Greg Williams - Bounty Audio

[Kiwon]

You can put this one under the heading of "Evidence."

Yep, I'd say that the NFL had reason to suspend him, but I doubt he's the only DC talking this way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnn9kbqQUA&feature=player_embedded

[woodbuck27]

Ohh Boy !

[Joemailman]

You can put this one under the heading of "Evidence."

Yep, I'd say that the NFL had reason to suspend him, but I doubt he's the only DC talking this way.

Perhaps, but I suspect he'll be the last one stupid enough to make a recording of it.

[woodbuck27]

The information on Greg Williams on the Yahoo Sports Report (Roger Silver is the author and then report is based in Silvers interview with a documentry filmmaker name Sean Pamphilon) and being reported on the NFL Network is certainly damning. This is brand new information that has surfaced by reports just today.

Scandalous stuff and what is also coming out is the NO Saints arrogance, in terms of coverups and outright lying.

Greg Williams..."Kill the head and the body will die".

Greg Williams is recorded making damaging remarks RE: 49er players ( WR M. Crabtree, QB A. Smith, RB Gore and TE V. Davis etc.)

Greg Williams has already criticixed his own behaviour and apologized and has stated he will not appeal.

As I write this Roger Goodell and his committee are hearing the appeals of the four other principles. I hope Roger Gooodell doesn't budge.

Update:

Two of the four Saints Brass have been in and out ( GM Loomis and Assist coach Joe Vitt have presented their appeals). Roger Goodell is now with Sean Peyton hearing his appeal presentation.

I'm listening to Saints Assist. HC Joe Vitt now. He was asked by reporters if he's aware that it's the Saints position that before the axe fell. That Greg Williams was about to be FIRED. That it was certainly a fact of awareness that Greg Williams was 'a Rogue Coach'.

Joe Vitt denied any knowledge of that as a fact or.... that Greg Williams was deemed 'a Rogue Coach' by the Saints organization. He shook that question off effectively.

So as I understand it 'officially and publicly' the Saints are not passing all blame onto their former DC Gregg Williams.

I expect that may soon change. I expect that the Saints may be appealing 'in fact' on the grounds that the organization had acted to contain Greg Williams by firing hin two days after the season ended. Recall the San Fran 49ers defeated the Saints in the playoffs. In the yahoo Report it's clear that Greg Williams is still briefing his defensive players to go after certain 49ers players like their starting QB Alex Smith and TE Vernon Davis. he does this before that playoff game with the San Fran 49ers.

The expected grounds of appeal that Greg Williams is 'a Rogue Coach' and was about to get FIRED does not wash.

It was incumbant on the Saints GM, HC and Assist. HC to be welll aware of The NO Saints DC Greg williams tactics. Rogue to them or not as a focus incumbant on the organization to absolutely terminate this reported bounty cash pool reward Program.

The Saints brass didn't stop this program. They must suffer the already announced penaltys.

IMO....Roger Goodell will look bad if he rolls over.

[Kiwon]

Perhaps, but I suspect he'll be the last one stupid enough to make a recording of it.

I doubt seriously that he recorded it. Why would he?

Isn't this probably part of the informant's material provided to the league office?

[mraynrand]

Perhaps, but I suspect he'll be the last one stupid enough to make a recording of it.


Someone's always recording it seems

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/12/11/us/11NIXON1/11NIXON1-articleLarge.jpg

[Smeefers]

He was aware that it was being recorded. There was a guy sitting in on the meeting there because he was doing research on head injuries in the NFL. He had a recording device with him. It's not like this was a surprise.

I just can't believe this is a big deal. I remember a D coach telling us in high school to kill the QB. I believe his exact words were "I want his mother puking in the stands after she sees what you did to him." Do you honestly think the players thought the coach wanted them to actually kill the opposing team? Was the coach saying he literally wanted his players to break Frank Gores neck? Sure he was telling his guys to hit the QB in the chin. If I could get away with it, I would too -- And what I mean by that is if the refs are allowing it during the game. Some officials are stricter than others. I also have no problems with coaches telling players to go after injuries. If a player has an injured body part and are stupid enough to still take the field and the coaches allow it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going for it and trying to get that player even more off his game. Are you telling me if a lineman had a concussion last week, you wouldn't head butt him every chance you got? Is it different for a WR?

I have no issues with his motivational techniques and his language. Where he has the problem is where he obviously offers a cash reward for big hits, which is against the rules. That is the issue and on that point, I think he's guilty as all hell.

[woodbuck27]

I doubt seriously that he recorded it. Why would he?

Isn't this probably part of the informant's material provided to the league office?

The fact is Greg Williams was recorded ( by some fella named Sean Pamphilon, doing a documentry I'm hearing. This recording was made the night before the Saints @ 49ers game. (See the Yahoo Report by Roger Silver for full details).

That recording leaked as reported by Yahoo Sports Roger Silver. I've heard several quotes of the transcript today on the NFL Network. It paints a bad pictire of Greg Williams. His words might make even the tougher of you'cringe'. My interpretation of what Gregg Williams said to his payer that night before the 49ers playoff game. He's clearly arrogant but worse, borderline psychotic.

The language and I don't mean just the expletives are clear in terms of damaging the health of opposition players. Words like concussions and ACL and taking his head etc. are damning.

This is football and last I heard 'a sport' not a WAR.

[sharpe1027]

I also have no problems with coaches telling players to go after injuries.

I have a problem with it. Just because the refs can't see everything, that doesn't make it right. Just because some people are scumbags that doesn't make it right.

I'm not going to rob your house just because the police don't always catch robbers and because other people rob houses. Why, because it is a scumbag move and wrong.

[woodbuck27]

I have a problem with it. Just because the refs can't see everything, that doesn't make it right. Just because some people are scumbags that doesn't make it right.

I'm not going to rob your house just because the police don't always catch robbers and because other people rob houses. Why, because it is a scumbag move and wrong.

+ 3

[Fritz]

He was aware that it was being recorded. There was a guy sitting in on the meeting there because he was doing research on head injuries in the NFL. He had a recording device with him. It's not like this was a surprise.

I just can't believe this is a big deal. I remember a D coach telling us in high school to kill the QB. I believe his exact words were "I want his mother puking in the stands after she sees what you did to him." Do you honestly think the players thought the coach wanted them to actually kill the opposing team? Was the coach saying he literally wanted his players to break Frank Gores neck? Sure he was telling his guys to hit the QB in the chin. If I could get away with it, I would too -- And what I mean by that is if the refs are allowing it during the game. Some officials are stricter than others. I also have no problems with coaches telling players to go after injuries. If a player has an injured body part and are stupid enough to still take the field and the coaches allow it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going for it and trying to get that player even more off his game. Are you telling me if a lineman had a concussion last week, you wouldn't head butt him every chance you got? Is it different for a WR?

I have no issues with his motivational techniques and his language. Where he has the problem is where he obviously offers a cash reward for big hits, which is against the rules. That is the issue and on that point, I think he's guilty as all hell.


Well, did you do your job? Was Mommy puking in the stands, or did you let your coach down, Smeefy?

[Kiwon]

We'll if Greg Williams was this open with media present then the NFL probably has material on him from its own NFL Films archive.

Those cameras and mikes are everywhere these days.

[red]

he's done for life after this. remember he said this after being warned and asked about this kind of stuff a couple times in the past. he flat out said 3 or 4 times to go out and injury a player. he's done, and i hope a lot of the saints defenders that pulled this shit under him are done too

[Kiwon]

Wow, the fallout continues. Even the 49er parents are getting involved.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/04/49ers-father-i-should-never-be-in-room-with-gregg-williams/1
...............................

Another point, notice that this recording is leaked justed as Payton, Loomis, and others are meeting with Goodell to appeal their suspensions. Curious timing.

[Joemailman]

@jasonjwilde we work our entire lives to make it to the NFL. And some guy wants to pay players to hurt people. NOT cool!
In reply to Jason Wilde
23h josh sitton ‏ @jsitton71 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open

@jasonjwilde trying to take someone out of a game or end a career is a chicken shit move!
In reply to Jason Wilde
23h josh sitton ‏ @jsitton71 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open

@jasonjwilde I want to be clear. Our sport is violent and you are supposed to hurt one another, but this guy took it over the top!
In reply to Jason Wilde
23h josh sitton ‏ @jsitton71 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open

@jasonjwilde hope they don't bounty me!
In reply to Jason Wilde
5 Apr josh sitton ‏ @jsitton71 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open

“@bernardshuford: @jsitton71 Holy cow, dude. That guy needs help. Do Packers coaches talk like that to you guys?”hell no
5 Apr josh sitton ‏ @jsitton71 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open

[sheepshead]

He was aware that it was being recorded. There was a guy sitting in on the meeting there because he was doing research on head injuries in the NFL. He had a recording device with him. It's not like this was a surprise.

I just can't believe this is a big deal. I remember a D coach telling us in high school to kill the QB. I believe his exact words were "I want his mother puking in the stands after she sees what you did to him." Do you honestly think the players thought the coach wanted them to actually kill the opposing team? Was the coach saying he literally wanted his players to break Frank Gores neck? Sure he was telling his guys to hit the QB in the chin. If I could get away with it, I would too -- And what I mean by that is if the refs are allowing it during the game. Some officials are stricter than others. I also have no problems with coaches telling players to go after injuries. If a player has an injured body part and are stupid enough to still take the field and the coaches allow it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going for it and trying to get that player even more off his game. Are you telling me if a lineman had a concussion last week, you wouldn't head butt him every chance you got? Is it different for a WR?

I have no issues with his motivational techniques and his language. Where he has the problem is where he obviously offers a cash reward for big hits, which is against the rules. That is the issue and on that point, I think he's guilty as all hell.

The line that's crossed here is a tangible. There was a monetary reward for the result. The result of a guy leaving the game due to injury from the hit. That's a big big difference then a lot of Win One for the Gipper bullshit. Money actually changed hands from this as I understand it. The guy should not see an NFL sideline ever again.

[Pugger]

I just heard a recording of Brian Billick addressing this and he said in his 40 years in football he has never heard a coach specifically talk about going after another player's body part to take him out/or injure an opponent. He found this disturbing and said this kind of talk is NOT found in other lockerrooms.

[Smeefers]

I have a problem with it. Just because the refs can't see everything, that doesn't make it right. Just because some people are scumbags that doesn't make it right.

I'm not going to rob your house just because the police don't always catch robbers and because other people rob houses. Why, because it is a scumbag move and wrong.

Your analogy is wrong. It's more like leaving your windows and doors open with a sign outside that reads "lots of expensive stuff inside, will be gone from 9-5 every day. No Alarm system and neighbors hate me!" Then being surprised when your stuff is gone. Playing injured is STUPID and if a player gets cranked for it, then it's his own fault. Don't act like this game is some playground game. Guys always snicker and talk around what goes on under the pile. No one is unaware of the risks that go into playing.

[Smeefers]

Well, did you do your job? Was Mommy puking in the stands, or did you let your coach down, Smeefy?

No. I sucked at football and rode the pine.

[pbmax]

A target list of injuries is just one step past stupid, but the sanctimony is getting a little deep. Sapp, who took a year off Clifton's career, and Irvin are now claiming they have never heard such of such a thing.

Coaches who have taught defense this way have been around forever as have players who will listen to it. Reggie White acknowledged he purposefully held Brett Favre's arm in a vulnerable position and landed fully on top of him, hoping to injure or damage Favre's effectiveness. White succeeded in partially separating Favre's non-throwing shoulder. the fact that Favre continued to play well was one reason White signed with the Packers the next year.

Albert Haynesworth stomped on Gurode's face several years ago. Haynesworth is several iterations dumber than White. However, White was coached by Buddy White and Haynesworth by Ryan acolytes Fisher/Williams/Schwartz. Albert took the instruction more to heart and had less conscience about it.

Players have targeted other players injuries long before this. Why does anyone believe Belicheck and other coaches refuse to reveal the actual injury involved? Its the same reason Hockey coaches list players with an injured "lower body". Players targeted Aikman and Young's heads. Was it a coincidence that Wayne Simmons blasted the 49er fullback, causing a fumble, who had a cast on his hand/arm in the Packers playoff game at Candlestick Park? Simmons also targeted Brett Jones for some non-traditional coverage in throwing him around like a rag doll in that game. Simmons was one of Fritz Shurmur's favorites. Was it because he was a witty conversationalist? A former player for Shurmur said Fritz would get colorful but not go to the extent of listing injuries. How much more info is necessary to know what to do? Most of the players understand. Not all of them do it even when encouraged. That is when a coach asks for the team to bring in "his" kind of players.

Punishing Williams more for this speech is dumb, since it signifies nothing new. And oddly, there is no mention of the paydays.

The League wants to change the culture of coaching and football to encourage less hits with intent to injure and fewer headshots (and use of the head as an instrument of tackling). Fine. Especially with regard to putting a hat on the ball (or Chuck Cecil missile shots), is bad technique anyway and leads to more injuries. Previous efforts by the NFL (usually after a catastrophe that does not seem present in this case) have pushed the sports coaches in other levels to adopt better policies about hydration and training. Its probably a good thing and the only way the sport survives.

But Josh Sitton (perhaps unknowingly), Sapp and Irvin are being foolish if they think this isn't common among D coaches. Not all of them do it, but even a saint like Joe Gibbs have tolerated it.

[Patler]

Probably the most damning thing in the speech is only there if you see the video. When talking about hitting Smith in the chin, he said; "I've got the first one, I've got the first one" while rubbing his thumb on his index finger, the symbol for being paid. This was after telling everyone there was no bounty program, and after being specifically told to stop if there was one.

Saying to "find out" about a receivers concussion in the first two series sure won't win him any fans in the league office.
Neither will references to taking out Crabtree's ACL.

[Fritz]

The line that's crossed here is a tangible. There was a monetary reward for the result. The result of a guy leaving the game due to injury from the hit. That's a big big difference then a lot of Win One for the Gipper bullshit. Money actually changed hands from this as I understand it. The guy should not see an NFL sideline ever again.

Win one for the Gipper bullshit? In Smeefers's case, it sounds more like "Make mommy puke for the Gipper!"

[woodbuck27]

I have a problem with it. Just because the refs can't see everything, that doesn't make it right. Just because some people are scumbags that doesn't make it right.

I'm not going to rob your house just because the police don't always catch robbers and because other people rob houses. Why, because it is a scumbag move and wrong.

When I watch the way the Saints players ...demonstrating superior listening skills RE: Greg Williams 'Gestapo address/speech' to his defense, the night before that playoff game. Manhandle the 49er offensive players.

It was difficult for me NOT to imagine the game officials were missing (again).

[woodbuck27]

Probably the most damning thing in the speech is only there if you see the video. When talking about hitting Smith in the chin, he said; "I've got the first one, I've got the first one" while rubbing his thumb on his index finger, the symbol for being paid. This was after telling everyone there was no bounty program, and after being specifically told to stop if there was one.

Saying to "find out" about a receivers concussion in the first two series sure won't win him any fans in the league office.
Neither will references to taking out Crabtree's ACL.

Patler the whole pre-game address was absolutely appalling.

My lady went one step better. Mae remarked:

"Eddie ..you know what is actually worse than 'Greg Williams speech'. It's that his players actually bought into it; went into the game and tried their best to deliver on what Greg Williams demanded in his address. " Mae

Hearing that speech made me feel weird. I have never heard anything that bad in the 50 plus years I've followed Pro Sports. I cannot even imagine Greg Williams getting to where he could make suc an ugly/evil speech.


These Saint defensive players are members of the NFLPA and ' brothers ' with the San Francisco 49er's offensive players. How on earth could they possibly stoop to the mentality level to actually try to hurt brothers? Harm fellow Pro's??

In CANADA and in 'the sense of brotherhood' and Unions or Associations.that actual behaviour is absolutely incomprehensible...barbaric.

Mae knows little about football but enought to know this whole issue sucks and 'the players as the bottom line' need to suffer a harsh penalty. I can hear the argument now.

Those.... It's like war arguments and the football players are like soldiers and so must obey orders.

Anyone going there needs a serious reality check.

The NFL is about football NOT barbaric physical domination with empasis on serious opponent injury; destroying career and lives.

[sheepshead]

Win one for the Gipper bullshit? In Smeefers's case, it sounds more like "Make mommy puke for the Gipper!"

The point is, its all words, nothing more. A bounty is entirely different.

[sharpe1027]

Your analogy is wrong. It's more like leaving your windows and doors open with a sign outside that reads "lots of expensive stuff inside, will be gone from 9-5 every day. No Alarm system and neighbors hate me!" Then being surprised when your stuff is gone. Playing injured is STUPID and if a player gets cranked for it, then it's his own fault. Don't act like this game is some playground game. Guys always snicker and talk around what goes on under the pile. No one is unaware of the risks that go into playing.

I don't understand your logic. Are you saying that robbing someones house is not a scumbag move and wrong?

[woodbuck27]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/greej3

Chris Carter calls for lifetime ban on Gregg Williams:

“I believe that Gregg Williams, he shouldn’t be able to coach football any more, and the reason why is because we have given him our best athletes. We have given him the best athletes to coach in the NFL for the last 16 years and he has taught them the worst tactics that you can teach a football player. So, I believe the only penalty that would suffice for this type of crime: he shouldn’t be able to coach any more. It is a privilege for us to be able to play football, and a privilege to play in the NFL, and he has taken the last 15, 16 years of his career, and he has decided to do that with it. I believe that Roger Goodell, his penalty should be: he shouldn’t be able to coach in the NFL any more.” Chris Carter

[gbgary]

:shock: now THAT was something else.

[pbmax]

Patler the whole pre-game address was absolutely appalling.

snip

The NFL is about football NOT barbaric physical domination with empasis on serious opponent injury; destroying career and lives.

Woodbuck, have you ever seen the hit that Chuck Bednarik used to wipe out Frank Gifford? How about Jack Tatum wiping out Darryl Stingley? There are entire highlight packages devoted to these kinds of plays and bounties have been around long before now. Williams might have organized it to a new level, but there is nothing new here. For years crack back and cut blocks were legal in line and both could destroy knees. Chuck Cecil built a career out of being pedestrian safety who acted like a receiver seeking missile whenever possible, then posed for photos with the resulting bloody nose his own facemask gave him when he led with his head.

Players grab testicles in fumble piles and there is a reason coaches are loathe to disclose injuries. Players think Goodell is trying to change the sport not because they are now more barbaric, but because they have coaches that throughout their lives that have taught this kind of behavior. Many players resist this. But many do not.

The Saints got manhandled in that 49er playoff game. If they did go out to execute Williams specific instructions, they failed. Outside of the Vikings game and specifically the hits on Favre, there are very few instances of the Saints taking this approach on the field. Their penalties for these seasons were not out of line with other performances.

Ironically, one of the games I have seen mentioned where it could be interpreted they were playing beyond the normal bounds was the Opening Weekend versus the Packers, in the game where there was supposed to be a bounty on Rodgers. But the Packer writers seemed to dismiss that there was actual game evidence of such a plan. I do not remember any highly questionable hits. I still think the Lions tried to take Rodgers out in Detroit in 2010.

I wonder if players who are not found to have contributed sums to the bounties will see stiff suspensions or fines. The small number of on field incidents might help them.

[pbmax]

Probably the most damning thing in the speech is only there if you see the video. When talking about hitting Smith in the chin, he said; "I've got the first one, I've got the first one" while rubbing his thumb on his index finger, the symbol for being paid. This was after telling everyone there was no bounty program, and after being specifically told to stop if there was one.

Saying to "find out" about a receivers concussion in the first two series sure won't win him any fans in the league office.
Neither will references to taking out Crabtree's ACL.

There is a train of thought that the reason Williams isn't gone is that the NFL needs him to ferret out the behavior or perhaps in challenges to the penalties. I was surprised he was given an indefinite suspension with an option to reapply in one year. I expected his punishment to be guaranteed longer than Payton's.

If Williams did make that motion, then it would connect the bounties with this speech. I wonder of the League knew of the tape prior to now. There was an individual doing a sleep study with the Saints who was interviewed by Dan Patrick this week. He claimed he was interviewed by the League during their investigation and that one of the games they were most interested in was the Packers game in 2011. He claimed never to have heard mention of bounties, but his testimony seemed to hinge not only on what he heard but also his belief in Williams.

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck, have you ever seen the hit that Chuck Bednarik used to wipe out Frank Gifford? How about Jack Tatum wiping out Darryl Stingley? There are entire highlight packages devoted to these kinds of plays and bounties have been around long before now. Williams might have organized it to a new level, but there is nothing new here. For years crack back and cut blocks were legal in line and both could destroy knees. Chuck Cecil built a career out of being pedestrian safety who acted like a receiver seeking missile whenever possible, then posed for photos with the resulting bloody nose his own facemask gave him when he led with his head.

Players grab testicles in fumble piles and there is a reason coaches are loathe to disclose injuries. Players think Goodell is trying to change the sport not because they are now more barbaric, but because they have coaches that throughout their lives that have taught this kind of behavior. Many players resist this. But many do not.

The Saints got manhandled in that 49er playoff game. If they did go out to execute Williams specific instructions, they failed. Outside of the Vikings game and specifically the hits on Favre, there are very few instances of the Saints taking this approach on the field. Their penalties for these seasons were not out of line with other performances.

Ironically, one of the games I have seen mentioned where it could be interpreted they were playing beyond the normal bounds was the Opening Weekend versus the Packers, in the game where there was supposed to be a bounty on Rodgers. But the Packer writers seemed to dismiss that there was actual game evidence of such a plan. I do not remember any highly questionable hits. I still think the Lions tried to take Rodgers out in Detroit in 2010.

I wonder if players who are not found to have contributed sums to the bounties will see stiff suspensions or fines. The small number of on field incidents might help them.

Of course you realize I'm criticle when it comes to anything 'even close to barbaric' and not just ' Brett Favre or Aaron Rodgers ' but anyone that acts like a moron may indulge me in their wicked dance for awhile?

I've been watching football for 5 decades plus. I enjoy football above all pro sports and I love sports.
ie ...I'm excited today at the midway point of THE MASTERS. On top of the 'Leader Board' sits one .....Fred Couples. I'm wondering... will he fare better on Augusta"s Par 5's today and Easter Sunday than he did in a similiar spot and fell short not that long ago.

Watching sports is all about impressions. We watch this sport or game and Eurecka! Something magical happens and we might ie begin to really like that player and begin to follow that player.That's how I became a Green Bay Packer fan back in 1959. Football 'only meant' the Ottawa Rough Riders, Montreal Alouettes,Toronto Argo's, Winnepeg Blue Bombers to me.

Then I became aware of a fella named Y.A. Tittle. I became aware of a place called Green Bay, Wisconsoin. My baseball sports HERO was Henry 'Hank' Aaron. I like Eddie Matthews. Aaron and Matthews and Warren Spahn. I was a Milwaukee Brave fan and my loyalty to Aaron will never die.

Milwaukee Braves (Loyalty>>> Atlanta Braves)>>>Green Bay Packers (Loyalty 1959 >>> till I die)>>> Brett Favre (Loyalty)>>> Packer Forums (Packerrats LOYALTY) >>> Aaron Rodgers (LOYALTY).

The impressions I got of the NO Saints, and the ugly manner in which that Saints defense, on that day (NFC Championship Game - 2009 Season) performed Vs Brett Favre. Will certainly be etched in my mind forever. Etched how pbmax? It'll be forever etched in my mind as the most brutal combined effort to destroy a QB (Brett Favre) that I ever want to see again. I never want to see another NFL player suffer as Favre did so courageously that day. It was nothing short of brutal. I've paid attention to the NO Saints since.

I believe in karma. I know that BAD Guys finish last. Now we are observing'the Bad Guys' squirm. It looks so good on them.

Yes I watched NO Saints VS San Francisco 49ers this past playoffs. I watched with real interest. I'm inclined so. I saw the way the Saints defense played and again I wasn't impressed with how they took their man to the groung.This was a dirty team.This team is getting it's dues 'just what is demanded'of foul play.

The 'no Saints' players should get there's certainly and as well. I look for harsh penalty's on Saints defensive players. The NFL certainly has loads of ammunition and all it needs for a careful analysis of 'the dynamic outcome' of Greg Williams sicko ways. The way the SAINT players actually delivered such cheap shots.

Now having stressed my position.

I find it's somewhat ironic as a Packer fan (member of Packerrats) that one of those Saints players from that infamous NFC Championship game Vs the Minnesota Vikings has been signed as a Green Bay Packer. I can observe this players ability to squirm. I will see how this players hateful to moronic manner back then, will come forward to see his possible due punishment.

Re: that player.

a) I can wonder why? the Green Bay Packers have to be a part of that punishment?

b) Why would our GM sign him? Has this player 'really' cleaned up his act?

It's again (see Scott Wells) another wait and see that could have been simply... avoided.

GO PACKERS !

[pbmax]

Speaking of the 49ers, isn't their D coordinator Foge Fazio? And wasn't he the coordinator in Minnesota for a while? Was it his teams that always seemed to be taking cheap shots at players in the pile during Packer games? And this caused Rivera and Winters to run down the field to "clean off" the pile during or after a tackle? I seem to remember him as one of a few coordinators who encouraged some extra-curricular stuff, but my memory on it is fuzzy.

The other coach I know that everyone complains about (outside of Alex Gibbs and cut blocks) is John Teerlinck.

[Pugger]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8281ea74/Did-Gregg-Williams-go-rogue

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck, have you ever seen the hit that Chuck Bednarik used to wipe out Frank Gifford? How about Jack Tatum wiping out Darryl Stingley? There are entire highlight packages devoted to these kinds of plays and bounties have been around long before now. Williams might have organized it to a new level, but there is nothing new here. For years crack back and cut blocks were legal in line and both could destroy knees. Chuck Cecil built a career out of being pedestrian safety who acted like a receiver seeking missile whenever possible, then posed for photos with the resulting bloody nose his own facemask gave him when he led with his head.

Players grab testicles in fumble piles and there is a reason coaches are loathe to disclose injuries. Players think Goodell is trying to change the sport not because they are now more barbaric, but because they have coaches that throughout their lives that have taught this kind of behavior. Many players resist this. But many do not.

The Saints got manhandled in that 49er playoff game. If they did go out to execute Williams specific instructions, they failed. Outside of the Vikings game and specifically the hits on Favre, there are very few instances of the Saints taking this approach on the field. Their penalties for these seasons were not out of line with other performances.

Ironically, one of the games I have seen mentioned where it could be interpreted they were playing beyond the normal bounds was the Opening Weekend versus the Packers, in the game where there was supposed to be a bounty on Rodgers. But the Packer writers seemed to dismiss that there was actual game evidence of such a plan. I do not remember any highly questionable hits. I still think the Lions tried to take Rodgers out in Detroit in 2010.

I wonder if players who are not found to have contributed sums to the bounties will see stiff suspensions or fines. The small number of on field incidents might help them.

and YES ..... this too pbmax:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8281ea74/Did-Gregg-Williams-go-rogue

and RE: Chuck Cecil.I posted on the feroscity of this Packer player just this week I believe. I also posted that Vince Lombardi would have gone ballistic if any of his defensive players played it over the top dirty. I watched Lombardi's entire career as OUR Legendary HC. No HC ever demanded as much from his players and loved the game of football more.

The game of football and 'sportsmanship' trumps winning football games at all cost.

I will always remember this: "Favre is down and rolling on his back now."

That was sadly pathetic and a blemish on the NFL until it is clearly, totally and severely dealt with:

To ensure this sort of not acceptable unsportsmanship must be hugely penalized as a deterrent is common sense pbmax. As Packer fans we might understand that in certain real terms. The question I would ask myself if I was NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is:

RE: Anthony Hargrove and the $25 K$ for his over enthusiastic and moronic reaction to the state (he as a NO Saint) inflicted on Brett Favre.

Was that fine enough now that Goodell has a clearer picture after a concerted effort to coverup 'the Bounty Program'?

Does that action against 'our own' Anthony Hargrove (Ohh Boy !) exempt him from further penalty?

I'm 'only' left to assume that Green Bay Packer GM Ted Thompson thought that would be the case. That Anthony Hargrove would suffer no further action. Maybe Ted Thompson hasn't been paying attention?

I'm at such a disadvantage as 'just' a Packer fan to understand Ted Thompson. As a human being I'm well aware that even Ted Thompson will error.

GO Ted Thompson>>> GO PACKERS !

[pbmax]

Someone's always recording it seems

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/12/11/us/11NIXON1/11NIXON1-articleLarge.jpg

Most wounds are, indeed, self inflicted.

[Fritz]

"In CANADA and in 'the sense of brotherhood' and Unions or Associations.that actual behaviour is absolutely incomprehensible...barbaric."

I wonder if this is why the CFL is not as popular as the NFL?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Chris Carter calls for lifetime ban on Gregg Williams:

[I] “I believe that Gregg Williams, he shouldn’t be able to coach football any more, and the reason why is because we have given him our best athletes. We have given him the best athletes to coach in the NFL for the last 16 years and he has taught them the worst tactics that you can teach a football player.

Nah. If Michael Vick can be rehabilitated, so can Gregg Williams. Let him look for a job after a year on the outside looking in. Let some team hire him as a linebackers coach, and he can start anew. I expect he will see the error of his ways after such a thorough public shaming. His behavior was indefensible and has embarassed himself and his family.

[pbmax]

and YES ..... this too pbmax:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8281ea74/Did-Gregg-Williams-go-rogue

and RE: Chuck Cecil.I posted on the feroscity of this Packer player just this week I believe. I also posted that Vince Lombardi would have gone ballistic if any of his defensive players played it over the top dirty. I watched Lombardi's entire career as OUR Legendary HC. No HC ever demanded as much from his players and loved the game of football more.

The game of football and 'sportsmanship' trumps winning football games at all cost.

This thing to ensure this sort of not acceptable unsportsmanship must be hugely penalized as a deterrent is common sense pbmax. As Packer fans we might understand that in certain real terms. The question I would ask myself if I was NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is:

RE: Anthony Hargrove and the $25 K$ for his over enthusiastic and moronic reaction to the state (he as a NO Saint) inflicted on Brett Favre.

Was that fine enough now that Goodell has a clearer picture after a concerted effort to coverup 'the Bounty Program'?

Does that action against 'our own' Anthony Hargrove exempt him from further penalty?

I'm 'only' left to assume that Green Bay Packer GM Ted Thompson thought that would be the case. That Anthony Hargrove would suffer no further action. Maybe Ted Thompson hasn't been paying attention?

I'm at such a disadvantage as 'just' a Packer fan to understand Ted Thompson. As a human being I'm well aware that even Ted Thompson will error.

GO Ted Thompson>>> GO PACKERS !

I could be missing the report, but Hargrove was fined $5,000 for lifting and driving a ball carrier into the ground versus the Vikings. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/29/saints-rack-up-even-more-fines/

I simply get the feeling woodbuck that you are whistling past the graveyard on this. That you do not see the connection between football, coaching, players and this kind of organized violence. My argument is not about whether it is correct or morally acceptable to engage in these practices. The point is that Gregg Williams comes from a long line of coaches and players who have been celebrated and rewarded for this kind of behavior. Stopping it will be a good thing. To lay it all at the feet of Gregg Williams or the Saints is naive.

One of Lombardi's players, as Head Coach, put a player into his lineup for the Packers with a hit list drawn up on his towel. He proceeded to finish what was left of Jim McMahon's career. McMahon had been previously injured. Martin simply made it worse.

Reggie White admitted to intentionally dropping his weight on Brett Favre in such a way (while pinning his arm) as to damage his shoulder and render him ineffective.

Williams is guilty of turning the violence into an organized, pay for gratuitous hits scheme. The rest of football is guilty of tolerating this behavior for decades.

[woodbuck27]

"In CANADA and in 'the sense of brotherhood' and Unions or Associations.that actual behaviour is absolutely incomprehensible...barbaric."

I wonder if this is why the CFL is not as popular as the NFL?

Fritz.The CFL is more popular in Canada then the NFL.

Why do you imagine that the NFL game is more watched in my country? What's your source? Have you had the privalege of living in Canada?

Canadians LOVE the CFL. Canadians are famous for their LOTALTY and GREAT looks.

a) The CFL is far more exciting to watch. There are many more 'BIG PLAYS' because the greatest talent lands in the NFL making the canadian game of football more wide open thus ecciting. Outcomes are less predictable with one team leading by 10-14 points or more entering the fourth quarter.

b) The product on the field is superior in terms of 'the game' itself. The officiating in the CFL is considered superior more professional then we have to put up with 'as NFL fans' in an all blunders cancel one another out ... hope.

c) The greatest party in Canada is the week of the Grey Cup. The Grey Cup is a BIG WEEK in CANADA; while 'the Super Bowl' is a big day for Canadians.

I could go on with more.

[pbmax]

Speaking of Hargrove, the Lions and Schwartz were trying to sign him after his 2009 season. And Jim Washburn (former Fisher/Williams/Schwatz) disciple and Titan D line coach was in Philly the year he was signed there.

[woodbuck27]

Nah. If Michael Vick can be rehabilitated, so can Gregg Williams. Let him look for a job after a year on the outside looking in. Let some team hire him as a linebackers coach, and he can start anew. I expect he will see the error of his ways after such a thorough public shaming. His behavior was indefensible and has embarassed himself and his family.

Dam ! There now...I'm toast.

I cannot help but 'soften'... seeing my long lost brother post such compassion. Are you going to check out Fred Couples at the MASTERS today?

[RashanGary]

The NFL has been this way for a long time. Like Smeefers said, it's not all too uncommon for coaches to promote brutality. The Packers have been giving game balls for the big hit of the day for a long time.

The difference now is the NFL wants an 18 game season and they're doing everything they can to show players it's going to be a safer league and that they can handle the extra games. I truly believe the NFL is cracking down on brutality so they can get more games and more money.

Clay Matthews is our most brutal player and he's also our favorite defensive player in a long time. Whether they say it out loud or not, the great defensive players play to destroy the opponent.

Greg Williams would not be in trouble 10 years ago. He'd be one of the most highly sought after defensive coaches in the game. Today, with the NFL money hungry for extra games, it's a travesty.

I'm softening up in my old age. I'm not as big of a fan of the brutality as I was, but if there comes a day when it's too much for me, I'm not going to blame football. I'll find another sport to follow.

Gladiator sports have been going on for a long, long time. Unfortunately a lot of people like it and a lot of people like to do it. It is what it is.

[Joemailman]

Comments from some former Packers on the Williams situation. Williams is not getting support.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/146536215.html


DT Gilbert Brown (Packers 1993-99, 2001-03) --- “Obviously our guys were not that way. We had guys who tried to motivate in a positive way. In the heat of the battle, in the heat of conversation, when they’re trying to motivate, it was nothing compared to what this guy was doing. …There never was a bounty or something trying to hurt you. Our terminology was every time the quarterback’s standing there, you’re going to hit him. Let him know that you’re there. You have to get hits on the quarterback but we never talked about taking out his ACL or taking heads off. Our job was just to get hits on the quarterback.”

[Harlan Huckleby]

Are you going to check out Fred Couples at the MASTERS today?

I'm not much of a tennis fan.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Clay Matthews is our most brutal player and he's also our favorite defensive player in a long time.

I'd have to with Eric Walden, particularly playing in space. Brutal.

[pbmax]

The NFL is also trying to lay down a firewall against lawsuits related to concussions and ill effects after player's career end.

The unfortunate part is that that researchers have made a determination that so far, the players most likely to suffer from the known effects of head trauma, are among the least likely to get involved in the spectacular hits downfield (or on the QB) that scream out concussion.

The bulk of the trauma that researchers have been able to document comes on the LOS, play after play, of lineman and backers running into people at close proximity. Its some of the mildest force on the field, but the repetitive nature may be the trigger later on.

If this research were to hold up, then looking at the rules of formation might be the way to go. And High Schools might regret outlawing the A-11 offense.

[woodbuck27]

I'm not much of a tennis fan.

Ohh Boy !

Antway it was too good... 'the drama' and Bubba Watson taking the Green Jacket.

In tennis the Champs take home crystal serving platters. Golf 'Jackets' Tennis 'serving platters'.

Harlan? Are you a fan of: Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader?

[Smeefers]

I don't understand your logic. Are you saying that robbing someones house is not a scumbag move and wrong?

Are you saying someone who advertises that their stuff is unguarded and there for the taking is responsible behavior? My problem is that there's a general feeling out there that there's only one side responsible for these actions. I agree that it's a scumbag move, but I disagree with the premise that going after injured players is unexpected or wrong. Most people speed. It's almost accepted here in Wisconsin that you can go 5 miles over the limit without getting pulled over. Everyone also knows that the faster you drive, the more likely accidents are. The difference between going 25 and 30 can be the difference between clipping a dude who walks out between a pair of cars and not. Sure, it's a scumbag move to speed in a residential neighborhood, but it's also the dude who walks out from between some cars' fault as well.

My problem is the bounty, the cash portion involved. That's like driving down the side walk, swerving to hit specific pedestrians.

[pbmax]

DeAngelo Hall thinks injuries are fair game for a hit during the game. At least publicly, when discussing a rival. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/08/williams-remarks-brings-injury-reports-back-into-focus/

LeRoy Butler sees no slippery slope when coordinators used to say "cut of the head and the body dies" instead of "Steve Young has a broken fibula". http://www.jsonline.com/sports/walking-a-fine-line-in-pregame-talks-i14tdp0-146559685.html

From the same JSO article, Chidi Ahanotu says thier defensive turnaround in Tampa occurred when Asst Coaches Marinelli, Edwards and Smith arrived with Dungy. Their motivational techniques changed the culture to one of "[e]xactly that swag. We were trained killers. We were foaming at the mouth. We're trying to get you, brother."

He also said:


Ahanotu wanted to injure players, sure. He wanted the other team's best players out of the game - "Whatever, a broken finger, his thumb, something. That's what we had to do. I'm trying to hurt guys." And several of his coaches used the same "take the head off the snake" battle cry Williams did.

But as Ahanotu's voice speeds up, he stops himself. There is a line. ACLs and concussions are too far. On five teams, he never heard a coach tell a player to go after someone's head, someone's knee.

By the players own admission and actions, they are trying to hurt and send players out of the game with injuries. This behavior is acceptable. But according to the press and NFL, reading from the publicly available injury list can not be done in a locker room or by a coach. No one may consider this information (except DeAngelo Hall of course).

Goodell is treating a symptom here, not the cause.

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/09/liability-concerns-may-prevent-league-from-allowing-williams-to-coach-again/

Liability concerns may prevent league from allowing Williams to coach again

Posted by Mike Florio on April 9, 2012, 2:04 PM EDT

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/08/williams-remarks-brings-injury-reports-back-into-focus/

Williams’ remarks brings injury reports back into focus

Posted by Mike Florio on April 8, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/08/leroy-butler-thinks-theres-a-fine-line-in-pregame-speeches/

LeRoy Butler thinks there’s a fine line in pregame speeches

Posted by Josh Alper on April 8, 2012, 10:21 AM EDT

[Fritz]

Typical of the NFL to find a scapegoat (Williams) in order not to have to confront the essentially brutal nature of the game. On the one hand, the NFL goes out of its way to emphasize the hyper-masculinity of the game, featuring "bone-jarring hits" and such during "highlights" from games, but on the other hand the NFL pretends there are clear, easily-observable boundaries.

They'd like to have it both ways. And to get to that end, they need scapegoats to stand in, like scapegoats do, for the real problems, which then can remain blissfully hidden as the NFL rakes in gajillions of dollars.

[Pugger]

There is a fine line between applying big hits and paying players extra coin for purposely injuring players. Going after ACL's and concussions can threaten players' careers. Players do get hurt in this game but it is sick to headhunt others. Gregg Williams crossed that line and will no doubt never coach again.

[sharpe1027]

Are you saying someone who advertises that their stuff is unguarded and there for the taking is responsible behavior?

No.


My problem is that there's a general feeling out there that there's only one side responsible for these actions. I agree that it's a scumbag move, but I disagree with the premise that going after injured players is unexpected or wrong.

So scumbag moves are not wrong? I think you're splitting hairs pretty damn thin. I said nothing about it being unexpected.


Most people speed. It's almost accepted here in Wisconsin that you can go 5 miles over the limit without getting pulled over. Everyone also knows that the faster you drive, the more likely accidents are. The difference between going 25 and 30 can be the difference between clipping a dude who walks out between a pair of cars and not. Sure, it's a scumbag move to speed in a residential neighborhood, but it's also the dude who walks out from between some cars' fault as well.

I don't really equate driving 5 miles over the speed limit to intentionally trying to injure someone. Driving 5 miles over the speed limit might increase likelihood of accidents, but they are still accidents, not intentional acts. Now if your driving instructor taught you to swerve to hit pedestrians, your analogy might be a little closer. :)

End of the day, I don't think a coach should be excused for teaching players to injure other players. I don't give a damn if the opposing player is somewhat injured. It is wrong in, my opinion. You disagree. I think your an unethical bastard for disagreeing, but that's just my personal opinion. ;)

[woodbuck27]

Typical of the NFL to find a scapegoat (Williams) in order not to have to confront the essentially brutal nature of the game. On the one hand, the NFL goes out of its way to emphasize the hyper-masculinity of the game, featuring "bone-jarring hits" and such during "highlights" from games, but on the other hand the NFL pretends there are clear, easily-observable boundaries.

They'd like to have it both ways. And to get to that end, they need scapegoats to stand in, like scapegoats do, for the real problems, which then can remain blissfully hidden as the NFL rakes in gajillions of dollars.

Nope ! The word 'scapegoat' does NOT apply here.

Thinking of 'Greg Williams' and the word ... 'GOAT' ... does.

[woodbuck27]

No.



So scumbag moves are not wrong? I think you're splitting hairs pretty damn thin. I said nothing about it being unexpected.



I don't really equate driving 5 miles over the speed limit to intentionally trying to injure someone. Driving 5 miles over the speed limit might increase likelihood of accidents, but they are still accidents, not intentional acts. Now if your driving instructor taught you to swerve to hit pedestrians, your analogy might be a little closer. :)

End of the day, I don't think a coach should be excused for teaching players to injure other players. I don't give a damn if the opposing player is somewhat injured. It is wrong in, my opinion. You disagree. I think your an unethical bastard for disagreeing, but that's just my personal opinion. ;)

Whoa ! Calm down men. It's being taken care of ..... PROPERLY.

[sharpe1027]

Whoa ! Calm down men. It's being taken care of ..... PROPERLY.

I am calm. Lighten up Francis.

[pbmax]

I am calm. Lighten up Francis.

Your going on the list Winger.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Typical of the NFL to find a scapegoat (Williams) in order not to have to confront the essentially brutal nature of the game. On the one hand, the NFL goes out of its way to emphasize the hyper-masculinity of the game, featuring "bone-jarring hits" and such during "highlights" from games, but on the other hand the NFL pretends there are clear, easily-observable boundaries.

They'd like to have it both ways. And to get to that end, they need scapegoats to stand in, like scapegoats do, for the real problems, which then can remain blissfully hidden as the NFL rakes in gajillions of dollars.

While I believe that Williams got what he deserved, there's a kernal of truth to Fritz's point. The NFL has glorified this type of "bone-jarring" play for years and now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. They are now going to have to against decades of promoting this type of play and some coaches and players are going to have to pay for it.

[woodbuck27]

Your going on the list Winger.

Schindlers list ... GREAT movie. (-:

[woodbuck27]

I am calm. Lighten up Francis.


The name is Edwin.

[Smeefers]

I am calm. Lighten up Francis.

Agreed. We're talking like adults to disagree on a topic. It's a simple difference. He thinks I'm an unethical bastard because I have no problem taking advantage of injured players and doing the most to win. He wants to win too, just not at all costs and I think that's not a very realistic way to look at things. That's what it boils down to, all reasoning aside, and we're not going to convince the other person that we're right and they're wrong.

[sharpe1027]

Agreed. We're talking like adults to disagree on a topic. It's a simple difference. He thinks I'm an unethical bastard because I have no problem taking advantage of injured players and doing the most to win. He wants to win too, just not at all costs and I think that's not a very realistic way to look at things. That's what it boils down to, all reasoning aside, and we're not going to convince the other person that we're right and they're wrong.

Agreed. The unethical bastard comment was 1) a joke and 2) not just about taking advantage of injured players. I don't mind running the ball straight at a DL with a bad ankle or blitzing a QB that can't move because he's hurt. I just think it crosses the line when you specifically trying to cause significant injuries.

I don't disagree that it does happen and I'm not all that surprised someone finally got caught. There are huge sums of money at stake and it is extremely competitive both for players and coaches. I just don't agree that it is an acceptable thing to do. Just because I understand why it happens, that doesn't make it right in my book.

[mraynrand]

While I believe that Williams got what he deserved, there's a kernal of truth to Fritz's point. The NFL has glorified this type of "bone-jarring" play for years and now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. They are now going to have to against decades of promoting this type of play and some coaches and players are going to have to pay for it.

The bone jarring plays are OK, they've just imposed some restrictions. The issue here is deliberate attempts at injury, with a bounty. The two are largely non-overlapping.

[SnakeLH2006]

Fuck...Snake would hit anyone 4 enuff cash.

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/16/nflpa-knew-about-contents-of-williams-audio-before-tapes-were-released/

NFLPA knew about contents of Williams audio before tapes were released

Posted by Mike Florio on April 16, 2012, 7:34 AM EDT

"Although the fact that Fujita knew about the contents of the tape will spark speculation that Fujita was the so-called “mediator” who ultimately gave Pamphilon the green light to release the audio over the objections of former Saints special-teamer Steve Gleason,

Mortensen explains that the NFLPA was ..... “somewhat disappointed” by the fact that the tapes were released, since the fact that the league didn’t know about the tape gave the union a strategic advantage in connection with the efforts to minimize or prevent player suspensions." FR. Story

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/15/sean-pamphilon-should-tread-lightly-when-making-demands/

Sean Pamphilon should tread lightly when making demands

Posted by Mike Florio on April 15, 2012, 10:19 PM EDT

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/16/goodell-wont-submit-to-interview-to-get-williams-tapes/

GOODELL WON'T SUBMIT TO INTERVIEW TO GET Greg WILLIAMS TAPES.

[pbmax]

The filmmaker is overplaying his hand. He's gotten enough pub for his movie, just let it go buddy.

[Fritz]

Fuck...Snake would hit anyone 4 enuff cash.

Your own mudder, Snakey?

[SnakeLH2006]

Your own mudder, Snakey?

How bout Drew? She's growing on me Fritz. ;-)