Hawk taking heat in Green Bay

[Brando19]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/22/hawk-taking-heat-in-green-bay/

Hawk isn't the player we thought he'd be when we drafted him in 2005. I watched every Packers game this year and I payed close attention to Hawk. Almost every single time he would sack the QB or make a really good play, he would look at his OWN bench and flip the bird, make a gesture, or cuss. I'm pretty sure his own teammates make fun of his play and believe Barnett should be here instead of Hawk. Is it time to cut ties with him? Is DJ Smith an upgrade? Would we get anything in a trade out of Hawk?

[mission]

Hawk is a joke.

[Brandon494]

I've been saying this since 2008 so you know where I stand.

[Bretsky]

Been a backer of Hawk for a long time and stood up for him last year and thought he was finally coming around
This year..............severe disappointment

[mmmdk]

Been a backer of Hawk for a long time and stood up for him last year and thought he was finally coming around
This year..............severe disappointment

Pretty much how I feel too!

[sheepshead]

Barnett is mentioned here and I am in a small minority of people that think he was more important to that defense then many realize. I saw it when he went down, I really had no way to know how well he healed however. While their numbers were similar I always thought Barnett was more of a factor out there considering his intangibles.

[mraynrand]

Patrick Peterson
Eric Berry
Mark Sanchez
Glenn Dorsey
Levi Brown
A.J. Hawk
Cadillac Williams
Sean Taylor
Terrance Newman
Quentin Jammer
La Dainian Tomlinson


Hawk isn't the only lousy #5 in the past decade, but look at what lousy #5s have meant to the failures of other teams as well.

Those of us who wanted Vernon Davis are vindicated. Hawk is football refuse.

[pbmax]

Barnett is mentioned here and I am in a small minority of people that think he was more important to that defense then many realize. I saw it when he went down, I really had no way to know how well he healed however. While their numbers were similar I always thought Barnett was more of a factor out there considering his intangibles.

While its not a direct reflection of Hawk vs. Barnett, its hard to argue he was better for the defense overall based on last year's performance; the D got better after he left the lineup.

[pbmax]

Funny how now the measured, calm demeanor of Hawk is now considered a liability in relation to this year's collapse. McGinn is starting to lapse into Silverstein territory here. Last year, it was the salvation of the defense.

[sheepshead]

Patrick Peterson
Eric Berry
Mark Sanchez
Glenn Dorsey
Levi Brown
A.J. Hawk
Cadillac Williams
Sean Taylor
Terrance Newman
Quentin Jammer
La Dainian Tomlinson


Hawk isn't the only lousy #5 in the past decade, but look at what lousy #5s have meant to the failures of other teams as well.

Those of us who wanted Vernon Davis are vindicated. Hawk is football refuse.

The NFL draft, that biggest overrated crap shoot in all of sports.

[Pugger]

Patrick Peterson
Eric Berry
Mark Sanchez
Glenn Dorsey
Levi Brown
A.J. Hawk
Cadillac Williams
Sean Taylor
Terrance Newman
Quentin Jammer
La Dainian Tomlinson


Hawk isn't the only lousy #5 in the past decade, but look at what lousy #5s have meant to the failures of other teams as well.

Those of us who wanted Vernon Davis are vindicated. Hawk is football refuse.

Huh? :cnf:

[Tony Oday]

Still like Hawk and really there are other positions that need more help than ILB.

[mraynrand]

Huh? :cnf:

there are good #5s and bad #5s. Take Sanchez - the expectation is that he takes the JETS to playoff glory, but he sucks and drags them down. Several of those other picks were/are solid pros, some are JAGs. A pro bowl caliber pick at #5 could have meant something to the Packers, but they got a turd. It happens, that's the point. But when it does, it's especially painful, because you had to suck the previous season to 'merit' that pick, and to get nothing is like a double kick in the face.

[mraynrand]

Still like Hawk and really there are other positions that need more help than ILB.

really? The guy is a waste of cellular matter, and LB is supposed to be the strength of a 3-4. Sure, maybe OLB would be more vital, but looking at the way the middle of the field was absolutely GASHED by opposing offenses, especially by TEs, AND the fact that the Packers were forced to put Matthews in coverage because Hawk sucked, AND that a cast off free agent LB is more athletic than Hawk and can actually intercept passes, MIGHT just suggest that Hawk is a far bigger turd sandwich than you think, and that he didn't look so bad specifically because they covered for him.

[mraynrand]

Funny how now the measured, calm demeanor of Hawk is now considered a liability in relation to this year's collapse. McGinn is starting to lapse into Silverstein territory here. Last year, it was the salvation of the defense.

Really makes you want to plunk down that $5/month, doesn't it?

[Brandon494]

Cut Hawk and spend the money on a pass rusher while drafting a pass rusher with each of our first three picks. :alc: Problem solved!

[ND72]

More so in a 3-4 defense is the DL a direct reflection on the ILB. Not a single DL player received much attention. If we are gonna start to lame might as well lay it all out there. Raji was horrible, and Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk either. Call a spade a spade across the board.

[mission]

More so in a 3-4 defense is the DL a direct reflection on the ILB. Not a single DL player received much attention. If we are gonna start to lame might as well lay it all out there. Raji was horrible, and Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk either. Call a spade a spade across the board.

Bishop was a ton better than Hawk by just about every metric.

[Brandon494]

Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk? Huh? Oh wait its the guy with the man crush on Hawk, didn't recognize you with the new avatar.

[Bretsky]

Cut Hawk and spend the money on a pass rusher while drafting a pass rusher with each of our first three picks. :alc: Problem solved!

BINGO
get three solid pass rushers and everybody in the secondary looks better.

[Bretsky]

More so in a 3-4 defense is the DL a direct reflection on the ILB. Not a single DL player received much attention. If we are gonna start to lame might as well lay it all out there. Raji was horrible, and Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk either. Call a spade a spade across the board.


I think when he was in Bishop's performance was superior to Hawk's. He also seemed to make more big plays. When Pickett was out Raji's play IMO suffered even more because teams only had two players on our front 7 to game plan for, Raji and Matthews. As disappointing as it is to say, Hawk is a J.A.G. and a great disappointment as a first round draft pick.

[pbmax]

Really makes you want to plunk down that $5/month, doesn't it?

I know that information in a short time frame is limited. But the failure to recognize past mistakes for what they are drives me mad. I think they really believe that people only ever read one piece of theirs ever, or, are too dumb to remember.

To be fair, McGinn ventured into that territory far less than the others, but last year he thought it looked like he had his best year even if the contract was high. So Bob is not above swaying with the wind either.

ND has a point, Hawk looks far less than he did last year due to failures around him. He is the same guy, but the results and the reporting have taken a turn.

[mraynrand]

ND has a point, Hawk looks far less than he did last year due to failures around him.

That's an incredible statement, once you start to look at it closely. I maintain that they HELPED Hawk, by not asking him to cover much. Sometimes they dropped Matthews (like on Pettigrew), but most of the time the hung Bishop out to dry, to the point that he would be covering elite TEs (like Gates) all the way across the field all by himself. If Hawk really looked WORSE because of those around him while at the same time they were protecting him by scheme, then holy christmas does he suck donkey balls.

[pbmax]

That's an incredible statement, once you start to look at it closely. I maintain that they HELPED Hawk, by not asking him to cover much. Sometimes they dropped Matthews (like on Pettigrew), but most of the time the hung Bishop out to dry, to the point that he would be covering elite TEs (like Gates) all the way across the field all by himself. If Hawk really looked WORSE because of those around him while at the same time they were protecting him by scheme, then holy christmas does he suck donkey balls.

Not sure about Matthews, but Bishop definitely saw more time in coverage on TEs and Hawk less.

I think McGinn underplays the difficulty of the ILBs job. It may not be glamorous, but it requires two very different skill sets. They must cover and be solid in inside run support. Elite ILBs can do this, but most others are good at one and adequate at the other. Hawk just seems to be in position, rather than excelling. And no combination of Hawk/Bishop/Barnett is a good match. Not matter which pair you take, you are either missing instinctual run support or coverage.

There just isn't much upside anywhere in his game. Which is where this equation got out of whack. Hawk is a fine player and play caller if he is not the centerpiece of the defense. But his contract seems to make it look like he is, though I am not sure that's the case. He doesn't kill the D by being there, but he can be replaced, probably for a lot less.

But I am not buying the Barnett argument. Maybe he helps in coverage but the run D would have been worse. I would not be surprised to see Hawk back, not because he is irreplaceable or because Thompson has a soft spot for him in his heart, but because there are too many other holes to fill.

[mraynrand]

Not sure about Matthews, but Bishop definitely saw more time in coverage on TEs and Hawk less.

I think McGinn underplays the difficulty of the ILBs job. It may not be glamorous, but it requires two very different skill sets. They must cover and be solid in inside run support. Elite ILBs can do this, but most others are good at one and adequate at the other. Hawk just seems to be in position, rather than excelling. And no combination of Hawk/Bishop/Barnett is a good match. Not matter which pair you take, you are either missing instinctual run support or coverage.

There just isn't much upside anywhere in his game. Which is where this equation got out of whack. Hawk is a fine player and play caller if he is not the centerpiece of the defense. But his contract seems to make it look like he is, though I am not sure that's the case. He doesn't kill the D by being there, but he can be replaced, probably for a lot less.

But I am not buying the Barnett argument. Maybe he helps in coverage but the run D would have been worse. I would not be surprised to see Hawk back, not because he is irreplaceable or because Thompson has a soft spot for him in his heart, but because there are too many other holes to fill.


Barnett = speed, athleticism, false steps.

Hawk would be serviceable in a very good defense. That's why he's a JAG. And as a #5, that makes him a turd.

[Joemailman]

With the extra comp picks TT has, I could see an ILB getting drafted in Rounds 4-5. Hawk could be vulnerable to a rookie or D.J. Smith having a good camp.

[packrulz]

For the money he's making he should be better than this: http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3629/aj-hawk

[Bretsky]

I know that information in a short time frame is limited. But the failure to recognize past mistakes for what they are drives me mad. I think they really believe that people only ever read one piece of theirs ever, or, are too dumb to remember.

To be fair, McGinn ventured into that territory far less than the others, but last year he thought it looked like he had his best year even if the contract was high. So Bob is not above swaying with the wind either.

ND has a point, Hawk looks far less than he did last year due to failures around him. He is the same guy, but the results and the reporting have taken a turn.


Hawk missed Cullen Jenkins :)

[George Cumby]

Cut Hawk and spend the money on a pass rusher while drafting a pass rusher with each of our first three picks. :alc: Problem solved!

+1. On the band wagon until this year. Huge disappointment.

[red]

what does hawks numbers do to our cap if we cut him?

i mean, he just signed a fairly big contract

i've always been a hawk supporter, but he was a JAG this year and has been most of his career. his blitzes have proven for years to be worthless

[red]

so if i read his contract right, he's due to make between 4 and 5 million next season. he got a 8 million dollar signing bonus. so if he gets cut, you take somewhere around a 6.5 million dollar hit.

so you lose money by cutting him. so you aren't gonna be able to cut him and sign a pass rusher with his free money

[Joemailman]

so if i read his contract right, he's due to make between 4 and 5 million next season. he got a 8 million dollar signing bonus. so if he gets cut, you take somewhere around a 6.5 million dollar hit.

so you lose money by cutting him. so you aren't gonna be able to cut him and sign a pass rusher with his free money

That looks right. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/a.j.-hawk/

[red]

That looks right. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/a.j.-hawk/

nope i was wrong, looking at the site, it would be about a wash to cut him vs. keeping him

his cap number this year is 6.55, and the cap hit to cut him would be 6.4

you still aren't signing someone else by cutting him

[Bretsky]

I think we are stuck with the J.A.G. for a couple more years with that contract

[Fred's Slacks]

Big disappointment. I used to feel like he just wasn't in position to make many plays. This year its seemed like most games he was in position to make one or two plays and every time, instead of attacking, he'd take a few steps backward, give the ball carrier a cushion then proceed to fall down while the ball carrier ran by him. I hope he bounces back to average but this season I feel he was just bad.

[Brandon494]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?

[Brandon494]

Damn well if we are unable to cut him hopefully some sucker will take him off our hands.

[falco]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?

I was hoping for Davis at the time but he has had a spotty record the last few years himself.

[denverYooper]

there are good #5s and bad #5s. Take Sanchez - the expectation is that he takes the JETS to playoff glory, but he sucks and drags them down. Several of those other picks were/are solid pros, some are JAGs. A pro bowl caliber pick at #5 could have meant something to the Packers, but they got a turd. It happens, that's the point. But when it does, it's especially painful, because you had to suck the previous season to 'merit' that pick, and to get nothing is like a double kick in the face.

All of those high picks that the 49ers "stockpiled" have finally gotten them to the NFCCG.

[denverYooper]

Funny how now the measured, calm demeanor of Hawk is now considered a liability in relation to this year's collapse. McGinn is starting to lapse into Silverstein territory here. Last year, it was the salvation of the defense.

He's got his shorts in a twist because he was predicting dynasty not long ago.

[King Friday]

I would not say that Hawk is JAG...he's better than that. Peprah is JAG. However, Hawk is not the playmaker you would hope for from a high draft pick. He will do enough to ensure that you don't lose games, but he isn't going to win any for you.

I don't see how cutting him improves your team. You don't have anyone to replace him at the moment, and it will just cost you a bunch of money to make him go away and then you have to pay even more for his replacement. Sorry, but I don't see the reasoning to dump Hawk. Obviously, it probably would've been better to pass on paying him a big deal...but we can't change that at this point. Yeah, I'd love to upgrade the position...but there are several others we can upgrade without incurring the huge cap hit. I think we focus on those for now and maybe hope a mid-to-late round flyer pans out so we can dump Hawk after next season.

[Brandon494]

Hawk and Peprah are two peas in a pot.

[Brando19]

Hawk and Peprah are two peas in a pot.

Bingo.

[Tarlam!]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?

Yeah, cause he's white.

[Joemailman]

Hawk and Peprah are two peas in a pot.

pod.

[Brandon494]

Yeah, cause he's white.

Not because hes white just over hyped coming out of Ohio State. Also at the time we were weak at TE, Favre needed another play maker, and Davis ran 4.3 which doesn't come around very often for a TE.

[Joemailman]

Not because hes white just over hyped coming out of Ohio State. Also at the time we were weak at TE, Favre needed another play maker, and Davis ran 4.3 which doesn't come around very often for a TE.

Packers were even weaker at WLB though. Robert Thomas was terrible. There were those questioning whether Hawk was a special player though. It didn't work out as well as hoped, but I think TT took the productive football player over the guy with freakish athleticism.

[MJZiggy]

Packers were even weaker at WLB though. Robert Thomas was terrible. There were those questioning whether Hawk was a special player though. It didn't work out as well as hoped, but I think TT took the productive football player over the guy with freakish athleticism.

The guy with the freakish athleticism who wept with joy when we didn't draft him...

[th87]

If we pick Davis, history doesn't unfold as it does, so I'm not upset about it now (I was then).

That said, watching SF play shows you what real ILBs look like.

[Pugger]

If we pick Davis, history doesn't unfold as it does, so I'm not upset about it now (I was then).

That said, watching SF play shows you what real ILBs look like.

Watching SF play shows you what a real DEFENSE looks like.

[Brandon494]

The guy with the freakish athleticism who wept with joy when we didn't draft him...

Yea most players don't want to come to Green Bay until they play for the team and then they love it. Charles Woodson was one of those players who didn't want to come to Green Bay until he plays for the team and now he loves it.

[Brandon494]

Packers were even weaker at WLB though. Robert Thomas was terrible. There were those questioning whether Hawk was a special player though. It didn't work out as well as hoped, but I think TT took the productive football player over the guy with freakish athleticism.

True but you could pick someone up in the 2nd or 3rd round, you don't get chances to draft TEs with 4.3 speed very often.

[Tony Oday]

Vernon Davis is a punk. He would have been a cancer in the locker room because I dont think e have a coach that would have straightened him out.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hawk had a bad year. He wasn't the only guy on defense. (B.J. Raji, Tramon Williams, Sam Shields, Charlie Peprah come to mind.) He wasn't bad in every game--which is what Brandon and some others would have you believe. And he's had 2-3 years where he was pretty good. That being said, I was impressed with D.J. Smith this year. I wouldn't be heartbroken if Hawk were cut, cap hit is a wash but clear the money for future years. I think Smith is going to be a solid starter down the line.

[red]

Not because hes white just over hyped coming out of Ohio State. Also at the time we were weak at TE, Favre needed another play maker, and Davis ran 4.3 which doesn't come around very often for a TE.
davis wouldn't have helped favre at all. if i'm not mistaken, davis was also considered a huge bust up until last season (2010)

also, he's the exact opposite of the type of guy you want on your team. he's a massive me first guy. did you hear his post game interview last week? he basically through the whole 9ers team under the bus for not getting the job done, then gave himself all the credit for the win

[Brandon494]

He was never considered a bust and has never had a good QB in SF while he has been there. Also I heard the interview and while he did credit himself he didn't throw his team under the bus. Thankfully Hawk is a team first guy and packer people, who needs talent anyway in the NFL. Guys defending Hawk are delusional.

[SkinBasket]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?

Yeah, and then Vermin Davis cried tears of joy on national television because he wasn't going to GB. So let's not pretend that fuckhead would have made the team better.

No matter who you put at ILB, they're going to look like shit until we get DEs and OLBs who can play the run or pass rush better than Jarius Wynn and Turd on Wheels or any of his back-ups. All you folks are trying to treat the symptoms and not the illness. But carry on.

[Scott Campbell]

Damn well if we are unable to cut him hopefully some sucker will take him off our hands.


Were still on the hook for the accelerated signing bonus cap hit if we trade him.

[Teamcheez1]

Hawk has 1 or 2 years left in GB. While not spectacular, he has filled a role this team needed.

[Scott Campbell]

The guy with the freakish athleticism who wept with joy when we didn't draft him...


VD has manapauase that's even worse than Harlan's.

[Brandon494]

News Flash not many players want to come play for Green Bay, especially young black players. Even Charles Woodson stated he hated the idea of playing in Green Bay but we were the only team offering the money he was looking for. Now he loves Green Bay just like every other player who played for the Packers. Oh yea and I'm pretty sure he was crying because he accomplished his dream of becoming a NFL player and not being he wasn't skipped over by the Packers.

As for need of players on the D-line that's a obvious issue but that still doesn't change the fact that Hawk sucks in coverage, misses tackles, gets pushed back for 3 yards when he does make tackles, and has no play making ability what so ever.

[Brandon494]

Were still on the hook for the accelerated signing bonus cap hit if we trade him.

Well damn TT fucked up on this one, should have let Hawk go and use the money to resign Jenkins or another pass rushing threat.

[pbmax]

Hawk and Peprah are not in the same physical class, Hawk is nowhere near as wanting. For the love of Brian Williams, Hawk can cover a TE better than Peprah.

He could be replaced by someone better and probably cheaper, sure, but that is not the move that will bring the biggest improvement to the D. There are two bigger problem areas, both in front and behind him.

More worrisome, if anything McGinn wrote can be taken at face value, is the attitude of the players on D. If the secondary continually sacrifice position for INTs and tackling for strips to their detriment, then the coaches needed to get them to focus on when to take those chances long before the first playoff game. And if it took the season ending team film review to convince Raji that he was continuously out of position in the run game, then those things should have been done much earlier.

Its obviously hindsight, but if there was a Super Bowl hangover, it was all over the defense. And neither of those problems is completely solved by Nick Collins return.

[SkinBasket]

Oh yea and I'm pretty sure he was crying because he accomplished his dream of becoming a NFL player and not being he wasn't skipped over by the Packers.

Except for the interview he gave where he went out of his way to thank god for not being picked by Green Bay. While he cried.


Swwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg gggggg lowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaariot...

[SkinBasket]

As for need of players on the D-line that's a obvious issue but that still doesn't change the fact that Hawk sucks in coverage, misses tackles, gets pushed back for 3 yards when he does make tackles, and has no play making ability what so ever.

He plays just as well as any other of our LBs in coverage, tackles better than most on our defense, and gets pushed back because he's taking on linemen that walked past the DE and/or looked at Walden causing him to fall over.

Hawk never has been a "playmaker" as you Madden guys like to label players. He's a solid part of a functional defense and a reliable teammate. On a dysfunctional defense, his weakness can be exploited just like any other player. On a terrible defense, like GB's, he was often the first defender to make contact, which shouldn't be his role, because the guys in front of him were massive failures and a guy or two behind him couldn't cover a dead man with a sheet.

I've never cared much one way or the other about Hawk. But pinning the failure of the defense this season on him and pretending his play is solely a cause of that failure instead of a result of it, demonstrates a poor understanding of his role in this defense.

[Brandon494]

I'm not blaming him for our defense sucking ass this year at all I've just always thought he was overrated and not worth what he is making. He proved that greatly this season especially when 6th round rookies steps in and play better than you. As for him tackling better than most on the team is a joke. If not for him missing a wide open tackle first game of the season Tramon Williams doesn't get his shoulder injured which hurt his play all season. Not trying to put blame on Hawk but I can remember more plays this season of him fucking up then him making positive plays.

[denverYooper]

Its obviously hindsight, but if there was a Super Bowl hangover, it was all over the defense. And neither of those problems is completely solved by Nick Collins return.

Nods.

One positive I saw @ the end of the year was that Burnett seemed to be in better position more often. Hope something started clicking for him that will carry over.

[smuggler]

if i'm not mistaken, davis was also considered a huge bust up until last season (2010)

Not to troll, but yeah, you are mistaken. He wasn't always considered a top-10 tight end. And his 2nd season, he looked pretty darn "meh" but for the most part he's been productive in changing offenses over quite a few seasons playing with Alex Smith, or worse, at quarterback.

Right now, he's a top 5 TE, which is probably more than we can say for Finley.

[Pugger]

Nods.

One positive I saw @ the end of the year was that Burnett seemed to be in better position more often. Hope something started clicking for him that will carry over.

Yes, Burnett's play improved and he could tackle much better without that cast. Having a normal offseason is going to help him and our other young players this year.

[Pugger]

Not to troll, but yeah, you are mistaken. He wasn't always considered a top-10 tight end. And his 2nd season, he looked pretty darn "meh" but for the most part he's been productive in changing offenses over quite a few seasons playing with Alex Smith, or worse, at quarterback.

Right now, he's a top 5 TE, which is probably more than we can say for Finley.

Yes, if you think about it, SF doesn't have many other options besides Crabtree and their QB isn't all that hot either.

I'm hoping Finley's play will improve after he is signed. I truly think he was pressing this season knowing this was a contract year. Some guys become motivated and play better than than normal in contract years and others try too hard and their play suffers.

[Tarlam!]

The only player in that draft turned out to be Super Mario.

[pbmax]

Also remember, that Davis was being coached by Singletary, whose coaching method involves completely forgetting the object of the game in order to stress team first attitude and togetherness. The results speak for themselves.

In a way, he is the anti-Herm Edwards.

[pbmax]

The only player in that draft turned out to be Super Mario.

Who has been hurt quite a lot. Some years, the all the picks in the 7th round strategy might be the soundest of all.

[Joemailman]

Not to troll, but yeah, you are mistaken. He wasn't always considered a top-10 tight end. And his 2nd season, he looked pretty darn "meh" but for the most part he's been productive in changing offenses over quite a few seasons playing with Alex Smith, or worse, at quarterback.

Right now, he's a top 5 TE, which is probably more than we can say for Finley.

Davis caught fire in the playoffs, but he and Finley had very similar numbers in the regular season. Both are top 5 in ability, but not quite in production. I'd take Finley, who is 3 years younger than Davis and has a better attitude IMO.

[Brandon494]

Finley also has Rodgers throwing to him and plays on a pass first team.

[ThunderDan]

He was never considered a bust and has never had a good QB in SF while he has been there. Also I heard the interview and while he did credit himself he didn't throw his team under the bus. Thankfully Hawk is a team first guy and packer people, who needs talent anyway in the NFL. Guys defending Hawk are delusional.

Hasn't Alex Smith always been his QB?

[Cheesehead Craig]

For the love of Brian Williams, Hawk can cover a TE better than Peprah.
Ok, this quote is awesome, love the Williams' reference.


He plays just as well as any other of our LBs in coverage, tackles better than most on our defense, and gets pushed back because he's taking on linemen that walked past the DE and/or looked at Walden causing him to fall over.

Hawk never has been a "playmaker" as you Madden guys like to label players. He's a solid part of a functional defense and a reliable teammate. On a dysfunctional defense, his weakness can be exploited just like any other player. On a terrible defense, like GB's, he was often the first defender to make contact, which shouldn't be his role, because the guys in front of him were massive failures and a guy or two behind him couldn't cover a dead man with a sheet.

I've never cared much one way or the other about Hawk. But pinning the failure of the defense this season on him and pretending his play is solely a cause of that failure instead of a result of it, demonstrates a poor understanding of his role in this defense.

Very well said. I still have a soft spot for Hawk and hope he can have a better season next year.

There's easily 3 other positions on defense that are in much greater need of upgrades and help than one of our ILBs.

[pbmax]

Finley also has Rodgers throwing to him and plays on a pass first team.

True, but until Ted Ginn was unburied, Davis had precious little competition for his catches. Finley had a different problem. Number of targets might tell us more.

[Joemailman]

TT might not have taken Finley in the 3rd round of 2008 if he had taken Davis in 2006. Hawk + Finley>Davis + Reggie Smith.

[ThunderDan]

I've done this in other Hawk hating threads but Brandon494 you are so wrong.

2006: Hawk 119 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 INTs, 1 FF Davis 20 receptions 265 yards 3 TDS Better Year: Hawk by far
2007: Hawk 105 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT, 1 FF Davis 52 rec, 509 yards, 4 TDs Better Year: Even
2008: Hawk 86 tackles, 3 sacks Davis 31 rec, 358 yards, 2 TDs Better Year: Hawk
2009: Hawk 89 tackles, 1 sack, 2 INTs Davis 78 rec, 965 yards, 13 TDs Better Year: Davis by far
2010: Hawk 111 tackles, .5 sacks, 3 INTs Davis 56 rec, 914 yards, 7 TDs Better Year: Even
2011: Hawk 84 tackles, 1.5 sacks Davis 67 recs, 792 yards, 6 TDs Better Year: Davis by far

I have stated that Hawk played like shit this year. But saying that Hawk has sucked every year or that Davis has had a much better career is disingenious.

Hopefully, because it is going to be costly to cut him, Hawk goes back to playing like he has and 2011 was just a bad year all around for our D.

[smuggler]

Thompson takes the best available. We were going to draft Finley in 2008 no matter what, because he fell way below his talent slot due to character concerns and age/immaturity.

[SkinBasket]

I'm not blaming him for our defense sucking ass this year at all I've just always thought he was overrated and not worth what he is making. He proved that greatly this season especially when 6th round rookies steps in and play better than you. As for him tackling better than most on the team is a joke. If not for him missing a wide open tackle first game of the season Tramon Williams doesn't get his shoulder injured which hurt his play all season. Not trying to put blame on Hawk but I can remember more plays this season of him fucking up then him making positive plays.

I think he's worth what he's making. Again, the defense fell apart around him and Bishop, who should both be able to flow to plays when everyone else is doing their job. Instead he found himself dropping deeper into coverages to compensate for Peprah's awfulness, and being blocked by not only TEs, but FBs and linemen. Doesn't matter who you are, you're not winning a battle against a lineman very often, if ever, as an ILB. Yeah, a rookie looked nice on some plays, but he also looked like a rookie on others. It seems your memory is being selective in a negative regard to Hawk and a positive regard to DJ or whoever that guy was. Or maybe you're just a racist, I don't know.

Blaming Hawk for Tramon's inability to tackle like anything other than a 120 pound woman is just being silly.

[sharpe1027]

He proved that greatly this season especially when 6th round rookies steps in and play better than you.

The same argument could be made with Rodgers and Flynn... :)

IMO, it is too small of a sample size to say that the backups were better than the starters in either case.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Hawk is better than the players behind him, but he is far from irreplaceable and has a big contract.

[Brandon494]

I've done this in other Hawk hating threads but Brandon494 you are so wrong.

2006: Hawk 119 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 INTs, 1 FF Davis 20 receptions 265 yards 3 TDS Better Year: Hawk by far
2007: Hawk 105 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT, 1 FF Davis 52 rec, 509 yards, 4 TDs Better Year: Even
2008: Hawk 86 tackles, 3 sacks Davis 31 rec, 358 yards, 2 TDs Better Year: Hawk
2009: Hawk 89 tackles, 1 sack, 2 INTs Davis 78 rec, 965 yards, 13 TDs Better Year: Davis by far
2010: Hawk 111 tackles, .5 sacks, 3 INTs Davis 56 rec, 914 yards, 7 TDs Better Year: Even
2011: Hawk 84 tackles, 1.5 sacks Davis 67 recs, 792 yards, 6 TDs Better Year: Davis by far

I have stated that Hawk played like shit this year. But saying that Hawk has sucked every year or that Davis has had a much better career is disingenious.

Hopefully, because it is going to be costly to cut him, Hawk goes back to playing like he has and 2011 was just a bad year all around for our D.

I don't know how many times I've said this but stats don't always tell the whole truth. It's not even a question to who the better football player is. Some here are just being bias because they are fans but not me. Exactly what are Hawks strengths in his game? I already know the answer that you guys are going to tell me and you don't draft players #5 overall or pay them 5M a year for being assignment sure.

[Brandon494]

I'm not saying cut the guy because it would save us little cap but I do believe it was a mistake to resign him to that contract especially when he got overplayed on his first rookie contract.

[sharpe1027]

If you get a guy that is assignment sure at #5, you are probably doing better than average -- based upon that list of other #5s earlier in the thread.

I would agree that Vernon Davis is currently playing better than Hawk, however, I can't really complain when we have Finley. At the end of the day, I don't give a rat's ass which guy was drafter higher or even where any of the players were drafted. The results are the same on the field. We don't get bonus points for having a low pick play better and we don't get penalty points for a higher pick playing worse.

[ThunderDan]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?


I don't know how many times I've said this but stats don't always tell the whole truth. It's not even a question to who the better football player is. Some here are just being bias because they are fans but not me. Exactly what are Hawks strengths in his game? I already know the answer that you guys are going to tell me and you don't draft players #5 overall or pay them 5M a year for being assignment sure.

It sure seems like over and over and over you are pining on how the Packers should have drafted Davis becaue he is the much better player.

[ThunderDan]

I don't know how many times I've said this but stats don't always tell the whole truth. It's not even a question to who the better football player is. Some here are just being bias because they are fans but not me. Exactly what are Hawks strengths in his game? I already know the answer that you guys are going to tell me and you don't draft players #5 overall or pay them 5M a year for being assignment sure.

So you pay a TE $7.4M/year for 67 catches and 6 TDs? Talk about the crazy contract.

[ThunderDan]

During Vernon Davis's first three years in the NFL he got paid (on avergage) $133,980 per reception.

[woodbuck27]

Patrick Peterson
Eric Berry
Mark Sanchez
Glenn Dorsey
Levi Brown
A.J. Hawk
Cadillac Williams
Sean Taylor
Terrance Newman
Quentin Jammer
La Dainian Tomlinson


Hawk isn't the only lousy #5 in the past decade, but look at what lousy #5s have meant to the failures of other teams as well.

Those of us who wanted Vernon Davis are vindicated. Hawk is football refuse.

Vernon Davis just looked so good to me. Imagine his leadership in OUR locker room and on the field. Imagine him paired with Aaron Rodgers...mmmmm Ohh Lordy. AJ Hawk plays lazy. Somehow his motor as a College player didn't translate to us as a Pro. IMO his play as an 'Impact Player' hasn't materialized. As TT's NO. 5 pick he's never made the transition to the NFL and considering the play of Vernon Davis alone; AJ HAWK is just an ordinary LBer with a great name.

[ThunderDan]

So you pay a TE $7.4M/year for 67 catches and 6 TDs? Talk about the crazy contract.

No wonder Finley wants the monster contract (My projecting). 12 less catches, 2 more TDs and 25 yards less that should be worth $7M per year. Just think how much Graham in NO will cost.

[Smidgeon]

Did we really pick AJ Hawk over Vernon Davis?

Can you imagine Davis and Finley on the same team? :|

[Smidgeon]

Not because hes white just over hyped coming out of Ohio State. Also at the time we were weak at TE, Favre needed another play maker, and Davis ran 4.3 which doesn't come around very often for a TE.

Hawk also had an amazing Combine workout. And in his case, the numbers didn't translate to the pros. Sadly.

[Smidgeon]

The guy with the freakish athleticism who wept with joy when we didn't draft him...

Forgot about that.

[Brandon494]

ThunderDan disagrees with me, now I know I'm right for sure. :)

[woodbuck27]

Can you imagine Davis and Finley on the same team? :|

What are you imagining? The 1996 Packer team had it going on at TE when we fortunately signed
Keith Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Jackson_(tight_end)) to utilize with Mark Chmura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Chmura). That worked out real good.

[Brandon494]

BTW your crazy if you don't think David would have better numbers if he had been playing with GB with Farve and Rodgers instead of having Alex Smith, Troy Smith, and Shaun Hill at QB along with a new offensive coordinator each of the past five years.

Woody said it best, Hawk is a average LB with a great name.

[Brandon494]

Can you imagine Davis and Finley on the same team? :|

Look what Tom Brady is doing in NE with two great TEs plus the receivers we have.... WOW!

[woodbuck27]

Forgot about that.

Be careful. MJ Ziggy bought the ' Ted Thompson is ALMOST GOD ', T-Shirt. (-;

[Brandon494]

Blaming Hawk for Tramon's inability to tackle like anything other than a 120 pound woman is just being silly.

If Hawk makes his easy tackle Tramon Williams doesn't get his arm tangled up with Burnett when making the tackle. I know it's hard for you to bash white players but even Mr Magoo could see that Hawk sucks balls this year.

[Brandon494]

Forgot about that.

Exactly who cries when the team that you don't want to draft you doesn't? He was crying because his dream of becoming a NFL player came true but you guys can reach and make up stuff if you want to try to validate picking Hawk over him.

[red]

Not to troll, but yeah, you are mistaken. He wasn't always considered a top-10 tight end. And his 2nd season, he looked pretty darn "meh" but for the most part he's been productive in changing offenses over quite a few seasons playing with Alex Smith, or worse, at quarterback.

Right now, he's a top 5 TE, which is probably more than we can say for Finley.

actually i was off by a year. he looked like a bust for his first 3 years not 4. he started looking good in 2009 not 2010

the numbers he put up his first 3 years are pretty horrible for a TE taken #6 overall

i don't care if he had smith on montana throwing to him, he was easily should have been the #1 target on that team from day 1

and if you want to play the game about hawk being outplayed by late rounders or hawk not living up to his draft possition

how has davis lived up to being taken #6 overall? both finely and jimmy graham were both drafted near the end of the 3rd round. graham had a much better year. gronkowski had a much better year, he was a second rounder. whitten was a 3rd rounder. hernandez was a 4th rounder. fred davis (2nd), celek (5th), and keller (1st round pick 30)

they all had more yards the davis this year (except fin) they were all drafted much later then davis was.

you can say hawk has not lived up to the place where he got picked (and he hasn't) but you would also have to say that, to this point, davis also hasn't played up to the level that a #6 should be at

[ThunderDan]

If Hawk makes his easy tackle Tramon Williams doesn't get his arm tangled up with Burnett when making the tackle. I know it's hard for you to bash white players but even Mr Magoo could see that Hawk sucks balls this year.

Didn't see you bagging on Lee last year.

[SkinBasket]

Exactly who cries when the team that you don't want to draft you doesn't? He was crying because his dream of becoming a NFL player came true but you guys can reach and make up stuff if you want to try to validate picking Hawk over him.

Watch the interview. Funny how the guy who says stats don't tell the whole story so he can just make up arguments is accusing others of "making stuff up." Like I said before, you're the black Partial and vernon davis obviously just has the "it" factor." It's a very compelling argument.

[SkinBasket]

If Hawk makes his easy tackle Tramon Williams doesn't get his arm tangled up with Burnett when making the tackle. I know it's hard for you to bash white players but even Mr Magoo could see that Hawk sucks balls this year.

And if Hawk makes the tackle maybe it causes a molecular instability in the fabric of time and space and the world explodes and we never find out if Tramon makes a tackle this season or not. You left the reservation, or plantation, a couple pages ago. Time to get back to reality, friend.

[Smidgeon]

Well damn TT fucked up on this one, should have let Hawk go and use the money to resign Jenkins or another pass rushing threat.

I am going on the record of speculating that Jenkins will be a JAG next year. I have nothing to base this on. Just idle speculation. I think it will be his "year too late" and resigning him would be a waste. However, I'm all for getting a younger pass rushing threat.

[Smidgeon]

Not to troll, but yeah, you are mistaken. He wasn't always considered a top-10 tight end. And his 2nd season, he looked pretty darn "meh" but for the most part he's been productive in changing offenses over quite a few seasons playing with Alex Smith, or worse, at quarterback.

Right now, he's a top 5 TE, which is probably more than we can say for Finley.

Weren't there some scouts out there quoted this year as saying that Finley is the second most feared TE when game planning against him? I think it was one of McGinn's scouts, but the guy said that even if he doesn't have the production, he still demands the coverage and gameplanning because he's that talented.

[Smidgeon]

Look what Tom Brady is doing in NE with two great TEs plus the receivers we have.... WOW!

That's exactly what I was thinking. :D

[ThunderDan]

Saw a quote last week that went something like this.

"Wouldn't it be great to know every correct personnel move to make, which player was due for a clutch hit and when to pull your starting pitcher. The problem is that guy is sitting in the 5th row and he won't put his beer down."

[red]

I am going on the record of speculating that Jenkins will be a JAG next year. I have nothing to base this on. Just idle speculation. I think it will be his "year too late" and resigning him would be a waste. However, I'm all for getting a younger pass rushing threat.

does that have anything to do with the fact that he was a JAG for the last 3/4's of this season?

he had 1.5 total sacks after week 3

we got that kind of production from our own shit

[woodbuck27]

does that have anything to do with the fact that he was a JAG for the last 3/4's of this season?

he had 1.5 total sacks after week 3

we got that kind of production from our own shit

http://www.nfl.com/player/cullenjenkins/2505363/profile

[red]

http://www.nfl.com/player/cullenjenkins/2505363/profile

whats your point woody?

you just gave me a link to stats that i looked at for my post. 5.5 sacks on the year. 4 sacks in the first 3 games. 1.5 in the final 13 games

[Brandon494]

Didn't see you bagging on Lee last year.

Lee who? Pat Lee? Our 5th DB who was hardly ever on the field?

[denverYooper]

Vernon Davis just looked so good to me. Imagine his leadership in OUR locker room and on the field. Imagine him paired with Aaron Rodgers...mmmmm Ohh Lordy. AJ Hawk plays lazy. Somehow his motor as a College player didn't translate to us as a Pro. IMO his play as an 'Impact Player' hasn't materialized. As TT's NO. 5 pick he's never made the transition to the NFL and considering the play of Vernon Davis alone; AJ HAWK is just an ordinary LBer with a great name.

Davis looked like a real leader jumping onto the Giants player and headbutting him for a personal foul penalty last night.

[ThunderDan]

Lee who? Pat Lee? Our 5th DB who was hardly ever on the field?

Just shows how ignorant you really are that you even need to ask!

[Brandon494]

Watch the interview. Funny how the guy who says stats don't tell the whole story so he can just make up arguments is accusing others of "making stuff up." Like I said before, you're the black Partial and vernon davis obviously just has the "it" factor." It's a very compelling argument.

So I guess Vernan Davis was crying after his game winning catch against the Saints because he didn't have to do it in a Packers uniform huh? Look it's clear that Davis was not a fan of playing in Green Bay just like most players who grew up in bigger cities and a lot of players currently on our team. Vernon Davis just caught a game winning TD pass against the Saints and then had two yesterday in a game the 49ers should have won and you really want to debate Hawk was the right choice?

[Brandon494]

Just shows how ignorant you really are that you even need to ask!

I'm ignorant for asking a question? BTW we had two Lees on the team last year but I guess im just magically suppose to know which one your talking about right? And he calls me the ignorant one. :)

[denverYooper]

That's exactly what I was thinking. :D

I think GB was hoping for a similar tandem with Q and Fin.

[sharpe1027]

The Packers don't get less points on the scoreboard if one of their starters is a 5th overall pick and they don't get more points if one of their starters is a 6th rounder or even a street-free agent. You can try to blame Hawk for things out of his control, but where he got drafted is not his fault. I don't care if someone classifies him as a JAG. Is team is better with him than without him? I think so. Keep him until that changes.

[Brandon494]

Dude I don't care if he was the last pick in the 7th round the dude is not good and has always been overrated because of his name.

[sharpe1027]

Do you care if he helps the team or is it more important how "rated" he is?

[ThunderDan]

I'm ignorant for asking a question? BTW we had two Lees on the team last year but I guess im just magically suppose to know which one your talking about right? And he calls me the ignorant one. :)

For the biggest Finley fan we have on this board you sure are unaware.

Donald Lee was the player that blew JF knee out last year (by your logic). You blame Hawk for Tramon but not a peep about Donald Lee last year.

[pbmax]

Instead he found himself dropping deeper into coverages to compensate for Peprah's awfulness,

Was he doing Peprah's job or Hawk's? Because when there were linebackers who could cover (Chillar, Barnett) they drew that responsibility, not Collins/Burnett/Peprah.


However, everyone is missing the larger point and letting Bob McGinn (and the headline writer and photo editor) win. He's the dope who predicted dynasty. He also cannot alienate the offense (QB, HC, best WR and most respected player-DD) despite the offense falling on its face toward the end of the season. So he's now taking on Hawk and everyone is taking the bait of a high draft pick who might be overvalued. Its like catnip to football fans without their football team.

Yes, the defense has more problems than the offense, but Hawk isn't in the top five priorities to solve this offseason. Derek Sherrod's leg is more important.

Everyone should email Robert and tell him to stop agonizing over a middle of the road player with a big contract (Poppinga? KGB? Barnett?), unbunch his under garments and figure out whether the secondary needs to be stripped and refurbished or all of their coaches sent to Miami/Oakland/Tampa Bay. Or if Thompson possesses the wherewithal to actually draft a front 7 player who succeeds outside of Matthews, Raji and Jolly in seven years of drafts.

Because if the latter case is true, we all owe a big apology to wist. :lol:

[Brandon494]

Do you care if he helps the team or is it more important how "rated" he is?

Exactly how much is he helping our team is the real question.

[Joemailman]

James Stewart of Carolina was hurdling Hawk who was on the ground when he came down on top of Nick Collins' head. A.J. Hawk may have ended Collins' career.

[Brandon494]

For the biggest Finley fan we have on this board you sure are unaware.

Donald Lee was the player that blew JF knee out last year (by your logic). You blame Hawk for Tramon but not a peep about Donald Lee last year.

Ha might want to go back and check because not only was I at the game but I bashed Lee hard for that play.

[pbmax]

Weren't there some scouts out there quoted this year as saying that Finley is the second most feared TE when game planning against him? I think it was one of McGinn's scouts, but the guy said that even if he doesn't have the production, he still demands the coverage and gameplanning because he's that talented.

Well, not to go too far bashing Bob today, but one of his scout sources was just fired by Irsay in Indianapolis for failing as a GM. So, even Bob's scouts get it wrong occasionally.

Much of the NFL is not simply picking winners in the draft, but players that work in a system that the coach can reach and can work with their teammates.

Finley may be the second most feared TE for DCs, but he is dead last among receivers in having a rapport with his QB on the team. Neither seemed on the same page this year. It has happened to other WRs and Rodgers before (Jennings comes to mind at the beginning of last year) but none of the other dry spells have lasted as long as Finley's has.

[Brandon494]

I'm not blaming Hawk for our defense playing like shit but that still doesn't change the fact that he sucks and should not have been resigned to the deal he got.

[Pugger]

They may not have connected on the gridiron often enough but everything I've ever read seems to point to AR and Finley getting along just fine.

[smuggler]

Is team is better with him than without him? I think so. Keep him until that changes.

This is true, but the problem is the guy has a great sense of pride and I'm not sure he can be trusted to be healthy for the team as a backup. The play of Francois and DJ Smith was about equal with Hawk, worse against the run, but better against the pass. However, those guys are young and have upside. They should be seeing more snaps next season and Hawk should be seeing less.

[George Cumby]

Was he doing Peprah's job or Hawk's? Because when there were linebackers who could cover (Chillar, Barnett) they drew that responsibility, not Collins/Burnett/Peprah.


However, everyone is missing the larger point and letting Bob McGinn (and the headline writer and photo editor) win. He's the dope who predicted dynasty. He also cannot alienate the offense (QB, HC, best WR and most respected player-DD) despite the offense falling on its face toward the end of the season. So he's now taking on Hawk and everyone is taking the bait of a high draft pick who might be overvalued. Its like catnip to football fans without their football team.

Yes, the defense has more problems than the offense, but Hawk isn't in the top five priorities to solve this offseason. Derek Sherrod's leg is more important.

Everyone should email Robert and tell him to stop agonizing over a middle of the road player with a big contract (Poppinga? KGB? Barnett?), unbunch his under garments and figure out whether the secondary needs to be stripped and refurbished or all of their coaches sent to Miami/Oakland/Tampa Bay. Or if Thompson possesses the wherewithal to actually draft a front 7 player who succeeds outside of Matthews, Raji and Jolly in seven years of drafts.

Because if the latter case is true, we all owe a big apology to wist. :lol:

end of thread

[mraynrand]

The Packers don't get less points on the scoreboard if one of their starters is a 5th overall pick and they don't get more points if one of their starters is a 6th rounder or even a street-free agent. You can try to blame Hawk for things out of his control, but where he got drafted is not his fault. I don't care if someone classifies him as a JAG. Is team is better with him than without him? I think so. Keep him until that changes.

I think he might still provide quality depth behind Francois or Smith next year

[mraynrand]

. He's the dope who predicted dynasty.

Why not? 15-1, an offense that was rolling. Take away the stupid drops and fumbles, and they're likely still playing. Whose to say they won't come back and win it all next year? Plus, McGinn doesn't get paid to write weasely boring articles: "Packers will play extremely well next year, but fall short" That's compelling! It was a reasonable prediction.

[SkinBasket]

So I guess Vernan Davis was crying after his game winning catch against the Saints because he didn't have to do it in a Packers uniform huh?

I doubt it. But then again, no one's talking about that. Are you trying to demonstrate that because every time he cries, it's not about going to Green Bay, therefore he couldn't have been crying about that years ago when he was drafted? Are you retarded?


Look it's clear that Davis was not a fan of playing in Green Bay just like most players who grew up in bigger cities and a lot of players currently on our team. Vernon Davis just caught a game winning TD pass against the Saints and then had two yesterday in a game the 49ers should have won and you really want to debate Hawk was the right choice?

You're the one dealing in fantasy and what-ifs. I stated that I don't believe that drafting him would have improved this team any more than drafting Hawk did. Mostly because he's a cry-baby pussy, partly because he hasn't been nearly as dominant as you seem to believe, and despite your fact-ignoring, stat-denying memory driven evaluations, Hawk has contributed to this team, and it's success, over the past several years. you can wish and speculate all you want. A butterfly flaps it's wings and Vernon Davis farts.

[SkinBasket]

James Stewart of Carolina was hurdling Hawk who was on the ground when he came down on top of Nick Collins' head. A.J. Hawk may have ended Collins' career.

May have my ass! Let's not forget that if Clay Mathews had forced a turnover every play, then that play wouldn't have happened. And he sucked this season. Fire him.

[Smidgeon]

Once again proving that Hawk is a divisive figure amongst the Packers fan base.

And that's why McGinn wrote the article. Reader response.

[Smidgeon]

I think GB was hoping for a similar tandem with Q and Fin.

I think you're right. And I'm still hoping for that. Hopefully Quarless heals well and benefits from studying in the offseason.

[Smidgeon]

Well, not to go too far bashing Bob today, but one of his scout sources was just fired by Irsay in Indianapolis for failing as a GM. So, even Bob's scouts get it wrong occasionally.

Much of the NFL is not simply picking winners in the draft, but players that work in a system that the coach can reach and can work with their teammates.

Finley may be the second most feared TE for DCs, but he is dead last among receivers in having a rapport with his QB on the team. Neither seemed on the same page this year. It has happened to other WRs and Rodgers before (Jennings comes to mind at the beginning of last year) but none of the other dry spells have lasted as long as Finley's has.

Excellent point. Why do you think that happened? They were completely on the same page in 2010 and the end of 2009.

[pbmax]

Why not? 15-1, an offense that was rolling. Take away the stupid drops and fumbles, and they're likely still playing. Whose to say they won't come back and win it all next year? Plus, McGinn doesn't get paid to write weasely boring articles: "Packers will play extremely well next year, but fall short" That's compelling! It was a reasonable prediction.

Mainly, because predicting a dynasty is a tricky business. Especially because this year's team had a new hurdle of its own making to overcome. And it had never proved it could do that (though 15-1 through the regular season is a good start). Had they stumbled and faced road games, then predicting playoff success would make more sense based on experience.

The Packers may come back and win it all next year. They probably will be one of the top three favorites. But if they do, it won't be because Thompson solved the Hawk problem. I think it more likely he patches elsewhere.

[sharpe1027]

This is true, but the problem is the guy has a great sense of pride and I'm not sure he can be trusted to be healthy for the team as a backup. The play of Francois and DJ Smith was about equal with Hawk, worse against the run, but better against the pass. However, those guys are young and have upside. They should be seeing more snaps next season and Hawk should be seeing less.

The same argument could be made to get rid of Rodgers and go with Flynn. The main difference is that Rodgers and Flynn both played outstanding, while Hawk, Francois and Smith were each average. Why dump Hawk (or Rodgers) in favor of unproven guys (a couple games is a pretty small sample size)? If they outplay Hawk and he is pissed about not getting enough playing time, that's still a good thing since the team will have improved on the field. Hawk can always be moved/cut the following year (with less of an immediate cap hit).

[Pugger]

But Flynn is no where near as good as Rodgers or he'd be our starter and Rodgers would be the FA in a few weeks.

[sharpe1027]

But Flynn is no where near as good as Rodgers or he'd be our starter and Rodgers would be the FA in a few weeks.

But Francois is no where near as good as Hawk or he'd be our starter and Hawk would be the FA in a few weeks.

[Fritz]

The bigger picture, which PB mentions, is the picture of whether the secondary went AWOL because it got selfish or because it was trying to compensate for the lack of pass rush by creating turnovers. If it's the former, then the coaching staff needs to be called out. It's their job to stop players from being selfish. If it's because they felt the pressure to get a turnover because they knew offenses could march down the field against their (lack of) pass rush, then it's just a question of fixing the pass rush.

Neither is easy to resolve, but I hope it's the latter. As hard as it is to find good pass rushing linemen and linebackers, it's still easier than firing a defensive coach who's lost control of his defense and then finding a new guy to come in and take charge.

Hawk's Hawk. Not nearly as important as the above dilemma.

[red]

question to think about

if hawk was a 3rd round pick, you people still feel the same way about him?

no ones bitching about pat lee being a wasted pick . and he's next to worthless

[Fritz]

question to think about

if hawk was a 3rd round pick, you people still feel the same way about him?

no ones bitching about pat lee being a wasted pick . and he's next to worthless

Pat Lee's a wasted pick! He's useless! He's worthless!

Frickin' Pat Lee!

[Cheesehead Craig]

no ones bitching about pat lee being a wasted pick . and he's next to worthless

Is he standing next to Bush?

[red]

Is he standing next to Bush?

LOL

now that was clever

[mraynrand]

if hawk was a 3rd round pick, you people still feel the same way about him?


Of course not. It's exactly the point that he was a #5 that kills you. You have to suck pretty bad to get the #5 pick, so you want that guy to be a pro bowler, if not an all pro. Packers have been getting a top 10 pick about once every five years over the past two decades. That guy should be one of the best 5 guys on your team.

[sharpe1027]

I disagree with the premise that a player needs to be judged on his draft number. In the aggregate, higher picks will tend to be better players. Still, it is like judging an employees by comparing the schools they went to. In the aggregate, you would expect some from MIT to be a WAY better scientist than a high school drop out. Still, in the end all you should really care about is which is better regardless of school.

Same with players and their draft order. In the end, I don't care that much if Hawk is only marginally better than Francois despite that difference in draft status. I care that Hawk is better. I don't blame Hawk for other's decisions on his value at draft day. He tries just as hard as the long shot free agents, which tend to get publicity just for not falling down.

On the other hand, the high value of his contract is pertinent to the extent that the Packers had to sacrifice by not signing other players.

[Upnorth]

FWIW ill take hawk at 5 over harrell at 16 everyday of the week. Hawk is okay and better than most in our lb corp. I say we draft at least 2 lb's, but I don't see hawk being cut. He may not be the starter but still depth on the team.

[mraynrand]

I've seen people say hawk is "as good in coverage as our other LBs" as though that's 1) true and 2) something to be proud of. :roll: And I see people saying they'd rather have picked Hawk over VD, even given the results of the past years. Hawk has never been more than just OK. Followig his injury in 2008, he's been an absolute liability in coverage. They hardly even let him cover even the slowest sluggish TEs and Fullbacks. Bollard was almost too much for him. Hawk = Bleah!

http://s453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/?action=view&current=Bleah.mp4

[sharpe1027]

I would take Davis over Hawk. I'd still take Hawk over many other players.

[mraynrand]

you would expect some from MIT to be a WAY better scientist than a high school drop out. Still, in the end all you should really care about is which is better regardless of school.

Of course. But you take the guy from MIT because you expect him to be good. And he's gonna cost you a hell of a lot more, so he'd better be worth it.

The guys early in the draft are going to have measurables/attributes that you rarely can get in later rounds. Like a TE with 4.3 speed or a DE who is quick, tall and strong, and can play both pass and run.

You can get a Jennings lower down, but he's going to be missing something - like height. That's why the early guys are supposed to be game changers. Like VD. Not like Hawk.

[sharpe1027]

You can get a Jennings lower down, but he's going to be missing something - like height. That's why the early guys are supposed to be game changers. Like VD. Not like Hawk.

Expectations might be high, but what does it matter at this point? Sure, it gives you something to bitch and moan about, but last I checked a player that scores a touchdown still gets the same amount of points regardless of their draft position. Why all the hatred toward the Hawk because of his draft position? He wasn't the one making the decisions on the draft order.

[MJZiggy]

Exactly who cries when the team that you don't want to draft you doesn't? He was crying because his dream of becoming a NFL player came true but you guys can reach and make up stuff if you want to try to validate picking Hawk over him.

He cried when Green Bay picked, not when SF did. I watched that draft. As soon as Goodell headed to the podium, Davis was blubbering all over the place and SF HADN'T CALLED HIM YET. He had not been drafted yet. ALL he knew at that point was that he wasn't going to Green Bay. And I also don't remember Charles shedding a single tear about coming to GB. He may not have wanted to at first, but as best I can tell, tissues were entirely unnecessary in his case...

[Bretsky]

question to think about

if hawk was a 3rd round pick, you people still feel the same way about him?

no ones bitching about pat lee being a wasted pick . and he's next to worthless


Some of the disdain for Hawk is clearly because he had one decent year, got big money.....arguably way too much, followed that witha shitty season, and now we're stuck with him and his deal.

[mission]

Did you guys see old-ass Ray Lewis run down the seam and cover a WR on a post pattern last night? I know he's a HOFer, but they're always talking about how he's lost some steps and is basically done. The guy ran with a WR. I'd take just being able to run with a TE!

[mission]

Some of the disdain for Hawk is clearly because he had one decent year, got big money.....arguably way too much, followed that witha shitty season, and now we're stuck with him and his deal.

most of it, spot on.

[MadtownPacker]

Is he standing next to Bush?
Ha! Winner right there!

On the fence about Hawk. Really the token White boy LB role is covered by Clayster. If he can be traded for some kinds of DL help do it.

[MadtownPacker]

Did you guys see old-ass Ray Lewis run down the seam and cover a WR on a post pattern last night? I know he's a HOFer, but they're always talking about how he's lost some steps and is basically done. The guy ran with a WR. I'd take just being able to run with a TE!
No shit, that MFer's still a bad SOB. BS that bitch brady goes to the SB instead of RayRay.

[Brandon494]

question to think about

if hawk was a 3rd round pick, you people still feel the same way about him?

no ones bitching about pat lee being a wasted pick . and he's next to worthless

I would feel the same way even if he was a 3rd round pick because he sucks. People don't bitch about Pat Lee because except for special teams hes on the bench, his salary is only 500k, and he was not just resigned to a large contract.

[Brandon494]

He cried when Green Bay picked, not when SF did. I watched that draft. As soon as Goodell headed to the podium, Davis was blubbering all over the place and SF HADN'T CALLED HIM YET. He had not been drafted yet. ALL he knew at that point was that he wasn't going to Green Bay. And I also don't remember Charles shedding a single tear about coming to GB. He may not have wanted to at first, but as best I can tell, tissues were entirely unnecessary in his case...

Sorry but that's not how it happened. I remember him breaking down right after the 49ers called his name, he was not crying for joy because GB skipped over him.

[MadtownPacker]

Yeah, davis is just like B494. He hates the Packers. :lol:

[th87]

I remember the defense playing better with Francois in the lineup. He got 2 interceptions in his limited time.

AJ Hawk came back against KC and we suddenly could not cover the intermediate routes.

Coincidence?

[mraynrand]

Expectations might be high, but what does it matter at this point? Sure, it gives you something to bitch and moan about, but last I checked a player that scores a touchdown still gets the same amount of points regardless of their draft position. Why all the hatred toward the Hawk because of his draft position? He wasn't the one making the decisions on the draft order.

Simply because you're supposed to get a great player there. We got a dud. I don't 'hate' Hawk. I just don't like that the Packers sucked enough to get a #5 and didn't get a special player out of it.

[Gunakor]

Simply because you're supposed to get a great player there. We got a dud. I don't 'hate' Hawk. I just don't like that the Packers sucked enough to get a #5 and didn't get a special player out of it.


It's a fair argument that we didn't get what was advertised with that pick. But we didn't get a dud. Ryan Leaf is a dud. Tim Couch is a dud. Most of the WR's Millen drafted in Detroit were duds. Hawk hasn't lived up to expectations but was still a starting ILB on a top 5 defense that brought home the bacon. If he were drafted in the 3rd round everyone would be perfectly happy with that, would they not? At what point does Hawk's draft position many years ago become irrelevant to the game being played today?

[SkinBasket]

No shit, that MFer's still a bad SOB. BS that bitch brady goes to the SB instead of RayRay.

RayRay is a HoMo.

[woodbuck27]

I remember the defense playing better with Francois in the lineup. He got 2 interceptions in his limited time.

AJ Hawk came back against KC and we suddenly could not cover the intermediate routes.

Coincidence?

http://www.packers.com/team/roster/Robert-Francois/86d90ced-d871-4383-9e6b-d9d42a59c66d

[Smeefers]

I think when talking about Hawk's draft pick, it's important to look at the time he was drafted. It was TT's second year. Our talent pool was horrible and we didn't have another linebacker besides Barnett. We had a lot of guys who were just starting to come into their own and there was still a lot of mistakes being made, but Hawk came in like a 5 year vet and actually lead the team in tackles. This is the first year where he wasn't in the top 3 for tackles on our team. When he came out, nobody said he was going to be a game changer, they said he was a safe pick, a solid starter and I don't see any evidence to contrary. I still see him as a solid player, a work horse. This year, he was an average player, but I think this is the worst year he's had. If that's his bottom, well then I think he's worth what we pay him.

[Brandon494]

It's a fair argument that we didn't get what was advertised with that pick. But we didn't get a dud. Ryan Leaf is a dud. Tim Couch is a dud. Most of the WR's Millen drafted in Detroit were duds. Hawk hasn't lived up to expectations but was still a starting ILB on a top 5 defense that brought home the bacon. If he were drafted in the 3rd round everyone would be perfectly happy with that, would they not? At what point does Hawk's draft position many years ago become irrelevant to the game being played today?

Those guys were bust not duds and picking a QB and MLB with a top 5 pick is completely different. Drafting QBs is a complete crapshoot. As far as Hawk being #5 pick taken overall no one cares anymore, the days of hoping for him to be the next Urlacher are long gone. This guy is barely a starter anymore. He's not a playmaker, he makes no impactful plays, he sucks in coverage, and he's overpaid. Yet some want to give him a pass because he has a cool name or in skins case because hes white, has blonde hair, and blue eyes.

[pbmax]

This doesn't answer the question completely, but this horrible phone video does show Vernon crying before the 49ers picks, however, its right before the 49ers pick, which means he had already received the call. I think the relief over the Packers not taking him comment came later in an interview.

But we can't know when he started crying. Someone with better You Tube search skills than me will have to help.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYea3zb1WOs

[KYPack]

Hawk will most likely return to the Pack next season. It willprobably be his last go round here, but I’ve thought that before. Cutting AJ would yield a 6.4 million $ caphit. You will also have to pay a playerto replace him on the roster & in the line-up. The cap hit for retaining his services is 6 million. So it will save 400 grand to keep the boy around. At least we now have our own 6 million dollar man.

Does the performance issue outweigh the cost savings?

Many think it does.

[denverYooper]

Hawk will be fine after an offseason in the hyperbaric chamber.

[sharpe1027]

Those guys were bust not duds and picking a QB and MLB with a top 5 pick is completely different. Drafting QBs is a complete crapshoot. As far as Hawk being #5 pick taken overall no one cares anymore, the days of hoping for him to be the next Urlacher are long gone. This guy is barely a starter anymore. He's not a playmaker, he makes no impactful plays, he sucks in coverage, and he's overpaid. Yet some want to give him a pass because he has a cool name or in skins case because hes white, has blonde hair, and blue eyes.

Let's be honest here. People are saying that from day 1 he's been dependable, if only average, as a starter. That's not exactly giving him a pass.

My understanding is that he has a rather unglamorous roll in Caper's D, which explains at least some of his lack of playmaking. Again, I'm not saying he is an all-pro, but perhaps there is more to his play than big hits and INTs. Which 3-4 ILBers in the NFL can we compare Hawk too rather than just talking in the abstract?

[Tony Oday]

TT gave him another contract so I will go with the professionals that actually know what the fuck they are doin

[Brandon494]

TT gave him another contract so I will go with the professionals that actually know what the fuck they are doin

Yea because professionals never "fuck up".

[pbmax]

Yea because professionals never "fuck up".

The average is better on second contracts. But its not perfect (Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman).

[Deputy Nutz]

I love how some of you can either completely over look reason because it goes against your argument, or you're too stupid to understand it.

[sharpe1027]

I love how some of you can either completely over look reason because it goes against your argument, or you're too stupid to understand it.

Thank you for your insightful contribution.

[mraynrand]

You gotta love a thread where people are debating about exactly when Vernon Davis started crying seven years ago. Once Patler brings his evidence to bear from the Zapruder video, you'll know we've passed the Rubicon of offseason boredom lowpoints. And we're not even out of January yet.

[mraynrand]

Again, I'm not saying he is an all-pro

baby steps, baby steps


Which 3-4 ILBers in the NFL can we compare Hawk too rather than just talking in the abstract? I'd post a list of about 50-60 who are better, but why belabor the point?

[ND72]

Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk? Huh? Oh wait its the guy with the man crush on Hawk, didn't recognize you with the new avatar.

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

[ND72]

Damn well if we are unable to cut him hopefully some sucker will take him off our hands.

NFL rules are the same if you cut or trade a guy..guaranteed money is guaranteed money by the signing team. Still count $6.4 mil against. (I know others mentioned this as well...my bad)

[ND72]

If we pick Davis, history doesn't unfold as it does, so I'm not upset about it now (I was then).

That said, watching SF play shows you what real ILBs look like.

OH Patrick Willis...how I wanted you even when we were still running a 4-3...

[denverYooper]

You gotta love a thread where people are debating about exactly when Vernon Davis started crying seven years ago. Once Patler brings his evidence to bear from the Zapruder video, you'll know we've passed the Rubicon of offseason boredom lowpoints. And we're not even out of January yet.

People have an abundance of energy that they expected to carry through the playoffs. They have to expend it in some way.

[ND72]

I'm not sure if this has been said...and I like the guy, but what has Winston Moss done for Hawk or Bishop? Bishop showed up last year, but seem as though his play leveled off and didn't continue to grow into this year, as did Hawk. Maybe him leaving would help those guys and bring in a new face at coach.

[sharpe1027]

I know that everyone likes to rely upon "playmaker" ability, "impact plays" claims that others are "stupid," and allegedly 50 better players, but here is some where to begin a discussion based upon an analysis of players at a similar position.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8208afee/article/willis-harrison-highlight-list-of-nfls-best-linebackers

Article by Pat Kirwan
Pat Kirwan began his NFL career in 1972 after coaching high school and college football. He spent eight years (1989-'97) with the New York Jets, beginning as a defensive assistant coach and advancing to director of player administration, where he negotiated contracts and managed the team's salary cap. Before his time with the Jets, Kirwan was an area scout for the Phoenix Cardinals (1989) and Tampa Bay Buccaneers (1983-'86).

The list has 20 players [***the article also lists the top ten OLBers, but I only pasted ILBers below***], which is only about 18 percent of the approximately 112 starting linebackers in the league. The result is a large number of players will end up in the honorable-mention category or nowhere on the list at all.

1. Ray Lewis, Ravens (v): It's straight to the Hall of Fame for Lewis, who still plays at a high level and has the most commanding presence on an NFL field. He was in on 139 total tackles in 2010 and had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 2 interceptions. His pass-coverage skills are not what they used to be, but still good enough to get the job done.

2. Jerod Mayo, Patriots (^): Led the NFL in the unofficial stat known as tackles with 175 last season. Mayo has great passion for the game, and he prepares like a young Lewis.

3. Lawrence Timmons, Steelers (>): Some would be surprised to see Timmons up this high, but he is overshadowed by all the great players on the Steelers' defense. Check his production in 2010 before you criticize this spot. Timmons had 135 tackles last year, 2 interceptions, 11 passes defended and 3 sacks. Time to recognize this young man.

4. Brian Urlacher, Bears (v): Is the heart and soul of the Chicago defense and possesses rare coverage skills. He struggles at times to disengage from blocks but still found a way to be in on 125 total tackles and deliver 4 sacks, 10 passes defended and register 10 tackles for a loss.


5. Patrick Willis, 49ers (>): Probably the best inside linebacker in the NFL. His 128 total tackles were overshadowed only by his 6 sacks, which was best among all inside linebackers.

GROUP B
6. Jon Beason, Panthers (>): A very smart player with a tremendous work ethic. Beason's ability to read keys and diagnose plays led to 121 total tackles, 8 passes defended, 8 tackles for a loss and 1 sack. He played without much talent up front last season and also lost fellow linebacker Thomas Davis to an injury.

7. Lance Briggs, Bears (>): Even Urlacher was quick to point out recently that Briggs doesn't get the credit he deserves for his excellent play. Briggs is a sideline-to-sideline, run-and-hit, weak-side linebacker who also is an excellent blitz rusher. He was credited with 89 total tackles in 2010 and had 7 passes defended, 2 sacks, 2 interceptions and 2 forced fumbles.

8. London Fletcher, Redskins (v): Fletcher, now 36, just keeps rolling along as one of the best at what he does. He was credited with 136 tackles last season, which is just another day at the office. He also defended 11 passes, which was better than Lewis and Urlacher.

9. Chad Greenway, Vikings (>): He plays the strong-side in the Vikings' 4-3 scheme and is as steady as they come. Greenway sees plays quickly and is rarely fooled by play-action. He was in on 144 total tackles last season, a big total considering he plays one side and teams often run away him. He also made 12 run stops behind the line of scrimmage last season.


10. Jonathan Vilma, Saints (>): The leader of the Saints' defense. Defensive coordinator Greg Williams has a complicated scheme, and Vilma's job is to quarterback the unit and make all the adjustments. He was in on 105 total tackles with a career-high 4 sacks in 2010. He had some competition for a top-10 spot from many on the honorable-mention list.

Honorable mention: David Harris (Jets), James Farrior (Steelers), Paul Posluszny (Bills), James Laurinitis (Rams), Curtis Lofton (Falcons), Derrick Johnson (Chiefs), Stephen Tulloch (Titans), A.J. Hawk (Packers).

[Brandon494]

That article is old as shit, I could tell that before even clicking the link.

[mraynrand]

He obviously likes Hawk better than Bishop. That's good enough for me. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

[denverYooper]

The article was from June 29, 2011. I wonder if Hawk would still be on there?

[sharpe1027]

That article is old as shit, I could tell that before even clicking the link.

It's 6 months old. Thanks for taking 2 seconds to consider the issue. Fuck it. I give up on this discussion.

[smuggler]

Pat Kirwan is an Xs and Os guy, not really a personnel guy. The fact that he has Mayo above David Hawthorne (who is not even on his list at all) speaks volumes about the worthlessness of that entire article.

[Cheesehead Craig]

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

Well said ND.

[pbmax]

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

Well said. Not sure about Moss. But agree with everything else. Hawk has been far more consistent than our opinion of him. He really only changed from Year 1 to 2 which is nothing odd at all. Then a new system in 09. As I said before he could be upgraded esp. in coverage, but there are bigger concerns.

[pbmax]

I love how some of you can either completely over look reason because it goes against your argument, or you're too stupid to understand it.

Rule #3: Don't tell us we are dumb. Write a post and make the argument. (yes, I know there are only two rules)

You are one of the most insightful on this board; post like it Nutz. Don't let those who disagree trip you up.

[pbmax]

You gotta love a thread where people are debating about exactly when Vernon Davis started crying seven years ago. Once Patler brings his evidence to bear from the Zapruder video, you'll know we've passed the Rubicon of offseason boredom lowpoints. And we're not even out of January yet.

I would rather watch the 2006 draft rebroadcast in its entirety than the Super Bowl, if that tells you where my head is at right now. :lol:

[SkinBasket]

If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting.

There goes this thread.

[Deputy Nutz]

Rule #3: Don't tell us we are dumb. Write a post and make the argument. (yes, I know there are only two rules)

You are one of the most insightful on this board; post like it Nutz. Don't let those who disagree trip you up.

Ah Fuck, when did we get rules?
I was going to chime in but then realized that Skinbasket posted my sermon that I delivered to him a few short weeks ago. So I stand behind everything Skinbasket posted, since well it was my sermon. Now I ain't calling Skinbasket a thief, just informed.

[SkinBasket]

Ah Fuck, when did we get rules?
I was going to chime in but then realized that Skinbasket posted my sermon that I delivered to him a few short weeks ago. So I stand behind everything Skinbasket posted, since well it was my sermon. Now I ain't calling Skinbasket a thief, just informed.

Your thoughts simply complemented my own. Well, fine - the lineman specific stuff might sound a little familiar, but you have trouble expressing yourself sometimes, so you should just thank me.

[Deputy Nutz]

Thank you.

[KYPack]

I love how some of you can either completely over look reason because it goes against your argument, or you're too stupid to understand it.

Now Nutz, don't get philosophical on us.

Lemme ask you a quick question, are you smart or stupid?

signed, concerned.

[Smidgeon]

Thank you.

:D

[th87]

Remember when Hawk was being phased out for Chillar? The trade rumors? It took an injury to both Chillar/Barnett for Hawk to get his PT back.

And again, the defense looked better with Francois. I think I'd rather gamble on growth at the position than the stagnant mediocrity currently.

[SkinBasket]

Remember when Hawk was being phased out for Chillar? The trade rumors? It took an injury to both Chillar/Barnett for Hawk to get his PT back.

And then he was praised for leading the LBs on a league leading defense. I remember that.

[th87]

This is true.

Just curious though - what do you think changed for him to drastically improve his performance?

[mraynrand]

I just remember him riding the pine in the season opener last year at Philly. If that didn't illustrate his limitations, what would?



edit: answer: his play on the field

[SkinBasket]

This is true.

Just curious though - what do you think changed for him to drastically improve his performance?

The stats have been posted that show it wasn't a drastic improvement in performance, so I'm not sure how one would answer a false premise such as it were.

[th87]

The stats have been posted that show it wasn't a drastic improvement in performance, so I'm not sure how one would answer a false premise such as it were.

So the coaches were wrong to phase him out?

[pbmax]

Hawk was caught in the backwash of a narrative. The defense was playing well and he was seeing less time on the field. To a writer, that means Hawk has been phased out and is not a starting caliber LB anymore. The next step would be to try to determine why.

But then injuries hit and the defense sagged a bit. His role increased and he almost stopped coming off the field when Barnett and Chillar were both hurt. And the defense started to play lights out again. To explain, writers asked players to tell them what Hawk was doing better than Barnett or Chillar - they all answered that he was a calm influence who made good calls.

Writers don't want to rock a boat that is not already rocking. So no one called out the damning with faint praise quality of his teammates comments. It was just assumed that he had elevated his game, it was usually attributed to motivation found after being benched.

Hawk hadn't really changed. But his circumstances did, his competition was injured and his teammates were playing lights out. Perhaps best for him was that Bishop was probably better than Barnett as an ILB.

I also believe that the defense last year was not as good as the absolute difference in the stats might show. I think the defense faced more challenging offenses this year compared to last.

[th87]

I'm obviously not the tactician you are, but my eyes keep showing me that Hawk seems slow, late, unable to disengage blockers, and can't seem to cover the Ballards of the world. Am I wrong that the defense seemed better with Francois in? And that when Hawk returned, the middle of the field was repeatedly exploited by Orton?

Even if Hawk is solid, there is no upside. I'd rather roll the dice with something new.

[SkinBasket]

So the coaches were wrong to phase him out?

I think you're making some rather large assumptions about the relatively small amount of time Hawk spent on the bench and/or had his playing time reduced, but I would also posit that he hasn't really had the same issue since, so perhaps if "phasing him out" was the intent of the coaching staff, which, again seems unlikely, then maybe they felt they were wrong.

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm obviously not the tactician you are, but my eyes keep showing me that Hawk seems slow, late, unable to disengage blockers, and can't seem to cover the Ballards of the world. Am I wrong that the defense seemed better with Francois in? And that when Hawk returned, the middle of the field was repeatedly exploited by Orton?

Even if Hawk is solid, there is no upside. I'd rather roll the dice with something new.

You are wrong, the defense didn't look better, you saw a guy drop into a zone coverage(covering space) and jump in the air and intercept a pass. He didn't have blanket coverage on any of his two interceptions, he was in space and the QB made an error in judgement. Francois took advantage.

Tell me how would you play when the whole right side of your defense collapses?
Hawk can't cover tight ends, but neither can Bishop, or Peprah, it is a serious flaw that gets the attention when their is no pass rush, and no Nick Collins. How was Woodson in covering tight ends this year? In reality Hawk and Bishop shouldn't be in on passing downs, it is a flaw I see in Capers system. Sure it works well when you have pressure and QBs don't have the time to wait on tight ends to get seperation, but that wasn't the case it got exploited this year, to everyone that was in coverage. Besides, if some of you actually watch the game and not just assume the guy that made the tackle is the one responsible for coverage you would see that half the time Hawk is covering the flat, or spying the running back coming out of the backfield.

I have blasted Hawk for his tackling in 2011, it was poor. He is usually a solid tackler and good at cleaning up the ball carrier. He has never been great in space, but he did a decent job in years past at finishing the play. But he was just like a pinball this season, bounce off ball carries, not wrappng up, and sometime just falling down. He has to get back to fundamentals.

I give Hawk one more season for the obvious salary cap reasons, I know some of you love to formulate ideas based on all the Madden you play, but in reality salary caps are part of the game, and the fact that Hawk has proved he can play at a solid level, especially when the defense has the proper pieces around him.

[Smeefers]

If I recall, he sat on the bench that first game because they spent the whole time in a nickel d and he wasn't slotted to be in on D on nickel, Barnett was.

[pbmax]

Even if Hawk is solid, there is no upside. I'd rather roll the dice with something new.

I agree with this. Although he is better in some areas than others and in coverage I would not describe him as solid. However, while Francois showed upside on coverage, he was also abused a few times, especially in his second game. He might get a shot with another offseason.

McGinn noted in the original article (or maybe the year end grades) that Hawk was torched by Sproles in opening week and Capers did everything he could to hide him after that. That is scout/GM/opposing coach speak for their grade on a player. It sounds all insidery and juicy. But most teams have one backer who is better in coverage than others and another who struggles more. And every offense tries to get the poorer coverage man in a bad spot. Its like finding a way to tell you its raining and making it sound like a conspiracy.

Robert forgot that Hawk was benched versus the Eagles last year for the same coverage problems. It isn't new. Everyone knows this but forgot after last years overall performance.

But I think Skin and Nutz have the basic point. While it is easy to say Hawk had a bad year, he has not changed all that much as a player. To have him as the poster child for what went wrong with the defense in 2011 is ignoring areas of bigger needs.

ILB is an area that can be improved. But it could be improved by carrying someone like Chillar or Francois and playing them in nickel or by finding a better natural mix of starters than Hawk/Bishop because there is not enough coverage ability there. And while Bishop might be capable, he is better attacking the LOS.

[Zool]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

[Deputy Nutz]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

Your mom was pretty average. Skin and I had a very long discussion about that.

[sharpe1027]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

Jared Bush comes to mind.

[ND72]

I won't argue with any negative said about Hawk...he is who he is I guess. I just see a few things that bother me about our defense...#1, coaching. If the middle of the field is still wide open game after game, that is no longer on the player, that is on coaching. I may just be an OL/DL coach, and my years of film study is based aroudn that, but when I coach a kid, and someone is beating him on a move every play, that is my job to correct it. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

#2, lockout. Something altered our defense this year. Tramon was off, Chuck was off at times, Hawk was off, Matthews, while still solid, was off. Something was going on that we as fans couldn't connect the dots to. And I still get the arguement that by week 17 things should have been fixed, but obviously they weren't.

#3, Scheme. We saw less of they "psycho" defense this year, and more of the base 3-4 than the nickle that was used a lot last year. Our defense just seemed very vanilla and basic all year. Then when we realized we couldn't get any pressure, we tried blitzing more, which also didn't happen. One play in the Giants game that pissed me off beyond belief was when we brought 3 guys, dropped 8 into coverage, and Nicks was standing in the middle of the field wide ass open directly in between LB & S depths. What the hell? And it happened more than once, so again that brings me back to what are the coaches seeing and communicating to players on the field?

#4, players. I hate to keep bringing it up because it is a BS reason, but teams went after the DE/ROLB positions this year because we were horrible. AND, teams threw it at Tramon...ALOT. If not Tramon, then they threw it at Peprah...ALOT. Teams exploited our weaknesses almost weekly this year. That happened in 2009/2010 also, and we came back last year as a different defense. I hope the same is true in 2012/2013.

[Brandon494]

And then he was praised for leading the LBs on a league leading defense. I remember that.

Which was dumb as shit to even think that he was. Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk just because he had the headset in his helmet.

[sharpe1027]

Which was dumb as shit to even think that he was. Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk just because he had the headset in his helmet.

To my knowledge nobody has ever said that Hawk is in the same league as Clay or that Hawk should get credit for Clay's success. Reading comprehension, it's not just for 6th graders. :/

[Brandon494]

But I think Skin and Nutz have the basic point. While it is easy to say Hawk had a bad year, he has not changed all that much as a player. To have him as the poster child for what went wrong with the defense in 2011 is ignoring areas of bigger needs.

ILB is an area that can be improved. But it could be improved by carrying someone like Chillar or Francois and playing them in nickel or by finding a better natural mix of starters than Hawk/Bishop because there is not enough coverage ability there. And while Bishop might be capable, he is better attacking the LOS.

I know what the article was about but I don't think anyone thinks Hawk is the main problem on defense. Obviously pass rush and secondary are our main needs but that still doesn't take anyway from the fact that Hawk played worse then a 6th round rookie this season.

[Brandon494]

To my knowledge nobody has ever said that Hawk is in the same league as Clay or that Hawk should get credit for Clay's success. Reading comprehension, it's not just for 6th graders. :/

LMAO I like how you just burned yourself with that comment. Anyway pretty sure people gave credit to Hawk taking over for Barnett as the headset caller on defense like that was the reason for our defense playing lights out. Sure it had nothing to do with guys like Clay, Raji, Tramon, Woodson, Collins, Bishop, Jenkins, and Shields balling out last season.

[sharpe1027]

LMAO I like how you just burned yourself with that comment. Anyway pretty sure people gave credit to Hawk taking over for Barnett as the headset caller on defense like that was the reason for our defense playing lights out. Sure it had nothing to do with guys like Clay, Raji, Tramon, Woodson, Collins, Bishop, Jenkins, and Shields balling out last season.

Nobody is saying Clay's success was due to Hawk's play calling. Nobody is saying that Clay missed out on DPOY because Hawk was getting too much credit. Nobody is saying that Hawk is an all-pro. Nobody is saying that Hawk should not be replaced. Nobody is saying that Hawk has a big upside. It seems to me that the main disagreement is that some people think he's not the biggest problem and that the team would not be improved by cutting him, at least not until they're sure they have someone that can step in.

Why are you so set on dismissing such a relatively uncontroversial opinion?

[Brandon494]

See what I posted two post up, no one is saying he is our biggest problem but the guy sucks and hes overpaid.

[SkinBasket]

Why are you so set on dismissing such a relatively uncontroversial opinion?

Because he don't need no stats. He watched the games!





oh... and he's mildly retarded.

[SkinBasket]

Which was dumb as shit to even think that he was. Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk just because he had the headset in his helmet.

You really don't have a very good idea of how this whole football thing works do you? No, wait! Don't answer that. We already know, and it's okay little guy. It's okay.

[woodbuck27]

Great read. Thanks fellas.

[sharpe1027]

See what I posted two post up, no one is saying he is our biggest problem but the guy sucks and hes overpaid.

Congrats, this after 6 pages of you disagreeing with basically the same statements. Immediately before that you equate giving Hawk credit with why Matthews didn't win DPOY when the post you are replying to was merely showing the hypocrisy of relying upon flavor of the week analysis.


Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk

[swede]

I think when talking about Hawk's draft pick, it's important to look at the time he was drafted. It was TT's second year. Our talent pool was horrible and we didn't have another linebacker besides Barnett. We had a lot of guys who were just starting to come into their own and there was still a lot of mistakes being made, but Hawk came in like a 5 year vet and actually lead the team in tackles. This is the first year where he wasn't in the top 3 for tackles on our team. When he came out, nobody said he was going to be a game changer, they said he was a safe pick, a solid starter and I don't see any evidence to contrary. I still see him as a solid player, a work horse. This year, he was an average player, but I think this is the worst year he's had. If that's his bottom, well then I think he's worth what we pay him.

I think that this take blended with Rand's is pretty close to right. I remember everyone saying pre-draft that Hawk was no stud, not likely to be a pro-bowler, but he was the surest thing in a difficult draft in terms of a ten year contributor.

Last year Hawk was the guy we expected: steady, solid, smart, but unspectacular. This year he regressed. I'll never forget the first Lions game when he had filled a gap and then disappeared while the Detroit runner gashed us for 10+ right over the spot Hawk had vacated. Did he remember his responsibility was to the outside and expected another to control the gap he was in? Did he guess wrong? It was a play that was emblematic of his season, though. I am no Hawk hater, but next year is his last year if it is again like this year.

[Brandon494]

Because he don't need no stats. He watched the games!




oh... and he's mildly retarded.

LMAO yea you show me AJ Hawks stats like a MLB making tackles is suppose to mean something. All those stats told me was his best season came when he was a rookie. The guy didn't cause one turnover this season and had 1.5 sacks. Bishop didn't have that great of a season either but at least he had 5 sacks, caused 2 turnovers, and had more solo tackles than Hawk had tackles well playing fewer games then Hawk last season.

[Brandon494]

Congrats, this after 6 pages of you disagreeing with basically the same statements. Immediately before that you equate giving Hawk credit with why Matthews didn't win DPOY when the post you are replying to was merely showing the hypocrisy of relying upon flavor of the week analysis.

Serious man? Skins wrote "And then he was praised for leading the LBs on a league leading defense. I remember that." talking about Hawk. No where in my reply did I say Matthews didn't win the DPOY award because of Hawk. Are you high right now? If so hook a brotha up because thats got to me some good shit you smoking. :smk:

[Brandon494]

I did say we should cut Hawk and use to money on getting a pass rusher without realizing his cap numbers. Obviously not the right move to cut him but I still disagree with resigning him to the deal he got. We could have signed Barnett for shorter and cheaper deal and resigned Jenkins for a little more than what Hawk's deal was worth. Which would you prefer? Barnett and Jenkins or Hawk?

[mraynrand]

I don't think anyone thinks Hawk is the main problem on defense. Obviously pass rush and secondary are our main needs but that still doesn't take anyway from the fact that Hawk played worse then a 6th round rookie this season.

I think this pretty well sums it up. Hawk is a dud. Sure, if he were a 5th or later round pick, you'd say that's pretty good value, to get a serviceable starter, but you'd be looking to upgrade. Given the other problems in the defense, you're going to spend your picks/money elsewhere, if you can.

[woodbuck27]

I did say we should cut Hawk and use to money on getting a pass rusher without realizing his cap numbers. Obviously not the right move to cut him but I still disagree with resigning him to the deal he got. We could have signed Barnett for shorter and cheaper deal and resigned Jenkins for a little more than what Hawk's deal was worth. Which would you prefer? Barnett and Jenkins or Hawk?

Ouchh !

[Zool]

Every team drafts duds in every round. Hawk is an average starter that you can live with but to Brandons point (I think?) he's overpaid and got drafted too high. Happens every day in the NFL. He doesn't suck but he's nothing to cheer about either.

He just sort of....is.

If the guy made the vet minimum he'd be great value.

[sharpe1027]

Serious man? Skins wrote "And then he was praised for leading the LBs on a league leading defense. I remember that." talking about Hawk. No where in my reply did I say Matthews didn't win the DPOY award because of Hawk. Are you high right now? If so hook a brotha up because thats got to me some good shit you smoking. :smk:

Judging by your response, I am guessing that when you said "Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk" you meant it in a different context than how I initially read it. I can see that now and it was my mistake, perhaps you can see how it could be read as suggesting that Clay should have won but instead people want to give credit to Hawk. Either way, I understand your point.

Skins post was in response to someone commenting on how people were talking about Hawk being phased out. I read it as a pretty clear cut dig at using that type of flavor of the week analysis since two contradictory opinions were formed on Hawk within a short time frame. I didn't read it as arguing that Hawk really was responsible for the defense's improvement, but merely pointing out the fickle nature of such analysis. Perhaps I'm wrong again.

In any event, Hawk is going nowhere anytime soon. I think that is a wise decision as they gain nothing next year by cutting him.

[mraynrand]

but to Brandons point (I think?) he's overpaid and got drafted too high. Happens every day in the NFL. He doesn't suck but he's nothing to cheer about either.

He just sort of....is.

If the guy made the vet minimum he'd be great value.

I agree, except I'd change Great to Good

[Smidgeon]

I won't argue with any negative said about Hawk...he is who he is I guess. I just see a few things that bother me about our defense...#1, coaching. If the middle of the field is still wide open game after game, that is no longer on the player, that is on coaching. I may just be an OL/DL coach, and my years of film study is based aroudn that, but when I coach a kid, and someone is beating him on a move every play, that is my job to correct it. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

#2, lockout. Something altered our defense this year. Tramon was off, Chuck was off at times, Hawk was off, Matthews, while still solid, was off. Something was going on that we as fans couldn't connect the dots to. And I still get the arguement that by week 17 things should have been fixed, but obviously they weren't.

#3, Scheme. We saw less of they "psycho" defense this year, and more of the base 3-4 than the nickle that was used a lot last year. Our defense just seemed very vanilla and basic all year. Then when we realized we couldn't get any pressure, we tried blitzing more, which also didn't happen. One play in the Giants game that pissed me off beyond belief was when we brought 3 guys, dropped 8 into coverage, and Nicks was standing in the middle of the field wide ass open directly in between LB & S depths. What the hell? And it happened more than once, so again that brings me back to what are the coaches seeing and communicating to players on the field?

#4, players. I hate to keep bringing it up because it is a BS reason, but teams went after the DE/ROLB positions this year because we were horrible. AND, teams threw it at Tramon...ALOT. If not Tramon, then they threw it at Peprah...ALOT. Teams exploited our weaknesses almost weekly this year. That happened in 2009/2010 also, and we came back last year as a different defense. I hope the same is true in 2012/2013.

Personally, I think the Psycho being used less is less of an indication about scheme than the nickel being used less. Last year the Packers were in the nickel over 70% of the total snaps (if I remember correctly). I even made several comments wondering if this would be one of those defining schemes that one team pulled off that none other could duplicate (like the old Cowboys or Bears systems).

Does anyone know why the Pack couldn't run it as much? Pickett and Raji switching around doesn't sound right. Collins being gone sounds closer to the truth. But I don't know enough about the mechanics of football to offer anything educated.

[Smidgeon]

I think that this take blended with Rand's is pretty close to right. I remember everyone saying pre-draft that Hawk was no stud, not likely to be a pro-bowler, but he was the surest thing in a difficult draft in terms of a ten year contributor.

Last year Hawk was the guy we expected: steady, solid, smart, but unspectacular. This year he regressed. I'll never forget the first Lions game when he had filled a gap and then disappeared while the Detroit runner gashed us for 10+ right over the spot Hawk had vacated. Did he remember his responsibility was to the outside and expected another to control the gap he was in? Did he guess wrong? It was a play that was emblematic of his season, though. I am no Hawk hater, but next year is his last year if it is again like this year.

Hindsight is 20/20 and Ngata would look good in green and gold. Maybe Whitner too. But Hawk will be a ten year contributor. Nothing amazing. Nothing great. But he'll be employed for at least a decade in the NFL. On the Packers or elsewhere, considering the natural flops that come with drafting, you could do a lot worse in any draft.

In fact, no matter where in the first round, if Hawk is TT's worst first round draft pick (jury's out on Sherrod and I still maintain Harrell would have been good if not for injury), then that's not a bad track record. He got Rodgers in the 20s, Matthews in the 20s, Bulaga in the 20s. For as often as 20s picks don't pan out, I'll accept that track record.

[mraynrand]

Hindsight is 20/20 and Ngata would look good in green and gold. Maybe Whitner too. But Hawk will be a ten year contributor. Nothing amazing. Nothing great. But he'll be employed for at least a decade in the NFL. On the Packers or elsewhere, considering the natural flops that come with drafting, you could do a lot worse in any draft.

In fact, no matter where in the first round, if Hawk is TT's worst first round draft pick (jury's out on Sherrod and I still maintain Harrell would have been good if not for injury), then that's not a bad track record. He got Rodgers in the 20s, Matthews in the 20s, Bulaga in the 20s. For as often as 20s picks don't pan out, I'll accept that track record.

I agree, TT has had plenty of first round successes - It's just so hard to take, because he was at #5. And for those who hate McGinn, he was the guy arguing before the draft that the Packers should trade down and take Ngata.

[SkinBasket]

LMAO yea you show me AJ Hawks stats like a MLB making tackles is suppose to mean something. All those stats told me was his best season came when he was a rookie. The guy didn't cause one turnover this season and had 1.5 sacks. Bishop didn't have that great of a season either but at least he had 5 sacks, caused 2 turnovers, and had more solo tackles than Hawk had tackles well playing fewer games then Hawk last season.

Well, which is it? First you tell us stats don't mean anything, then you use a bunch of hand picked stats to try to make some kind of belabored, ass backward comparison between two players with different defensive responsibilities. You're funny.

[Brandon494]

Well, which is it? First you tell us stats don't mean anything, then you use a bunch of hand picked stats to try to make some kind of belabored, ass backward comparison between two players with different defensive responsibilities. You're funny.

You kept going on and on about how much stats mean so I gave you some stats and now your acting like they don't mean anything. You sir are the funny one!

[Bossman641]

What is the argument again?

My take, Hawk got too much credit last year and is receiving too much blame this year. I always thought the whole “Hawk is better with the headset thing” was a load of garbage last year. This year he wasn’t issue #1 with the defense, but he was among the worst defenders on a defense that couldn’t tackle for shit. I don’t see the point in cutting him, but Francois and Smith should be given every chance to pass him by.

There is always the caveat that Hawk does things that don’t show up in the box score, but that’s not cutting it for me anymore. I don’t need stats to tell me how bad Hawk looked trying to square up and tackle a RB in space or how he seemed to always be a step slow. The contract to Hawk always looked high, but now it looks awful.

[sharpe1027]

What is the argument again?

My take, Hawk got too much credit last year and is receiving too much blame this year. I always thought the whole “Hawk is better with the headset thing” was a load of garbage last year. This year he wasn’t issue #1 with the defense, but he was among the worst defenders on a defense that couldn’t tackle for shit. I don’t see the point in cutting him, but Francois and Smith should be given every chance to pass him by.

There is always the caveat that Hawk does things that don’t show up in the box score, but that’s not cutting it for me anymore. I don’t need stats to tell me how bad Hawk looked trying to square up and tackle a RB in space or how he seemed to always be a step slow. The contract to Hawk always looked high, but now it looks awful.

Much better than I could have said it.

[pbmax]

#3, Scheme. We saw less of they "psycho" defense this year, and more of the base 3-4 than the nickle that was used a lot last year. Our defense just seemed very vanilla and basic all year. Then when we realized we couldn't get any pressure, we tried blitzing more, which also didn't happen. One play in the Giants game that pissed me off beyond belief was when we brought 3 guys, dropped 8 into coverage, and Nicks was standing in the middle of the field wide ass open directly in between LB & S depths. What the hell? And it happened more than once, so again that brings me back to what are the coaches seeing and communicating to players on the field?

Less nickel because ROLB (and possibly DE) was inconsistent and Shields and Tramon tackled like the runner carried the plague (didn't help when Tramon got hurt). So they were getting burned in the run. Base then put Wood on the edge but then he was no help for Peprah in midfield. Also no Barnett or Chillar to help with TEs. In short, because he could not force the issue, Capers had to react to down and distance rather than dictate. Also, no Collins.

I also don't think Raji is as stout at NT as he is at 3 tech or even 5 tech DE. Raji did not hold square in the middle until the Giants playoff game. For the same reason, the Capers Eagle Okie that McGinn mentioned in preseason, with Raji at NT and Pickett at 3 tech might not have been such a grand idea. But there was a lot more of base this year because the opposing run game could run versus the nickel.

Call me stubborn, but if you can't stop third and long with eight in coverage a good percentage of the time, then perhaps you deserve to lose. That same coverage worked last year in 3rd and long and it worked versus the Giants twice that I recall and failed the same number of times (your Nicks reference being one).

What I don't know is the percentage that this scheme worked and if someone had trouble in it. Was the zone a problem for Shields? LB not deep enough in their drops? Its not like play action was fooling Peprah or the ILBs.

The truth here is that perhaps Thompson got stuck with no options. His extensions to Chillar and Barnett (and then Chillar's injury) made the whole ILB corp too expensive to keep. So you've got young guys and minimal coverage with the vets.

Would also like to know why there are still late communications among the DBs (esp. Woodson) that tend to leave everyone confused.

[th87]

Yeah, the "he does things that don't show up in the box score" kept me quiet for a while too. But now that we witnessed one of the worst defenses in HISTORY, I have to question what it was he did that didn't show up in the box score this year. All I see is a top-heavy, slow, and obsolete player trying to cover players faster than him, and getting swallowed up by blocks.

It has been established that it wasn't just him who was at fault for the defensive embarrassment, but for things to change, there has to be a chance for a renewal. And a renewal can only happen if players without upside are turned over (unless they're really good, like Woodson). So Hawk fits that. As did Poppinga and Bigby in the past.

[Bretsky]

In the past Hawk was reliably average with little upside
This year he wasn't even that.

I don't think he's as bad a Poppinga....but his performance this year was often Poppinga and Bigby like

[swede]

In the past Hawk was reliably average with little upside
This year he wasn't even that.

I don't think he's as bad a Poppinga....but his performance this year was often Poppinga and Bigby like

Ouch!

[woodbuck27]

http://packerrats.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bretsky http://packerrats.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?p=651643#post651643)

"In the past Hawk was reliably average with little upside
This year he wasn't even that. I don't think he's as bad a Poppinga....but his performance this year was often Poppinga and Bigby like" ... B.




" Ouch! " .... Swede

Gong !!! and .........Do we have some conclusion ...some direction or desire to want to see TT take RE: AJ Hawk?

I look at this player and all the speculation we went through last season and the 'magical thinking discussion' about an AJ Hawk to Buffalo for Marshawn Lynch deal. I place emphasis on 'the words 'magical thinking'.

How good would ** Marshawn Lynch have looked in our offense as an option for MM? How much longer does TT give AJ Hawk is one question but an easier one IMO is. Don't we need to get something more at RB? We've been asking that certainly since 2004 and before that as concerns RB and pass rush.

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshawn_Lynch $$

$$ 2010 season ... Marshawn Lynch

Lynch suffered an ankle sprain in the Bills' preseason opening game against the Washington Redskins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Washington_Redskins_season) and was expected to be out for three to four weeks.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshawn_Lynch#cite_note-22) He started three games for the Bills before being traded to the Seattle Seahawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks) on October 5 for two draft picks, a fourth-rounder in 2011 and a conditional pick in 2012.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshawn_Lynch#cite_note-23)


Don't those questions come down to the basics of winning football games in terms of some of the following:

Resting the defense.

Winning the battle of the clock.

Pressuring the opposing QB and all these:

In terms of reality and team strength in the NFL today.

GO Ted Thompson GO ! Get the wind behind us man.

[Smeefers]

I agree with the Hawk had a bad year take. I suppose I just don't think it was awful. I suppose you guys don't remember Na'il Diggs and Hannibal Naives. That's who we had before we had Hawk. People are talking like he's barely an average player and that's not true. He's had several decent seasons and one kind of crappy one. There were a ton more problems this year than just Hawk and he definitely wasn't a top concern to me and he still isn't. His money isn't a concern for me. He's ranked 15 our of 51 and you know what? That sounds just about right. Besides Tramon Williams and the guys in their rookie contracts, there isn't a guy below him who I think deserves more money than him. He's got a back loaded contract and if he doesn't play up to potential, they'll drop him or renegotiate with him. Just like they did last time.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/green-bay-packers/salary/67046?q=green-bay-packers