Receiving yards leaders of 2011 (40 yard dash times)

[RashanGary]

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/


Marshall 4.57
Nelson 4.51
White 4.45
Graham 4.53
Gronk 4.68
S Smith 4.41
CJ 4.35
Fitz 4.63
Cruz 4.47
Wlker 4.61


Thought it was interesting because our guy, Boykin was athletic in every way, productive in every way, but runs in the 4.65 range. Both Welker and Fitz run similar times. Only two of these top receivers are blazers: CJ and Smith.

40 times seem overrated for WR's. Rice was a 4.6 guy. There are rumors of Owens running 4.5's recently, but coming out of college he was a 4.6 guy. After rice, he's the second leading NFL receiver of all time.

[RashanGary]

Of the receivers:

Average height 6'1.5"
Average weight 210
Average 40 yard dash 4.50

Not exactly your who's who of height/weight/speed

Some guys have size like Marshall, Gronk, Fitz

Some guys have speed like S Smith, Roddy White, Cruz

Some guys have size/speed like Nelson

Two guys are freaks: Graham, CJ

One guy has nothing: Welker


All of these guys have excellent hands, catch the ball well in traffic, have great chemistry with their QB's (Boykin seems to have all of the "skill" qualities). . . . .

Skill seems to outweight height, weight and speed by a large margin.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, you just answered your own question. Most great receivers bring an elite skill to the table. Plus, they have innate ball skills. I like what I see from Boykin, but it's a bit of a stretch to compare him to these guys at this point.

You are underselling Welker. Much like Greg Jennings, his quickness, route running, and hands are elite. Greg has superior deep speed, and that's why I'd take him over Welker, but to say he has nothing is harsh.

[Lurker64]

I actually think that Boykin plays a lot closer to the 4.57 he timed at his pro day, than the 4.72 he timed at the combine (guys run poorly at the combine for all sorts of forgivable reasons that are not recorded). He actually appears to play quite a bit faster than the supposedly 4.53 Tori Gurley (who I swear is the second coming of Ruvell Martin.)

At the very least, Boykin is a lot savvier a route runner than the other fringe WRs, has great hands, and for a guy his size has above average RAC ability, which is a premium in Mac's offense (Gurley, on the other hand, has next to no RAC ability and is thus a much better fit in Mn, where he ended up.)

Boykin may end up a very good player, but I doubt he'll play much at all this year and he's not really even assured to make the roster next year (since Ted may well draft a WR in that 2-3 range in which he takes WRs).

[smuggler]

All of these guys have excellent hands, catch the ball well in traffic, have great chemistry with their QB's

Except Roddy White, who has pretty bad hands.

[Brandon494]

Except Roddy White, who has pretty bad hands.

Is that sarcasm? Pretty sure Roddy White is a beast.

[Pugger]

Well, you just answered your own question. Most great receivers bring an elite skill to the table. Plus, they have innate ball skills. I like what I see from Boykin, but it's a bit of a stretch to compare him to these guys at this point.

You are underselling Welker. Much like Greg Jennings, his quickness, route running, and hands are elite. Greg has superior deep speed, and that's why I'd take him over Welker, but to say he has nothing is harsh.

What is Greg's 40 time?

[pbmax]

Its a set of skills, but each of these guys play different roles. So its a great skill set combined with athletic measurables that fit the role they play.

You put Gronk out wide every time with a CB and safety, those numbers are coming down.

Run Nelson in the slot, his numbers are coming down.

[King Friday]

There are 2 main physical attributes that determine the success of a receiver to me.

1. Hands...you are worthless if you can't catch the ball.
2. Quickness...40 yd time isn't that useful to me. How quickly they get out of a cut is vastly more important.

[RashanGary]

There are 2 main physical attributes that determine the success of a receiver to me.

1. Hands...you are worthless if you can't catch the ball.
2. Quickness...40 yd time isn't that useful to me. How quickly they get out of a cut is vastly more important.

Route running is a big deal too. Defenses don't play the same defense down in and down out. Each route, there can be subtle adjustments that make the difference between being open and not being open.

You can ease up to make the window open longer, you can speed up to get to the second window faster, you can get better body positioning, etc. . . . . All of it depends on what defense you're playing and if you're on the same page as the QB with how he wants to attack it. The other part of route running, if defenses can key in on how you run certain routes, they can jump routes or at least have great coverage on you more often than not. Another part of a receivers game I'd put into route running is being able to get off the line. If a receiver can be stifled at the line, the timing of the play is thrown off as soon as it starts.

[RashanGary]

If a receiver has this/does this, odds are he's a good player.

Runs good routes/is on the same page with the QB
Has some combination of: size/quickness/speed that helps him get open
Catches the ball

[RashanGary]

There are so many other things that go into it. . . .

Does a coach use the players strengths
Does the player take coaching well
Is the player hard working
Does the player work well with the team
Is he durable
There's an "it" factor that you don't seem to be able to measure. Fitzgerald is 6'3", but he's not huge. He's slow, he's not incredibly quick. . . He does run great routes, but he also has a knack for just finding a way to get the ball. Acrobatic catches, balance, coordination. . . . . Just some strange form of athletic/spacial intuition that you have or don't.

Ultimately, it comes down to producing in some way/some form. The college game and NFL game are different, but once you get a guy in. . . . I've heard Ted Thompson say a couple things about it. Guys who produce consistently, and young guys who get better every day. That's why he values those 30 extra guys and gives them a real chance to make the team. Some guys are better NFL players than they were college. You just never know how they're going to fit in until you give them a chance. The Packers do that. They give young, undrafted players the same chance they give a 2nd round pick, and every year we get one or two players who make a difference on our team because of it.

[rbaloha1]

40 yard times for a wr is almost meaningless. Where are speed demonsAshley Lelie and Donte Stallworth today? The days of Bob Hayes and Cliff Branch are long gone.

DBs have almost the same skill set (absent the hands) as today's receivers.

Running routes with a burst, adjusting to the ball in the air, downfield blockin and reading defenses are far more important. Boykin appears to possess these skills and attributes?

Again -- is Boykin a faster Antonio Freeman?

[pbmax]

...

Again -- is Boykin a faster Antonio Freeman?

How can it matter? 40 yd times for a WR are meaningless.

[rbaloha1]

How can it matter? 40 yd times for a WR are meaningless.

Just asking since a knock on Freeman was 40 time and being a body catcher.

Both are from the same school and have been mentioned for not having great 40 yard times. Boykin is certainly not a body catcher.

BTW stated earlier 40 time is almost meaningless.

[Lurker64]

40 yard times for a wr is almost meaningless. Where are speed demonsAshley Lelie and Donte Stallworth today? The days of Bob Hayes and Cliff Branch are long gone.

40 times for WRs are meaningful, but they are not the be-all-and-end-all like some people (like the late Al Davis towards the end) think it is. There are other things that matter for a guy's ability to catch passes as a wide receiver: Hands, Wingspan, Burst, Change of Direction skills, physicality, ball skills, route-running savvy, body control, etc.

Jerry Rice is widely perceived as the greatest receiver of the modern era, and he was never that fast, but made up for it in other ways. However, the consensus second best receiver of the modern era, Randy Moss, is a player whose game was predicated on his ability to beat more or less anybody deep (when he wanted to). The consensus best receiver now is Calvin Johnson, and that guy's game is based mostly on the fact that he is ridiculously fast (4.35) for a man as big as he is (6050 239).

I mean, hell, Jordy Nelson's game is largely predicated on his physicality and his long speed (his short area quickness is not great, but he's got an extra gear.)

You don't need to be fast to be good, but you always want to be fast, since it's better.

If you had a receiver who ran a 5.3 he won't be playing in this league no matter how good he is at the other stuff. He could be covered by a couple of the league's better nose tackles!

[smuggler]

Is that sarcasm? Pretty sure Roddy White is a beast.

He had 15 drops last year (13% of catchable passes), leading the league. He's been in the top-5 in drops for 3 of the past 4 years, so yeah, I'd say he has pretty bad hands. He's not as overrated as he's been in the past, but he's not elite.

[RashanGary]

I agree with Lurker. It matters. It's one of several attributes that make a receiver productive. I think every team wants at least one guy who can stretch the field.


The thing about Randy Moss though, both Tom Brady and Brett Favre said the thing people don't realize about him is how smart of a player he is. Not only that, he had amazing hands and an amazing ability to come down with jump balls. He was fast, very fast, but there have been a lot of very fast players who absolutely sucked. Moss's speed was a part of his game, but he was so much more than that. He's one of the most skilled receivers of our era on top of one of the fastest. Take away his skill and he's a fast guy who's in bad position and can't catch a ball. Knock him down to 4.45 and he's still a great player.

Speed is nice, but being able to be where the QB expects you to be, short area separation, positioning and being able to catch the ball are so much more important, it's not even close. There is a point where slow is too slow, but it's below 4.5 and most people on forums consider 4.5 to be too slow. Everyone wants a 4.4 player, but Fitz isn't even a 4.60 player and he'll go down as one of the most accomplished WR's in NFL history. Same with Rice.

The positions I like speed most are probably OLB, CB and safety. But even then, savvy and football skill far outweigh 40 yard dash times.

[Brandon494]

He had 15 drops last year (13% of catchable passes), leading the league. He's been in the top-5 in drops for 3 of the past 4 years, so yeah, I'd say he has pretty bad hands. He's not as overrated as he's been in the past, but he's not elite.

Does he have the best hands? No, but when you catch 100+ passes two seasons in a row you don't have bad hands.

[Lurker64]

Does he have the best hands? No, but when you catch 100+ passes two seasons in a row you don't have bad hands.

When your QB is Matty Checkdown, it's entirely possible that White's catch numbers are somewhat inflated. I mean, is he hot garbage? No. But I think he's pretty overrated. I would take Jennings and Nelson over White.

[Brandon494]

When your QB is Matty Checkdown, it's entirely possible that White's catch numbers are somewhat inflated. I mean, is he hot garbage? No. But I think he's pretty overrated. I would take Jennings and Nelson over White.

I'm sorry but that is what I called being a biased Packer fan. Nelson over Roddy White? :bs:

Nelson has Jennings taking opposing teams #1 CB, Finley occupying the safety attention, and has the best QB in the league throwing him perfect bombs down field. Now I'm not complaining by any means because the shit works but you guys need to stop acting like Nelson is a top 10 WR in the league. Roddy is a top WR in this league, does he drop some easy balls? Yup, but go ahead and tell me another weakness he has in his game. Shit even the great white hope had 3 drops in the Super Bowl. :whist:

[OS PA]

...

[rbaloha1]

40 times for WRs are meaningful, but they are not the be-all-and-end-all like some people (like the late Al Davis towards the end) think it is. There are other things that matter for a guy's ability to catch passes as a wide receiver: Hands, Wingspan, Burst, Change of Direction skills, physicality, ball skills, route-running savvy, body control, etc.

Jerry Rice is widely perceived as the greatest receiver of the modern era, and he was never that fast, but made up for it in other ways. However, the consensus second best receiver of the modern era, Randy Moss, is a player whose game was predicated on his ability to beat more or less anybody deep (when he wanted to). The consensus best receiver now is Calvin Johnson, and that guy's game is based mostly on the fact that he is ridiculously fast (4.35) for a man as big as he is (6050 239).

I mean, hell, Jordy Nelson's game is largely predicated on his physicality and his long speed (his short area quickness is not great, but he's got an extra gear.)

You don't need to be fast to be good, but you always want to be fast, since it's better.

If you had a receiver who ran a 5.3 he won't be playing in this league no matter how good he is at the other stuff. He could be covered by a couple of the league's better nose tackles!

Again 40 yard times are mostly meaningless -- yes if you run a 5.3 even with other great attributes you are disqualified from the NFL. Its a minute part of the equation.

Johnson and Moss are physical freaks (exceptions) with great 40 times as a bonus. Its the numerous other attributes that make them great. Other big and physical receivers like Terrell Owens, Amani Toomer, Plaxico Burress, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Sterling Sharpe, Brandon Marshall, Chad Johnson, etc. do not rely on 40 times to make plays.

Relying on stats is a lazy method for evaluating talent. Football is not Moneyball.

[rbaloha1]

I'm sorry but that is what I called being a biased Packer fan. Nelson over Roddy White? :bs:

Nelson has Jennings taking opposing teams #1 CB, Finley occupying the safety attention, and has the best QB in the league throwing him perfect bombs down field. Now I'm not complaining by any means because the shit works but you guys need to stop acting like Nelson is a top 10 WR in the league. Roddy is a top WR in this league, does he drop some easy balls? Yup, but go ahead and tell me another weakness he has in his game. Shit even the great white hope had 3 drops in the Super Bowl. :whist:

What would expect from the tea party? Heck they probably still put Hawk in the top 10 due to his amazing Combine Numbers. LOL
:violin:

[Lurker64]

I'm sorry but that is what I called being a biased Packer fan. Nelson over Roddy White? :bs:

There are NFL people who will tell you that Nelson is a tougher matchup than Jennings.

For example, Michael Lombardi of NFL.com/NFLN has Nelson as one of the blue chip receivers (along with C. Johnson, Fitzgerald, Cruz, and Green) while Jennings only merited red chip status (along with Wallace, A. Johnson, S. Johnson, V. Jackson, Marshall, Colsoton, Smith, Welker, and A. Brown)

He also notes that Julio Jones is closer to being a red chip (or blue chip) player than Roddy White.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000055261/article/eli-manning-rob-gronkowski-among-bluered-chips-on-offense

[rbaloha1]

There are NFL people who will tell you that Nelson is a tougher matchup than Jennings.

For example, Michael Lombardi of NFL.com/NFLN has Nelson as one of the blue chip receivers (along with C. Johnson, Fitzgerald, Cruz, and Green) while Jennings only merited red chip status (along with Wallace, A. Johnson, S. Johnson, V. Jackson, Marshall, Colsoton, Smith, Welker, and A. Brown)

He also notes that Julio Jones is closer to being a red chip (or blue chip) player than Roddy White.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000055261/article/eli-manning-rob-gronkowski-among-bluered-chips-on-offense

Nelson had a phenomenal season due to teams considering Nelson the #3 option. Its almost impossible to determine if teams treated Nelson as the #1 receiver what the outcome would be.

Nelson disappointed in the Chiefs game when Jennings was out.

[Brandon494]

That list meaning nothing to me, Clay Matthews didn't even make the list at OLB for blue or red chip player.

[Lurker64]

That list meaning nothing to me, Clay Matthews didn't even make the list at OLB for blue or red chip player.

I'm just saying that "Jordy Nelson is better than Roddy White" is hardly an opinion that is held only by Packer homers.

[mission]

Trust me, in Atlanta they recognize that Roddy is good but he's not even the best WR on his own team. They're enamored by Julio Jones and just want Roddy to shut up enough on twitter to not give other teams bulletin board material. He's lost a little of his mojo in the last couple seasons and being a guy who was never a burner, the half step has given him some problems creating separation.

And not that this means anything, but I had a chance to take him over Jordy in my paid FF league and I took Jordy. $1000 to the winner -- I hope I'm not just a homer! :lol:

[Lurker64]

Trust me, in Atlanta they recognize that Roddy is good but he's not even the best WR on his own team.

Well, he's not. If Quintorris puts it together, and Atlanta gets a better quarterback somehow, he could be a top 5 WR in this league, easy.

Among other things, Julio is quite a bit faster than Roddy White.

[Brandon494]

Pretty sure White had almost double the catches Julio had last season. Does he have the talent to be better than Roddy? Of course but hes not there yet. He might prove to be this season though.

[Brandon494]

Well, he's not. If Quintorris puts it together, and Atlanta gets a better quarterback somehow, he could be a top 5 WR in this league, easy.

Among other things, Julio is quite a bit faster than Roddy White.

Since we all know 40 times is what defines a WR, wait what thread is this again? :-P

[rbaloha1]

Since we all know 40 times is what defines a WR, wait what thread is this again? :-P

Bad habits continue.