Two DE's that are NOT one-dimensional!!

[RashanGary]

Jared Crick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elVL0fLDdT0
Derek Wolfe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsmdwFcPyg


Wolfe looks a little more prototypical. . . . Absolutely can't believe he's being looked at as a 4th round pick. Looks like a 1st or 2nd to me. I'm going off production numbers, athletic ability and watching them on youtube. . .

If a guy doesn't get sacks in college, I disregard them
If he passes that, and he's not very athletic, I disregard them
If he passes both of those, I watch youtube. I've watched enough now, I know a slug when I see one. These two are tough in the trenches and when they disengage, they close. QB's don't get away from these two.

I'll bet both of these guys get drafted higher than the draft sites have them going.

If a guy produces like a beast, is as athletic as a beast and looks like a beast when he plays. . . . He's probably a beast.

[Bretsky]

JH...you were spot on with some of your draft predictions last year; I hope you hang around more in here and add some Jame Carpenter like sleepers

[Lurker64]

If you're talking about day 2 or later guys, absolutely Wole or Crick fit the bill.

But if you're looking for day 1 DEs that aren't one dimensional, those aren't the guys I'd name. I'd rather have Cox, Still, Brockers, Worthy, or Reyes than any of them. None of those guys are one dimensional either.

After those 7, your best bet for a 5-tech that can do it all is probably Akiem Hicks on day 3. He's raw (played in Canada), but he's got great tools.

[Bretsky]

Just browsed at Gil Brandt's top 100 and Crick is 71

[Lurker64]

Just browsed at Gil Brandt's top 100 and Crick is 71

That's about right. He's a top of the third round talent, but he fits the slot at #59 if there's no better value.

[Joemailman]

Just browsed at Gil Brandt's top 100 and Crick is 71

He has McLellin at 41 which is almost exactly where Brooks Reed was taken last year. Kendall Reyes is at 36. It's all coming together if TT can trade down and then up in the 2nd. :clap:

Also noticed that Brandt has Kirk Cousins and Brock Osweiler at 34-35. TT might find a trading partner if some team wants to trade up to make sure they get one of those guys.

[pbmax]

PFW has Crick with a fourth round grade (4C) at DE and Wolfe with a 3rd round grade (3A) at DT.

[Farley Face]

Jared Crick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elVL0fLDdT0
Derek Wolfe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsmdwFcPyg


Wolfe looks a little more prototypical. . . . Absolutely can't believe he's being looked at as a 4th round pick. Looks like a 1st or 2nd to me. I'm going off production numbers, athletic ability and watching them on youtube. . .

If a guy doesn't get sacks in college, I disregard them
If he passes that, and he's not very athletic, I disregard them
If he passes both of those, I watch youtube. I've watched enough now, I know a slug when I see one. These two are tough in the trenches and when they disengage, they close. QB's don't get away from these two.

I'll bet both of these guys get drafted higher than the draft sites have them going.

If a guy produces like a beast, is as athletic as a beast and looks like a beast when he plays. . . . He's probably a beast.

I like Wolfe as well. Hope he is there for us at the end of the third at pick #90.

[Lurker64]

The whole "I don't look at people who don't get stats" argument is ridiculous, since that puts a huge onus on what sort of scheme and position a guy played in college, rather than the scheme and position a guy will play in the NFL. I mean, if a guy is asked to read two gaps, he's going to have fewer sacks and TFLs than a guy who's just told to get up field.

I mean, our leading pass rusher got more sacks in his rookie year than he did in four years at USC (Clay Matthews had 5 sacks in his entire college career.)

If you're going to look at numbers sacks, tackles, etc. are not the numbers you want to look at. I mean, Jarius Wynn only had 4 fewer sacks last year than Cullen Jenkins had in 2010, which is not indicative of the dropoff at that position.

[KYPack]

You got it, Lurk.

In Capers 3-4, the ends one gap, but they play like tackles. The RDE we get in '12 has got to be stout. 80% of your pass rush comes from the OLB's, not the DE's in Capers scheme.

[Fritz]

Well, are Crick and Wolfe "stout"? Do they fit the bill for a DE in the 3-4?

[Pugger]

The whole "I don't look at people who don't get stats" argument is ridiculous, since that puts a huge onus on what sort of scheme and position a guy played in college, rather than the scheme and position a guy will play in the NFL. I mean, if a guy is asked to read two gaps, he's going to have fewer sacks and TFLs than a guy who's just told to get up field.

I mean, our leading pass rusher got more sacks in his rookie year than he did in four years at USC (Clay Matthews had 5 sacks in his entire college career.)

If you're going to look at numbers sacks, tackles, etc. are not the numbers you want to look at. I mean, Jarius Wynn only had 4 fewer sacks last year than Cullen Jenkins had in 2010, which is not indicative of the dropoff at that position.

Often QB pressures can be just as valuable as a sack.

[woodbuck27]

Well, are Crick and Wolfe "stout"? Do they fit the bill for a DE in the 3-4?

The fellow that seems 'all the rage' on this forum now. This fella (look below) is IMO, STOUT.

It's looking to me that TT would be smart to trade down from pick #28 and then trade up from Pick #59. I want QUALITY over quantity.

The draft is solid this season and players ranked in the TOP 50 are good prospects. I believe we need the best talented defensive platers that Ted thompson can secure. I want TT to certainly go 'D' with his first two picks. I see the TOP 15 or so every day on NFL Network. To gleen and salivate over the rest I need to watch video on Youtube or use some other service to get any reasonable sense for a certain college player.

I believe TT will have an outstanding draft if he gets some cooperation.

I do like this young man:

Shea McClellin Boise State DE Superman ! 5:00 Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFVe8dxfok (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFVe8dxfok)

Draftscouts.com ...Ranked #3 of 189 OLB's ... Position 2...DE.

6 foot 3 inchs and 260 lbs.

40 Time 4.63 Sec. Low 40 @ 4.54 ; Hi 40 @ 4.75

Projected as Round 1-2.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...012&genpos=OLB (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=70853&draftyear=2012&genpos=OLB)

[pbmax]

Well, are Crick and Wolfe "stout"? Do they fit the bill for a DE in the 3-4?

Wolfe would seem to be stouter than Crick. Wolfe is 6'5" 295and 33 1/4" arms, Crick is 6'4" 279 and 32" arms. If you were to hire Victor Frankenstein to build you a 3-4 DE, the resulting project would spec like Wolfe. Well, more like Wolfe than Crick.

You can see in Justin's videos whether that translates on the field or not.

[pbmax]

The fellow that seems 'all the rage' on this forum now. This fella (look below) is IMO, STOUT.


http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...012&genpos=OLB (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=70853&draftyear=2012&genpos=OLB)

He may be stout but he is also going to play OLB for the Packers if he gets drafted, not DE.

[woodbuck27]

If you're talking about day 2 or later guys, absolutely Wole or Crick fit the bill.

But if you're looking for day 1 DEs that aren't one dimensional, those aren't the guys I'd name. I'd rather have Cox, Still, Brockers, Worthy, or Reyes than any of them. None of those guys are one dimensional either.

After those 7, your best bet for a 5-tech that can do it all is probably Akiem Hicks on day 3. He's raw (played in Canada), but he's got great tools.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1118967-2012-nfl-mock-draft-2-round-projection-four-weeks-prior-to-draft-day

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/mock-drafts

My analysis based in MOCK's I see and that change frequently: (-:

GM Ted Thompson would have to trade up 'a ton of picks' to secure Fletcher Cox DT Mississippi State.He'll be gone before mid first round.

Whitney Mercilus DE, Illinois and Michael Brockers DT, LSU will likely be gone by pick #28. Jerel Worthy DT, Michigan State might be there at #28 but that's sketchy. Kendall Reyes DT, Connecticut will be drafted in round two before the middle of round 2.

My Question for you Lurker64:

If you were going to use Pick #28 ? Do you like Nick Perry DE/OLB USC if he was available? How about Courtney Upshaw, OLB, Alabama ?

[woodbuck27]

He may be stout but he is also going to play OLB for the Packers if he gets drafted, not DE.

His size and speed make him a fit at OLB. This prospect Shea McLellin loves to play football.I mean he's keen and in the game.

I enjoyed seeing his motor but I recall also enjoying AJ Hawk play in College.The thing we see is this straight ahed power and speed combining on some plays to get pressure on a QB and sometimes strip the ball or sack that QB but i also see these fellows completly trapped tothe side of a play.I want to see the prospect be able to drop into coverage and possibly make plays doing that.

As I recall Hawk in College he was fine straight ahead and on sideline pursiut. He didn't show drop coverage (again) as I recall watching him on video.

I'm at a certain disadvantage simply using the internet for analysis.

GO PACK GO !

[Fritz]

If I recall correctly, Justin Harrell was the prototypical size for DE in the 3-4. What a shame he got hurt that last time. I really thought he was going to make it.

[woodbuck27]

Wolfe would seem to be stouter than Crick. Wolfe is 6'5" 295and 33 1/4" arms, Crick is 6'4" 279 and 32" arms. If you were to hire Victor Frankenstein to build you a 3-4 DE, the resulting project would spec like Wolfe. Well, more like Wolfe than Crick.

You can see in Justin's videos whether that translates on the field or not.

I watched Crick and he's not bad but something about him doesn't get me studderin' hot to have him in the Green n' Gold. I'm going to watch Wolfe right now and compare the two... based on these LINKS.

Lend my humble Packer fan perspective.

[Lurker64]

The really troubling thing about Crick is that if you watch Nebraska games when he was healthy (not youtube highlights, but actual games) he spends an inordinate amount of time on the ground. There is absolutely nothing positive that a defensive lineman can do from a prone position, so that definitely makes you worry. Playing with a DL on the ground is like playing with 10 guys.

[woodbuck27]

I watched Crick and he's not bad but something about him doesn't get me studderin' hot to have him in the Green n' Gold. I'm going to watch Wolfe right now and compare the two... based on these LINKS.

Lend my humble Packer fan perspective.

OK I'm back and Is it just me or is it obvious:

Derek Wolfe Over Jared Crick by alot. Derek Wolfe looks awesome

This too helps me to lean more to Derek Wolfe. He was 2011 Big East Defensive Player Of The Year.

DT DEREK WOLFE, Cincinnati = Nice pick for some team. Then it's another wait and see.

Where is he when TT's is on the clock? I like OLB Courtney Upshaw, Alabama as a realistic prospect. I like USCs DE Nick Perry but he'll be gome before #28.

TT is going to pick a solid pass rusher.

[RashanGary]

The whole "I don't look at people who don't get stats" argument is ridiculous, since that puts a huge onus on what sort of scheme and position a guy played in college, rather than the scheme and position a guy will play in the NFL. I mean, if a guy is asked to read two gaps, he's going to have fewer sacks and TFLs than a guy who's just told to get up field.

I mean, our leading pass rusher got more sacks in his rookie year than he did in four years at USC (Clay Matthews had 5 sacks in his entire college career.) I

If you're going to look at numbers sacks, tackles, etc. are not the numbers you want to look at. I mean, Jarius Wynn only had 4 fewer sacks last year than Cullen Jenkins had in 2010, which is not indicative of the dropoff at that position.

Yep, which is why I'm not a scout, and can't dig up diamonds in the rough. I can find a few players who have put it all together in college but for some reason, the draft niks just completely overlook them. These two are big guys who can hunker down. They're proven sack guys, proven athletes and play like studs. They look like 1st rounders to me.

I don't even pretend to know who the guys who have done very little in college, but will be probowlers are. There are too many great athletes who suck at football for me to play that game. I use what I know (production, athletic ability and the eyeball test) to find a few guys who are underrated each year. I think for what's available to us (and I don't read the crap on draft sites, it's too unreliable) I'm able to come up with a surprisingly reliable small group of guys who will be hella good players. And I don't like to use the top prospects. I use the guys who look exactly like the top prospects, but aren't getting any hype. It's sort of a way for me to see if my system works. Picking the top 10 players wouldn't prove anything.

[RashanGary]

OK I'm back and Is it just me or is it obvious:

Derek Wolfe Over Jared Crick by alot. Derek Wolfe looks awesome

This too helps me to lean more to Derek Wolfe. He was 2011 Big East Defensive Player Of The Year.

DT DEREK WOLFE, Cincinnati = Nice pick for some team. Then it's another wait and see.

Where is he when TT's is on the clock? I like OLB Courtney Upshaw, Alabama as a realistic prospect. I like USCs DE Nick Perry but he'll be gome before #28.

TT is going to pick a solid pass rusher.


That's my opinion too. Proven player. Proven athlete. Looks like a beast (moreso than Crick and he's bigger) This guy is going to go high. I'd bet on it. Crick is more of a 4-3 power end/specialty player in a 3-4. Sort of a Kampman type but a little bigger. A rich mans Hargrove. You'd want a big OLB behind him to protect against the run. Wolfe is a prototype 3-4 DE. There is no cardboard box on what a 3-4 DE has to be. Sometimes it's nice to mix it up and let your DE pin his ears back on first down. There's nothing better than a guy who lines up 4 feet away from the QB jumping a gap and laying the QB on his ass before he knows what's coming.

I'm actually backing off Crick a little after I saw Wolfe. Crick will be a player. Wolfe seems like a guy who could be a star.

[pbmax]

The really troubling thing about Crick is that if you watch Nebraska games when he was healthy (not youtube highlights, but actual games) he spends an inordinate amount of time on the ground. There is absolutely nothing positive that a defensive lineman can do from a prone position, so that definitely makes you worry. Playing with a DL on the ground is like playing with 10 guys.

The opossum technique.

[Fritz]

Is he on his back in submission?

[Lurker64]

Is he on his back in submission?

I think it's just a balance thing. He gets easily off balance and gets knocked down by OTs. The same way we can indicate a pass rusher's got great balance as a plus, I think Crick is the opposite.

Wolfe, I like though. I think if he can get some sand in his pants, he can be a Justin Smith type. Early on he's not going to be able to stand up to a double-team though. So I wouldn't mind him, but the slot has to be right.

It's the same way with the ORST CB/FS Hardin, I love him as a prospect but wouldn't want Ted to touch him before the third at the earliest (and most likely in the fourth.)

[woodbuck27]

That's my opinion too. Proven player. Proven athlete. Looks like a beast (moreso than Crick and he's bigger) This guy is going to go high. I'd bet on it. Crick is more of a 4-3 power end/specialty player in a 3-4. Sort of a Kampman type but a little bigger. A rich mans Hargrove. You'd want a big OLB behind him to protect against the run. Wolfe is a prototype 3-4 DE. There is no cardboard box on what a 3-4 DE has to be. Sometimes it's nice to mix it up and let your DE pin his ears back on first down. There's nothing better than a guy who lines up 4 feet away from the QB jumping a gap and laying the QB on his ass before he knows what's coming.

I'm actually backing off Crick a little after I saw Wolfe. Crick will be a player. Wolfe seems like a guy who could be a star.


JH what are your opinions on DE/OLB Nick Perry and LB Courtney Upshaw? If available at #28 would you choose someone else over either of these two prospects?

[Smeefers]

I like Courtney Upshaw cause he has a cool name. I'd look great on a football trading card.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The opossum technique.

He'll be unstoppable if he can secrete that anal juice that makes others think he's dead like the possum can. He won't need to get need to get near the QB to distract him, just be upwind of him.

[RashanGary]

Just watched Nick Perry. To be honest, I think Wolfe is a better player. Wolf seems to play with better leverage, gets the OL off balance and blows up plays. Both of them get after the QB. Perry seems to do it more with speed, Wolfe more with explosiveness and leverage. Wolfe finishes harder too.

Perry is a big guy for what he does. His game though, he's kind of an all around pass rusher. He actually gets the corner. I don't think he's stout enough to play 5 tech right now. I didn't see him blow up any OL. Wolfe did. I know Perry is big, but the way he gets shoved around and the way he can get the edge, I think he'd fit a little better as a 4-3 DE / Nickle pass rusher. Reminds me a lot of CJ Wilson in college the way he rushes the passer, and I know that's not a big compliment.

[RashanGary]

I like Courney Upshaw a lot. He plays attack defense, similar to Bishop. But Upshaw is bigger. He's stout. He really holds his own against OL. He'd do a good job on the edge in the run game. He doesn't hesitate. He attacks the ball. Seems sure of himself. Plays faster than his actual speed. Again, similar to bishop (of course, a better athlete.) I like Bishops pass rush, he gets under guys. Upshaw has a similar style, but again, he looks stronger.

When it comes to the big 3 abilities for an OLB, I'd give him this

B+ in the run game. I was impressed with how he hunkered down. I was also impressed with how he attacked the run game. Plays fast. Plays like he knows where he's going and what he's doing (makes up for his slowish 40 time)

B- as a pass rusher. He's good. Lining up with Clay on the other side, he'll get sacks. He's not a difference maker though. Good, not great. I'd put him on par with Cullen Jenkins as a pass rusher (of course, different positions, but similarly effective. They both beat one block from time to time, never two)

Pass coverage. . . I didn't get to see it. I went and read cbs sports write up on his pass coverage. It sounds like he's so/so at it. That's exactly what you need at 3-4 OLB. They aren't asked to run with TE's. They play zone. They need to be more instinctive than pure cover guys. . . . Sort of cover the flat and tackle kind of thing, or pick up some other form of zone. It sounds like he has the traits (instinctive zone player.) Just a guess, based on what they said, I think he'd be a good 3-4 OLB in coverage (again, due to the fact that they aren't asked to do all that much compared to 4-3 backers)


At the end of the day, I like him a lot. Nobody is an A+ across the board. Matthews IMO is an A- pass rusher, B- run stopper (with flashes of course, but B- overall) and B pass coverage. He's real complete and special as a pass rusher, but there's no such thing as a player who's the best at everything.

A few RB's almost beat Upshaw to the corner in the clips. In the NFL, if he takes those angles, he's going to get beat. He's going to have to temper his enthusiasm a little in the run game, maybe stay home a little more if he doesn't want to get beat. I'd be happy with him though. I don't see superstar, but I do see a long time damn good Packer. Somewhere between Bishop and Matthews as an overall player. That's good if you ask me. I'm a bishop fan.

We'd be a better defense right now if we drafted him IMO. Get this guy, Collins back, and a guy like Wolfe and look the hell out!

[woodbuck27]

Just watched Nick Perry. To be honest, I think Wolfe is a better player. Wolf seems to play with better leverage, gets the OL off balance and blows up plays. He also is slippery and gets after the QB.


Perry is a big guy, real big. His game though, he's kind of an all around pass rusher. He actually gets the corner. I don't think he's stout enough to play 5 tech right now. I didn't see him blow up any OL. Wolfe did.

Yes Derek Wolfe looks more versatile and has a ton of natural ability; he's not so one dimentional in terms of the straight ahead rush end that Nick Perry looks to be. The experts have projected Nick Perry over Derek Wolfe by a large margin. Maybe tomorrow Derek Wolfe begins to steam up DRAFT BOARDS.

Courtney Upshaw. He's rising fast on boards now... so he's very likely too expensive for Ted Thompson if he was interested in him.

[Fritz]

He'll be unstoppable if he can secrete that anal juice that makes others think he's dead like the possum can. He won't need to get need to get near the QB to distract him, just be upwind of him.

This is the kind of commentary that the producers of Monday Night Football are looking for.

[RashanGary]

Just going off the eye test, Woody, I think we both see Wolfe as a more dominant player. I wouldn't be surprised if draft day Wolfe went first. Honestly, these draft guys get shit way wrong all of the time. Sometimes the old eye test is better than all that draft coverage from people who get fed a bunch of false information.

[Fritz]

By golly, you're right, JH. Sometimes the ol' eye test is better than any other type of information when evaluating prospects.

http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2009/10/hendricks-mm2.jpg

[KYPack]

This is the kind of commentary that the producers of Monday Night Football are looking for.

CC, you don't even want to be the sickest guy on this forum, do ya?

[Joemailman]

To me, Derek Wolfe looks like a guy who would have a chance to be an effective inside pass rusher in the nickel. I doubt he's stout enough to line up as a 3-4 DE in base. Therefore, he is at best a 3rd round guy, but probably a 4th.

[woodbuck27]

By golly, you're right, JH. Sometimes the ol' eye test is better than any other type of information when evaluating prospects.

http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2009/10/hendricks-mm2.jpg

Where is she on your board Fritz?

[woodbuck27]

To me, Derek Wolfe looks like a guy who would have a chance to be an effective inside pass rusher in the nickel. I doubt he's stout enough to line up as a 3-4 DE in base. Therefore, he is at best a 3rd round guy, but probably a 4th.


I second your placement on Derek Wolfe. I like him sometime after our second round. I'm all in now on TT trading down in the first unless a player like Courtney Upshaw will be there for him. Somehow TT has to get two really solid defensive prospects at the top of this draft.

Who else are y'all seeing with an athletic aggressive style of play and with the smarts to be upgraded within our system? At all levels of this draft....who are these guys?

[woodbuck27]

Just going off the eye test, Woody, I think we both see Wolfe as a more dominant player. I wouldn't be surprised if draft day Wolfe went first. Honestly, these draft guys get shit way wrong all of the time. Sometimes the old eye test is better than all that draft coverage from people who get fed a bunch of false information.


JH ...We're on the same page RE: Derek Wolfe.

We both like Courtney Upshaw alot. Trouble with that fella is availability. IMO...He's one of the 'only' reasons that TT should pick out of #28 spot as opposed to trading down with #28.

I agree with Lurker64. TT's solid aiming for two selections in the Pick #35 - #45 range of the board 'we might see'; that NOT be anything like Ted Thompson's. (-:

That's why we must keep this exercise of everything 'the DRAFT' fun and light. Let's trip with it.

Ted Thompson is 'the Man'. I sure hope he's 'THE MAN' come the end of the day Friday April 27,2012.

If at all possible other committments aside...be there Packer fans. That'll be an exciting day !

I enjoyed your analysis of Courtney Upshaw JH. Good job man. (-:

J H ........ If you find time and interest...Compare Courtney Upshaw to Shea McClellin. I'm interested in your assessment and comparison of these two players; so much now that Shea McClellin is being talked about as our guy.

GO Ted Thompson...Go Packers !