The Average Elite Pass Rusher

[3irty1]

Out of curiosity, and of course because the packers will certainly be looking to draft a sack artist in a few days, I decided to average the various features of the current top pass rushers in the league. I put everyone who had at least 10 sacks in either this year or last year (25 guys all together) into a spread sheet and looked up the following numbers from when they were drafted: Height, Weight, Arm length, 40 time, 10 yard split, Bench press reps, Vertical Jump, Broad Jump, 20 yard SS, and 3-Cone. The following is what the average NFL sack artist would look like as a prospect:

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 258 lbs
Arm Length: 33 1/4"
40 time: 4.64
10 yard split: 1.60
Bench Press: 23 reps
Vertical jump: 36.5"
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 yard SS: 4.27
3-Cone: 7.09

Many of those numbers look very average but the jumps, SS, and 3-Cone are all quite high when compared to your average prospect. Take that for what it's worth but here are some of the things I noticed compared to this crop of prospects.

Shea McClellin, has prototypical size, length, and speed for success with numbers nearly equal to my models. His shuttle and 3-Cone are also very close. The only measurable where he falls short is the vertical jump with just 31.5". That vertical would have been tied with JPP for 2nd worst on my spread sheet only better than Tamba Hali.

Vinny Curry is close save for his broad jump which was only 9'03" which would be the lowest on my sheet if not for Tamba Hali's pittiful 8'10" jump. Curry is significantly stronger than is needed though with 28 reps and has a great 3-cone of 6.90s. He is one of the few in this class that is reasonably close to the lofty average vertical jump with his 35".

Upshaw falls way low with arm length (32"), vertical (27), broad jump (9'01"), 20 yd ss (4.60), and 3-Cone (7.32). I don't expect him to ever compete with the NFL sack leaders. He does at least have 10 lbs on the average.

Nick Perry exceeds the averages in weight (271), Bench Press (35), Vertical (38.5), Broad Jump (10'04"), but falls short 20 yard SS (4.66) which would be second worst on my sheet next to JPP. Perry seems like he'd be a much happier guy in a 4-3 but he has what it takes to be a good one.

Bobby Wagner is a bit undersized for my average (6'00" and 241 lbs) but surpasses the averages in most ways including his vertical (39.5"), broad jump (11'00" which would be tied for best on my sheet), and the 40 (4.46). With a few more lbs Bobby Wagner could look the part of a sack artist.

Bruce Irvin is a bit small and actually falls a wee bit short in the vertical with just 33.5" but kills the averages in the 40(4.5), ss(4.03), and 3c(6.70). The problems with Irvin aren't if he can get sacks but rather if he can stay out of trouble and do more than just win with speed.

Miles Burris is pretty close to prototypical all over but stronger (31 reps) and faster in the 3C (6.81).

Jake Bequette, the SEC sack leader, has better than average size (6'05" 274) poor speed (4.82s), sucks slightly on the jumps (34" and 9'05") but was pretty intriguing in the change of direction drills with a 4.07s time on the ss and a 6.90s 3-cone.

[Joemailman]

Vinny Curry is close save for his broad jump which was only 9'03" which would be the lowest on my sheet if not for Tamba Hali's pittiful 8'10" jump. Curry is significantly stronger than is needed though with 28 reps and has a great 3-cone of 6.90s. He is one of the few in this class that is reasonably close to the lofty average vertical jump with his 35".

If the Packers drafted Curry I wonder if they would consider putting him at LOLB and moving Matthews back to ROLB where he would be coming at the QB's blind side. It would also mean Matthews wouldn't have to do battle with the more physical RT's and TE's on every running play.

[Fritz]

Miles Burris? Who's that?

[RashanGary]

McClellin isn't just a pass rusher either. He does everything well. If we get him, I'm jumping for joy. Not that I know anything, but I'm jumping for joy cuz I think he's awesome!!

[pittstang5]

Miles Burris? Who's that?

Looks like he could play all linebacker positions. Haven't found too much on him. Best I could find:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=34454

[Joemailman]

McClellin isn't just a pass rusher either. He does everything well. If we get him, I'm jumping for joy. Not that I know anything, but I'm jumping for joy cuz I think he's awesome!!

You gonna be able to control yourself if TT drafts McClellin and Derek Wolfe? :-D

[pittstang5]

You gonna be able to control yourself if TT drafts McClellin and Derek Wolfe? :-D

TT could use the rest of his picks and only get TEs and WRs and I'd still be happier than a pig in slop if he gets those two. Well...not really, but I'd be pretty pumped.

[pbmax]

That 10 yard split looks pretty good for an average, doesn't it. Wasn't Matthews one of the quickest at 1.5x or something?

[Joemailman]

That 10 yard split looks pretty good for an average, doesn't it. Wasn't Matthews one of the quickest at 1.5x or something?

At the time, his 10 yard of 1.49 was the fastest ever for a 240+ lb. player.

[pbmax]

Ah, 1.49. That makes a difference.

[Bretsky]

TT could use the rest of his picks and only get TEs and WRs and I'd still be happier than a pig in slop if he gets those two. Well...not really, but I'd be pretty pumped.


DITTO

[woodbuck27]

McClellin isn't just a pass rusher either. He does everything well. If we get him, I'm jumping for joy. Not that I know anything, but I'm jumping for joy cuz I think he's awesome!!

Shea McClellin has now made it to the TOP OLB position on NFL Access's **Mike Mayock's TOP 100 Board. Mayock has Shea McClellin all the way up to #14 on his TOP 100 board. Some people really LOVE this fella.

Shea McClellin is the third ranked OLB on Mike Millers FINAL 2012 NFL Draft Big Board and #31 ranked overall.

1. Melvin Ingram, South Carolina (No. 12 Overall) (3-4)
2. Courtney Upshaw, Alabama (No. 15 Overall) (3-4)
3. Shea McClellin, Boise State (No. 31 Overall) (3-4)

ESPN gives Shea McClellin a Grade of 92 out of 100; a Position Rank of NO.1 and Overall Rank of 21.

The only LBer ranked higher at #20 is ILB Dont'a Hightower, Alabama who also received a grade of 92.

[ND72]

You gonna be able to control yourself if TT drafts McClellin and Derek Wolfe? :-D

Justin & I will have lots of happy man hugs.

[woodbuck27]

Miles Burris? Who's that?

Miles Burris is at (No. 286 Overall) on Matt Miller's Final 2012 NFL Draft Big Board.

Here's some more on this fella:

Miles Burris, OLB, San Diego State, 6'3'', 235 lbs

Miles Burris is from the Sacramento, California area. He's a solid pass-rushing linebacker and at worst he can help on special teams. He's got potential to start and if he can be drafted this late would really help fill multiple needs for the Raiders.

3irty1...Nice job. (-:

[Joemailman]

Miles Burris? Who's that?


Miles Burris, San Diego State (No. 286 Overall) on Matt Miller's Final 2012 NFL Draft Big Board

Matt Miller? Who's that?

[woodbuck27]

Matt Miller? Who's that?

Whenever I have a question like that I use GOOGLE.

Let's see what you would have found:

Bleacher Report's NFL Draft Lead Writer, Miller is also the founder of the NFL draft site New Era Scouting.

Matt's work has been featured on ESPN radio, SiriusXM, NFL.com, SI.com and USA Today as well as utilized by NFL, CFL and AFL teams.

Matt was the secondary and special teams coordinator for the three-time league champion Joplin Crusaders of the Central Football League.

[Joemailman]

If he writes for the Bleacher Report, that would explain why he unknown to me.

[woodbuck27]

If he writes for the Bleacher Report, that would explain why he unknown to me.


Ohh.

[Scott Campbell]

Whenever I have a question like that I use GOOGLE.


I give Woody credit for knowing how to operate that Googler thingy.

[Fritz]

I see in McGinn's rating of linebackers, he lists this Burris guy, and says some nice things. Has him pegged for about round four. This might be one of those dudes, if Thompson likes him, that gets picked by TT in round three - another TT surprise.

[3irty1]

I don't really care if Shea McClellin can do x, y, z if he isn't a better pass rusher than what we've got. The guy only got 7 sacks playing in a mid-major and a lot of those came from stunts inside rather than NFL-looking sacks. Fine, versatile, assignment sure football player sure but we need someone who will challenge an NFL tackle. McClellin is about as unsexy as a first round pick can be IMO and there will be better OLB candidates chosen after him.

If we land Wolfe in the 2nd though that would be amazing.

[3irty1]

Burris is giving me that going-to-be-a-packer feeling. He's a prototypical fit for our position of biggest need, his workout numbers are elite, he racked up 8 sacks and 19.5 TFL's last season as a Linebacker, and he's a well spoken pretty boy with eyes like two pools of ice water--so I'm guessing he interviewed well too. Most of all he should go towards the end of round 4... where we have 3 picks.

[George Cumby]

Looks like he could play all linebacker positions. Haven't found too much on him. Best I could find:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=34454

"Burris possesses a thickly built frame with good overall girth strapped through his upper and lower half."

Sounds like a girl I used to know.

[George Cumby]

Great work 31, that was a ton of work and a labor of love (In a manly, shit, I do better work than most of the hacks passing themselves off as journalists, kind of way.).

Thank you.

[George Cumby]

Wolfe:


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=36120

[pbmax]

Burris is giving me that going-to-be-a-packer feeling. He's a prototypical fit for our position of biggest need, his workout numbers are elite, he racked up 8 sacks and 19.5 TFL's last season as a Linebacker, and he's a well spoken pretty boy with eyes like two pools of ice water--so I'm guessing he interviewed well too. Most of all he should go towards the end of round 4... where we have 3 picks.

Are we drafting or dating him? Because he sounds fetching

[pbmax]

Serious question: If this was the regular season, I would know how to parse the hype, but the draft still discombobulates me.

Is Shea McClellin really climbing up team boards or just draftniks boards (I am guessing its the latter)? Because the draftniks have just about convinced themselves he will not be available at 28. But McGinn has him the fourth OLB, in rounds 1-2.

And his name still sounds like he is in a Highlander movie.

[3irty1]

Serious question: If this was the regular season, I would know how to parse the hype, but the draft still discombobulates me.

Is Shea McClellin really climbing up team boards or just draftniks boards (I am guessing its the latter)? Because the draftniks have just about convinced themselves he will not be available at 28. But McGinn has him the fourth OLB, in rounds 1-2.

And his name still sounds like he is in a Highlander movie.

Maybe we can send him to cut off Julius Peppers's head. That should make him a player. There can be only one.

[3irty1]

Are we drafting or dating him? Because he sounds fetching

http://s11.postimage.org/cycmt1981/Screenshot_at_2012_04_25_08_19_37.png

See for yourself.

[ND72]

I don't really care if Shea McClellin can do x, y, z if he isn't a better pass rusher than what we've got. The guy only got 7 sacks playing in a mid-major and a lot of those came from stunts inside rather than NFL-looking sacks. Fine, versatile, assignment sure football player sure but we need someone who will challenge an NFL tackle. McClellin is about as unsexy as a first round pick can be IMO and there will be better OLB candidates chosen after him.

If we land Wolfe in the 2nd though that would be amazing.

Thing to remember about McClellin, he played DE in an unconventional style defense. Also, teams they played played some "unconventional" style offenses such as spread and pistol, which usually allows the QB to get rid of ball faster.

[Smeefers]

I have nothing to add, but I repped the initial post. A lot of good work and food for thought.

[Zool]

McClellin is about as unsexy as a first round pick can be IMO and there will be better OLB candidates chosen after him.

Thus is the crux of the inaccuracy of the draft. You can poke, prod, scratch whatever to these guys and many of them will outright suck while the unsexy guy who looks to be average at best will have a 12 year career.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Serious question: If this was the regular season, I would know how to parse the hype, but the draft still discombobulates me.

Is Shea McClellin really climbing up team boards or just draftniks boards (I am guessing its the latter)? Because the draftniks have just about convinced themselves he will not be available at 28. But McGinn has him the fourth OLB, in rounds 1-2.

And his name still sounds like he is in a Highlander movie.
The way he's moving up reminds me of Mike Mamula back in the day. He was all the rage due to his combine and was hyped, hyped and hyped and the Iggles took him and he was a bust.

Funny how those who rip on Hawk love McClellin and the best things that can be said for him is the same things that are said of Hawk.

[Upnorth]

Great thread. There has been a couple of really good ones lately, well done all.

So where are they expecting Curry to go? I think he would be a great fit. Also getting Burris with one of our 4's would be a steal.

[pbmax]

The way he's moving up reminds me of Mike Mamula back in the day. He was all the rage due to his combine and was hyped, hyped and hyped and the Iggles took him and he was a bust.

Funny how those who rip on Hawk love McClellin and the best things that can be said for him is the same things that are said of Hawk.

Not a bad comparison, though Mamula wasn't exactly a bust. He was a very good player in the ACC at Boston College (I think that's right) and he excelled at chasing the QB. Back then it was a legit football conference.

His combine shot him from 2nd round to the first round. He had a reasonable career (though not top of first round quality) until he was injured.

McClellin has some parallels there, but he would look better at pick 28 than Mamula did at 10 or wherever.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Weird mix of OLBs this year. It's the only position I've looked at. (Well, that and a little DE.) It's hard to get totally on board with any of these guys. Ingram will be long gone. Upshaw had a terrible combine performance. Mercilus only had one good year in college. McClellin looks safe, but his ceiling might be lower than some others. I kind of like him though. I'm not that high on Jones. A lot of people are down on Perry. I think I read he only had 3 of his 9.5 sacks last year in one-on-one pass situations, and on 2 of them it took him longer than 3 seconds to record the sack. Lewis is mildly intriguing, but not as a 1st round pick to me. Branch and Curry are intriguing, but I'm wary of Clemson players and Curry might be a better fit as a 4-3 DE. Kendricks, Johnson, and Irvin are some others.

The one good thing going is that there seems to be a lot of 3-4 OLB types in this draft, so Thompson will probably have a 3-4 OLB available that he likes.

[Smidgeon]

The way he's moving up reminds me of Mike Mamula back in the day. He was all the rage due to his combine and was hyped, hyped and hyped and the Iggles took him and he was a bust.

Funny how those who rip on Hawk love McClellin and the best things that can be said for him is the same things that are said of Hawk.

A lot of good things could have been said about Hawk in college and about his combine performance--AKA his natural ability. The problem with Hawk is that it didn't translate to the pros like it should have. Will Shea have the same limits? I don't know. That's what the professional evaluators are for, and even they're guessing.

[Smeefers]

A lot of good things could have been said about Hawk in college and about his combine performance--AKA his natural ability. The problem with Hawk is that it didn't translate to the pros like it should have. Will Shea have the same limits? I don't know. That's what the professional evaluators are for, and even they're guessing.

Everyone said Hawk was a safe pick, he'd be a solid starter. They were right. He's solid. No super star, just a slightly above average ILB.

[Smidgeon]

Everyone said Hawk was a safe pick, he'd be a solid starter. They were right. He's solid. No super star, just a slightly above average ILB.

"Just" solid starters aren't drafted in the Top 10. They were expecting Clay Matthews impact. And his measurables said he should have been able to deliver.

[RashanGary]

Burris is giving me that going-to-be-a-packer feeling. He's a prototypical fit for our position of biggest need, his workout numbers are elite, he racked up 8 sacks and 19.5 TFL's last season as a Linebacker, and he's a well spoken pretty boy with eyes like two pools of ice water--so I'm guessing he interviewed well too. Most of all he should go towards the end of round 4... where we have 3 picks.

Amazing find!

Nice work.

[woodbuck27]

I see in McGinn's rating of linebackers, he lists this Burris guy, and says some nice things. Has him pegged for about round four. This might be one of those dudes, if Thompson likes him, that gets picked by TT in round three - another TT surprise.

I've got him well down as maybe a possibility in Round Seven.

Somewhere around Rank 250. That doesn't mean that some Scout doesn't see some much more value.

Fritz.I failed to note it and somehow lost the reference.You posted the name of A PACKER SCOUT THAT GAVE YOU OR A FRIEND THE SKINNY ON SOME HIGH PROSPECTS.

THE REAL 'TRUTH' ON THE WAYS OF SOME OF THE TOP PROSPECTS IN HIS EXPERIENCE MEETING THEM. I FORGOT TO NOTE HIS NAME. SORRY FOR THE CAP LOCKS.

MAY I ENQUIRE INTO HIS NAME?

[3irty1]

Thing to remember about McClellin, he played DE in an unconventional style defense. Also, teams they played played some "unconventional" style offenses such as spread and pistol, which usually allows the QB to get rid of ball faster.

The most unconventional thing about McClellin's defense is that it was loaded and playing against a ton of smaller, slower offenses who were usually behind by 20+ points and yet managed 7 sacks. If I'm going to settle on a guy who will be physically limited in the NFL I'd rather have Upshaw who managed 9 sacks against the SEC.

[Fritz]

I would agree with you, 3irty1. My thinking is this: as fans we want the hole plugged at ROLB, so a "good" guy like McClellin fits the bill, and fans seem anxious to get him in the first round. But he doesn't sound great, really - just like he might be an uggrade over what the Pack had there last year.

Yet when I hear people stinking about AJ Hawk, I think, well, isn't this about the same? Hawk's good. He's not a great player by any means, but he's solid. Yet the fans are unhappy - they want a playmaker for a guy drafted so high.

So right now people are all down with McClellin, but when he turns out to be a slightly above average ROLB in two or three years, people will bitch at Ted for that pick.

Now, it's a different story if people think this guy is going to be a real big deal - it's just that from what I've read, he looks like a guy who will be good, but limited in some respects.

Will Upshaw even be around, though? I'd guess no. I'm curious about Perry. I don't know if Capers wants those really big, mostly pass-rushing dudes, or if that's more Pittsburgh's style. I guess I'm not really sure what Capers et al are looking for in an outside linebacker. That's partly cuz I really didn't know what the skinny was on Matthews when they picked him. I don't recall reading any scouting reports on him - so of course I was shocked and disappointed that TT gave up so much to get a guy who was "unknown."

[3irty1]

I would agree with you, 3irty1. My thinking is this: as fans we want the hole plugged at ROLB, so a "good" guy like McClellin fits the bill, and fans seem anxious to get him in the first round. But he doesn't sound great, really - just like he might be an uggrade over what the Pack had there last year.

Yet when I hear people stinking about AJ Hawk, I think, well, isn't this about the same? Hawk's good. He's not a great player by any means, but he's solid. Yet the fans are unhappy - they want a playmaker for a guy drafted so high.

So right now people are all down with McClellin, but when he turns out to be a slightly above average ROLB in two or three years, people will bitch at Ted for that pick.

Now, it's a different story if people think this guy is going to be a real big deal - it's just that from what I've read, he looks like a guy who will be good, but limited in some respects.

Will Upshaw even be around, though? I'd guess no. I'm curious about Perry. I don't know if Capers wants those really big, mostly pass-rushing dudes, or if that's more Pittsburgh's style. I guess I'm not really sure what Capers et al are looking for in an outside linebacker. That's partly cuz I really didn't know what the skinny was on Matthews when they picked him. I don't recall reading any scouting reports on him - so of course I was shocked and disappointed that TT gave up so much to get a guy who was "unknown."

Pittsburgh and us both have zone-blitz heavy schemes that would like their OLBers to do everything well. Perry could probably be ok at OLB in a system more of a Wade Phillips style 3-4. The only thing he really does well is rush the passer so you'd love to put him in a position to just do that all the time. If we got him I'm sure Dom would find a way to use him.

[Fritz]

But if he had to use Perry primarily to rush, then you'd be limiting Matthews, right?

[3irty1]

But if he had to use Perry primarily to rush, then you'd be limiting Matthews, right?

Well there's no problem in the 2-4 or 3-3 packages we run most of the time anyways but when we go to use the 3-4 Perry would maybe steal a few pass-rushing attempts from Matthews which would be fine. Harrison has the same thing happen to him and he still produces. Perry might just leave the field for the 3-4 though. Or play RDE.

[Fritz]

If he could play RDE on some downs, that would be cool.

[RashanGary]

The most unconventional thing about McClellin's defense is that it was loaded and playing against a ton of smaller, slower offenses who were usually behind by 20+ points and yet managed 7 sacks. If I'm going to settle on a guy who will be physically limited in the NFL I'd rather have Upshaw who managed 9 sacks against the SEC.

I hear what you're saying, but if you watch him play. He's friggin good. Sneaky good.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think this McClellin kid looks pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBo1St4vArc

He showed me some plays where he took on blockers but was still able to make tackles. I liked the play where he jumped over the blocker and still made the tackle. He looks like he has strong hands. It shows him getting around the edge quickly on some plays. I liked how he defended that option play. He basically took away the option run and the pitch on the play and caused a fumble. Good instincts.

I realize he won't be Clay Matthews, but there were some plays that reminded me of Clay. Strong hands to strip the ball. A pursuit sack that reminded me of Clay's concussion hit on Kolb in 2010. Getting around the edge. There was a play where he ran an inside stunt and knifed through in a way that reminded me of Clay.

They didn't show him in coverage, and he doesn't quite have the quickness and knee bend that Clay has getting around the corner, but I'm now on board with this guy. In fact, I was impressed enough to think this guy won't be there when we pick.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Upshaw looks slow and lumbering compared to McClellin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPR3A415pY&feature=relmfu

Branch looks even less impressive. To me, he plays like a DE. He looks lost in space. He actually reminds me a bit of So'oto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBPKNmXl9E&feature=relmfu

David looks like a big safety. Tell me he's one of the smaller 3-4 OLBs available in the draft? He looks like he'd get swallowed up in the NFL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJiyeHFmTc&feature=relmfu

I want to like Hightower as a 3-4 OLB, but I see a lot of zone blitzes where he comes free up the middle. Reminds me more of Desmond Bishop than an ideal 3-4 OLB. He does look a little more athletic than Branch and Upshaw and looks like a thumper. Can't really judge him as a potential 3-4 OLB off these videos, but I like him as an ILB prospect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqUyVPenvA&feature=relmfu

Perry is kind of blah to me. His sacks are unimpressive. I think the transition is going to be tough for a lot of these 3-4 OLB candidates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hESWV57To0

Really hard to get a feel for Mercilus from his highlights. My first though is that he looks funny. He looks like he has no neck and his shoulder pads are tiny. However, there are some plays that make him intriguing. At least, somebody was trying to block him on most of his sacks.
:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81bWr2CROSY&feature=related

Similar thoughts on Curry. He looks like a pretty good 4-3 DE prospect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFM1Hpa2THw&feature=relmfu

Not sure what the buzz on Ronnell Lewis is, but he looks more intriguing to me than many of these other guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfk3UrGYoVo

McClellin

Mercilus
Hightower

Upshaw
Curry
Lewis
Perry
Branch

David

There are some guys (like Ingram) that will be long gone when we pick, but of the rest I like McClellin the best. The only other guys I want Thompson to consider in the first round are Mercilus (although I've read that he'll likely be gone also) or Hightower (if Thompson thinks he can transition to 3-4 OLB). To me, Upshaw, Curry, Perry, and Branch are similar enough that Thompson could wait until round 2 and hope one drops. Plus, I question how easy the transition will be for these guys. Lewis in round 2 is intriguing option to me.

I'm hoping that if we don't get McClellin or Mercilus, that there will be a good 3-4 DE prospect available. Then, look to Lewis in round 2 or maybe that sleeper everybody is talking about later in the draft.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think people are missing the boat if they think this McClellin kid is an average talent, hard working type. The athleticism he shows on his highlights is every bit as impressive as most of these other guys. And he also looks to be more versatile. Upshaw to me seems more like a guy that is limited athletically, but will probably be a decent player. I guess he could be a Ray Lewis type. A guy that didn't wow you with his measurables, but whose passion, intelligence, and physicality allowed him to make up for whatever athletic limitations he might have had.

[Fritz]

I'm frankly dubious of youtube highlights as a way to judge a guy.

On the other hand, I don't know a damn thing about any of these guys, really, except what little I've read. So I am willing to entertain your notion, Harv, that the kid is the real deal. I trust Thompson's judgement - I think he's maybe the best talent evaluator in the NFL - and I'm hoping the losses of the Mckenzies and Schneiders don't take their toll and that their replacements (like Elliot Wolf) are as sharp-eyed or maybe moreso.

The other thing none of us get to really see is what these guys are like in person. I have a feeling that would influence me greatly. So maybe I'd like some guy based on my scholarly internet reading of draft gurus, but maybe Ted knows in doing his work and talking to the kid that the kid actually has no idea what it takes to be a pro, and his personality is such that he'll very likely never learn. So Ted passes, and I get mad cuz clearly Ted can't judge talent...

So if Thompson drafts McClellin, I won't bitch. I will hope that you and Ted are right, Harv.

Now, if Thompson drafts a tight end, I might just bitch...

[pbmax]

I think people are missing the boat if they think this McClellin kid is an average talent, hard working type. The athleticism he shows on his highlights is every bit as impressive as most of these other guys. And he also looks to be more versatile. Upshaw to me seems more like a guy that is limited athletically, but will probably be a decent player. I guess he could be a Ray Lewis type. A guy that didn't wow you with his measurables, but whose passion, intelligence, and physicality allowed him to make up for whatever athletic limitations he might have had.

Yes, there is rumbling on the football side of the internet that McClellin is getting a "hard worker" backhanded compliment leveled at him because of skin color and draftniks who don't watch tape.

But a lot of confused pundits use athleticism differently after the combine. Prior to it, it describes play on the field. After the combine, its a comment about how well they would do in a decathlon.

[Deputy Nutz]

I would agree with you, 3irty1. My thinking is this: as fans we want the hole plugged at ROLB, so a "good" guy like McClellin fits the bill, and fans seem anxious to get him in the first round. But he doesn't sound great, really - just like he might be an uggrade over what the Pack had there last year.

Yet when I hear people stinking about AJ Hawk, I think, well, isn't this about the same? Hawk's good. He's not a great player by any means, but he's solid. Yet the fans are unhappy - they want a playmaker for a guy drafted so high.

So right now people are all down with McClellin, but when he turns out to be a slightly above average ROLB in two or three years, people will bitch at Ted for that pick.

Now, it's a different story if people think this guy is going to be a real big deal - it's just that from what I've read, he looks like a guy who will be good, but limited in some respects.

Will Upshaw even be around, though? I'd guess no. I'm curious about Perry. I don't know if Capers wants those really big, mostly pass-rushing dudes, or if that's more Pittsburgh's style. I guess I'm not really sure what Capers et al are looking for in an outside linebacker. That's partly cuz I really didn't know what the skinny was on Matthews when they picked him. I don't recall reading any scouting reports on him - so of course I was shocked and disappointed that TT gave up so much to get a guy who was "unknown."

Mathews was a rush linebacker in college. His primary job was to line up on the line of Scrimmage and rush the passer. Perry played the same position at USC. Perry is athletic enough to cover the flat, you don't have to be Deon Sanders to cover as an OLB in the 3-4 defense, you do if you have no pass rush capabilities like Walden and Zombo. Think about it, Perry has to better at just about everything than those guys.

[Smeefers]

"Just" solid starters aren't drafted in the Top 10. They were expecting Clay Matthews impact. And his measurables said he should have been able to deliver.

Yeah, Impact players. Lets take a look at the top 10.

Mario Williams†- Great
Reggie Bush - Severely underperformed
Vince Young† - Sucks
D'Brickashaw - Solid
A. J. Hawk† - Solid
Vernon Davis† - Solid
Michael Huff - Underperformed
Donte Whitner - Sucks
Ernie Sims - sucks
Matt Leinart - Out of football? I don't know what even happened to this guy.

You could do this every year. TT didn't hit a home run, but that year the only one who did was Houston and they had the first pick.

AJ Hawk was actually one of the better picks from the 2006 draft. Yes, there were better players taken later on, but I find it hard to believe anyone would have said Ngata or Mangold were top 10 players when they were being drafted. There is one guy you could argue about and that's Vernon Davis (and he specifically stated he wouldn't play for Green Bay) and he's had a less than steller career. AJ Hawk has lead the packers in tackling 4 of his 6 years here. He was #2 his second year. Last year was really his only poor year and he still had 84 tackles.

† = Pro Bowl

[Deputy Nutz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_B2JlIleWQ&feature=endscreen

This is the whole Georgia game, I think he is about the closest thing to Clay Mathews avaliable at the 28th selection.

[George Cumby]

Upshaw looks slow and lumbering compared to McClellin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPR3A415pY&feature=relmfu

Branch looks even less impressive. To me, he plays like a DE. He looks lost in space. He actually reminds me a bit of So'oto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBPKNmXl9E&feature=relmfu

David looks like a big safety. Tell me he's one of the smaller 3-4 OLBs available in the draft? He looks like he'd get swallowed up in the NFL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJiyeHFmTc&feature=relmfu

I want to like Hightower as a 3-4 OLB, but I see a lot of zone blitzes where he comes free up the middle. Reminds me more of Desmond Bishop than an ideal 3-4 OLB. He does look a little more athletic than Branch and Upshaw and looks like a thumper. Can't really judge him as a potential 3-4 OLB off these videos, but I like him as an ILB prospect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqUyVPenvA&feature=relmfu

Perry is kind of blah to me. His sacks are unimpressive. I think the transition is going to be tough for a lot of these 3-4 OLB candidates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hESWV57To0

Really hard to get a feel for Mercilus from his highlights. My first though is that he looks funny. He looks like he has no neck and his shoulder pads are tiny. However, there are some plays that make him intriguing. At least, somebody was trying to block him on most of his sacks.
:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81bWr2CROSY&feature=related

Similar thoughts on Curry. He looks like a pretty good 4-3 DE prospect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFM1Hpa2THw&feature=relmfu

Not sure what the buzz on Ronnell Lewis is, but he looks more intriguing to me than many of these other guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfk3UrGYoVo

McClellin

Mercilus
Hightower

Upshaw
Curry
Lewis
Perry
Branch

David

There are some guys (like Ingram) that will be long gone when we pick, but of the rest I like McClellin the best. The only other guys I want Thompson to consider in the first round are Mercilus (although I've read that he'll likely be gone also) or Hightower (if Thompson thinks he can transition to 3-4 OLB). To me, Upshaw, Curry, Perry, and Branch are similar enough that Thompson could wait until round 2 and hope one drops. Plus, I question how easy the transition will be for these guys. Lewis in round 2 is intriguing option to me.

I'm hoping that if we don't get McClellin or Mercilus, that there will be a good 3-4 DE prospect available. Then, look to Lewis in round 2 or maybe that sleeper everybody is talking about later in the draft.


Repped.

After watching some other vids (I know, I know), I watched this one against Georgia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_B2JlIleWQ

He holds up against SEC talent and gets a sack at the right time. Another thing TT looks for, production in big games when it counts.

I am now sold, color me McClellin in the first.

[Deputy Nutz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osla4w0Dcc8

I like how Perry gets off on the snap, very explosive, but I just don't know if he is going to translate to OLB at the next level, Mathews has a smaller build, a little more athletic than Perry.

[Brandon494]

Yeah, Impact players. Lets take a look at the top 10.

Mario Williams†- Great
Reggie Bush - Severely underperformed
Vince Young† - Sucks
D'Brickashaw - Solid
A. J. Hawk† - Solid
Vernon Davis† - Solid
Michael Huff - Underperformed
Donte Whitner - Sucks
Ernie Sims - sucks
Matt Leinart - Out of football? I don't know what even happened to this guy.

You could do this every year. TT didn't hit a home run, but that year the only one who did was Houston and they had the first pick.

AJ Hawk was actually one of the better picks from the 2006 draft. Yes, there were better players taken later on, but I find it hard to believe anyone would have said Ngata or Mangold were top 10 players when they were being drafted. There is one guy you could argue about and that's Vernon Davis (and he specifically stated he wouldn't play for Green Bay) and he's had a less than steller career. AJ Hawk has lead the packers in tackling 4 of his 6 years here. He was #2 his second year. Last year was really his only poor year and he still had 84 tackles.

† = Pro Bowl

Hawk is decent at best and Davis is great.

[Cleft Crusty]

Good videos, Deputy. Perry looks sluggish in space. Why is he wearing #8? McClellin plays a different spot on almost every play. he looks comfortable in coverage, but was only asked to cover a blob of a TE. Packers may favor McClellin's versatility over anything else, given Caper's proclivity to mix things up.

[Smidgeon]

Yeah, Impact players. Lets take a look at the top 10.

Mario Williams†- Great
Reggie Bush - Severely underperformed
Vince Young† - Sucks
D'Brickashaw - Solid
A. J. Hawk† - Solid
Vernon Davis† - Solid
Michael Huff - Underperformed
Donte Whitner - Sucks
Ernie Sims - sucks
Matt Leinart - Out of football? I don't know what even happened to this guy.

You could do this every year. TT didn't hit a home run, but that year the only one who did was Houston and they had the first pick.

AJ Hawk was actually one of the better picks from the 2006 draft. Yes, there were better players taken later on, but I find it hard to believe anyone would have said Ngata or Mangold were top 10 players when they were being drafted. There is one guy you could argue about and that's Vernon Davis (and he specifically stated he wouldn't play for Green Bay) and he's had a less than steller career. AJ Hawk has lead the packers in tackling 4 of his 6 years here. He was #2 his second year. Last year was really his only poor year and he still had 84 tackles.

† = Pro Bowl

I was talking about expectations instead of results. The expectation was that Hawk was going to be an impact player. Yes he was "safe" in that he was tagged as the most NFL-ready, but he was still expected to be Impact-ful.

[ND72]

Yeah, Impact players. Lets take a look at the top 10.

Mario Williams†- Great
Reggie Bush - Severely underperformed
Vince Young† - Sucks
D'Brickashaw - Solid
A. J. Hawk† - Solid
Vernon Davis† - Solid
Michael Huff - Underperformed
Donte Whitner - Sucks
Ernie Sims - sucks
Matt Leinart - Out of football? I don't know what even happened to this guy.

You could do this every year. TT didn't hit a home run, but that year the only one who did was Houston and they had the first pick.

AJ Hawk was actually one of the better picks from the 2006 draft. Yes, there were better players taken later on, but I find it hard to believe anyone would have said Ngata or Mangold were top 10 players when they were being drafted. There is one guy you could argue about and that's Vernon Davis (and he specifically stated he wouldn't play for Green Bay) and he's had a less than steller career. AJ Hawk has lead the packers in tackling 4 of his 6 years here. He was #2 his second year. Last year was really his only poor year and he still had 84 tackles.

† = Pro Bowl

Lets also remember that Ngata was considered a 3-4 guy, and we were 4-3 at that time. (I know he would have been fine, but still).
Also, Vernon Davis has had an up and down career. This year he finally came out and did what was expected. Until this year, he was shaky and considered unreliable.

[Pugger]

I think this McClellin kid looks pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBo1St4vArc

He showed me some plays where he took on blockers but was still able to make tackles. I liked the play where he jumped over the blocker and still made the tackle. He looks like he has strong hands. It shows him getting around the edge quickly on some plays. I liked how he defended that option play. He basically took away the option run and the pitch on the play and caused a fumble. Good instincts.

I realize he won't be Clay Matthews, but there were some plays that reminded me of Clay. Strong hands to strip the ball. A pursuit sack that reminded me of Clay's concussion hit on Kolb in 2010. Getting around the edge. There was a play where he ran an inside stunt and knifed through in a way that reminded me of Clay.

They didn't show him in coverage, and he doesn't quite have the quickness and knee bend that Clay has getting around the corner, but I'm now on board with this guy. In fact, I was impressed enough to think this guy won't be there when we pick.

I think it is grossly unfair to expect to find another Clay in this draft, especially from where we are sitting - unless we move up a few slots in a trade.

[Smeefers]

Lets also remember that Ngata was considered a 3-4 guy, and we were 4-3 at that time. (I know he would have been fine, but still).
Also, Vernon Davis has had an up and down career. This year he finally came out and did what was expected. Until this year, he was shaky and considered unreliable.

That's what I always though about Davis too, but it turns out 2009 & 2010 were his good years where he had close to 1000 yard seasons. Last year he was at 600 something.

As for those who disagree, there's no arguing if you straight up think T Davis is a great NFL player and Hawk isn't one. I will stand and say Hawk did make an impact. He's lead the team in tackles a majority of his career. If you think every top 10 player should be a superstar, then I think that is a very unrealistic view of how the NFL works. You get a better chance to get a superstar, but getting a solid pick is by no means a loss. There were maybe what, 10 good picks in the first round? We got one of them.


Here's a little something to start a convo:
If we had 4 linebackers who, at their position, were as good as AJ was at his, we'd have the best LB crew in the league.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it is grossly unfair to expect to find another Clay in this draft, especially from where we are sitting - unless we move up a few slots in a trade.

Thus, "I realize he won't be Clay Matthews".

[Fritz]

I love the conversation here about who's the best fit and all, but are we gonna do if Ted drafts a wide receiver or a running back or something?

[Smeefers]

I love the conversation here about who's the best fit and all, but are we gonna do when Ted drafts a wide receiver or a running back or something?

Fixed.

[denverYooper]

I think people are missing the boat if they think this McClellin kid is an average talent, hard working type. The athleticism he shows on his highlights is every bit as impressive as most of these other guys. And he also looks to be more versatile. Upshaw to me seems more like a guy that is limited athletically, but will probably be a decent player. I guess he could be a Ray Lewis type. A guy that didn't wow you with his measurables, but whose passion, intelligence, and physicality allowed him to make up for whatever athletic limitations he might have had.

You mean he's just not a high-motor, lunchpail-type guy? One who brings a strong blue-collar work ethic to the sport?

[denverYooper]

Upshaw looks slow and lumbering compared to McClellin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPR3A415pY&feature=relmfu



I think they may want more of a bull than a tiger opposite Clay, though, and Upshaw would certainly better fit that bill.

[pbmax]

I think they may want more of a bull than a tiger opposite Clay, though, and Upshaw would certainly better fit that bill.

That's actually a good question, though I am not sure T2 will be asking that during the pick. Does Capers need a want a specialty guy or are the two OLBS interchangeable? Matthews moved to the left side after his rookie year (he does move around a lot play to play) where tradition indicates he would see more runs and face the TE more often. The left side lends itself to one on one pass rush versus the LT.

In Pittsburgh, Harrison is on the right and the larger Woodley is on the left more often than not.

[3irty1]

McClellin is a good player no doubt, he doesn't ever seem to leave plays on the field. Thing is we need a pass rusher and he's just so-so but more importantly doesn't have the raw tools to become what we need. I'd rather have Perry. Perry is a worse overall player and probably always will be but he can threaten that edge from the day he is drafted which fills our actual need. Even if McClellin can become a pass rusher who can win one-on-one's with NFL left tackles he is in the mold that will take a while to develop, like Aaron Kampman. Our window is now, I want pressure on the QB.

Might sound stupid but I'd rather draft a KGB than an Aaron Kampman right now. I'll take the one-trick-pony as long as that trick is getting to the QB.

[Fritz]

But if you draft the one-trick pony, don't you then find yourself in a position to become too predictable? Maybe you can't rush Matthews as much now because you've got to use Perry to rush,not to cover - so you have to use Matthews in coverage more?

[3irty1]

That's actually a good question, though I am not sure T2 will be asking that during the pick. Does Capers need a want a specialty guy or are the two OLBS interchangeable? Matthews moved to the left side after his rookie year (he does move around a lot play to play) where tradition indicates he would see more runs and face the TE more often. The left side lends itself to one on one pass rush versus the LT.

In Pittsburgh, Harrison is on the right and the larger Woodley is on the left more often than not.

The Packers do it the way they do it for the benefit of the scheme because we have only one pass-rushing threat at OLB. Clay is a nice pass rusher but he isn't so good that you don't leave your LT on an island to handle him. Put Clay at LOLB though and they have to roll more protection that way. Basically we've accepted we're not getting to the QB but at least we can keep one less guy from running a route. If this team added McClellin or Upshaw it wouldn't surprise me to see Clay back on the right side. He can beat an NFL left tackle around the corner once in a while. Those guys can at least contain and chase down boot-legging QB's and keep RT's honest.

[3irty1]

But if you draft the one-trick pony, don't you then find yourself in a position to become too predictable? Maybe you can't rush Matthews as much now because you've got to use Perry to rush,not to cover - so you have to use Matthews in coverage more?

In our 2-4 (what we play lik 75% of the time) you'd have Clay, Raji, Wynn/Hargrove, and Perry as your 4 pass rushers more often than not. This is the package we need help with. Our 3-4 is mostly for defending the run and Running backs aren't the people that are beating us in shoot-outs. But in the cases where we do rush the passer out of the 3-4, I'm happy with dropping Clay into coverage. He's good at it. Pittsburgh does it with Harrison all the time and he's still competing for defensive player of the year every season.

[HarveyWallbangers]

There are some guys (like Ingram) that will be long gone when we pick, but of the rest I like McClellin the best.

I am an elite OLB mind. The Bears agreed with me.
:)

I'm kind of pissed. You suckers roped me into caring and researching some of these guys, and the guy I liked went to the Bears. Argh!

[3irty1]

I'd rather have Perry.

Lets hope I am too! :)

[Smidgeon]

I am an elite OLB mind. The Bears agreed with me.
:)

I'm kind of pissed. You suckers roped me into caring and researching some of these guys, and the guy I liked went to the Bears. Argh!

Makes me think the Bears panicked a little and picked a guy pegged for a 3-4 just so another team wouldn't take him.