Scouts Inc Current Top 32----NFL Draft....comments appreciated

[Bretsky]

SCOUTS INC.'S TOP 32Player Pos. School Grade

1. Andrew Luck* QB Stanford 99
2. Matt Kalil OT USC 97
3. Quinton Coples DE N. Carolina 96
4. Robert Griffin III* QB Baylor 96
5. Trent Richardson* RB Alabama 96
6. Morris Claiborne* CB LSU 95
7. Melvin Ingram DE S. Carolina 95
8. Courtney Upshaw OLB Alabama 95
9. Riley Reiff* OT Iowa 95
10. Michael Brockers* DT LSU 95
11. Luke Kuechly* ILB Boston Coll. 95
12. Justin Blackmon* WR Okla. State 94
13. Mark Barron S Alabama 94
14. David DeCastro* G Stanford 94
15. Janoris Jenkins CB N. Alabama 93
16. Ryan Tannehill QB Texas A&M 93
17. Jonathan Martin* OT Stanford 93
18. Michael Floyd WR Notre Dame 92
19. Dre Kirkpatrick* CB Alabama 92
20. Kendall Wright WR Baylor 91
21. Brock Osweiler* QB Arizona St. 90
22. Chandler Jones* DE Syracuse 90
23. Vontaze Burfict* ILB Arizona St. 90
24. Coby Fleener TE Stanford 90
25. Nick Perry* DE USC 89
26. Cordy Glenn G Georgia 89
27. Mike Adams OT Ohio State 89
28. Brandon Thompson DT Clemson 89
29. Dwayne Allen* TE Clemson 88
30. Jerel Worthy* DT Michigan St. 88
31. Fletcher Cox* TE Miss. State 87
32. Lamar Miller* RB Miami (FL) 87

[Bretsky]

Just a few comments to start

Guys I'd be happy with from that group: Fletcher Cox, Nick Perry

Ingram and Upshaw are going well before our pick

[Lurker64]

Just a few comments to start

Guys I'd be happy with from that group: Fletcher Cox, Nick Perry

Ingram and Upshaw are going well before our pick

IMO Nick Perry goes before Ingram or Upshaw. Perry's a top 12 pick, and a significantly more scheme diverse player. Neither Ingram nor Upshaw will work out all that well at the combine.

[Upnorth]

I would love if your right Lurker, getting Upshaw would be amazing!

[pbmax]

I hope, that if they are right, that five DE/OLB prospects is enough for some talent to come down the board.

[Joemailman]

I wonder if the Packers see Jerel Worthy as a guy who could play DE. He certainly has the talent to be considered a 1st round prospect.

[Pugger]

I would love if your right Lurker, getting Upshaw would be amazing!

Getting Upshaw would be a miracle.

[Fosco33]

My question - will TT trade up to get the guy he really likes (needs)? If that's the case - who?

[Bretsky]

My question - will TT trade up to get the guy he really likes (needs)? If that's the case - who?


I'd be disappointed if he did; IMO this draft will provide us with a ton of first round prospects in the top 45 picks. If anything........Like Last Year........I'd love to see him trade down into the top of round two...make pick one...and then package our 2nd and the pick he picks up...or a 3rd to fourth....and then get a second pick in the top 45.

Want to solve our pass rush ? Two players in the top 45 would go a LONG way.

[Ballboy]

I'd be disappointed if he did; IMO this draft will provide us with a ton of first round prospects in the top 45 picks. If anything........Like Last Year........I'd love to see him trade down into the top of round two...make pick one...and then package our 2nd and the pick he picks up...or a 3rd to fourth....and then get a second pick in the top 45.

Want to solve our pass rush ? Two players in the top 45 would go a LONG way.

Agreed, somehow we need to get a DL, LB and DB(CB or S). One could say a better DL and LB would cover-up a weaker DB, so that would be the way to go. I just get this feeling that if Collins cant play, TT will look to a S in the first round or two....me personally would look to a DL and ROLB.

[Joemailman]

Agreed, somehow we need to get a DL, LB and DB(CB or S). One could say a better DL and LB would cover-up a weaker DB, so that would be the way to go. I just get this feeling that if Collins cant play, TT will look to a S in the first round or two....me personally would look to a DL and ROLB.

Probably only 2 safeties good enough to go in the top 60. Much more likely that TT will use 1st 2 picks to shore up pass rush.

[Lurker64]

Getting Upshaw would be a miracle.

You have to keep in mind that Upshaw's stock is as high as it's going to be right now, he's not expected to work out well at the combine, and if he works out even less well than that it's entirely possible he will fall into the 20s.

It wouldn't be surprising if Upshaw runs in the 4.8s at the combine.

Personally, I think I'd rather have Ingram.

[pbmax]

Remember Cornerback. They need a that too, unless they feel that House can do it after an offseason. But the more we get into the offseason, the less likely I think they do that position high in the draft. Unless someone falls to them unexpectedly.

[Deputy Nutz]

After watching film on both upshaw and Ingram, I would rather have Ingram who is bigger, and a much better all around athlete. I don't think he has the agility to play OLB on every play, but he can also put his hand on the ground where as Upshaw can't play end in a 3-4.

Upshaw looks very stiff, and i agree if he runs a 4.7 I my jaw would hit the floor, but it is all about the 3 cone anyways.

[Pugger]

You have to keep in mind that Upshaw's stock is as high as it's going to be right now, he's not expected to work out well at the combine, and if he works out even less well than that it's entirely possible he will fall into the 20s.

It wouldn't be surprising if Upshaw runs in the 4.8s at the combine.

Personally, I think I'd rather have Ingram.

I only said that because his name was high on the list and it would be surprising to see him drop that far. It will be interesting to watch the combine and see how these kids actually perform.

[Cheesehead Craig]

After watching film on both upshaw and Ingram, I would rather have Ingram who is bigger, and a much better all around athlete. I don't think he has the agility to play OLB on every play, but he can also put his hand on the ground where as Upshaw can't play end in a 3-4.

Upshaw looks very stiff, and i agree if he runs a 4.7 I my jaw would hit the floor, but it is all about the 3 cone anyways.

That's what I think as well on Upshaw. I don't see him being our answer at OLB.

[Lurker64]

That's what I think as well on Upshaw. I don't see him being our answer at OLB.

I think a guy like Ingram or Upshaw is ideally what you want opposite Clay Matthews at OLB: a bigger, stouter guy who is an active rusher with "crush the pocket" potential but who slips in the draft due to lack of elite pass rushing measurables. Prototype for what we're looking for is someone like Lamarr Woodley, who was just about the same size as Ingram coming out, he fell to pick #46 since he was thought to be too small to excel on the DL and too stiff to excel in space, but turned into a darn good OLB opposite a legitimate #1 pass rusher.

Both Upshaw and Ingram fall into that model, I think fans are excited about them right now, but neither really offer much to a team looking for a #1 OLB (or a 4-3 DE). The fact that someone like Nick Perry will test well as a pass rusher, and can play both the #1 and the #2 pass rusher role, means that he should go higher than either Ingram or Upshaw.

[denverYooper]

I think a guy like Ingram or Upshaw is ideally what you want opposite Clay Matthews at OLB: a bigger, stouter guy who is an active rusher with "crush the pocket" potential but who slips in the draft due to lack of elite pass rushing measurables. Prototype for what we're looking for is someone like Lamarr Woodley, who was just about the same size as Ingram coming out, he fell to pick #46 since he was thought to be too small to excel on the DL and too stiff to excel in space, but turned into a darn good OLB opposite a legitimate #1 pass rusher.

Both Upshaw and Ingram fall into that model, I think fans are excited about them right now, but neither really offer much to a team looking for a #1 OLB (or a 4-3 DE). The fact that someone like Nick Perry will test well as a pass rusher, and can play both the #1 and the #2 pass rusher role, means that he should go higher than either Ingram or Upshaw.

Spot on.

[gbgary]

comments appreciated

no comment.

[sheepshead]

All I know is 1/3 will be pro bowl caliber; 1/3 will be serviceable and 1/3 will be busts. Over hyped, over rated and way way too expensive.

[Lurker64]

All I know is 1/3 will be pro bowl caliber; 1/3 will be serviceable and 1/3 will be busts. Over hyped, over rated and way way too expensive.

Rookies aren't that expensive anymore, the team that drafts Andrew Luck is going to get him for like four years for $22m, that's not that ridiculous for the first player chosen.

[Fritz]

I couldn't believe TT gave up so much to move up to take some relatively unheralded guy from SC in the first round.

Doh!

So, pick someone Ted. I'll let you figger it out. You and the Packerrats, most of whom know way more about this stuff than I do.

[mission]

You guys keep downplaying Ingram. Last time I brought him up somebody was talking 2nd round... they have him rated 95 here. Dude's a pure monster and is an all-around athlete. He might not run a 4.55 but he's going to impress for his size.

[Lurker64]

In spite of all this talk about Upshaw and Ingram, I would much rather have Devon Still or Michael Brockers than either.

[MJZiggy]

See, you guys aren't going to do this to me this year. Every year, you all get excited about some kid and I get all enthused about it and start rooting for us to pick the kid, then TT goes and drafts some kid we never heard of and everyone flips out, but not this year. I'm not rooting for anyone this year.

[Lurker64]

See, you guys aren't going to do this to me this year. Every year, you all get excited about some kid and I get all enthused about it and start rooting for us to pick the kid, then TT goes and drafts some kid we never heard of and everyone flips out, but not this year. I'm not rooting for anyone this year.

The solution to this problem is to learn a lot about every single player who's a day 1 or 2 prospect in the draft. Simple.

[MJZiggy]

The solution to this problem is to learn a lot about every single player who's a day 1 or 2 prospect in the draft. Simple.

Having never seen a single one of them play a snap, that seems a tad...um...difficult. Especially since 62 of them will be selected by other teams that I couldn't give a rat's ass about.

[Joemailman]

You have to keep in mind that Upshaw's stock is as high as it's going to be right now, he's not expected to work out well at the combine, and if he works out even less well than that it's entirely possible he will fall into the 20s.

It wouldn't be surprising if Upshaw runs in the 4.8s at the combine.

Personally, I think I'd rather have Ingram.

I think Ingram will go earlier than people think. He has the size to play DE in a 4-3, so he'll be attractive to teams no matter what kind of defense they play. A couple of years ago I was hoping Brandon Graham would fall to the Packers, and he went at # 13. I could see the same thing with Ingram.

[Upnorth]

Unfortunatly I think Ingram will be long gone at #28. Same with Upshaw. I have no idea who might be around but I bet I have no idea who he is when we pick him.

[KYPack]

I can't keep track of these college kids anymore, either. If there is a game on in the fall that I have interest in, I look at it, if not, I don't watch.

Its 'more fun this way. Last year, I was happier than hell when GB nabbed Cobb with that second round pick. The first time I saw Sherrod play was our first pre-season game.

I let Lurk, B-man, and the others do the heavy lifting in the "draft season".

[Upnorth]

KY once TT makes his pick make sure you say you had a hunch he might lean that way. It means nothing but then you could take credit for something you never did. You could be management!

[KYPack]

KY once TT makes his pick make sure you say you had a hunch he might lean that way. It means nothing but then you could take credit for something you never did. You could be management!

You got it, Canuck.

I'm not much on the first guess anymore, but I can second guess with the best of 'em.

[bobblehead]

I would simply like to see Sherrod come back healthy and improved (he was looking much better when he got hurt). Cobb take over as the #3. Basically I would like last years draft to step up. Defensive help can come in the way of a more solid scheme and a miracle Billy Graham type healing of Nick Collins.

[Lurker64]

Couple of names that I'd be happy to see the Packers take that surprise me by not being on the list are Penn State's Devon Still and Memphis's Dontarri Poe. Still has prototypical 5-tech numbers, and is a good athlete for his size, and has worked his tail off at Penn State in spite of dealing with some health issues (notably, he got stabbed in the training room by one of his teammates).

Poe is an absolute mammoth human being (6'4 5/8" 350 lbs) who is surprisingly athletic for his size. In terms of technique he's pretty green (Memphis isn't a big time football school, and the level of competition he faced he could mostly just push around) but with good coaching the kid could turn into a monster (maybe not quite "Haloti Ngata" type monster, but similar.) His high board probably doesn't come at 5-tech, but I would not be surprised (or disappointed) if the Packers took him.

First round prospects I have at DE right now are Still, Brockers, Cox, and Poe (in that order). Jerel Worthy wouldn't be terrible, but we have too many "technique" guys at the 5-tech spot as it stands, we really need some young "frame" guys. Sometimes you're just going to draw two blockers because you're just too damn big.

[Smidgeon]

Couple of names that I'd be happy to see the Packers take that surprise me by not being on the list are Penn State's Devon Still and Memphis's Dontarri Poe. Still has prototypical 5-tech numbers, and is a good athlete for his size, and has worked his tail off at Penn State in spite of dealing with some health issues (notably, he got stabbed in the training room by one of his teammates).

Poe is an absolute mammoth human being (6'4 5/8" 350 lbs) who is surprisingly athletic for his size. In terms of technique he's pretty green (Memphis isn't a big time football school, and the level of competition he faced he could mostly just push around) but with good coaching the kid could turn into a monster (maybe not quite "Haloti Ngata" type monster, but similar.) His high board probably doesn't come at 5-tech, but I would not be surprised (or disappointed) if the Packers took him.

First round prospects I have at DE right now are Still, Brockers, Cox, and Poe (in that order). Jerel Worthy wouldn't be terrible, but we have too many "technique" guys at the 5-tech spot as it stands, we really need some young "frame" guys. Sometimes you're just going to draw two blockers because you're just too damn big.

Why isn't Howard Green effective at this?

[Lurker64]

Why isn't Howard Green effective at this?

Old, slow, not a high effort player, and a guy who has been cut numerous times in his NFL career. There's a big difference between a 33 year old guy who's 6'2" 340, and a 21 year old guy who's 6'5" 350 in terms of the havoc they can wreak against offensive linemen. Also Green isn't "big" in a meaningful sense beyond his weight, what I was getting at was "length + size" more than anything. A 6'4"+ guy with gorilla arms would really help the DL.

Neither Pickett nor Green are truly DEs, they're more NT types to begin with. You just don't want to move Raji out of the middle because his length, is his biggest issue and the further he plays from the center the more of an issue that is. You can play in the middle as an older big man making up for youthful exuberance with girth and veteran savvy, but that's less possible outside. 5-techs, unless they're great when they're young, aren't generally going to be great when they're older.

[pbmax]

You got it, Canuck.

I'm not much on the first guess anymore, but I can second guess with the best of 'em.

If that isn't the best site motto I have read, I'll eat my keyboard.

[Joemailman]

Couple of names that I'd be happy to see the Packers take that surprise me by not being on the list are Penn State's Devon Still and Memphis's Dontarri Poe. Still has prototypical 5-tech numbers, and is a good athlete for his size, and has worked his tail off at Penn State in spite of dealing with some health issues (notably, he got stabbed in the training room by one of his teammates).

Poe is an absolute mammoth human being (6'4 5/8" 350 lbs) who is surprisingly athletic for his size. In terms of technique he's pretty green (Memphis isn't a big time football school, and the level of competition he faced he could mostly just push around) but with good coaching the kid could turn into a monster (maybe not quite "Haloti Ngata" type monster, but similar.) His high board probably doesn't come at 5-tech, but I would not be surprised (or disappointed) if the Packers took him.

First round prospects I have at DE right now are Still, Brockers, Cox, and Poe (in that order). Jerel Worthy wouldn't be terrible, but we have too many "technique" guys at the 5-tech spot as it stands, we really need some young "frame" guys. Sometimes you're just going to draw two blockers because you're just too damn big.

Still not being there must be an oversight, unless injuries he suffered in 2007 and 2008 are a factor. Everyone else has him ranked top 10.

[pbmax]

Remember the PackerRats rule; injured in college twice, you cannot draft him. Even if one is a stabbing. Some people are just unlucky that way.

[Lurker64]

Remember the PackerRats rule; injured in college twice, you cannot draft him. Even if one is a stabbing. Some people are just unlucky that way.

I think if we keep people who are likely to stab their teammates off the team, we can do well with Still.

[Bretsky]

In spite of all this talk about Upshaw and Ingram, I would much rather have Devon Still or Michael Brockers than either.


Stop fighting your urges....no need for us to do the Reed vs Moch tassles again with two new players..........it's time for you to join me on the Vinny Wagon !!! There is room

[Fritz]

The essential question here regarding whether a guy coming out of college is injury-prone is this: does a stabbing count as a football "injury"?

[pbmax]

The essential question here regarding whether a guy coming out of college is injury-prone is this: does a stabbing count as a football "injury"?

I am going with an answer based on perspective; for the stabber, no. For the stabbee, yes.

[smuggler]

Pretty sure you've got that backwards.

[pbmax]

Pretty sure you've got that backwards.

You think he was stabbed to solve a depth chart problem?

[smuggler]

I think the stabber is crazy and the stabee has suffered an injury. But, the craziness is a better disqualifier than the non-football injury.

[Joemailman]

Actually, I don't think he was actually stabbed. A teammate pulled a knife on him, but coaches intervened before any harm could be done. So he obviously has the support of the coaching staff!

[pbmax]

I think the stabber is crazy and the stabee has suffered an injury. But, the craziness is a better disqualifier than the non-football injury.

I don't know, the Ravens like his attitude and aggressiveness and think it would translate well outside of the Dept. of Corrections.

[Deputy Nutz]

I honestly think you can fill your defensive line position later in the draft, no I don't mean round 4 or 5, I mean in round 2 or 3. They are basically looking for a body that can hold point in the run game and has reasonable understanding of scheme to open lanes for the pass rushers to attack through. I haven't given up on Mike Neal, I think he could be a player in the NFL, but if the Packers go into camp with him starting they must have a legit backup in the works that can come in and be a solid starter because Mike Neal can't be counted on to play a full season.

Besides the biggest issue is wide receiver.

[smuggler]

So true. We need to get Blackmon! Trade the draft!

[Lurker64]

Stop fighting your urges....no need for us to do the Reed vs Moch tassles again with two new players..........it's time for you to join me on the Vinny Wagon !!! There is room

Between two guys with the same grade at a position of need this year, I'm going to say we should go with the 5-tech not the OLB. If nothing else? "Planet Theory." I like Vinny Curry, just probably not at 28, though there will be a lot more clarity come combine time when we see these guys run and we see who's athleticism enables him to rush the passer in the NFL (e.g. Clay Matthews) and whose lack of athleticism will really hold him back despite college production (e.g. Everette Brown.)

[Joemailman]

Between two guys with the same grade at a position of need this year, I'm going to say we should go with the 5-tech not the OLB. If nothing else? "Planet Theory." I like Vinny Curry, just probably not at 28, though there will be a lot more clarity come combine time when we see these guys run and we see who's athleticism enables him to rush the passer in the NFL (e.g. Clay Matthews) and whose lack of athleticism will really hold him back despite college production (e.g. Everette Brown.)

The combine will be more important than ever. On one big board I've seen, 20 of the top 32 are juniors, and therefore were ineligible for the Senior Bowl.

The more I study this year's draft, the more I think TT will trade down. Good chance that Devon Still, Michael Brockers, Courtney Upshaw, Melvin Ingram, Nick Perry and Fletcher Cox will all be gone.

[Lurker64]

The more I study this year's draft, the more I think TT will trade down. Good chance that Devon Still, Michael Brockers, Courtney Upshaw, Melvin Ingram, Nick Perry and Fletcher Cox will all be gone.

If all those guys plus Poe (and possibly Konz depending on what happens with Wells) are gone? Then yeah, I trade back.

[SkinBasket]

Anyone got the ESPN mocks? I'm bored. And cheep.

[Smidgeon]

The combine will be more important than ever. On one big board I've seen, 20 of the top 32 are juniors, and therefore were ineligible for the Senior Bowl.

The more I study this year's draft, the more I think TT will trade down. Good chance that Devon Still, Michael Brockers, Courtney Upshaw, Melvin Ingram, Nick Perry and Fletcher Cox will all be gone.

Remember how trading down out of the first round backfired last time when he could have had Brandon Flowers and got Jordy Nelson instead? :|

[Lurker64]

Anyone got the ESPN mocks? I'm bored. And cheep.

I have insider, which do you want me to post?

Kiper's latest mock has us reaching for some safety out of Notre Dame because he assumes Nick Collins won't be cleared, which is stupid.

[Joemailman]

I have insider, which do you want me to post?

Kiper's latest mock has us reaching for some safety out of Notre Dame because he assumes Nick Collins won't be cleared, which is stupid.

Harrison Smith? That guy would probably be a reach in the 2nd round. Not even the type of Safety the Packers are looking for. More of a hitter than a cover guy.

[pbmax]

Between two guys with the same grade at a position of need this year, I'm going to say we should go with the 5-tech not the OLB. If nothing else? "Planet Theory." I like Vinny Curry, just probably not at 28, though there will be a lot more clarity come combine time when we see these guys run and we see who's athleticism enables him to rush the passer in the NFL (e.g. Clay Matthews) and whose lack of athleticism will really hold him back despite college production (e.g. Everette Brown.)

Lurk, what was the Combine view of Jason Pierre Paul and his pass rush?

Football Outsiders had a metric to predict NFL pass rush success off college production (similar to their college QB forecast-Lewin I think) that did not predict his success. I think he suffered from limited number of games with good production in that measure.

And my 2 cents would be lean pass rush rather than planet theory.

[Lurker64]

Lurk, what was the Combine view of Jason Pierre Paul and his pass rush?

JPP had a great combine. 6'4 3/4", 34 3/4" arms, 270. Ran the 40 in 4.76 and the 10 in 1.65, with that frame that's more than good enough, and he looked great in workouts. His vert doesn't blow you away with 30.5" and his cone was decent, but not great 7.18. But for what kind of a pass rusher he is, his length and his motor are his game, and he definitely looks the part. Based purely on how he did at the combine, he looked like a top 10 pick.

Knock on JPP going into the draft was the severe lack of experience (he literally only started for one year of football... ever), and questions about his mental capacity.

JPP's ascension to a top NFL DE is sort of a triumph for the "numbers" guys over the "tape guys" and the reason FO'S SACKSEER missed on JPP was largely that it tries to synthesize both approaches, but without actually having access to "tape" (since honestly, almost nobody has access to "tape" which is why a lot of the people who sneer at the combine are disingenuous.)

[Joemailman]

No questions about his flexibility:


http://technorati.com/videos/article/video-nfl-prospect-jason-pierre-paul/

[SkinBasket]

I have insider, which do you want me to post?

Kiper's latest mock has us reaching for some safety out of Notre Dame because he assumes Nick Collins won't be cleared, which is stupid.

I agree. I'll wait for the next one.

[Sparkey]

Two words "Peter Konz"