Hargrove out 8 games

[Tony Oday]

Just reported by KFAN

[denverYooper]

Yah. Mike Freeman has it also:
https://twitter.com/#!/realfreemancbs/status/197715071433060354

It'll give the Packers some time to check out one of the bubble guys, I guess.

[Lurker64]

Jarius Wynn is currently the happiest man in America.

[woodbuck27]

I'm just listening to the decision on NFL Total Access. The reaction is somewhat surprizing in terms of the severity of the 8 games given to ie DE Anthony Hargrove.

The Saints... MLB Jonathan Vilma gets 16 games and DE Will Smith ...4 games.

LB Scott Fujita of 'the Browns' 3 games.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/41593/first-glance-anthony-hargroves-penalty

[MadScientist]

Any chance they can stagger the Neal and Hargrove suspensions?

[SavedByGrace]

Ted Thompson's thought on this signing can be best put in the words of Ron Burgundy: "I immediately regret this decision!"

[Scott Campbell]

At least he'll be fresh for the stretch run. If they don't cut him.

[sharpe1027]

Any chance they can stagger the Neal and Hargrove suspensions?

I doubt it. I don't think Neal chose to appeal and even if Hargrove appeals, there is a lot of time to complete the appeal before the first game. I am not sure that there is any other way to delay the suspensions.

[Guiness]

Ouch, that's pretty harsh. And if Goodell tows the line like he did with the other punishments, there's not much point in appealing - gone are the Starcap days of pushing back the suspension until you were ready to retire.

[woodbuck27]

Any chance they can stagger the Neal and Hargrove suspensions?

Walk that to the suggestion box.

[Patler]

I wonder what they will do with him? He will be out half the season, and then probably of no use for another 2 or 3 weeks after that, just like the guys coming off PUP, only two weeks further into the season.

I'm not sure there is a lot of reasons to even hang on to him. He won't likely be signed by anyone else. If the Packers need him late in the season, he should be available for signing at that time.

[swede]

I wonder what they will do with him? He will be out half the season, and then probably of no use for another 2 or 3 weeks after that, just like the guys coming off PUP, only two weeks further into the season.

I'm not sure there is a lot of reasons to even hang on to him. He won't likely be signed by anyone else. If the Packers need him late in the season, he should be available for signing at that time.

Does a suspension count if you aren't on a team?

[woodbuck27]

Ouch, that's pretty harsh. And if Goodell tows the line like he did with the other punishments, there's not much point in appealing - gone are the Starcap days of pushing back the suspension until you were ready to retire.

I'm somewhat surprized as Hargrove stepped forward and given 'the candor of his testimony' that his 8 games was that stiff. Maybe the same as Smith >>> 4 games.

Jonathan Vilma gets at least what he deserved. If I'm in charge of the penalty he gets a season plus NOT eligible for any PLAYOFFS.

HE GETS REMOVED FROM THE SAINTS ROSTER FOR 365 DAYS.

[gbpackfan]

I've heard reports that the NFLPA is expected to take the appeals all the way to court, which could be a lengthy process. A judge could order that these suspensions be placed on hold until the entire appeals process is heard. Don't be shocked if this isn't over.

[MadScientist]

I'm somewhat surprized as Hargrove stepped forward and givenj the candor of his testimony that his 8 games was that stiff.maybe the same as Smith >>>4 games.

Jonathan Vilma gets at least what he deserved. If I'm in charge of the penalty he gets a season plus NOT eligible for any PLAYOFFS.

HE GETS REMOVED FROM THE SAINTS ROSTER FOR 365 DAYS.
Vilma is gone through the playoffs. Not quite 365 as it ends after the SB, but the only difference is that he is not suspended during the down time between SB and OTA's.

[MadScientist]

I wonder what they will do with him? He will be out half the season, and then probably of no use for another 2 or 3 weeks after that, just like the guys coming off PUP, only two weeks further into the season.

I'm not sure there is a lot of reasons to even hang on to him. He won't likely be signed by anyone else. If the Packers need him late in the season, he should be available for signing at that time.
No cost to hanging on to him since there is no signing bonus and no salary being paid. They can always cut him after the suspension without any regrets.

There is a slight risk of a season ending injury during preseason, so they'd be on the hook for half a season, but that is only $425K.

[HarveyWallbangers]

No cost to hanging on to him since there is no signing bonus and no salary being paid. They can always cut him after the suspension without any regrets.

There is a slight risk of a season ending injury during preseason, so they'd be on the hook for half a season, but that is only $425K.

Agreed. He wouldn't cost a roster spot. I see it being a bit similar to a guy on PUP, like Starks a couple of years ago. Maybe he comes late in the season, gets a chance because of an injury, and makes a difference. I'm pretty sure Thompson knew a suspension was looming when he signed him.

[Pugger]

I wonder what they will do with him? He will be out half the season, and then probably of no use for another 2 or 3 weeks after that, just like the guys coming off PUP, only two weeks further into the season.

I'm not sure there is a lot of reasons to even hang on to him. He won't likely be signed by anyone else. If the Packers need him late in the season, he should be available for signing at that time.

We don't have a lot invested in him monetarily so I suspect unless he stinks in TC he'll sit out his suspension and return just in time for the playoff push.

[woodbuck27]

Vilma is gone through the playoffs. Not quite 365 as it ends after the SB, but the only difference is that he is not suspended during the down time between SB and OTA's.

Good.

By the way as we would expect ...'Darren Sharper is making waves'.

He's annoid at the penalty's. It seems to me as if he's almost 'in denial' or certainly acting that way. He didn't know much about it.

I'm taking it from that that he doesn't listen to speech's.

[pbmax]

Oh good. Another summer filled with Goodell, De Smith and Federal Appeals Courts. I can't wait. Vilma, we seem to know what goods they have on him. Wonder what Hargrove was found to do other than celebrate Favre leaving the game?

EDIT: Tom Oates at the State Journal makes a good point. Whatever Hargrove's actions were under the program, he is getting dinged at least partially because he lied to investigators the first time. Assuming, of course, he did know about it. And that San Fran tape, while long after Hargrove had left, is pretty damming about the public nature of it. I don't think this one is coming back.

EDIT2: Credit Judy Battista for that nugget Oates repeated. Also, Hargrove told a player on another team that Favre was a target of a bounty. Judging by the chatter about appeals, he might stand a chance on fighting this one if he brought no harm to Favre, collected no money or paid for harm to be brought. But its also convincing evidence that he lied to the League. So even a reversal on this point probably leaves the bulk of the suspension in place.

[ThunderDan]

Don't agree with NFLPA on this one. Some of your members were getting paid to target other members.

The other players should have team meetings with their union representative and vote not to challenge the suspensions.

[woodbuck27]

No cost to hanging on to him since there is no signing bonus and no salary being paid. They can always cut him after the suspension without any regrets.

There is a slight risk of a season ending injury during preseason, so they'd be on the hook for half a season, but that is only $425K.

No loss was he ever a gain?

[pbmax]

Don't agree with NFLPA on this one. Some of your members were getting paid to target other members.

The other players should have team meetings with their union representative and vote not to challenge the suspensions.

That's the multi-thousand dollar question. So far, evidence of actual payments and players knocked out of games are pretty scarce.

If you remove actual payments, this looks no different than all the ex-players who said it was OK to talk about cutting the head off the Offensive snake, but that being rewarded financially was a step too far.

[mraynrand]

I doubt it. I don't think Neal chose to appeal and even if Hargrove appeals, there is a lot of time to complete the appeal before the first game. I am not sure that there is any other way to delay the suspensions.

Maybe he can do what Fat Williams did - appeal until his career is effectively over.

[mraynrand]

Ouch, that's pretty harsh. And if Goodell tows the line like he did with the other punishments, there's not much point in appealing - gone are the Starcap days of pushing back the suspension until you were ready to retire.

I see you beat me to this punchline.... pays to read the whole thread - except for Woody.

[pbmax]

Maybe he can do what Fat Williams did - appeal until his career is effectively over.

That is why I always insist on separate attorneys when faced with diet pill use charges as a group. You wouldn't believe how many people are playing out the string in Weight Watchers.

[Guiness]

Oh good. Another summer filled with Goodell, De Smith and Federal Appeals Courts. I can't wait. Vilma, we seem to know what goods they have on him. Wonder what Hargrove was found to do other than celebrate Favre leaving the game?

EDIT: Tom Oates at the State Journal makes a good point. Whatever Hargrove's actions were under the program, he is getting dinged at least partially because he lied to investigators the first time. Assuming, of course, he did know about it. And that San Fran tape, while long after Hargrove had left, is pretty damming about the public nature of it. I don't think this one is coming back.

EDIT2: Credit Judy Battista for that nugget Oates repeated. Also, Hargrove told a player on another team that Favre was a target of a bounty. Judging by the chatter about appeals, he might stand a chance on fighting this one if he brought no harm to Favre, collected no money or paid for harm to be brought. But its also convincing evidence that he lied to the League. So even a reversal on this point probably leaves the bulk of the suspension in place.

Yup, lying about it to the inquiry 2 years ago seems to be the reason for the suspension. I guess it's a fine line between keeping your trap shut and ratting out your buddies.

[Joemailman]

Jarius Wynn is currently the happiest man in America.

I still think he'll struggle to make it. You'll have Guy, Wilson, Daniels, Muir and Wynn vying for 3 spots. My money would be on Guy, Wilson and Daniels. Wynn would have to clearly beat them out to make it since they may have some upside. At this point, I think Wynn is as good as he will get.

[Joemailman]

Good.

By the way as we would expect ...'Darren Sharper is making waves'.

He's annoid at the penalty's. It seems to me as if he's almost 'in denial' or certainly acting that way. He didn't know much about it.

I'm taking it from that that he doesn't listen to speech's.

It's certainly possible they didn't bother asking Sharper to go hit someone hard.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He doesn't count against the 53 man roster during the 8 week suspension. The Packers don't have to pay him during those 8 weeks. I don't see how this hurts the Packers that much, it gives them a chance to audition another player on the D line.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I wonder if the NFL has more on him given that he was the one who signed the affidavit stating the bounties were going on. Kinda like a plea bargain.

[Bretsky]

My gut tells me he lied

In the eyes of Goodell that is as bad or worse than the crime

[Joemailman]

My gut tells me he lied

In the eyes of Goodell that is as bad or worse than the crime

The NFL determined he lied in 2010. Sounds like he came clean in 2012, but that wasn't enough.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers03-pg58mhv-149915545.html

"Hargrove submitted a signed declaration to the league that established not only the existence of the program at the Saints but also that he knew about and participated in it," the league stated. "The evidence showed that Hargrove told at least one player on another team that Vikings quarterback Brett Favre was a target of a large bounty during the NFC Championship Game in January of 2010. Hargrove also actively obstructed the league's 2010 investigation into the program by being untruthful to investigators."

[pbmax]

The NFL determined he lied in 2010. Sounds like he came clean in 2012, but that wasn't enough.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers03-pg58mhv-149915545.html

"Hargrove submitted a signed declaration to the league that established not only the existence of the program at the Saints but also that he knew about and participated in it," the league stated. "The evidence showed that Hargrove told at least one player on another team that Vikings quarterback Brett Favre was a target of a large bounty during the NFC Championship Game in January of 2010. Hargrove also actively obstructed the league's 2010 investigation into the program by being untruthful to investigators."

I wonder if this was part of his 12-step recovery. Making amends through signed affidavits. And NFL franchise done in by A.A.

[KYPack]

There's a lesson for some of you younger guys. Once you lie, keep lyin'!

[gbgary]

I see you beat me to this punchline.... pays to read the whole thread - except for Woody.

lol

[gbgary]

That's the multi-thousand dollar question. So far, evidence of actual payments and players knocked out of games are pretty scarce.



as far as WE know. THEY may know more. grand juries, federal probes, and senate hearings, somehow get people to talk.

[Scott Campbell]

There's a lesson for some of you younger guys. Once you lie, keep lyin'!

:lol:

How many skeletons are in your closet anyway?

[Patler]

No cost to hanging on to him since there is no signing bonus and no salary being paid. They can always cut him after the suspension without any regrets.

There is a slight risk of a season ending injury during preseason, so they'd be on the hook for half a season, but that is only $425K.

I was thinking more about him taking a training camp roster spot and practice snaps away from a player that might actually contribute somewhere this season. It's not like he was a hot commodity that the Packers want to hang on to.

On the other hand, Hargrove has been said to be a great locker room presence and an intense, motivating practice guy who works extremely hard. Maybe having him in camp would be a good thing, to "show the way" to a few rookies who have reputations of giving inconsistent efforts.

As for injury pay, when he was signed they said his contract had an injury clause. It is becoming more common for contracts to include reduced salaries if a player goes on IR.

[woodbuck27]

I see you beat me to this punchline.... pays to read the whole thread - except for Woody.

No actually I returned to the forum to post this info. on a thread and it was already done,I read every post in this thread.

Now to the point:

Are you slipping in your memory 'M' ? ............. Favre !?

I witnessed the brutality in the Saints Vs Vikings NFC Championship game. I'm not an Anthony Hargrove fan. Somehow I can't get there.

[woodbuck27]

I was thinking more about him taking a training camp roster spot and practice snaps away from a player that might actually contribute somewhere this season. It's not like he was a hot commodity that the Packers want to hang on to.

On the other hand, Hargrove has been said to be a great locker room presence and an intense, motivating practice guy who works extremely hard. Maybe having him in camp would be a good thing, to "show the way" to a few rookies who have reputations of giving inconsistent efforts.

As for injury pay, when he was signed they said his contract had an injury clause. It is becoming more common for contracts to include reduced salaries if a player goes on IR.


Yes but this is going to turn into an NFLPA 'circus act'. At least it will be that as a PR move.

[mraynrand]

I witnessed the brutality in the Saints Vs Vikings NFC Championship game. I'm not an Anthony Hargrove fan. Somehow I can't get there.

I'm a huge Hargrove fan. I'm grateful to the Saints for stopping the Vikings from getting to the Superbowl, especially with Favre at the reigns. I said during the 2009 season "At some point, some team is going to realize there is a 40 year old fossil behind center and proceed to beat the living crap out of him." I wish it had been the Packers, but I'm OK with it being the Saints. If what the Saints were doing in that game was so, bad, why didn't the officials throw more flags? Favre got the stuffing beat out of him and it led to his final, classic error. All that being said, the guy was a total warrior in that game, and wasn't the reason they lost. Blame Peterson, if you are a Vikings fan. BTW, if you are a Vikings fan: :lol:

[woodbuck27]

I'm a huge Hargrove fan. I'm grateful to the Saints for stopping the Vikings from getting to the Superbowl, especially with Favre at the reigns. I said during the 2009 season "At some point, some team is going to realize there is a 40 year old fossil behind center and proceed to beat the living crap out of him." I wish it had been the Packers, but I'm OK with it being the Saints. If what the Saints were doing in that game was so, bad, why didn't the officials throw more flags? Favre got the stuffing beat out of him and it led to his final, classic error. All that being said, the guy was a total warrior in that game, and wasn't the reason they lost. Blame Peterson, if you are a Vikings fan. BTW, if you are a Vikings fan: :lol:

I certainly recognize you for what you are 'M' and 'at least respect your candor' in terms of your feeling RE: anything Favre and Vikings. What he suffered in that game is what kicked this whole mess off. It begins right there and too bad Brett Favre had to be so brutally treated for it to come to what it did. He was lights out great that season and if the Vikings OL had somehow offerd him more time the Saints we're going to lose that game. All things considered 'beaten and battered', again, Favre almost got it done.

Yes Favre was always a warrior. That's why I respected him as a player.

'M'.

I'm sitting here posting with a Packers hoodie on and today I wore that with a Green Bay Packer Packer hat.

I'm NOT and won't ever be a Vikings fan. Hard to melt away fifty two years of loyalty 'M'.

[Scott Campbell]

It's going to be some fun for Vikings fans to watch. Lights out take em' down HARD offense. Favre to Moss = Many TOUCHDOWNS over the next two or three seasons.

Lots of wins for Favre and MOSS!! A match made in NFL football heaven. Finally ... as an NFL fan. I get to enjoy that with such intense pleasure. :D

The Packers Vs Vikings stuff. I leave that up to TT and MM to handle. That's beyond my realm of deepest understanding.



Packer fan?????



Errrr.......not so much in my eyes.

[HowardRoark]

I certainly recognize you for what you are 'M' and 'at least respect your candor' in terms of your feeling RE: anything Favre and Vikings. What he suffered in that game is what kicked this whole mess off. It begins right there and too bad Brett Favre had to be so brutally treated for it to come to what it did. He was lights out great that season and if the Vikings OL had somehow offerd him more time the Saints we're going to lose that game. All things considered 'beaten and battered', again, Favre almost got it done.

Yes Favre was always a warrior. That's why I respected him as a player.

'M'.

I'm sitting here posting with a Packers hoodie on and today I wore that with a Green Bay Packer Packer hat.

I'm NOT and won't ever be a Vikings fan. Hard to melt away fifty two years of loyalty 'M'.

Leave me out of this.

http://celluloidjunkie.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/judidench.jpg

[woodbuck27]

Leave me out of this.

http://celluloidjunkie.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/judidench.jpg

Judi Dench never contributes.

[Brandon494]

I'm a huge Hargrove fan. I'm grateful to the Saints for stopping the Vikings from getting to the Superbowl, especially with Favre at the reigns. I said during the 2009 season "At some point, some team is going to realize there is a 40 year old fossil behind center and proceed to beat the living crap out of him." I wish it had been the Packers, but I'm OK with it being the Saints. If what the Saints were doing in that game was so, bad, why didn't the officials throw more flags? Favre got the stuffing beat out of him and it led to his final, classic error. All that being said, the guy was a total warrior in that game, and wasn't the reason they lost. Blame Peterson, if you are a Vikings fan. BTW, if you are a Vikings fan: :lol:

Peterson had the fumbles but I have no idea what Favre was thinking at the end of that game throwing that INT, I just know I was celebrating like it was the Packers on the field and not the Saints. :)

[Fritz]

I think that with the roster at 90 going in, it will be interesting to see if the Pack keeps Hargrove for tc. Let's see...there's Muir, Hargrove, Wynn, Wilson, Raji, Pickett, Neal, Daniels, Worthy...whom did I miss?

I wonder if they'll bring them all in, give less time to Hargrove and Neal, then during the four and eight game suspensions, use that time to evaluate the bubble guys.

I am still rooting for Mike Neal. If he can stay healthy and come back after four games to play well, that really frees Capers up to have some fun with the new dudes. I'd like to see Raji spelled more often, for example.

[Smeefers]

I was thinking more about him taking a training camp roster spot and practice snaps away from a player that might actually contribute somewhere this season. It's not like he was a hot commodity that the Packers want to hang on to.

On the other hand, Hargrove has been said to be a great locker room presence and an intense, motivating practice guy who works extremely hard. Maybe having him in camp would be a good thing, to "show the way" to a few rookies who have reputations of giving inconsistent efforts.

As for injury pay, when he was signed they said his contract had an injury clause. It is becoming more common for contracts to include reduced salaries if a player goes on IR.

With the 137 man roster the team initially gets, I don't see a problem with keeping one guy who's going to be suspended... err.. two guys if you count Mike Neal.

[Scott Campbell]

Peterson had the fumbles but I have no idea what Favre was thinking at the end of that game throwing that INT, I just know I was celebrating like it was the Packers on the field and not the Saints. :)



That was the most fun I've ever had watching a non Packer game.


http://media.nj.com/giants_impact/photo/saints-vikings-nfc-championship-game-tracy-porter-be772fb81dda5f7b_large.jpg

[mraynrand]

Peterson had the fumbles but I have no idea what Favre was thinking at the end of that game throwing that INT, I just know I was celebrating like it was the Packers on the field and not the Saints. :)


I suspect he was thinking pretty much the same thing he was thinking when he threw that INT into double coverage to Larry Brown in the '95 NFCCG instead of throwing for 4 to Chmura, or threw the INT on that weak ass toss towards Driver in the 1997 NFCCG when three other guys were open, or the popup in OT at Philly in 2003: "I'm gonna make a play!"

[mraynrand]

That was the most fun I've ever had watching a non Packer game.


http://media.nj.com/giants_impact/photo/saints-vikings-nfc-championship-game-tracy-porter-be772fb81dda5f7b_large.jpg

http://images.smh.com.au/2010/01/25/1066214/favre-420x0.jpg

Ahhhhh....great memories..... But what about:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/879/083/1998-falcons-vikings-gary-anderson-randy-moss_display_image.jpg?1303480320

Or:

http://burkeny.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/amani_toomer.jpg

Or:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW8aXD9I300

Great times!

[Scott Campbell]

I suspect he was thinking pretty much the same thing he was thinking when he threw that INT into double coverage to Larry Brown in the '95 NFCCG instead of throwing for 4 to Chmura, or threw the INT on that weak ass toss towards Driver in the 1997 NFCCG when three other guys were open, or the popup in OT at Philly in 2003: "I'm gonna make a play!"


I think you mean 2007.

[mraynrand]

I suspect he was thinking pretty much the same thing he was thinking when he threw that INT into double coverage to Larry Brown in the '95 NFCCG instead of throwing for 4 to Chmura, or threw the INT on that weak ass toss towards Driver in the 1997 NFCCG when three other guys were open, or the popup in OT at Philly in 2003: "I'm gonna make a play!"


I think you mean 2007.


Silly me. OF course I meant 2007. 1997 was when he couldn't read the blitz in the Superbowl.

[Scott Campbell]

Silly me. OF course I meant 2007. 1997 was when he couldn't read the blitz in the Superbowl.



Understandable. It's hard to keep all those game killing INT's straight.

[Pugger]

I do find it incredible that only 4 guys are getting Goodell's wrath here. I understand the suspensions but not the severity nor the scope. 16 and 8 games? Is this the most severe a penalty handed out to a player who wasn't in trouble with the law like a Vick, Jolly or Burris? And there had to be more than 4 guys in on this bounty business. There are other Saints players that are getting off scot-free IMO.

[Scott Campbell]

I do find it incredible that only 4 guys are getting Goodell's wrath here. I understand the suspensions but not the severity nor the scope. 16 and 8 games? Is this the most severe a penalty handed out to a player who wasn't in trouble with the law like a Vick, Jolly or Burris? And there had to be more than 4 guys in on this bounty business. There are other Saints players that are getting off scot-free IMO.



I get the feeling that Goodell has these 4 dead to rights. But the evidence against other players might not stand up under the intense scrutiny of the appeals process.

[woodbuck27]

I think that with the roster at 90 going in, it will be interesting to see if the Pack keeps Hargrove for tc. Let's see...there's Muir, Hargrove, Wynn, Wilson, Raji, Pickett, Neal, Daniels, Worthy...whom did I miss?

I wonder if they'll bring them all in, give less time to Hargrove and Neal, then during the four and eight game suspensions, use that time to evaluate the bubble guys.

I am still rooting for Mike Neal. If he can stay healthy and come back after four games to play well, that really frees Capers up to have some fun with the new dudes. I'd like to see Raji spelled more often, for example.

Yes it's turning out 'all good'.

Go PACKERS !

[Smeefers]

I get the feeling that Goodell has these 4 dead to rights. But the evidence against other players might not stand up under the intense scrutiny of the appeals process.

I've got a feeling that SC is correct here.

[mmmdk]

TT went & got Hargroves for 3 reason; he's cheap, he's a good vet & TT could stack a quality DL reserve 'cos injuries do happen! 8-) TT & the rest of the football world knew Hargroves had a suspension looming.

[Fritz]

I forgot about Lawrence "Justa" Guy.

Despite the fun nickname, my hope is that he learned something last year, sitting in on all those meetings, and that he can start to translate that learning to production on the field. If this kid could learn enough to contribute, that might be big. He has a more traditional 3-4 DE body, which seems to be something the Packers lack at the moment.

I wonder how good this kid could be? Anybody see enough or know enough to hazard a guess as to his level of talent and ability to learn?

[hoosier]

I forgot about Lawrence "Justa" Guy.

Despite the fun nickname, my hope is that he learned something last year, sitting in on all those meetings, and that he can start to translate that learning to production on the field. If this kid could learn enough to contribute, that might be big. He has a more traditional 3-4 DE body, which seems to be something the Packers lack at the moment.

I wonder how good this kid could be? Anybody see enough or know enough to hazard a guess as to his level of talent and ability to learn?

Wasn't guy (I think you can write out his name and nickname in one word) on IR all year? If that's right, I doubt very much that he had much opporunity to develop. TT should have cut him and then re-signed him to the PS.

[Pugger]

TT went & got Hargroves for 3 reason; he's cheap, he's a good vet & TT could stack a quality DL reserve 'cos injuries do happen! 8-) TT & the rest of the football world knew Hargroves had a suspension looming.

Yes, but its too bad it will be for 8 games instead of 4.

[MJZiggy]

TT went & got Hargroves for 3 reason; he's cheap, he's a good vet & TT could stack a quality DL reserve 'cos injuries do happen! 8-) TT & the rest of the football world knew Hargroves had a suspension looming.

I think there might have been a fourth reason; as insurance in case the draft didn't go as deliciously as it did and now as insurance in case any of the picks don't perform as advertised.

[mmmdk]

I think there might have been a fourth reason; as insurance in case the draft didn't go as deliciously as it did and now as insurance in case any of the picks don't perform as advertised.

I'll take "the 5th" reason from anyone! :lol:

[Bretsky]

I think that with the roster at 90 going in, it will be interesting to see if the Pack keeps Hargrove for tc. Let's see...there's Muir, Hargrove, Wynn, Wilson, Raji, Pickett, Neal, Daniels, Worthy...whom did I miss?

I wonder if they'll bring them all in, give less time to Hargrove and Neal, then during the four and eight game suspensions, use that time to evaluate the bubble guys.

I am still rooting for Mike Neal. If he can stay healthy and come back after four games to play well, that really frees Capers up to have some fun with the new dudes. I'd like to see Raji spelled more often, for example.


You have pretty low standards; I don't even count slugs like Wynn, Wilson, and maybe Muhr as well :)

[woodbuck27]

I forgot about Lawrence "Justa" Guy.

Despite the fun nickname, my hope is that he learned something last year, sitting in on all those meetings, and that he can start to translate that learning to production on the field. If this kid could learn enough to contribute, that might be big. He has a more traditional 3-4 DE body, which seems to be something the Packers lack at the moment.

I wonder how good this kid could be? Anybody see enough or know enough to hazard a guess as to his level of talent and ability to learn?

http://www.packers.com/team/roster/Lawrence-Guy/2f18669f-5105-414e-a4a8-1706d547c0e3


http://packersnews.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20111021/PKR01/111021150/Green-Bay-Packers-change-plan-for-rookie-defensive-end-Lawrence-Guy-put-him-on-injured-reserve

[Patler]

Is Hargrove being punished for "being a good soldier"?


...on Thursday a lawyer hired by the NFL to provide independent analysis of the investigation said that Hargrove “he was told to lie about it and he did when he was asked about it in 2010 by the NFL investigators.”
The attorney, Mary Jo White, declined to say who told Hargrove to lie, although she said Hargrove did reveal that information to investigators.He later came clean about the program, signing an affidavit for the league outlining the details he knew. Apparently that wasn't enough to escape being punished worse than any player but Vilma. Worse than even Smith who the league believes contributed significant sums of money (which the league says has been verified by multiple sources), who the league believes participated in administering the program, and who still today denies any involvement in it what so ever.

Should Hargrove be punished more than Smith, who apparently continues to lie about it, if he (Smith) has not been unjustly convicted? If Smith were to decide to come clean and admit to it, should he receive additional punishment for having lied? If the league has the facts correct, Smith's involvement seems greater than Hargrove's.

If Hargrove had continued in his denials, as Smith has, would Hargrove have been punished at all, or at least no more than Smith?

[pbmax]

The NFLPA is also in a bind as they turned over what is now being termed a declaration from Hargrove to the League. The League did not prepare it for Hargrove. He signed it without a notary, otherwise it would be an signed affidavit from legal counsel. He may have been thinking of later denying the declaration because its a forgery.

It almost seems like all involved parties are simply screwing up enough to be punished because there isn't any plausible excuse left.

I think the NFL has the inside track because as long as they have evidence payments were discussed (check) and payments were made (uncheck, but no outsiders have seen all the evidence yet) it can claim that a violation of the CBA occurred without having to prove anyone got hurt and without having to explain why no flags were thrown on some of the hits in question. But the interesting part is that a CBA violation might have to go to a Special Master for appeal rather than Goodell under the Player Conduct Policy.

BTW, the Williams' were able to prolong the StarCaps debacle in part because the Drug Policy has mediation/arbitration outside of Goodell's scope. And then they were able to get to the Courts.

Going to be a fun summer.

[Smidgeon]

Is Hargrove being punished for "being a good soldier"?

He later came clean about the program, signing an affidavit for the league outlining the details he knew. Apparently that wasn't enough to escape being punished worse than any player but Vilma. Worse than even Smith who the league believes contributed significant sums of money (which the league says has been verified by multiple sources), who the league believes participated in administering the program, and who still today denies any involvement in it what so ever.

Should Hargrove be punished more than Smith, who apparently continues to lie about it, if he (Smith) has not been unjustly convicted? If Smith were to decide to come clean and admit to it, should he receive additional punishment for having lied? If the league has the facts correct, Smith's involvement seems greater than Hargrove's.

If Hargrove had continued in his denials, as Smith has, would Hargrove have been punished at all, or at least no more than Smith?

That was my initial thought too...until it came out that Hargrove did that for the NFLPA and not for the NFL. Hand in the cookie jar? Caught for lying?

[Smeefers]

It's also possible that in the signed affidavits he admitted to paying people or accepting money for a big hit. If he hadn't of told the truth, he could have been suspended a full year a-la Vilma. We simply don't know and to speculate is just that, speculation. People are clamoring for the evidence, but it may be being kept out of the public eye to protect the players. If they really do go through with an appeal, I'm sure much of this will come to light. How would you play against a guy who paid someone to take out one of your team mates?

[MadScientist]

Is Hargrove being punished for "being a good soldier"?

He later came clean about the program, signing an affidavit for the league outlining the details he knew. Apparently that wasn't enough to escape being punished worse than any player but Vilma. Worse than even Smith who the league believes contributed significant sums of money (which the league says has been verified by multiple sources), who the league believes participated in administering the program, and who still today denies any involvement in it what so ever.

Should Hargrove be punished more than Smith, who apparently continues to lie about it, if he (Smith) has not been unjustly convicted? If Smith were to decide to come clean and admit to it, should he receive additional punishment for having lied? If the league has the facts correct, Smith's involvement seems greater than Hargrove's.

If Hargrove had continued in his denials, as Smith has, would Hargrove have been punished at all, or at least no more than Smith?

Had he continued in the denials, he would likely have been hit harder.

He was in a fucked position, since the team was doing something well outside the rules and he was told to lie about it, presumably by a higher up in the organization. Either he goes against the team and nobody trusts him afterwards, or he lies to the NFL and gets whacked now.

[mraynrand]

Hargrove's penalty seems just. Smith seems to be getting away with something. Perhaps he has pictures.

[Patler]

You guys seem to be missing my point.

The NFL has released fairly informative statements on the involvements of the suspended players. The major difference between their statements about Hargrove and Smith is that Hargrove lied when initial questions. Well, if they are correct in punishing Smith, he is continuing to lie to them. The NFL has pretty clearly indicated their belief that Smith contributed a lot of money to the program. The have even stated that this fact was corroborated by numerous sources. They made no such allegation against Hargrove, which I am fairly certain they would have if they have any evidence of it. The have identified numerous sources of money funding the program.

I'm not disputing Hargrove's punishment as much as I am trying to justify why he would get twice as much as Smith. I hate to say this, but I think Hargrove has been punished more severely because:

- of his actions in the "Favre is done" incident
- he has admitted to lying, while other continue do so. He has no defense to it.
- Hargrove is a "throw away" player. He is not a big name, probably is less likely or able to pose a significant individual defense, and it is easy for the league to say, "look how tough we are on this" with him rather than other big name players. Vilma's involvement made his suspension a no-brainer.

[Patler]

Hargrove's penalty seems just. Smith seems to be getting away with something. Perhaps he has pictures.

I agree with that completely. Smith should be punished at least as significantly as Hargrove, and maybe even more.

[Patler]

Had he continued in the denials, he would likely have been hit harder.


What about Smith?

[Smidgeon]

You guys seem to be missing my point.

The NFL has released fairly informative statements on the involvements of the suspended players. The major difference between their statements about Hargrove and Smith is that Hargrove lied when initial questions. Well, if they are correct in punishing Smith, he is continuing to lie to them. The NFL has pretty clearly indicated their belief that Smith contributed a lot of money to the program. The have even stated that this fact was corroborated by numerous sources. They made no such allegation against Hargrove, which I am fairly certain they would have if they have any evidence of it. The have identified numerous sources of money funding the program.

I'm not disputing Hargrove's punishment as much as I am trying to justify why he would get twice as much as Smith. I hate to say this, but I think Hargrove has been punished more severely because:

- of his actions in the "Favre is done" incident
- he has admitted to lying, while other continue do so. He has no defense to it.
- Hargrove is a "throw away" player. He is not a big name, probably is less likely or able to pose a significant individual defense, and it is easy for the league to say, "look how tough we are on this" with him rather than other big name players. Vilma's involvement made his suspension a no-brainer.

Excellent points.

Maybe Florio can segue them into national attention. ;)

[pbmax]

I agree with that completely. Smith should be punished at least as significantly as Hargrove, and maybe even more.

The NFL has Hargrove admitting to lying and the NFL claims he "participated" in the scheme. 2 strikes, only one item needs to be defended. The NFL claims Smith participated but he is still denying it. Possibly two strikes, but both need to be proven. And Smith not only has the defense of maintaining innocence, but also being able to prove he contributed nothing and was paid nothing. His denial would look strong if all you can claim is that he knew people were talking about a scheme. His experience would be that the scheme was all talk and therefore not real at all.

I think this will become a debate about scheme vs. money. The NFL has a lot of evidence of a scheme. But little (publicly known) evidence of money actually changing hands. They have next to no injuries to tie to this program and only a few yellow flags during a 3 year run of the program. The only strong point to stand on is the CBA violation extra payments would have entailed.

And the CBA violation doesn't look impressive if you have scant evidence that players were actually paid. Hargrove's admitted lie is the low hanging fruit.

Its possible, if contrary evidence was presented, Smith or Fujita could face further discipline if their lie were exposed. But as this will likely enter the courts, that will be negotiated by lawyers similar to the personal conduct policy violations during the lockout. Absent financial proof, I think they will to stand on the scheme vs. money argument. If they neither paid nor received money, it could be reasonably argued they did not participate in the scheme, and refusing to acknowledge its existence might stand on all talk and no action.

I think we could call it the Sharper Defense.

[Pugger]

Had he continued in the denials, he would likely have been hit harder.

He was in a fucked position, since the team was doing something well outside the rules and he was told to lie about it, presumably by a higher up in the organization. Either he goes against the team and nobody trusts him afterwards, or he lies to the NFL and gets whacked now.

Now that you posted this you might be right and that Hargrove is getting hosed. Good lord, he finally does the right thing by coming clean and gets hammered for it but the others who continue to lie don't. :bs2:

[Scott Campbell]

I can't stick up for Hargrove.

[smuggler]

I think it's good for us to get Hargrove back after 8 games. No complaint from me. After all, we're worried about the playoffs more than the first 8 games.

[Pugger]

I can't stick up for Hargrove.

Nobody is. We are just wondering why his punishment is harsher while others who continue to lie (like Smith) only got a 4 game suspension.

[Rutnstrut]

Nobody is. We are just wondering why his punishment is harsher while others who continue to lie (like Smith) only got a 4 game suspension.

Because Hargrove was the idiot bragging on live tv about taking Favre out.

[pbmax]

Rex Ryan putting his mouth (and pen) where his money isn't.

Rex Ryan wrote about "dotting" opposing players. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/06/rex-ryan-wrote-last-year-about-dotting-opposing-players/)

[Pugger]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--anthony-hargrove-s-declaration-to-nfl-regarding-saints-bounty-scandal.html

[Smeefers]

It's also possible that in the signed affidavits he admitted to paying people or accepting money for a big hit. If he hadn't of told the truth, he could have been suspended a full year a-la Vilma. We simply don't know and to speculate is just that, speculation. People are clamoring for the evidence, but it may be being kept out of the public eye to protect the players. If they really do go through with an appeal, I'm sure much of this will come to light. How would you play against a guy who paid someone to take out one of your team mates?

Wow, you hit that right on the head smeefers! Good job.

[pbmax]

Wow, you hit that right on the head smeefers! Good job.

Wait, wait. What did we miss or you get? Got link?

[Smeefers]

Wait, wait. What did we miss or you get? Got link?

Sorry! Rookie mistake, I just figured everyone knew Hargrove pretty much admitted to participating in the bounty program and participating in its cover up. The evidence that he himself released is pretty much the most damning thing that could have happened to him. Huh. He was cheating, got caught cheating, and now he's being punished for cheating. He got a lighter sentence than the other guy cause at least he eventually told the truth, but eventually telling the truth isn't telling it right away.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--document--anthony-hargrove-was-instructed-to-lie-by-gregg-williams--joe-vitt.html;_ylt=Arnkgbb2NP4FHWR2TRE.4rJDubYF

[Zool]

Ex-Saint: Coaches said to 'play dumb'

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7901702/anthony-hargrove-says-joe-vitt-gregg-williams-told-play-dumb-bounties

[Gunakor]

NFLPA to counter that Hargrove never once in that statement admitted to participating in or having knowledge of said bounty program. That the fact he was told to play dumb doesn't necessarily mean he knew what he was playing dumb about, and certainly doesn't implicate him as a participant.

Rapistburger only got 4 games. Hargrove's suspension will be reduced, I'm almost positive of that.

[pbmax]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/08/vitt-denies-that-he-told-hargrove-to-lie/

I am not so sure about that. His statement helps explain why the NFL suspended the coaches, and heard their appeals, first. It helps blunt the 'we were only following orders' defense. And while he acknowledged the existence of the price, he has denied his hit on Favre was motivated by the program (and I don't think he drew a flag).

So Hargrove seems to have admitted only that there was a price on Favre's head, and I don't think anyone doubts that. However, his former coach, Vitt, said the system was no more than the pay for performance system like the Packers used in the game versus Purple Jesus (my comparison, not his). So did Hargrove admit to a team intention to injure Favre using illegal means or just to hit him legal and hard and make it difficult to continue?

Even Williams video could be seen that way.

The larger question is still unaswered; was it all talk and motivation, or did anyone actually get paid to injure? The NFL still hasn't provided definitive proof about payments.

Either system violates the CBA and salary cap rules as the Packers system did (and so did the Best Buy gift cards). But only bounties for injuries, or intent to play outside the rules makes this different than any other team in the League. And while everyone agrees that would be something contemptible and rare, the League has not provided compelling material that that is the case.

[Smeefers]

One thing I would like to clear up. The "we were only following orders" line is bullshit. We're not talking about accidentally shredding some TPS reports, we're talking about shredding records prior to an IRS audit and then covering up that you did it. Anyone who participates is guilty, regardless if they were following orders or giving them.

If the NFLPA is going to say he was told to play dumb, but he didn't know what he was playing dumb about, then that would be one of the stupidest defenses I've ever heard. My girlfriends 8 year old kid could poke enough holes to drive a truck through that argument in 30 seconds. That's something a teenager says when he's caught doing something wrong hoping the parents are idiots.

"Johnny, why were you lying about weed being smoked at that party?"

"Well, Tommy said not to say nothing, otherwise he'd get in trouble."

"But you knew it was going on?"

"Uh.. no, I just, was told, to um, not say anything bout nothing. Tommy just said that his parents have been trying to bust him for a while now. I didn't know it was about weed."

"So why'd he ask you to stay quiet if you didn't know?"

"I don't know. He's stupid?"

"So then why did you even bring it up?"

"Because you accused me of Smoking weed! I didn't, I swear!"

"But Tommy did?"

"I don't know!"

Only the most naive of parents would accept that answer. The kid might or might not of smoked pot, but he did show up at home that night with red eyes and smelling of incense. He most definitely did know that weed was being smoked at the party and he lied about it.

Same thing for Hargrove. He may or may not have been trying to injure favre, but he did have a late hit on him when money was on the table to take him out. He definitely knew a bounty system was in place and he lied about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know why we would even be having this discussion if the hits were legal. If these guys are getting suspended for a year because they payed bonus' for legal hits, then the packers are screwed. They've been echanging cash for dropped passes for years. Say good bye to our receiving core. No, the only way suspensions come is due to illegal hits specifically to injure players. You can fight for a ball in a pile, you can't break someone's fingers to get it.

Going back to the tape of Vitt (I believe he was the one in the tape), I had no problem with all the "take the head off the snake" talk and crap like that. It's when He talks about taking a dude out and paying for it that is illegal and the source of all the problems.

[pbmax]

disclosure: At this point, I barely remember who hit who in the Saints/Favre game. I know one Hargrove hit has been questioned (was it the one after a handoff?) but that the worst (the hit low from behind and late by a Saint on Favre which wrecked his ankle) was someone else on the line. And I think that was when Hargrove celebrated. If I am wrong, please say so.

I am not buying the play dumb line either. But denying the existence of the system does not tell you the nature of the system. The only question is: Did any money change hands? Did Hargrove collect or donate any money? Otherwise there is less here than Best Buy giftcards and $100 to keep AP under 100 yards. Encouraging players to hurt someone legally has been done in pro football for a long time.

And there are questionable hits all the time, including Al Harris hurting Peterson's knee in the Pack/Vikings game that occur outside any bounty system. Harris wasn't flagged, he wasn't a recipient of any money (but he DID organize a play for performance in that game) and it clearly wasn't an effort to injure Peterson (Al went low like he always did to avoid hitting the opponent square). Should Harris be retroactively fined 8 game checks for his involvement?

Saying any questionable hit during the three years is evidence of the bounty system is ludicrous and ignores the basic gameplay. Urlacher nearly took off Rodgers head in 2010 (or 09?) with a forearm and not only is it not evidence of a bounty, it wasn't even flagged.

There needs to be evidence of payment or the case is weak. Waving cash and rubbing your fingertips together without anyone actually being paid is noise. A lot of coaches encourage their players to cut the head off the snake or "dot" the player. The NFL is not trying to stop rhetoric, its statement indicates its targeting a play for performance (bounty) scheme as its against the CBA and conduct detrimental to the game.

Favre is the only standout injury example so far. Warner thought he got worse treatment the week before from the Packers. And labeling the effort a bounty system doesn't change the nature of the behavior. If there were payments then its a salary cap violation. If there was encouragement of illegal hits, then let's see the evidence that money was paid for knockouts and cart offs. Hargrove celebrating and one late hit don't seem enough to prove that 3 years after the fact.

For the lie, I can't see him skating. Though eight games seems silly compared to what the League wishes you to believe occurred.

[pbmax]

A parsing of Hargrove's statement that finds it falls short of what the NFL says it contains. Of course, its still patently unclear what he was lying about, since clearly Williams and Vitt had reason to be concerned. but was it talk or was it actually payments?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/41748/hargrove-declaration-wheres-the-beef

[Smeefers]

What was this statment in response to? Why did he put what he had to say down on paper? At the very least he was being accused of lying about knowledge of the bounty system. In order to come clean, he wrote this out in order to mitigate any serious damage which, might I add, he pretty much did. It's not like the guy has a squeeky clean record. His suspension length could be more due to his continuation from past problems. Pacman Jones' suspensions got bigger, not less with the more crap he did.

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum. He was being accused of participating and lying about his knowledge of the bounty system and he knew they had dirt on him. In order to come clean, he wrote this out in order to mitigate some of the damage he knew was coming his way and to point the finger in another direction. That is why he focused so much on what his coach did and said next to nothing about what he knew or what he did. He didn't want to completely self implicate in case they didn't have anything on him, but he wanted to help out in order to lessen his sentance, which, might I add, that he did. He could of kept denying the shit out of this and then who knows, maybe he'd be sitting next to Vilma with a year long suspension.

I'll use a Seifert quote and turn it around. He said: "but I think any reasonably intelligent person can see what Williams was up to, at least based on the account Hargrove gave in his declaration." I say: I think any resonably intelligent person can see what Hargrove was up to, at least based ont he account Hargrove gave in response to the NFL's investegation.

In the end, I think SC said it best, They wouldn't of nailed these guys to the wall unless the NFL knew they wouldn't slide.

[pbmax]

No doubt he wrote this to mitigate the effects of having lied. Though, if I were a player agent, I would read the part about Williams just happening to be drawing up the depth chart with Hargrove starting when they met, only to backtrack later, to all my clients as a reminder to take everything with a grain of salt.

But the NFL has not produced evidence of payment. So what he was lying about, absent other evidence, was a motivational tactic and loud, boasting bravado.

For this to be a Salary Cap issue and different from all the other mini-paydays players have organized, Williams (or Vilma) needs to have paid someone. Or they need some other corroborating evidence that the coaches and players were trying to induce illegal hits. Williams has reason to hide even a pedestrian Best Buy gift card scheme because the League considers all forms of it a violation of the Cap.

They might have it. But Goodell expected to be and currently is the appeal process right now. If he should find himself in another venue, they may be required to produce the evidence. So far the best known evidence is Williams asking for shots to the head of the Niners Williams. But of course, that did not happen during the game.

I don't think for a minute that Gregg Williams, Joe Vitt, Jim Schwartz, Jeff Fisher (and Buddy Ryan) weren't trying to get the QB, or someone injured. But other than being stupidly public about it, I am not yet convinced they have materially done anything different than every other DC.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82944897/article/roger-goodell-says-public-will-see-proof-of-bounties

Roger Goodell says public will see proof of bounties.

By Gregg Rosenthal ... Around The League editor


Published: May 22, 2012 at 05:29 p.m.
Updated: May 22, 2012 at 06:22 p.m.
" NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell indicated Tuesday at the Spring League Meeting that the NFL plans to release proof to the public that bounties were paid by New Orleans Saints players.

"Yes, I do," Goodell said when he was asked if he expected the proof to be revealed. Eventually.

Goodell pointed out that the league released facts in March and is going through the appeals process with the NFL Players Association. He indicated that the league won't release any more information publicly until the appeals and grievance processes are finished. Goodell also said that the NFLPA "expressly told the players not to cooperate in the bounty investigation.

"I invited them in and they decided not to do that," Goodell said." Fr. LINK

PLEASE Click on LINK for video etc.

[pbmax]

Goodell met the media at the owner's meeting and sounded like there could be movement on the players suspensions. his contention is that the NFLPA asked the players not to cooperate (an odd claim since the NFLPA forwarded Hargrove's declaration) with the investigation.

Presumably, he is now in possession of new information which might lead to adjustments. But the cloud of litigation makes this a hard read.

[Bossman641]

Word on the street is that Vilma's 16 game suspension could be reduced to 8 games if he drops his defamation suit against Goodell.

Having both Neal and Hargrove come back after 4 games would be a big boost to the DL.

[pbmax]

NFL is denying its offered a settlement.

[KYPack]

Goodell is totally fucking this whole deal up.

It's dragging on WAY beyond what should have been settled.

I think Hargrove and Fujita are sitting pretty.

[Iron Mike]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8238319/sources-jonathan-vilma-suspension-reduced-withdraws-civil-suit

[Guiness]

It's certainly possible they didn't bother asking Sharper to go hit someone hard.

:rs:

[pbmax]

Missed this entirely. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/05/final-bounty-appeal-ruling-puts-league-in-potentially-delicate-spot/

Goodell's target for disciplining players has gotten quite a bit smaller. Any actions involving money, donating or receiving, have been determined by the NFL/NFLPA in-house arbitration panel to be strictly the purview of the Salary Cap special master Stephen Burbank. Goodell must confine himself to behavior not involving money.

Which means Hargrove is still in trouble and the other three are probably in better shape, though I would be stunned if he doesn't still suspend them again.

[mraynrand]

Goodell must confine himself to behavior not involving money.

Does that mean Pacman Jones would be off the hook(er)?

http://frankgutowski.fatcow.com/yournewgossipfix/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/pacman.jpg