Minicamp June 2012

[pbmax]

Woodson not at safety at all. Did not play in base at all (neither CB or S) as he works his way back into football shape after missing OTAs.

In individual drills, worked with CBs.

Mike Vandermause ‏@MikeVandermause
MM: Woodson's role may change somewhere between 6 and 8% compared to where he's played in past. Not re-creating the wheel with him.

[pbmax]

Rob Demovsky ‏@RobDemovsky

Here's the DNP list: Green, Peprah, Burnett, Matthews, Zombo, Brooks, Johnny Jones, Daniels, Sherrod, Quarless. Burnett is a new DNP.

[pbmax]

Also,

Pete Dougherty ‏@PeteDougherty
One other player not on field who practiced at OTAs, S Anthony Levine

And further proof that Jersey #91 should be retired due to curse, Lawrence Guy left practice early.
Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde
As @DennisKrause1 observes as Lawrence Guy leaves #Packers practice, No. 91 has bad karma: Justin Harrell, Joe Johnson, Jonathan Brown ...

Bush ahead of Shields in base D.

[MadtownPacker]

Yeah but who got arrested?

[Fritz]

Damn. Lawrence Guy might be the 7th round version of Justin Harrell.

[Smeefers]

It's suddenly talking points about how the media made too much about C wood being at Safety or CB. I heard it on the radio and read it on ESPN. Wood's always moved around and he's never going to be in a traditional safety role. They're going to put him on the field where he has a chance to make a play. If that's safety, so be it. If it's nickle, then that's it. Then they talked about the complexity of DC's defense and how he probably just has a position named Woodson.

Then Seifert agreed that they made too much out of it, but defended the articles by saying that Woods headed for canton, so any change to his role deserves to be examined - which I think is fair.

[Little Whiskey]

Also,


And further proof that Jersey #91 should be retired due to curse, Lawrence Guy left practice early.
Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde
As @DennisKrause1 observes as Lawrence Guy leaves #Packers practice, No. 91 has bad karma: Justin Harrell, Joe Johnson, Jonathan Brown ...

Bush ahead of Shields in base D.

I always think of Brian Noble as 91......another guy who was hurt. bad knees if i remember right.

[Guiness]

Bush ahead of Shields in base D.

um, what? At CB?

[Fritz]

It's suddenly talking points about how the media made too much about C wood being at Safety or CB. I heard it on the radio and read it on ESPN. Wood's always moved around and he's never going to be in a traditional safety role. They're going to put him on the field where he has a chance to make a play. If that's safety, so be it. If it's nickle, then that's it. Then they talked about the complexity of DC's defense and how he probably just has a position named Woodson.

Then Seifert agreed that they made too much out of it, but defended the articles by saying that Woods headed for canton, so any change to his role deserves to be examined - which I think is fair.

So how down-to-the-minutiae does MM actually get when he says he sees Woodson's role changing by "6 - 8%"?

I love that. 6 - 8 %.

[pbmax]

um, what? At CB?

Yeppers. At CB in base. Shields in for nickel with Woodson in the slot.

[RashanGary]

I read that Capers did play Woodson at safety last year. They call it corner Okie. Okie is 3-4. Although they played very little of any version of the 3-4 last year.

Capers said you could see more corner Okie this year. It sounds like Woodson is going to be at safety a little more. Maybe 6%-8% more if it's possible to read between the lines there.

Whitt said he didn't play a down of outside corner in the Lions game and maybe a couple handfuls in the entire NFC north games. If you have 7 big guys on the field, keeping Woodson inside makes a lot more sense than strapping him down outside. His real position is inside-corner/rover/offenses worst nightmare. Whitt calls Woodson's spot the money spot. He didn't call it corner or safety. Just "the money spot." Wood is a different kind of player. People get caught up labeling things. Some things just don't fit a label quite right. Woodson is that kind of player and plays that kind of role.

I could see Wood playing outside against jumbo/short yardage looks. I don't see him out there much at all, really. And like usual, we're not going to see much 3-4, so you're still going to have 2 traditional safeties on the field almost all of the time anyway.


If corner and safety are the only two positions on the football field and nickle corner is still considered corner, I'd call Woodson a corner. If him playing outside is what makes him a corner, I'd call him a safety. I think he'll play more safety than outside corner but neither will come remotely close to his inside rover spot.

[pbmax]

Link to Capers saying more corner Oakie? Haven't seen that. Or don't remember it.

Corner Oakie was used less last year than 2010 according to McGinn, so an increase might look similar to the Super Bowl year. I have seen McCarthy say he might want to see more base and resist the urge to go nickel as early as they did the last two years. That could mean more corner Oakie. But the talk this offseason was not corner Oakie more on first down. It was moving Woodson to safety to replace Collins. And it doesn't look like that is happening. And it shouldn't. Woodson is not a safety.

But McCarthy, who tracks reps like an accountant tracks beans, already has an estimate of how much Woodson's role might change and its 6-8% of snaps. Which would add roughly 60-80 plays of Woodson somewhere he wasn't last year.

So the entire offseason of speculation that Woodson will be moved to safety is once again off target. If things go according to plan, and they almost never do, he will play the rough equivalent of one game at positions different than last year.

[RashanGary]

To be real, PB, the Packers play very little 3-4 defense. It's a small fraction compared to 5 and 6 DB looks. So to say Woodson would be playing safety in nickle defense. . . I don't think anyone or their mother was saying that.

When it comes to your 3-4 look. If you call that base (and I know you do.) then Woodson playing "corner okie" in the 3-4 looks would mean he's a "safety."

But since 3-4 is such a small percentage of our defense, and Woodson's primary role is as an inside corner. . . . The reality is, he's a corner, even if he plays safety in your famous base 3-4 defense.


I think he's an inside corner/rover who would take the place of a safety when we go 3-4. Always thought that, and now it's playing out that way.

[RashanGary]

If I had to list your starters on defense last year, I would go like this. . . .

Tramon Williams (outside cover corner)
Sam Shields (outside cover corner)
Charles Woodson (inside corner, aka "money spot")

Clay Matthews (OLB)
Shit wad Walden (OLB)
Bishop (ILB)
Hawk (ILB)

Raji DL
Pickett DL


I call this our starting defense because the reality is, we start and end games in nickle defense. I don't know how you'd call the 3rd DL from last year a starter when we played 3 DL maybe 25% of the snaps we played with 3 CB's.

[Upnorth]

I'm with guiness when he said oh shit with out saying . I like Bush but not as our starting CB, and I don't like what this says about shields. I envisioned big things for him, not this.

[Fritz]

Is he still getting wake-up calls from the front desk???

[Brandon494]

I'm with guiness when he said oh shit with out saying . I like Bush but not as our starting CB, and I don't like what this says about shields. I envisioned big things for him, not this.

Don't take anything from that, Shields is still ahead of Bush on the depth chart and has been looking good in the OTAs so far along with Davon House. Of course they aren't in pads yet so let's wait to see how they do in training camp but I still like Shields pontenial.

[Smeefers]

Don't take anything from that, Shields is still ahead of Bush on the depth chart and has been looking good in the OTAs so far along with Davon House. Of course they aren't in pads yet so let's wait to see how they do in training camp but I still like Shields pontenial.

Man, the world is going to burn. I'm agreeing with Brandon more and more. Bush is their lead in the base D because he's a better tackler and can evade blockers better to get after the run. The reason Shields is in at Nickle is because he's a much better cover CB. If they're playing Nickle 60-70% of the time, that puts Shields as the starter.

[Pugger]

Is he still getting wake-up calls from the front desk???

:lol:

[Upnorth]

Don't take anything from that, Shields is still ahead of Bush on the depth chart and has been looking good in the OTAs so far along with Davon House. Of course they aren't in pads yet so let's wait to see how they do in training camp but I still like Shields pontenial.

No damn it, I want to work myself up into a panic now. Stop trying to make sense of it. The OTA's are the closest to packerfootball until TC so I'm gonna over react as I see fit!

[pbmax]

To be real, PB, the Packers play very little 3-4 defense. It's a small fraction compared to 5 and 6 DB looks. So to say Woodson would be playing safety in nickle defense. . . I don't think anyone or their mother was saying that.

When it comes to your 3-4 look. If you call that base (and I know you do.) then Woodson playing "corner okie" in the 3-4 looks would mean he's a "safety."

But since 3-4 is such a small percentage of our defense, and Woodson's primary role is as an inside corner. . . . The reality is, he's a corner, even if he plays safety in your famous base 3-4 defense.


I think he's an inside corner/rover who would take the place of a safety when we go 3-4. Always thought that, and now it's playing out that way.

Which is a very long way of saying, he is not moving to safety to replace Collins. Which has been my contention all offseason.

Now watch him move there permanently.

[pbmax]

Don't take anything from that, Shields is still ahead of Bush on the depth chart and has been looking good in the OTAs so far along with Davon House. Of course they aren't in pads yet so let's wait to see how they do in training camp but I still like Shields pontenial.

According to the Twitter accounts, Whitt has benched Shields from base to make a point about tackling.

[pbmax]

Fun with practice jerseys:

https://p.twimg.com/AvXlehJCEAAaprN.jpg

That's a Oline of Newhouse-Friday-Saturday-Sunday-Bulaga.

Lang was out of the last practice with undisclosed ailment.

[pbmax]

Tyler Dunne ‏@TyDunne

Not practicing for #Packers: Johnny Jones, Cobb, A. Green, Peprah, Burnett, Levine, Brooks, Lang.

-- Harrell and Coleman got more snaps than usual
-- Harrell got stuck at 40 and lost possession in last 2 minute drill of minicamp
-- Jones and Lattimore were inside but got work at OLB
-- Dezman Moses working ahead of Erik Walden with 1s (not sure about this unless Matthews sat out a portion of practice)
-- Moses had two sacks and worked inside as well
-- Neal and Worthy were inside in nickel
-- more individual work and drill than typical
-- McCarthy praised Borel and House as being different (presumably better) players this offseason
-- Crosby hit from 70 yards

[Smidgeon]

From GBPG:

Bush, Hayward, Jerron McMillian and Brandian Ross have been working mostly at inside cornerback, so it looks like the dime back probably will come from among them. Bush, a seventh-year pro, has been getting the longest look this offseason. McMillian also is in the running for playing time at safety.

Shields and second-year pro Davon House, on the other hand, have been working almost exclusively at outside cornerback, and not in the nickel or dime spots inside. So one of those two probably will be the outside cornerback opposite Williams.

“We have a lot more alternatives than we had a year ago,” Capers said.

Interesting that McMillan is getting time at corner. And Whitt had some good praise for Hayward too saying that he doesn't give up plays or make mistakes and doesn't look like a rookie. Good news on the back end. :)

[Smidgeon]

Fun with practice jerseys:

https://p.twimg.com/AvXlehJCEAAaprN.jpg

That's a Oline of Newhouse-Friday-Saturday-Sunday-Bulaga.

Lang was out of the last practice with undisclosed ailment.

I'm guessing Sunday is actually Sitton based on the hair... Bulaga couldn't go from a crew cut to that in two years...

But I love the photo. It will be one of those classic ones pulled out every few years. :D

[RashanGary]

Which is a very long way of saying, he is not moving to safety to replace Collins. Which has been my contention all offseason.

Now watch him move there permanently.

Splitting hairs. The way it's playing out, it looks like Shields will be on the field nearly 100% of the time, with the 2nd traditional safety being our "nickle" guy. I imagine Woodson would play some outside corner in jumbo/redzone looks or if he's covering a TE or big possession type out there.

If 3-4 is your base, and the Packers are going to play corner okie as their base, Wood is a safety by traditional depth chart organization.

We've had different conversations on what is base defense. When it's convenient, you call 3-4 our base. Now that 3-4 being base means Woodson would be our starting safety in base defense and therefor our starting safety by traditional football talk, you choose to disregard it.


Regardless, we're saying the same thing, just in different ways. Woodson has no title. The way our defense is called, it's hard to say whos a starter and whos a sub guy. It's a lot of grey area and we could go round and round with nobody being, "right.", just different ways of saying the same thing.

[Brandon494]

According to the Twitter accounts, Whitt has benched Shields from base to make a point about tackling.

Oh hes a horrible tackler so I wouldn't doubt that but I still believe hes closer to the player he was his rookie season than last season.

[mission]

Oh hes a horrible tackler so I wouldn't doubt that but I still believe hes closer to the player he was his rookie season than last season.
I've said it before but I thought Shields was playing great cover corner at the end of the year. Best CB we had if you want to overlook tackling (which is hard to do, I know).

[Fritz]

Given the fun of that practice-jersey photo, where the hell were Thursday and Monday?

I hear rumors that Tuesday Weld is visiting them in their dorm rooms at night.

But on a more serious note, it'll be fascinating to watch the camp battles at corner - Shields better start tackling with gusto, or he's gonna see Davon House starting to get snaps ahead of him. And while Bush has gotten some reps ahead of Shields, that's clearly a "message" thing. But if House has improved as much as MM has said and we hope, then maybe Shields will find himself either developing a fondness for tackling or developing a fondness for getting splinters in his ass.

[Fritz]

I heard also that Dezman Moses had a big sack today.

http://www.nutsack.com/imsq/squirrel.jpg

[pbmax]

We've had different conversations on what is base defense. When it's convenient, you call 3-4 our base. Now that 3-4 being base means Woodson would be our starting safety in base defense and therefor our starting safety by traditional football talk, you choose to disregard it.

Not when its convenient, but when its facts on the ground. Woodson spent no time at safety in this camp and McCarthy said we are talking about 6-8 percent of snaps where he might be on the move.

I haven't seen the Capers quote about more corner Oakie and we haven't seen THAT translate to corner Oakie as the base 3-4. That is just speculation.

Now its possible that McCarthy hinting at playing more base and less nickel meant he wanted more corner Oakie to eliminate the weakest player on defense. But that is just a guess at this point.

Its also possible the 6-8% means corner Oakie, but that isn't guaranteed.

What we do know is that Woodson is not replacing Collins, which is what every flapping media jaw and a few on here were proposing. My contention (and Nutz's) was not that Corner Oakie would disappear, but that Woodson was not going to move full time to safety to replace Collins if he retired.

[Smidgeon]

Given the fun of that practice-jersey photo, where the hell were Thursday and Monday?

I hear rumors that Tuesday Weld is visiting them in their dorm rooms at night.

But on a more serious note, it'll be fascinating to watch the camp battles at corner - Shields better start tackling with gusto, or he's gonna see Davon House starting to get snaps ahead of him. And while Bush has gotten some reps ahead of Shields, that's clearly a "message" thing. But if House has improved as much as MM has said and we hope, then maybe Shields will find himself either developing a fondness for tackling or developing a fondness for getting splinters in his ass.

I'm not sure it's an unfondness of tackling for Shields. Remember, he's only been doing it for three years now. He admitted recently in an article on the DBs that he's still learning technique. Now, I don't know how long that excuse will last, but I'll take my lumps with Shields because of his cover abilities.

[RashanGary]

What we do know is that Woodson is not replacing Collins, which is what every flapping media jaw and a few on here were proposing. My contention (and Nutz's) was not that Corner Oakie would disappear, but that Woodson was not going to move full time to safety to replace Collins if he retired.

Woodson would be SS anyway, not FS.

But yeah, he's not a safety. Capers is creative. The NFL is going to a pass dominant league. Woodson's role is unique. Whatever he is, he's not a boundary cover guy like T-will and he's not a safety. He plays inside spot almost exclusively and dabbles in some traditional CB and some safety. He kind of lines up like a LB regularly too. He's the do everything machine.

[Fritz]

I'm not sure it's an unfondness of tackling for Shields. Remember, he's only been doing it for three years now. He admitted recently in an article on the DBs that he's still learning technique. Now, I don't know how long that excuse will last, but I'll take my lumps with Shields because of his cover abilities.

I dunno. My understanding is that Shields's problem with tackling is more about willingness, not so much about technique.

[Brandon494]

Woodson is better suited to play FS than SS IMO.

[KYPack]

+ wouldn't Friday be Black?

Or is it Black Sunday?

[Fritz]

In the Packers' case, it would have to be Black Thursday.

[Lurker64]

Woodson is better suited to play FS than SS IMO.

And Burnett honestly would be most effective as an SS who has FS skills. As a SS he can be elite, as a FS he can be above average.

[pbmax]

Apparently, Pete Dougherty read the same article about Woodson and Corner Oakie being the new base defense as Justin (on 6th page).


There are two open cornerback positions now that Charles Woodson appears set to move to safety in the base defense — Woodson will remain a slot cornerback in the nickel and dime, which the Packers probably will play on about 80 percent of their defensive snaps.

http://packersnews.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120616/PKR01/120616046/1058&located=rss

No word about House in this. He likes what Heyward and McMillan showed inside.

[Freak Out]

Gurley is 6-4 and a half and weighs 234.....that's not girly.

[MadtownPacker]

Gurley is 6-4 and a half and weighs 234.....that's not girly.
Those numbers make him eligible for bogus domestic violence charges.

[Fritz]

If Shields sees real competition around him - House, Hayward - maybe he'll step it up. Sounds like he needs a boot in the ass occasionally.

[KYPack]

Saw this in a wrap-up of OTA's from Yahoo...

"Following a season in which three undrafted players made the Packers' final 53-man roster, we hear the top candidate to follow in their footsteps could be former Tulane OLB Dezman Moses, who reportedly went out of his way to make his presence felt in the team's mandatory minicamp, saving his best efforts for the practices that were open to the media. The consensus seems to be that Moses was just as impressive as first-round rookie OLB Nick Perry."

Is this good or bad?

Is Moses a keeper or is Perry going to be a slow to develop "tweener"?

Either way, it's worth a bump.

[pbmax]

Packer Report has a recent Perry article with quotes from Kevin Green. But its behind their subscription wall. By the summaries I have seen on Twitter, Green is very excited about Perry, but I have no idea if that was from scouting him, which Green did before the draft or from the minicamp.

[KYPack]

I can't get a fix on Perry's OTA. I heard smattering of positive comments initially. He lined up on the left side, always talked to CMIII, etc. Then I heard he struggled in cover, looked lost a lot, etc.

Sounds like he's a rookie.

[Fritz]

He sure does sound like a rook. We've got to remember that guys like CMIII and Mark Tauscher - the guys that can come in and do it right from day one - are very, very rare.

Let's hope Nick Perry is a fast learner.