TT acknowledges dysfunction of front seven

[wist43]

1) Nick Perry (OLB)
2) Jerel Worthy (DT)
2) Casey Hayward (CB)
4) Mike Daniels (nickel pass rush, base DE rotation)
4) Jerron McMillian (S)
5) Terrell Manning (OLB)
7) Andrew Datko (OT)
7) BJ Coleman (QB)

First 6 picks all on defense, and 4 of the 6 front seven players. The 2012 GBP draft is the closest any of us will ever come to seeing TT admit that he has a completely dead area of his roster. To his credit, TT went all-in on fixing the problem; he manuevered around for value, and came out of this draft with one of the most critical portions of any teams roster addressed, if not fixed.

Our front seven has been dysfunctional for many years, going back to before the switch to the 3-4; at which time TT said we'd transition body type over the next few drafts; but that didn't happen.

For my money, TT took one half way decent swing at the problem in '09 when he took Raji and Matthews, but he has paid scant attention to body type and sub package specialties since changing fronts; and the results have been obviously dismal.

Perry will be counted on to bring heat off the edge; Worthy will be counted on as a rotational guy with the flexibility to stop-gap inside; Daniels can also rotate outside, but his biggest contribution should be felt on pass rush; and Manning is the type of projection/transitional guy with upside that you're looking to develop behind the starters.

Even if these guys don't turn out to be world-beaters, I still like the approach.

Kuddo's to Ted for acknowledging that his front seven, as it existed, was completely ineffective and dysfunctional. TT saw it, and set about fixing it. Capers at least has some material to work with now.

Love the Daniels pick... explosive 280-290 lb pass rusher?? Welcome to the wonderful world of 3-4 sub-packages - and more importantly, welcome to Green Bay.

Nice draft!!

[Joemailman]

Jarius Wynn and C.J. Wilson are but a memory.

[HarveyWallbangers]

As usual, wist goes overboard with the hyperbole, but I think anybody can acknowledge that they needed help in the front 7. I still think we have 5 of the 7 pieces in Pickett, Raji, Matthews, Hawk, and Bishop necessary to have a championship caliber defense, and hopefully the other two spots have been solved. Now, we really need something to happen at safety to rebound to a 2010 level.

[Lurker64]

Jarius Wynn and C.J. Wilson are but a memory.

I think one of our 6th or 7th round DL (Wynn, Wilson, or Guy) makes the roster somehow. Possibly to be cut after Neal gets unsuspended though.

[Patler]

First 6 picks all on defense, and 4 of the 6 front seven players. The 2012 GBP draft is the closest any of us will ever come to seeing TT admit that he has a completely dead area of his roster. To his credit, TT went all-in on fixing the problem; he manuevered around for value, and came out of this draft with one of the most critical portions of any teams roster addressed, if not fixed.

Our front seven has been dysfunctional for many years, going back to before the switch to the 3-4; at which time TT said we'd transition body type over the next few drafts; but that didn't happen.

For my money, TT took one half way decent swing at the problem in '09 when he took Raji and Matthews, but he has paid scant attention to body type and sub package specialties since changing fronts; and the results have been obviously dismal.

Perry will be counted on to bring heat off the edge; Worthy will be counted on as a rotational guy with the flexibility to stop-gap inside; Daniels can also rotate outside, but his biggest contribution should be felt on pass rush; and Manning is the type of projection/transitional guy with upside that you're looking to develop behind the starters.

Even if these guys don't turn out to be world-beaters, I still like the approach.

Kuddo's to Ted for acknowledging that his front seven, as it existed, was completely ineffective and dysfunctional. TT saw it, and set about fixing it. Capers at least has some material to work with now.



The front 7 represents about 2/3 of the positions on defense. The fact that 2/3 of the defensive draft picks were front 7 players is meaningless. It is what it should be, on average.

[Lurker64]

The front 7 represents about 2/3 of the positions on defense. The fact that 2/3 of the defensive draft picks were front 7 players is meaningless. It is what it should be, on average.

TT did basically spend one draft pick on each position in this defense (OLB, DE, CB, Nickel DT, S, ILB). He just needed a NT and he would have had the whole set.

[smuggler]

The secondary needed attention, also, with Collins being shown the door and Woodson aging.

[wist43]

The front 7 represents about 2/3 of the positions on defense. The fact that 2/3 of the defensive draft picks were front 7 players is meaningless. It is what it should be, on average.

Patler, the Packers 2012 draft feels more like Wolfe's 1999 draft when he realized he some serious holes to fill at DB and he went DB, DB, DB right out the gate. 2 of the guys couldn't play (Edwards and Vinson), but it all worked out in the end, and the problem was, for the most part, fixed.

If you want to try to make the argument that the 2011 Packers front seven was any better than an average HS team, then by all means, sing that tune my friend.

Unfortunately for you PollyAnna's, TT saw the writing on the wall and seems intent on running the previous set of pretenders out of town on a rail... It seems next to impossible for you guys to admit that our defense absolutely sucked last year; so impossible in fact, that you can't even acknowledge that Ted did exactly what I thought he should do, and is running the old guard out of town, and bringing in fresh troops.

Really, it's not hard to do when you focus... look in the mirror and say it s-l-o-w-l-y, "o-u-r/d-e-f-e-n-s-e/s-u-p-e-r/s-u-c-k-e-d"...

Say it slowly so you can learn to pronounce the words correctly... once you say it a few times, it becomes much easier. Just takes some practice.

[wist43]

As usual, wist goes overboard with the hyperbole, but I think anybody can acknowledge that they needed help in the front 7. I still think we have 5 of the 7 pieces in Pickett, Raji, Matthews, Hawk, and Bishop necessary to have a championship caliber defense, and hopefully the other two spots have been solved. Now, we really need something to happen at safety to rebound to a 2010 level.

Good grief, lol...

You guys just never get it, do ya... "we have 5 of 7 pieces" in place?? Really??

Since when is any "front seven" made up of seven players?? You have sub packages and rotations to account for. If you can't rotate in competent players, then you don't have "5 of 7" filled, do you?? And of the front seven players that TT brought in, none play, or are projected to play ILB. ILB is the most static of all of those front seven positions - so 2 of your 5 examples are drawn from the least impactful position, ILB.

We need 3-4 DE base rotation guys; we need 2 NT's; we need 3-4 sub package interior pass rushers; we need a stud pass rush presence from the OLB position opposite Matthews; and we need depth/development behind the starting LB'ing corp. That's about 15 guys that need to be producing for you every Sunday - and we have how many?? 5??

Did you guys hear Chris Berman after the Daniels pick??

"... we kept watching the Packers, and kept thinking - they can't be that bad on defense, can they"?? Of course his question was rhetorical, and the answer was obvious to everyone except PackerRats homers, the answere was "yes, they are that bad".

And TT's 2012 draft is an acknowledgement that TT understands that his front seven is all but dead... he went quite a ways to fixing it in this draft though.

[smuggler]

The fact that TT only took Worthy at DE makes me suspect he still believes in Neal. I know we also took Mike Daniels, but he's a straight penetration DE for nickel and dime situations and not an every down DE in our 3-4. Make no mistake, the crippling issue with our D last year was mostly caused by the DL's inability to generate any pressure. We've got Daniels now as a jacknife for passing situations, Worthy as a DE with enough wiggle to get to the QB occasionally, and hopefully a healthy Neal on the other side to collapse the pocket so Matthews and Perry can hit home.

[wist43]

The fact that TT only took Worthy at DE makes me suspect he still believes in Neal. I know we also took Mike Daniels, but he's a straight penetration DE for nickel and dime situations and not an every down DE in our 3-4. Make no mistake, the crippling issue with our D last year was mostly caused by the DL's inability to generate any pressure. We've got Daniels now as a jacknife for passing situations, Worthy as a DE with enough wiggle to get to the QB occasionally, and hopefully a healthy Neal on the other side to collapse the pocket so Matthews and Perry can hit home.

Of course Neal is going to have to stay in the mix... he's not out of lives yet. Were he a street FA?? He'd have been long gone. As a 2nd round draft choice, he'll get at least few "one more chances". Same thing with Harrell... the only thing that kept him around as long as he was, was his draft status. On being a prospect?? I think everyone could see pretty early on he was a bust... time and multiple life lines didn't change that.

I'm hoping this 2012 draft can finally be the real beginning of building an attack 3-4 defense. Until this draft, the Packers really haven't made an all-out committment to the 3-4 they switched to 4 years ago. I had hoped that the '09 draft that brought us Raji and Matthews would be the beginning of actually executing that transition, but TT picked those 2 guys 3 years ago and then just seemed to forget he had a 3-4 defense to feed. We've been stuck with the likes of Wynn, Wilson, Green, Muir, Zombo, Jones, and Walden ever since - while TT couldn't wait to run our 2nd/3rd best front seven player (Jenkins) out of town.

The faith in Neal was misplaced, and as I've said, I'm guilty of that too... but the writing is on the wall. If a guy can't play, a guy can't play. If a guy doesn't fit the scheme, he doesn't fit the scheme. Hopefully TT will go into next years draft and go to work on the front seven again... then maybe we can get on, and stay on track defensively.

Taking Perry at OLB, along with Worthy and Daniels, goes a long way toward turning our defense around.

[sheepshead]

Patler, the Packers 2012 draft feels more like Wolfe's 1999 draft when he realized he some serious holes to fill at DB and he went DB, DB, DB right out the gate. 2 of the guys couldn't play (Edwards and Vinson), but it all worked out in the end, and the problem was, for the most part, fixed.

If you want to try to make the argument that the 2011 Packers front seven was any better than an average HS team, then by all means, sing that tune my friend.

Unfortunately for you PollyAnna's, TT saw the writing on the wall and seems intent on running the previous set of pretenders out of town on a rail... It seems next to impossible for you guys to admit that our defense absolutely sucked last year; so impossible in fact, that you can't even acknowledge that Ted did exactly what I thought he should do, and is running the old guard out of town, and bringing in fresh troops.

Really, it's not hard to do when you focus... look in the mirror and say it s-l-o-w-l-y, "o-u-r/d-e-f-e-n-s-e/s-u-p-e-r/s-u-c-k-e-d"...

Say it slowly so you can learn to pronounce the words correctly... once you say it a few times, it becomes much easier. Just takes some practice.

It sucked.

[mraynrand]

the answer was obvious to everyone except PackerRats homers

:roll:

That's right, no one except you at Packerrats thought the defense sucked. :roll:

[Scott Campbell]

Every team has roster holes, and areas that need improvement. And there will be holes in the 2012 roster too. But it's all relative. Especially when your team goes 15-2.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jarius Wynn and C.J. Wilson are but a memory.
Howard Green is not even remembered

[Harlan Huckleby]

I still think we have 5 of the 7 pieces in Pickett, Raji, Matthews, Hawk, and Bishop necessary to have a championship caliber defense. OK, but you need about 10 pieces to play significant snaps, so they were half way there.

[Pugger]

Jarius Wynn and C.J. Wilson are but a memory.

With any luck...

Maybe now we can cut Walden during TC too.

[Pugger]

Patler, the Packers 2012 draft feels more like Wolfe's 1999 draft when he realized he some serious holes to fill at DB and he went DB, DB, DB right out the gate. 2 of the guys couldn't play (Edwards and Vinson), but it all worked out in the end, and the problem was, for the most part, fixed.

If you want to try to make the argument that the 2011 Packers front seven was any better than an average HS team, then by all means, sing that tune my friend.

Unfortunately for you PollyAnna's, TT saw the writing on the wall and seems intent on running the previous set of pretenders out of town on a rail... It seems next to impossible for you guys to admit that our defense absolutely sucked last year; so impossible in fact, that you can't even acknowledge that Ted did exactly what I thought he should do, and is running the old guard out of town, and bringing in fresh troops.

Really, it's not hard to do when you focus... look in the mirror and say it s-l-o-w-l-y, "o-u-r/d-e-f-e-n-s-e/s-u-p-e-r/s-u-c-k-e-d"...

Say it slowly so you can learn to pronounce the words correctly... once you say it a few times, it becomes much easier. Just takes some practice.

:lol:

Unless we got turnovers last season we couldn't stop anybody. The real reason we were 15-1 is because we have the best player in the league playing at the most valuable position in today's pass happy league. Last season the Gmen sucked until their D linemen got heathy and started to raise havoc on the gridiron. It didn't help that we let Eli sit in the pocket with enough time to read War and Peace while he surveyed our porous defense in that painful playoff game a few short months ago.

[mmmdk]

I strongly expect DE Anthony Hargrove to be in the mix; he's produced his whole career and is still only 28 years old. Btw, when will the hammer fall on the bounty for Saints players?

[Scott Campbell]

I strongly expect DE Anthony Hargrove to be in the mix; he's produced his whole career and is still only 28 years old. Btw, when will the hammer fall on the bounty for Saints players?


They said during the draft it would come down next week. Though they've been saying "next week" for the last month.

[HarveyWallbangers]

OK, but you need about 10 pieces to play significant snaps, so they were half way there.

Four of the guys I mentioned play 80%+ of the snaps and guys like C.J. Wilson, D.J. Smith, and Mike Neal (if he's healthy) are good enough to play 20% of the snaps. Most teams don't have all starter caliber backups as part of their rotation. I think you guys are making it overly complicated. If Perry and Worthy are as good as we are hoping they are and Hargrove doesn't get suspended for too long, then I think the front seven is going to be good. I worry about a backup for Pickett and Raji since Green is gone. Other than that, the front seven looks good IF Perry and Worthy are as good as we all hope they will be.

[RashanGary]

If this means we're giving up on Erik Walden, Jarius Wynn and CJ Wilson, I'll burn Ted's house down.

Our front 7 was fine. Fuck you all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

For me, Walden and Wynn have worn out their welcome. Zombo and Jones can fight it out for backup OLB. I like Francois more than the three guys we had at ROLB, so hopefully Francois can make the team as backup OLB with Smith and Manning at backup ILB.

I still think C.J. Wilson can be a good backup DE.

There will be some interesting battles.

DL Pickett, Raji, Worthy, Hargrove with Wilson, Muir, Daniels, Wynn, Guy fighting for probably two spots. We still need a Howard Green type backup at NT. I wonder if we look to bring him back now.

OLB Matthews and Perry with So'oto, Jones, Zombo, Lattimore, and Walden fighting for two or three spots.

ILB Bishop, Hawk, and Smith with Manning and Francois fighting for one spot.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Four of the guys I mentioned play 80%+ of the snaps and guys like C.J. Wilson, D.J. Smith, and Mike Neal (if he's healthy) are good enough to play 20% of the snaps.

On the D-line, you need 5 guys who are starter quality. Maybe you have some young players who are inconsistent, but they can threaten. Other teams have 5 or 6 good players on D-line.

All the backups were inferior at linebacker and D-line last season, IMO. D.J. Smith was OK.

[ND72]

If this means we're giving up on Erik Walden, Jarius Wynn and CJ Wilson, I'll burn Ted's house down.

Our front 7 was fine. Fuck you all.

Are you being serious?

[Upnorth]

Wist, our defence sucked in 2011. If it can return to one of the best in the league like 2010 or 2009 can you say our defense is good?

[smuggler]

Are you being serious?

He's trolling. No way anybody comes out and stands up for Wilson and Wynn, who didn't do shit last year.

[Freak Out]

Daniels is going to be a badass in this Capers defense.

[3irty1]

Wynn hasn't worn out his welcome for me at all. I thought he stepped his game up big for us last year. He'll be a TOUGH out in camp.

Anyways, wist you're completely exaggerating. This defense is a season removed from being championship caliber. The defense decayed last year due to a regression in individual efforts plus nasty injuries to Collins, Neal, and Williams. I considered OLB the biggest need last season and it wasn't addressed but there was at least strong promise from Walden, Zombo, and Jones at times. The only reason you're seeing this as an admonition of disfunction is because you were 180 degrees wrong on your outrageous claim that Ted doesn't care about the defense and would spend his top picks on offense. Everyone else knew this draft would be defense heavy as the majority of picks in an offensively heavy draft wouldn't even make the team.

[Joemailman]

Daniels is going to be a badass in this Capers defense.

If he makes the team. Seems to me he fills pretty much the same role as Hargrove. Provides an inside pass rush. When you only keep probably 6 DL, you don't have room for a lot of specialists. I'm not sure both Daniels and Hargrove can make the team. Hargrove could get suspended though.

[3irty1]

For me, Walden and Wynn have worn out their welcome. Zombo and Jones can fight it out for backup OLB. I like Francois more than the three guys we had at ROLB, so hopefully Francois can make the team as backup OLB with Smith and Manning at backup ILB.

I still think C.J. Wilson can be a good backup DE.

There will be some interesting battles.

DL Pickett, Raji, Worthy, Hargrove with Wilson, Muir, Daniels, Wynn, Guy fighting for probably two spots. We still need a Howard Green type backup at NT. I wonder if we look to bring him back now.

OLB Matthews and Perry with So'oto, Jones, Zombo, Lattimore, and Walden fighting for two or three spots.

ILB Bishop, Hawk, and Smith with Manning and Francois fighting for one spot.

My bet is on a DL of Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove, Daniels, Muir, and Wynn. That gives 2 run stuffers (Pickett, Muir), 3 pass-rushing specialists (Hargrove, Daniels, Wynn), and 2 that can do both (Worthy, Raji). Pickett and probably also Muir can spell Raji at NT, I don't think we need another Howard Green type. Worthy and Muir should lock that up.

With the LB we have a couple of guys with versatility too. Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith, Manning, So'oto, Walden, and Jones is my guess. Manning, Walden, and Jones can all play any of the positions. Jones gets a lean over some others for special teams play and the skill set of being decent in coverage.

[wist43]

Wist, our defence sucked in 2011. If it can return to one of the best in the league like 2010 or 2009 can you say our defense is good?

Sure, I know good defense when I see it... I love watching good defense - which is why I make an effort to watch the dominant 3-4 teams when they're on prime time, i.e. Pitt, Balt, etc. Being a Packer fan, and living in WI, good defense simply isn't much of a priority. It's all about offense here, and try to plug the holes on defense as you go.

12 years ago or so I watched an interview with Brian Billick and he talked about how in Balt they arrived at the decisions, structured the defense, selected the players, and tweaked their scheme to play to the strengths of their players. Hearing their strategy and logic behind it, certainly broadened my understanding of how to build a defense.

Baltimore has been a great defensive team for many years... they're fun to watch. Yes, 13-10 football is fun to watch ;)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wynn hasn't worn out his welcome for me at all. I thought he stepped his game up big for us last year. He'll be a TOUGH out in camp.

Wynn started out strong and Wilson started slow in training camp--which was surprising to me. However, by the end of the year Wilson was the better player. I think he has more upside than Wynn.

[Patler]

If you want to try to make the argument that the 2011 Packers front seven was any better than an average HS team, then by all means, sing that tune my friend.

Unfortunately for you PollyAnna's, TT saw the writing on the wall and seems intent on running the previous set of pretenders out of town on a rail... It seems next to impossible for you guys to admit that our defense absolutely sucked last year; so impossible in fact, that you can't even acknowledge that Ted did exactly what I thought he should do, and is running the old guard out of town, and bringing in fresh troops.

Really, it's not hard to do when you focus... look in the mirror and say it s-l-o-w-l-y, "o-u-r/d-e-f-e-n-s-e/s-u-p-e-r/s-u-c-k-e-d"...

Say it slowly so you can learn to pronounce the words correctly... once you say it a few times, it becomes much easier. Just takes some practice.

When the hell did I EVER say anything about the D-line being good, average or anything but poor last year? I've been one of only a small number who have been unwilling to give Raji a "pass" because he played a lot of snaps in 2011. I have said he regressed, and I have expressed concern that 2010 was the anomaly, because 2011 looked a lot like his rookie season.

I also wrote early in the 2011 season that I was concerned that the 2010 defensive result was from all too many of the defensive players having "career years" at the same time, something not likely to be repeated, ever, with the same players. I said Raji, Hawk, Williams, Shields, Peprah and others might never again be as good as they were in 2010. I was told at that time that I was foolish, it was still very early in the season, everyone had "reasons" for their decline in performance (injuries and the like) and by the end of the year the defense would right itself.

My comment to YOU was simply that your analysis is flawed. Picking 4 front seven players in 6 defensive selections shows absolutely no increased concern about the front seven over the rest of the defense because about four of every six defensive players is a front seven guy anyway. My ONLY comment to you was about your "4 of 6" argument. I absolutely said nothing about the defense being good in 2011.

Your arguments about the front seven are not supported by the "4 of 6" argument. Focus on something better, like the overall defense and "6 of 8" in the current draft, or the fact that TT found it necessary to use two picks for one so often, to get defensive players better than those who would fall to him at his regular picks.

I find it interesting that TT has now traded up 6 times in GB, all six times to get a player for the defense.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My bet is on a DL of Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove, Daniels, Muir, and Wynn. That gives 2 run stuffers (Pickett, Muir), 3 pass-rushing specialists (Hargrove, Daniels, Wynn), and 2 that can do both (Worthy, Raji). Pickett and probably also Muir can spell Raji at NT, I don't think we need another Howard Green type. Worthy and Muir should lock that up.

With the LB we have a couple of guys with versatility too. Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith, Manning, So'oto, Walden, and Jones is my guess. Manning, Walden, and Jones can all play any of the positions. Jones gets a lean over some others for special teams play and the skill set of being decent in coverage.

My early guess

DL - Raji, Pickett, Worthy, Hargrove. I think it's Daniels vs. Wynn for inside pass rusher in subpackages. If Daniels shows anything, I think he gets the nod. I think it's Neal vs. Wilson for a backup DE spot. That's a crapshoot. I don't know what will happen with Neal. I think they'll keep Wilson at least until Neal gets back. Muir is around in case others disappoint or we get injuries. Since they have more decent players with the addition of Hargrove, Muir, Worthy, and Daniels they may keep one more than they usually do. If a position is strong, Thompson has shown he'll go with a bit of an unbalanced roster.

LB - Matthews, Perry, Bishop, Hawk, Smith. Manning vs. Francois for one backup ILB spot. Francois showed a bit of potential last year though. That's a bit of a tossup. Maybe they keep 5 ILBs if Manning or Francois show the ability to play spot duty at OLB. Then, it's Walden, Jones, Zombo, So'oto, and Lattimore fighting for probably a couple of spots. I couldn't even guess how that will end up. I'd like to see So'oto improve and get a spot. Then, whomever has the best camp amongst the rest.

[pbmax]

Four of the guys I mentioned play 80%+ of the snaps and guys like C.J. Wilson, D.J. Smith, and Mike Neal (if he's healthy) are good enough to play 20% of the snaps. Most teams don't have all starter caliber backups as part of their rotation. I think you guys are making it overly complicated. If Perry and Worthy are as good as we are hoping they are and Hargrove doesn't get suspended for too long, then I think the front seven is going to be good. I worry about a backup for Pickett and Raji since Green is gone. Other than that, the front seven looks good IF Perry and Worthy are as good as we all hope they will be.

This is the part of the equation that deserves to be watched. With the exception of Perry and maybe Worthy, none of those draft picks will be starting and I would be stunned if Worthy started any in base 3-4. wist is talking about lowing up the entire defense, but that is not what this draft was about. It was about pass rush.

And McCarthy has talked about using sub packages less.

If M3 is not blowing smoke, the pass rush heavy draft will be fighting for a small number of roster spots.

Think about a 25 man D.

*Raji
*Pickett
*Neal
*Wilson
*Green
*Wynn
Guy
Worthy
Daniels
Hargrove
Muir
Jonny Jones?

Worthy could easily take Wilson's spot and only gives up an inch, plus he is heavier and better. But Daniels gives up three inches to Wynn. Wynn struggled to hold up at DE as it was in base, Daniels will be hard pressed to do it. NT will be interesting. Pickett can backup Raji, obviously, but Raji rarely comes off the field since he can pressure. If Raji does not have to take every snap in nickel, he will be better rested than previous years and Pickett as backup could work. But if one of them is unavailable, this new line gets very very small. There would be a temptation to keep Green. But then to keep Hargrove, you would have to carry seven.

*Matthews
*Bishop
*Hawk
*Walden
*Jones
*Zombo
*So'oto
*Smith
*Francois
*Lattimore
Perry
Manning

Carrying a smaller DL will make ILBs busier, but if that DLine is better, they may be happier for it. Two of So'oto, Walden and Zombo appear gone for Manning and Perry. Jones sticks for ST and the ability to play OLB without being a catastrophe in any one phase except pass rush, which is what the new guys are for. Manning is not as big as Hawk or Bishop and he and Smith would make for a tiny backup unit.


*Woodson
*Williams
*Burnett
*Shields
*Peprah
House
Bush
Levine
Jennings
McMillian
Hayward

I think Hayward is a shot across Shields bow for playing time, though Hayward's scouting report makes him sound more capable in the slot. House was hurt for too much of last year to be certain, but he might be the future as well outside and he is the only obvious candidate out there. Bush does everything but start and he almost got the nod over Shields late last year. The Packer will have to decide whether to keep 4 safeties (incl McMillian) and drop one of last year's developmentals (Jennings, Levine) or go heavy at corner to keep the more talented players. That would require two safeties from last year to be gone (assuming McMillian sticks) and would leave Wood, Williams, Shields, House, Hayward and Bush. If they keep 10, the a true NT backup might be the casualty.

Did this off the top of my head. I am sure there are errors of roster and counting. Feel free to correct.

[Bretsky]

Am I imagining this or has the coaching staff made metion of House needing to mature....or hinted at it ?

I thought part of the reason he fell last year is he has some screws loose

[HarveyWallbangers]

Raji didn't play as well in 2011 as 2010, and I don't give him a pass for the number of snaps he played last year, but I don't think he was nearly as bad as some have made him out to be. He was a rookie in 2009 playing a new position. He started off slow, but he was a good player by the end of rookie year. He was very good in 2010. I think the people around him made him look worse last year. He wasn't a world beater, but the lack of a good pass rushing DE or ROLB had a similar affect on him that it did on Matthews. You can double team two guys. You need to have a third and fourth pass rusher (like the Giants) to maximize the skills of Raji and Matthews. I expect Raji to rebound big-time in 2011.

[wist43]

Wynn hasn't worn out his welcome for me at all. I thought he stepped his game up big for us last year. He'll be a TOUGH out in camp.

Anyways, wist you're completely exaggerating. This defense is a season removed from being championship caliber. The defense decayed last year due to a regression in individual efforts plus nasty injuries to Collins, Neal, and Williams. I considered OLB the biggest need last season and it wasn't addressed but there was at least strong promise from Walden, Zombo, and Jones at times. The only reason you're seeing this as an admonition of disfunction is because you were 180 degrees wrong on your outrageous claim that Ted doesn't care about the defense and would spend his top picks on offense. Everyone else knew this draft would be defense heavy as the majority of picks in an offensively heavy draft wouldn't even make the team.

There was not a "stong promise" from Walden, Zombo, and Jones. I still had a smidgeon of hope for Walden, but I could tell even during our SB run that it was a mirage. All of those guys are short-term plugs that TT tried to convince himself were legit NFL starters. Way, way off base... not even close. TT majorly fucked up, realized it, and set about fixing it in this draft.

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much. TT definitely put that criticism to bed, and I'm glad he did.

10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

If I'm "exaggerating"; then TT is too... b/c he did everything I thought he needed to do. It remains to be seen if TT actually fixed a lot of defensive shortcomings, but at least he addressed the issues - seems I'm the only PR happy about that, lol...

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"........ Maybe if we had His Lordness deliver the draft pick announcements, then all you guys would feel warmier, fuzzier, hopier, changier?? ;)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Am I imagining this or has the coaching staff made metion of House needing to mature....or hinted at it ?

I thought part of the reason he fell last year is he has some screws loose

I think people just thought he was raw. That he needed to get physically stronger and improve in his technique. His rookie season shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I'm not willing to write him off yet.

[pbmax]

Wynn started out strong and Wilson started slow in training camp--which was surprising to me. However, by the end of the year Wilson was the better player. I think he has more upside than Wynn.

I might be mistaken, but I thought I saw a lot more Wynn at the end of the season in base and nickel than Wilson. Memory fail?

[Bretsky]

If he makes the team. Seems to me he fills pretty much the same role as Hargrove. Provides an inside pass rush. When you only keep probably 6 DL, you don't have room for a lot of specialists. I'm not sure both Daniels and Hargrove can make the team. Hargrove could get suspended though.


I'd be pretty surprised of both Hargrove and Daniels don't make it

Hargrove is superior IMO to the junk we put out there last year....aka....Green, Wynn, Wilson. Daniels should have a better future than that riff raff.

[Bretsky]

I think people just thought he was raw. That he needed to get physically stronger and improve in his technique. His rookie season shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I'm not willing to write him off yet.


I'm not willing to write him off at all either; I have good hopes for him and was happy when we let some of the junk like Pat Lee go...that should allow him to step up

[pbmax]

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much.

The first contention is wrong, its as evenly distributed attention as it could get. The second contention has definite merit. And I think the natural trouble teams have in getting pass rushers normally was magnified by Thompson trying to get larger at DE for the base D since Capers came on board.


10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? {pb snip}

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"..

So the draft of 2011 was an announcement that the Offense sucked?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I might be mistaken, but I thought I saw a lot more Wynn at the end of the season in base and nickel than Wilson. Memory fail?

I could have the memory fail, but I thought Wynn got the nod early because I remember being surprised that Wilson didn't take that step up after a decent rookie season. Then, by the end of the year Wilson was playing more.

[pbmax]

Am I imagining this or has the coaching staff made metion of House needing to mature....or hinted at it ?

I thought part of the reason he fell last year is he has some screws loose

House is the only one on the roster who would seem to be able to play outside CB on a regular basis beside Williams and Shields. And Shields is on notice as well.

[pbmax]

Sure, I know good defense when I see it... I love watching good defense - which is why I make an effort to watch the dominant 3-4 teams when they're on prime time, i.e. Pitt, Balt, etc. Being a Packer fan, and living in WI, good defense simply isn't much of a priority. It's all about offense here, and try to plug the holes on defense as you go.

12 years ago or so I watched an interview with Brian Billick and he talked about how in Balt they arrived at the decisions, structured the defense, selected the players, and tweaked their scheme to play to the strengths of their players. Hearing their strategy and logic behind it, certainly broadened my understanding of how to build a defense.

Baltimore has been a great defensive team for many years... they're fun to watch. Yes, 13-10 football is fun to watch ;)

My only nit to pick here is that Billick did not draft, construct or run the defense. So he may have witnessed how to construct one, but he didn't do any of it. He may have had a hand in selecting the coordinators though.

[Patler]

Patler, the Packers 2012 draft feels more like Wolfe's 1999 draft when he realized he some serious holes to fill at DB and he went DB, DB, DB right out the gate. 2 of the guys couldn't play (Edwards and Vinson), but it all worked out in the end, and the problem was, for the most part, fixed.

This feels nothing at all like that draft. Wolf used three top picks for one (maybe two) positions. That was desperation.
TT instead covered the entire defense; DE, inside rush specialist, OLB, ILB, CB and a safety. It is not desperation so much as recognition that the overall package on defense needs improvement. To repeat 1999, TT would have gone OLB, OLB, OLB, or DE, DE, DE. All in to improve one spot.

As for whether or not Vinson or Edwards could play, Vinson never had a chance to show if he could or not. Injuries (feet?) ended his career.
Antuan Edwards had actually worked himself into a somewhat decent player (not great), but was never the same after his knee injury. Even at that, when he was switched to safety he wasn't their worst d-back, but more injuries came in. Certainly not a memorable player, but not as bad as some others they have picked.

[pbmax]

The other problem with that 99 draft was that unless you count turning Vinson into Ahman Green as a 3 draft pick victory, it didn't work. As good as McKenzie was, he couldn't stop Moss. And Sherman still had to get Harris to man the other position.

[Guiness]

*Raji
*Pickett
*Neal
*Wilson
*Green
*Wynn
Guy
Worthy
Daniels
Hargrove
Muir
Jonny Jones?

Worthy could easily take Wilson's spot and only gives up an inch, plus he is heavier and better. But Daniels gives up three inches to Wynn. Wynn struggled to hold up at DE as it was in base, Daniels will be hard pressed to do it. NT will be interesting. Pickett can backup Raji, obviously, but Raji rarely comes off the field since he can pressure. If Raji does not have to take every snap in nickel, he will be better rested than previous years and Pickett as backup could work. But if one of them is unavailable, this new line gets very very small. There would be a temptation to keep Green. But then to keep Hargrove, you would have to carry seven.


Green is the really interesting one here, IMO. None of us seem to know what to make of his chances of making the team.

I think he's been put on notice, and needs to come to camp fighting for his job. If he looks great, he makes the team as the backup NT. If Green doesn't impress, we certainly have enough bodies to play DE, Pickett and Raji rotate at NT, with Pickett playing more limited snaps at DE.

[Patler]

Green is the really interesting one here, IMO. None of us seem to know what to make of his chances of making the team.

I think he's been put on notice, and needs to come to camp fighting for his job. If he looks great, he makes the team as the backup NT. If Green doesn't impress, we certainly have enough bodies to play DE, Pickett and Raji rotate at NT, with Pickett playing more limited snaps at DE.

Green isn't even signed, is he? I doubt they will even bring him into camp.

[pbmax]

He isn't on the Packer website. If Pickett starts at DE, that leaves a hole at NT I think. Muir perhaps? He is listed as 320, but I don't know if he has ever played NT before.

[Smeefers]

There was not a "stong promise" from Walden, Zombo, and Jones. I still had a smidgeon of hope for Walden, but I could tell even during our SB run that it was a mirage. All of those guys are short-term plugs that TT tried to convince himself were legit NFL starters. Way, way off base... not even close. TT majorly fucked up, realized it, and set about fixing it in this draft.

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much. TT definitely put that criticism to bed, and I'm glad he did.

10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

If I'm "exaggerating"; then TT is too... b/c he did everything I thought he needed to do. It remains to be seen if TT actually fixed a lot of defensive shortcomings, but at least he addressed the issues - seems I'm the only PR happy about that, lol...

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"........ Maybe if we had His Lordness deliver the draft pick announcements, then all you guys would feel warmier, fuzzier, hopier, changier?? ;)

Wist, you are such a visionary. You saw a road the packers needed to take and by God they took it. I am simply amazed. No one should ever consider contradicting what you say ever again. I don't even think they should allow anyone to post here but you, execpt of course if it's to agree with you. Ted Thompson knew our front 7 was the worst since the creation of the 3-4 defense. There was perhaps 1 or 2 guys who could play on that D though pretty much everyone sucked. Thankfully, TT finally realised this and decided that he would rather field a bunch of rookies out there (Which I too think is a great, great idea). I think your right.

Perry is definately starting at OLB. He'll play most of the time and our defense will improve because of it. He is at least going to be a NFL calibur player, unlike the schmucks we got in there now. We'll probably let all those other hose bags go (except for walden, he might have a little bit of potential).

At RE, it's going to be Worthy all day long. They don't even need to keep those other D-Bags that played that position last year. Not with worthy there. Who cares what kind of experience those 7th round guys got, screw them, toss em. We might want to keep Mike Neal, but with that 4 game suspension, he's going to have to be at least a pro bowl calibur player to take over for this NFL calibur player that we drafted. Those other guys don't deserve to wash gilbert brown's jock strap.

Now we all know what a shitty year Trammon Williams had last year. 4 INT's, 19 PD's and 58 Tackles? Jesus, he might as well be asking TT for his gold watch. He's lucky though, because Sam Shields played way... way, way way worse. He only had 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 38 tackles. Looks like he's back to special teams because we got ourselves a bonifide NFL calibur CB in Casey Hayword. I sure am glad TT decided to address how shitty our cornerbacks played by picking this guy up. He moved up to get him, you know that means TT thought that our DB's sucked monkey balls.

BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, your asses are currently on notice you fat tubs of shit. We got Mike Daniels and you guys are fucked. One of you is going to be riding the pine next year and I don't know why you didn't expect it. Did you see how shitty you played last year? You were part of a front 7 that was worse that a bunch of arthritic dress wearing shit eating cry babies Wist and I have ever seen. You were part of a D that sucked so bad, that it's fucking amazing that they didn't single handidly just hand every game we played to the opposition. I mean, I know we went 15-2 and I know we lost to the Giants because of drops and turn overs, but fuck you guys for being on such a piece of shit defense. You know what we did? We picked up a REAL NFL calibur defensive tackle in Mike Daniels. You guys are fucked. No way you can compete with that guy.

We're also lucky as hell we got someone to finally replace that worthless piece of shit Charlie Peprah. That guy sucks. I mean mega sucks, everyone here even agrees with it. That dude is so bad, he may be one of the sole reasons the packers D gave up so many yards last year and we all know that yardage is the absolute best way to determine how good a defense is. I mean, last year? 5 INT's 10 PD's and 78 tackles? He should be dragged out into the parking lot and shot in the knee caps every day at dawn for a performance like that. That's nowhere near Nick Collins' Pro Bowl numbers from 2010 - 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 53 tackles. I mean, Nick Collins created 2 Forced fumbles that year, Peprah? Big goose egg. Fuck that guy. We got Jerron McMillion now. Peprah's taking a walk.

Terrell Manning is going to be a great sub package player for this team. He'll probably push Walden back even farther on the depth chart. This guy is a real NFL calibur player and man am I real happy about that. See, TT doesn't draft for the future, he drafts for next season. These guys absolutely need to contribute and Jerron's no different. He's going to provide the kind of pass rush that Walden and Zombo couldn't even dream of. This guy is lightyears ahead of those other ass holes, he's a real NFL calibur guy, not like Zombo and Walden. They're pieces of shit who should be washing the floor.

I am so happy, just like Wist, that TT decided to do what Wist thought he should do. I'm glad he decided not to get any good players on offense at all, I would rather him take some 4th rounder (who's totally going to play a lot) for defense than some D-bag who probably won't even see the field on offense, even if that guy is better - And we all know that's what TT did. Just admit it guys. Don't make Wist and me rub your nose in it like you're a dog who shit in the living room. It just sucks when we have to do that (although it is kind of fun to use random facts to PROVE that we were right and you were wrong you idiots). I mean, I'm extatic that we got all these awesome guys who are obviously better than the guys we got now. I mean, with all these playmakers that we added, it's impossible not to say that TT was addressing specific needs and these guys are here to fill them.

[pbmax]

One way the Steelers solve the sub package dilemma is to play less of it. The Steelers play far more base and tend to sub out LBs for DBs when they do sub.

Hampton does come out for pass rush, though not always on early downs. Many of the pass rush specialists the Steelers carry are LBs and safeties, not DL.

The Packers would seem to be sticking with the 2-4-5, 2-3-6 and 3-3-5.

[gbgary]

our db's will be 100% better this year. we'll be a top 8 or better defense.

[Joemailman]

He isn't on the Packer website. If Pickett starts at DE, that leaves a hole at NT I think. Muir perhaps? He is listed as 320, but I don't know if he has ever played NT before.

Why can't Pickett be the starting LDE and the backup NT? Worthy plays LDE when Pickett needs a rest or when Pickett needs to spell Raji at NT. When you're only keeping probably 6 DL, can you afford 3 NT's?

[hoosier]

Wist, you are such a visionary. You saw a road the packers needed to take and by God they took it. I am simply amazed. No one should ever consider contradicting what you say ever again. I don't even think they should allow anyone to post here but you, execpt of course if it's to agree with you. Ted Thompson knew our front 7 was the worst since the creation of the 3-4 defense. There was perhaps 1 or 2 guys who could play on that D though pretty much everyone sucked. Thankfully, TT finally realised this and decided that he would rather field a bunch of rookies out there (Which I too think is a great, great idea). I think your right.

Perry is definately starting at OLB. He'll play most of the time and our defense will improve because of it. He is at least going to be a NFL calibur player, unlike the schmucks we got in there now. We'll probably let all those other hose bags go (except for walden, he might have a little bit of potential).

At RE, it's going to be Worthy all day long. They don't even need to keep those other D-Bags that played that position last year. Not with worthy there. Who cares what kind of experience those 7th round guys got, screw them, toss em. We might want to keep Mike Neal, but with that 4 game suspension, he's going to have to be at least a pro bowl calibur player to take over for this NFL calibur player that we drafted. Those other guys don't deserve to wash gilbert brown's jock strap.

Now we all know what a shitty year Trammon Williams had last year. 4 INT's, 19 PD's and 58 Tackles? Jesus, he might as well be asking TT for his gold watch. He's lucky though, because Sam Shields played way... way, way way worse. He only had 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 38 tackles. Looks like he's back to special teams because we got ourselves a bonifide NFL calibur CB in Casey Hayword. I sure am glad TT decided to address how shitty our cornerbacks played by picking this guy up. He moved up to get him, you know that means TT thought that our DB's sucked monkey balls.

BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, your asses are currently on notice you fat tubs of shit. We got Mike Daniels and you guys are fucked. One of you is going to be riding the pine next year and I don't know why you didn't expect it. Did you see how shitty you played last year? You were part of a front 7 that was worse that a bunch of arthritic dress wearing shit eating cry babies Wist and I have ever seen. You were part of a D that sucked so bad, that it's fucking amazing that they didn't single handidly just hand every game we played to the opposition. I mean, I know we went 15-2 and I know we lost to the Giants because of drops and turn overs, but fuck you guys for being on such a piece of shit defense. You know what we did? We picked up a REAL NFL calibur defensive tackle in Mike Daniels. You guys are fucked. No way you can compete with that guy.

We're also lucky as hell we got someone to finally replace that worthless piece of shit Charlie Peprah. That guy sucks. I mean mega sucks, everyone here even agrees with it. That dude is so bad, he may be one of the sole reasons the packers D gave up so many yards last year and we all know that yardage is the absolute best way to determine how good a defense is. I mean, last year? 5 INT's 10 PD's and 78 tackles? He should be dragged out into the parking lot and shot in the knee caps every day at dawn for a performance like that. That's nowhere near Nick Collins' Pro Bowl numbers from 2010 - 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 53 tackles. I mean, Nick Collins created 2 Forced fumbles that year, Peprah? Big goose egg. Fuck that guy. We got Jerron McMillion now. Peprah's taking a walk.

Terrell Manning is going to be a great sub package player for this team. He'll probably push Walden back even farther on the depth chart. This guy is a real NFL calibur player and man am I real happy about that. See, TT doesn't draft for the future, he drafts for next season. These guys absolutely need to contribute and Jerron's no different. He's going to provide the kind of pass rush that Walden and Zombo couldn't even dream of. This guy is lightyears ahead of those other ass holes, he's a real NFL calibur guy, not like Zombo and Walden. They're pieces of shit who should be washing the floor.

I am so happy, just like Wist, that TT decided to do what Wist thought he should do. I'm glad he decided not to get any good players on offense at all, I would rather him take some 4th rounder (who's totally going to play a lot) for defense than some D-bag who probably won't even see the field on offense, even if that guy is better - And we all know that's what TT did. Just admit it guys. Don't make Wist and me rub your nose in it like you're a dog who shit in the living room. It just sucks when we have to do that (although it is kind of fun to use random facts to PROVE that we were right and you were wrong you idiots). I mean, I'm extatic that we got all these awesome guys who are obviously better than the guys we got now. I mean, with all these playmakers that we added, it's impossible not to say that TT was addressing specific needs and these guys are here to fill them.

Nicely done. :-)

[pbmax]

just making it more complicated

[pbmax]

Why can't Pickett be the starting LDE and the backup NT? Worthy plays LDE when Pickett needs a rest or when Pickett needs to spell Raji at NT. When you're only keeping probably 6 DL, can you afford 3 NT's?

Derth of large bodies from the perspective of snaps and the risk of injury. Unless its Muir, there won't be another body for the nose. Its not that radical for a six lineman roster not to have 3 Noses on it, but the replacements are smaller.

[Upnorth]

In my opinion our d last year needed a cullen jenkins and a collins to be great like the two years proceeding 2011. If we got those two in our draft this D will go down as one of the forgotten greats like the 49ers D during the Montana years. A key to a great team that nobody talks about because look at the offense!

[Lurker64]

Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

I think a major difference between this year and previous years is that trading up was really cheap.

By comparison, in 2010 when we traded up for Morgan Burnett we received 71 for 86 and 122. In 2012 when we traded up for Casey Hawyard we received 62 for 90 and 163. We got a better pick (62 vs. 71) and a bigger trade up (28 spots vs. 15 spots) for a lower price (pick #163 versus pick #122). If you look at the chart, that's a really lopsided trade.

The other trade we made with New England was pretty lopsided by the chart too we got 163 for 197, 224, and 235. By the chart, the Patriots practically gave that pick away (27.2 for 13.6+3+1.9).

Even the trade with the Eagles was lopsided by the chart. #123 should be enough to turn #59 into #54, but the Eagles lost that trade by the equivalent value of a fifth round pick.

So there's something going on here. Maybe TT was trading with these teams based on past or future considerations (not picks), maybe the way teams value draft picks is changing dramatically, or maybe TT was just taking advantage of a buyer's market in which teams very much wanted to trade down in order to get any additional kind of asset, but these sorts of deals weren't necessarily available in previous years.

Compare, for example, the trade TT wrought in 2006 when the Pats traded up for Chad Jackson. New England got 36 for 52 and 75. By the chart, we gave 540 for 380+215. This year, when Philly traded from 51 for 59 and 123 they gave 390 for 310 +49.

[Cheesehead Craig]

:lol:

Unless we got turnovers last season we couldn't stop anybody. The real reason we were 15-1 is because we have the best player in the league playing at the most valuable position in today's pass happy league. Last season the Gmen sucked until their D linemen got heathy and started to raise havoc on the gridiron. It didn't help that we let Eli sit in the pocket with enough time to read War and Peace while he surveyed our porous defense in that painful playoff game a few short months ago.

You severely overrate Eli Manning if you think he can comprehend War and Peace

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think TT thought that after seeing the defense in 2009 and 2010 it didn't need much meddling. We had good players and the defense was allowing fewer than 19ppg, among the leaders in turnovers and also in sacks. So it would make sense to not meddle with what was working. Then 2011 came and we all saw that there were indeed big holes in depth and that some players simply weren't playing up to their previous levels. I won't go so far as saying the defense was dysfunctional and an abomination like wist, but that side of the ball clearly needed some upgrades. I agree with Patler that it was a perfect storm of sorts that players had outstanding seasons at the same time in 2010. Walden's big game vs Chicago, Sam Shields playing at an All-Pro level in the playoffs, Zombo actually producing, etc. Thing is, it seemed like many players were ascending instead of peaking which is what was found out.

TT certainly acknowledged that we needed some help on defense and I think the mostly defensive draft is indicative of that so I think wist has a point there. Again, I won't go so far as to say that it was a terrible unit that needs to have a major overhaul, but it certainly needed some help. I really love the potential of the guys picked though.

[wist43]

The other problem with that 99 draft was that unless you count turning Vinson into Ahman Green as a 3 draft pick victory, it didn't work. As good as McKenzie was, he couldn't stop Moss. And Sherman still had to get Harris to man the other position.

I'm not saying they were good trades, or good picks... my point is the amount of resources thrown at the problem.

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices. The point is that TT now, and Wolfe back when, recognized that the SS Packer was full of holes; and on draft day spared little expense in trying to address the problem.

Wolfe was quite candid about what he did, and why he did it. For what TT did this past WE? I think that speaks for itself.

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

Obviously last season got TT's attention... and he did what Wolfe did back in '99. He went all in with his resources, moved around, and used his first 10 choices as currency for a new defense - a defense that now has some personnel that actually fit the scheme.

Like I said, I have no idea if these players can play or not; what I'm applauding is recognition of the problem, marshalling resources to attack the problem, and then executing a plan that fundamentally addressed the problem.

Let's all hope these moves work out... we have a kickass offense, it would be a shame to see it go to waste b/c the Packers couldn't get their shit together on defense. This draft gives me hope that we are moving in the right direction though; so for me, all is well in Packerland today :)

[Upnorth]

I'm not saying they were good trades, or good picks... my point is the amount of resources thrown at the problem.

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices. The point is that TT now, and Wolfe back when, recognized that the SS Packer was full of holes; and on draft day spared little expense in trying to address the problem.

Wolfe was quite candid about what he did, and why he did it. For what TT did this past WE? I think that speaks for itself.

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

Obviously last season got TT's attention... and he did what Wolfe did back in '99. He went all in with his resources, moved around, and used his first 10 choices as currency for a new defense - a defense that now has some personnel that actually fit the scheme.

Like I said, I have no idea if these players can play or not; what I'm applauding is recognition of the problem, marshalling resources to attack the problem, and then executing a plan that fundamentally addressed the problem.

Let's all hope these moves work out... we have a kickass offense, it would be a shame to see it go to waste b/c the Packers couldn't get their shit together on defense. This draft gives me hope that we are moving in the right direction though; so for me, all is well in Packerland today :)

So both Wist and Bretsky are loving our draft. Why am I worried now...

[MJZiggy]

So both Wist and Bretsky are loving our draft. Why am I worried now...

I don't know, but it seems you have good reason...

[Scott Campbell]

Hell, for all I know, Perry, Worthy, Daniels, and Manning are all terrible choices.


Now THERE is the Wist we all know and love. Glad to see you're feeling better.

[Bretsky]

I don't know, but it seems you have good reason...


Historically............the picks I really loved were Brent Fullwood, Eddie Lee Ivory, and AJ Hawk

[pbmax]

I look at it as TT continuing what he started in 2009 when he began to reshape a 4-3 team into 3-4 team. TT got off to a good start with Raji and Matthews; but then only threw 1 high draft pick (Neal) at the transition in the next 2 years. Every other guy on the front seven was either a holdover from the 4-3, or low end spitballs. Pickett carried over and is adequate; TT couldn't wait to run Jenkins out of town; and the fact that Neal has been a bust to date certainly doesn't help; but you put all of that in a mixing bowl, whip it together and what you get is the 2012 Packer front seven - an undermanned, underpowered, miscast, dysfunctional mess.

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel. If you thought Capers was using mirrors and gimmicks in 2010, those will continue with the sub packages with Manning and Daniels if they play.

Honestly, this draft was exciting and confusing. I suspect that only two of these guys see much of the field and as such, the overall picture will not change as much as it seems. And Thompson might be back to looking for physical specimens in 2012.

And Wolf's draft was intended to stop Moss. It never worked. He would have been better off with two different 1st and 2nd round picks. Trying to address a problem and failing is worse than ignoring it. It costs extra picks to fail.

[wist43]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel. If you thought Capers was using mirrors and gimmicks in 2010, those will continue with the sub packages with Manning and Daniels if they play.

Honestly, this draft was exciting and confusing. I suspect that only two of these guys see much of the field and as such, the overall picture will not change as much as it seems. And Thompson might be back to looking for physical specimens in 2012.

And Wolf's draft was intended to stop Moss. It never worked. He would have been better off with two different 1st and 2nd round picks. Trying to address a problem and failing is worse than ignoring it. It costs extra picks to fail.

I really haven't had the time to research the players adequately, but my general perception at this point, based on watching a reasonable amount of game footage from last year on utube, and reading thru scouting reports I've found online - I have to say I'm encouraged.

Couple of projections there - Perry and Worthy. The first thing that jumped out to me about Perry, seeing him as an OLB, was that his change of direction skills were average at best. He has a very quick first step, and his hand use is okay, but not great. From the little I watched, he seemed to take good angles in pursuit, and had good football awareness. Think he would be most effective playing somewhere in the 255-265 range. Think he'll be fine, but opponents will certainly be looking to match him up with a back in coverage.

Worthy is not much of a projection positionally as his size and skill set can be put to use in any scheme. If he plays to his potential (the big IF), he could command double teams inside, and he can certainly anchor and eat up snaps at DE in base. The question mark on him is, of course, will he play?? It's scary to read quotes from a guy defending why he takes plays off. Get him in a good locker room environment, coach him up, and hopefully the light goes on for the kid. Talent wise?? He has the potential to be pro-bowl (RIP) player.

Daniels fits in subpackages as a pass rusher, and can play snaps at DE in some base packages. I really like his potential as an inside pass rusher. He is very explosive out of his stance and delivers a good shock with his hands. Reminds me a bigger John Randle; teams will have to account for him. I'm very hopeful that Daniels can infuse some life into our pass rush.

All of those players fit nicely into an attacking 3-4.

[woodbuck27]

1) Nick Perry (OLB)
2) Jerel Worthy (DT)
2) Casey Hayward (CB)
4) Mike Daniels (nickel pass rush, base DE rotation)
4) Jerron McMillian (S)
5) Terrell Manning (OLB)
7) Andrew Datko (OT)
7) BJ Coleman (QB)

First 6 picks all on defense, and 4 of the 6 front seven players. The 2012 GBP draft is the closest any of us will ever come to seeing TT admit that he has a completely dead area of his roster. To his credit, TT went all-in on fixing the problem; he manuevered around for value, and came out of this draft with one of the most critical portions of any teams roster addressed, if not fixed.

Our front seven has been dysfunctional for many years, going back to before the switch to the 3-4; at which time TT said we'd transition body type over the next few drafts; but that didn't happen.

For my money, TT took one half way decent swing at the problem in '09 when he took Raji and Matthews, but he has paid scant attention to body type and sub package specialties since changing fronts; and the results have been obviously dismal.

Perry will be counted on to bring heat off the edge; Worthy will be counted on as a rotational guy with the flexibility to stop-gap inside; Daniels can also rotate outside, but his biggest contribution should be felt on pass rush; and Manning is the type of projection/transitional guy with upside that you're looking to develop behind the starters.

Even if these guys don't turn out to be world-beaters, I still like the approach.

Kuddo's to Ted for acknowledging that his front seven, as it existed, was completely ineffective and dysfunctional. TT saw it, and set about fixing it. Capers at least has some material to work with now.

Love the Daniels pick... explosive 280-290 lb pass rusher?? Welcome to the wonderful world of 3-4 sub-packages - and more importantly, welcome to Green Bay.

Nice draft!!

and the winner is...drum roll.............

wist43

[Harlan Huckleby]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

Perry is the closest, but he already had a change of direction question and at 270, that isn't going to get better or an OLB. If he gets back to 260, I can seem him fitting nicely. Worthy is not an ideal physical specimen for DE, but he has enough talent to make it work, if that talent is applied on a regular basis. I think there is a chance he will flourish in time at 5 tech, but his body and body of work seem to say 4-3 DT.

Manning is small for ILB and Daniels would only seem suited for nickel.

I agree that it is a little confusing to see how these pieces fit. But TT saw them workout in person, so they must be closer physical fits than scouting reports indicate.

[Lurker64]

While I agree he needed a transfusion of talent for the pass rush, many of his picks seem to be a more natural fit for a 4-3 than a 3-4.

I think as time goes on what the modern "3-4" teams run will be virtually incomprehensible from the perspective of the classical Bum Phillips or Chuck Fairbanks models of the 3-4 defense. The original 3-4 defenses were designed to be ideally suited for stopping the run (since you have more big bodies up front, and your gaps are better managed). In the days when people believed they had to run the football and stop the run, that mattered. These are not those days. Dick LeBeau leveraged the formation into an "unpredictable pass rush" concept when he and Dom invented the Zone Blitz, but that's now just a standard trick in every DC's arsenal.

It's entirely likely that something like the 2-4-5 nickel that Dom ran extensively in 2010, or the hybrid 3-4/4-3 defense that Bellichick has been devising over the past few years is, in fact, the future of the "3-4" defense. In the modern NFL to stop good offenses, first and foremost you have to be able to stop teams from throwing the ball on you and the classic 2-gapping odd front is not really designed for that. So the challenge is to design and implement something that is.

One of the reasons, I believe, that the defense struggled mightily last year was that Dom basically relied on his toolbox form 2010 (which was rational, since that worked very well then) and the other teams figured out how to beat it in the offseason. It's up to Dom this offseason to adapt and come up with something to throw your better offenses for a loop. If nothing else, having players who can get at the quarterback in at least one way (even if it's only one way) are going to help you do that. Capers is at his best as an offensive coordinator when he's forced to innovate, in the past he's overseen a number of defensive declines because he's failed to do that. If nothing else, the pieces that Thompson has given him can be effective, but will not be very effective if Capers tries to fit square pegs in round holes. This could very well be a good thing.

[George Cumby]

Wist, you are such a visionary. You saw a road the packers needed to take and by God they took it. I am simply amazed. No one should ever consider contradicting what you say ever again. I don't even think they should allow anyone to post here but you, execpt of course if it's to agree with you. Ted Thompson knew our front 7 was the worst since the creation of the 3-4 defense. There was perhaps 1 or 2 guys who could play on that D though pretty much everyone sucked. Thankfully, TT finally realised this and decided that he would rather field a bunch of rookies out there (Which I too think is a great, great idea). I think your right.

Perry is definately starting at OLB. He'll play most of the time and our defense will improve because of it. He is at least going to be a NFL calibur player, unlike the schmucks we got in there now. We'll probably let all those other hose bags go (except for walden, he might have a little bit of potential).

At RE, it's going to be Worthy all day long. They don't even need to keep those other D-Bags that played that position last year. Not with worthy there. Who cares what kind of experience those 7th round guys got, screw them, toss em. We might want to keep Mike Neal, but with that 4 game suspension, he's going to have to be at least a pro bowl calibur player to take over for this NFL calibur player that we drafted. Those other guys don't deserve to wash gilbert brown's jock strap.

Now we all know what a shitty year Trammon Williams had last year. 4 INT's, 19 PD's and 58 Tackles? Jesus, he might as well be asking TT for his gold watch. He's lucky though, because Sam Shields played way... way, way way worse. He only had 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 38 tackles. Looks like he's back to special teams because we got ourselves a bonifide NFL calibur CB in Casey Hayword. I sure am glad TT decided to address how shitty our cornerbacks played by picking this guy up. He moved up to get him, you know that means TT thought that our DB's sucked monkey balls.

BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, your asses are currently on notice you fat tubs of shit. We got Mike Daniels and you guys are fucked. One of you is going to be riding the pine next year and I don't know why you didn't expect it. Did you see how shitty you played last year? You were part of a front 7 that was worse that a bunch of arthritic dress wearing shit eating cry babies Wist and I have ever seen. You were part of a D that sucked so bad, that it's fucking amazing that they didn't single handidly just hand every game we played to the opposition. I mean, I know we went 15-2 and I know we lost to the Giants because of drops and turn overs, but fuck you guys for being on such a piece of shit defense. You know what we did? We picked up a REAL NFL calibur defensive tackle in Mike Daniels. You guys are fucked. No way you can compete with that guy.

We're also lucky as hell we got someone to finally replace that worthless piece of shit Charlie Peprah. That guy sucks. I mean mega sucks, everyone here even agrees with it. That dude is so bad, he may be one of the sole reasons the packers D gave up so many yards last year and we all know that yardage is the absolute best way to determine how good a defense is. I mean, last year? 5 INT's 10 PD's and 78 tackles? He should be dragged out into the parking lot and shot in the knee caps every day at dawn for a performance like that. That's nowhere near Nick Collins' Pro Bowl numbers from 2010 - 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 53 tackles. I mean, Nick Collins created 2 Forced fumbles that year, Peprah? Big goose egg. Fuck that guy. We got Jerron McMillion now. Peprah's taking a walk.

Terrell Manning is going to be a great sub package player for this team. He'll probably push Walden back even farther on the depth chart. This guy is a real NFL calibur player and man am I real happy about that. See, TT doesn't draft for the future, he drafts for next season. These guys absolutely need to contribute and Jerron's no different. He's going to provide the kind of pass rush that Walden and Zombo couldn't even dream of. This guy is lightyears ahead of those other ass holes, he's a real NFL calibur guy, not like Zombo and Walden. They're pieces of shit who should be washing the floor.

I am so happy, just like Wist, that TT decided to do what Wist thought he should do. I'm glad he decided not to get any good players on offense at all, I would rather him take some 4th rounder (who's totally going to play a lot) for defense than some D-bag who probably won't even see the field on offense, even if that guy is better - And we all know that's what TT did. Just admit it guys. Don't make Wist and me rub your nose in it like you're a dog who shit in the living room. It just sucks when we have to do that (although it is kind of fun to use random facts to PROVE that we were right and you were wrong you idiots). I mean, I'm extatic that we got all these awesome guys who are obviously better than the guys we got now. I mean, with all these playmakers that we added, it's impossible not to say that TT was addressing specific needs and these guys are here to fill them.

repped

[Lurker64]

I think long term, Worthy's role is going to be Picket's gig, playing opposite the RT and providing some meat as well as some push.

This year though, at least for the first four games, we just need any competent football player who can provide some push at RE.

Best case scenario though is Neal becomes the player he flashed before he got hurt in his rookie season and stays healthy, then we can have a long term DL of Worthy, Raji, Neal from Left to Right. If all three of those guys work out, they could be our starting DL for the next 6-7 years. If Neal doesn't work out, we're looking for another DE anyway next year (Pickett can't play forever) and it's probably best to find someone best suited to the left side so you can slide Worthy into the role he fits best into in Capers' preferred D.

[wist43]

I think as time goes on what the modern "3-4" teams run will be virtually incomprehensible from the perspective of the classical Bum Phillips or Chuck Fairbanks models of the 3-4 defense. The original 3-4 defenses were designed to be ideally suited for stopping the run (since you have more big bodies up front, and your gaps are better managed). In the days when people believed they had to run the football and stop the run, that mattered. These are not those days. Dick LeBeau leveraged the formation into an "unpredictable pass rush" concept when he and Dom invented the Zone Blitz, but that's now just a standard trick in every DC's arsenal.

It's entirely likely that something like the 2-4-5 nickel that Dom ran extensively in 2010, or the hybrid 3-4/4-3 defense that Bellichick has been devising over the past few years is, in fact, the future of the "3-4" defense. In the modern NFL to stop good offenses, first and foremost you have to be able to stop teams from throwing the ball on you and the classic 2-gapping odd front is not really designed for that. So the challenge is to design and implement something that is.

One of the reasons, I believe, that the defense struggled mightily last year was that Dom basically relied on his toolbox form 2010 (which was rational, since that worked very well then) and the other teams figured out how to beat it in the offseason. It's up to Dom this offseason to adapt and come up with something to throw your better offenses for a loop. If nothing else, having players who can get at the quarterback in at least one way (even if it's only one way) are going to help you do that. Capers is at his best as an offensive coordinator when he's forced to innovate, in the past he's overseen a number of defensive declines because he's failed to do that. If nothing else, the pieces that Thompson has given him can be effective, but will not be very effective if Capers tries to fit square pegs in round holes. This could very well be a good thing.

The Packers ran a pretty straight forward 3-4 in the 80's, and Tim Harris was a beast coming off the edge, but they didn't have much in the way of personnel subpackages, and on run downs it was as you said, all about gap discipline/control. I agree that Dick LeBeau saw the future and put it on the field.

I think the future of the attacking 3-4 is what TT drafted for this weekend. Big, strong, athletic linemen; pressure off either edge; and the flexibility to blitz or drop just about anybody. Perry, Worthy, and Daniels are nice additions, and Capers now has some material to wok with... I'll be most interested to see what Capers can do with a rush of Matthews, Worthy, Raji, Daniels, and Perry... and throw Woodson in there as a late comer. Capers still needs more bodies, but at least he has something to work with now.

[wist43]

Here is the summary of the Packers draft from CBS Sportsline

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/18900058

Analyzing the Packers' draft: Final grade

April 29, 2012 10:35 p.m. - by James Carlton

The good: The Packers had the worst defense in the NFL last season. Their pass rush was pitiful, and their coverage was porous. They used their first six picks on defensive players. Green Bay upgraded at OLB in the first round with Nick Perry (Southern California) and at DL and CB in the second round with Jerel Worthy (Michigan State) and Casey Hayward (Vanderbilt).

The bad: Speedy S Jerron McMillian (Maine), whom some thought would go undrafted, seems like a reach in the fourth round. The Packers also didn't draft a center to back up 36-year-old Jeff Saturday.

The bottom line: We can't know until they step on the field, but the knee-jerk reaction in Packer nation is that Green Bay had a fantastic draft. It traded up three times and addressed all of its glaring defensive needs. Perry and Worthy both could be 2012 starters. Grade: A.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will Brinson, CBS Sportline

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/18881992/2012-nfl-draft-winners-and-losers-colts-stay-on-offensive-with-smart-draft

Green Bay Packers -- I neglected to include the Packers in my Day 2 list of winners and losers and that was wrong. So my apologies for that, because Ted Thompson crushed this draft, going defense with his first six picks. Nick Perry will help limit the number of double teams Clay Matthews sees and moving up to snag Jerel Worthy in the second was superb. Thompson then proceeded to pile on the depth all over the defense with good value picks like Terrell Manning and Casey Hayward. I love the pick of B.J. Coleman from Chattanooga late in the seventh round too. He's going to be their next Matt Flynn type guy, watch.

[Pugger]

You severely overrate Eli Manning if you think he can comprehend War and Peace

:lol:

[pbmax]

Well, other than running 2-4-5 as much as last year, despite what McCarthy indicated a few weeks ago, there is another possibility with the new players. Run the Ravens hybrid with Perry as Suggs and Worthy next to Matthews. Could put Pickett back on the nose and Raji at the 3 tech before the shifting begins.

wist could be right that Dom is cooking up something new.

[mraynrand]

Capers now has some material to wok with...

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/CapersWOK.jpg


wist could be right that Dom is cooking up something new.

[wist43]

Well, other than running 2-4-5 as much as last year, despite what McCarthy indicated a few weeks ago, there is another possibility with the new players. Run the Ravens hybrid with Perry as Suggs and Worthy next to Matthews. Could put Pickett back on the nose and Raji at the 3 tech before the shifting begins.

wist could be right that Dom is cooking up something new.

Say your primary rushers in most of your nickel and dime packages are going to be Matthews, Worthy, Raji, Daniels and Perry. In either package you're going to have Woodson lurking somewhere around the LOS as a rover; not sure who the other LB's in either alignment would be - we're still short on talent.

With those 5 as your base rushers in sub packages, Capers needs to find ways to keep those guys fresh. How do you rest, i.e. rotate, those other 5 guys in your 3-4 base?? Hargrove can spell in the rush packages; hopefully Neal can spell at both DE spots in the base; are Raji and Worthy going to spell each other??

The Packers are surely going to play more straight-up base 3-4, and Capers is going to be able to get creative from there. Pickett needs to eat up a lot of snaps as a base DE. Bishop and Hawk are servicible in the middle, but both have limitations.

That leaves you with the following players pencilled into expected and defined roles:

DL: Pickett, Worthy, Raji, Daniels, Hargrove, and Neal
LB: Matthews, Perry, Bishop, and Hawk

That's 10 slots filled... we'd need another 2 or 3 slots filled to give Capers fresher players with a lot more options open to him. Those slots will be filled on the roster of course, but how much can Capers make use of those guys?? If you're going to carry 14-15 front seven players - how much production can Dom get out of those bottom 4-5 slots??

Be nice to have 1 or 2 more viable LB'ers out of that group, but those developmental guys are kept there as much for their ST's abilities as they are for anything they're showing from scrimmage.

Anyway, I like what Ted did this weekend... he really improved our defense.

[Smidgeon]

I think people just thought he was raw. That he needed to get physically stronger and improve in his technique. His rookie season shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I'm not willing to write him off yet.

Not only am I not willing to write him off yet, I still have high hopes for him. Except for Cobb, he might have been the one that I have the most hopes for from last year's draft.

[Smidgeon]

Wist, you are such a visionary. You saw a road the packers needed to take and by God they took it. I am simply amazed. No one should ever consider contradicting what you say ever again. I don't even think they should allow anyone to post here but you, execpt of course if it's to agree with you. Ted Thompson knew our front 7 was the worst since the creation of the 3-4 defense. There was perhaps 1 or 2 guys who could play on that D though pretty much everyone sucked. Thankfully, TT finally realised this and decided that he would rather field a bunch of rookies out there (Which I too think is a great, great idea). I think your right.

Perry is definately starting at OLB. He'll play most of the time and our defense will improve because of it. He is at least going to be a NFL calibur player, unlike the schmucks we got in there now. We'll probably let all those other hose bags go (except for walden, he might have a little bit of potential).

At RE, it's going to be Worthy all day long. They don't even need to keep those other D-Bags that played that position last year. Not with worthy there. Who cares what kind of experience those 7th round guys got, screw them, toss em. We might want to keep Mike Neal, but with that 4 game suspension, he's going to have to be at least a pro bowl calibur player to take over for this NFL calibur player that we drafted. Those other guys don't deserve to wash gilbert brown's jock strap.

Now we all know what a shitty year Trammon Williams had last year. 4 INT's, 19 PD's and 58 Tackles? Jesus, he might as well be asking TT for his gold watch. He's lucky though, because Sam Shields played way... way, way way worse. He only had 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 38 tackles. Looks like he's back to special teams because we got ourselves a bonifide NFL calibur CB in Casey Hayword. I sure am glad TT decided to address how shitty our cornerbacks played by picking this guy up. He moved up to get him, you know that means TT thought that our DB's sucked monkey balls.

BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, your asses are currently on notice you fat tubs of shit. We got Mike Daniels and you guys are fucked. One of you is going to be riding the pine next year and I don't know why you didn't expect it. Did you see how shitty you played last year? You were part of a front 7 that was worse that a bunch of arthritic dress wearing shit eating cry babies Wist and I have ever seen. You were part of a D that sucked so bad, that it's fucking amazing that they didn't single handidly just hand every game we played to the opposition. I mean, I know we went 15-2 and I know we lost to the Giants because of drops and turn overs, but fuck you guys for being on such a piece of shit defense. You know what we did? We picked up a REAL NFL calibur defensive tackle in Mike Daniels. You guys are fucked. No way you can compete with that guy.

We're also lucky as hell we got someone to finally replace that worthless piece of shit Charlie Peprah. That guy sucks. I mean mega sucks, everyone here even agrees with it. That dude is so bad, he may be one of the sole reasons the packers D gave up so many yards last year and we all know that yardage is the absolute best way to determine how good a defense is. I mean, last year? 5 INT's 10 PD's and 78 tackles? He should be dragged out into the parking lot and shot in the knee caps every day at dawn for a performance like that. That's nowhere near Nick Collins' Pro Bowl numbers from 2010 - 4 INT's, 13 PD's and 53 tackles. I mean, Nick Collins created 2 Forced fumbles that year, Peprah? Big goose egg. Fuck that guy. We got Jerron McMillion now. Peprah's taking a walk.

Terrell Manning is going to be a great sub package player for this team. He'll probably push Walden back even farther on the depth chart. This guy is a real NFL calibur player and man am I real happy about that. See, TT doesn't draft for the future, he drafts for next season. These guys absolutely need to contribute and Jerron's no different. He's going to provide the kind of pass rush that Walden and Zombo couldn't even dream of. This guy is lightyears ahead of those other ass holes, he's a real NFL calibur guy, not like Zombo and Walden. They're pieces of shit who should be washing the floor.

I am so happy, just like Wist, that TT decided to do what Wist thought he should do. I'm glad he decided not to get any good players on offense at all, I would rather him take some 4th rounder (who's totally going to play a lot) for defense than some D-bag who probably won't even see the field on offense, even if that guy is better - And we all know that's what TT did. Just admit it guys. Don't make Wist and me rub your nose in it like you're a dog who shit in the living room. It just sucks when we have to do that (although it is kind of fun to use random facts to PROVE that we were right and you were wrong you idiots). I mean, I'm extatic that we got all these awesome guys who are obviously better than the guys we got now. I mean, with all these playmakers that we added, it's impossible not to say that TT was addressing specific needs and these guys are here to fill them.

*you're





:mrgreen:

[3irty1]

There was not a "stong promise" from Walden, Zombo, and Jones. I still had a smidgeon of hope for Walden, but I could tell even during our SB run that it was a mirage. All of those guys are short-term plugs that TT tried to convince himself were legit NFL starters. Way, way off base... not even close. TT majorly fucked up, realized it, and set about fixing it in this draft.

My skepticism toward TT before this draft was due entirely to his track record in drafting, and the fact that the Packers really don't value defense or pass rush very much. TT definitely put that criticism to bed, and I'm glad he did.

10 out of 12 picks to defense... just a regular draft for TT?? Trading up and down all over the place to get guys that fill specific package rolls - that's all I was asking... was that so hard??

If I'm "exaggerating"; then TT is too... b/c he did everything I thought he needed to do. It remains to be seen if TT actually fixed a lot of defensive shortcomings, but at least he addressed the issues - seems I'm the only PR happy about that, lol...

This was a statement draft by TT, and the statement was, "our defense sucks"........ Maybe if we had His Lordness deliver the draft pick announcements, then all you guys would feel warmier, fuzzier, hopier, changier?? ;)

Walden was coming off of a strong performance down the stretch in 2010. Zombo was the best of the lot before an injury in 2010 and showed promise as a pass rusher. Brad Jones has been the worst of the lot lately but has been effective at times as a Packer as well. So TT fucked up in evaluating these guys because he should have predicted injuries and regressed play of these guys? Of course TT had a defense to fix but through no fault of his, so what you're taking as admonition of mistakes is simply BS. He came into 2011 with a stronger defensive roster than he had in 2010, he was just unlucky. Again, you're the only one who was surprised that Ted drafted so much defense this year and your claim that the Packers don't value defense or pass rush is outrageous. The Packers were tied for 2nd in the league in sacks in 2010.

[pbmax]

I will give wist and his theory of something new this piece of completely inferred evidence. There has to be a reason Thompson wanted so many specific players (and when give a choice of Still versus Worthy took the guy with more shake in pass rush) that resulted in trading up 3 times. All the D guys drafted either added pass defense, tackling or both. So its obvious what they wished to change,McCarthy said as much at his PC. Now we just have to wait to see if enough of the new guys break through to justify something a little different.

[Fritz]

It sure sounds like something changed between the NFL meetings, when McCarthy said he wanted to get back to more base 3-4, and the draft, in which Thompson drafted guys who don't seem to fit into the base 3-4 so much as they do into the groupings of which you've spoken above. Is Capers trying to re-invent his defense to respond to the pass-happy nature of the NFL?

And will offenses respond by trying to gash the Pack with runs and reverses and screens?

[MJZiggy]

*you're





:mrgreen: Lol.

[sharpe1027]

*you're


:mrgreen:

One mistake is acceptable for a 997 word post. :)

[mission]

House is the only one on the roster who would seem to be able to play outside CB on a regular basis beside Williams and Shields. And Shields is on notice as well.

Just reading this whole thread... good topic, but 'no way' on this. He got off to a bad start, but he was easily the Packers' best cover guy at the end of the year. Lockout hurt all the young guys. Shields will have a great season playing his normal outside, no-one-burns-you CB position. Will probably still not be a very good tackler, but I expect some improvement with the new team focus on tackling.

[Scott Campbell]

Just reading this whole thread... good topic, but 'no way' on this. He got off to a bad start, but he was easily the Packers' best cover guy at the end of the year. Lockout hurt all the young guys. Shields will have a great season playing his normal outside, no-one-burns-you CB position. Will probably still not be a very good tackler, but I expect some improvement with the new team focus on tackling.


I think those comments about crappy tackling were directed specifically at him. It wouldn't completely surprise me to see him lose his starting spot.

[mission]

I think those comments about crappy tackling were directed specifically at him. It wouldn't completely surprise me to see him lose his starting spot.

Tackling, yes, but who's going to take his spot? Hayward is not a run-with-the-other-team's-fastest guy kind of corner - he's a zone/anticipation kind of player who will probably play a lot underneath. There's always one speedster on the opposing team and Shields can take that away from guys. Maybe that's House, but Shields has shown to much to get him off the field over some missed tackles.

[pbmax]

Tackling, yes, but who's going to take his spot? Hayward is not a run-with-the-other-team's-fastest guy kind of corner - he's a zone/anticipation kind of player who will probably play a lot underneath. There's always one speedster on the opposing team and Shields can take that away from guys. Maybe that's House, but Shields has shown to much to get him off the field over some missed tackles.

Its not a perfect fit. Unless the Packers know something about his speed other teams don't, he's a more natural nickel CB. McGinn also dinged him for his tackling so there are conflicting reports about that. But I think he is another attempt to create competition on the defense and the primary target of such an effort would ultimately be Shields and House, not Wood and TWill.

I do agree the lockout hurt Shields and that on skill alone, he will win out. But perhaps it doesn't hurt to have two higher draft picks breathing down you neck.

[Fritz]

Casey Hayward is TT's way of saying "Wake up, bitches!"

[mraynrand]

Casey Hayward is TT's way of saying "Wake up, bitches!"

he could have just hired Andrew Dice Clay and saved the draft pick :rs:

[Fritz]

Andrew Dice Clay has tight hips, poor top-end speed, and he deosn't like to tackle.

[Upnorth]

Andrew Dice Clay has tight hips, poor top-end speed, and he deosn't like to tackle.

I thought most of his act was about tackling, just not in the othodox NFL sense.