Raji to RDE?

[Fritz]

So here's a question for those of you better versed in the type of 3 - 4 the Packers play than I am:

Would it be feasible, if someone like Dontari Poe drops to #28, for the Packers to choose him, let him play the nose, and move Raji over to the right side?

I don't know enough to know if Poe is the "right" kind of player for the nose tackle position as the Packers want it played. I don't know enough to know if Raji's skills translate into the RDE position.

And if Poe isn't the right kind of nose tackle, or if he's gone, is there a nose tackle good enough to choose at #28 that would allow for this scenario?

And is this scenario even a good idea?

[Deputy Nutz]

Poe is the right kind of body type to play nose tackle, but Raji is a better nose tackle than he is a 5 tech. As far as pass rushing goes, Raji is a better at the nose position than he is lining up over a tackle. Packers really have two nose tackles already in Pickett and Raji, they need a defensive end that can rush the passer, or am olb that will get pressure on the edge, which will upen up Raji in the middle.

[Guiness]

Didn't Raji played RDE his rookie year and Pickett played nose?

[sharpe1027]

Didn't Raji played RDE his rookie year and Pickett played nose?

I think so. If nothing else, it would be nice to be able to move him around more so that the defense is a little less predictable. Getting another body capable of holding up inside would allow that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Raji played LDE. The Raji and Pickett switched positions last year. Jenkins played RDE.

[Scott Campbell]

Raji, Pickett and Green lined up together a bunch last year. Could they sub Poe for Green?

[3irty1]

Raji did play LDE his rookie year before he started excelling at stuffing the run, but he already plays the equivalent of DE in our 2-4, as typically the NT is replaced with an extra corner in that subpackage. The Packers are a little different because Raji is also our best passrusher so he almost never leaves the field.

I'd be pretty thrilled to land Poe actually. Poe is a very similar player to Raji in that he is a big circle-shaped guy who has physics-defying speed and flexibility. Not many guys that fat can rush the passer worth a hoot. Poe would give us another fat guy and another pass rusher giving us some pretty sweet options. You could waddle Pickett, Raji, and Poe out in a 3-4 for a half-ton of anti-run, or Raji, and Poe out in the 2-4 for a pass-rush that would look similar to two Indiana Jones boulders. With an extra body like that plus the rotational guys Muir, Wynn, and Hargrove we could keep our big guys on a pitch count which should put Raji back in 2010 form. Don't forget too that Pickett's contract is coming up as well.

[Fritz]

I wonder what's harder to find, a nose tackle who can play and hold the middle, or a defensive end that can play the 3-4 and get a little pressure?

[sharpe1027]

Raji played LDE. The Raji and Pickett switched positions last year. Jenkins played RDE.

I always had trouble with left and right. At least until I figured out the left-hand "L" trick.

[pbmax]

Raji is also a bit short for a DE in the 3-4. They moved him inside to get he and Pickett on the field together (best 3 on roster on the field, etc.) and preferred to play Pickett out of position to let Raji disrupt inside where he was more effective. Oddly, the switch had the reverse effect as his run D suffered and his pass rush halted. Poe would force someone out of position again, possibly two people.

I think Ted would prefer that someone dying for Poe trade up.

[Fritz]

Interesting point - so Ted would prefer Raji at the nose, it seems. So do any prospects fit the bill at RDE for the Pack?

[Smidgeon]

Raji did play LDE his rookie year before he started excelling at stuffing the run, but he already plays the equivalent of DE in our 2-4, as typically the NT is replaced with an extra corner in that subpackage. The Packers are a little different because Raji is also our best passrusher so he almost never leaves the field.

I'd be pretty thrilled to land Poe actually. Poe is a very similar player to Raji in that he is a big circle-shaped guy who has physics-defying speed and flexibility. Not many guys that fat can rush the passer worth a hoot. Poe would give us another fat guy and another pass rusher giving us some pretty sweet options. You could waddle Pickett, Raji, and Poe out in a 3-4 for a half-ton of anti-run, or Raji, and Poe out in the 2-4 for a pass-rush that would look similar to two Indiana Jones boulders. With an extra body like that plus the rotational guys Muir, Wynn, and Hargrove we could keep our big guys on a pitch count which should put Raji back in 2010 form. Don't forget too that Pickett's contract is coming up as well.

That's the new duo nickname if it happens. Duly noted.

[3irty1]

Raji is also a bit short for a DE in the 3-4. They moved him inside to get he and Pickett on the field together (best 3 on roster on the field, etc.) and preferred to play Pickett out of position to let Raji disrupt inside where he was more effective. Oddly, the switch had the reverse effect as his run D suffered and his pass rush halted. Poe would force someone out of position again, possibly two people.

I think Ted would prefer that someone dying for Poe trade up.

Raji took over Nose responsibilities for the superbowl season so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Poe is another Pickett/Green/Muir type of DE but with pass rushing upside like Raji, I think he fits very well with what Ted likes bring at end.

[Brandon494]

No on Poe! Hes a combine warrior, not a football player.

[pbmax]

Raji took over Nose responsibilities for the superbowl season so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Poe is another Pickett/Green/Muir type of DE but with pass rushing upside like Raji, I think he fits very well with what Ted likes bring at end.

I should have said had the reverse effect in the 2011 season when he regressed. It also coincided with the Eagle formation that McGinn talked about in the preseason, where the 3 lineman moved out of a standard 3-4 alignment. I don't think Pickett or Green are natural DEs at all. Perhaps Poe would be more suited there?

[pbmax]

Here is the description of the Eagle. It was used in 2010 with Raji at nose, but in 2011 McGinn said Capers envisioned Pickett back at nose with Raji at a 3-technique. Early in the season, McGinn tracked it, but either he or I lost count. Not sure if he gave number of snaps for it in his season ending recap.


Originally Posted by Bob McGinn, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Aug 9, 2011
 Okie, in which both ends play a 5-technique head-up over the tackles while the nose tackle is head-up on the center.

 Eagle, in which the end to the strong (tight end) side is head-up on the tackle in a 5-technique, the nose tackle is in a shaded position just off the strong-side shoulder of the center, and the weak-side end is in a 3-technique position on the outside shoulder of the guard.

Last year, on the approximately 25% of the defensive snaps when the Packers were in the 3-4, they played far more Eagle than Okie. Usually, Pickett was the 5-technique on the left side, Raji was the shaded nose tackle and either Cullen Jenkins or Howard Green was the 3-technique on the right side.

In the new setup, the 340-pound Pickett would be back at nose tackle, where he started from 2006-'09 and probably is most effective, and Raji would have more freedom as a one-gap player in the spot previously occupied by Jenkins.

And just to start a fight about nomenclature of defenses, I think the Eagle as described would look like a Fritz Shurmur 4-3 Under defense on the line if you consider the weakside OLB as the fourth lineman. In 2010, Pickett was Reggie White, Raji was Gilbert Brown, Jenkins was Santana Dotson and Zombo/Jones/Walden was Sean Jones.

In 2011, Pickett was Gilbert, Raji was Dotson, CJ WIlson/JariusWynn/Howard Green was Reggie and the LBs were Sean Jones.

[3irty1]

I think Pickett is perfect for his position but that position is really just situational Run-stuffer. He offers almost no pass rush so it makes sense to pull him on 3rd down. I think Raji's regressions are most just do to being overused. He already played tons of snaps when we had Jenkins, then last year without him he could basically never leave the field.

Poe is pretty much the same type of prospect that Raji was, since he could learn to do it all he would be a major asset as a guy who can take any of Raji's reps from him keeping both fresh. Don't they say that NT is the most exhausting job in football? The real problem with Poe is that out of all the first round DT's this year he's probably the worst player right now although I also feel that Memphis overused Poe. I'm ok putting faith in Trgovac to develop his 2nd Raji though. That is one rare, rare, skill set right there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Pickett is perfect for his position but that position is really just situational Run-stuffer. He offers almost no pass rush so it makes sense to pull him on 3rd down. I think Raji's regressions are most just do to being overused. He already played tons of snaps when we had Jenkins, then last year without him he could basically never leave the field.

It seems like a convenient excuse for Raji--since he almost never left the field in 2010 either. In fact, about halfway through last year the coaches decided to play Raji less. I'm not sure how much less he played, but I wouldn't be surprised if he played fewer snaps in 2011 than 2010. I shouldn't say convenient excuse though. Most big guys wear down. Raji didn't wear down much in 2010. In fact, he got better as the year went on.

[Fritz]

That's what I keep coming back to: there just aren't many guys that big and that quick.

But I'm no guru, so I trust in TT.

[ND72]

do NOT like Poe. He played no top level teams and put up no noticeable stats. He was listed as a 6th round player in my pre-combine guide, then post-combine he was listed as top 10. Guy will be nothing in the league.

[3irty1]

do NOT like Poe. He played no top level teams and put up no noticeable stats. He was listed as a 6th round player in my pre-combine guide, then post-combine he was listed as top 10. Guy will be nothing in the league.

He had the same production at this point in his career as Raji or Haloti Ngata.

[pittstang5]

I never heard of Poe until he blew up the combine. His Stats are outright amazing for how big he is. My gut says he's gonna fall to the 2nd round and someone might take a flyer on him. I don't see TT taking Poe if he is available. If he does, In TT I trust.

[pbmax]

He had the same production at this point in his career as Raji or Haloti Ngata.

What are his stats in college?

[Deputy Nutz]

No on Poe! Hes a combine warrior, not a football player.

He played on a shitty team and on a shitty defense. Scouts found his lack of intensity problematic. I am not a huge fan of this guy, short arms, not a lot of length. I just don't think he is what Packer fan should be looking for when it comes to defensive ends. Raji is a nose tackle, or a defensive tackle in a 4-3 defense, he didn't like playing defensive end in 2009. I wouldn't mind the Packers stocking up on nose tackles, but if you are looking for a first round pick the Packers need to really focus on defensive end, olb, and safety. If Poe is the best value on the board then I would concede to either trade back, or take him and rotate him in at nose tackle to keep Raji fresh, but that is not ideal for your first round pick.

[George Cumby]

He played on a shitty team and on a shitty defense. Scouts found his lack of intensity problematic. I am not a huge fan of this guy, short arms, not a lot of length. I just don't think he is what Packer fan should be looking for when it comes to defensive ends. Raji is a nose tackle, or a defensive tackle in a 4-3 defense, he didn't like playing defensive end in 2009. I wouldn't mind the Packers stocking up on nose tackles, but if you are looking for a first round pick the Packers need to really focus on defensive end, olb, and safety. If Poe is the best value on the board then I would concede to either trade back, or take him and rotate him in at nose tackle to keep Raji fresh, but that is not ideal for your first round pick.

If this is accurate, TT ain't touching that.

[Guiness]

Here is the description of the Eagle. It was used in 2010 with Raji at nose, but in 2011 McGinn said Capers envisioned Pickett back at nose with Raji at a 3-technique. Early in the season, McGinn tracked it, but either he or I lost count. Not sure if he gave number of snaps for it in his season ending recap.



And just to start a fight about nomenclature of defenses, I think the Eagle as described would look like a Fritz Shurmur 4-3 Under defense on the line if you consider the weakside OLB as the fourth lineman. In 2010, Pickett was Reggie White, Raji was Gilbert Brown, Jenkins was Santana Dotson and Zombo/Jones/Walden was Sean Jones.

In 2011, Pickett was Gilbert, Raji was Dotson, CJ WIlson/JariusWynn/Howard Green was Reggie and the LBs were Sean Jones.

After reading that last line, all I could think was "No, I'M Spartacus!"

[ND72]

He had the same production at this point in his career as Raji or Haloti Ngata.

No he didn't, nfl network tonight said Poe had 28 tackles, 1.5 sacks and 3 tackles for loss last season.

[3irty1]

No he didn't, nfl network tonight said Poe had 28 tackles, 1.5 sacks and 3 tackles for loss last season.

Well they must have said that mid season. Poe in 2011: 33 tackles, 8 TFLs, 1 sack, 1 FF

Raji over 4 years: 99 Tackles, 23 TFLs, 9 sacks
Poe over 3 years: 101 Tackles, 21.5 TFLs, 5 sacks

[Pugger]

No on Poe! Hes a combine warrior, not a football player.

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!

Have any of you seen game tape of this guy? If he disappears when he's up against O linemen in his conference in college he'll be even worse in the NFL.

[ND72]

Well they must have said that mid season. Poe in 2011: 33 tackles, 8 TFLs, 1 sack, 1 FF

Raji over 4 years: 99 Tackles, 23 TFLs, 9 sacks
Poe over 3 years: 101 Tackles, 21.5 TFLs, 5 sacks

Are you getting those stats from Wikipedia? Official senior year stats has him listed as 28 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 TFL, and 1 FF. Wikipedia has a completely different number, 33 tackles, 8 TFL, 2 Sacks, 1FF. And, most networks only list solo tackles, not total tackles since you can jump on a pile and get credit for a tackle. He had 57 solo tackles in 3 years, 101 total (accroding to wikipedia).

On Wikipedia They list Raji as having 13 tackles his freshman year, 27 his sophomore year, and 63 his junior year without giving any stats his senior year, and giving him a total of 99 tackles...even though if you total his frosh-junior year, that total is 103 tackles, which is more than what they say is his total amount is including his senior year. So I'm curious where you're getting stats from so I can see those. Wikipedia isn't a creditable source.

[Harlan Huckleby]

As an expert evaluator of the nuances of defensive line play, I say Raji is perfectly suited to playing over nose, or as we experts put it "in the 1 gap." He's quick, stout, slippery, short. why the fuck move him out to the end?

[Pugger]

Well they must have said that mid season. Poe in 2011: 33 tackles, 8 TFLs, 1 sack, 1 FF

Raji over 4 years: 99 Tackles, 23 TFLs, 9 sacks
Poe over 3 years: 101 Tackles, 21.5 TFLs, 5 sacks

Raji played in the ACC conference and Poe in the Conference USA. Big difference in competition, no?

[Fritz]

I wonder if anyone's ever thought of scouting the Japanese sumo wrestling circuit for a nose tackle.

I mean, if all you need is someone to take up space and blockers and hold his ground, these guys might be just the ticket.

And I guess I thought that's what Poe would do - suck up blockers and eat up space. But I guess there's more to it than that.

[ND72]

Raji played in the ACC conference and Poe in the Conference USA. Big difference in competition, no?

Poe was on a 2-10 Conference USA team to add to it.

[KYPack]

I've been thinking about this move for some time. To me, having Raji play the zero tech is like hitching a race horse to a milk wagon. Not only that, Raji isn't very good at nose, either. My brother said he saw a site that rated Raji as the lowest rated NT in the NFL.

I'd like to see Raji at a 5 tech on the right side myself. All the LT's would have to account for him and it would open up things for whoever the ROLB is. Raji's quick and a real slasher. RDE just seems like a natural spot for him.

Poe? This kid doesn't take plays off, he takes 2 out of 3 plays off. If he keeps his approach, he will get blown off the field in the NFL.

Maybe uncle TT has an NT on his super secret board that will allow us to do this move.

I hope so.

[ND72]

I've been thinking about this move for some time. To me, having Raji play the zero tech is like hitching a race horse to a milk wagon. Not only that, Raji isn't very good at nose, either. My brother said he saw a site that rated Raji as the lowest rated NT in the NFL.

I'd like to see Raji at a 5 tech on the right side myself. All the LT's would have to account for him and it would open up things for whoever the ROLB is. Raji's quick and a real slasher. RDE just seems like a natural spot for him.

Poe? This kid doesn't take plays off, he takes 2 out of 3 plays off. If he keeps his approach, he will get blown off the field in the NFL.

Maybe uncle TT has an NT on his super secret board that will allow us to do this move.

I hope so.

Raji is by FAR better at NT than at the DE position. 2010, super bowl year, he played the nose and was a force. 2011 he was put back at a DE spot, and many felt he disappeared. the biggest reason they moved Pickett back was because they felt as a defense they were better with Pickett at nose than him at DE, and that Raji was fine in either position. Can't believe Raji would be considered the lowest rated NT when his best season was when they had him at the Nose spot.

[Scott Campbell]

As an expert evaluator of the nuances of defensive line play, I say Raji is perfectly suited to playing over nose, or as we experts put it "in the 1 gap." He's quick, stout, slippery, short. why the fuck move him out to the end?


I want to see him drop into coverage more.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wonder if anyone's ever thought of scouting the Japanese sumo wrestling circuit for a nose tackle.
I know you're a joke, I mean you're joking, but this might actually work.

Heavy weight wrestlers often make excellent nose tackles. Why, how long has it been since I reminded you of my Tim Krumerie story?

[denverYooper]

Raji is by FAR better at NT than at the DE position. 2010, super bowl year, he played the nose and was a force. 2011 he was put back at a DE spot, and many felt he disappeared. the biggest reason they moved Pickett back was because they felt as a defense they were better with Pickett at nose than him at DE, and that Raji was fine in either position. Can't believe Raji would be considered the lowest rated NT when his best season was when they had him at the Nose spot.

That site was likely PFF. They constantly harped on Raji for "just leaning on guys" last year. While he did not have as good a year last year with so little help, I am of the mind that what he was asked to do may have, at times, looked like "leaning on" someone.

[3irty1]

Are you getting those stats from Wikipedia? Official senior year stats has him listed as 28 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 TFL, and 1 FF. Wikipedia has a completely different number, 33 tackles, 8 TFL, 2 Sacks, 1FF. And, most networks only list solo tackles, not total tackles since you can jump on a pile and get credit for a tackle. He had 57 solo tackles in 3 years, 101 total (accroding to wikipedia).

On Wikipedia They list Raji as having 13 tackles his freshman year, 27 his sophomore year, and 63 his junior year without giving any stats his senior year, and giving him a total of 99 tackles...even though if you total his frosh-junior year, that total is 103 tackles, which is more than what they say is his total amount is including his senior year. So I'm curious where you're getting stats from so I can see those. Wikipedia isn't a creditable source.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2009/player/404/1024683/tackleforloss/split.html

Tackles aren't an official stat I believe so I can see the difference between sources. Where did you get yours?

[swede]

I wonder if anyone's ever thought of scouting the Japanese sumo wrestling circuit for a nose tackle.

I mean, if all you need is someone to take up space and blockers and hold his ground, these guys might be just the ticket.

And I guess I thought that's what Poe would do - suck up blockers and eat up space. But I guess there's more to it than that.

The Packers tried that experiment with Kimoshi Itakowa back in training camp of '83. He managed a fair amount of pressure against the middle of the pocket, but they cut him after the linebackers complained about salt getting in their eyes.

[pbmax]

Raji did not have a good year in 2011 and to my eyes (which means I could have missed it) it did not matter whether he was at Nose, 3 or 5 tech. He would just get run out of his gap and surrendered too much ground to double teams. He finally stood his ground in the Giants game.

If it was simply a struggle when he was out of position, he needs to go back to nose. I think he could handle the 3 tech. Would prefer someone else at 5.

[3irty1]

This is getting confusing. Raji plays 2 different position. NT in our 2-gap 3-4 defense but more commonly he is one of two interior lineman for our 2-4, neither of which is really a NT position. Raji is a decent NT although no better than Pickett was in 2009 IMO. What makes him special is that he also has value on 3rd down since he is lb-for-lb one of the most explosive players in the NFL and can get into a gap and reset the line of scrimmage.

Poe offers the same value. He's an ideal body for a 3-4, 2-gap NT but has value on 3rd down as well. For our purposes there really isn't a position he couldn't play. He could be Raji, Pickett, or Green in our 3-4. He could be Raji or Pickett/Jenkins in either our run-stuffing or pass-rushing version of the 2-4. Tremendous value for a defensive coordinator with guy like Poe.