Good thing Gregg Williams didn't take the Packer Job...

[Lurker64]

I mean, Capers may have coddled the suck in a historically bad defense this year, but he didn't bring the wrath of Goodell down on his team like the guy who was offered the job before him:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82757bcd/article/nfl-says-saints-created-bounty-program-from-20092011?campaign=Twitter_breaking

[mraynrand]

I heard they even gave out $100 Best Buy gift certificates for "Big Hits"

[Lurker64]

It's probably also a good thing that TT hired McCarthy instead of Payton.

[Smidgeon]

It's probably also a good thing that TT hired McCarthy instead of Payton.

Yep. It's looking like that.

[Kiwon]

Yeah, it was a stupid thing to do, especially after the owner told the GM to have it stopped. However, my fear is that Goodell will take this as affirmation that he needs to continue to act as a one-man NCAA. I know the circumstances are more complicated than that but Goodell comes across sometimes as more activist than reasoned judge.

That said, the Saints should lose draft picks and pay some fines. The average NFL career is very short anyway and it’s the established "stars" like Kurt Warner and Brett Favre that fans pay to see play. Any monetary incentive to actually knock them out of the game by injuring them should be condemned and condemned harshly.

In the end, it’s still a game and must be played within the rules.

[pittstang5]

FUBAR

[gbgary]

did it with washington too. geesh!

[woodbuck27]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bfnYp?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=minnesota-vikings

Brett Favre was brutally pummeled in that championship game. Inspite of it all he stood in there somehow again and damn near pulled it out for the Saints losing another Super Bowl bid in OT by 3 points.

I never saw a QB get beat up that bad and stay in the game. It was brutal the way his OL left him out on an island; vulnerable to the time and again viscious Saints hits.

Vikings HC Brad Childress was pissed at his OL during the half time break in that game. the Vikings OL were someplace else but in that game. Was the SAINTS 'D' possibly just that brutal or inspired on that day by a silly bonus system? I'm shocked that Pro atletes can possibly believe that they can get away with such Neanderthal behaviour.

Length of career and quality of life issues are raised here.


GO PACKERS !

[Scott Campbell]

[URL]

I never saw a QB get beat up that bad and stay in the game. It was brutal the way his OL left him out on an island; vulnerable to the time and again viscious Saints hits.




It wasn't as brutal as the pick he choked up to Tracy Porter to end their season.

[Pugger]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bfnYp?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=minnesota-vikings

Brett Favre was brutally pummeled in that championship game. Inspite of it all he stood in there somehow again and damn near pulled it out for the Saints losing another Super Bowl bid in OT by 3 points.

I never saw a QB get beat up that bad and stay in the game. It was brutal the way his OL left him out on an island; vulnerable to the time and again viscious Saints hits.

Vikings HC Brad Childress was pissed at his OL during the half time break in that game. the Vikings OL were someplace else but in that game. Was the SAINTS 'D' possibly just that brutal or inspired on that day by a silly bonus system? I'm shocked that Pro atletes can possibly believe that they can get away with such Neanderthal behaviour.

Length of career and quality of life issues are raised here.


GO PACKERS !

I heard there was a $10,000 bounty on Favre in that playoff game! :shock:

These bounties are nothing new. I have no problem with guys pooling monies to pay teammates for INTs and such but purposely injuring another player is beyond the pale.

[sheepshead]

Someone should be banned from the NFL for life if indisputable evidence exists. It's almost criminal.

[Fosco33]

I get the reaction - but in many ways - I'm a little surprised at the over reaction. These guys get paid MILLIONS per year to play their position as best they can. And on any given play - a guy lands a little funny and he's out for the year.

Should guys be trying to intentionally hurt each other - no.

But they should be trying to knock the crap out of each other... that's what they're paid to do!

And if coaches aren't doing it - I'd be shocked if this wasn't more common as bets between players - for money or other things (bragging rights, etc.).

No one could honestly tell me they weren't somewhat pleased to see the first big sack/hit vs. Favre from the Pack or knocking Cutler out of the NFCC.

Or maybe it's just me...

[Pugger]

The thing is Goodell has been preaching player safety and this flies in the face of that mantra so Goodell will drop the hammer down hard on that franchise.

[gbgary]

Someone should be banned from the NFL for life if indisputable evidence exists. It's almost criminal.

williams confessed with apology to the league.

[gbgary]

I get the reaction - but in many ways - I'm a little surprised at the over reaction. These guys get paid MILLIONS per year to play their position as best they can. And on any given play - a guy lands a little funny and he's out for the year.

Should guys be trying to intentionally hurt each other - no.

But they should be trying to knock the crap out of each other... that's what they're paid to do!

And if coaches aren't doing it - I'd be shocked if this wasn't more common as bets between players - for money or other things (bragging rights, etc.).

No one could honestly tell me they weren't somewhat pleased to see the first big sack/hit vs. Favre from the Pack or knocking Cutler out of the NFCC.

Or maybe it's just me...

player to player money exchange has probably been going on for years but this is/was management sanctioned...a bit of a difference.

[Fosco33]

Another odd thing I read. You can't give incentive to players for individual game performances - say for INTs/Sacks. My guess - because it would essentially be an unlimited spend - outside the contract and cap.

The writers made it seem like it was part of the ethics of the game.

WTF?

There are TONS of incentive-laden contracts. Peyton allmighty is the classic talk of the heads recently as an option for next year.

I'm certainly not opposed to incentive-laden contracts - nor would I be opposed to a team having a known pool of incentives (part of their cap) that they could designate to motivate players or make up for players having a rock star year and not getting reimbursed.

No Fun League

[Lurker64]

williams confessed with apology to the league.

He also lied to NFL investigators during the initial investigation. I think a permanent ban on Gregg Williams wouldn't be excessive. "Intentionally injuring other players" is something the NFL can neither allow, nor can they even allow the impression that players are trying to intentionally injury each other. Every job Williams has in the NFL from here on out will have the appearance of impropriety , and that's something the NFL really doesn't want.

Mickey Loomis is definitely out of the NFL for good (he lied to NFL investigators, and he lied to his boss), and Williams should be. I would give Sean Payton a two year suspension.

[pbmax]

Matt Bowen recalling the bounties of the Williams led Redskin defense: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0304-bowen-nfl--20120304,0,4015992.column

Bowen's memories are not quite the QB killing machine picture that is being reported about the Saints bounty practices. He remembers a pot consisting of fines from an NFL version of a baseball kangaroo court and the money paid out for INTs, forced fumbles and sacks. He recalls money paid for clean hard hits like getting a RB below the knees. Darren Sharper denies people were paid to hurt others while he was on the Saints (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/02/darren-sharper-denies-saints-had-bounties-for-hurting-opponents/) but seems to acknowledge other payouts for performance during games.

So I think, at least in the Saints case, Williams system was "enhanced" by Vilma and a few other players who made it a blatant pay for injury scheme at $10,000 for Favre. And its likely that the Saints players weren't the only ones to take the scheme to that extent (I would be stunned if this hadn't cropped up at least periodically on the Redskins or Titans).

The original report was the investigation into Vilma's $10,000 offer wasn't it? Which means had the underlying pay for performance not been turned up, this story would not have gone any further. Goodell said the investigation had closed (or stopped) until new information came to light.

And this will impact the Packers 2012 season. Gregg Williams best friend in the NFL is Jeff Fisher. Both are products of Buddy Ryan, the originator of this kind of bounty system. The Pacers face The Schwartz twice (a product of Fisher/Ryan), the Rams (Fisher/Williams) and the Saints next year. Wonder if Ndamokung was just trying to get paid?

Finally, the Packers are not exactly free and clear here. Reggie White refused to believe he shouldn't attempt to knock a QB out of the game and that attitude was undoubtedly encouraged by Buddy Ryan in Philadelphia prior to his arrival in the Emerald City.

[smuggler]

From what I have heard:

Saints will lose their second round pick this season. They will also lose one other pick that will be from next year's draft, possibly the first rounder.
GM Loomis will be fined $1,000,000, if he is not fired by the Saints
Coach Sean Peyton will see the maximum fine of $750,000 and will see at least a two game suspension, if he is not fired by the Saints
DC Gregg Williams will be suspended for one year without pay and face a fine. The Rams will almost certainly fire him. He will probably never coach a meaningful position in the NFL again.
LB Jon Vilma will face at least a two game suspension, which probably will not include an additional fine. He is expected to be released for a cobination of cap and PR reasons.
LB Scott Fujita will face at least a one game fine, " ".
DB Roman Harper will face the same
As many as 24 other players may also see fines and/or suspensions.

Loomis, Payton, and Williams, as well as any player that received a payment from the pool are subject to civil and/or criminal law for their actions. It is not known if the findings of the NFL investigation would be admissible as evidence in a criminal conspiracy case.

The Saints are liable for injuries that were coordinated under the pool system. Favre has a good case to sue. Steve Smith, and others as well.

This doesn't include anything they uncover in their investigations of the Redskins.

[Lurker64]

That almost seems too light. I think the NFL suspends Payton and Loomis at least a year, and Williams will get the Johnny Jolly "indefinite suspension" treatment.

The players should get off comparatively lightly.

[Fritz]

Somehow I don't think it'll all be that seriously disciplined. I see a slap on the wrist for Payton, some fine, maybe a forfeiture of a fourth round pick or something, and maybe a one-game suspension for the players like Vilma who ponied up.

[Lurker64]

Somehow I don't think it'll all be that seriously disciplined. I see a slap on the wrist for Payton, some fine, maybe a forfeiture of a fourth round pick or something, and maybe a one-game suspension for the players like Vilma who ponied up.

You're forgetting that "player safety" is Roger Goodell's defining obsession. Noe only did the Saints players encourage each other to deliberately injure opponents, but they were so encouraged by management, and management out-and-out lied to the NFL about it when asked during an official investigation. There is no way the Saints get off easier on this than the Pats did with Spygate. Also, this is a salary cap violation.

[Pugger]

One severe 'punishment' might be that Williams gets canned and never gets another meaningful job in the NFL.

[Lurker64]

One severe 'punishment' might be that Williams gets canned and never gets another meaningful job in the NFL.

Loomis is definitely getting canned and will never get another meaningful job in the NFL.

Saints owner Tom Benson told Loomis to make sure the bounty thing was ended before this became a big issue, Loomis lied to his boss and said it was. "Lying to your boss and getting the entire organization in a ton of trouble" is a good way to ensure that nobody will ever put you in a position of similar responsibility again.

[smuggler]

They're definitely screwed. They're going to have to cut Sedrick Ellis and Jon Vilma, most likely. That saves them $10m on the cap, so they can make an offer to Nicks, conceivably, and still afford to pay Brees. Colston is so gone that it's not funny.

Players who are recorded as taking payments will probably miss at least one game each.

[Lurker64]

Florio makes an excellent point about Williams: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/nfl-will-now-investigate-redskins-bounty-program/


... And if the use of a bounty program with the Redskins is indeed news to the NFL, it likely means that, when Gregg Williams inevitably was given a chance to purge his soul by confessing the depth of the rabbit hole, he said something like “I swear I never did it before being hired by the Saints.”

If that’s the case — if Williams lied to the league about pre-New Orleans bounties after initially lying to the league about using bounties with the Saints — Williams has to go. Permanently.

Apart from any discipline imposed on the Saints or any other coaches or any of the players involved, if Williams failed to admit the extent of his use of a bounty program after finally admitting to using one in New Orleans, the man who recently was hired to serve as the Rams defensive coordinator should be banned from the NFL, for life.

Harsh? Yes. But necessary.

Apart from the habit (not mistake) of dangling cash as an incentive to cripple, Williams hasn’t been honest, at least when asked about bounties in New Orleans and most likely when asked about bounties elsewhere.

Williams both broke the rules and lied to conceal it. Given the underlying nature of the violation, the NFL can’t afford to keep him employed, not at a time when safety has become such a priority.

If he really has lied to the NFL that much, I don't see any reason not to give him the Pete Rose treatment.

[KYPack]

From what I have heard:

Saints will lose their second round pick this season. They will also lose one other pick that will be from next year's draft, possibly the first rounder.
GM Loomis will be fined $1,000,000, if he is not fired by the Saints
Coach Sean Peyton will see the maximum fine of $750,000 and will see at least a two game suspension, if he is not fired by the Saints
DC Gregg Williams will be suspended for one year without pay and face a fine. The Rams will almost certainly fire him. He will probably never coach a meaningful position in the NFL again.
LB Jon Vilma will face at least a two game suspension, which probably will not include an additional fine. He is expected to be released for a cobination of cap and PR reasons.
LB Scott Fujita will face at least a one game fine, " ".
DB Roman Harper will face the same
As many as 24 other players may also see fines and/or suspensions.

Loomis, Payton, and Williams, as well as any player that received a payment from the pool are subject to civil and/or criminal law for their actions. It is not known if the findings of the NFL investigation would be admissible as evidence in a criminal conspiracy case.

The Saints are liable for injuries that were coordinated under the pool system. Favre has a good case to sue. Steve Smith, and others as well.

This doesn't include anything they uncover in their investigations of the Redskins.

One million bananas, Smuggler? Christ, I wish I could afford to pay a fine like that.

That would be a bit of sting, eh?

Williams might get canned for this.

Sean Payton is a slick bastard, I bet he'll get himself out of this deal with a light punishment.

[ND72]

NFL released a 50,000 page document about this to all teams. 50,000!?!?!?

Espn radio today said this could be what happens:
1. Loomis - heavy fine around $1 mil, and suspension for season of all football related activity with ay team, unless fired.
2. Williams - Suspended for at least this season and fined.
3. Payton - talks of suspending him up to 6 regular season games plus a fine. Suspension would mean no activity with team of any kind. Unless fired.
4. Vilma - 8 game suspension and fine.
5. Every player listed in report suspended anywhere from 1-4 games plus fines. They said there is one unnamed player right now could face a year suspension.
6. Saints - organization could be fined, and lose up to 4 draft picks over next 2-3 seasons.

Wowzer...

[Patler]

Put yourself in the position of the owner. Your top management levels intentionally did things they had to know were wrong. At least one lied to you about it, and intentionally disobeyed your direct instructions. They lied to investigators.

Do you, as owner, have any option but to clean house? I could never trust the GM or HC again. Both would be fired. Several others in addition to Payton (and not only coaches) are reported to have known about it and/or put up money for it. I would get rid of them all, because I could never trust their judgement again.

It is the only way to begin restoring the image of the franchise. Everyone associated with it would be fired, if I were the owner.

[Pugger]

If the owner doesn't clean house that will speak volumes.

[sheepshead]

As I said, Williams needs to be banned or at the very least black balled.

[red]

will, it has now come out that williams also had a bounty system in washington. which he told goodell that he did have.

and now this morning it has come out that that he also had the system when he was head coach of the bills

by the time this all gets sorted out, the guy will never again be allowed to be within 500 feet of an nfl stadium

[swede]

If the Saints owner fires everyone and bounty-collecting players are suspended w/o pay for several games I do not know why you would punish the team beyond 2013 in terms of picks. If Payton and Loomis keep their jobs, I could see extending the penalty, yeah.

Remembering the severe penalties for Spygate, of which the precipitating bad deeds amused me more than angered me, I think we should not be surprised to find that a great big freaking axe is taken to the Saints draft picks for the next two years.

[Iron Mike]

Who Dat??

[pbmax]

That almost seems too light. I think the NFL suspends Payton and Loomis at least a year, and Williams will get the Johnny Jolly "indefinite suspension" treatment.

The players should get off comparatively lightly.

I dunno. That list of fines and penalties almost looks like a wish list. I don't think the NFL has ever leveled a million dollar fine at an individual, and I don't remember it happening to a team. The penalties in the Patriots videotape case were nowhere near this, were they?

It will be interesting to see. The Vilma information has been around for awhile, so I could see him avoiding the brunt of the penalty.

[pbmax]

Loomis is definitely getting canned and will never get another meaningful job in the NFL.

Saints owner Tom Benson told Loomis to make sure the bounty thing was ended before this became a big issue, Loomis lied to his boss and said it was. "Lying to your boss and getting the entire organization in a ton of trouble" is a good way to ensure that nobody will ever put you in a position of similar responsibility again.

Reports are that Benson is keeping him at his post. No report on whether the NFL would want him out or will do it themselves.

[pbmax]

Put yourself in the position of the owner. Your top management levels intentionally did things they had to know were wrong. At least one lied to you about it, and intentionally disobeyed your direct instructions. They lied to investigators.

Do you, as owner, have any option but to clean house? I could never trust the GM or HC again. Both would be fired. Several others in addition to Payton (and not only coaches) are reported to have known about it and/or put up money for it. I would get rid of them all, because I could never trust their judgement again.

It is the only way to begin restoring the image of the franchise. Everyone associated with it would be fired, if I were the owner.

Unless you as owner knew it was going on and Mickey Loomis is your walking talking alibi. Matt Bowen has already confirmed that this has happened elsewhere. I have serious doubts that the organizations that hired him did not know. Joe Gibbs claims he is shocked, but I find it hard to believe since players say this goes on everywhere.

[Joemailman]

This pretty much confirms my thoughts from 2 years ago that some of the hits on Favre were dirty football and a deliberate intent to seriously injure.

I guess now we know why the Saints were willing to let Williams leave to become the Rams DC. They knew the hammer was coming down sooner or later.

[mraynrand]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bfnYp?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=minnesota-vikings

Brett Favre was brutally pummeled in that championship game. Inspite of it all he stood in there somehow again and damn near pulled it out for the Saints losing another Super Bowl bid in OT by 3 points.

I never saw a QB get beat up that bad and stay in the game. It was brutal the way his OL left him out on an island; vulnerable to the time and again viscious Saints hits.

Vikings HC Brad Childress was pissed at his OL during the half time break in that game. the Vikings OL were someplace else but in that game. Was the SAINTS 'D' possibly just that brutal or inspired on that day by a silly bonus system? I'm shocked that Pro atletes can possibly believe that they can get away with such Neanderthal behaviour.

Length of career and quality of life issues are raised here.


GO PACKERS !


It wasn't as brutal as the pick he choked up to Tracy Porter to end their season.


Luv 'em or hate 'em, Favre was an absolute warrior in that game.

[ND72]

Luv 'em or hate 'em, Favre was an absolute warrior in that game.

It was the best game I ever watched...

[smuggler]

I dunno. That list of fines and penalties almost looks like a wish list.

They are going to lay the hammer. Loomis and Payton both knew about it. That's just as bad as Belichik in the Spygate scandal.

Except this involves a ton of players. Everyone is dirty in this. They all have to get hit with something. The team is going to lose its first rounder next year and probably one more draft pick.

[Lurker64]

They are going to lay the hammer. Loomis and Payton both knew about it. That's just as bad as Belichik in the Spygate scandal.

This is actually much, much worse than Spygate. When the NFL investigated the Pats, the Pats said "okay, here's all the tapes" and worked with investigators, and got off lightly for their cooperation. With the Saints however, the coach, the general manager, the assistant coaches, and the players directly lied to an official (and expensive) NFL investigation. Only when a smoking gun cropped up later (someone blew the whistle by giving the NFL a series of e-mail correspondences that confirmed the existence of a bounty system), did Benson, Payton, Williams, and company tell the truth to NFL investigators. They're going to get *nailed* for lying to NFL investigators. Apparently Williams lied again when he "came clean" by claiming that he had never done this sort of thing before, and the recent reports of similar bounty systems on Williams coached teams in Washington and Buffalo have convinced NFL Security that they need to escort him to a one on one meeting with the Commissioner tomorrow.

"Running an illegal bounty system" is going to get them in much, much less trouble than lying to NFL investigators. "You can get away with it by lying to our internal investigators" is something that the NFL absolutely cannot abide by, even less so than "you can circumvent the salary cap" or "you can entice your players to deliberately injure opponents."

[pbmax]

Its reached the Titans/Oilers and the reporter (Jim Wyatt) has evidence it predates Williams and traces back to Buddy Ryan. Titans continued the players system under Jim Schwartz. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/oilerstitans-had-performance-pool-too/

The interesting thing here is the dichotomy between the player run system and the reported system being run by the Saints. Players seem to emphasize that they paid out for big hits, some gong so far as to call for legal hits. The Saints were paying for injuries as well.

I would not be surprised if the players insistence on legal hits was more for public consumption than the enforced standard. But it makes me wonder when Williams changed, or if the players made the alterations along the way. It wouldn't be that far to travel along the continuum, as Ryan used to point out to his defenses that if you took out the offenses' best player, you were more likely to win. That was the lesson Reggie White learned in Philly.

[pbmax]

I had missed this. The Saints bounty program was funded, in part, from outside contributors. http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/35066335

That outside contributor is Michael Ornstein and the NFL apparently has his ties to the Saints and Sean Payton dead to rights. They have an email where he pledges money toward taking out a QB. Apparently, he has a personal relationship with Sean Payton. That's bad enough and makes you wonder if the Saints were out of control or if this is far more evolved around the league than current reporting/wisdom implies.

But as bad as that is, it gets worse. Michael Ornstein has been in legal trouble before. He was the money behind Reggie Bush's ineligibility at USC and has done prison time for fraud (I have no details on the charges **).

http://deadspin.com/5890499/meet-the-convicted-felon-who-defrauded-the-nfl-made-reggie-bush-ineligible-and-funded-the-saints-bounty-program

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17595418


** Oh, it gets cleverer. Ornstein was bilking the NFL as a marketing rep. He submitted fake invoices and then pocketed the payments. He was convicted of felony mail fraud. Perhaps it was wise not to hire Sean Payton, his judgement seems a wee bit off. Why on God's green earth would you associate with a felon who defrauded your own employer?

[mraynrand]

I agree with Patler. Trust evaporates with stuff like this. This is huge. A lot of guys are going to get canned; even if teams vastly prioritize winning over integrity (see for reference Bill Belicheat and the Patriots), this is just too big to go away with even severe fines.

[red]

if what pb says turns out to be true then peyton also needs to be banned, not just williams.

and the saints should be stripped of even more then just this years 1st round pick

NFL needs to drop the hammer on this team

if someone is paying players under the table, wouldn't that also be a cap violation?

[pbmax]

if someone is paying players under the table, wouldn't that also be a cap violation?

Yes, it is.

[red]

Yes, it is.

then we're close to NFL "death penalty" territory IMO

bring the hammer down on them

[Joemailman]

then we're close to NFL "death penalty" territory IMO

bring the hammer down on them

What would the "death penalty" be? Force them to move to L.A.?

[Lurker64]

What would the "death penalty" be? Force them to move to L.A.?

Purple uniforms

[Joemailman]

if what pb says turns out to be true then peyton also needs to be banned, not just williams.

and the saints should be stripped of even more then just this years 1st round pick

NFL needs to drop the hammer on this team

if someone is paying players under the table, wouldn't that also be a cap violation?

Saints don't even have a 1st round pick. They traded it last year to move up and get Mark Ingram. The Saints might not have much to do this year during the draft.

[hoosier]

Instead of docking the Saints draft picks, maybe a better punishment would to oblige Benson to fire Loomis and Payton, and hire Matt Millen and Chilly to replace them. And then commit to living with that couple for three years.

[Joemailman]

It's probably also a good thing that TT hired McCarthy instead of Payton.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/JimBobSkeeter/ThanksTed.jpg

[red]

What would the "death penalty" be? Force them to move to L.A.?

close, minnesota


i would say, the gm and head coach get suspended for at least a year. multiple 1st round draft picks taken away. all players that showed up in the report get at least a half year suspension.

any assistant coaches that knew about it are also out for a year

maybe take away more then just 1st round picks. no picks this year or next maybe? take away the franchise tag? brees hits the market then

that would hit the team hard

steve young (a part time lawyer i guess) also mentioned that any players that were hurt while playing against the saints the last three years can now sue the saints organization

this is gonna get big time ugly fast and goodell better play fair and nail the owner and his team

[smuggler]

Actually, steve is right. If they targeted specific players and they were injured, and it's documented, the players have a great case in civil court for damages.

[smuggler]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/JimBobSkeeter/ThanksTed.jpg

Maybe we should all get #12 jerseys that say "THANKS BRETT" no wait, that would be classless, let's leave it to dumb 'Queens fans.

[Patler]

I doubt any injured players would have much of a case.

[smuggler]

Why's that? Remember, (usually, depending on the state) all a plaintiff needs to establish is a preponderance of evidence. Set up a plausible motive and you're there.

I don't know if there were any players that were singled out as targets that were devastatingly injured by the Saints, but Favre comes to mind as a possibility. He needed surgery on his ankle after that game.

[Patler]

Were any of the plays that caused injury far outside the rules of the game? Were the players fined? Were they even penalized? If the plays occurred without the "bounty" system, would there have been a cause of action?

If players had been targeted, but without the bounty, the league would not have made a big deal about it, and no one would be suggesting civil liability. The fact that there was a bounty does not change the legal culpability, in my opinion.

Physical intimidation is and always will be a part of the game. Focusing that on key players from the other team is and will always be a part of the game. Teams often hide or misreport injuries to protect players from other teams going at the injury.

Trying to put a player out of a game is not unique to a bounty system, and it is a risk assumed by all participants in a contact sport. Defensive players have been trying to knock QBs out of the game forever.

[sheepshead]

There's a subtle but important difference between 'helmet stickers' and intentionally injuring someone to the point where it could effect his livelihood and/or quality of life. rewarding for great plays is fine. Manninghams SB catch - great play. Charles Martin slamming McMahon- not so much.

[pbmax]

Were any of the plays that caused injury far outside the rules of the game? Were the players fined? Were they even penalized? If the plays occurred without the "bounty" system, would there have been a cause of action?

If players had been targeted, but without the bounty, the league would not have made a big deal about it, and no one would be suggesting civil liability. The fact that there was a bounty does not change the legal culpability, in my opinion.

Physical intimidation is and always will be a part of the game. Focusing that on key players from the other team is and will always be a part of the game. Teams often hide or misreport injuries to protect players from other teams going at the injury.

Trying to put a player out of a game is not unique to a bounty system, and it is a risk assumed by all participants in a contact sport. Defensive players have been trying to knock QBs out of the game forever.

I agree that the bounties would not be trump in a court case about this, but criminal charges have been leveled and successfully prosecuted against hockey players for egregious conduct on the ice (though the case I am thinking about was in Canada). So its not far fetched. It's simply not a slam dunk only to have been on such a list.

Reggie White turning Brett Favre's arm to land squarely on his shoulder might not get you there. But to do it after identifying Favre as a target and being offered extra-legal and extra-rule monetary incentives to do so could be enough. Especially after a public admission that that was precisely what you intended to do.

Injuring Favre's non-throwing shoulder might not have been enough to initiate an action. But if it had been his head or knee and took him out of the game, I could see it. And in the civil cases, the threshold of proof would be lower.

[swede]

Reggie White turning Brett Favre's arm to land squarely on his shoulder might not get you there. But to do it after identifying Favre as a target and being offered extra-legal and extra-rule monetary incentives to do so could be enough. Especially after a public admission that that was precisely what you intended to do.


?

What year was this, old timer?

[K-town]

1992.

[Patler]

I agree that the bounties would not be trump in a court case about this, but criminal charges have been leveled and successfully prosecuted against hockey players for egregious conduct on the ice (though the case I am thinking about was in Canada). So its not far fetched. It's simply not a slam dunk only to have been on such a list.

Reggie White turning Brett Favre's arm to land squarely on his shoulder might not get you there. But to do it after identifying Favre as a target and being offered extra-legal and extra-rule monetary incentives to do so could be enough. Especially after a public admission that that was precisely what you intended to do.

Injuring Favre's non-throwing shoulder might not have been enough to initiate an action. But if it had been his head or knee and took him out of the game, I could see it. And in the civil cases, the threshold of proof would be lower.

The hockey incidents I know of have all been the result of extremely egregious conduct, most involved going after a player with their stick. Typically, the players received long suspensions by the league before any legal action occurred. Even so, by and large the cases have amounted to little of nothing in the criminal courts. Most have been dismissed, or resulted in small fines. I'm not aware of any significant civil litigation that was successfully completed, even when players careers were ended.

But, there is a real good example from hockey, Todd Bertuzzi's attack on Steve Moore:

- Moore hit a Vancouver player (Naslund) causing a concussion and elbow injury. The hit was at center ice, no penalty on the play, reviewed after by the league and ruled to be a legal hit.
- Vancouver coaches and players were incensed, criticized it openly, and said they would go after Moore. One of Naslund's linemates put up a bounty on Moore, and it was well-known at the time. Bertuzzi was very vocal about it, too. So much so that:
- League officials came to the next game between the teams, to try to maintain control. Nothing happened.
- In a later game that season, players went after Moore. Moore accepted a fight very early in the game. Traditionally, that should have been the end of it. Vancouver stood up for it's scorer (Naslund) and Moore defended his own honor by taking an early fight challenge. But Bertuzzi kept going after Moore the rest of the game. Moore didn't take the bait early from Bertuzzi.
- As Moore was skating rather nonchalantly late in the game, Bertuzzi came from behind, grabbed Moore, sucker punched him to the back of the head, threw him to the ice and jumped on him as other players also piled on.
- Moore was seriously injured, laid on the ice a long time, and has never played since. It ended his career.
- Bertuzzi was in tears the next day, apologizing profusely.
- Within a couple days, the NHL suspended Bertuzzi indefinitely and the team was fined.
- The IHF also suspended Bertuzzi so he couldn't play in any international leagues or world play (Important because of the lockout).
- Bertuzzi was reinstated about a year and a half later.

Criminal charges against Bertuzzi amounted to little of nothing, plea bargained down to community service. An interesting aspect of the case was that a probation sentence for assault in Canada would have prevented Bertuzzi from being where Moore was, so if Moore had been able to play, Bertuzzi could not have played against him. Since Moore's career was ended, this amounted to nothing.

Moore sued Bertuzzi both in Colorado and in Ontario. The US case was dismissed. The last I heard, the Canadian case is still pending, 8 years after the fact.

Bertuzzi still plays.

[pbmax]

I was specifically referring to Bertuzzi. The US civil case was dismissed because the judge ruled that it should be filed in Canada, not because it was without merit. The Canadian case was filed two years after the incident, so it has been ongoing for 6 years, not eight and there have been reports of two settlement offers made and not accepted. One of those settlement offers was facilitated by the Commissioner and if Wikipedia is to be believed, the plaintiff hasn't asked for the case to begin until all remaining medical issues are known. Its possible it will amount to nothing, but at least both sides agree it was worth settling for some amount of money.

I think the fact that Bertuzzi was charged and plea bargained to guilty of assault and battery speaks for itself. Whether Bertuzzi paid a heavy price or not, he plead guilty in court.

Bertuzzi claims he was encouraged in the attack by his coach at the time. The team and coach denied this. There is no evidence that I know of that the Canucks had a system of reimbursing players for retaliatory hits, and so the bounty would appear to be either a one time thing or on an ad hoc basis.

In the case of people targeted by the Saints, there is a record of both penalties and fines for hits on players who were on the bounty list. There is a publicly acknowledged system for reimbursing players (whether money actually changed hands and changed hands for those incidents is unknown to me). The system was run by an assistant coach, and known to the Head Coach, General Manager and the Owner. They were dumb enough to keep a record of contributions in email. Some of them may have been dumb enough to have kept a record of who was on the list, or who got paid what, elsewhere.

I think there is a case there for anyone willing to go there, though as I said, there may not be as obvious a victim (or as big a financial loss) as Moore.

[Lurker64]

Wouldn't any lawsuits raised by players injured by Gregg Williams defenses be contested in civil court where the burden of proof is significantly lower? All you would have to prove that Williams's players are liable for damages in civil court is that they are more culpable than not.

I imagine a good lawyer (and Peyton Manning could hire good lawyers) could make that case.

[sharpe1027]

If you can cobble together enough of an argument to make it to the Jury, anything can happen. Just ask OJ or Casey Anthony.

[Patler]

I was specifically referring to Bertuzzi. The US civil case was dismissed because the judge ruled that it should be filed in Canada, not because it was without merit. The Canadian case was filed two years after the incident, so it has been ongoing for 6 years, not eight and there have been reports of two settlement offers made and not accepted. One of those settlement offers was facilitated by the Commissioner and if Wikipedia is to be believed, the plaintiff hasn't asked for the case to begin until all remaining medical issues are known. Its possible it will amount to nothing, but at least both sides agree it was worth settling for some amount of money.

Not sure if you intended this as a rebuttal to something I wrote or not, but I didn't write or intend to suggest that the US case was dismissed on merit, just that it was dismissed, to make it clear that it no longer exists in active form. The dismissal speaks neither to the merit or nonmerit of the case.

As to the case in Canada, again I didn't say the Canadian case was pending 8 years, I said it was still pending eight years after the fact, ie. the event alleged as the basis for the cause of action. That's a long time, even for Canada were civil litigation tends to drag on a long time. (I have some experience with the Canadian court system, albeit a lot out of date by now! :lol:) It's especially long for a plaintiff who can no longer play, so lost his then form of income.

I don't put a lot of stock in early settlement offers being any sort of indicator of the merit of the case for a defendent. They generally relate more to what the party thinks it might spend even if found without liability, or with minimal liability than it does on an estimate of value in the c.o.a. In Canada you have an additional factor as a defendant that you will be assessed for a reasonable amount of the other party's legal fees, even if the judgement is small. You can be correct in assessing your liability as small, but still have to write a pretty hefty check at the end of the case.


I think the fact that Bertuzzi was charged and plea bargained to guilty of assault and battery speaks for itself. Whether Bertuzzi paid a heavy price or not, he plead guilty in court.

Actually, I think it is just the opposite. This was a pretty blatant attack. He, his team mates and even some of the coaches "announced" that they would get even with Moore. The league was trying to guard against it, with top officials at their games, but it happened anyway. Everyone's conduct for the entire game was memorialized on tape for all to see. What did he get as a penalty? A couple weeks of community service as I recall, and probation for one year. If memory serves me correctly, his record was to be expunged if he made it through the probation without incident. Why wouldn't you accept that offer from the prosecutor, even if you thought yourself completely innocent? I sure would, because there is always a risk of the finder of fact deciding against you if you go to trial.


Bertuzzi claims he was encouraged in the attack by his coach at the time. The team and coach denied this. There is no evidence that I know of that the Canucks had a system of reimbursing players for retaliatory hits, and so the bounty would appear to be either a one time thing or on an ad hoc basis.

There was a well-announced intent to get the one guy, however, and a bounty on him. The coach, GM and players all spoke publicly about it. The league went to the effort of sending people to games to try and stop it, with the top league officials at the first rematch between them. It was in the papers and talked about before it even happened. It was a much more blatant undertaking than what the Saints did, but it was focused on just one guy


In the case of people targeted by the Saints, there is a record of both penalties and fines for hits on players who were on the bounty list. There is a publicly acknowledged system for reimbursing players (whether money actually changed hands and changed hands for those incidents is unknown to me). The system was run by an assistant coach, and known to the Head Coach, General Manager and the Owner. They were dumb enough to keep a record of contributions in email. Some of them may have been dumb enough to have kept a record of who was on the list, or who got paid what, elsewhere.

I think there is a case there for anyone willing to go there, though as I said, there may not be as obvious a victim (or as big a financial loss) as Moore.

But, in my opinion, it still come down to whether or not there was any action by a player that was so outside the course of normal play that it exposed the injured player to risk well beyond that he naturally assumes by being a pro football player.

As I said, I doubt the hit list in and of itself would have been as big of a deal. They exist at all levels in contact sports, whether spoken or unspoken. The fact a reward system existed specifically violates league rules, apparently, but if the players still perform within the generally accepted parameters, I don't see how it makes anyone more culpable just because they got paid.

If Favre, for example, got knocked out on a legal hit, how is there liability even if the bounty system existed?

Were any Saints suspended or fined (significantly) for their play that year? I don't recall, but I don't remember thinking of them as being a "dirty" team.

[Freak Out]

Man......I let football fall off the radar for a couple of weeks and the shit hits the fan. Can't say I'm surprised by any of this.....we've all seen it before. It wouldn't surprise me if their wasn't a suspension as well as big fines.

[MJZiggy]

So I have a question: if the league comes down hard on these teams and they start losing draft picks--let's say to make things easy that the combined enforcement means that 10 picks are lost--what happens to those 10 picks. Are there 10 players who would have been drafted who are now left on the street or is there another way to distribute those picks?

[Joemailman]

So I have a question: if the league comes down hard on these teams and they start losing draft picks--let's say to make things easy that the combined enforcement means that 10 picks are lost--what happens to those 10 picks. Are there 10 players who would have been drafted who are now left on the street or is there another way to distribute those picks?

The picks won't be distributed. There will just be fewer picks. It's probably not that big a deal though since those last players who don't get picked will likely be signed by someone as UDFA's. Sometimes those players are better off since they can choose what team they go to.

[woodbuck27]

The hockey incidents I know of have all been the result of extremely egregious conduct, most involved going after a player with their stick. Typically, the players received long suspensions by the league before any legal action occurred. Even so, by and large the cases have amounted to little of nothing in the criminal courts. Most have been dismissed, or resulted in small fines. I'm not aware of any significant civil litigation that was successfully completed, even when players careers were ended.

But, there is a real good example from hockey, Todd Bertuzzi's attack on Steve Moore:

- Moore hit a Vancouver player (Naslund) causing a concussion and elbow injury. The hit was at center ice, no penalty on the play, reviewed after by the league and ruled to be a legal hit.
- Vancouver coaches and players were incensed, criticized it openly, and said they would go after Moore. One of Naslund's linemates put up a bounty on Moore, and it was well-known at the time. Bertuzzi was very vocal about it, too. So much so that:
- League officials came to the next game between the teams, to try to maintain control. Nothing happened.
- In a later game that season, players went after Moore. Moore accepted a fight very early in the game. Traditionally, that should have been the end of it. Vancouver stood up for it's scorer (Naslund) and Moore defended his own honor by taking an early fight challenge. But Bertuzzi kept going after Moore the rest of the game. Moore didn't take the bait early from Bertuzzi.
- As Moore was skating rather nonchalantly late in the game, Bertuzzi came from behind, grabbed Moore, sucker punched him to the back of the head, threw him to the ice and jumped on him as other players also piled on.
- Moore was seriously injured, laid on the ice a long time, and has never played since. It ended his career.
- Bertuzzi was in tears the next day, apologizing profusely.
- Within a couple days, the NHL suspended Bertuzzi indefinitely and the team was fined.
- The IHF also suspended Bertuzzi so he couldn't play in any international leagues or world play (Important because of the lockout).
- Bertuzzi was reinstated about a year and a half later.

Criminal charges against Bertuzzi amounted to little of nothing, plea bargained down to community service. An interesting aspect of the case was that a probation sentence for assault in Canada would have prevented Bertuzzi from being where Moore was, so if Moore had been able to play, Bertuzzi could not have played against him. Since Moore's career was ended, this amounted to nothing.

Moore sued Bertuzzi both in Colorado and in Ontario. The US case was dismissed. The last I heard, the Canadian case is still pending, 8 years after the fact.

Bertuzzi still plays.

Here is the way it was:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz9RE9RGrVY

[woodbuck27]

So I have a question: if the league comes down hard on these teams and they start losing draft picks--let's say to make things easy that the combined enforcement means that 10 picks are lost--what happens to those 10 picks. Are there 10 players who would have been drafted who are now left on the street or is there another way to distribute those picks?

Sticking with that number or Ten. There would be ten less college players drafted (ten picks omitted from the Colllege Draft) and presumably these ten unidentifiable College players would consequently become UFA's (Undrafted free Agents).

[Lurker64]

So I have a question: if the league comes down hard on these teams and they start losing draft picks--let's say to make things easy that the combined enforcement means that 10 picks are lost--what happens to those 10 picks. Are there 10 players who would have been drafted who are now left on the street or is there another way to distribute those picks?


When the league takes away picks as a penalty, those picks just disappear. When the Patriots lost a first round pick from Spygate, there were only 31 picks in the first round and the rest of the draft went along as usual.

Normally there are 256 picks in a draft, but in 2008 (the Spygate year) the Patriots lost a first round pick due to spygate, the 49ers lost a 5th round pick due to a tampering charge, and the Chargers and Ravens gave up picks in the 2007 supplemental draft, so there were 252 picks.

Since the difference between being a 7th round pick and an undrafted free agent is not generally significant, there was no recompense given to the four players who were not drafted but would have otherwise been.

[woodbuck27]

I heard there was a $10,000 bounty on Favre in that playoff game! :shock:

These bounties are nothing new. I have no problem with guys pooling monies to pay teammates for INTs and such but purposely injuring another player is beyond the pale.

I agreee but then you get this reaction to this issue:


Updated: March 5, 2012, 3:21 PM ET

NFL should pay all players in bounties


Comments (http://espn.go.com/espn/conversations/_/id/7647758/nfl-pay-all-players-performance-based-bounties)196 (http://espn.go.com/espn/conversations/_/id/7647758/nfl-pay-all-players-performance-based-bounties)
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/Gallo_DJ_35.jpg (http://search.espn.go.com/dj-gallo/)

By DJ Gallo Page 2

I couldn't get the LINK to work in this post so I will include the entire article and ask you all.Is this fella (the writer - DJ Gallo) entirely serious?

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0305/pg2_gibbs_opp_576.jpg (http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7647758/nfl-pay-all-players-performance-based-bounties)

Getty ImagesDon't hide, Gregg Williams. That alleged "bounty" system might have its place in the NFL yet.



The bounty program the Saints had in place the past three seasons is the talk of the NFL. But as much as the league might wish it so, the Saints are not the only team that offered player bounties.


NFL Security is asking former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams about bounty programs in Washington and Buffalo. Linebacker Bart Scott, who has spent his career with the Ravens and Jets, says bounties have been common during his career. Retired players say bounties have always existed.


Instead of punishing the Saints and opening up a can of worms that might force the NFL to punish every team in the sport, the league should instead embrace bounties.


An NFL full of bounties would be a far better product. Here's how it would work.


Base salaries + bounties



The NFL already has base salaries in place. The minimum for rookies in 2012 is $390,000. That basement increases to $465,000 for players with one year of experience on up to a minimum salary of $925,000 for veterans with 10-plus years in the league.


The existing salary structure could be kept as is, or every player could be paid a base salary of $500,000 regardless of experience. Either way, no player could make less than the minimum -- but the only way to make more would be to perform well on the field by accruing bounties. There would be no massive salaries for Peyton Manning or Chris Johnson or Albert Haynesworth. The only way to get rich would be to collect bounty bonuses.


The benefits of such a system are obvious:


• Player pay based on merit, not past performance


• No underpaid players


• No overpaid players


• An increased quality of play, with everyone playing for their paycheck on every snap


But the positives don't stop there.


Veteran players



[+] Enlargehttp://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0305/nfl_u_manning_300.jpg (http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7647758/nfl-pay-all-players-performance-based-bounties#) Jerry Lai/US Presswire"Everyone to the end zone! Papa needs a new flat-screen TV."




Under a bounty-based player-payment system, the Colts would not be in the difficult position of deciding whether they want to keep franchise legend Peyton Manning. He would get his base salary, and if he could come back, show he's healthy and perform at his 2010 level -- say, 33 touchdowns at $200,000 per -- that would be $6.6 million right there, not including his base salary plus any other bounties available to him (game-winning drives, beating the Patriots, winning a playoff game). Whatever. Since Jim Irsay would be involved in the negotiation, Manning likely would be offered a substantial bounty in exchange for joining Twitter and retweeting his team owner.


With Manning locked in, the Colts still could draft Andrew Luck and have him on hand in case the veteran can't perform. They wouldn't be stuck paying two quarterbacks a huge salary. Whoever plays would make money; whoever doesn't would make the minimum.


Fan favorites on the obvious downside of their careers could stick around longer under the bounty system as well. The Steelers wouldn't have had to cut Hines Ward. Keep him for the $500,000 base and offer a $100,000 bounty for every touchdown and a $200,000 bounty for every Ravens player felled by a block. At the very least, the fans would be happy and Ward would barely dent the team's payroll; at the most, Ward would play with the joy and energy of a man half his age, pulling in touchdowns and knocking out rivals at a frightening clip.


Rookie players



Without huge guaranteed contracts for top picks, teams would no longer be financially doomed by busts. Instantly productive players such as Cam Newton and Andy Dalton would earn pay they deserved. Underperforming players such as JaMarcus Russell and Blaine Gabbert would have to survive on the league minimum, forcing them to make difficult personal financial decisions -- decisions that could compel them to abandon their expensive cough syrup or hair-care habits and perhaps ultimately increasing their focus on football.


Bounties could change game-to-game



Teams could offer bounties around each week's game plan. Does a coach want to win the time-of-possession and turnover battles? His chances of doing that go up if he offers each player 10 grand to make it happen. Make it 50 grand, and you won't see a team possess a ball longer or tighter.


Fan interaction



The line between real football and fantasy football gets blurrier every year. A huge percentage of weekly NFL viewers are watching simply to see how their fantasy players perform. Players openly acknowledge trying to score touchdowns for their fantasy owners.


[+] Enlargehttp://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0305/page2_g_johnson_gb1_300.jpg (http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7647758/nfl-pay-all-players-performance-based-bounties#) Joe Robbins/Getty ImagesWho wants to help fund Chris Johnson's fantasy touchdown Kickstarter?




So why not do away with the line completely and merge real football with fantasy football? Allow fans to offer up bounties. Would you offer $10, $20, $100 or even $1,000 to a player on your fantasy team for a touchdown? You might not, but plenty of others would.


If the NFL partnered with an online crowdfunding service like Kickstarter, players could see what bounties are available to them each week. You alone offering Chris Johnson 20 bucks for a touchdown might not do much, but 1,000 people nationwide doing the same? That's $20,000. Now we're getting into real money -- enough to possibly convince Johnson to turn upfield with some spring in his step.


The benefits are obvious. But are there some issues to work through? Sure.


How would the NFL prevent bounties for injuring other players?



A bounty system would be self-policing. If a player takes out an opponent, he would know that a bounty would be raised -- both on the opposing team and by angry fans on Kickstarter -- to have him injured in return. Soon kill shots would be a thing of the past. The NFL would be like Texas rules: If everyone has a gun, people might think twice before drawing.


How does a team reward non-glory positions like offensive line or fullback?



Bounties don't have to be given just for touchdowns or sacks or interceptions. Want to give a player $100,000 for picking up a linebacker in the hole? Giants fullback Henry Hynoski could be the highest-paid player in the NFL. It's up to teams to structure their bounties around what they truly think is important. If they only want to reward touchdowns or knockout hits, it's their funeral. (Perhaps literally, in the latter case.)


Wouldn't good teams have massive payrolls while bad teams would be paying most of their players the league minimum?



Yes. Good teams would also make more money in season ticket revenue, merchandise sales and playoff games. Bad teams wouldn't make that money. Nothing would change. There wouldn't have to be a salary cap. A team's success would still be based on finding good players in the draft and through free agency, but there would be more pressure on management to win now. Smart fans can start a Kickstarter offering large sums to players who "accidentally" run over the team owner on the sidelines.


When Gregg Williams is called before Roger Goodell and NFL Security, he shouldn't be punished; he should be offered a job at the league office and put in charge of instituting a NFL-wide bounty program.


Bounties raise the level of play and create a meritocracy. Bounties are perfect. But just for football. Not for real life. Let's not have them seep into real life. You're probably reading this at work or in class, right? You would not be in line for a production-based bounty today. No, let NFL players get paid for their production. The rest of us are doing just fine.



DJ Gallo is the founder of SportsPickle.com. He has written a book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/031236363X/?tag=espncom-20&linkCode=asn&creativeASIN=031236363X) and written for Comedy Central, The Onion and ESPN The Magazine. You can follow him on Twitter at @DJGalloESPN (http://twitter.com/#!/djgalloespn).

[woodbuck27]

From what I have heard:

Saints will lose their second round pick this season. They will also lose one other pick that will be from next year's draft, possibly the first rounder.
GM Loomis will be fined $1,000,000, if he is not fired by the Saints
Coach Sean Peyton will see the maximum fine of $750,000 and will see at least a two game suspension, if he is not fired by the Saints
DC Gregg Williams will be suspended for one year without pay and face a fine. The Rams will almost certainly fire him. He will probably never coach a meaningful position in the NFL again.
LB Jon Vilma will face at least a two game suspension, which probably will not include an additional fine. He is expected to be released for a cobination of cap and PR reasons.
LB Scott Fujita will face at least a one game fine, " ".
DB Roman Harper will face the same
As many as 24 other players may also see fines and/or suspensions.

Loomis, Payton, and Williams, as well as any player that received a payment from the pool are subject to civil and/or criminal law for their actions. It is not known if the findings of the NFL investigation would be admissible as evidence in a criminal conspiracy case.

The Saints are liable for injuries that were coordinated under the pool system. Favre has a good case to sue. Steve Smith, and others as well.

This doesn't include anything they uncover in their investigations of the Redskins.

What is your source? The penaltys you mention above (rumour to me as it stands now) surprize me. Seems to me the shit might have hit the fan if your claims are somewhat correct.

[mraynrand]

Is this fella (the writer - DJ Gallo) entirely serious?
http://assets.espn.go.com/i/page2/logos/Page2_DJGallo_OffseasonPigskinpalooza_203x114.jpg

The football on his head should be a dead giveaway.

[pbmax]

Not sure if you intended this as a rebuttal to something I wrote or not, but I didn't write or intend to suggest that the US case was dismissed on merit,

I did and I may have misread you on that part, but it seemed the phrase on the dismissal was part of a list of hurdles such litigation would have to overcome. My apologies if that was not the case.

There is no doubt such a lawsuit would need an egregious example of injury and someone going out of their way to cause an injury. But I think hitting a QB in the chin after a handoff is close (and if memory serves, it was a clear shot to the head, not a glancing blow while tackling) but what is missing is the terrible injury.

I think the official sanction of the team and team officials surpasses the actions of the NHL folks, even their public statements, because of the stated intent and payment for injury. As you stated in your first run down, it would have been common for Moore to be subject to certain retaliation but not to the Bertuzzi action. It would be common in the NFL to find players trying to hit opponents hard enough to degrade their ability to perform. Far fewer would admit intent to injure to force a player to leave a game (out of simple self interest if nothing else). Most would wish to say 'I hit them hard enough to cause injury sometimes, and if they leave that is just part of the game. But I am not out to ruin careers' Few would say the goal was primarily to injure them. The target list makes that leap, it calls into question the motivation. And if motivation exists outside the normal course of a football game to cause injury, then you simply need to link it to the resultant injury.

The extra legal monetary incentives that violate NFL rules, the CBA and might interest the IRS (obviously dependent on the amounts) are the leverage or incentive to encourage the behavior. Bertuzzi's point about his coach calling for action went beyond the acknowledged public statements. Bertuzzi claims the coach still wanted retaliation after Moore had accepted the first fight. He claimed his coach kept bringing up Moore between periods by number and had it written on the whiteboard. Those claims are contested. The injury list and payments (assuming money changed hands) have been established for the Saints, as has the coach's authority in the matter and the team's acquiescence.

I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. And Patler, it seems that among your many experiences, you have dealt with lawyers or the legal system far more often than I, so I do nod to your experience in this matter. I simply think that one reason the NFL is so interested in this (actually its probably a secondary reason at the moment **) is that an explicit list and the sanction of the team put this matter in a different legal light than the rest of the on field aggression.


**The first reason, and its related, are player safety issues and the threat of lawsuits concerning head trauma. That, plus an 18 game season.

[woodbuck27]

SI report: Saints' Hargrove proclaimed, 'Favre is done!'

By Marc Sessler NFL.com


Updated: March 6, 2012 at 09:12 p.m.




The image is troubling: Gregg Williams at the front of the room, doling out cash-filled white envelopes to his Saints defenders, their payout for a signature play in the previous week's game. Rewards starting at $100 for a special teams tackle inside the 20 and up to $1,500 for knocking out an opponent, money the players would be encouraged to give right back, to increase the kitty.



Peter King's Sports Illustrated investigation (http://cnnsi.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?expire=&title=For+three+years,+the+NFL+says,+members+of+th e+Saints+-+03.12.12+-+SI+Vault&urlID=472015825&action=cpt&partnerID=289881&fb=Y&url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1195695/index.htm) into the Saints' "bounty" program paints the picture of a team deeply entangled in a "pay for performance" culture that reached a fever pitch during their 2009 Super Bowl season.

The swelling pot of money at the center of this circus reportedly spiked before their January 2010 NFC title game against the Vikings, when Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180) allegedly offered $10,000 to anyone who (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d827638bb) knocked quarterback Brett Favre out of the game.

Saints defensive linemen Bobby McCray and Anthony Hargrove (http://www.nfl.com/players/anthonyhargrove/profile?id=HAR144150) accounted for multiple penalties and $25,000 in fines for vicious hits on Favre in that 31-28 overtime win, and, as Favre was helped off the field with a sprained ankle, a fired-up Hargrove jawed with teammates, proclaiming: "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!"

King reports that, amid the chaos, an on-field microphone caught an unidentified Saints defender shouting, "Pay me my money!"

When Roger Goodell caught wind of the bounty system, he was devastated, a source close to the Commissioner told King.

"God forbid this is true," Goodell said, according to the source. "This will be earth-shattering."

[woodbuck27]

Favre happy 'the truth comes out' on Saints' practices





By Dan Hanzus NFL.com
Updated: March 5, 2012 at 07:17 p.m.



By Dan Hanzus NFL.com




Brett Favre wasn't "pissed" when Gregg Williams' illegal "bounty" program was exposed by the NFL, but he's happy the bill has come due for the Saints.

The league's two-year investigation yielded a direct connection to Favre by way of Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180), who allegedly offered $10,000 to any player who could knock the quarterback -- then with the Vikings -- out of the NFC Championship Game in January 2010.

"Now the truth comes out. That's good. But that's football," Favre told Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/03/05/offseason/index.html) while planting soybeans at his farm in Mississippi.

"The only thing that really pisses me off about the whole thing is we lost the game. That's the thing about that day that still bothers me. And that's the way it goes. If they wanted me to testify in court about this, they'd be calling the wrong guy."

Favre took a nasty beating in the 31-28 overtime loss, and the NFL's findings help explain why.

"It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys," Favre said.

"I would have loved to play with Vilma. Hell of a player. I've got a lot of respect for Gregg Williams. He's a great coach. I'm not going to make a big deal about it.

Saints' 'bounty' program exposed (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82757bcd)
http://static.nfl.com/content/catch_all/nfl_image/k_warner_120302_250.jpg (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82757bcd)
Latest news:
» League summary details Saints' evasiveness (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8276d243)
» SI: Hargrove proclaimed, 'Favre is done!' (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82769270)
» Darlington: An uncertain future for Saints (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82769624)
» Debate: What is proper punishment in scandal? (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82763417)
» Williams, NFL meet to discuss 'bounty' system (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82764845)
» Lombardi: Goodell faces biggest verdict yet (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82760ad9)
» Legal action not likely in 'bounty' scandal (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82761060)
» Williams told Saints to 'knock 'em ... out' (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8275f72f)
» Brooks: 'Pay for performance' is commonplace (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8275bb0f)

"In all honesty, there's a bounty of some kind on you on every play," Favre continued.

"Now, in that game there were some plays that, I don't want to say were odd, but I'd throw the ball and whack, on every play. Hand it off, whack. Over and over. Some were so blatant. I hand the ball to Percy Harvin (http://www.nfl.com/players/percyharvin/profile?id=HAR829482) early and got drilled right in the chin. They flagged that one at least."

Favre is referring to a hit early in the game in which New Orleans defensive lineman Bobby McCray popped the quarterback in the chin. The play drew a 15-yard unnecessary-roughness penalty and an eventual fine. Favre also was subjected to a pile-driving tackle by defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove (http://www.nfl.com/players/anthonyhargrove/profile?id=HAR144150) (another 15-yard foul and fine) and a brutal high-low takedown by McCray and defensive tackle Remi Ayodele (http://www.nfl.com/players/remiayodele/profile?id=AYO158817) (which drew, almost inexplicably, no flag).

Favre believed he broke his ankle on the high-low play. "I felt a lot of crunching in there," he said.

"I've always been friends with (former Saints safety) Darren Sharper, and he came in a couple times and popped me hard," Favre told King about his former Packers teammate.

"I remember saying, 'What THE hell you doing, Sharp?' I felt there should have been more calls against the Saints. I thought some of their guys should have been fined more."

If it's any consolation to Favre, the Saints undoubtedly will get those fines now. And that might be just the start of it.

[smuggler]

RIP Saints

[woodbuck27]

Ex-Vikings coach Brad Childress on Bountygate: NFL 'did what they needed to do'

March 6, 2012 5:54 AM GMT Updated: 03/05/2012 11:54:15 PM CST



http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site569/2010/1203/20101203__childress_300.jpg (http://www.twincities.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=4278518 )
Minnesota Vikings coach Brad Childress as his team plays the Green Bay Packers at Lambeau Field Sunday October 24, 2010. (Pioneer Press: Chris Polydoroff)



Related

Bountygate
New Orleans Saints coach, GM take 'full responsibility' for bounty program (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20114781/new-orleans-saints-coach-gm-take-full-responsibility?source=pkg)
Vikings' Brett Favre among New Orleans Saints' bounty targets, NFL says (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20088941?source=pkg)

Then-Vikings coach Brad Childress didn't have any problem accusing the New Orleans Saints of taking cheap shots at quarterback Brett Favre in the NFC Championship Game in 2010 - more than half a year after the fact.

"I understand a quarterback's going to get hit. People are going to get hit," Childress said in September of that year, in the days leading up to the 2010 season-opening rematch between the two teams. "It's football. I don't have any illusions about that.

"What I hate to see are the late hits or attempts to hurt anybody. I don't think there's a place for that in the game."

But now that the NFL has accused the Saints of taking out bounties on a number of players over the years, including Favre in that playoff game, Childress reportedly didn't want to rip the Saints or offer an I-told-you-so.

The new Cleveland Browns offensive coordinator reportedly told FOXSportsOhio.com (http://foxsportsohio.com/), in a story posted Monday, that Bountygate is "a league matter" and doesn't want to look back - even though he had addressed it entering the 2010 season.

"I just wasn't happy with the result of the game," Childress told FOXSportsOhio in a phone interview. "The league dealt with it. They did what they needed to do."

Vikings defensive end Jared Allen, speaking at a banquet Saturday in Kansas City, chose not to rip into the Saints, either, according to a Kansas City Star story posted over the weekend, but didn't condone the idea of bounties.

"If you're paying people to injure people, that's not the kind of league this is," Allen said. "If something illegal happened, the league will deal with it. It doesn't change the fact we lost the game. It doesn't change the fact they got a Super Bowl ring."

Looking back at all the hits on Favre during that game - Favre's ankle was seriously injured on one play - Allen said now it makes sense that there was a bounty. New Orleans linebacker Jonathan Vilma allegedly offered $10,000 to any Saint who knocked Favre out of the game.

"Brett was on fire that year," Allen said, according to the Star.

"If I (played for New Orleans and) could have got him out of the game, I would have tried, too. But legally, obviously."

[Scott Campbell]

In general I'm against bounties. But Greg Williams deserves a community service award for what they did to Favre.

[mraynrand]

Favre happy 'the truth comes out' on Saints' practices





By Dan Hanzus NFL.com
Updated: March 5, 2012 at 07:17 p.m.



By Dan Hanzus NFL.com




Brett Favre wasn't "pissed" when Gregg Williams' illegal "bounty" program was exposed by the NFL, but he's happy the bill has come due for the Saints.

The league's two-year investigation yielded a direct connection to Favre by way of Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180), who allegedly offered $10,000 to any player who could knock the quarterback -- then with the Vikings -- out of the NFC Championship Game in January 2010.

"Now the truth comes out. That's good. But that's football," Favre told Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/03/05/offseason/index.html) while planting soybeans at his farm in Mississippi.

"The only thing that really pisses me off about the whole thing is we lost the game. That's the thing about that day that still bothers me. And that's the way it goes. If they wanted me to testify in court about this, they'd be calling the wrong guy."

Favre took a nasty beating in the 31-28 overtime loss, and the NFL's findings help explain why.

"It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys," Favre said.

"I would have loved to play with Vilma. Hell of a player. I've got a lot of respect for Gregg Williams. He's a great coach. I'm not going to make a big deal about it.

Saints' 'bounty' program exposed (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82757bcd)
http://static.nfl.com/content/catch_all/nfl_image/k_warner_120302_250.jpg (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82757bcd)
Latest news:
» League summary details Saints' evasiveness (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8276d243)
» SI: Hargrove proclaimed, 'Favre is done!' (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82769270)
» Darlington: An uncertain future for Saints (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82769624)
» Debate: What is proper punishment in scandal? (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82763417)
» Williams, NFL meet to discuss 'bounty' system (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82764845)
» Lombardi: Goodell faces biggest verdict yet (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82760ad9)
» Legal action not likely in 'bounty' scandal (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82761060)
» Williams told Saints to 'knock 'em ... out' (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8275f72f)
» Brooks: 'Pay for performance' is commonplace (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d8275bb0f)

"In all honesty, there's a bounty of some kind on you on every play," Favre continued.

"Now, in that game there were some plays that, I don't want to say were odd, but I'd throw the ball and whack, on every play. Hand it off, whack. Over and over. Some were so blatant. I hand the ball to Percy Harvin (http://www.nfl.com/players/percyharvin/profile?id=HAR829482) early and got drilled right in the chin. They flagged that one at least."

Favre is referring to a hit early in the game in which New Orleans defensive lineman Bobby McCray popped the quarterback in the chin. The play drew a 15-yard unnecessary-roughness penalty and an eventual fine. Favre also was subjected to a pile-driving tackle by defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove (http://www.nfl.com/players/anthonyhargrove/profile?id=HAR144150) (another 15-yard foul and fine) and a brutal high-low takedown by McCray and defensive tackle Remi Ayodele (http://www.nfl.com/players/remiayodele/profile?id=AYO158817) (which drew, almost inexplicably, no flag).

Favre believed he broke his ankle on the high-low play. "I felt a lot of crunching in there," he said.

"I've always been friends with (former Saints safety) Darren Sharper, and he came in a couple times and popped me hard," Favre told King about his former Packers teammate.

"I remember saying, 'What THE hell you doing, Sharp?' I felt there should have been more calls against the Saints. I thought some of their guys should have been fined more."

If it's any consolation to Favre, the Saints undoubtedly will get those fines now. And that might be just the start of it.


Thank God they stopped the interview. Let Favre talk long enough, and eventually he's going to identify himself as the second gunman on the grassy knoll.

[Freak Out]

Favre, Woody and SC.....the three amigos ride again. :)

[Pugger]

Looking back its a wonder the Saints didn't try to knock out Rodgers in the first game last season. :shock:

[smuggler]

They probably did try, only to fail.

[woodbuck27]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bfyv6?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=minnesota-vikings

Hit on Vikings' Brett Favre not bounty-related, ex-Saint Anthony Hargrove says

Posted: 03/09/2012 12:01:00 AM CST
March 9, 2012 3:26 PM GMT Updated: 03/09/2012 09:26:21 AM CST



http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site569/2012/0309/20120309_082537_hargroveVikings_300.jpg (http://www.twincities.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=4285984 )
FILE - This Jan. 24, 2010, file photo shows Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre (4) being hit by New Orleans Saints linebacker Scott Fujita (55) and Anthony Hargrove during the fourth quarter of the NFC Championship NFL football game in New Orleans. (Assoicated Press: Mark Humphrey, FILE)

Former New Orleans Saints defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove said Thursday that a late hit on Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre was a mistake, but not connected with the bounty issue.

Hargrove released a statement to SI.com (http://si.com/) following up on a Sports Illustrated article that noted Hargrove's rough play and tough talk in the NFC championship game following the 2009 season.

Hargrove, who was fined $5,000 for a late hit on Favre and reportedly celebrated after Favre sustained a sprained ankle, said both the hit and his comments were mistakes but were unconnected with the bounty issue.

A recent Sports Illustrated story said Hargrove was overheard saying, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!" after Favre suffered a sprained ankle in the Vikings' overtime loss.

In Hargrove's statement posted on SI.com (http://si.com/), Hargrove said: "(I)n regards to my comments that have been talked about where I say that Favre is done, I readily agree that it sounds bad in retrospect. A lot of things look bad when we look back and realize how they sound....But did I personally want Favre INJURED? Absolutely and categorically NO!" Hargrove continued, "I have made many mistakes in my life and have paid dearly for some of them, and the late hit and the comments were both mistakes, in my opinion. But players all over the league do the same thing every Sunday, make late hits and say stupid things. But I can say with absolute certainty that neither the late hit nor the comment have anything whatsoever to do with the issue being so hotly discussed in the media."

An NFL investigation last week revealed Gregg Williams ran a bounty pool of up to $50,000 during his three seasons as Saints defensive coordinator. The money would be used to reward Saints players for knocking targeted opponents out of games.

The league is investigating whether Williams, now the St. Louis Rams' defensive coordinator, ran similar schemes at his previous stops, including Buffalo.

Saints coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis have apologized and accepted the blame for rule violations that took place in New Orleans, while vowing that it will never happen again. The league investigation found that Payton, though not directly involved in the bounty pool, was aware of it but did nothing to stop it.

[woodbuck27]

Rams expect to learn Gregg Williams’ fate this week

Posted by Mike Florio on March 11, 2012, 6:09 PM EDT
http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/williams-e1330721048204.jpg?w=231 Getty Images Peyton’s next place of employment has eclipsed, for now, the Saints’ bounty system as the NFL’s top story. That could change once Commissioner Roger Goodell metes out discipline to those involved in the cash-for-crippling conspiracy.

Jim Thomas of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that the Rams expect to learn (https://twitter.com/#!/jthom1/status/178936980317544448) the fate of defensive coordinator Gregg Williams this week. Unless Goodell plans to hand out punishment in piecemeal fashion, this means that all of the other various sanctions on folks like Saints coach Sean Payton and G.M. Mickey Loomis and the Saints organization itself will come out this week, too.

As to Williams, we’ve heard that there’s support within the league for a lifetime ban.

There’s also concern that a banishment would not survive a legal challenge under the same antitrust laws on which the players relied a year ago today, after shutting down the union and wiping out the league’s multi-employer labor exemption. In something closer to English, the NFL consists of 32 separate businesses, and if they band together and refuse to employ Gregg Williams, the NFL could be violated the antitrust laws.

That’s why the end result could be a lengthy suspension (one year or more), and a termination of employment by the Rams, for cause. (Firing Williams for cause would cut off his right to pay. His contract undoubtedly contains a provision mandating that any legal challenges be resolved via arbitration. Arbitration conducted by the league office.)
Then, if no NFL team ever hires him again, he essentially has been banned for life, without being banned for life.

As one league source explained it to PFT recently, the only flaw in this approach is that one of Williams’ friends in the coaching profession may hire him several years down the road, after this incident becomes a faded memory. Thus, the only way to truly ban Williams for life may be to indeed ban him for life.

It’s unknown at this point whether the NFL will go that far. Combining the three-year use of a bounty system in New Orleans with consistent and repeated lies to the NFL about the use of the bounty system with, quite possibly, further falsehoods about the use of bounty systems with prior teams, ending Williams’ NFL career could be the best way to ensure that no one uses bounties again — and that anyone caught breaking the rules in the future won’t deny it until backed into a corner with irrefutable proof.

The range of penalties for Payton and Loomis is far less clear. We’re told that Goodell will be careful not to make the Saints non-competitive, even though there’s a belief in some circles that Loomis deserves as harsh a punishment as Williams. As to Payton, a short suspension may be rendered meaningless, unless the league plans to monitor his whereabouts and communication habits around the clock.

For any suspension less than a year, he’ll be able at a minimum to work on game plans in which he’ll be involved after the suspension.

[woodbuck27]

Brees says Saints don’t have a “locker room full of hit men”

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 14, 2012, 12:39 PM EDT
http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/brees1-e1330719399239.jpg?w=250 Getty Images

Saints quarterback Drew Brees (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/591/drew-brees) has previously defended himself as knowing nothing (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/09/brees-addresses-bounties-in-letter-to-fans/) about the team’s system of bounties. Now Brees is also offering a defense of his teammates.

On the Dan Patrick Show, Brees said that he doesn’t think his defensive teammates are the bad guys (http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/03/14/drew-brees-discusses-bounties-contract-negotiations/) they’ve been portrayed as in some quarters.

“The whole thing is very disappointing and certainly alarming,” Brees said. “The thing that I want to make people know is I think the perception is we’ve got this locker room full of hit men. And that’s not the case at all.”

However, if Brees didn’t know anything about the bounty program then he also wouldn’t know what the case really is with his defensive teammates. And Brees acknowledges that bounties are wrong and that the NFL needs to put them out of existence.

“For a lot of us this was just as shocking as it was embarrassing,” Brees said. “There’s no place for that in our sport or any sport.”

But there was a place for it in the Saints’ locker room for three years.

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/16/no-bounty-punishment-yet/

No bounty punishment, yet

Posted by Mike Florio on March 16, 2012, 11:41 PM EDT

[Pugger]

Brees says Saints don’t have a “locker room full of hit men”

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 14, 2012, 12:39 PM EDT
http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/brees1-e1330719399239.jpg?w=250 Getty Images

Saints quarterback Drew Brees (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/591/drew-brees) has previously defended himself as knowing nothing (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/09/brees-addresses-bounties-in-letter-to-fans/) about the team’s system of bounties. Now Brees is also offering a defense of his teammates.

On the Dan Patrick Show, Brees said that he doesn’t think his defensive teammates are the bad guys (http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/03/14/drew-brees-discusses-bounties-contract-negotiations/) they’ve been portrayed as in some quarters.

“The whole thing is very disappointing and certainly alarming,” Brees said. “The thing that I want to make people know is I think the perception is we’ve got this locker room full of hit men. And that’s not the case at all.”

However, if Brees didn’t know anything about the bounty program then he also wouldn’t know what the case really is with his defensive teammates. And Brees acknowledges that bounties are wrong and that the NFL needs to put them out of existence.

“For a lot of us this was just as shocking as it was embarrassing,” Brees said. “There’s no place for that in our sport or any sport.”

But there was a place for it in the Saints’ locker room for three years.

Come on, Brees. Be real. You old DC admitted it so I ain't buying what you're trying to sell. There is no way in hell you didn't know it was going on.

[woodbuck27]

Come on, Brees. Be real. You old DC admitted it so I ain't buying what you're trying to sell. There is no way in hell you didn't know it was going on.

Yup.

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/17/jabari-greer-responds-to-bounty-allegations-with-poetry/

Jabari Greer responds to bounty allegations, with poetry

Posted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2012, 3:32 PM EDT

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/18/label-applied-to-saints-players-punishment-will-be-key-to-appeal-process/

Label applied to Saints players’ punishment will be key to appeal process

Posted by Mike Florio on March 18, 2012, 2:40 PM EDT

[Cheesehead Craig]

@AdamSchefter Sean Payton suspended one year. Mickey Loomis 8 game and $500,000 fine. Saints fined $500,000 and 2nd rd pick in 2012.

[smuggler]

Haha. RIP the Saints. I told you guys the punishments would be hilarious. Player punishments are still looming. Vilma's probably going to get an entire year judging from the Sean Payton hammerfall.

HC, Sean Payton: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the end of the league year (approx 05 March 2013)

Asst-HC, Joe Vitt: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the 6th game of the Saints 2012 season.

GM, Mickey Loomis: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the 8th game of the Saints 2012 season.

THEY WILL MISS THE SAINTS 2012 DRAFT, and cannot communicate with the Saints during their suspensions. In addition, the Saints have lost their 2nd round pick in this draft, and the 2nd rounder in the 2013 draft.

DC, Gregg Williams (Rams): Suspended indefinitely (reviewed next league year, he will never coach in the NFL again)

[sheepshead]

There's a fine line here and it was crossed. Im glad the league drew it again.

The AINTS are back!

[Freak Out]

Head coaching vacancy.

[gbgary]

a year??? WOW!!

[sheepshead]

Somehow, if these dorks had come to 1265, I think TT runs a tighter ship, but I could be wrong

[woodbuck27]

I'll gladly post this 2X:


I don't have to tell any here 'that know me' just how pleased I am to learn this.

Looks good on them. Funny thing. It seemed to me as if the whole world outsude of Viking fans wanted the Saints to drop the Minnesota Vikings in that NFC championship game. I was shocked to see how physical that game was.

Many here really enjoyed seeing Brett Favre get pummeled and OK but DAMN! When is it too much? When does it get to 'JUST aweful'? I thought it got there that day in that championship game. I spoke to others that felt the same.

It was a defenite WTF moment over and over and over again ! AWFUL.

The way they did that. That was something I'll never forget. It was BRUTAL.

We used to have organized ROCK fights back when I was a teen that involved less pain.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Well, at least Peyton won't have to rush back too soon after his knee injury and can rehab it properly

[mraynrand]

We used to have organized ROCK fights back when I was a teen that involved less pain. [/INDENT]

I think we should suspend you for one year without pay

[woodbuck27]

I think we should suspend you for one year without pay

How will I stand the loss of pay? Ohh I know.

Live in a tent.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Williams is suspended indefinately. Wow.
The Saints lose a 2nd round pick in 2012 and 2013.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7718136/sean-payton-new-orleans-saints-banned-one-year-bounties

[Smidgeon]

There's a fine line here and it was crossed. Im glad the league drew it again.

The AINTS are back!

And with Brees upset Sean Payton won't be there for a year, I imagine it makes him less likely to sign the exclusive rights tender...

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/21/fisher-gregg-williams-is-shocked-but-remorseful/

Fisher: Gregg Williams is “shocked but remorseful”

Posted by Evan Silva on March 21, 2012, 3:53 PM EDT

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/21/jeff-fisher-will-meet-the-media-at-330-p-m-et/

Jeff Fisher will meet the media at 3:30 p.m. ET

Posted by Mike Florio on March 21, 2012, 2:23 PM EDT

[pbmax]

Wow. Longer than I would have guessed. Wonder what the players will get. Does the suspensions start now or in Training Camp?

[Kiwon]

I told you guys that Czar Goodell would go nuclear, but still, wow!

This one is historic. No doubt, there's other coaches and players in the league who are guilty of similar infractions and messed their pants when they heard the news. It could have been them. Goodell's sending a message to everyone.

I wonder if Darren Sharper will 'fess up to any prior knowledge. He was so believable about the Vikings' 'Love Boat' experience. :smile:

[Joemailman]

Much of the severity here is due to the fact that the Saints lied to the NFL. They said it wasn't occurring, and then kept doing it for 2 more years.

[sheepshead]

I told you guys that Czar Goodell would go nuclear, but still, wow!

This one is historic. No doubt, there's other coaches and players in the league who are guilty of similar infractions and messed their pants when they heard the news. It could have been them. Goodell's sending a message to everyone.

I wonder if Darren Sharper will 'fess up to any prior knowledge. He was so believable about the Vikings' 'Love Boat' experience. :smile:

Sharper said it didnt happen. He said that because he wasnt in on it. Darren Sharper hasnt made a tackle much less put a lick on a guy in 15 years.

[Smidgeon]

Wow. Longer than I would have guessed. Wonder what the players will get. Does the suspensions start now or in Training Camp?

April 1.

[Joemailman]

Sharper said it didnt happen. He said that because he wasnt in on it. Darren Sharper hasnt made a tackle much less put a lick on a guy in 15 years.

They told him to "Take Favre Out" so he bought Favre dinner.

[Scott Campbell]

Brees has to be sick to his stomach. By the time they recover, he'll be on life support.

[smuggler]

They'll still have a chance. The thing is the Saints get hit with a now & later. They lose their coaching this year, which makes it pretty unlikely for them to be legit SB contenders. Then they lose their draft picks, which makes them suffer a year+ from now, as well. The two second round picks are easier to overcome than the coaching suspension, because the effect is spread over multiple seasons.

[Pugger]

Much of the severity here is due to the fact that the Saints lied to the NFL. They said it wasn't occurring, and then kept doing it for 2 more years.

Absolutely. I too think this more than the bounties themselves are what got them into all this trouble.

Williams got the harshest penalty because this isn't the first time he implemented this bounty business.

I'm all for big hits but hopefully this sort of brutality (advocating and rewarding trying to injure other players) will not be tolerated going forward.

[pbmax]

The wheels of justice are turning backwards again.

Gregg Williams might have a chance of getting back into the League since the League might need him to testify. Of course the NFL could turn its back on him after the sanctions are appealed, but then Gregg would fill the rest of the world in on how the bounty system worked elsewhere.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/23/for-player-discipline-nfl-needs-gregg-williams/

[smuggler]

Those suspensions are going to be this season, to my understanding.

[woodbuck27]

Haha. RIP the Saints. I told you guys the punishments would be hilarious. Player punishments are still looming. Vilma's probably going to get an entire year judging from the Sean Payton hammerfall.

HC, Sean Payton: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the end of the league year (approx 05 March 2013)

Asst-HC, Joe Vitt: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the 6th game of the Saints 2012 season.

GM, Mickey Loomis: Fined and suspended from 01 April 2012 until after the 8th game of the Saints 2012 season.

THEY WILL MISS THE SAINTS 2012 DRAFT, and cannot communicate with the Saints during their suspensions. In addition, the Saints have lost their 2nd round pick in this draft, and the 2nd rounder in the 2013 draft.

DC, Gregg Williams (Rams): Suspended indefinitely (reviewed next league year, he will never coach in the NFL again)

And that 'Ladies and Gentleman' is >>>

No ... 'Aprils Fools Joke'.