Hawk my be in line for the Barnett treatment. . . . If not this year, next

[RashanGary]

Bishop said Lattimore has been a really good player inside. Said DJ Smith is too. . . .


We've been through the drill. Hawk is making a lot of money. We need to resign Raji, Matthews, Rodgers, Jennings and others. . . . . If we have guys who aren't much of a drop off making 4 mil less per year. . . it makes sense to let him go.

If I was GM, and what Bishop (and the coaches are saying) is true, I'd cut Hawk. Either now, or next year.

[Bretsky]

At this point I think I have to agree with you
Enough of Average; Hawk either needs to be more of a playmaker this year or we need to upgrade there

[Joemailman]

Next year they save salary cap room by cutting Hawk. He'll be gone unless he has a great year this year.

[gbgary]

I think I have to agree with you

me too.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd be fine rolling with Smith and saving money. My bet is that Hawk has a good year. He's been up and down.

[ND72]

Again, it would cost GB MORE to cut him right now than to allow him to play the next 2 years. Not gonna happen. And I like smith, but a 5'11" 220lbs MLB in a 3-4 will not make it a full year, and as Some reporter, I think Wilde, said on twitter Friday, smith battled injuries last year before making it on the field.

[pbmax]

Just so you know, Bishop, Smith and Lattimore have all been working at the same LB spot. Its a clear attempt to confuse and disorient the opposition and the home fans.

[Joemailman]

Again, it would cost GB MORE to cut him right now than to allow him to play the next 2 years. Not gonna happen. And I like smith, but a 5'11" 220lbs MLB in a 3-4 will not make it a full year, and as Some reporter, I think Wilde, said on twitter Friday, smith battled injuries last year before making it on the field.

Smith weighs 239 pounds on a shorter frame, 3 less than Hawk. Smith's height will always be a drawback, but if he's a more instinctive player than Hawk, he could be a better player.

[KYPack]

Again, it would cost GB MORE to cut him right now than to allow him to play the next 2 years. Not gonna happen. And I like smith, but a 5'11" 220lbs MLB in a 3-4 will not make it a full year, and as Some reporter, I think Wilde, said on twitter Friday, smith battled injuries last year before making it on the field.

Joe has broken the code on this one.

This season it would cost 4 -5 hundred thousand to cut Hawk. That doesn't seem like much of a loss, but it breaks down to one year's average rookie salary. Hawk will play in GB for this season.

Next year, cutting Hawk will result in substantial savings. AJ will be here this season, but will have to play his ass off to be on the team next year.

[RashanGary]

Just so you know, Bishop, Smith and Lattimore have all been working at the same LB spot. Its a clear attempt to confuse and disorient the opposition and the home fans.

It's working :)

[Joemailman]

Still, if Hawk were to go down with an injury or be released, do people think Francois or Manning would start ahead of Smith? I would expect Smith to replace Hawk, or Bishop to slide over to Hawk's spot, with Smith taking Bishop's position.

[pbmax]

Still, if Hawk were to go down with an injury or be released, do people think Francois or Manning would start ahead of Smith? I would expect Smith to replace Hawk, or Bishop to slide over to Hawk's spot, with Smith taking Bishop's position.

There was an article before camp that talked a bit about this, how Smith was actually playing Bishop's spot and when he filled in last year. Even when Hawk went down and it was he and Francois, he had the helmet but Francois was Buck. So no, I am not sure I would expect Smith to back up both positions.

[Brandon494]

If Hawk has another season like he had last year it will be a no-brainer to cut him, I already think DJ Smith is a better player and hes cheaper.

[Patler]

It never costs more to cut a player now than in the future. It may have a greater impact against the current salary cap if he is cut now, but releasing a player sooner always saves both current cash and total salary cap over multiple years. Sometimes, the question is whether the current salary cap can absorb the hit or not. I don't think it will be a deciding factor in keeping Hawk for 2012.

Hawks contract (per the info I can find)

Signing bonus - $8 M.
Additional bonuses (roster & workout) and salaries as follows:

year - bonus/salary
2011 1.8/1.15
2012 - .550/4.4
2013 - .550/4.9
2014 - 1.05/4.9
2015 - 1.05/5.4

His 2012 cap # if kept = $6.550 M.
His 2012 cap # if cut = 6.950 M. (2012 bonuses + accelerated signing bonus, but see "Note" below). This assumes his roster bonus was due early in the year, and is not based on the final 53 man roster.

His 2013 cap # = $0 if he is cut now with all signing bonus accelerated in 2012. (But see "Note" below.)

If he is kept in 2012, but released in 2013, his 2013 cap # could take several forms:
If released before 2013 bonuses are due = $4.8 million
If released after his 2013 bonuses are due = $5.350 million


So, while there would be a small increase in the 2012 cap ($400,000.) to release him now rather than in 2013, there would be very significant savings against the 2013 cap ($4.8 M or $5.35M). The small hit to the cap in 2012 would free up a lot more cap space to help in the signings of guys like Jennings, Rodgers, Matthews, Raji, Lang, etc.

Historically, the Packers have shown a willingness to take some cap hits now for significant improvements in future salary caps. I do not expect them to do that with Hawk, because for whatever reasons they seem to value him higher than most fans do.

Not sure where their 2012 cap stands, and if the additional $400,000 would be a significant hardship on it or not, but the savings to future caps might justify the difficulty in 2012.


Note:
I believe there are still procedures in the new CBA whereby the accelerated cap hit on a released player can be bumped forward one year, in which case Hawk's salary cap # for 2012 would be $2.15 M and 2013 would be $4.8 M. If released in 2013, the $3.2 M accelerated signing bonus could be bumped into 2014. If this is the case, there would be a savings against the 2012 cap if he were cut in 2012 rather than kept.

[Upnorth]

If we have the talent to replace him then he needs to be cut. If we don't we cant afford the defence to get worse in any position. The one exception is when it comes to getting contracts signed early IMO and needing the space next year.

[RashanGary]

If we have the talent to replace him then he needs to be cut. If we don't we cant afford the defence to get worse in any position. The one exception is when it comes to getting contracts signed early IMO and needing the space next year.


I'm with ya, Patler. If we cut him now, that's 5 mil we save next year to do the same thing. Murphy said the cap was going to stay relatively flat the next couple years. Said it would make resigning players tough. If we have ILBs that are somewhere between a slight drop to a slight gain for 1/4 of the price, it only makes sense to do it.

5M/year saved for the next 3/4 years is a big deal. Goes a long way to upping a guy like Matthews.

[smuggler]

I don't think he will be cut this year for one simple reason: The product on the field. Even if it costs us $4+m in cap space, they won't risk cutting Hawk when they don't have a reliable ILB to replace him on the roster.

[Upnorth]

I don't think he will be cut this year for one simple reason: The product on the field. Even if it costs us $4+m in cap space, they won't risk cutting Hawk when they don't have a reliable ILB to replace him on the roster.

That is my thoughts as well, unless there is some negotiations on extensions on going that we are not aware of and they need the space. I think of Hawk (after last year) as an average ILB and as such he is over paid. If we can find an average ILB to replace him we would be much better off. The problem is it seems our LB corp has gone from an asset a few years ago to a bit of a liability in the interior.

[gbgary]

I keep hearing that bishop is really showing in camp. hawk may be expendable more sooner than later.

[rbaloha1]

Overpaid signal caller. For several years I have been saying to trade Hawk for a draft pick. Remember Kampman?

[smuggler]

Kampman was borderline elite for 2+ years. Hawk was never anywhere near that level at LB.

[RashanGary]

Mark Murphy says the cap is going to stay flat the next 2 or 3 years.



DJ Smith and Lattimore have gotten big praise this camp. Nelson, Cobb, Jones, Driver and Borel (also gotten big praise this camp) Woodson only makes 6.5 next year, compared to his 10.5 this year (4M roster bonus this year)


Cut Hawk now - 5M savings next year. Keep Hawk this year, and you save almost nothing next year.

Let Jennings go next off season, we save 5M from what we're paying this year, but probably 10M for what we'd have to pay him

Woodson doesn't get the roster bonus next year. That's 4M savings


That's 14M savings from this years cap number




Next years key FA

TJ Lang - Should get about 3M increase (should sign him this season or before the season I'm guessing)


Then you have the 2014 FA's and this is where it gets sticky because most of them should be resigned next offseason (the spot we're looking to save money)

Morgan Burnett (Coaches say people are going to know his name after this season. 4M)

Finley (Should be a wash. 7M now, somewhere in that area later)

James Jones (Having a great camp holding onto the ball. Shouldn't cost much more than we're paying him now and he's a good veteran #3 if he can hang onto the ball)

Kuhn (shouldn't be an increase in pay)

Clay Matthews (You'd think we re-up him either early this season, or next offseason. He's only making 1.5. Have to think he's going to get upwards of 10M

Mike Neal (If he has a big season, he could get 5M or so, we'll just say 2.5 since we never know what we're going to get)

Marshall Newhouse (if he proves to be a reliable LT, he'd be worth 5M. Let's just call it 2.5 since we never know what we're going to get)

Ryan Pickett (should come cheap)

BJ Raji (Could easily see him going from 2M to 8M)

Shields (you'd think he's worth a 2M pay raise even if he's a nickle back)

Starks (gotta think he's worth a 1.5 M pay raise)


Then there is AR. He's 2015, but he could easily be locked up next offseason or during the season (2 years early.) That's a 5M increase (since it's coming early, even if he makes 19M/year added on, it blends in with the two remaining years.)

That's about 30M in additional costs, very likely to come next offseason/season. Of course, we'll be losing Woodson within a year or two, but even then, the 14M savings plus 6 for Wood is only 20M. Even if we cut Hawk now and let Jennings go, we're still 10M in the red. If we keep Jennings and Hawk around, we're going going to be 25M in the hole. We'll have to start parting ways with guys at positions we have no backups for. How many guys are we going to have to let go to make up that 25M? ? ? Can we afford to lose guys on the OL (Bulaga for example?)



And if you look at 2015, there are some potential big pay increases there too. Bulaga, Cobb, Nelson, and any number of young players who tend to step up on our roster.

Most of the guys on our team are either young, or in their prime. We're not gaining any cap space and we're up against it right now. Of course, every year we get good young talent too and it's always cheap in the beginning.

Looking at the big picture though, we're going to have to make choices. Mid/Low priced glue guys are no-brainers. They add up though. They're 2nd contracts are bigger. We have several of those. Clay, Raji and Rodgers are no brainers. . .

The fact of the matter though, we're like any SB winning team. We're going to have to let some of them go, even the really good ones. Facts is facts. Looking ahead, you'd think it's very possible to let the ones go where we have the most talent behind them. We just don't have enough money to keep this team together. We're going to have to rely on the next wave and if we're going to do that, let's rely on the promising next wave, not the ones who look like busts.

[Joemailman]

Justin,

I believe TT has a plan, and I'll bet it doesn't include dumping Jennings. Hawk, Pickett and James Jones (#4 WR with Cobb coming on) will all be expendable. If Tramon Williams can't return to elite status, they may decide not to pay him 6-7 million a year. I think Jennings will be a Packer for life.

[Brandon494]

Sorry but it makes zero sense to let Jennings walk. Thankfully TT is our GM so I'm 100% confident Jennings is not going anywhere. TT will cut cut other players like Woodson, Pickett, or Saturday before he'll let Jennings walk. You get rid of players who are past their prime, not players who are in it.

[ThunderDan]

Sorry but it makes zero sense to let Jennings walk. Thankfully TT is our GM so I'm 100% confident Jennings is not going anywhere. TT will cut cut other players like Woodson, Pickett, or Saturday before he'll let Jennings walk. You get rid of players who are past their prime, not players who are in it.

Absolutely, you pay your young, talented players. You let go your underperforming, older, declining players or make them restructure their contract to help the team.

[Joemailman]

Jennings is the epitome of that the Packers want in a player. He's a great player, he's a team guy, he doesn't stay stupid things in the press, and he stays out of trouble off the field. Along with Rodgers and Matthews, he epitomizes what the Packers want the organization to be about.

[Patler]

A more telling thing might be this:

WTMJ pregame show had a roundtable discussion. Topics were presented, and everyone had to respond.
First question - Which player that will surprise many fans could be in danger of losing their spot?

First directed to Vic Ketchman, and he instantly said A.J Hawk. Then explained - DJ Smith is looking very good, and when you consider the others providing depth, Hawk could be in trouble.

Others mentioned were Starks, Walden, any and all backup O-linemen.

Did the powers that are the Packers tell Ketchman to put that kernel of thought out there?


Incidentally, Mark Tauscher was also a participant, along with the standard WTMJ characters. Tauscher did a very nice job. Hope he is a regular.

[pittstang5]

Due to what happened with Bishop, I highly doubt Hawk is going anywhere this year.

[Patler]

Due to what happened with Bishop, I highly doubt Hawk is going anywhere this year.

Not watching the game, but I heard he got hurt.
What happened???

[rbaloha1]

Due to what happened with Bishop, I highly doubt Hawk is going anywhere this year.

I know -- darn it!

[pittstang5]

Not watching the game, but I heard he got hurt.
What happened???

Went to make a tackle, bent back awkwardly and was rolled up on. On the field for a while. Two trainers assisted him off field, did not put any weight on it. Shaking his head the entire time coming off the field. I'm no doctor, but guessing ACL. At the very least, he's out for a couple weeks.

[OS PA]

Went to make a tackle, bent back awkwardly and was rolled up on. On the field for a while. Two trainers assisted him off field, did not put any weight on it. Shaking his head the entire time coming off the field. I'm no doctor, but guessing ACL. At the very least, he's out for a couple weeks.

I'd put my money on an injury to the patellar tendon.

[gbgary]

just read that bishop told teammates that he was optimistic that his injury isn't season ending.

[pbmax]

just read that bishop told teammates that he was optimistic that his injury isn't season ending.

Can't we just get NFL players to waive privacy rights and be able to look up their medical charts online like I do with my family? Would make this so much simpler.

[MadScientist]

Can't we just get NFL players to waive privacy rights and be able to look up their medical charts online like I do with my family? Would make this so much simpler.

They already must have some sort of waver in place or otherwise we couldn't even get the information we do get. In Bishop's case, the tests haven't been done so there isn't a full diagnosis to put out there.

Hopefully it is an MCL. Depressingly an MCL injury to Bishop is something to hope for.

[Brandon494]

Per JSOnline
Perhaps the most significant development occurred on the first play of the Packers' second defensive series. Linebacker Desmond Bishop tackled Ronnie Brown and the former Dolphin landed on Bishop's right knee. After several minutes, Bishop was helped off with what McCarthy said was a knee sprain and possible hamstring injury.

"That'd be tough," one scout said. "But D.J. Smith is a good player."

Without Bishop, A.J. Hawk would be in line for even more playing time.

"They wouldn't want that," said the scout, referring to the Packers.

[hoosier]

As much as I want to see Bishop back in the middle by sometime in November, their season does not ride on him any more than it did on Finley or Barnett in 2010. There are three, four maybe five players the Packers cannot afford to lose. Bishop isn't one of them.

[mraynrand]

Without Bishop, A.J. Hawk would be in line for even more playing time.

"They wouldn't want that," said the scout, referring to the Packers.

LOL. I'm posting on another site and they are giving me hell for suggesting that Hawk could have at least given Gates a shot on his TD route instead of deliberately getting out of his way. Hey, who is the biggest receiving weapon on the SD offense? Could it be Gates? No, really? Did Hawk blow an assignment - no. But there's nothing special there at all. No edge, no oomph, just a pud who is maybe the 9th best guy on the field for the defense.

[Joemailman]

They already must have some sort of waver in place or otherwise we couldn't even get the information we do get. In Bishop's case, the tests haven't been done so there isn't a full diagnosis to put out there.

Hopefully it is an MCL. Depressingly an MCL injury to Bishop is something to hope for.

http://www.espnmilwaukee.com/page.php?page_id=278


The Green Bay Press-Gazette’s Rob Demovsky reported that the concern is about Bishop’s hamstring and that his knee actually is OK.

[pbmax]

The source said the fear is that the Green Bay Packers starting inside linebacker will miss a good portion of the season, if not the entire season.

Oh my.

[pbmax]

A more telling thing might be this:

WTMJ pregame show had a roundtable discussion. Topics were presented, and everyone had to respond.
First question - Which player that will surprise many fans could be in danger of losing their spot?

First directed to Vic Ketchman, and he instantly said A.J Hawk. Then explained - DJ Smith is looking very good, and when you consider the others providing depth, Hawk could be in trouble.

Others mentioned were Starks, Walden, any and all backup O-linemen.

Did the powers that are the Packers tell Ketchman to put that kernel of thought out there?


Incidentally, Mark Tauscher was also a participant, along with the standard WTMJ characters. Tauscher did a very nice job. Hope he is a regular.

I think he is as he has been hired by Journal Sentinel communications and they have ties to the radio broadcast (obviously) and need to find programming for McCarren to be a part of as well. Tauscher probably plays a role there as well.

Ketchman doesn't grasp, or has been told it doesn't matter, that Smith does not practice at Hawk's spot. Several people I have read said Walden looked like he had regained his pass rush after loosing it after his arrest last year. He might be harder to shake than people assume. So'oto, at this point, seems so far to annually beat up on the bottom of the roster guys but struggle versus better competition (like he has faced in camp).

[MadScientist]

That would indicate a nasty tear of the hamstring, not a run of the mill hamstring injury. Still better than destroying a knee. I hope.

[rbaloha1]

Kampman was borderline elite for 2+ years. Hawk was never anywhere near that level at LB.


The issue was AK was a bad fit for olb but a great fit for a 4-3 de. Packers got nothing for Kampman.

Prior to the Bishop injury a Hawk trade maybe yields a low round draft pick. Now we are forced to keep an overpaid first base coach.

[Patler]

Ketchman doesn't grasp, or has been told it doesn't matter, that Smith does not practice at Hawk's spot. Several people I have read said Walden looked like he had regained his pass rush after loosing it after his arrest last year. He might be harder to shake than people assume. So'oto, at this point, seems so far to annually beat up on the bottom of the roster guys but struggle versus better competition (like he has faced in camp).

I read this morning that they had practiced some subpackages that included Bishop and Smith on the field at the same time.

[pbmax]

I read this morning that they had practiced some subpackages that included Bishop and Smith on the field at the same time.

Any idea what package? Was it nickel? Would seem to be the natural place to start.

M3 will talk after practice today, so we might get some updates on Bishop and House. House Tweeted that he is looking at his MRI this morning with the Doctor.

[ND72]

This whole thing still amuses me. This week a reporter from the state journal asked Winston Moss if Smith has worked into a starting role, his response was "Well smith is Bishops back up, so do you want me to pull bishop off the field?" the reporters next line was then "Coach moss stays non-committal on status of AJ Hawk".... No i dont have a link cause i cant find it now, but The entire notion of this is media driven. And now, it's less of a subject, because Hawk and Smith are your starters. Francois is maybe a career backup, and manning who knows. A lot of wasted time and energy to discuss something that simply won't happen.

[Patler]

This whole thing still amuses me. This week a reporter from the state journal asked Winston Moss if Smith has worked into a starting role, his response was "Well smith is Bishops back up, so do you want me to pull bishop off the field?" the reporters next line was then "Coach moss stays non-committal on status of AJ Hawk".... No i dont have a link cause i cant find it now, but The entire notion of this is media driven. And now, it's less of a subject, because Hawk and Smith are your starters. Francois is maybe a career backup, and manning who knows. A lot of wasted time and energy to discuss something that simply won't happen.

The only thing that made me take notice was when the comment was made by Vic Ketchman on the pregame show. He's not the "typical" media, since he is a paid Packer employee. Somewhat (at least a little compared to the run-of-the-mill reporter) closer to a coach having said it, because I wouldn't expect him to raise roster controversy needlessly.