McGinn- Packers DL Failing to Step Up

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/no-rush-but-time-is-running-out-lu6hmk1-166664096.html

[Bretsky]

Paragraph #2 dedicated to pb

Training camp is 3½ weeks old and none of the above six players has looked anything close to the second coming of Cullen Jenkins as an inside pass rusher.

[rbaloha1]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/no-rush-but-time-is-running-out-lu6hmk1-166664096.html

Merriman to the rescue! LOL:whist:

[mission]

He is a linebacker... ?

[rbaloha1]

He is a linebacker... ?

Oh really? Where are the ditto heads to correct me?

[Lurker64]

I really suspect the defense is going to be a work in progress this year. There really aren't any quick fixes in the NFL. You can't sign or draft a player that will turn a bad unit into a good one. We just need to hope that the defense puts it all together in time for the playoffs. The offense should be good enough to get this team to the playoffs (barring injury) regardless of how bad the defense plays.

[mission]

I really suspect the defense is going to be a work in progress this year. There really aren't any quick fixes in the NFL. You can't sign or draft a player that will turn a bad unit into a good one. We just need to hope that the defense puts it all together in time for the playoffs. The offense should be good enough to get this team to the playoffs (barring injury) regardless of how bad the defense plays.

Because of the youth, I'm expecting this to be a year where we start out sluggish and get a few sky is falling theories, only to see it come together for a strong playoff run. Opposite of last year.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I really suspect the defense is going to be a work in progress this year. There really aren't any quick fixes in the NFL. You can't sign or draft a player that will turn a bad unit into a good one. We just need to hope that the defense puts it all together in time for the playoffs. The offense should be good enough to get this team to the playoffs (barring injury) regardless of how bad the defense plays.

Not if the defense plays as bad as it did last season and has less turnovers. The offense last year was record setting and the defense produced an insane amount of turnovers. Those two things together produced 15 wins. Lets hope the D still produces a lot of turnovers otherwise games against the Bears, Lions, 49ers, Saints, Gaints, and Texans could be very high scoring.

[RashanGary]

Well, there's the worst case scenario. Nobody pans out.

McGinn's thesis statement to that article was that nobody looks remotely close the the 2nd coming of Cullen Jenkins. In that few hundred word article, he did mix in an 11 or 12 word sentence saying there is no telling how the players might pan out, but it read more like a "yeah, and pigs could fly" line than anything else.

McGinn brings some good stuff to the table. He seems to always want to drive a point home, but sometimes it's far too early to draw any conclusions.


I do think there is a lot of evidence that the Packers defense is going to be a work in progress. They are relying on a lot of young guys, but it's not like they're relying on any one guy. They have about 10 young guys between the DL, secondary and Perry, any of which have a chance to be good players. Last I checked, Thompson has a high success rate at finding players.

It woudln't be a very interesting article if all he said was, "we'll have to see how the season goes." He took what's happened to date, projected it out as if it wasn't going to change, phrased it in a very interesting and convincing style and now we'll all discuss it for the next couple weeks. That's his bag, baby. He's interesting and willing to take a stance.

We'll see how it goes. Every year the sky is falling about something. More often than not, the Packers don't win the super bowl, so at the end of the year, the sky did fall for one reason or another.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Packers pass rush is improved, as well as the secondary. I think it will show up more and more as the season goes on. For these first few weeks, I'm with McGinn. The young defense has to grow together, but they have talent and good coaching. Whether they're world beaters or not, I do think they'll grow as a unit and be better at the end of the year this year than they were last year.

[Patler]

In fairness to this years rookies, Cullen Jenkins didn't play like Cullen Jenkins his first year either. In fact, he didn't play at all because he sat out the year after being waived by the Packers.

[RashanGary]

I'm a fan, sitting on the couch behind my computer, so take this for what it's worth. . . . .

I do think Capers does his DL a disservice by not giving them more opportunities to shoot up field. Raji has said it, those other DT's with the sacks, they don't have nearly the responsibility the Packers DL have. The 2-4 defense is a very small defense. 4-2 defenses have two DTs and two legitimate DEs. The Packers put a lot of pressure on those two inside guys to limit the wide openings in the pocket.

I still think you can let them go up field more often, especially if you have a guy like Raji who can really wreak havoc when he's let loose. Worthy too. He can shoot a gap. Hey, if your DL are better at getting pressure than your idiot inside LB's, why not have one of the inside guys play more of a spy/pocket contain role instead of blitzing. Sure, you're taking him out of coverage, just like you would on a blitz, but let Raji pin his ears back. I like Raji's chances of splitting the G/C gap better than I do Hawks chances of doing anything on one of those inside bltizes.

[denverYooper]

I really suspect the defense is going to be a work in progress this year. There really aren't any quick fixes in the NFL. You can't sign or draft a player that will turn a bad unit into a good one. We just need to hope that the defense puts it all together in time for the playoffs. The offense should be good enough to get this team to the playoffs (barring injury) regardless of how bad the defense plays.

This.

It's silly to think that the DL would suddenly look like the Giants by adding a couple of draft picks and some bargain vets. I think Worthy and Daniels are probably a year out from being truly effective, although one of them could start clicking by year's end. And if any of these guys keeps Raji fresh for the stretch and playoffs, the line will look better for it.

[mraynrand]

I still think you can let them go up field more often, especially if you have a guy like Raji who can really wreak havoc when he's let loose. Worthy too. He can shoot a gap. Hey, if your DL are better at getting pressure than your idiot inside LB's, why not have one of the inside guys play more of a spy/pocket contain role instead of blitzing. Sure, you're taking him out of coverage, just like you would on a blitz, but let Raji pin his ears back. I like Raji's chances of splitting the G/C gap better than I do Hawks chances of doing anything on one of those inside bltizes.

I agree with this, with the qualification that I don't exactly understand what you leave open in this scheme. If it's the underneath passing routes, then maybe you go with Francois more than Hawk for example. But it seems manageable. I also wonder about the temperament of Raji - I think he operates on a pretty emotional level. If he's playing mostly two-gap, I bet that knocks the spirit right out of him. Turn him loose! (I say that with the qualification that I don't know for certain what percentage of times he's been allowed to rush upfield; it's possible he's been set free - last year - and just didn't perform all that well...)

[pbmax]

I'm a fan, sitting on the couch behind my computer, so take this for what it's worth. . . . .

I do think Capers does his DL a disservice by not giving them more opportunities to shoot up field. Raji has said it, those other DT's with the sacks, they don't have nearly the responsibility the Packers DL have. The 2-4 defense is a very small defense. 4-2 defenses have two DTs and two legitimate DEs. The Packers put a lot of pressure on those two inside guys to limit the wide openings in the pocket.

I still think you can let them go up field more often, especially if you have a guy like Raji who can really wreak havoc when he's let loose. Worthy too. He can shoot a gap. Hey, if your DL are better at getting pressure than your idiot inside LB's, why not have one of the inside guys play more of a spy/pocket contain role instead of blitzing. Sure, you're taking him out of coverage, just like you would on a blitz, but let Raji pin his ears back. I like Raji's chances of splitting the G/C gap better than I do Hawks chances of doing anything on one of those inside bltizes.

Problem is that those charging pass rushers/lineman leave gaps and you need LBs and safeties who can fill those gaps when you get a run, draw or shovel pass. I am not sure those players are on the Packers roster.

One thing that is odd about the Packer D is that if you two gap the D line you usually go smaller, speedier and deadlier elsewhere. But the Packers speed in the middle of the field is pretty average (except maybe Burnett) and their tackling is horrible. Sometimes it seems like a bad fit.

In other words, I still don't think this is all Cullen Jenkins fault :)

[Pugger]

How can anyone tell how good or bad this defense is gonna be after the starters have played snippets in 2 preseason games? Capers in notorious for having his defenders play vanilla in the preseason too. I think we need to see more evidence before making any declaration here. The defense will be better if only because they couldn't have played much worse last year besides getting turnovers.

[Smidgeon]

How can anyone tell how good or bad this defense is gonna be after the starters have played snippets in 2 preseason games? Capers in notorious for having his defenders play vanilla in the preseason too. I think we need to see more evidence before making any declaration here. The defense will be better if only because they couldn't have played much worse last year besides getting turnovers.

Capers is also notorious for his defenses dropping off in effectiveness after his first year as DC. In GB, that happened to be their best year, but it's a trend. I hope the D gets back to good though and stays there.

[rbaloha1]

In fairness to this years rookies, Cullen Jenkins didn't play like Cullen Jenkins his first year either. In fact, he didn't play at all because he sat out the year after being waived by the Packers.

True like dat.

[wist43]

I like how the young guys have looked - even if the early results look shaky.

I absolutely do not trust Capers to pull it al together though. He's as likely to go to a 1-10 half dollar defense as he is to put 3-4 DL on the field at the same time.

[pbmax]

Capers is also notorious for his defenses dropping off in effectiveness after his first year as DC. In GB, that happened to be their best year, but it's a trend. I hope the D gets back to good though and stays there.

They had their best year in his second year as DC with Green Bay. Which had been his worst year in other towns. A change in scheme is going to result in weird first year results as no one has film on that team playing that defense.

[Smidgeon]

They had their best year in his second year as DC with Green Bay. Which had been his worst year in other towns. A change in scheme is going to result in weird first year results as no one has film on that team playing that defense.

So was year 3 DC's year 2 at other stops? Has he ever had a defense that's perpetually in the Top 10?

[Brandon494]

I'd wait until the first few regular games when we aren't running vanilla defensive schemes. I do believe the talent is a lot better then what he had last season and I see us being a top 15 defensive team if not top 10. My only concern really is how much of an impact Perry will have this season. I can't give up my source up but word is Coach Green is having a hard time motivating this kid and that Moses is having a better camp. He's not a bad kid at all just that hes very quiet, hopefully Green will find a way to light a fire under his ass.

[pbmax]

So was year 3 DC's year 2 at other stops? Has he ever had a defense that's perpetually in the Top 10?

Don't remember, but Dom has been in charge of some rebuilding projects so he was in Miami and Jacksonville when they blew up the structure and put up a new building. Tough to judge the long term success of a plan that changes after 2 years.

Harv did some yeoman's work on this theory either when he was hired or preseason of Year 2, but I don't see the thread.

I think his longest turn of success was Pitt followed by Carolina, but even Carolina got blown up due to the cap and FA.

[mmmdk]

How can anyone tell how good or bad this defense is gonna be after the starters have played snippets in 2 preseason games? Capers in notorious for having his defenders play vanilla in the preseason too. I think we need to see more evidence before making any declaration here. The defense will be better if only because they couldn't have played much worse last year besides getting turnovers.

...but it's still a lot of vanilla!

[rbaloha1]

Unsure which backups step-up.

Wynn and Wilson imo are scrubs. Daniels and Muir could fulfill backup roles. Hargrove and Merling are just guys. Worthy is the wildcard -- needs to lower pad level -- but man the dude is gifted.

[RashanGary]

Unsure which backups step-up.

Wynn and Wilson imo are scrubs. Daniels and Muir could fulfill backup roles. Hargrove and Merling are just guys. Worthy is the wildcard -- needs to lower pad level -- but man the dude is gifted.

I'm with ya here. I'm not a Wilson fan, not at all. I am a bit of a Neal fan though. I could see him coming back and being a decent rotational player for us. He's stout and has some bull rush in him.

[Pugger]

It is hard to tell how Hargrove is because he doesn't seem to be getting a lot of playing time.

[denverYooper]

Unsure which backups step-up.

Wynn and Wilson imo are scrubs. Daniels and Muir could fulfill backup roles. Hargrove and Merling are just guys. Worthy is the wildcard -- needs to lower pad level -- but man the dude is gifted.

Agree that he played high on occasion but I don't think it hurts him as much because everything about his game is so fast. Those guys on the Cincy OL were having a hard time getting a hold of him. I imagine it's fun to watch him and Bulaga go 1-1 to see who can outdraw the other because they both have some crazy handspeed. If he can develop a little hump move, that might be all he needs to toss some guys around.

I think the staff likes him too, because he was pulled after the first half with their main guys (I don't recall seeing him in the second half, anyway).

[smuggler]

The DL looked okay against the Bengals, who have a good OL. Clay/Raji split a sack.

[run pMc]

Talent on D -- not just DL -- is improved.
Pass rush will be better with Perry, Moses, Daniels, Worthy.
I expect a slow start to the season but a strong finish.

It's early...is he ringing alarm bells or just being a Debbie Downer?

[denverYooper]

Talent on D -- not just DL -- is improved.
Pass rush will be better with Perry, Moses, Daniels, Worthy.
I expect a slow start to the season but a strong finish.

It's early...is he ringing alarm bells or just being a Debbie Downer?

I'd say he's trying to get clicks.

[Smidgeon]

Don't remember, but Dom has been in charge of some rebuilding projects so he was in Miami and Jacksonville when they blew up the structure and put up a new building. Tough to judge the long term success of a plan that changes after 2 years.

Harv did some yeoman's work on this theory either when he was hired or preseason of Year 2, but I don't see the thread.

I think his longest turn of success was Pitt followed by Carolina, but even Carolina got blown up due to the cap and FA.

Okay. So hopefully the stability of talent from TT and the coaching of Trgo, Whitt, Perry, and Greene keep the defense good. My personal jury is still out on Moss.