.

[Joemailman]

go hard after calais campbell, sign him. then go for a stud OLB in the draft.

that would go a long ways towards fixing the d IMO

Cardinals have been working on an extension for Campbell. I highly doubt he'll reach free agency. You're right though. He'd be a great fit.

[denverYooper]

agreed.

I think it hurt in a couple of ways...younger guys obviously, but scheme implementation is huge during off season, because guys learn, and they learn to communicate. Did you see the confusion our DB's had last night? I do think Bishop and Hawk got better through the year, and I know they played together last year, but time in the offseason with a coach, breaking down film, and doing work would help them, and I think we're fine in 3/4 of our LB corp. We need another guy though, a threat, on the other side. This loss COULD be the best thing that ever happened...could be a Lombardi "this will never happen to us again" type deal. (I hope)

I'm hoping that is the result as well.

[bobblehead]

Someone really needs to tell McCarthy that our offense is NOT ideal for January in Green Bay.

8 drops and 3 fumbles (4 if you count jennings) had nothing to do with the scheme. THAT was the story of the game. Kuhn first career fumble, Rodgers 2 TO's, Grant with a rare fumble. Every reciever took turns dropping passes.

This team is still awesome and poised to make another run next year. We need to be tougher on D. Chuck is still a man among boys. Tramon better have been injured, cuz if this was him healthy after the payday....oh shit.

We desperately need an OLB opposite clay and I always thought resigning Hawk to a big deal was a mistake.

If Collins comes back healthy and we land an OLB our outlook is outright awesome. If collins is done, and sherrod can't come back right, and we don't find the answer at OLB.....we will still win 10 games or more.

[bobblehead]

And what would you change? Oter than Raji and Pickett, talent is below average on DL. oLb other than Matthews is a joke. Finley is so overrated it's a joke. I'd offer him veteran minimum with possible bonuses if he can catch a ball. Clifton needs to go, his body is just done. Kuhn...seriously? Wisconsin voted him into pro bowl, he doesn't do anything. If you argue that, seriously watch a game. DB talent after Woodson, Williams, Shields, Burnett, Collins is yuck. And seriously, wanna know why we can't win a home playoff game? Lack of talent at HB and lack of willing to run the ball. We need a top end talent at HB. So seriously, what did I mistakenly say?

ND....take a valium, and prep for the draft. We ran the ball 16 times for 81 yards (discounting ARod) in a game we were losing and turning the ball over all day. That is effective and NOT the problem. Our OL was actually damn good in run and pass. We dropped EIGHT passes. Fumbled 3 times. Gave up a bullshit hail mary because TWO DB's didn't get depth.

I don't think you will find many 3-4 teams with better DL talent than Green Bay. You're honestly complaining that we don't have dominant dbacks beyond the first 5? WHO THE FUCK DOES??

Everyone has to simply look at what happened. The team played sloppy for whatever reason. The talent is there. They did go 15-1....not with smoke and mirrors. Seriously, you would think we just came off a 3-13 season.

[bobblehead]

Won't cut it, dude! More will need to go; watch TT at works as it happens in the 2012 offseason! Retooling through draft and, dare I say it, there will be signed a pair of free agents.

My beef is with the defense, O-line and let's get a real RB.

The defense didn't lose this game. The offense did.

At the risk of blowing this thread to shit, I used to HAMMER old brett for throwing 2 picks and a fumble and then fans would complain that the D gave up too many points. The D played ok (other than that pathetic hail mary defense). Problem is they kept having to play a short field and they got worn down finally. Giants only had 20 points with 10 minutes to go (I think was the point it truly fell apart). Problem is that after the O got the ball Grant gave it RIGHT back and a worn down D just couldn't hold on anymore.

You CANNOT turn the ball over and have so many 3 and outs due to drops and win.

[bobblehead]

I sure miss Collins too! Good post! But seriously, outside of Clay, Bishop, (Hawk?), BJ Raji, Pickett, T-Will, Shields, Chuck, Burnett and maybe Peprah (strictly as backup though)...would you ultimately keep? I don't see any other to keep on D - AT ALL!

Wynn and CJ wilson are ok and still can develope. I like the midget at ILB better than hawk. Francois has developed and is serviceable. Walden was much better than the year before and is still very young. His pass rush is way better. House was an injured rookie. You sound like my wife who thinks the packers should name 24 players to the probowl every year and play the best of the AFC....it doesn't work that way except in computer games.

[3irty1]

1. The biggest need in the offseason last season was OLB and is even more vital now as Brad Jones is playing like a 7th round pick, Zombo is playing like a UFA, and Walden is playing like a midseason street FA. I think it has more to do with Raji and less to do with Jenkins but teams where protecting very differently against us last year, often keeping in a RB and a TE to blitz pickup or chip block. We need to get back to forcing our will on opposing protection schemes.

2. This is not an overreaction to question whether or not its time to make a change from Dom Capers. This season the defense was consistently miserable and not always in a players-losing-their-1-on-1's way. The theme of the 3rd down defense this season was to leave guys wide open in the middle of the field for easy completions. That has to be scheme. If its not Dom's fault, then someone else needs to pay for the consistent breakdowns in coverage.

3. The cupboard is totally bare at LT. Looks like Newhouse will be pressed into service again next year unless we can squeeze one more out of Clifton. Sherrod is a ways away from contributing, we need at least one tackle in the draft.

4. You clearly resign/tag Finley. There is a difference between having bad hands and dropping too many passes. Finley's hands aren't the issue. He had just an OK year... for an elite player. Bring him back.

5. Saying Woodson's lost it is foolish. Who had a better year for this Defense?

[pbmax]

My thought was they were playing zone BECAUSE the pass rush couldn't get home. IMHO, if you play up tight man-to-man, you had better be able to get to the QB and Green Bay couldn't all year without blitzing...and even then they couldn't always get to the QB. I think the Pack needs to somehow bolster that front four....I believe losing Jenkins hurt more than losing Collins.

I think the zone was to protect the safeties as much as the corners due to the pass rush.

[pbmax]

ND....take a valium, and prep for the draft. We ran the ball 16 times for 81 yards (discounting ARod) in a game we were losing and turning the ball over all day. That is effective and NOT the problem. Our OL was actually damn good in run and pass. We dropped EIGHT passes. Fumbled 3 times. Gave up a bullshit hail mary because TWO DB's didn't get depth.

I don't think you will find many 3-4 teams with better DL talent than Green Bay. You're honestly complaining that we don't have dominant dbacks beyond the first 5? WHO THE FUCK DOES??

Everyone has to simply look at what happened. The team played sloppy for whatever reason. The talent is there. They did go 15-1....not with smoke and mirrors. Seriously, you would think we just came off a 3-13 season.

One critique, O line was not a tire fire, but Rodgers did not often have a clean pocket or extra time without vacating it. About as good as you would expect with 2 returning starters, but not enough in this game (which I seem to keep saying over and over again).

[Packers4Glory]

I'm not counting Sherrod out next yr. He'll have an entire offseason to work which he really didn't have this yr. That's a lot of valuable coaching time lost for a rookie.

[Pugger]

I'd be interested to hear the coaches talk about cause-effect in the secondary. Was it the secondary's injuries or the piss poor pass rush that led to this crapola? You look at the way things happened: Williams' shoulder, Collins out, Burnett breaking his hand/wrist, Shields' concussion. Now mix in a slippage in play by Woodson (who knows? Maybe it's because he's trying to do too much, like in 2008, or he's just frickin old), a god awful pass rush, and you take a rock solid secondary that plays press coverage very well, and you turn it into a soft coverage mush.

^^^^

[Pugger]

ND....take a valium, and prep for the draft. We ran the ball 16 times for 81 yards (discounting ARod) in a game we were losing and turning the ball over all day. That is effective and NOT the problem. Our OL was actually damn good in run and pass. We dropped EIGHT passes. Fumbled 3 times. Gave up a bullshit hail mary because TWO DB's didn't get depth.

I don't think you will find many 3-4 teams with better DL talent than Green Bay. You're honestly complaining that we don't have dominant dbacks beyond the first 5? WHO THE FUCK DOES??

Everyone has to simply look at what happened. The team played sloppy for whatever reason. The talent is there. They did go 15-1....not with smoke and mirrors. Seriously, you would think we just came off a 3-13 season.

:lol: No shit.

[gbgary]

no need to hit the...

http://www.fototime.com/B0C8BAC0B2926D1/standard.jpg

[ND72]

Wynn and CJ wilson are ok and still can develope. I like the midget at ILB better than hawk. Francois has developed and is serviceable. Walden was much better than the year before and is still very young. His pass rush is way better. House was an injured rookie. You sound like my wife who thinks the packers should name 24 players to the probowl every year and play the best of the AFC....it doesn't work that way except in computer games.

I was actually going to agree with you on all points until here. Did you watch any game. Wynn and Wilson are horrible. Wilson is the worse of the 2, and that ain't saying much. ryan pickett was listed as having more "makeable plays" from The scout report on espn insider sunday than Wilson had all season. Walden is ok, but considering he's the 7th best LB on the team, EH. All 3 could go, bring in rookies and we lose NOTHING in return. And when I said there is no talent past top 5...Woodson isn't young and we need a replacement who obviously isn't on the roster, tramon stepped back, Collins may never play, Burnett is learning, and shields is learning....NONE except tramon maybe are sure things.

[ND72]

1. The biggest need in the offseason last season was OLB and is even more vital now as Brad Jones is playing like a 7th round pick, Zombo is playing like a UFA, and Walden is playing like a midseason street FA. I think it has more to do with Raji and less to do with Jenkins but teams where protecting very differently against us last year, often keeping in a RB and a TE to blitz pickup or chip block. We need to get back to forcing our will on opposing protection schemes.

2. This is not an overreaction to question whether or not its time to make a change from Dom Capers. This season the defense was consistently miserable and not always in a players-losing-their-1-on-1's way. The theme of the 3rd down defense this season was to leave guys wide open in the middle of the field for easy completions. That has to be scheme. If its not Dom's fault, then someone else needs to pay for the consistent breakdowns in coverage.

3. The cupboard is totally bare at LT. Looks like Newhouse will be pressed into service again next year unless we can squeeze one more out of Clifton. Sherrod is a ways away from contributing, we need at least one tackle in the draft.

4. You clearly resign/tag Finley. There is a difference between having bad hands and dropping too many passes. Finley's hands aren't the issue. He had just an OK year... for an elite player. Bring him back.

5. Saying Woodson's lost it is foolish. Who had a better year for this Defense?

I'm honestly not worried about Sherrod if he can get healthy.

[Tarlam!]

I'm honestly not worried about Sherrod if he can get healthy.

I felt the same way about Justin Harrell. :(

[Pugger]

I'm not counting Sherrod out next yr. He'll have an entire offseason to work which he really didn't have this yr. That's a lot of valuable coaching time lost for a rookie.

The lockout hurt a lot of rookies and 2nd year guys. This coming offseason will be huge for these young players.

[mmmdk]

The defense didn't lose this game. The offense did.

At the risk of blowing this thread to shit, I used to HAMMER old brett for throwing 2 picks and a fumble and then fans would complain that the D gave up too many points. The D played ok (other than that pathetic hail mary defense). Problem is they kept having to play a short field and they got worn down finally. Giants only had 20 points with 10 minutes to go (I think was the point it truly fell apart). Problem is that after the O got the ball Grant gave it RIGHT back and a worn down D just couldn't hold on anymore.

You CANNOT turn the ball over and have so many 3 and outs due to drops and win.

No doubt, the O didn't do well. The D did ok at times, still gave up a hail Mary TD that deflated the Packers which put more pressure on our offense that was being outplayed & outcoached. Yet the offense has much less problems going into next season than the defense.

[mmmdk]

Wynn and CJ wilson are ok and still can develope. I like the midget at ILB better than hawk. Francois has developed and is serviceable. Walden was much better than the year before and is still very young. His pass rush is way better. House was an injured rookie. You sound like my wife who thinks the packers should name 24 players to the probowl every year and play the best of the AFC....it doesn't work that way except in computer games.

I don't want diamonds in the rough players, not even 24 pro bowlers is what I seek - I want a balanced defense that other team respect, even fear a wee bit. To many PS talent players on the game roster on defense & O-line.

'Bout your wife...she sounds like a lot of fun...any chance she & I should have a night on the town? :lol: Just kiddin'!

[Smidgeon]

We lost 2 games all season, no need to blow anything up but we do need to make a few moves.

On offense we need to let Grant go and find a speed back that can catch out of the backfield (Saine)

On defense we need to add a pass rushing OLB opposite of Clay Matthews, a play making safety if Collins doesn't come back (Woodson full time), and D-line help.

I think 2 of the 4 are already on the team...

[Smidgeon]

They need another safety even if Collins is back. Peprah should be your 4th safety/ST guy.

Any ideas on MD Jennings' potential?

[Smidgeon]

As it stands the only guys who should have roles and starting spots next yr are Mathews, Woodson, Raji, Williams,shields, bishop, Burnett, and pickett. The rest is open season for roles.

And Collins if he's healthy. Other than that, I agree 100% with your list.

[SnakeLH2006]

good god, where do you even begin this offseason

gut the d. its been pathetic all year. time for dom to go. we didn't see one fucking adjustment from him all year. this squad looked just as lost and pathetic today as it did in week one

1. get rid of the zombo, walden, jones train wreck at OLB. those guys are all equally worthless. get a real nfl player there.

2. t-will is not a #1 cb. sorry, but he was a major liability all year

3. if woodson doesn't retire you have to find a real position to use him in. last year he was everywhere. this year he was almost nowhere. not blitzing, no lockdown coverage, no hybrid LB, no hybrid cb. what the hell was his role this year? it sure as hell wasn't the same as its been the last few years. his talents were completely wasted this year

4. we need to not fall in love with the 3-4 if dom goes. we don't exactly have the right personal for the 3-4 either. we have 2 decent d-linemen, both would be good DT's, and we only have 1 good rushing OLB. no reason to stick with the 3-4 when we don't have the talent or smarts to pull it off

5. go back to building a team with smart players. how many times this year have we seen guys looking at each other trying to figure out what they should be doing or where to line up

6. hawk is expendable. he got his payday, then his play slipped way off

7. find another stud safety. if nick can play agin, then you have two great safeties. send burnett to the bench, he's been nothing special.

on the other side of the ball. let finely go. he's a big talker, but this year has been a massive let down from him. his mind was somewhere else this year. his mind was on getting his big contract. i think you're looking at a hanesworth type of player who would get paid, then just go through the motions

this team needs to get some attitude and some other players besides rodgers need to start to show some heart on the field

on another note. we probably just watched the end of three great careers tonight. clifton and driver are probably done. and it wouldn't shock me if this was woodsons last game either

Red is spot on....cept TWill is ok...just need a passrusher. Hawk always sucked. Finley is cancer........and herpes.