An Unusual 3rd & Long Defensive Package

[The Shadow]

On a 3rd & long situation, here's a defensive package I would like to see Capers experiment with:
Mike Daniels & Nick Perry rushing from the inside.
Clay & Dezman Moses on the outside.
Francois as a Mike LB.
The 6 DBs? Woodson in the slot, Tramon & House on the outide, Hayward, Burnett & Jennings.

[mission]

I like the concept... hope Dom is reading. :lol:

[pbmax]

On a 3rd & long situation, here's a defensive package I would like to see Capers experiment with:
Mike Daniels & Nick Perry rushing from the inside.
Clay & Dezman Moses on the outside.
Francois as a Mike LB.
The 6 DBs? Woodson in the slot, Tramon & House on the outide, Hayward, Burnett & Jennings.

How about Raji/Worthy at Nose, Perry and Mathews at OLB, 1 LB and seven DB? Because I think I saw that twice. Although, on LB and not the seventh DB could have been off the screen.

Stunning thing was unlike last year, they got enough into the pocket to cause the QB to move.

[RashanGary]

I'm fine with an unbalanced line with Worthy and Raji playing between the center and guards, Perry lining up as a 7-tech DE, Matthews and Moses lining up as OLBs, Bush as ILB with whoever your top 5 DB's are.

[The Shadow]

When the run is not really likely - and the quickness of the mentioned players makes the occasional draw not likely to succeed - I see no reason not to try a combo of really disprutive players coming after the quarterback. Perry seems already very good at the bull rush; Daniels seems quick & penetrating, and Clay & Moses seem relentless. Get that quarterback worried & quick to go to happy feet!

[pbmax]

When the run is not really likely - and the quickness of the mentioned players makes the occasional draw not likely to succeed - I see no reason not to try a combo of really disprutive players coming after the quarterback. Perry seems already very good at the bull rush; Daniels seems quick & penetrating, and Clay & Moses seem relentless. Get that quarterback worried & quick to go to happy feet!

Its an interesting question and the point you make is solid. I think most D coordinators who employ zones find it easier to drop many into coverage and simply force an easy short throw and if tackling isn't an issue, get the ball back.

What you propose offers a similar return with the hope of additional positive yardage for the defense. Yet by committing one more to rush, there is a coverage hole where there might not otherwise be. And if the rushers are not disciplined (and it looks like you are going for speed rush there), there is a possible QB escape. So you risk more to gain yardage. I could see using such an approach when you need field position desperately or the QB (mobility) or receivers (speed/deep routes) are unlikely to be able to defeat it.

Also not sure about Perry inside on the rush.

[The Shadow]

Its an interesting question and the point you make is solid. I think most D coordinators who employ zones find it easier to drop many into coverage and simply force an easy short throw and if tackling isn't an issue, get the ball back.

What you propose offers a similar return with the hope of additional positive yardage for the defense. Yet by committing one more to rush, there is a coverage hole where there might not otherwise be. And if the rushers are not disciplined (and it looks like you are going for speed rush there), there is a possible QB escape. So you risk more to gain yardage. I could see using such an approach when you need field position desperately or the QB (mobility) or receivers (speed/deep routes) are unlikely to be able to defeat it.

Also not sure about Perry inside on the rush.

I think Perry's best asset right now is the bull rush, and he might be pretty effective at pushing the interior pocket so a qb could not step up.

[wist43]

So you want to play a defense that has the largest defender on the field at 280 lbs?? What happens when the offense forms a circle around the QB, and they decide to just walk him down the field and into the end zone; swatting would-be defenders away like annoying gnats?? Defensive backs on their hands and knees trying to reach inside the circle and untie the QB's shoelaces in the hope that he will trip??

I hate having only 2 DL on the field - and I would never send only 3... Dom loves to play patsy defense though, so I'm sure your idea is already in the playbook.

Might as well take all the DL off the field and play all 11 in coverage. Anyone weighing more that 180 lbs is not welcome.

[George Cumby]

So you want to play a defense that has the largest defender on the field at 280 lbs?? What happens when the offense forms a circle around the QB, and they decide to just walk him down the field and into the end zone; swatting would-be defenders away like annoying gnats?? Defensive backs on their hands and knees trying to reach inside the circle and untie the QB's shoelaces in the hope that he will trip??

I hate having only 2 DL on the field - and I would never send only 3... Dom loves to play patsy defense though, so I'm sure your idea is already in the playbook.

Might as well take all the DL off the field and play all 11 in coverage. Anyone weighing more that 180 lbs is not welcome.

IIRC Dom called those 2 DL defenses during their SB run to good effect.

Or am I mistaken?

[mraynrand]

Stunning thing was unlike last year, they got enough into the pocket to cause the QB to move.

That's the key, right? That's why I cringe when they rush 3, even when the other team has third and Dickey. You have to bring another guy from another angle to at least force the QB to move his feet, break concentration on what's downfield. Given enough time, even lousy receivers can get open, especially with Bush in coverage. gotta have that pressure...

[mraynrand]

Defensive backs on their hands and knees trying to reach inside the circle and untie the QB's shoelaces in the hope that he will trip??

EDS plays on offense, but he can get those shoes untied in an instant

[wist43]

IIRC Dom called those 2 DL defenses during their SB run to good effect.

Or am I mistaken?

Did we not set the all-time NFL record for most putrid defense last year - playing a 2 man line 138% of the time?? Or am I mistaken?? Good grief, we gave up an avg of 411 yds/game last year.

I understand that most Packer fans consider pressuring the QB to be impolite, but I'm old school - to me, defense is about pressure first, coverage second. The NY Giants secondary is average at best - but they put up one hellish pass rush. Page 1 of my playbook is send all 11, and make compromises to dropping into coverage from there.

Why did we even bother drafting any front seven guys this year, if all Dom is going to do is put 2 smallish DL on the field with 9 merengue dancers??

[George Cumby]

Did we not set the all-time NFL record for most putrid defense last year - playing a 2 man line 138% of the time?? Or am I mistaken?? Good grief, we gave up an avg of 411 yds/game last year.

I understand that most Packer fans consider pressuring the QB to be impolite, but I'm old school - to me, defense is about pressure first, coverage second. The NY Giants secondary is average at best - but they put up one hellish pass rush. Page 1 of my playbook is send all 11, and make compromises to dropping into coverage from there.

Why did we even bother drafting any front seven guys this year, if all Dom is going to do is put 2 smallish DL on the field with 9 merengue dancers??

I, for one, do not dispute the wretched display of defense last year.

However, I recall the SB year being a year of solid, intimidating defense which involved multiple fronts including the one and two man fronts which still allowed pressure.

I don't think any realistic fan would consider making the opposing QB uncomfortable to be "impolite". Personally, I would like to see every opponents QB leave the field in tears.

[LegandofthePack15]

On a 3rd & long situation, here's a defensive package I would like to see Capers experiment with:
Mike Daniels & Nick Perry rushing from the inside.
Clay & Dezman Moses on the outside.
Francois as a Mike LB.
The 6 DBs? Woodson in the slot, Tramon & House on the outide, Hayward, Burnett & Jennings.

Basically, you are suggesting a 1 (DL) - 4(LBs) - 6 (DBs) defense. Capers has used such package before.

Its called:

http://storiesbehindthescreen.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/psycho-trailer-title-screen.jpg

[pbmax]

That's the key, right? That's why I cringe when they rush 3, even when the other team has third and Dickey. You have to bring another guy from another angle to at least force the QB to move his feet, break concentration on what's downfield. Given enough time, even lousy receivers can get open, especially with Bush in coverage. gotta have that pressure...

Its a weird mix. You would think the QB would just stand back there and wait. And if its Rothliesberger or Farve, they do. But most other QBs start to float to maintain the pocket. Then some O lineman doesn't notice and blocks or leverages the wrong way on a pass rusher and suddenly there is pressure even if its easy to escape. It doesn't take much time for most pockets to collapse even when they shouldn't. But you have to have three people who will not give up and try to jump up and bat the pass down.

The Steelers of yore (Cowher era) did that and so did the Packers of 2010. Most QBs don't want to run so wist's fear of the QB amoeba play is poorly founded with some easy to guess exceptions.

But the Packers of 2009 and 2011 never got near or suffered loose coverage that defeated the purpose of playing deep zone coverage. You do not need to get home every time on this alignment, but the QB needs to think you might. And the underneath must be so wide open that its too enticing to avoid.

Communication is key because of the O can just run crossing routes or scrape defenders, the path to a first down is wide open. So you need play side assistance. With the Packers CBs focus on man coverage, this sometimes is an adventure and they get there too late, take a bad angle or make a terrible tackle attempt.

[The Shadow]

Did we not set the all-time NFL record for most putrid defense last year - playing a 2 man line 138% of the time?? Or am I mistaken?? Good grief, we gave up an avg of 411 yds/game last year.

I understand that most Packer fans consider pressuring the QB to be impolite, but I'm old school - to me, defense is about pressure first, coverage second. The NY Giants secondary is average at best - but they put up one hellish pass rush. Page 1 of my playbook is send all 11, and make compromises to dropping into coverage from there.

Why did we even bother drafting any front seven guys this year, if all Dom is going to do is put 2 smallish DL on the field with 9 merengue dancers??

I think pressure is actually the POINT : penetrating, slippery & quick guys versus fat, slow guys that just get locked on to offensive linemen too easily.

[wist43]

I think pressure is actually the POINT : penetrating, slippery & quick guys versus fat, slow guys that just get locked on to offensive linemen too easily.

I wanted to go to a 3-4 years ago b/c of the flexibility it offers in terms of presenting multiple fronts and disguised blitzes; but Dom doesn't play a 3-4, he plays - who the fuck knows what he plays, lol... it's a surefire mess though - as witnessed by giving up 6,585 yards!!!!

Everyone talks about how awesome our offense was last year - and they were awesome; but if they were awesome in gaining 6,482 yards - how putrid would that make our defense that gave up 6,585 yards??

The 2-whatever is fooling no one - I can sit on my couch and know who is coming. Beyond that, he burned Raji out last year, and effectively sapped him of his effectiveness as an inside rusher.

We need beef on the field to get push up the middle, in combination with an outside threat, mixed in with the blitz. We need to keep a good rotation going with all of those DL to keep them fresh, and taylor game plans to attack the weaknesses of the OL we're facing.

If we're facing an OL of ballarina's... push the pocket with Raji and Worthy; if we're facing an interior OL that is made up of behemoths who are susceptible to speed and quickness?? enter any combination of Daniels, Raji, Wilson, and Worthy - all the while pressing the edge with Perry on one side, and Matthews/blitzing on the other side.

It's time to dump the gimmicky 2-whatever, and get back to playing some tough, aggressive 3-4 defense.

[pbmax]

wist, there is no arguing with your general points, but the details leave something to be desired.

You say Raji was worn out last year, despite playing fewer percentage of the overall snaps than the Super Bowl year. You then suggest to play more 3 man D line, meaning he will be out there more often.

You want a rotation, but you had one last year. With only 6 D line, there is only so much rotation to be had with a 3 man line.

You want 3 D line and Perry and Matthews pressuring. That a 5 man line on the pocket, meaning you will be dropping someone into coverage. Who do you want to drop into coverage? Matthews, the best rusher? Perry, the worst OLB coverage guy? 3 D lineman on a passing down means one of the three best pass rushers will be in coverage unless its a blitz.

I do agree that a static 2-4-5 means there is no guessing who is coming because its a four man line. But that is also the package that Capers blitzes out of the most. Meaning it is not as predictable as it would look on a chalkboard.

Lastly, no serious analysis of football performance looks at total yardage. The Packers were far better on a points per game basis last year than the yardage would indicate. It wasn't good enough, but it wasn't league worst nor did it set a record.

[wist43]

wist, there is no arguing with your general points, but the details leave something to be desired.

You say Raji was worn out last year, despite playing fewer percentage of the overall snaps than the Super Bowl year. You then suggest to play more 3 man D line, meaning he will be out there more often.

You sound like a politician - spend more, but in terms of percentage it's less?? I distinctly remember reading an article in which both Raji and Capers both said he wore down, both b/c of the amount of snaps he took; and specifically the number of snaps he took on the nose.

Raji's most natural position is 3-technique; on the nose, he's constantly having to deal with double teams, he wears down, and his burst and quickness are wasted. I put most of the blame for that on Capers, some on Thompson for not providing enough DL.


You want a rotation, but you had one last year. With only 6 D line, there is only so much rotation to be had with a 3 man line.

I wouldn't necessarily mind keeping only 6 DL if we were LB rich and explosive on that level; but outside of Matthews and Raji, our front seven was a dead unit - as witnessed by our pathetic sack and pressure numbers. We simply didn't have any firepower anywhere in the front seven.


You want 3 D line and Perry and Matthews pressuring. That a 5 man line on the pocket, meaning you will be dropping someone into coverage. Who do you want to drop into coverage? Matthews, the best rusher? Perry, the worst OLB coverage guy? 3 D lineman on a passing down means one of the three best pass rushers will be in coverage unless its a blitz.

It's all about confusion and disguising who you're bringing... of course dropping Matthews or Perry is a viable call. Drop Matthews to cover the flat while bringing a corner or a safety?? Lining up static and bringing the same rush will get picked up every time.


I do agree that a static 2-4-5 means there is no guessing who is coming because its a four man line. But that is also the package that Capers blitzes out of the most. Meaning it is not as predictable as it would look on a chalkboard.

We're simply not generating pressure out of 2 man fronts - we have more talent up front this year thanks to a good draft, so maybe the results will improve, but the fact is we generated only 6 sacks in the last 7 games - including playoffs.

I'll repeat that most unpleasant stat - 6 stinking sacks, in the last 7 games, including playoffs!!!


Lastly, no serious analysis of football performance looks at total yardage. The Packers were far better on a points per game basis last year than the yardage would indicate. It wasn't good enough, but it wasn't league worst nor did it set a record.

I don't usually put too much stock in yardage numbers - but 6,585 yards is both ridiculous and embarrassing; and we did surrender more passing yds than any team in league history - at least according to Pro Football Weekly.

Of course some of that is a function of teams playing catch up to our offense; but there's no hiding the pathetic sack and pressure numbers - which of course lead to a comfortable pocket for opposing QB's, which of course leads to all the yards and eventually points. The only thing that saved us from setting league worst records in just about every defensive passing catagory were the INT's.

[pbmax]

If a rate calculation puts you off discussing the defense, its going to be hard to debate this point. But the defense has only a partial ability to influence how many plays it faces. Even a great defense, forcing a 3 and out every time, stands to face an increased number when it plays with a quick strike high scoring offense. Unless that offense commands time of possession in an extraordinary fashion. In fact, the Packers already lead the league in the most effective way to face less snaps, turnovers, and still faced a huge number of plays.

So to use Raji less, to put into place a system by which his snaps stand the largest chance of being reduced, he has to play a fewer percentage of plays.

Your proposal to use more 3 man lines in is direct opposition to your maxim that he must be kept fresh.

I tend to agree he is a more natural 3 tech, and he plays a substantial amount of snaps there in that Eagle Oakie. But he plays very few snaps at 5 tech. Since Capers seems to feel he is better at 0/1 tech or 3 tech than 5 tech, he has moved Pickett to 5tech and nothing that has come out of camp suggests that will change.

A rotation would help, but they always try to rotate. A more effective rotation (better players) would help more. But your 3 man line means more D line snaps for all lineman, rotation or not.

As it stands, I suspect they will use a small percentage more base due to McCarthy's earlier statement this year and the problem they had versus the run. But I also expect that the 2 man lines will be better because the drafted players and Muir (maybe Neal) will be effective enough to get Raji off the field. I hope, anyway.

[wist43]

I loved the draft - and I want those guys on the field in a steady rotation, thereby keeping everyone fresh.

As for Raji, my main complaint is not against Raji, it is against how Capers is using both him and Pickett. They're being used exactly opposite of how each should be used. Pickett is good just about anywhere in the base, but Raji needs to be used as a 5-technique in base, and as an inside rusher on passing downs. Dom apparently has no intention of doing that. It's obvious Raji doesn't take on double teams well, and it's obvious he wears down playing the nose - yet Dom seems to have blinders on to those facts.

Raji is being wasted by the way Dom is playing him, and it's hurting the defense. I would suspect that eventually Raji's attitude will be affected - wouldn't blame him in the least if he's just looking to play out his contract and get out of Green Bay.

Again, 6 sacks in the last 7 games - including playoffs. There's no defense for that fact.

[pbmax]

I would agree Pickett is better at Nose, but disagree that Raji is better at 5 tech. He looked very out of place there is 2009.