PLEASE ANYONE - HELP ME to Understand !!

[woodbuck27]

Packer fans on this Forum !! H E L P !!

It's tough for us to get the inside on some moves. I was really surprised that Billy Cundiff was let go at this point in OUR TC. BAM !!!

Being a suporter of a team, isn't exactly like watching " Survivor or American Idle or the Miss America Contest" - where we see the winners develop.

We see lots of moves that puzzle, at least some of us, but it's ALL very interesting. We ALL just hold out HOPE, that every move will be for US and " of course" - not all are. We are different and see it differently.

What must it be like to be Ted Thompson, as he learns to manage OUR team? It's NOT easy - I expect.

I see Ted Thompson, as a rather mysterious fella, and it will take TIME for this Packer fan to read him. I see this.

I think he has a heart and combined with intelligence, Ted Thompson thinks of the better good for a player.

Some people here want to slam me - because I want Ted Thompson to be solid as OUR GM. I am not all against Ted Thompson, and "in fact" I give him full marks for having a terrific draft last April.

I love it that we have the likes of:

HAWK ,HODGE,JENNINGS,COLLEDGE.SPITZ,CULVER and WILL BLACKMON
(watch for this fella - he's going to be a beauty) . . .

and hopefully, Cory Rodgers and Dale Tollefson and Tony MOLL and Greg Jolly and INGLE MARTIN ( good athlete - great arm) can also contribute to OUR future.

Ted it's said here:

" can't keep them ALL ". . but Ted Thompson . . . just. . well. . . may.

We need the core group of OUR Vet's and the remainder of OUR 53-Man must be the BEST that Ted Thompson can hand - Head Coach Mike McCarthy and his Staff.

Alot of us believed I expect base on what we read and the reports of members here that, Billy Cundiff put in the effort and the results to be the clear front runner (up to yesterday) as OUR kicker. Can anyone deny that?

The press had that assssment as a fact. So Billy Cundiff was dispatched as Ted Thompson felt that he and his Coaching staff saw more upside in Dave Raynor. More potential than Cundiff that seems relevant to Ted's decision on Billy Cundiff.That's it as I view that move.

What is it, that you see - on that move to toss Billy Cundiff?

Timing?? Strange??? No! Not as I have so far been able in my limited standpoint been able to read Ted "Mystery Man" Thompson.

Ted Thompson made up his mind (I hope) or expect, based on input from his HC - Coach's. So why hang onto what he didn't need.

Billy Cundiff and his history in the NFL over Dave Raynor's potential upside.

Give Billy Cundiff another chance while TC is on with another Organization. That maybe . . is partly due to Ted's heart and - HIS Intelligence? Am I out to lunch here people?? Help me to understand this better.

Does ANYONE ELSE see it, at all as I'm seeing it ?? Otherwise - PLEASE straighten me out on this move at this time in OUR TC. . . .

PLEASE !!

WHY do I ask this of YOU Packer fans?? I'll explain.

I have to be prepared now, for the possible release of a man that I've pulled for since way back in early Feb.2006. A man that has worked his tail off and has showed us alot.

Punter - Jon Ryan.

I have to be prepoared for the possible release of another Man that I support -

WR Ruvell Martin who has clearly displayed the effort and "the RESULT's" to be one of OUR WR's to begin this season.

ONLY - Donald Driver has demonstrated better stat's in TC, as of Wed. Aug.16, 2006. Ruvell Martin and DD and Greg Jennings have by a long shot, outshone the likes of Rod Gardner as the 4th best IMO, and after him what in "H" has Robert Ferguson and Marc Boerigter done, but very little that is consistent - positive for this season??

How can I be better prepared for the release of either punter Jon Ryan and /or WR Ruvell Martin?

HELP PLEASE.

GO PACKERS ! HOLD FAITH FOR 2006 !!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

How can I be better prepared for the release of either punter Jon Ryan and /or WR Ruvell Martin?

They won't be released, you have my word... :neutral:

[Badgepack]

I would have to think that if Billy Cundiff can't kick well enough in the semi-dome of warm weather Dallas, who were desperate for a kicker, he would have a hard time kicking in Green Bay.

[Packnut]

I'm not gonna jump on TT for this one. He did try to sign Vinateri but it just did'nt work out. The way I see it, some team will cut a promising kicker with-in the next week or 2 and it will be up to TT to find him. That's what he gets paid for.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I'm not gonna jump on TT for this one. He did try to sign Vinateri but it just did'nt work out. The way I see it, some team will cut a promising kicker with-in the next week or 2 and it will be up to TT to find him. That's what he gets paid for.

Yep, its why am not worried, it's not like cuniff is irreplaceable.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

As for helping you understand TT........

I think TT is just like any other good GM when evaluating talent. Like you said Woodbuck, we watch the packers closely, as close as anything else we watch, but we just don't always see the winner develop. TT most likely saw that Rayner had a stronger leg than Cuniff, had more potential, and was almost, if not, as accurate. There was no clear winner at this position, that's why TT did what he did.

I just can't see this happening with Jon Ryan because IMO he is the clear winner. He out punts BJ by an average of almost 10 yards and his hang time is just getting better. If Jon Ryan was to get cut, I would also need help understanding that move.

[MJZiggy]

he has also said a lot about hanging out behind the bench and observing the way players interact in forming a team environment. It is possible that Cundiff was not kicking particularly well, but perhaps better than Raynor, but Raynor has a better relationship with the holders and staff and that with him being young, while he might not be the guy we end up with, TT saw more potential in him than Cundiff. Cundiff is a vet and should be kicking better than the youngin' by a much wider margin right now. Maybe Cundiff is as good as he's gonna get and Raynor is showing improvement. There are a lot of possible reasons for this one when on the surface, it might look...well...odd.

[pittstang5]

Woodbuck,

I too was shocked on the Cundiff debacle. But, when you think about what alot of people in here are saying, it makes alot of sense.

Cundiff, by far and most agree, was the better kicker in this camp. There's no denying that. However, he is average at best. He's been in the league 4 years and, imo, has a below average percentage of making FGs....70 something percent. For comparison, Longwell was 80 something. TT more than likely feels that Cundiff has reached his potential and may not get any better. Is there room for him to improve? Maybe, but the odds are against it. Now, enter Raynor. A kid that's been in the league one year and hasn't ever kicked for a FG. Ok, so he tried one, but come on, his first attempt was for 59 or whatever yards......do you really think he's going to make it? Anyway, the kid is an unknown and is doing ok in TC. TT probably feels that this kid's upside is greater than that of Cundiff. If the writing is on the wall, why delay the inevitable...get rid of the guy that you don't see making it, hence Cundiff gets cut. Now, all the time in TC can be devoted to one kicker instead of split between the two. Raynor will definitely benefit by being the only kicker in camp.

Now, will Raynor be the starting kicker on Sept. 10. I have no clue. But keep in mind, if it's not Raynor, it could be Cundiff and if it's not either it'll be someone that is about equal in ability. So....in the long run, what does it hurt to cut Cundiff now if, at the worst case scenario you are replacing him with someone of equal ability.

There's going to be growing pains in the kicking game this year whether we as fans like it or not. Us Packer fans were a little spoiled with Longwell...up until last year, he was an automatic from 45 yards and less. (I 'll spare you on my theory of Longwell's play past year)

[Patler]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

[LaFours]

In addition to the valuable perspective that you all have already submitted, somewhere I read that Raynor also has the "intangibles" that you look for in a kicker. That being that he has the proper mentality to be a kicker in this league. Couple that with his leg (which by most accounts is stronger that Cundiff's) and his youth/ability to progress and I think the decision is well-founded. I think its kind of exciting that TT & MM (who I assume was in on the decision) felt that way about the kid. Giving him the rest of training camp to prove himself will also boost his confidence in himself and that can't hurt either. All in all they have set Raynor up to succeed. It's up to him now.

Carpe Diem Raynor!

[SkinBasket]

Never thought I would see so much angst over the release of a mid to low level kicker.

[Noodle]

This actually played out pretty well for TT. He brings in the mediocre Cundiff just in case, gets a strong legged young 'un in to camp who proves he can get the job done, and then ditches the just in case guy because we don't need him now.

Cold, effective GM work, from my perspective.

Now, returning to the horse I like to beat, a great GM would have extended Longwell last year when Longwell was slumping. I'm telling you, if TT had come with the love the Monday after the Steeler game, where he missed right before halftime from 30 or something, we wouldn't be having this debate.

But, given that we are, I think TT's handling this right. And no one in his right mind believed that we had any real shot at Vinateri.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I got no problem with the Cundiff release. Raynor looks like a solid kicker and has a great leg for KO. Hey, if he boots it into the end zone instead of the 5-10 yard line like we have been seeing in the past, I'm all for it. Seems to me that kicking is more about confidence than anything else. Show confidence in the young man and likely he'll perform better.

[SkinBasket]

BTW woody, was it really necessary to make this post in one thread (the correct one), then use that post to make an entirely new thread with such a non-specific title? Its redundant and messy.

[Brohm]

Cundiff got tossed because he lipped off to the ST coach and generally had a bad attitude. Given there was not that great a difference between the two kickers, they went with youth and potential. I figure we're not a SB contender anyways lets find ourselves a good up-and comer FA...like we did with Longwell.

[woodbuck27]

As for helping you understand TT........

I think TT is just like any other good GM when evaluating talent. Like you said Woodbuck, we watch the packers closely, as close as anything else we watch, but we just don't always see the winner develop. TT most likely saw that Rayner had a stronger leg than Cuniff, had more potential, and was almost, if not, as accurate. There was no clear winner at this position, that's why TT did what he did.

I just can't see this happening with Jon Ryan because IMO he is the clear winner. He out punts BJ by an average of almost 10 yards and his hang time is just getting better. If Jon Ryan was to get cut, I would also need help understanding that move.

I'm concerned about just that being the case. Harvey really got me to thinking, and Jon Ryan has to get the ball off faster and improve some on consistency with his hang time.

He has to be able to angle the ball more consistently out of bounds, as deep as possible, and stop shanking the ball.

DAM. Last season - poor BJ Sander was too often, it semed to me, having to punt from way back near OUR end of the field - from around the 20 yard line back, and that pressure had to hurt him.

Thanks. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! HOLD THE FAITH !!

[Brohm]

Just think its funny that Longwell beat out the 3rd round pick Brett Conway and now we are hoping that a FA punter beats out the current 3rd rounder BJ Sanders :mrgreen: Just say no to using picks on punters/kickers.... :razz:

[BlueBrewer]

Why couldn't we have Raynor for a kick off specialist and 50=yarders and sign a proven vet for place kicking

[woodbuck27]

pittstang5;

It's interesting that as you expressed that maybe Billy Cundiff does get back in the door. Maybe - Ted Thompson doesn't like either of them, and because Billy Cundiff is the Vet bet. the two, (he was upfront with Cundiff) and said maybe - something like this;

" you'll possibly be better off trying out elsewhere now Billy, as I can't gurantee you a job in Green Bay but it's up to you ". . . and Billy decided to ask to be released? It's difficult to speculate on. I was - quite frankly shocked that Cubdiff was released this soon. moreso this AM when i awoke.I'm always slow -a day late in my REAL reactions to thing by self discipline personal training.

I try to stay very cool and people who know me - know that when I'm not "just there" something serious is going down with me. I never stay upset very long - unless it's a matter of betrayal.

I believe that Dave Raynor has to show he has it in the next two preseason games pittstang5 or he's gone too. Raynor is younger and full of piss n' vinegar, and he wants the job and feels it's his. Good for him and he has a mighty leg and is unproven but so what!! he has to get it done or he's at the EXIT door.

Now he has to prove he's OUR kicker.

Maybe - as Packer fans here, we'll get a better handle on who Ted Thompson is but I've never observed many in PRO sports that is harder to read. I can't trust any man unless I know him. Ted thompson has alot to do with my LOVE of the Packers.

Let me see. I've been just there (in the NFL) for about 46 - 47 Year's. DAM that has been a short time. :mrgreen:

Being Canadian, I observe the NHL and have done so since I was a boy of 7-8 years of age. Lots of the press discuss's the varios teams Head coach and also the GM's in the National hockey League (NHL). Hockey is almost a religion up here. Football is popular, but NFL football would take a second seat to the CFL, Canadian Football League.

Hockey and Baseball as well, are really bigger from a standpoint of fan support/interest than the NFL I'd bet, but we love the NFL as well. What does a sportsfan do come Sunday and especially monday but watch the NFL?

Trades are BIG in the NHL, and the fans here are all over them. Same as MLB. It's different on that front ( in the NFL ) even moreso than in the CFL, People like Harvey or Patler ( and several other really strong football people here ) may have a grip on why that's the case?

PACKERRATS.

I have an agenda, of wanting this Forum, to be a place where we all learn alot more, about the inner sanctums of NFL football, and the way the game is set in strategy ( the technicle side of the game) ; so as to enhance OUR experience as fans, of not only the Packers but the NFL.

Posters here, should be ready to supply competent information to the PACKERRATS Forum, for what it's worth to the whole. Just like we do in Romper room.Really be there for ecveryone and none of that . . . what in "F" does he know attitude in here.

Smart people act SMART. Intelligence/smarts has little to do with arrogance and ignorance and attacks that are very minimal at PACKERRATS.

This place is getting better and it should. We deserve that much from one another when the World is a mess. :mrgreen:

Thanks so much for your response pittstang5. It was solid/interesting.

GO PACKERS ! HOLD THE FAITH in 2006 and BEYOND !!

[CaliforniaCheez]

Raynor is younger and cheaper.

[woodbuck27]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

Patler:

Your saying,I believe?

That "in fact" - the HC and ST's Coach and GM Ted Thompson - they made their choice now, and it's Dave Raynor as OUR kicker for better or worse for the season or immediate future.

GO PACKER ! FAITH FOR OUR FUTURE !!

[woodbuck27]

he has also said a lot about hanging out behind the bench and observing the way players interact in forming a team environment. It is possible that Cundiff was not kicking particularly well, but perhaps better than Raynor, but Raynor has a better relationship with the holders and staff and that with him being young, while he might not be the guy we end up with, TT saw more potential in him than Cundiff. Cundiff is a vet and should be kicking better than the youngin' by a much wider margin right now. Maybe Cundiff is as good as he's gonna get and Raynor is showing improvement. There are a lot of possible reasons for this one when on the surface, it might look...well...odd.

Hello Ziggy.

A woman's intuitive thinking can never be discounted as not the fact of a matter. :mrgreen:

Thanks MJ.

GO PACKERS ! HOLD THE FAITH FOR OUR FUTURE !!

[woodbuck27]

How can I be better prepared for the release of either punter Jon Ryan and /or WR Ruvell Martin?

They won't be released, you have my word... :neutral:

I believe they both have fought hard for the privalege of being Green Bay Packers PaCkFan_n_MD. I am sure pulling for these young prospects.

Thanks, PaCkFan_n_MD. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! FAITH in the BEST 53 Man Roster and PS for 2006 !!

[woodbuck27]

I would have to think that if Billy Cundiff can't kick well enough in the semi-dome of warm weather Dallas, who were desperate for a kicker, he would have a hard time kicking in Green Bay.

Good point man! Thanks Badgepack. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! FOR - PICKING ONLY THE MOST DESERVING PLAYERS !!

[woodbuck27]

I'm not gonna jump on TT for this one. He did try to sign Vinateri but it just did'nt work out. The way I see it, some team will cut a promising kicker with-in the next week or 2 and it will be up to TT to find him. That's what he gets paid for.

Packnut;

Thanks packer fan. You and I thing similiarly.

I call it "the Belichick method". :mrgreen:

THE PACKERS ! WILL COMPETE AGAIN !!

[Bretsky]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

Suffer short term for long term gain ????

Are you talking the offensive line or kickers now ? Sounds the same to me

[woodbuck27]

In addition to the valuable perspective that you all have already submitted, somewhere I read that Raynor also has the "intangibles" that you look for in a kicker. That being that he has the proper mentality to be a kicker in this league. Couple that with his leg (which by most accounts is stronger that Cundiff's) and his youth/ability to progress and I think the decision is well-founded. I think its kind of exciting that TT & MM (who I assume was in on the decision) felt that way about the kid. Giving him the rest of training camp to prove himself will also boost his confidence in himself and that can't hurt either. All in all they have set Raynor up to succeed. It's up to him now.

Carpe Diem Raynor!

Yes LaFours. I think so too. I don't disagree with going to Dave Raynor but the timing did surprise me . . and here we go !!

As Patler said it's done. That was what I interpreted from a National Press reporter's account of this move, as well. Was it Adam Scheffler? I read too much. :mrgreen:

Thanks for your response Packer fan.

GO PACKERS ! HOLD FOR FAITH. We are the Green Bay Packers as fans.

What a privalege we enjoy !!

[woodbuck27]

Never thought I would see so much angst over the release of a mid to low level kicker.

Good day, SkinBasket. Nice to see you post here. :mrgreen:

How's it shaken out?

You get in here (as you can), and sort all this stuff out Ehh!!

Trusting that LIFE is treating you well.

my name is Ed.

GO PACKERS ! FAITH FOR 2006 !!

[woodbuck27]

This actually played out pretty well for TT. He brings in the mediocre Cundiff just in case, gets a strong legged young 'un in to camp who proves he can get the job done, and then ditches the just in case guy because we don't need him now.

Cold, effective GM work, from my perspective.

Now, returning to the horse I like to beat, a great GM would have extended Longwell last year when Longwell was slumping. I'm telling you, if TT had come with the love the Monday after the Steeler game, where he missed right before halftime from 30 or something, we wouldn't be having this debate.

But, given that we are, I think TT's handling this right. And no one in his right mind believed that we had any real shot at Vinateri.

Hey Noodle:

I LOVE IT !!!!

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Your telling it - the way it must be told on any given FRIDAY.

Beautiful Man - EX CELL ENT !! :mrgreen: X 10

and that's ALL he (Noodle) wrote.

Have a GREAT WEEKEND Noodle.

GO PACKERS !!

[woodbuck27]

I got no problem with the Cundiff release. Raynor looks like a solid kicker and has a great leg for KO. Hey, if he boots it into the end zone instead of the 5-10 yard line like we have been seeing in the past, I'm all for it. Seems to me that kicking is more about confidence than anything else. Show confidence in the young man and likely he'll perform better.

" I'm all for it. Seems to me that kicking is more about confidence than anything else. Show confidence in the young man and likely he'll perform better. " Cheesehead Craig

DAM ! STRAIGHT !! PACKER FAN !!

YOU gotta LOVE it .

There is nothing like straight talk. Now let's go for a beer. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! LET's GO FOR STAIGHT !!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Woody,

I think we might need to put a 1000 posts/day limit on you.
:D

Holy cripes! I'm assuming you are retired.
:D

You have good things to say, but man I can keep up with this. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it's driving me to skip over many of your posts.

[woodbuck27]

Why couldn't we have Raynor for a kick off specialist and 50=yarders and sign a proven vet for place kicking

Specialist - YOU think?

That this is the NFL ?

OK Screw it !!

Let's set a motion - to NFL Front office - to increase the 53- man Roster to 54.

The Packers deserve more !! :mrgreen:

I LOVE your Avatar - Family Guy.

We get that series up here on Sunday night's and I seldom miss it.

It's very fun to watch. Better than SouthPark in the issues it tackles.

That Army Guy is funny too.

Have a great weekend !! :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS !! FOR A BIGGER ROSTER AND MORE . . . ALOT MORE SPECIALISTS !!

[Noodle]

Woody, you are the most positive guy in the world -- they breed 'em right up in New Brunwick is all I can figure.

Have a great weekend yourself, Outlaw Rat.

[woodbuck27]

BTW woody, was it really necessary to make this post in one thread (the correct one), then use that post to make an entirely new thread with such a non-specific title? Its redundant and messy.

SkinBasket - your burning my ass !! EXCELLENT !!!

Actually. . .

I want special attention Skin.

I'm having to replace Harlan of late, because that Chicken Shit - had too many taco's.

What in heck is that all about Mr. Huckleberry. Get yourself back here because your obviously missed.

You too Tank !!! Your too young to fall "in Love". R.E.J.E.C.T !!!

GO PACKERS ! FAITH !! IF YOU CAN GRIP IT HOLD IT !!!

[Patler]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

Suffer short term for long term gain ????

Are you talking the offensive line or kickers now ? Sounds the same to me

What I an suggesting is that there are always "growing pains" with young players and even more so with young, unrefined talented players. Maybe Cundiff was a bit better, an extra fieldgoal or two this year, but he likely will not ever be anything different than he already is. Rayner may have the physical ability to exceed what Cundiff is, but it might take him a season of experience to get there.

The "safe" pick is to look short term. But ultimately that's what gets you into the playoffs, maybe, but early exits from them. To build a true Super Bowl contender, sometime you have to take a chance on unproven, unrefined talent, hoping you can develope the player in a couple seasons to be one of the better ones at his position.

The Packers have done that in the past, with players like Timmerman, Rivera and Wahle, especially Rivera and Wahle. Look back at what was written when they first started. Even at the end of his first full year as a starter Rivera was ranked as the weak link on a line that was not otherwise necessarily one of the best in the league. Wahle started off and on for several years before he settled in. Timmerman came up to speed fairly quickly, but was very unproven and shaky when he first took over.

Same for Tauscher. What in Tauscher's background made anyone think he could step in as a rookie and play? He was kept for potential and the fact that he was versatile. I believe they were hoping he wouldn't have to play as a rookie, but he did and met the challenge.

Last year, Collins was allowed to develop on the fly.

This year it might be one or more of the lineman, Jennings or Rayner. There will be growing pains, but two years from now you might be glad it was done.

I much prefer the long-term outlook to the short term outlook that some teams follow. True contenders are built by long-term planning, not necessarily deciding based on what is best this season.

As I said before, if rayner flops there will be Cundiff-like kickers available to bring in, maybe even Cundiff himself. This was an attempt by the Packers to be better than what Cundiff is. It may work, it may not, but it is well worth taking the chance, it really is not all that much of a risk.

[woodbuck27]

Cundiff got tossed because he lipped off to the ST coach and generally had a bad attitude. Given there was not that great a difference between the two kickers, they went with youth and potential. I figure we're not a SB contender anyways lets find ourselves a good up-and comer FA...like we did with Longwell.

Jaysus!!

That almost seems like normal life. Then you have to "kiss ass" in the NFL then??

Highly Civilized !!

DAM !!!

GO PACKERS ! GO SOMEWHERE !!!

[Bretsky]

For the record I don't give a crap about Billy C being cut; he was nothing special and neither is our kicker at this point.

I was just being a wise ass regarding the OL. But to answer ...

""Same for Tauscher. What in Tauscher's background made anyone think he could step in as a rookie and play? He was kept for potential and the fact that he was versatile. I believe they were hoping he wouldn't have to play as a rookie, but he did and met the challenge. ""

HE WAS A BADGER. Haven't you been listening. :wink:

.................and no need to bring up Ferrario :mrgreen:


Cheers,
B

[woodbuck27]

Raynor is younger and cheaper.

Hey TED !!

Is that YOU?

[woodbuck27]

Woody, you are the most positive guy in the world -- they breed 'em right up in New Brunwick is all I can figure.

Have a great weekend yourself, Outlaw Rat.

I was so fortunate Noodle to have a woderful Family.

We did things together alot, and I was allowed to always include my Buds - that always said I was the most fortunate fella because of the LOVE we shared.

I appreciate that kindness Noodle.

Right back at ya !! :mrgreen:

Now. . . once in awhile - I'm tested, but I can fall back on who my Family is.

Blessings to YOU Noodle. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! Gooooo !!

[mraynrand]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

And at some point you have to give the job to a guy and let him get comfortable with the holder and kicking all the kicks. This is not a position you want unsettled up to the last moment if at all possible. The Packers were incredibly lucky after Wolf inexplicably drafted a kicker in the third round (Conway) to get Longwell at the last minute. Still, Longwell lost them a game on a chip shot FG vs. Philly in Week 2 in 1997. So it helps to have this situation settled sooner than later, if possible.

[woodbuck27]

Woody,

I think we might need to put a 1000 posts/day limit on you.
:D

Holy cripes! I'm assuming you are retired.
:D

You have good things to say, but man I can keep up with this. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it's driving me to skip over many of your posts.

YOU gotta pay attention Harvey.

Don't miss a thing.

I read ALL your stuff SMARTY. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! HOLD FAITH in 2006 Packer Fans !! That's ALL we've GOT.

[woodbuck27]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

Suffer short term for long term gain ????

Are you talking the offensive line or kickers now ? Sounds the same to me

Bring " that cream " to the TOP, B. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! LOOK UP . . . LOOK WAYYYYY UP !

[Lare]

TTs moves make a lot more sense to me since I changed the criteria I was using to evaluate them.

I used to look at them from a perspective of "Is this going to help us win games?", and I just ended up being more and more confused with every move. But then I started looking at all TT's decisions since he came here from the perspective of "Is this going to help us get better draft picks" and everything started to get clearer. Try it, you'd be surprised.

IMO, TT is a draft junkie. It's what he lives for, it's all he's ever done and lived for. He hates FA, he doesn't believe in trades (especially if he has to give up draft picks). Draft day to him is the World Series of Poker.

Don't believe me? Just wait and see where we're drafting next year after the moves TT makes this year. :wink:

[woodbuck27]

Cundiff is what he is.
Rayner can be better than Cundiff, even if he isn't right now.

The fact that TT and MM are willing to suffer some short term pain for a potential long term advantage is a VERY good thing for Packer fans.

Besides, if Rayner flops, there will be kickers available who are the equivalent of Cundiff, and maybe even Cundiff himself.

Suffer short term for long term gain ????

Are you talking the offensive line or kickers now ? Sounds the same to me

What I an suggesting is that there are always "growing pains" with young players and even more so with young, unrefined talented players. Maybe Cundiff was a bit better, an extra fieldgoal or two this year, but he likely will not ever be anything different than he already is. Rayner may have the physical ability to exceed what Cundiff is, but it might take him a season of experience to get there.

The "safe" pick is to look short term. But ultimately that's what gets you into the playoffs, maybe, but early exits from them. To build a true Super Bowl contender, sometime you have to take a chance on unproven, unrefined talent, hoping you can develope the player in a couple seasons to be one of the better ones at his position.

The Packers have done that in the past, with players like Timmerman, Rivera and Wahle, especially Rivera and Wahle. Look back at what was written when they first started. Even at the end of his first full year as a starter Rivera was ranked as the weak link on a line that was not otherwise necessarily one of the best in the league. Wahle started off and on for several years before he settled in. Timmerman came up to speed fairly quickly, but was very unproven and shaky when he first took over.

Same for Tauscher. What in Tauscher's background made anyone think he could step in as a rookie and play? He was kept for potential and the fact that he was versatile. I believe they were hoping he wouldn't have to play as a rookie, but he did and met the challenge.

Last year, Collins was allowed to develop on the fly.

This year it might be one or more of the lineman, Jennings or Rayner. There will be growing pains, but two years from now you might be glad it was done.

I much prefer the long-term outlook to the short term outlook that some teams follow. True contenders are built by long-term planning, not necessarily deciding based on what is best this season.

As I said before, if rayner flops there will be Cundiff-like kickers available to bring in, maybe even Cundiff himself. This was an attempt by the Packers to be better than what Cundiff is. It may work, it may not, but it is well worth taking the chance, it really is not all that much of a risk.

I'll take a dozen of those, Patler. How long for delivery? :mrgreen:

[woodbuck27]

TTs moves make a lot more sense to me since I changed the criteria I was using to evaluate them.

I used to look at them from a perspective of "Is this going to help us win games?", and I just ended up being more and more confused with every move. But then I started looking at all TT's decisions since he came here from the perspective of "How is this going to help us get better draft picks" and everything started to get clearer. Try it, you'd be surprised.

IMO, TT is a draft junkie. It's what he lives for, it's all he's ever done and lived for. He hates FA, he doesn't believe in trades (especially if he has to give up draft picks). Draft day to him is the World Series of Poker.

Don't believe me? Just wait and see where we're drafting next year after the moves TT makes this year. :wink:

Lare:

Likely many here by now understand or know me, and if not I'll come right out with it.

For me now. It's about the Vet's.

That certainly isn't a product or factor established by my age, and I'll never be really mature (PLEASE - NOT EVER THAT) but . . .

ALL to do with LOYALTY to OUR VET's like Ahman Green and Brett Favre and Donald Driver ,Bubba Franks and the others that have given so much to us "the fans'. Many here are there too and also REAL in the sense of Packer History and PRIDE.

Ted Thompson "in fact" has to be OUR star for OUR future. I don't believe that Ted Thompson won't be, based on his record to date in the draft because he certainly shows promise.

I question his Philosopy on offense because I'm like ALL here not sure what it actuall is. TT didn't step up there in the Off Season as I hoped he would.

From who I am as a Packer fan :

I am selfish. I want to see Favre and Green and OUR Vet's do very well this season.

I realize that we don't get to "even deep in the playoffs" from a standpoint of simple analysis - and " I'm LOYAL to the Vet's."

I believe, that Brett Favre is sincere when he says we have potential and this week, we are aware that Charles Woodson, feels the same as Brett. We have their leadership and experience, and so does Head Coach Mike McCarthy

ALL that encorages me as a Packer fan.

I'm here now.

One game at a time. Game to game - let's hope for the BEST !!

Let's ALL just roll with that. Let's feel that it's not ALL "doom and gloom".

Why?

That's the only way to float - now. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! Let's kick some ass !!

[Patler]

TTs moves make a lot more sense to me since I changed the criteria I was using to evaluate them.

I used to look at them from a perspective of "Is this going to help us win games?", and I just ended up being more and more confused with every move. But then I started looking at all TT's decisions since he came here from the perspective of "Is this going to help us get better draft picks" and everything started to get clearer. Try it, you'd be surprised.

IMO, TT is a draft junkie. It's what he lives for, it's all he's ever done and lived for. He hates FA, he doesn't believe in trades (especially if he has to give up draft picks). Draft day to him is the World Series of Poker.

Don't believe me? Just wait and see where we're drafting next year after the moves TT makes this year. :wink:

I think to understand TT the perspective is to ask this question, "Will this likely help us be a true contender in 2007, 2008 and later, or is this just to help us win a game or so in 2006?"

I'm not sure TT cares what their record is in 2006. His goal is to lay the groundwork to be a true playoff contender sometime in the future, and most of his decisions are based on that.

[Packnut]

TTs moves make a lot more sense to me since I changed the criteria I was using to evaluate them.

I used to look at them from a perspective of "Is this going to help us win games?", and I just ended up being more and more confused with every move. But then I started looking at all TT's decisions since he came here from the perspective of "Is this going to help us get better draft picks" and everything started to get clearer. Try it, you'd be surprised.

IMO, TT is a draft junkie. It's what he lives for, it's all he's ever done and lived for. He hates FA, he doesn't believe in trades (especially if he has to give up draft picks). Draft day to him is the World Series of Poker.

Don't believe me? Just wait and see where we're drafting next year after the moves TT makes this year. :wink:

I think to understand TT the perspective is to ask this question, "Will this likely help us be a true contender in 2007, 2008 and later, or is this just to help us win a game or so in 2006?"

I'm not sure TT cares what their record is in 2006. His goal is to lay the groundwork to be a true playoff contender sometime in the future, and most of his decisions are based on that.

I would hope that is'nt really what he is thinking. He has a responsibility to at least put a competitive team out on the field.

[Patler]

TTs moves make a lot more sense to me since I changed the criteria I was using to evaluate them.

I used to look at them from a perspective of "Is this going to help us win games?", and I just ended up being more and more confused with every move. But then I started looking at all TT's decisions since he came here from the perspective of "Is this going to help us get better draft picks" and everything started to get clearer. Try it, you'd be surprised.

IMO, TT is a draft junkie. It's what he lives for, it's all he's ever done and lived for. He hates FA, he doesn't believe in trades (especially if he has to give up draft picks). Draft day to him is the World Series of Poker.

Don't believe me? Just wait and see where we're drafting next year after the moves TT makes this year. :wink:

I think to understand TT the perspective is to ask this question, "Will this likely help us be a true contender in 2007, 2008 and later, or is this just to help us win a game or so in 2006?"

I'm not sure TT cares what their record is in 2006. His goal is to lay the groundwork to be a true playoff contender sometime in the future, and most of his decisions are based on that.

I would hope that is'nt really what he is thinking. He has a responsibility to at least put a competitive team out on the field.


But its not that one way he goes 0-16 and the other 8-8. My point is that he doesn't care if they are 7-9, 8-8 or 9-7 this year. His concern is that a few year from now they are legitimately considered to be a contender.

[Lare]

I'm not arguing the fact that some of TT's moves may actually help us be a contending team again at some point in the future.

All I'm saying is that all of his moves will in some way help us to have a chance at the #1 pick in next year's draft.

[brindle]

To get a sense of what TT's strategy for this team might be, read The Packer Way. It is a management book written by Wolf describing his philosophy in putting the 1996 team together.

[woodbuck27]

I'm not arguing the fact that some of TT's moves may actually help us be a contending team again at some point in the future.

All I'm saying is that all of his moves will in some way help us to have a chance at the #1 pick in next year's draft.

WOW !! I think your saying he's tossing it?

That is a BOLD position Lare. :mrgreen:

I'm certainly going to be studying the top ten prospects coming out in the draft April 2007 soon. I do that as I'm somewhat a student of the game and I look at the TOP 100 prospects - 200 with some interest. I don't do it thinking we get a top ten pick. I may predict 7 and 9 as OUR seaso's record but I have no real idea what we'll do as yet. I ned to see more in TC.

I want to see it too.

Last season, with all OUR best available to start Vs. "the Lions", I felt that 4-12 was the record, we would not enjoy.

I was very concerned with alot the Ted Thompson seemed to do, that felt strange to me since his arrival what in Jan.2005? He made me shake my head alot, and I'm a little more comfortable with him now, but not yet on his bandwagon. I don't hand over TRUST. It has to be earned (in my books). Especially from Ted Thompson as I'm a passionate Packer fan.It's "the Packers every day for me. EVERY DAY or most.i take breaks but not at this time of the year.

I just wish I was more excited !! I ask myself all the time.Whay if favre hadn't come back. I almost think that some here really believe he's the MAN at QB. Haha !!

I really think OUR Offense is set up (somehow) and I have never understood why TT has allowed that.

The success of the team is predicated by the strength of the OL. Otherwise the QB, RB ,WR and TE skills are compromised over time in the season.

We loose the battle of the clock. We loose it worse as the season progress's. Loose 4 games win one here or there because the opposition has a bad day or it's just worse than OUR BEST which is BAD. Some games. Whatever we have out there. Hits on most cylinders that day.

Also, we have a man with an awesome ability to somehow get us a win or nearly pull it out ( Brett Favre )and now maybe Ahman Green and toss in DD and Bubba who play their hearts out, and that makes it look like were not really far off. It just looks like that.There talent leadership and overall skills have to be replaced and that takes years.

Without that solid OL.

The oppositions defense puts a pounding on OUR Offensive starters and injuries are imminent /probable (adversity - that is guranteed).

The offensive depth we don't have to begin the season, gets thinner as the season progress's and the viscious ciycle begins.

The Defence is on the field too long, as we begin the season, yet we win one here or there because of scattered decent performances on both sides of the ball. Ultimately, the defense wears down, long before the season is over. Injuries (adversity) there as well.

Horrific injuries on both sides of the ball are also a possibility.injuries to older men that ends their careers.

That's almost. . . fricken EVIL.

That can't be.

That sounds like "a Stephen King Horror/thriller", with the movie script soon to come.

Ted Thompson and the Packers have to determine and present their best 53 Man Roster at the completion of TC. The media would cruicify Ted Thompson and the Packer fans burn him in effigy if he's designing a failure on OUR side to allow him better position in the draft.

Someone would shoot his ass off. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I rather think that Ted Thompson really doesn't have a stitch of a clue, or is naive about OUR Offense, some of both.

PACKERRATS could form a Committee, and act as the Packer GM by Committee and given the money we had under the CAP this off season. Have a better product on the field than Ted Thompson will ever have an opportunity to choose now for the 2006 season. I really believe that.

I am sure of this !!

Ted Thompson can't help that he's learning. He has a well paid Scouting Dept. that has every access to the Countries best future 3rd ,4th ,5th round draft picks and those that may be available to us in round two. The round one and two - three picks are pretty fundamentle, if anyone spends some 100's of hours studying the talent pool in the draft.

Yet Ted has access to all players available for the draft and he has a team of Scouts that send him lots of info. to set up OUR draft board.

That is where the real time and effort lies as the cost to longterm reward is most beneficial for us.

Could ted be really sandbaging for a higher draft pick.The Number ONE pick?

Brett Favre alone with any WR will fueck that up !! You could be that WR Lare. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! FAITH PACKER FANS !!

Let's cancel the DRAFT in 2007 and screw Ted UP !! Take away his fix. :mrgreen:

[the_idle_threat]

To get a sense of what TT's strategy for this team might be, read The Packer Way. It is a management book written by Wolf describing his philosophy in putting the 1996 team together.

Welcome to the forum, brindle!

That title rings a bell ... Wasn't it kinda geared toward business management, using the Packers a a model? Or am I thinking of something else?