Hargrove is locked up

[Old School]

Help, or at least competition, has been added to the roster. Let's hope this pays off.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/144909625.html

[sheepshead]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/heymike0308/hargrove_n.jpg

[mraynrand]

Good news - that frees up the Packers to draft a WR and TE in the first two rounds.

[Fosco33]

Let's hope he doesn't get pinched for the hit on Favre in the Bounty Scandal... we need him when Neal is on the sidelines the 1st quarter of the year...

[sheepshead]

Ironic, we're 15-1 and TT blows the dust off the checkbook!

[pbmax]

Let's hope he doesn't get pinched for the hit on Favre in the Bounty Scandal... we need him when Neal is on the sidelines the 1st quarter of the year...

That is the mind blower. Its going to look as dumb as signing Marshall if he gets a six game suspension. Do forfeited game checks count against the cap?

[woodbuck27]

Ironic, we're 15-1 and TT blows the dust off the checkbook!

Ted Thompson is 'clearly' growing as OUR GM. I'm so pleased he's addressed our need for a pass rusher in Free Agency.

Wat to go Ted Thompson. Your trying.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

That is the mind blower. Its going to look as dumb as signing Marshall if he gets a six game suspension. Do forfeited game checks count against the cap?


Ted Thompson is well aware of this concern. Ted Thompson considerd it when he made this signing.

[MadScientist]

Ironic, we're 15-1 and TT blows the dust off the checkbook!
It wasn't 15-1 that did it, it was 15-2 that did it. The Packers are a really good enough team that measured spending on FA's could get them to another title. This is a really logical time to get the missing pieces, it's just that TT's past aversion to FA's has colored our view of him.

[MadScientist]

Ted Thompson is well aware of this concern. Ted Thompson considered it when he made this signing.
Yes TT considered this, but unless Hargrove won't be suspended, or at least won't have the suspension coincide with Neal's, it is a concern for us. Hopefully details will come out soon to make things clear for us.

Leading the league in suspended DL's isn't all that great of a statistic.

[sharpe1027]

That is the mind blower. Its going to look as dumb as signing Marshall if he gets a six game suspension. Do forfeited game checks count against the cap?

I don't think so so long as the suspension is issued by the league (as opposed to a team issuing the suspension).

[sheepshead]

I actually think we are seeing that TT is good for his word. He always claims he is in free agent discussions every year. It could be more guys are fitting HIS criteria this year. Financial, character, role, etc.

[wist43]

TT signs a bartender, and you guys act like he just signed Peyton Manning, Mario Williams, and Kameron Wimbley ;)

Hargrove is just a body... same as the stack of junk we already have piled up at the position.

[sharpe1027]

TT signs a bartender, and you guys act like he just signed Peyton Manning, Mario Williams, and Kameron Wimbley ;)

Hargrove is just a body... same as the stack of junk we already have piled up at the position.

You lost me once I realized you were saying that Jarius Wynn is just as good as Hargrove. ;)

[Freak Out]

Why would the NFL suspend him now after they had already fined him for the hits?

[Cleft Crusty]

TT signs a bartender, and you guys act like he just signed Peyton Manning, Mario Williams, and Kameron Wimbley ;)

Hargrove is just a body... same as the stack of junk we already have piled up at the position.


But if he plays to 80% of ability, that's better than what the Packers have seen from a lot of guys on the roster - maybe every DL with the exception of Raji and Pickett at this point. It's very likely an upgrade; how much is uncertain.

[pbmax]

Why would the NFL suspend him now after they had already fined him for the hits?

For participation in the bounty program itself, not just the hits/flags in the game.

As for TT, his aversion to FA has been overstated as Sheep pointed out. With a flat cap and a troubled history, Hargrove was right up the value alley. The problem arises when you count on him being available on game days and the League tells you he will not. Monetary savings or no, you just lost an asset and are back to square 1. I'd love to know how much the Packers were able to ascertain before signing him or if they simply asked him about it.

[sharpe1027]

I wonder if they have protections built into his contract that will lessen the risk to the Packers if he is suspended. If the league moves quickly, they might know early enough to plan for his absence.

[ND72]

I like the signing.

[woodbuck27]

Yes TT considered this, but unless Hargrove won't be suspended, or at least won't have the suspension coincide with Neal's, it is a concern for us. Hopefully details will come out soon to make things clear for us.

Leading the league in suspended DL's isn't all that great of a statistic.

Hahaaha...NO ! (-:

[wist43]

I wonder if they have protections built into his contract that will lessen the risk to the Packers if he is suspended. If the league moves quickly, they might know early enough to plan for his absence.

I can't imagine he signed for much more than the minimum... hard to be creative with a bottom end contract.

Really, signing Anthony Hargrove is a big "so what".

[sheepshead]

TT signs a bartender, and you guys act like he just signed Peyton Manning, Mario Williams, and Kameron Wimbley ;)

Hargrove is just a body... same as the stack of junk we already have piled up at the position.


I must be blocked from all revelry I dont see it.

[sharpe1027]

I can't imagine he signed for much more than the minimum... hard to be creative with a bottom end contract.

Really, signing Anthony Hargrove is a big "so what".

I think he's better than anything behind Pickett and Raji. But no, he's not going to turn around the defense by himself. They really didn't have the room to get a top flight guy, so I hope nobody was holding their breath for Mario Williams.

[pbmax]

I think we know now that when McCarthy said they needed more competition on the defensive side of the roster, he was at least thinking about Wynn, Wilson and Green.

[Guiness]

Didn't know the Pack was even considering him! I didn't see any mention of it.

[Upnorth]

Big (and surprised) fan of this signing. One last note, our o is good enough that having him suspended the first 2 - 6 games will not keep us out of the playoffs. Its the home stretch we need him for.

He is as good or better than Jenkins obaloo 39.

[woodbuck27]

Didn't know the Pack was even considering him! I didn't see any mention of it.

RE: Tweets that he would likely soon be a Packer.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2816/anthony-hargrove

and more comments on his becoming 'a Packer'.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/56401/packers-and-anthony-hargrove-a-unique-fit

[wist43]

Just for you guys though... I will break into eternally optimistic mode - woo!!! hoo!!!

We signed a FA :)

[Fritz]

If you look at the number of defensive linemen kept last year - what, six? - and you consider that three of them are really below average (Wynn, Wilson, and Green, despite his heroics of the year before) - then you see that half the players at a given position group are poor. That's probably the least talented position group on the team.

Thus Hargrove - if he's available - appears to upgrade the group. Sure sounds like he's better than the three mentioned above.

Wist knows Mario Williams, and he's no Mario Williams, but he's no CJ Wilson, either.

[sharpe1027]

Just for you guys though... I will break into eternally optimistic mode - woo!!! hoo!!!

We signed a FA :)

That's the spirit! Hopefully it is a value pickup on the cheap. Worst case is probably that he gets cut, suspended or both. Hopefully, even that would barely cost the Packers anything.

[wist43]

If you look at the number of defensive linemen kept last year - what, six? - and you consider that three of them are really below average (Wynn, Wilson, and Green, despite his heroics of the year before) - then you see that half the players at a given position group are poor. That's probably the least talented position group on the team.

Thus Hargrove - if he's available - appears to upgrade the group. Sure sounds like he's better than the three mentioned above.

Wist knows Mario Williams, and he's no Mario Williams, but he's no CJ Wilson, either.

I rate Hargrove about the same as Wilson, Wynn, and Green.

Combine our dismal DL, with a very pedestrian LB'ing corp, and you have the 32nd ranked defense in a 32 team league.

Ted's dart hit the bulls eye when he drafted Raji and Matthews, but has all but whiffed on every other front seven player he has brought in... poor drafting eventually catches up to anyone, even if your mantra is "draft, draft, draft, develop, develop, develop".

[sharpe1027]

I rate Hargrove about the same as Wilson, Wynn, and Green.


Maybe if you combine the results from all three. Maybe. Hargrove already has 19 sacks in his career.

Career:
CJ Wilson: 1
Wynn: 4
Green: 1
Total: 6

The combination of Wilson, Wynn, and Green might never reach 19 sacks combined for their entire careers.

[HarveyWallbangers]

There you go, wist. We aren't the only optimistic ones.
:)

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth


We've reached the end of the third week in NFL free agency, a time when teams typically shift their gaze toward role players who project as limited contributors for the upcoming season. I think the Green Bay Packers' acquisition of defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove has the potential to exceed those parameters.

...

I won't try to predict what's in store for the Packers and Hargrove, but most March 29 signings don't have the kind of potential that this one brings. Let's see where this goes.

[Joemailman]

Ted Thompson is 'clearly' growing as OUR GM. I'm so pleased he's addressed our need for a pass rusher in Free Agency.

Wat to go Ted Thompson. Your trying.

GO PACK GO !




You mean he built a Super Bowl championship team without even trying? Dude is more awesome than I thought.

[KYPack]

TT has played in the street FA game from time to time.

He one hard and fast rule.

A street FA has to SHINE to get a roster spot.

TT doesn't want to take practice reps from a kid.

A vet FA must be better by a signigicant margin or the GBP lets him go.

[pbmax]

I rate Hargrove about the same as Wilson, Wynn, and Green.

Combine our dismal DL, with a very pedestrian LB'ing corp, and you have the 32nd ranked defense in a 32 team league.

Ted's dart hit the bulls eye when he drafted Raji and Matthews, but has all but whiffed on every other front seven player he has brought in... poor drafting eventually catches up to anyone, even if your mantra is "draft, draft, draft, develop, develop, develop".

C'mon. So your case is that part timers Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Chillar and Nick Barnett are the difference between the second best and worst defense in the league?

Not to mention that the team yielded the 19th most points with the league's most explosive offense. So it is hardly the worst defense in football. Only the NFL's PR arm think yardage is the best way to measure the effectiveness of a unit.

[wist43]

C'mon. So your case is that part timers Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Chillar and Nick Barnett are the difference between the second best and worst defense in the league?

Not to mention that the team yielded the 19th most points with the league's most explosive offense. So it is hardly the worst defense in football. Only the NFL's PR arm think yardage is the best way to measure the effectiveness of a unit.

I don't think yards are the best measure of a defense - it's all about pressure, sacks, and turnovers... and yes, Jenkins was that important, b/c he at least presented a pass rush threat from the side opposite Matthews.

Without that threat on the other side I think the results speak for themselves - the Packers couldn't generate any pass rush at all, and the secondary was savaged by QB's who were makin' babies and doin' their taxes while relaxing in the pocket.

TT thought Neal would fill Jenkins spikes - wrong; he thought Wilson and/or Wynn would develop - wrong; and I can't begin to fathom what he was thinking about the LB'ing corp - whatever it was/is, it's wrong.

We'll see after the draft... hopefully TT will realize his defense is completely dead, and will take steps to shore it up, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Deputy Nutz]

Well, I tell ya what, if Thompson didn't pick up a free agent, he had too many holes on defense to fill through the draft alone. No chance in getting a starting caliber defensive end, an starting caliber outside linebacker, and a starting caliber free safety in this years draft. Not to mention the fact that even after drafting two offensive tackles in the first rounds of the last two drafts the Packers still have personell problems at left tackle.

I am not saying that Thompson went on tilt, but what I am saying is this move needed to be made to secure any hope for the Packers to go deep into the 2012 playoffs. Hargrove isn't special, or all that dynamic, but he is going to be a solid starter on the end and that is better than what they had. His value will be in his ability to hold the point on the edge, and free up the OLb and MLb on that side.

I give credit to Thompson for doing what he is supposed to do when a team has a gapping hole. filling it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wilson, Neal, and Wynn haven't worked out yet. On the other hand, guys like T.J. Lang, Josh Sitton, Jordy Nelson, James Jones, Jermichael Finley, Tramon Williams, and Desmond Bishop have. It ain't always perfect, but if you are good at drafting and developing, it's a better modus operandi than going hog wild after other team's overpriced UFAs. So far, TT has missed on his DE prospects. Maybe that's why he's looking at UFAs at that position now.

Let's be real. We weren't going to get Mario Williams. He likely would not have wanted to play in a 3-4 again, and he wasn't going to help at RDE anyways.

Here are the other top rated UFA DEs:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82776cb3/article/positionbyposition-look-at-nfls-top-free-agents-in-2012


Paul Soliai: The Dolphins nose tackle is a solid player who could get snapped up quickly by a team like Kansas City, which has cap space to burn and could use a big plugger like Soliai.

Red Bryant: A combo end-tackle, Bryant is a huge part of a nice defensive front in Seattle. He is a very good player few people recognize.

John Abraham: Abraham will be 34 when the season starts and he's primarily a situational pass rusher, but he's a good one. The Falcons will see what the market dictates then come at him if the price isn't too high. Abraham's salary hopes could limit his options.

Jason Jones: The Titans defensive end/tackle will only be 26 when the season starts, and quickly he's developed into a solid player who could earn a surprisingly nice payday on the open market.

Any of them float your boat? Probably not. You'd be saying the same things about them if we signed one of those guys that you are saying about Hargrove. And some of those guys got contracts that would be big enough to eat into the pot that guys like Rodgers, Matthews, Raji, and Jennings will be eating out of.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That was meant to followup Wist's post, but Nutz got into between us. :)

[sharpe1027]

That was meant to followup Wist's post, but Nutz got into between us. :)

Sounds a little too personal for me.

[Freak Out]

That was meant to followup Wist's post, but Nutz got into between us. :)

Nothing like a Nutz sandwich for lunch.

[Old School]

I think TT is positioning himself to trade up below 20 to draft an impact player. By building some depth in the FA market, a couple of his 12 draft picks will be expendable. Plus the pedestrian group at DL and ROLB must recognize they are in a fight for their lives. If even one of them is made to take his play up a notch or two, these moves by TT would pay a big dividend.

[pbmax]

Well, I tell ya what, if Thompson didn't pick up a free agent, he had too many holes on defense to fill through the draft alone. No chance in getting a starting caliber defensive end, an starting caliber outside linebacker, and a starting caliber free safety in this years draft. Not to mention the fact that even after drafting two offensive tackles in the first rounds of the last two drafts the Packers still have personell problems at left tackle.

I am not saying that Thompson went on tilt, but what I am saying is this move needed to be made to secure any hope for the Packers to go deep into the 2012 playoffs. Hargrove isn't special, or all that dynamic, but he is going to be a solid starter on the end and that is better than what they had. His value will be in his ability to hold the point on the edge, and free up the OLb and MLb on that side.

I give credit to Thompson for doing what he is supposed to do when a team has a gapping hole. filling it.

I could be wrong but I don't see Hargrove starting at DE in base. Every down of nickel pass rush? Yes. I confess I have only seen him in a couple games (all in 2009 with the Saints) but my vague impression is that he is a less robust Jenkins with perhaps more speed (at least he did early in career). He seems to be 4-3 DE or 3 tech DT. Which makes him a good match for nickel pass rush.

I could be wrong, he told Seifert he was ready to play run downs head up and by the book, but McGinn thinks he would be out of place full time at 5 tech as well.

I would hope they can conjure a better preformance in base at DE with someone else and keep Hargrove fresh for pass rush exclusively or to rotate in as relief.

[pbmax]

I don't think yards are the best measure of a defense - it's all about pressure, sacks, and turnovers... and yes, Jenkins was that important, b/c he at least presented a pass rush threat from the side opposite Matthews.

Without that threat on the other side I think the results speak for themselves - the Packers couldn't generate any pass rush at all, and the secondary was savaged by QB's who were makin' babies and doin' their taxes while relaxing in the pocket.

TT thought Neal would fill Jenkins spikes - wrong; he thought Wilson and/or Wynn would develop - wrong; and I can't begin to fathom what he was thinking about the LB'ing corp - whatever it was/is, it's wrong.

We'll see after the draft... hopefully TT will realize his defense is completely dead, and will take steps to shore it up, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think the best defenses yield the fewest points per possession and the Packers were just under dead average, despite pitiful pass D and pass rush. Their successes mainly came from turnovers. A modicum of improvement in the rush and the DBs and its back into the top ten if:

Collins or someone capable can be found for safety. And Raji plays the run as well as he did in the Giants game (or they move Pickett back there).

Jenkins loss was felt, but he wasn't the entire difference between the 19th ranked defense and the 2nd.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I could be wrong but I don't see Hargrove starting at DE in base. Every down of nickel pass rush? Yes. I confess I have only seen him in a couple games (all in 2009 with the Saints) but my vague impression is that he is a less robust Jenkins with perhaps more speed (at least he did early in career). He seems to be 4-3 DE or 3 tech DT. Which makes him a good match for nickel pass rush.

I could be wrong, he told Seifert he was ready to play run downs head up and by the book, but McGinn thinks he would be out of place full time at 5 tech as well.

I would hope they can conjure a better preformance in base at DE with someone else and keep Hargrove fresh for pass rush exclusively or to rotate in as relief.

I think you're right. From the GBPG:


Listed at 6-foot-3 and 272 pounds, Hargrove could play end in the 3-4 or as an inside rusher in subpackages. A scout for an AFC team said last week he could envision Hargrove as an effective inside rusher in the Packers’ nickel package, a role Cullen Jenkins played in 2010 before he signed with the Philadelphia Eagles.

Were the DEs bad on run defense? For the life of me, thinking back to last year, I can't remember if they were a big weakness in run defense. I'm just wondering if Wilson or Wynn could be alright on run downs and then bring Hargrove in the nickel. I'm still holding out hope that Wilson can develop into a decent player. Sometimes, it takes that third year for the lightbulb to go off. Not counting on Wynn for much.

[Lurker64]

Hargrove is like a vastly improved Jarius Wynn. It's not great, but it's something. We had to play Wynn a lot last year, now we can play a guy who's a lot better than Wynn but plays similarly.



Were the DEs bad on run defense? For the life of me, thinking back to last year, I can't remember if they were a big weakness in run defense. I'm just wondering if Wilson or Wynn could be alright on run downs and then bring Hargrove in the nickel. I'm still holding out hope that Wilson can develop into a decent player. Sometimes, it takes that third year for the lightbulb to go off. Not counting on Wynn for much.

Pretty much everybody on the DL except Pickett was horrible on rush D last season.

[pbmax]

Were the DEs bad on run defense? For the life of me, thinking back to last year, I can't remember if they were a big weakness in run defense. I'm just wondering if Wilson or Wynn could be alright on run downs and then bring Hargrove in the nickel. I'm still holding out hope that Wilson can develop into a decent player. Sometimes, it takes that third year for the lightbulb to go off. Not counting on Wynn for much.

Nutz hit on a couple of good examples (esp. versus KC but in other late season games as well) where the RDE was so easily blocked by a single man that the only thing between the RB and both outside gaps was Walden. And he was so easily sucked in and turned, that it left the whole sideline open for the RB.

The real troubling part was that neither Bishop nor Hawk could get outside. Nutz thought the DE getting blasted was hurting them here as someone got a free shot at them. I think this would either need to be a center/guard or a FB. So its possible Raji wasn't helping either. He was getting sideways a ton in the run game until the Giants game, when he was one of the few on D to play well.

If Raji plays like that next year, hello All-Pro.

[gbgary]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/heymike0308/hargrove_n.jpg

doin' the bird!


vodpod.com/watch/511656-morris-day-the-time-the-bird

[Bretsky]

I rate Hargrove about the same as Wilson, Wynn, and Green.

Combine our dismal DL, with a very pedestrian LB'ing corp, and you have the 32nd ranked defense in a 32 team league.

Ted's dart hit the bulls eye when he drafted Raji and Matthews, but has all but whiffed on every other front seven player he has brought in... poor drafting eventually catches up to anyone, even if your mantra is "draft, draft, draft, develop, develop, develop".



My note to Wist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NwW3GCn7k



COME ON MAN


When you're alternating to dating the two ugliest girls in the school, updating to an average one is an improrvement.

Wynn and Wilson played like Gas Station Attendants last year; we found Roell Preston there and he played at a much higher level years ago. COME ON MAN

At his worst, Hargrove is as good as these chumps

COME ON MAN !!!

[wist43]

My note to Wist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NwW3GCn7k



COME ON MAN


When you're alternating to dating the two ugliest girls in the school, updating to an average one is an improrvement.

Wynn and Wilson played like Gas Station Attendants last year; we found Roell Preston there and he played at a much higher level years ago. COME ON MAN

At his worst, Hargrove is as good as these chumps

COME ON MAN !!!

Hargrove is a body... and when it comes to the defensive line we certainly need more bodies. I would rather have had Langford; or perhaps Wimbley vs. Saturday and Hargrove.

Pass rushers cost money; and coming out of college, big-time pass rush prospects are going to cost you draft picks. Now I'll grant you that TT's hands are tied somewhat with the cap, so improving our pass rush thru FA is understandably less likely. My fear however, is that TT will not be agressive in moving around in the draft to get the guys he likes to shore up the front seven.

Rather, Ted is just as likely to sit at his picks and take the BPA on his board, regardless of position; while a front seven player that he valued worthy of picking that high is plucked off the board 5 picks earlier. I'm sure TT is going to come out of the draft with at least 1 front seven player in the first 3 picks; but if that is all he does in the offseason, in terms shoring up the front seven, then I would fully expect next season to be a repeat of 2011 - only without the 15 wins.

Someone mentioned Bishop... he's a decent player, but he's not a difference maker; and of course there is Matthews, Raji, and Pickett. Adding Hargrove and 1 relatively high pick to that mix simply isn't going to be enough to make much of difference. It will help of course, but our front seven - which by my way of thinking is really a group of about 13-14 guys - out of which we would then have 5 decent players??

That's a long row to hoe.

[Fritz]

"When you're alternating to dating the two ugliest girls in the school, updating to an average one is an improrvement."

And when you get to middle age, and you look at a group of high school girls, even the average-looking one is still an 18 year old chick...

If middle-aged men were put into 17 or 18 year old boys' bodies, the average-looking girls in school would be very, very popular.

I am going to try to pretend that the above comments are a complex analogy to the Hargrove signing.

[Pugger]

Maybe if you combine the results from all three. Maybe. Hargrove already has 19 sacks in his career.

Career:
CJ Wilson: 1
Wynn: 4
Green: 1
Total: 6

The combination of Wilson, Wynn, and Green might never reach 19 sacks combined for their entire careers.

This.

[Pugger]

Nothing like a Nutz sandwich for lunch.

:lol:

[Patler]

Maybe if you combine the results from all three. Maybe. Hargrove already has 19 sacks in his career.

Career:
CJ Wilson: 1
Wynn: 4
Green: 1
Total: 6

The combination of Wilson, Wynn, and Green might never reach 19 sacks combined for their entire careers.

You can throw Neal and Pickett into that as well. Wilson, Wynn, Green, Neal and Pickett have played 314 games, and have a combined 17 sacks. with Pickett having 9.5 of them in 162 games. Hargrove has played 102 games, and he has 19.5 sacks.

The "just a guy" category covers a huge range of NFL players. Hargrove may be "just a guy", but as a pass rusher he is a top level "just a guy" and four of the five guys mentioned above are at the bottom level as pass rushers; so, while Hargrove is by no means an elite player in any sense, for what ailed the Packers last year he might still be a significant upgrade. Hargrove is a lot closer to being able to do what Jenkins did than anyone else currently on the roster.

It would be fantastic if TT could identify the single most significant weakness on the team, and land a player with all-pro ability to perform it. But in reality, that doesn't happen very often. On the other hand, if you can step up a couple notches with 2, 3 or 4 players the combined effect can be enough to make a difference.

[woodbuck27]

Big (and surprised) fan of this signing. One last note, our o is good enough that having him suspended the first 2 - 6 games will not keep us out of the playoffs. Its the home stretch we need him for.

He is as good or better than Jenkins obaloo 39.

** http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/56401/packers-and-anthony-hargrove-a-unique-fit



"I won't try to predict what's in store for the Packers and Hargrove, but most March 29 signings don't have the kind of potential that this one brings. Let's see where this goes." Fr. **

[RashanGary]

Patler,

Throw Howard Green Mike Neal in that mix, and every one of our lineman combined (outside of Raji) has less career sacks than Hargrove.


Our best DL pass rusher (BY FAR) is BJ Raji, and he's on pace to have similar career sack numbers to Anthony Hargrove.


To Wist's credit, our pass rush was pathetic. On the flip side, he's so dead set on his "sky is falling" campaign, he's missed the boat here. We got better. Cullen Jenkins is no playmaker. Hargrove is a similar player. He's the 3rd guy on our front 7 who can get there. He doesn't have to be the best in the league to make us better. He has to be better than what we have, and that he is.

[woodbuck27]

Just for you guys though... I will break into eternally optimistic mode - woo!!! hoo!!!

We signed a FA :)

(-: X 10 TT signed THREE (3) Free Agents.

Phenomenol achievements can happen. I'd like to see the MATH on how Ted Thompson managed it considering our 'CAP' space.

When it was reported that we were about $5.4 M$ under the CAP and we got to about $7 M$ adding the $1.6 M$ from the Dallas and Washington CAP Violatation Issue.

Did the $5.4 M$ Figure include the exclusion of or 'off the books numbers on Bush, Wells and Grant etc. ??

Can any member post the facts RE: this question?

Thanks.

[woodbuck27]

Hargrove is a body... and when it comes to the defensive line we certainly need more bodies. I would rather have had Langford; or perhaps Wimbley vs. Saturday and Hargrove.

Pass rushers cost money; and coming out of college, big-time pass rush prospects are going to cost you draft picks. Now I'll grant you that TT's hands are tied somewhat with the cap, so improving our pass rush thru FA is understandably less likely. My fear however, is that TT will not be agressive in moving around in the draft to get the guys he likes to shore up the front seven.

Rather, Ted is just as likely to sit at his picks and take the BPA on his board, regardless of position; while a front seven player that he valued worthy of picking that high is plucked off the board 5 picks earlier. I'm sure TT is going to come out of the draft with at least 1 front seven player in the first 3 picks; but if that is all he does in the offseason, in terms shoring up the front seven, then I would fully expect next season to be a repeat of 2011 - only without the 15 wins.

Someone mentioned Bishop... he's a decent player, but he's not a difference maker; and of course there is Matthews, Raji, and Pickett. Adding Hargrove and 1 relatively high pick to that mix simply isn't going to be enough to make much of difference. It will help of course, but our front seven - which by my way of thinking is really a group of about 13-14 guys - out of which we would then have 5 decent players??

That's a long row to hoe.

You defend your position very well.

[sheepshead]

Peter King tweeted last night when asked who is favorites are for next year in the NFL. He said its too early to say but that Dom Capers will have a heck of a comeback year. For what it's worth.

[wootah]

Peter King tweeted last night when asked who is favorites are for next year in the NFL. He said its too early to say but that Dom Capers will have a heck of a comeback year. For what it's worth.

We're doomed.

[woodbuck27]

Peter King tweeted last night when asked who is favorites are for next year in the NFL. He said its too early to say but that Dom Capers will have a heck of a comeback year. For what it's worth.

Good Day sheepshead .

A Dom Capers comeback DC of the year award?? mmmm A tad unrealistic but we can hope for 'a miracle'. (-:

If TT gives him some more and we get LUCKY with Nick Collins and Charles Woodson doesn't show real decline and Pickett holds up and we don't suffer too much adversity in terms of defensive player serious injury AND now overcome a Peter King PREDICTION ...Yikes !!! Scary !!!:

YOU might be right.

[Rutnstrut]

So much for TT only signing good character "Packer people", Hargrove is as thug as they come. Let's hope he channels his thugness into solid,clean defensive play.

[woodbuck27]

So much for TT only signing good character "Packer people", Hargrove is as thug as they come. Let's hope he channels his thugness into solid,clean defensive play.


Yea you make a point there man. That BS from A. Hargrove and (maybe?) it's just his lips flappin'; but that whole thing came rushin' in on me when I was 'waking up today' to 'the reality' of this signing. I won't go there or 'open' a real can of worms.


OK yea ..right.....Way to go...ahhh ahhh ..... well ........... way. Good grief.

[Guiness]

C'mon. So your case is that part timers Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Chillar and Nick Barnett are the difference between the second best and worst defense in the league?

I'm surprised you put Jenkins in that list. I think his loss was significantly felt. The Pack gambled on Neale to fill the void, and that certainly didn't happen.

Also not sure how you could call Barnett a part timer? He was the most ably replaced of the three, but was a significant part of the defense when here. Do you really feel the team would not have been better with him on it? Don't confuse that with thinking he should not have been traded - it was the right decision, for a couple of reasons, but the loss was still felt.



Not to mention that the team yielded the 19th most points with the league's most explosive offense. So it is hardly the worst defense in football. Only the NFL's PR arm think yardage is the best way to measure the effectiveness of a unit.

How does the number of points yielded relate to the offense's performance? Do you mean because team's playing from behind throw more and score more points? I've never really subscribed to that thought process - it makes them more one-dimensional, and more vulnerable.

[Patler]

You can throw Neal and Pickett into that as well. Wilson, Wynn, Green, Neal and Pickett have played 314 games, and have a combined 17 sacks. with Pickett having 9.5 of them in 162 games. Hargrove has played 102 games, and he has 19.5 sacks.



Patler,

Throw Howard Green Mike Neal in that mix, and every one of our lineman combined (outside of Raji) has less career sacks than Hargrove.

Isn't that what I wrote?

[Guiness]

The real troubling part was that neither Bishop nor Hawk could get outside. Nutz thought the DE getting blasted was hurting them here as someone got a free shot at them

This is where I think Barnett was missed. He was much more of a sideline to sideline player. Nutz could be right though, the breakdowns by the DL might have neutralized him just as well, shedding blocks was never his strong suit.

I'm sure Wist will agree.

[RashanGary]

Isn't that what I wrote?

Aw, shit, I skimmed.

Yeah, Hargrove is definitely an upgrade, and a pretty big one if sacks have anything to do with pass rush.

[Patler]

This is where I think Barnett was missed. He was much more of a sideline to sideline player. Nutz could be right though, the breakdowns by the DL might have neutralized him just as well, shedding blocks was never his strong suit.

I'm sure Wist will agree.

Barnett being gone doesn't explain the drop-off from 2010 to 2011. Barnett only played 4 games in 2010.

[Deputy Nutz]

So Hargrove isn't even going to be a full time starter because of his lack of bulk. Great that you can get a pass rusher on the line, but you need a player that can get after the QB on non-passing downs, like when a team throws out the play book and passes on 1st down, or 2nd and 5.

I am not pissing my pants out of excitement for Packer fans with this pick up, but it was still a signing that TT needed to make, and allows the Packers to go a couple different directions in the draft, but honestly this still doesn't mean that the Packers don'thave needs they need to fill on draft day.

[RashanGary]

So Hargrove isn't even going to be a full time starter because of his lack of bulk. Great that you can get a pass rusher on the line, but you need a player that can get after the QB on non-passing downs, like when a team throws out the play book and passes on 1st down, or 2nd and 5.

I am not pissing my pants out of excitement for Packer fans with this pick up, but it was still a signing that TT needed to make, and allows the Packers to go a couple different directions in the draft, but honestly this still doesn't mean that the Packers don'thave needs they need to fill on draft day.

I'm not a big stat digger, but my recollection is the Packers were atrocious on 3rd down last year. This certainly helps us get off the field on 3rd down. That could be a pretty big help in itself.

Certainly, it's not like adding a probowl caliber 5-tech, but it if you were to compare it to another situational position (say, 3rd CB) it would be like replacing Jarrett Bush (assuming he was your number 3, and we know what that looks like when he is) with a solid veteran nickle back.

I haven't seen one person here jumping with joy, but the general consensus seems that we replaced a glaring (nickle) hole with a player who belongs on the field.

Get off the field one more time in the Giants game, and we might be talking 3-pete right now. The Packers are close and this brings us closer.

[Patler]

So Hargrove isn't even going to be a full time starter because of his lack of bulk. Great that you can get a pass rusher on the line, but you need a player that can get after the QB on non-passing downs, like when a team throws out the play book and passes on 1st down, or 2nd and 5.

I am not pissing my pants out of excitement for Packer fans with this pick up, but it was still a signing that TT needed to make, and allows the Packers to go a couple different directions in the draft, but honestly this still doesn't mean that the Packers don'thave needs they need to fill on draft day.

Hargrove claims he actually plays at about 290, not the 272 or whatever it is that the NFL lists him at.

There was no way that the Packers were going to sign a be-all, end-all remedy to their pass rush problems of last year, but incremental improvements can make a lot of difference. Tollefson is supposed to be in GB right now. If they can sign him as well, Hargrove + Tollefson is a heck of a lot better than Wison and Wynn for pass-rush effectiveness. Add one potential pickup at OLB in the early rounds of the draft, and the cumulative upgrade can be significant.

MM has said that he has talked to Capers about the need to play more 3-4 than the exotic nickel and dime variations they have used recently. Hargrove-Raji-Tollefson in passing situations would be a big step up from Wynn-Raji-Wilson.

Muir is kind of a wild card, too. I'm not sure he will even make the final roster in GB, but for a couple years he was an effective player for the Colts. Not sure what happened last year. Maybe he was a brief flash in the pan as a player. But there is the possibility of him being an upgrade from Green. He could add further to the cumulative effect.

It would be nice to add another stud pass rusher. But it might be just as effective putting three on the field who are at least a couple steps up from the ones they used last year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Hargrove claims he actually plays at about 290, not the 272 or whatever it is that the NFL lists him at.

There was no way that the Packers were going to sign a be-all, end-all remedy to their pass rush problems of last year, but incremental improvements can make a lot of difference. Tollefson is supposed to be in GB right now. If they can sign him as well, Hargrove + Tollefson is a heck of a lot better than Wison and Wynn for pass-rush effectiveness. Add one potential pickup at OLB in the early rounds of the draft, and the cumulative upgrade can be significant.

MM has said that he has talked to Capers about the need to play more 3-4 than the exotic nickel and dime variations they have used recently. Hargrove-Raji-Tollefson in passing situations would be a big step up from Wynn-Raji-Wilson.

Muir is kind of a wild card, too. I'm not sure he will even make the final roster in GB, but for a couple years he was an effective player for the Colts. Not sure what happened last year. Maybe he was a brief flash in the pan as a player. But there is the possibility of him being an upgrade from Green. He could add further to the cumulative effect.

It would be nice to add another stud pass rusher. But it might be just as effective putting three on the field who are at least a couple steps up from the ones they used last year.

Excellent points. Hell, it's not like the pass rush could be any worse than last year. The Pack get some players that can get them 10-12 more sacks than last year's crew and some more hurries and pressures and they'll be back to 2010 form.

[sheepshead]

Good Day sheepshead .

A Dom Capers comeback DC of the year award?? mmmm A tad unrealistic but we can hope for 'a miracle'. (-:

If TT gives him some more and we get LUCKY with Nick Collins and Charles Woodson doesn't show real decline and Pickett holds up and we don't suffer too much adversity in terms of defensive player serious injury AND now overcome a Peter King PREDICTION ...Yikes !!! Scary !!!:

YOU might be right.

Hells Bells he cant get any worse can he?

[sharpe1027]

I am not pissing my pants out of excitement for Packer fans with this pick up, but it was still a signing that TT needed to make, and allows the Packers to go a couple different directions in the draft, but honestly this still doesn't mean that the Packers don'thave needs they need to fill on draft day.

Yep. I think most people would agree with this.

[pbmax]

I'm surprised you put Jenkins in that list. I think his loss was significantly felt. The Pack gambled on Neale to fill the void, and that certainly didn't happen.

Also not sure how you could call Barnett a part timer? He was the most ably replaced of the three, but was a significant part of the defense when here. Do you really feel the team would not have been better with him on it? Don't confuse that with thinking he should not have been traded - it was the right decision, for a couple of reasons, but the loss was still felt.

How does the number of points yielded relate to the offense's performance? Do you mean because team's playing from behind throw more and score more points? I've never really subscribed to that thought process - it makes them more one-dimensional, and more vulnerable.

I think Jenkins is severely overrated if he is credited with the difference between the 2nd ranked defense and 32nd ranked D. And that was the implication of the wist post I was responding to. Jenkins indeed is more important than either Barnett or Chillar. Despite being part time, Jenkins did play well enough to notch 7 sacks in 11 games in 2010.

Barnett I labeled part time because of his injury in 2010 and the fact that his replacement was still on the roster in 2011.

As for points yielded and the offense, the total number of points scored or yielded is affected by opportunity. The Packers offense scored a lot and it scored very quickly. That gives the opposition a large number of possessions. The more possessions, the greater the number of points will be scored.

As for one dimensional offenses, I am not so sure that has as much impact today as it once did, when the run pass ratio was normally heavier on the run. Passing a lot for today's offenses isn't out of the norm. Even so, a one dimensional offense stands a greater chance to score points if it throws more with reasonable efficiency (easy to accomplish vs Pack D in 2011) and overall, a pass first approach will yield more points for good offenses and less points for bad offenses. Its a high variable strategy and the Packers faced enough good offenses in 2011 that were able to make them pay.

This is not to argue that the D was secretly good. Its was bad and seriously dropped off from 2010. But faults went well beyond Jenkins and the fixes are not dramatic. If teh Packers find an interior pass rusher it will definitely help, but if they do not fix other areas (DB, run D) the improvement will not be back to 2010 levels.

[Smidgeon]

I think Jenkins is severely overrated if he is credited with the difference between the 2nd ranked defense and 32nd ranked D. And that was the implication of the wist post I was responding to. Jenkins indeed is more important than either Barnett or Chillar. Despite being part time, Jenkins did play well enough to notch 7 sacks in 11 games in 2010.

Barnett I labeled part time because of his injury in 2010 and the fact that his replacement was still on the roster in 2011.

As for points yielded and the offense, the total number of points scored or yielded is affected by opportunity. The Packers offense scored a lot and it scored very quickly. That the opposition a large number of possessions. The more possessions, the greater the number of points will be scored.

As for one dimensional offenses, I am not so sure that has as much impact today as it once did, when the run pass ratio was normally heavier on the run. Passing a lot for today's offenses isn't out of the norm. Even so, a one dimensional offense stands a greater chance to score points if it throws more with reasonable efficiency (easy to accomplish vs Pack D in 2011) and overall, a pass first approach will yield more points for good offenses and less points for bad offenses. Its a high variable strategy and the Packers faced enough good offenses in 2011 that were able to make them pay.

This is not to argue that the D was secretly good. Its was bad and seriously dropped off from 2010. But faults went well beyond Jenkins and the fixes are not dramatic. If teh Packers find an interior pass rusher it will definitely help, but if they do not fix other areas (DB, run D) the improvement will not be back to 2010 levels.

McCarthy said at some point this week (I think when speaking at the owner's meetings) that his review of film with Capers showed that other teams played them aggressively because of the Packers offense. They felt they had to start aggressive and play that way all the way through just for a chance to keep up. That also contributes in part.

[pbmax]

McCarthy said at some point this week (I think when speaking at the owner's meetings) that his review of film with Capers showed that other teams played them aggressively because of the Packers offense. They felt they had to start aggressive and play that way all the way through just for a chance to keep up. That also contributes in part.

He did. But after that, he also said they couldn't get into that game of trying to match aggressiveness by sub package. Since I doubt he is talking about scaling back the offense, I think he was referring to his comments about too much nickel and sub on defense. It seems contradictory and I cannot say I understand it except that he seemed to anticipate being in base more this year. Since there are times that would seem to be a poor matchup (less pass rush and Wood on outside corner), I am not sure what he wants to accomplish. He never did say what he saw as the disadvantages of sub packages.

[Upnorth]

he is just good enough that teams need tp respect him on the field. He is not a game changer, but his presence will allow Raji and Clay to be game changers once again. That is what we need, it was what Jenkins was for us. Now all we need is a probowl saftey and it is 2010's d all over again.

[mraynrand]

Hells Bells he cant get any worse can he?

:lol:

[Joemailman]

I'm not a big stat digger, but my recollection is the Packers were atrocious on 3rd down last year. This certainly helps us get off the field on 3rd down. That could be a pretty big help in itself.

Certainly, it's not like adding a probowl caliber 5-tech, but it if you were to compare it to another situational position (say, 3rd CB) it would be like replacing Jarrett Bush (assuming he was your number 3, and we know what that looks like when he is) with a solid veteran nickle back.

I haven't seen one person here jumping with joy, but the general consensus seems that we replaced a glaring (nickle) hole with a player who belongs on the field.

Get off the field one more time in the Giants game, and we might be talking 3-pete right now. The Packers are close and this brings us closer.

Packers were 43% ON 3rd down defensively last year which was 26th. The most glaring thing to me was the inability to get a pass rush even in obvious passing situations. Certainly the loss of Jenkins had something to do with that. Perhaps Hargrove can help there. In addition though I had the sense that the Packers blitzes were less disruptive than they had been in 2010.

[Pugger]

he is just good enough that teams need tp respect him on the field. He is not a game changer, but his presence will allow Raji and Clay to be game changers once again. That is what we need, it was what Jenkins was for us. Now all we need is a probowl saftey and it is 2010's d all over again.

But do we really need a probowl safety? I think a decent pass rush can mask a pedestrian secondary. And if Williams and Shields can return to form we might not be as pedestrian in 2012 as we were in 2011 with some pressure on the QB.

[woodbuck27]

My note to Wist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NwW3GCn7k



COME ON MAN


When you're alternating to dating the two ugliest girls in the school, updating to an average one is an improrvement.

Wynn and Wilson played like Gas Station Attendants last year; we found Roell Preston there and he played at a much higher level years ago. COME ON MAN

At his worst, Hargrove is as good as these chumps

COME ON MAN !!!

" My note to Wist

** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NwW3GCn7k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NwW3GCn7k) " ..... 'B'


** Chris Carter resembling Hines Ward.







Comon' man !

[Bretsky]

I think Jenkins is severely overrated if he is credited with the difference between the 2nd ranked defense and 32nd ranked D. And that was the implication of the wist post I was responding to. Jenkins indeed is more important than either Barnett or Chillar. Despite being part time, Jenkins did play well enough to notch 7 sacks in 11 games in 2010.

Barnett I labeled part time because of his injury in 2010 and the fact that his replacement was still on the roster in 2011.

As for points yielded and the offense, the total number of points scored or yielded is affected by opportunity. The Packers offense scored a lot and it scored very quickly. That gives the opposition a large number of possessions. The more possessions, the greater the number of points will be scored.

As for one dimensional offenses, I am not so sure that has as much impact today as it once did, when the run pass ratio was normally heavier on the run. Passing a lot for today's offenses isn't out of the norm. Even so, a one dimensional offense stands a greater chance to score points if it throws more with reasonable efficiency (easy to accomplish vs Pack D in 2011) and overall, a pass first approach will yield more points for good offenses and less points for bad offenses. Its a high variable strategy and the Packers faced enough good offenses in 2011 that were able to make them pay.

This is not to argue that the D was secretly good. Its was bad and seriously dropped off from 2010. But faults went well beyond Jenkins and the fixes are not dramatic. If teh Packers find an interior pass rusher it will definitely help, but if they do not fix other areas (DB, run D) the improvement will not be back to 2010 levels.


The abilities Jenkins had were severely missed last year and his loss had a negative effect on our defense.
COME ON MAN....................JUST SAY IT
It will feel better; like an addict finally fessing up............come on man !!

[woodbuck27]

I'm not a big stat digger, but my recollection is the Packers were atrocious on 3rd down last year. This certainly helps us get off the field on 3rd down. That could be a pretty big help in itself.

Certainly, it's not like adding a probowl caliber 5-tech, but it if you were to compare it to another situational position (say, 3rd CB) it would be like replacing Jarrett Bush (assuming he was your number 3, and we know what that looks like when he is) with a solid veteran nickle back.

I haven't seen one person here jumping with joy, but the general consensus seems that we replaced a glaring (nickle) hole with a player who belongs on the field.

Get off the field one more time in the Giants game, and we might be talking 3-pete right now. The Packers are close and this brings us closer.

Always 'the eternal optimist' .... backed up.

http://www.nfl.com/player/anthonyhargrove/2505952/profile

Here's what I see:

Anthony Hargrove haS 19.5 Career sacks and 223 Career Tackles ( 55 Assisted ) in an 8 years NFL Career. His best season's 'sack wise' were 2005 RAMS with 6.5 and 2009 SAINTS with 5. Last season with the Seahawks (2011) he recorded 3 Sacks. He'll enter the 2012 season at 29 years of age and will play at a weight of approx. 285 lbs and he's 6'- 3 ". The last season he started a game was 2009.

He's being touted as possibly effective in 'the Nickle' as a third down rushing DE.

We need someone that can drop the QB in first down passing and 5 yards and longer 2nd and 3rd downs. We need a rusher that can take the double team away from Clay Matthews and put this player back on the map as an effective pressure on the QB. Make Clay Matthews effective and positive for our front seven again. Allow Clay Matthews 'a real chance' to get back into the game again.

Is Anthony Hargrove that player? **

Seattle let him walk. TT didn't have the CAP space to sign Anthony Hargrove to much more than the player minumum. So how much of a player does Anthony Hargrove really believe he is?

Are you really very excited about DE Anthony Hargrove... Green Bay Packer?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82769270/article/si-report-saints-hargrove-proclaimed-favre-is-done

"Saints defensive linemen Bobby McCray and [/URL]Anthony Hargrove accounted for multiple penalties and $25,000 in fines for vicious hits on Favre in that 31-28 overtime win, and, as Favre was helped off the field with a sprained ankle, a fired-up Hargrove jawed with teammates, proclaiming: "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!" "

Isn't there the possibility he may be suspended if the NFL decides he had a role in the Bounty Scandal.

Now......

Add in the fact that in his last three games he contributed one (1) Tackle and one (1) Assisted Tackle.

Add in this players age. Anthony Hargrove will be 29 Years of age (July 20,2012).

Does this EXCITE YOU?

Did Ted Thompson get this player in signing Anthony Hargrove?

** I assess this isn't likely. I'm 'in final analysis', as excited about this signing as Wist43. It's not getting done IMO in this signing.

Is it even close to helping improve our front seven?? IMO other than to push others to a higher level.

NO!

Now further...add in to your decision the fact of Anthony Hargrove's character record and ' his last chance status ' in term of:

[URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/free-agent-defensive-lineman-anthony-hargrove-agrees-to-deal-with-packers/2012/03/29/gIQAiS1UjS_story.html (http://www.nfl.com/players/anthonyhargrove/profile?id=HAR144150)

"Hargrove has had some trouble with the NFL as well, including a yearlong suspension in 2008 under the league’s substance abuse policy"

Where has Ted Thompson's and the Green Bay Packers past record on signing such players gone to? Inspite of Neals appeals why does TT go anywhere even close to bringing in 'an Anthony Hargrove' to cover anything involving Neals period of a 4 games suspension?

Anthony Hargrove claims he has cleaned up his act and wants to now set an example and in my books that's wonderfu;l but what was it in him that convinced Ted Thompson to go ahead with this risk of a signing?

Personally now...I don't get it.

[sharpe1027]

Does this EXCITE YOU?

Do you think d. wynn is just as good as hargrove? That was one of the main points being discussed.

Answering your question, no. I see very little "excitement" from anyone in this thread. Some posters were happy with the move because he seems better than wynn. None seemed more than cautiously optimistic.

[woodbuck27]

Do you think d. wynn is just as good as hargrove? That was one of the main points being discussed.

Answering your question, no. I see very little "excitement" from anyone in this thread. Some posters were happy with the move because he seems better than wynn. None seemed more than cautiously optimistic.

Then why? did Ted Thompson make this move? Is replacing Wynn with Hargrove smart, in your view?

Was money taken away from ie Donald Driver as reported. To add a questionable player that isn't 'a Green Bay Packer' character player?

Does those two facts send a positive message to the Packer locker room?

Donald Driver....Anthony Hargrove.

[wist43]

Hargrove can be part of a rotation, but he's certainly on the back end of that rotation - he's a body.

Now that we have him, we need to be looking at how we can move him off the roster with a better player - just as we need to be looking to replace Wynn, Wilson, Greene, Walden, Jones, and Zombo.

All of those players were supposed to be contributers last year either as starters or rotation guys. By way of TT's philosophy and the Packers program of draft and develop, at least a couple of those guys should have stepped up and shown something; but that didn't happen - they all flamed out; they all failed; they all proved they couldn't play.

I don't know how you guys can look at that group of 15 or so front seven players we currently have on the roster and think that we're alright there. That is a dead unit, and a lot of those players need to be replaced sooner rather than later.

Once teams caught up to Capers and Raji wore down?? getting the Packers front seven blocked was easy business. Double Matthews and watch everyone else play the dancing bear game, while the QB is texting the cheerleaders. Without a influx of talent - better talent than Anthony Hargrove - we're going to be watching the Packers get ripped apart on defense again next year.

[pbmax]

The abilities Jenkins had were severely missed last year and his loss had a negative effect on our defense.
COME ON MAN....................JUST SAY IT
It will feel better; like an addict finally fessing up............come on man !!

Never.

Yes, he was sorely missed, especially on pass rush. But even to replace him with someone as good would leave other holes I am almost as worried about (runD, DBs and ROLB). While I have been playing Jenkins denier for almost a year and am enjoying the tin foil hat, I am otherwise quite serious about the additional areas of concern on D.

Unlike wist, I think the talent on D showed itself in individual plays last year. But I am most concerned about the play of Raji, who was not as stout as Pickett in the middle. Without that, the gap discipline disappeared. Trgovac is one of the coaches I was most impressed by early but he has his work cut out for him.

[Scott Campbell]

Hargrove can generate a little pressure. And a little pressure is more than we saw last year.

[woodbuck27]

Hargrove can be part of a rotation, but he's certainly on the back end of that rotation - he's a body.

Now that we have him, we need to be looking at how we can move him off the roster with a better player - just as we need to be looking to replace Wynn, Wilson, Greene, Walden, Jones, and Zombo.

All of those players were supposed to be contributers last year either as starters or rotation guys. By way of TT's philosophy and the Packers program of draft and develop, at least a couple of those guys should have stepped up and shown something; but that didn't happen - they all flamed out; they all failed; they all proved they couldn't play.

I don't know how you guys can look at that group of 15 or so front seven players we currently have on the roster and think that we're alright there. That is a dead unit, and lot of those players need to be replaced sooner rather than later.

Once teams caught up to Capers and Raji wore down?? getting the Packers front seven blocked was easy business. Double Matthews and watch everyone else play the dancing bear game, while the QB is texting the cheerleaders. Without a influx of talent - better talent than Anthony Hargrove - we're going to be watching the Packers get ripped apart on defense again next year.


Add in even if Nick Collins gets the medical approval to go ahead and play. Is MM going to accept the risk or worry as his HC? My guess right now is ...NO! If I'm correct we lost Nick Collins and need a very good Safety to plug that hole .

# 1 CB Charles Woodson is moved to Safety. Who takes his spot effectively? Where is our depth at defensive back?

We needed a much better player out of Free Agency to either assist Clay Matthews (that's NOT Anthony Hargrove) or fill in at Safety or play at a top level in the CB position.

Ted Thompson needed to see this prior to extending TE Jermichael Finley. how many TE's did we have on our roster last season?

He had to see this before bringing Jarrett Bush back.

Instead what we got was:

a) a foul tip

b) a whiff

c) another whiff.

Sorry Packer fans. Ted Thompson struck out !

Sure it appears as if he has changed as he coverd his ass at Center with the Jeff Saturday signing. That's just a maybe! Look at this whole thing at Center in terms of 'the locker room'.

Did we really need CB Jarrett Bush ? I'm aware of his status on ST's.

Anthony Hargrove and help for Clay Matthews ? That's hardley obvious in terms of a positive.

Again the impact of this signing (Anthony Hargrove) on the Packer ' locker room '?

Did Donald Driver sacrifice his money so Ted Thompson could bring Anthony Hargrove in?

[woodbuck27]

Sat. March 30, 2012 - 10:52 AM EDT

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/13/the-free-agent-hot-100/

'Only' 24 players remain NOT signed on this TOP 100 List. Of those 24 players, the following remain unsigned:

7. Ravens cornerback Lardarius Webb (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5331/lardarius-webb) (RFA).

50. Seahawks linebacker David Hawthorne (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5029/david-hawthorne).

52. Redskins linebacker London Fletcher (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2302/london-fletcher).

58. Patriots defensive end Andre Carter (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/436/andre-carter).

59. Jaguars defensive end Matt Roth (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3190/matt-roth).

63. Saints defensive tackle Aubrayo Franklin (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2231/aubrayo-franklin).

69. 49ers safety Reggie Smith (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4831/reggie-smith).

70. Jets safety Jim Leonhard (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3465/jim-leonhard).

75. Eagles defensive tackle Trevor Laws (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4830/trevor-laws).

86. Raiders defensive end Jarvis Moss (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4162/jarvis-moss).

89. Redskins safety O.J. Atogwe (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3283/oj-atogwe).

99. Bears defensive tackle Amobi Okoye (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4174/amobi-okoye).

Note: DE Anthony Hargrove wasn't on this particular TOP 100 List.

[RashanGary]

Eh. . . . Potato, Pot-ah-to

My moneys on the 2012 Packer D.

[pbmax]

Add in even if Nick Collins gets the medical approval to go ahead and play. Is MM going to accept the risk or worry as his HC? My guess right now is ...NO! If I'm correct we lost Nick Collins and need a very good Safety to plug that hole .

# 1 CB Charles Woodson is moved to Safety. Who takes his spot effectively? Where is our depth at defensive back?

We needed a much better player out of Free Agency to either assist Clay Matthews (that's NOT Anthony Hargrove) or fill in at Safety or play at a top level in the CB position.

Ted Thompson needed to see this prior to extending TE Jermichael Finley. how many TE's did we have on our roster last season?

He had to see this before bringing Jarrett Bush back.



Not bringing Jermichael Finley back so you can sign a FA is a poor idea. Actually, poor doesn't cover it. Catastrophic would be better. I can count the number of better players in Free Agency on one hand and except for Mario Williams, none of them play D line in a position the Packers need. And Williams did not want to be a 3-4 OLB anymore than Kampman wanted to be a 3-4 OLB. So you would have let Finley walk for a far lesser player at a premium market price. And that player would have not justified that expense, because they would have been far closer to Hargrove than Williams in talent.

How many TEs did the Packers have on the roster? 5. The second best TE is currently recovering from knee surgery and may not be ready to practice at all prior to the season. Crabtree is a good blocker and a great Twitter follow but offers little in the passing game. DJ Williams did next to nothing in his rookie year and Taylor was the same. Finley is the only healthy NFL caliber pass catcher in the group until DJ Williams develops.

Wood, you keep posting like Thompson will find an answer in FA, like eventually you will find that puzzle piece that completes the outer edge of the picture. What if that piece does not exist in a given FA class? And what happens to talent level of the team and your cap situation when you overpay for the lesser talent?

Sometimes its better to do nothing in that case. Doing nothing in FA got the Packers a Super Bowl in 2010. Doing just a little might be enough to return them there in 2012.

[Scott Campbell]

It wouldn't be March without Woody crying about Ted ruining the upcoming season.

[RashanGary]

Right, and that same front 7, the one that won the SB by playing great defense all year with the same front 7 (except Jenkins) is all of a sudden the worst in the league and we're doomed unless we replace damn near all of them. . . . .


Come on, man.

People are way to quick to panic. Why not wait and see how the season progresses before we go diving off any bridges.

[woodbuck27]

Eh. . . . Potato, Pot-ah-to

My moneys on the 2012 Packer D.

Po ta toe ... as in...... Potatoes gratiné

I'm pullin' for you to win that bet JH. I do NOT want to be correct here. It's just my analysis of the move by Ted Thompson.

I hope he made a good signing.

[woodbuck27]

Right, and that same front 7, the one that won the SB by playing great defense all year with the same front 7 (except Jenkins) is all of a sudden the worst in the league and we're doomed unless we replace damn near all of them. . . . .


Come on, man.

People are way to quick to panic. Why not wait and see how the season progresses before we go diving off any bridges.

JH noone's panicing 'noone's going to dive off any bridge'.

We're just discussing the options that TT had given the condition of our 'D' at season's end and the moves that TT made since then.

Personally and 'just now reading' pbmax's response. Specifically, RE: extending TE Jermichael Finley as in pbmax's view there was no equivalent value available in Free Agency.

Did Ted Thompson have better options?

In order to come to a firm conclusion. We need to look at what the Packers CAP space was at the start of the FA period and consider the money that would have been added. Not resigning Jermichael Finley to a new contract; not bringing back CB/St Jarrett Bush and releasing all the deadwood.

Why carry a load of TC bodies when we might have shored up enough money to go out and get a solid defensive upgrade or two in Free Agency?

[woodbuck27]

Not bringing Jermichael Finley back so you can sign a FA is a poor idea. Actually, poor doesn't cover it. Catastrophic would be better. I can count the number of better players in Free Agency on one hand and except for Mario Williams, none of them play D line in a position the Packers need. And Williams did not want to be a 3-4 OLB anymore than Kampman wanted to be a 3-4 OLB. So you would have let Finley walk for a far lesser player at a premium market price. And that player would have not justified that expense, because they would have been far closer to Hargrove than Williams in talent.

How many TEs did the Packers have on the roster? 5. The second best TE is currently recovering from knee surgery and may not be ready to practice at all prior to the season. Crabtree is a good blocker and a great Twitter follow but offers little in the passing game. DJ Williams did next to nothing in his rookie year and Taylor was the same. Finley is the only healthy NFL caliber pass catcher in the group until DJ Williams develops.

Wood, you keep posting like Thompson will find an answer in FA, like eventually you will find that puzzle piece that completes the outer edge of the picture. What if that piece does not exist in a given FA class? And what happens to talent level of the team and your cap situation when you overpay for the lesser talent?

Sometimes its better to do nothing in that case. Doing nothing in FA got the Packers a Super Bowl in 2010. Doing just a little might be enough to return them there in 2012.

Hi pbmax.

This is the cost that TT decided to pay for Jermichael Finley:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7604564/source-green-bay-packers-jermichael-finley-reach-two-year-15m-deal

That's $7.5 M$ per season on a 2 year contract. We started the FA period with what? ** $7.2 M$ and add that $7.5 M$ ande just considering that we're at $14.7 M$ under the CAP.

** Based on:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/16/cap-space-as-of-march-15/


Ted Thompson couldn't sign a FA besides Mario Williams with that available CAP space that would upgrade our 'D' in our front seven?

Sign a player or two that would free up Clay Matthews?

I'll request that you look at this question:

Looking at the list of FA's available at this time. Posted on this thread this morning. Is it your opinion that none of these could improve 'the Packers Roster' specifically related to ugrading the defense? I'm asking this in terms of his signing Anthony Hargrove?

If Ted Thompson was set at the start of Free Agency with 12.9 Million dollars under the CAP. Couldn't he have been sincerely interested in any FA that was available at the beginning of Free Agency?

How many Anthony Hargroves could he have signed in theory?

[HarveyWallbangers]

If he's right, Hargrove is more than just a body. He was a good player with the Rams and with the Saints in 2009, and he's still only 28. It's not like he's washed up. We'll see though.

[Upnorth]

Never.

Yes, he was sorely missed, especially on pass rush. But even to replace him with someone as good would leave other holes I am almost as worried about (runD, DBs and ROLB). While I have been playing Jenkins denier for almost a year and am enjoying the tin foil hat, I am otherwise quite serious about the additional areas of concern on D.

Unlike wist, I think the talent on D showed itself in individual plays last year. But I am most concerned about the play of Raji, who was not as stout as Pickett in the middle. Without that, the gap discipline disappeared. Trgovac is one of the coaches I was most impressed by early but he has his work cut out for him.

Our run d started out good last year, but when we had to sell out to try to stop the pass they got worse quick. If only we had Jenkins back...
Our run d will improve with our pass rush, also the db's will get better with our pass rush improving, and ROLB was not a problem with the same players in 2010.
I love me some off season kool-aid.

[gbgary]

Not bringing Jermichael Finley back so you can sign a FA is a poor idea. Actually, poor doesn't cover it. Catastrophic would be better.

this!

[woodbuck27]

If he's right, Hargrove is more than just a body. He was a good player with the Rams and with the Saints in 2009, and he's still only 28. It's not like he's washed up. We'll see though.

We all hope A. Hargrove is a gem; but we're looking at this whole defensive need issue in more certain terms.

Of course we can run to the side and go to reality and submit we're NOT Ted Thompson. That would in terms of the Forum 'just be a cop out'.

We've some good minds here. Let's together... come to a solid conclusion.

[woodbuck27]

this!


Back yourself up with 'your facts' to arrive at that response PLEASE.

Thanks.

[Scott Campbell]

We've some good minds here. Let's together... come to a solid conclusion.


I'm pretty sure we've already come to a conclusion. You hate Ted.

[wist43]

Never.

Yes, he was sorely missed, especially on pass rush. But even to replace him with someone as good would leave other holes I am almost as worried about (runD, DBs and ROLB). While I have been playing Jenkins denier for almost a year and am enjoying the tin foil hat, I am otherwise quite serious about the additional areas of concern on D.

Unlike wist, I think the talent on D showed itself in individual plays last year. But I am most concerned about the play of Raji, who was not as stout as Pickett in the middle. Without that, the gap discipline disappeared. Trgovac is one of the coaches I was most impressed by early but he has his work cut out for him.

I give Raji a complete pass for last year... I actually felt bad for the guy as he had to basically hold up against 5 offensive linemen on just about every snap.

His situation was utterly hopeless... he was 1 of 2 NFL calibur DL on the roster, and Capers was playing his smoke and mirrors 2 man fronts what percentage of the time?? I can't necessarly blame Capers either, as he had nothing to work with... it's either get exotic and use smoke and mirrors, or resign yourself to rushing 3 and dropping 8 every snap.

The more Capers ran the Raji-10 defense, the more I worried about Raji's attitude and his ability to hold up physically... he seemed to keep a good attitude, but he was obviously worn down. TT needs to get Raji some help... I don't blame Raji for Raji's performance, I blame TT.

[Patler]

We all hope A. Hargrove is a gem; but we're looking at this whole defensive need issue in more certain terms.

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

[wist43]

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

[Patler]

I give Raji a complete pass for last year... I actually felt bad for the guy as he had to basically hold up against 5 offensive linemen on just about every snap.

His situation was utterly hopeless... he was 1 of 2 NFL calibur DL on the roster, and Capers was playing his smoke and mirrors 2 man fronts what percentage of the time?? I can't necessarly blame Capers either, as he had nothing to work with... it's either get exotic and use smoke and mirrors, or resign yourself to rushing 3 and dropping 8 every snap.

The more Capers ran the Raji-10 defense, the more I worried about Raji's attitude and his ability to hold up physically... he seemed to keep a good attitude, but he was obviously worn down. TT needs to get Raji some help... I don't blame Raji for Raji's performance, I blame TT.

I think that brings up an interesting question. Didn't they flip-flop Pickett and Raji last year from where they played in 2010? Should they move them back?

[Bretsky]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.


Pretty spot on, although I might give them credit for having a couple more than 6 or 7

[pbmax]

Then why? did Ted Thompson make this move? Is replacing Wynn with Hargrove smart, in your view?

Was money taken away from ie Donald Driver as reported. To add a questionable player that isn't 'a Green Bay Packer' character player?

Does those two facts send a positive message to the Packer locker room?

Donald Driver....Anthony Hargrove.

I might have missed this. Was it reported that Driver restructured?

[Patler]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

Ya, I have some real reservations about Sherrod too. Some guys come in and look confused, uncertain. Others look over matched. Confused players need to be coached, and experience often changes them quickly. There usually isn't much that can be done with a player who is simply over matched when he moves to a new level in his sport. Sherrod looked over matched at times. Projecting how a player who is very good at one level will do when he moves up to the next level is the most uncertain part of scouting in any sport.

While I think the net result from the defense can be attributed in large part to poor play from the front seven, that isn't an excuse for the poor individual performances by a lot of the players. Williams didn't cover or tackle the same as he did in 2010. Shields is a huge question. There was a confusion on defense that was not simply poor play up front. Too many players just performed poorly executing their own responsibilities.

[Bretsky]

Finley HAD to be resigned; you don't let talent like that slip away and the other TE's have shown little to nothing so far.

As I hadnoted many times, I'd have traded James Jones if possible and shuffled that money to the D after also restructuring Driver. You have a boatload of James Jones types and you can get them anytime in the draft

[Bretsky]

Ya, I have some real reservations about Sherrod too. Some guys come in and look confused, uncertain. Others look over matched. Confused players need to be coached, and experience often changes them quickly. There usually isn't much that can be done with a player who is simply over matched when he moves to a new level in his sport. Sherrod looked over matched at times. Projecting how a player who is very good at one level will do when he moves up to the next level is the most uncertain part of scouting in any sport.

While I think the net result from the defense can be attributed in large part to poor play from the front seven, that isn't an excuse for the poor individual performances by a lot of the players. Williams didn't cover or tackle the same as he did in 2010. Shields is a huge question. There was a confusion on defense that was not simply poor play up front. Too many players just performed poorly executing their own responsibilities.


I agree; Sherrod looked absolutely lost.

[pbmax]

Hi pbmax.

"my snip"

Ted Thompson couldn't sign a FA besides Mario Williams with that available CAP space that would upgrade our 'D' in our front seven?

Sign a player or two that would free up Clay Matthews?

I'll request that you look at this question:

Looking at the list of FA's available at this time. Posted on this thread this morning. Is it your opinion that none of these could improve 'the Packers Roster' specifically related to ugrading the defense? I'm asking this in terms of his signing Anthony Hargrove?

If Ted Thompson was set at the start of Free Agency with 12.9 Million dollars under the CAP. Couldn't he have been sincerely interested in any FA that was available at the beginning of Free Agency?

How many Anthony Hargroves could he have signed in theory?

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?23734-2012-Free-Agent-Watch&p=660716&viewfull=1#post660716

Today at DE/DT, Tony Hargrove, Rocky Bernard, Amobi Okoye and Derek Landri are all basically similar players who will sign similar deals. If you can pick the winner here Woodbuck, be my guest but I suspect Thompson and his pro personnel people know them better than we do. Andre Carter and Matt Roth are small DEs who would need to sub for an OLB on passing downs. They aren't an ideal fit for the system. Fletcher and Hawthorne play in the middle at LB and couldn't help opposite Clay at ROLB.

If you dump Finley, you could have signed a big name FA. But outside of Mario Williams, who would have been worth it? I haven't seen you tell us who it should have been and for how much? Williams was $9.8 million in cap room and would not have wanted to play in GB at OLB (like Kampman before him). So who would it have been? Someone better than Hargrove? Quite possible. But if they need to be snagged early in FA, then they will be expensive.

And they will not be the player Jermichael Finley is. Ask yourself this question? Would your theoretical big ticket signing (not Mario Williams) have helped to prevent more points than you would lose with Finley not playing offense?

And who is your starting TE woodbuck?

wist has a point that Thompson has missed too often on the D line and its hurting them. But if you are going to say Thompson missed in FA, you need to name the player who was worth more than Finley. Signing a player has a domino effect. In your scenario, that domino is Finley and he is very good. Which means your theoretical player needs to be better than him to make the team better.

[Patler]

Without attributing blame for whether or not they were good picks to start out with, a bit of luck in the health department for Harrell and Neal might have made the outlook completely different. Throw in Jolly overcoming his demons and it is a lot different.

While TT may not have addressed the D early enough last year, overall he has not ignored it, He just has not been as successful with his picks. Bad luck, or are the Packers just not as adept scouting defensive players?

[RashanGary]

I agree; Sherrod looked absolutely lost.


Agreed. He was a total project. He came from a college that played non-pro technique. Everything he was learning was all new, and it showed. Guys like him, that come from schools that are notorious for not producing NFL ready lineman and rarely produce NFL lineman at all, they can work out, but it usually takes time. It's no guarantee that he sucks, but it is a guarantee that he sucked from day 1 here, and it's a guarantee that he's a project, at best. Give me Marshall Newhouse. He showed more than Sherrod ever did.

And Newhouse came from a school that plays non-pro technique too. He was a project. The difference between Newhouse and Sherrod is that Newhouse stayed healthy his whole rookie year and got to work on his technique while he waited in the wings. Year two, he came out and played OK. Where he came from, the learning curve, there is more reason to believe he'll be a good LT than there is Sherrod. Unlike Bulaga who came in with steady, consistent technique, Newhouse is still a work in progress. He has a lot of room to grow. He's a project who's shown potential on the NFL level.

There is a reason teams keep drafting lineman from schools who coach NFL style line play. It's because you can see it on tape. They do it the same way they're going to be expected to do it on the next level. Iowa, Wiscconsin, Alabama, etc. . . . Those schools produce players who can play right away, players who don't have so many question marks about if they can do it on the next level. Mississippi State, TCU. . . . They don't. GM's don't pick them high because there is a lot of, "can he do it" type questions.

I give it a chance, TT has taken projects who've panned out. Shields, Tramon, etc. . . .

Even Sitton, he came from a zone scheme, a scheme that was NFL style play. He was less of a project than Sherrod and we took Sherrod with our first pick. Sitton was a 4th rounder. I really did not like the pick at all. The only reason I had moderate warmth to it was that he's a naturally big guy with a ton of "potential." There are a million and 1 guys who are 6 feet tall and 220 pounds. There are very few who are 6'6" and carry 320 yet move like they're 270. Even then, I give a resounding, "Fuck. . . THAT!"

TT is fallible. He fell for the pretty girl with curls, and that's a big "don't do it" rule of his.

[pbmax]

Sherrod was a multi-year starter in the SEC at tackle and was very good. Physically, he fits the position better than Newhouse.

I did not see confusion in the kid. I saw a player who had played 4 years at left tackle get moved to left guard while learning a new offense. Then in virtually his first game action, he was moved to right tackle. After a rough two series, I thought he played pretty well on the right side. Sherrod, if his leg is healthy, is going to be fine.

His college offense required a lot of pass blocking. At left tackle in the Packers offense, the amount of adjustment on most plays is limited. And he has already shown he can run block better than Clifton while he was at guard.

[Patler]

Sherrod was a multi-year starter in the SEC at tackle and was very good. Physically, he fits the position better than Newhouse.

I did not see confusion in the kid. I saw a player who had played 4 years at left tackle get moved to left guard while learning a new offense. Then in virtually his first game action, he was moved to right tackle. After a rough two series, I thought he played pretty well on the right side. Sherrod, if his leg is healthy, is going to be fine.

His college offense required a lot of pass blocking. At left tackle in the Packers offense, the amount of adjustment on most plays is limited. And he has already shown he can run block better than Clifton while he was at guard.

You and I saw Sherrod completely differently. Unlike Bulaga in 2010, who stepped in at guard in preseason and looked physically like he belonged even when he did make mistakes, who then was surprisingly asked to play RT and looked the same; I saw Sherrod as a guy who didn't look like he belonged at guard when he played there, at LT when they moved him there in preseason games, or during the season at RT. Quite simply, I thought he was out of his league, even against less than stellar competition during pre-season.

Most recent Packer O-lineman rookies have been asked to play different positions. Even when he was moved back to his familiar LT in pre-season, I thought Sherrod struggled a lot against mediocre 3rd and 4th stringers. Bulaga, Lang, Sitton, Spitz all looked a lot better right off the bat than Sherrod did.

I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong.

[Fritz]

IF Sherrod heals, I think he'll be fine. The FA signings will help at the bottom end of the roster, but as seems to be the case with Ted's teams, and maybe with the NFL these days, the Packers are going to have to count on probably two or three rookies to step up big this year. And that's on defense.

So I hope that this whole BPA thing miraculously coincides with areas of need in the first three rounds...say, a DE, a ROLB, and a corner or a safety.

[pbmax]

You and I saw Sherrod completely differently. Unlike Bulaga in 2010, who stepped in at guard in preseason and looked physically like he belonged even when he did make mistakes, who then was surprisingly asked to play RT and looked the same; I saw Sherrod as a guy who didn't look like he belonged at guard when he played there, at LT when they moved him there in preseason games, or during the season at RT. Quite simply, I thought he was out of his league, even against less than stellar competition during pre-season.

Most recent Packer O-lineman rookies have been asked to play different positions. Even when he was moved back to his familiar LT in pre-season, I thought Sherrod struggled a lot against mediocre 3rd and 4th stringers. Bulaga, Lang, Sitton, Spitz all looked a lot better right off the bat than Sherrod did.

I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong.

I thought his short stint at RT tackle late in the season (or was it two stints?) looked quite encouraging. I did not like him as much at guard, Bulaga had him there though to be fair several scouts thought that would be Bulaga's best position. Also Bulaga was in the process of unseating Colledge, Sherrod was battling Lang. I think Sherrod is a left tackle only and will only shine when he is out there permanently. It'll be curious if he is in camp to see who gets what snaps.

I have missed on college talent way too often to describe myself as convinced, but I think he will succeed at that spot/

[Patler]

IF Sherrod heals, I think he'll be fine. The FA signings will help at the bottom end of the roster, but as seems to be the case with Ted's teams, and maybe with the NFL these days, the Packers are going to have to count on probably two or three rookies to step up big this year. And that's on defense.

So I hope that this whole BPA thing miraculously coincides with areas of need in the first three rounds...say, a DE, a ROLB, and a corner or a safety.

When you get to the bottom of the first round, its more likely that there will be a larger pool of similarly talented players, unless a true upper echelon player drops unexpectedly. If there is a lerger pool of similarly talented players, the opportunity for the Packers to match one of the BPAs to an area of team need increases significantly.

But what if the clear BPA is a center, a half-step above BPA(2) who is a DE/OLB? The BPA is at an area of team need, but hopefully not of immediate team need. Is it so wrong to draft the center?

[Patler]

I thought his short stint at RT tackle late in the season (or was it two stints?) looked quite encouraging. I did not like him as much at guard, Bulaga had him there though to be fair several scouts thought that would be Bulaga's best position. Also Bulaga was in the process of unseating Colledge, Sherrod was battling Lang. I think Sherrod is a left tackle only and will only shine when he is out there permanently. It'll be curious if he is in camp to see who gets what snaps.

I have missed on college talent way too often to describe myself as convinced, but I think he will succeed at that spot/

I sure hope so. It seems that maybe both Sherrod and Newhouse are best suited to LT. That's OK for Sherrod who fits the part. It's unfortunate for Newhouse who looks like he should play somewhere else.

[Fritz]

When you get to the bottom of the first round, its more likely that there will be a larger pool of similarly talented players, unless a true upper echelon player drops unexpectedly. If there is a lerger pool of similarly talented players, the opportunity for the Packers to match one of the BPAs to an area of team need increases significantly.

But what if the clear BPA is a center, a half-step above BPA(2) who is a DE/OLB? The BPA is at an area of team need, but hopefully not of immediate team need. Is it so wrong to draft the center?

No, it's not wrong at all. I'm just acting like a fan. I was unhappy when Ron Wolf chose Chad Clifton in the second round, because that at the time was not an area of immediate need. I was also unhappy that Ted gave up a second and what, two thirds? - to move up for Clay Matthews. So I don't know very much. But like many fans, I see glaring needs and am thinking short term. I'd love to see a big, quick, mature rookie ROLB step in like Matthews did, and I'd like to see a hulking, smart, quick rookie DE step right in and "fix" things. But if TT drafts a center, or drafts a running back, I'll bite my lip and remember my avatar.

[LP]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

[pbmax]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

That is true.

[Rutnstrut]

Finley HAD to be resigned; you don't let talent like that slip away and the other TE's have shown little to nothing so far.

As I hadnoted many times, I'd have traded James Jones if possible and shuffled that money to the D after also restructuring Driver. You have a boatload of James Jones types and you can get them anytime in the draft

Yeah Finley has great talent, at dropping the damn ball. He is an over rated big mouth, now that he got his contract I'm sure he will get some major "injury".

[Cheesehead Craig]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

My thoughts exactly on Sherrod. I think a full offseason is going to do wonders for him. He'll get more comfortable and the results will show.

[Brandon494]

Yeah Finley has great talent, at dropping the damn ball. He is an over rated big mouth, now that he got his contract I'm sure he will get some major "injury".

This guy brings great insight to the forum. Finley only had the best season ever by a Green Bay TE and has yet to reach his full potential.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I remember Bulaga struggling for his first handful of starts. He didn't come in and light the world on fire. I remember having some concern that the scouts who said his arms were too short might be right.

[Joemailman]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

Not only the lockout, but he was put at LG during training camp and struggled and seemed to lose his confidence. He showed some toughness by playing well when inserted into the lineup when Bulaga got hurt.

McCarthy seems pretty optimistic about Sherrod's injury recovery:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/mccarthy-has-afternoon-plans-for-packers-lo4pqtr-145037435.html


Rookie offensive tackle Derek Sherrod had surgery in December to repair a broken tibia, but McCarthy said he could be back in time for training camp.

"He's there (at the facility) every day," he said. "He looks better every time I see him. They're projecting probably training camp, so we'll know more when we get to OTAs. Hopefully, he can get out there in June and do something."

[smuggler]

I'm pretty sure that Newhouse looked much better at RT when he played there than at LT last season.

[Bretsky]

Sherrod was a multi-year starter in the SEC at tackle and was very good. Physically, he fits the position better than Newhouse.

I did not see confusion in the kid. I saw a player who had played 4 years at left tackle get moved to left guard while learning a new offense. Then in virtually his first game action, he was moved to right tackle. After a rough two series, I thought he played pretty well on the right side. Sherrod, if his leg is healthy, is going to be fine.

His college offense required a lot of pass blocking. At left tackle in the Packers offense, the amount of adjustment on most plays is limited. And he has already shown he can run block better than Clifton while he was at guard.



Were we watching the same player ? Hmmm

[Pugger]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

I think you have hit upon the truth here. Some of us are forgetting these young kids didn't get the benefit of OTAs and mini-camps before TC started last summer.

[smuggler]

Yeah Finley has great talent, at dropping the damn ball. He is an over rated big mouth, now that he got his contract I'm sure he will get some major "injury".

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=1920&year_max=2011&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&draft_round_min=0&draft_round_max=99&league_id=&team_id=gnb&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_te=Y&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=av

Best all-around season by a Packer TE and a top 50 season all-time all-around by a TE. Also, this was with him underachieving as you say, and his hands have never been as bad as they were this season. The drops should be cured next year to a large extent. We already know him to have great ball-skills.

[Patler]

Maybe I'm wrong but, didn't Bulaga and Newhouse have an entire offseason to study and get acclimated to the pro game before they had to take the field? Didn't Sherrod kinda get screwed a little by that lockout thingee? How much time did he actually have in before that first preseason game? I think he deserves another season before he gets labeled a bust.

I don't think anyone is labeling him a bust yet, some just have concerns based on how he played last year.

The lack of camp has been mentioned time and time again for all the young players, but I think the impact is more for players going into their second years (like Shields in 2011) than for rookies, and unfortunately Sherrod will miss all the off-season stuff this year, too.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bottom line is that Finley is a difference maker no matter what his numbers or how many balls he drops. Yes, he had a big problem with drops in 2011--although I'd be surprised if that lasts (same way I felt about Jordy after his problem with drops in 2010). However, he opens up the offense for other players. Not a lot of players do that. None on the roster and probably few, if any, in the draft (although I haven't researched it enough to know what the exact number what be).

[woodbuck27]

This guy brings great insight to the forum. Finley only had the best season ever by a Green Bay TE and has yet to reach his full potential.

Whoa! On Rutnstrut. This is a new poster here and we need all the new blood we can get. (-:

I hope this post will help you Brandon494. I mean no disrespect nor want to start a war.

Why not rebut the post instead of insulting,undermining or attacking the poster!? In other words if you must ...attack the post never attack the poster. I mean it's not like your even in a heated debate with this poster Packer fan. It's like the fella is walking down your street and you decide to shoot bee bee's at him. Geeeessh !

Is that post one that gave you 'a particular pleasure' or satisfaction? If you disagree with that poster why not better just surround him with proof that the post isn't creditable. For example....

It's done like this:

" Finley only had the best season ever by a Green Bay TE..." Brandon494

Sorry but your mistaken !

The Green Bay Packers have had some solid TE's. Fellas named Ron Kramer, Ed West,Keith Jackson and Marv Fleming come to mind.


Ever hear of a fella named Paul Coffman? He was a Green Bay Packer TE for 8 seasons (1978-85). Many Packer fans will say that Paul Coffman was their pick as OUR best ever TE. Stat's wise support that as 'a fact'.

Jermichael Finley's best season was last year (2011) in a four year career with 767 yards and 8 TD's. He started 13 games and had 55 receptions (13.9 yard avg.) with a long of 41 yards

In 1983 Mr Paul Coffman started all 16 games. He had 54 receptions, 814 yards receiving (15.4 yard avg.) a long of 81 yards and a walloping 11 TD's. Paul Coffman exceeded Jermichael's 2011 season stat's in terms of total yards, avg. yards per catch, His long was 41 yards longer at 81 yards. Paul Coffman scored 3 more TD's than Jermichael Finley did last season (2011).

Paul Coffman demonstrated consistency as well. He followed up that season in 1984-85 starting 29 games with combined totals of 1228 total yards receiving ( approx. 13.4 yard avg ) a long of 44 yards and 15 TD's.

Jermichael Finley may develop in terms of being assignment sure; but he's not there yet and there are questiions about TT's decision to retain his number one TE. Many Packer fans didn't want him back in the Green and Gold. You'll re-call all the controversy regarding this Packer.

Is Jermichael Finley the protypical ideal TE? Is Jermichael Finley credited as being a solid blocker? Isn't that part of the skill set desired for a Pro Bowl TE? Has Jermichael Finley ever made a Pro Bowl?

Check out Mr. Bubba Franks as a Packer TE. Bubba scored 31 TDs to rank second behind Paul Coffman in team record books at the position. Bubba Franks 27 TD's from 2001-04 only trailed Tony Gonzales. How does that compare to Mr. J. Finley?

Jermichael Finley has produced 15 TD's in four season career to date (2008-11).

[woodbuck27]

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

Your points of question in this post are solid and relevant to this discussion. Nice post.

[woodbuck27]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

There are two questions here RE;Our 'D'.

a) True talent 'by position' as a starting unit on 'D'. Realistically how talented are our starting 'Eleven' ? How does that affect our team concerning core talent and ability? or...

How that talent acts to undermine or not; cohesiveness for our core of defenders ?

b) When the starters lack true talent how can we deal with adversity, ie injury .... when at every position we lack depth?

[Pugger]

Bottom line is that Finley is a difference maker no matter what his numbers or how many balls he drops. Yes, he had a big problem with drops in 2011--although I'd be surprised if that lasts (same way I felt about Jordy after his problem with drops in 2010). However, he opens up the offense for other players. Not a lot of players do that. None on the roster and probably few, if any, in the draft (although I haven't researched it enough to know what the exact number what be).

James Jones had drop issues too.

[woodbuck27]

I think you have hit upon the truth here. Some of us are forgetting these young kids didn't get the benefit of OTAs and mini-camps before TC started last summer.

NOT related to the above post by Pugger.

First..... please let me first state this as a TRUTH ...a fact you can believe. I swear this 'as the TRUTH' on my parents grave.

I do NOT hate Ted Thompson. Please do NOT even imagine I could be so low.

Any poster here that would even imagine that; is 'lying to you RE: ME

Expressed differently... that poster is...totally out to lunch in terms of who/what I am.

It sure looks like this to me:

That poster is aiming to undermine my body of work as a poster here. Only trying to totally discredit me as a poster here. That poster is a poster that should be carefully observed for at least being a trouble maker and as a bottom line creating destructive mischief.

You 'only' give that poster power if you buy into that posters mischief. I never have and what you chose to believe is on you. Good luck. (-:

************************************************** *********

Now RE: Puggers post:

I hope that this is the key point in terms of the dramatic falloff of our pass 'D'.

TT's has set his plan and that included confidence in his TE and replacing his Center on 'O'. People here love TT resigning TE J. M. pbmax backs up that signing reporting that the Free Agent market didn't offer his value at $7.5 M$. I'm not sure without checking and I look at our depth on offense as strong and maybe? TT might have let JM walk and his questionable consistency and 'the fact' he's not, as yet assignment sure and having(4-5 TE's on our roster. As reasons he might have been let go.

Instead Jermichael Finley is our TE. I hope he grows....improves.

Ted Thompson brings back a valued ST player in CB/ST Jarrett Bush. A TC 'pusher' in DE Anthony Hargrove ( that signing is loaded with ?why's? as it's closelt examined). I mean to just see TT sign anyone is EXCITING but upon closer examination. mmmm

Why can't I get excited or even reassured that that signing by Ted Thompson was clearly astute today?

We don't get any difference maker on 'D' in terms of a servicable 3 down pass rusher.

We took a hard loss to the NY Giants coming off a 15-1 regular season. It was obviuous to us as fans that our team came out flat against the GIANTS who went on to be Super Bowl Champs. We have a solid 'O'; the best last season in the NFL during our regular season. We have to believe that MM and his staff will groom our OL to protect our QB. That 'O' has good depth. That 'O' has arguably the BEST QB in the NFL. Can that 'O' overcome a lousy 'D' that has nowhere to go but up? We can hope so.

I believe that Ted Thompson will better ensure our future having **11 (12 ?) draft picks. We've overall a good team that will need to work hard to get into the playoffs. Other NFL teams will improve and maybe? gain on us.

There's plenty to be happy about and alot to look forward to as Packer fans.

GO PACKERS !

** 7 rounds plus 4 Compensatory picks = 11 picks....How do we get 12 picks?

[LP]

I don't think anyone is labeling him a bust yet,



and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust



Not quite, but close. I don't know how much physical activity he will get this offseason, but he will at least get the classroom stuff, which should give him a better grasp on what he's supposed to do on whatever play or protection is called.

[Fritz]

I really think people are overreacting to Sherrod's rookie year. I thought he looked pretty good at RT there before he got hurt. They'll coach 'em up.

Now if TT can draft a center to develop in the next two years, and if Ray Dominguez and Sampson Genus develop in the off-season and in training camp, then things will be looking good.

[pbmax]

Woodbuck, even when you have a point you get distracted. Rutnstrut is an insult poster who only pops up to deliver an easy insult and casual racism (Finley drops passes and will now be a malingerer! He's black after all, we all know they are lazy once they get paid!) and, presumably, watch the carnage. He is effective enough that he almost seems like a plant from the forum to guarantee an additional 10 posts on any thread just to denounce him. You and Brandon should look at his history of posts and see what kind of quality information and thinking he brings to the table. He should be on everyone's ignore list. In my mind, he is the definition of a troll.

Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler) didn't even blink at him. He might be on their ignore list or they simply exercised some self control.

Coffman 1983 and Finley 2011 (or 2009 with a playoff game) is a great debate and I wish more had been written about it than about rutnstrut. But if you wish to be the best you can be and contribute the most to the forum, you cannot express an opinion (even backed with stats) and declare an opinion as fact. Stats are facts, they do not solely act to prove another fact, especially as an answer to a question as nebulous as best ever.

smuggler posted that Pro Football Reference ranks Finley's '11 season higher than Coffman's '83 (AV 12 versus 10). A good question is why would that be? As woodbuck states, a superficial glance at the stat line makes Coffman's season look pretty amazing.

And since Brandon posted that he had the best season ever, its irrelevant whether the Packers have had better TEs over their career.

[pbmax]

I'm pretty sure that Newhouse looked much better at RT when he played there than at LT last season.

I agree that Newhouse could be fantastic there. Its a good group of four if one wasn't currently injured and another recovering from a surgery. Unfortunately, both of those are LTs.

Even though they might make it through this camp with this group, they need another LT prospect to replace Clifton after this year. And they might need that body sooner since Sherrod will miss another offseason. On the plus side, he will get to learn the playbook again with a full off season of meetings and will hopefully be able to concentrate on one position.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/defensive-energy-boost-lo4ps3j-145254405.html

Packers aim for defensive energy boost

"We'd like to increase the competition throughout the entire team, especially so on defense." - Packers head coach Mike McCarthy.

By Tom Silverstein (tsilverstein@journalsentinel.com) of the Journal Sentinel
March 30, 2012

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-hope-hargrove-can-help-defense-lo4ppo1-145036145.html

Packers hope Hargrove can help defense

Defensive end Anthony Hargrove (top) played last season with the Seattle Seahawks, finishing with 18 tackles and three sacks while playing 27.1% of the snaps.

By Tyler Dunne (tdunne@journalsentinel.com) of the Journal Sentinel
March 29, 2012


" "He's definitely a high-energy guy," Red Bryant said. "His motor is always running. He's definitely going to be a guy you can count on to make a big play throughout the course of the game and throughout the course of the season. He has a high energy, a high motor. Put in the right situation, it's definitely going to pay off." Red Bryant (Seattle)

"He was a phenomenal teammate, a great guy," Bryant said. "He's definitely a team-oriented guy and a great leader. He did a great job for us last year. We're definitely going to miss him around the locker room. We truly did enjoy him last year, especially myself." " ... Red Bryant


**He should offer the Packers' defensive front something it sorely lacks - speed.

** He may thrive in a specific, pass-rushing role.

** Hargrove was the top interior rusher on a Super Bowl champion. Finishing with 42 tackles, five sacks and three fumble recoveries. He should help Green Bay as one of the two down linemen nickel package. And, as of now, Hargrove is probably the defense's best option to start in base.

** He was an integral part of a Saints defense that forced 47 turnovers (including playoffs) en route to a Super Bowl triumph over Indianapolis.

** Anthony Hargrove is one player in the thick of the Saints' bounty scandal. It's unknown whether he'll be suspended.

** Hargrove's career nearly caved. He violated the league's substance abuse policy twice, leading to a season-long suspension in 2008.
One more violation and he's out of the NFL.

[smuggler]

smuggler posted that Pro Football Reference ranks Finley's '11 season higher than Coffman's '83 (AV 12 versus 10). A good question is why would that be? As woodbuck states, a superficial glance at the stat line makes Coffman's season look pretty amazing.

The AV system is far from definitive, however, it does put Finley with a fine group. AV takes a lot of factors into account in order to compare players across eras, and while unbiased, it is certainly flawed.

[MJZiggy]

Woodbuck, you can't use the pictures either. They're copyrighted and belong to Getty Images. You have to pay to use them.

[Fritz]

"Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler)..."

Ahem. Cough, cough. And? And?

[Joemailman]

"Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler)..."

Ahem. Cough, cough. And? And?

I guess we're the 99%.

[Fritz]

Let's occupy something. Like maybe the sick corners of Madtown's mind.

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck, you can't use the pictures either. They're copyrighted and belong to Getty Images. You have to pay to use them.

Noted and revised ... Thank You.

[LP]

Let's occupy something. Like maybe the sick corners of Madtown's mind.

Wow, you really like living on the edge don't you.

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck, even when you have a point you get distracted. Rutnstrut is an insult poster who only pops up to deliver an easy insult and casual racism (Finley drops passes and will now be a malingerer! He's black after all, we all know they are lazy once they get paid!) and, presumably, watch the carnage. He is effective enough that he almost seems like a plant from the forum to guarantee an additional 10 posts on any thread just to denounce him. You and Brandon should look at his history of posts and see what kind of quality information and thinking he brings to the table. He should be on everyone's ignore list. In my mind, he is the definition of a troll.

Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler) didn't even blink at him. He might be on their ignore list or they simply exercised some self control.

Coffman 1983 and Finley 2011 (or 2009 with a playoff game) is a great debate and I wish more had been written about it than about rutnstrut. But if you wish to be the best you can be and contribute the most to the forum, you cannot express an opinion (even backed with stats) and declare an opinion as fact. Stats are facts, they do not solely act to prove another fact, especially as an answer to a question as nebulous as best ever.

smuggler posted that Pro Football Reference ranks Finley's '11 season higher than Coffman's '83 (AV 12 versus 10). A good question is why would that be? As woodbuck states, a superficial glance at the stat line makes Coffman's season look pretty amazing.

And since Brandon posted that he had the best season ever, its irrelevant whether the Packers have had better TEs over their career.

1) I didn't get distracted.

I offered Brandon494 decent advice. I did so mannerly and unobtrusively. To be honest I didn't see Rutnstrut's original post that Brandon494 replied to pbmax.

2) I'm ignorant in terms of Brandon494's response RE: The quality of Rutnstruts posts. I certainly didn't agree with the integrity of Rutnstrut post in terms of predicting an injury for JF now that he's locked up. So I don't even rebut him. I've only noted that this poster is new here in terms of his number of posts. I do not want new posters scared away 'unnecessarily' and I admit in this case I may have got that wrong.

3) My post didn't judge either poster involved Brandon494 or Rutnstrut.

4) My post to Brandon494 didn't attack or defend either poster. I have no opinion on either poster. I'm certainly not in the position you are to make judgements on the quality, agendas or integrity of posters. I have noted your opinion that Rutnstrut may 'in fact ' be a TROLL, pbmax.

5) All of the above took about 6 lines of script. RE: Did JF have the best season of any Packer TE in history which I covered in 16 lines of script. That portion of the post was focused and well presented and at least arguably accurate in terms of my position.

I disagree that my caution to Brandon494...my concern and decent advice was the Lions share of that post. It wasn't.

Why not just PM me that Rutnstrut is in your view 'a TROLL'.

6) If I'm correct or not in your opinion or judgement is all your own pbmax. I made a post and that post was properly supported. That post was written respectfully.

7) Again I have taken note of your suspicions RE: Rutnstrut.

I mean no offense...take no offense. (-:

Have a nice afternoon pbmax.

[Fritz]

You are one strange ranger, Woodrow.

[Bretsky]

No, it's not wrong at all. I'm just acting like a fan. I was unhappy when Ron Wolf chose Chad Clifton in the second round, because that at the time was not an area of immediate need. I was also unhappy that Ted gave up a second and what, two thirds? - to move up for Clay Matthews. So I don't know very much. But like many fans, I see glaring needs and am thinking short term. I'd love to see a big, quick, mature rookie ROLB step in like Matthews did, and I'd like to see a hulking, smart, quick rookie DE step right in and "fix" things. But if TT drafts a center, or drafts a running back, I'll bite my lip and remember my avatar.


Now we all love Clay Matthews and we are all happy TT made that trade.

With that being said, I think there was a OLB there in round two that many of us really liked who we likely would have drafted.

Quiz...anybody recall who that is ?

[Bretsky]

That is true.


I don't think anybody is labbeling him a bust; but there are concerns. There were other OL who played pretty well James Carpenter/Badger Stud/ drafted in that range who looked pretty good w/o the camp as well.

[Bretsky]

I remember Bulaga struggling for his first handful of starts. He didn't come in and light the world on fire. I remember having some concern that the scouts who said his arms were too short might be right.


I never had much concern with Bulaga after watching a couple games; at worst it appeared he wold be a very solid guard

[Smidgeon]

I really think people are overreacting to Sherrod's rookie year. I thought he looked pretty good at RT there before he got hurt. They'll coach 'em up.

Now if TT can draft a center to develop in the next two years, and if Ray Dominguez and Sampson Genus develop in the off-season and in training camp, then things will be looking good.

What happens now that Campen doesn't have Philbin to back him up? :D

[woodbuck27]

You are one strange ranger, Woodrow.

ranger? Canadian Ranger?...Ranger in Wildlife and Waterfoul Law? ...Ranger in the Canadian Military Forces?


It's sometimes the most difficult thing to define TRUTH without consideration for ignorance.

Is ignorance universal and the same as stupidity?

TRUTH is often clouded because human ignorance is based in prejudice and subjective stances.

Can we say that ignorance dictates stupidity? A difficult question.

It's my experience that:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe."

[RashanGary]

How many truths really matter much?

In absence of joy, contentment or the other warm fuzzy motivators of the world, I suppose the truth might be a prime motivator.

Ignorance, stupidity. . . . . I don't know that those words mean much at all. Most truths are worthless anyway. The few that matter are the impossible ones to answer. If we were to place value on only the truths that matter, we're all ignorant.

I don't have a whole lot of disagreement that people are stupid. It's one of the things we all share.

Welcome to humanity.

A lot of people know a lot of stupid truths, but in the end, what do they matter? Does your stupid view of the Packers change your life much? I doubt it. If someone here is wrong or right, does it change theirs much. If they think it does, sadly, they're probably in a good bit of misery.

[MJZiggy]

How many truths really matter much?

In absence of joy, contentment or the other warm fuzzy motivators of the world, I suppose the truth might be a prime motivator.

Ignorance, stupidity. . . . . I don't know that those words mean much at all. Most truths are worthless anyway. The few that matter are the impossible ones to answer. If we were to place value on only the truths that matter, we're all ignorant.

I don't have a whole lot of disagreement that people are stupid. It's one of the things we all share.

Welcome to humanity.

Since we're all ignorant anyway, and therefor stupid, we might as well enjoy our stupid lives.

So what you're saying is that since none of it matters, I should just drink more to justify my own stupidity. So noted.

[woodbuck27]

Now we all love Clay Matthews and we are all happy TT made that trade.

With that being said, I think there was a OLB there in round two that many of us really liked who we likely would have drafted.

Quiz...anybody recall who that is ?


How about the St. Louis RAMS LB James Laurinaitis? He's no slouch.

[RashanGary]

So what you're saying is that since none of it matters, I should just drink more to justify my own stupidity. So noted.

I think what I was saying was, "who cares if we're stupid, stupid :)"


congrats on your pro-pickem championship!

[RashanGary]

So what you're saying is that since none of it matters, I should just drink more to justify my own stupidity. So noted.

Drinking more would neither confirm or deny your stupidity. You're born stupid at the core :)

[woodbuck27]

How many truths really matter much?

In absence of joy, contentment or the other warm fuzzy motivators of the world, I suppose the truth might be a prime motivator.

Ignorance, stupidity. . . . . I don't know that those words mean much at all. Most truths are worthless anyway. The few that matter are the impossible ones to answer. If we were to place value on only the truths that matter, we're all ignorant.

I don't have a whole lot of disagreement that people are stupid. It's one of the things we all share.

Welcome to humanity.

A lot of people know a lot of stupid truths, but in the end, what do they matter? Does your stupid view of the Packers change your life much? I doubt it. If someone here is wrong or right, does it change theirs much. If they think it does, sadly, they're probably in a good bit of misery.

"Does your stupid view of the Packers change your life much? " JH

I respectfully submit that my view as a Packer fan cannot be stupid. I simply want my team to return to the Super Bowl and win another championship ASAP.

Should that positive hope paint me as stupid? I hardly think so. Therefore your question is moot or irrelevant. (-:

[Fritz]

What happens now that Campen doesn't have Philbin to back him up? :D

Uh...he'll turn to Shawn Slocum for help?

[Bretsky]

How about the St. Louis RAMS LB James Laurinaitis? He's no slouch.


good call, but not the one.

A lot of the Rats really liked Conner Barwin, who would have been available when TT picked in round two (the pick he traded away to the Texans)

Conner Barwin is also an OLB ...for the Texans......and made his 1st Pro Bowl this year

[Bretsky]

Uh...he'll turn to Shawn Slocum for help?


I think I stand alone in still thinking Campen is a decent OL coach; look at the players he has and how they have developed.

[woodbuck27]

good call, but not the one.

A lot of the Rats really liked Conner Barwin, who would have been available when TT picked in round two (the pick he traded away to the Texans)

Conner Barwin is also an OLB ...for the Texans......and made his 1st Pro Bowl this year


Yes my guess LB James Laurinaitis went at #35 (second round) and was listed as ILB. He made the All Rookie Team. Last season he had 142 Tackles and 3 SACKS ; 7 pass defensed and 2 Picks.

Connor Barwin (Cincinnati) went in the 2nd round (2009) at Pick #46 as a DE to The Houston TEXANS.

Connor Barwin #98 DE

Houston Texans (http://www.nfl.com/teams/houstontexans/profile?team=HOU) | Official Team Site (http://www.houstontexans.com/)

Height: 6-4 Weight: 264 Age: 25
Born: 10/15/1986 Southfield , MI
College: Cincinnati
Experience: 3rd season
High School: University of Detroit HS [MI]



2011 Stat's:

TCKL47; SACK's 11.5; FF1; INT 0.

[pbmax]

"Notice the best of the posters (Bretsky, Harv and Patler)..."

Ahem. Cough, cough. And? And?

Zig, Sharpe, guin and Swede?

[pbmax]

1) I didn't get distracted.


Why not just PM me that Rutnstrut is in your view 'a TROLL'.

6) If I'm correct or not in your opinion or judgement is all your own pbmax. I made a post and that post was properly supported. That post was written respectfully.

7) Again I have taken note of your suspicions RE: Rutnstrut.

I mean no offense...take no offense. (-:

Have a nice afternoon pbmax.

Fair point. I could have PM'd you my opinion of the poster in question. But I would really like to know why Approximate Value (which is the proper name of AV, not Average Value) values Finley's year over Coffman's. And I do not care who had the better career at this point since Finley is both young and is now playing for a monster contract in 2 years. That will be a more interesting conversation in 2 years.

That, plus I read your post as a corrective of Brandon's contention, meaning, it was also aimed in part at rutnstrut. In my opinion, he deserves only the attention his insult posts provide and no more.

[Upnorth]

So what you're saying is that since none of it matters, I should just drink more to justify my own stupidity. So noted.

Your still dating the bears fan?

[Upnorth]

Let's occupy something. Like maybe the sick corners of Madtown's mind.

I thought that was were harlan lived.

[MJZiggy]

Your still dating the bears fan?

No, I'm perfectly single these days.

[Upnorth]

I love how a Hargrove thread turned into a Oline choaching thread at one point. We are truely distracted by the shiny pennies around us aren't we?

To that end, I have to agree with Bretsky that Campden has done a very good good with the tools he has been given. Now that he is getting first round talent our line is looking amazing. If he can get them to over come the loss of Wells I will be truely amazed. Those who are labelling Sherrod a bust, get your heads outta your butts!!! Dude had a 30 day offseason to learn his assignments in a complicated scheme, then went down with injury. He flashed potential at times, lets wait two years to call him a bust or not. How many quality players have poor first years? Most, and the steallar rookie year is the exception. Anyone remember how brutal ARod was in his first preseason?

[Joemailman]

I think I stand alone in still thinking Campen is a decent OL coach; look at the players he has and how they have developed.

Actually, you're not alone. Early on, he got a bad rap for failing to "develop" buys like Allan Barbre, Tony Moll and Breno Giacomini. Fact is, those guys just weren't very good.

He deserves a lot of credit for the play of the OL last year with a revolving door at both OT positions.

[Patler]

I think I stand alone in still thinking Campen is a decent OL coach; look at the players he has and how they have developed.


Actually, you're not alone. Early on, he got a bad rap for failing to "develop" buys like Allan Barbre, Tony Moll and Breno Giacomini. Fact is, those guys just weren't very good.

He deserves a lot of credit for the play of the OL last year with a revolving door at both OT positions.

Ya, possibly. But a few years ago, when Campen was under a lot of criticism because Colledge, Spitz, Coston, Moll, Barbre, Giacomini, etc. seemed to be in stalls regarding their development, MM was asked point blank if Campen might be replaced. MM's response was that Campen himself was developing as a coach, and they had to give him the help he needed to achieve what they wanted. To do that, MM said he had asked Philbin to become more directly involved with the O-line because Philbin was so experienced coaching O-lines. So I have to ask, did Campen find his groove, or did the involvement of Philbin improve the results?

I have always felt that Campen was rushed into the top spot coaching O-line. Maybe the coaching talent is there, and a little more guidance from Phibin the past couple years completed his seasoning as a coach. I guess we might know soon enough, because Campen will be on his own starting this fall, with no one else on staff with prior O-line coaching experience.

[woodbuck27]

Ya, possibly. But a few years ago, when Campen was under a lot of criticism because Colledge, Spitz, Coston, Moll, Barbre, Giacomini, etc. seemed to be in stalls regarding their development, MM was asked point blank if Campen might be replaced. MM's response was that Campen himself was developing as a coach, and they had to give him the help he needed to achieve what they wanted. To do that, MM said he had asked Philbin to become more directly involved with the O-line because Philbin was so experienced coaching O-lines. So I have to ask, did Campen find his groove, or did the involvement of Philbin improve the results?

I have always felt that Campen was rushed into the top spot coaching O-line. Maybe the coaching talent is there, and a little more guidance from Phibin the past couple years completed his seasoning as a coach. I guess we might know soon enough, because Campen will be on his own starting this fall, with no one else on staff with prior O-line coaching experience.

Yes.... and today we have an OL that is for all intent, weaker personnel wise, than the one that finished last season. We lost our Pro Bowl Center. We'll have to wait to see how well Scott Wells replacement settles in to replace his contribution to our teams results on offense.

Wait a bit...From Rush DE to OL....Ok. It's the off season.

GO PACKERS !

[MJZiggy]

Yes.... and today we have an OL that is for all intent, weaker personnel wise, than the one that finished last season. We lost our Pro Bowl Center. We'll have to wait to see how well Scott Wells replacement settles in to replace his contribution to our teams results on offense.

Wait a bit...From Rush DE to OL....Ok. It's the off season.

GO PACKERS !

Uhhh...we lost our pro bowl center and replaced him with a pro bowl center. Jeff Saturday has been to five pro bowls. I think it will be fine.

[woodbuck27]

Uhhh...we lost our pro bowl center and replaced him with a pro bowl center. Jeff Saturday has been to five pro bowls. I think it will be fine.

DONG !!!!

Does 'your thinking it' get it done? Does 'thinking it' get anything done MJ?

This one is easy.

In Scott Wells we had it MJ. It was Scott Wells and his Pro Bowl selection as a Green Bay Packer.

NOPE. Sorry MJ. That doesn't sell.

Geting it done is the ticket and Re: Saturday at Center ...it's a wait and see proposition. He's also getting up there in age. How old was Scott Wells? How old is Jeff Saturday?

How many times has Jeff saturdat been a Pro Bowler as a Green bay Packer?

Scott Wells was ALL that.

[MJZiggy]

No, "my thinking it" is not what I'm referring to here. This bit from his Wiki is:
Honors and awards

Saturday has been voted onto five Pro Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Bowl) teams in 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pro_Bowl), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Pro_Bowl), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Pro_Bowl), 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pro_Bowl) and 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Pro_Bowl). For the 2005 and 2007 seasons he was named to the Associated Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) NFL All-Pro First Team.
Saturday also received the "Tuesday Morning Quarterback Non-QB Non-RB NFL MVP Award" from ESPN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESPN) columnist Gregg Easterbrook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Easterbrook) in January 2007.

[woodbuck27]

No, "my thinking it" is not what I'm referring to here. This bit from his Wiki is:
Honors and awards

Saturday has been voted onto five Pro Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Bowl) teams in 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pro_Bowl), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Pro_Bowl), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Pro_Bowl), 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pro_Bowl) and 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Pro_Bowl). For the 2005 and 2007 seasons he was named to the Associated Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) NFL All-Pro First Team.
Saturday also received the "Tuesday Morning Quarterback Non-QB Non-RB NFL MVP Award" from ESPN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESPN) columnist Gregg Easterbrook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Easterbrook) in January 2007.

and .... your point is?

Are you projecting that Jeff Saturdy will not only replace Scott Wells but play at a Pro Bowl selection level as our Center?

[MJZiggy]

and .... your point is?

Are you projecting that Jeff Saturdy will not only replace Scott Wells but play at a Pro Bowl selection level as our Center?

Why wouldn't he? He's been selected to the PB 2005-2010 and was an All-Pro twice. What evidence do you have that he cannot do it?

[Fritz]

Geezuz, Woody, please don't tell me you were a math teacher. If you were, no wonder kids make fun of teachers.

[Pugger]

I better not tell Woody I'm a lady too or he'll be condescending to me also... :-?

[Gunakor]

How many times has Jeff saturdat been a Pro Bowler as a Green bay Packer?

As many times as he's suited up in a Green Bay Packers jersey. How many times has Scott Wells been a Pro Bowler for the St. Louis Rams? You can't hold that against either of them. They are both Pro Bowl centers, doesn't matter what colors they were wearing.

[Joemailman]

I better not tell Woody I'm a lady too or he'll be condescending to me also... :-?

Fix your hair and let the men handle the football talk. :satan:

[woodbuck27]

Geezuz, Woody, please don't tell me you were a math teacher. If you were, no wonder kids make fun of teachers.

Yes I was a math teacher and found teaching math had special rewards. I didn't teach kids. I taught 'adult education' and in a community college.

[woodbuck27]

I better not tell Woody I'm a lady too or he'll be condescending to me also... :-?

As a matter of fact I guessed that you were a Lady Pugger. That was evident to me as your posting style is not tasteless or aggressive.

Lady or man ... in this environment you need to cut the mustard. Not ...need to have it both ways, all the time.

RE: your post and my assumption that I'm condescending to MJZiggy.

That isn't the TRUTH. I'm certainly not considered superior to MJZiggy in any sense of my or any others imagination. MJZiggy does not consider herself inferior to me. I don't consider myself superior to MJZiggy.

You might look at MJZiggy's style of posting. To condesend to her by definition; I would have to feel superior to MJZiggy. Figuratively speaking ...writing (-: .

I merely deserve a right to breathe 'the same air'. I'd enjoy being an equal and not have to put up with disrespect.

I don't begin posts with 'sighs' and uhhh's. Nor do I leap to leveling insulting unfair accusations and make 'hate mongering' accusations for whatever reason. I do NOT laugh at situations when laughter isn't the correct response. I post with respect and try my best to exercise compassion as I come to better understand an issue. I never 'pile on' to any other poster and 'in fat usually feel for anyone that is being obviously oppressed by 'a pile on attitude'of any number of posters. I'm never afraid to defend my position or disengage when I'm 'out to lunch'.

I always have hope that anyone may change for the better. I'm often remiss as to why people must act as they do in terms of contempt for any other poster.

I treat debate as an opportunity to grow. I try too not get personal, yet defend my positions with integrity and manners. I'm no slouch 'in debate'.

I enjoy Packerrats as my Packer HOME and a place to exchange information non-intrusively and non-defensively. Attacks and insults and ridiculour accusations can 'only' breed an environment that isn't healthy. Injustice demands appeal.

Appeal does not stir attack.