Bounty Gate turnaround?

[Tony Oday]

http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2012/9/7/3301250/saints-player-bounty-suspensions-overturned-appeal

Looks like suspenstions could be done.

[Guiness]

Three stories at PFT

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/07/appeals-panel-overturns-bounty-suspensions/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/07/bounty-suspensions-will-now-go-back-to-the-commissioner/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/07/nfl-will-honor-decision-of-appeals-panel/

and something unrelated just for fun
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/06/maryland-politician-wants-ravens-to-punish-brendon-ayanbadejo-for-supporting-same-sex-marriage/

Just have one question maybe someone can explain before I wade through all this - what is this appeals panel? A three member internal panel? This is separate from the appeal heard by Goodell and the special master one? I don't understand. Sounds like the 9th circuit court or something equally cryptic.

[Smeefers]

Wow. Well, it looks like Hargrove has a legitimate chance at a lawsuit.

[Upnorth]

So should we bring in Hargrove? I realize it may not be that easy, but did he earn on of the dl spots? Who gets cut?

[pbmax]

1. McGinn is adamant that Hargrove was behind Muir, Wynn and Guy, so he does't think he is coming back. Other reporters are hanging their hat on a limited number of reps Hargrove sawy in camp as a contributing factor in his ineffectiveness. I think being a pass rusher in camp with a team that needed pass rushers and being let go first is a legitimate sign he isn't coming back.

2. Internal appeal court in this case are judges hired by the League and the NFLPA to hear appeals of the Special Master, who is in charge of challenges to the CBA. Its an internal system. The NFL, if it would want to challenge their ruling, would have to take them and the CBA to Federal Court, like the players are doing now.

3. Its possibly a short lived victory because the only order is for the League to clarify under which set of rules the players were punished under. If its a salary cap violation, then it goes to the System Arbitrator, the identity of whom I do not know but its apparently not Goodell. If is conduct detrimental to the game, then it stays with Goodell.

The matter the players brought before Federal Court is still under consideration. So this could get even more complicated.

The long and the short of it is, if Goodell decides to play it safe and rely on the best (apparently) of his evidence, he will hand it over to the Salary Cap arbitrator and system. If he wants to risk it, he might stick to his guns and re-suspend them under the conduct detrimental to the game.

The Federal Judge in the players lawsuit has already indicated she had major concerns about the process and case, but was unsure whether there was leeway for Court involvement. Given that there are real problems in some of the evidence provided by the League over to what extent players were involved (such as the League claiming it was Hargrove claiming he was going to get paid on sideline video), the safest case might be to preclude any other openings by sticking to the most concrete of the evidence.

A bounty system that encourages legal hits to disable an opponent is a thin slice argument to make unless you stick to the cap violations.

[Kiwon]

"Consistent with the panel's decision, Commissioner Goodell will, as directed, make an expedited determination of the discipline imposed for violating the league's pay-for-performance/bounty rule," the NFL said in a statement. "Until that determination is made, the four players are reinstated and eligible to play starting this weekend."

Let me get this straight. A three-person collective bargaining panel provided for by the agreement with the players union has the power and authority to overturn the decision of the league commissioner? Their solution - send it back to the man who made the original decision they disagreed with?

And this is all-intra NFL? This has nothing to do with the appeals in the works in the Federal Court system?

Besides the lawyers, who really runs the place - the Commissioner or a labor union's Appeals panel?

[mraynrand]

A bounty system that encourages legal hits to disable an opponent is a thin slice argument to make unless you stick to the cap violations.

And how severe can the cap violations be? We're not talking anywhere near a significant portion of a salary. And that's all he's got really. Are they going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were really trying to injure - for example - Favre, as opposed to just beating the stuffing out of him. The defense can call Ray Lewis and James Harrison as witnesses that you can hurt a guy worse in the normal course of the game without a bounty, than NO did with a bounty.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't care about the legal technicalities. I thought the players were punished too harshly. They are following their team's policy, and it's questionable they ever did anything illegal on the field. The players should have gotten slapped on the wrist; any significant punishment should be on the coaches.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ps. wake me if there is any news on Johnny Jolly

[Tony Oday]

Just following orders...I swear I didnt mean to burn the Jews....yeah we heard that before. They have their own minds and I think the players should have been suspended for 4 games and the coaches got what was coming.

[pbmax]

"Consistent with the panel's decision, Commissioner Goodell will, as directed, make an expedited determination of the discipline imposed for violating the league's pay-for-performance/bounty rule," the NFL said in a statement. "Until that determination is made, the four players are reinstated and eligible to play starting this weekend."

Let me get this straight. A three-person collective bargaining panel provided for by the agreement with the players union has the power and authority to overturn the decision of the league commissioner? Their solution - send it back to the man who made the original decision they disagreed with?

And this is all-intra NFL? This has nothing to do with the appeals in the works in the Federal Court system?

Besides the lawyers, who really runs the place - the Commissioner or a labor union's Appeals panel?

Its all intra-NFL, the Federal Courts (there are two active cases) are not involved in this decision. Its where the appeal went after the players disagreed with Stephan Burbank over whether or not Goodell had authority in the CBA to decide on suspensions.

However, its misleading to make it possessive of the labor union. Unlike the players in Federal Court, this is the system the League agreed to as well. And the League had a hand in hiring the judges.

The ruling raises a fair point, but it could easily have glossed over it like Burbank did. If Goodell is punishing cap violations, then he isn't the proper venue. But if he claims its conduct detrimental to the game, he is the judge, jury and appeals court. However, his case is slimmer and his evidence has some glaring holes.

[pbmax]

Just following orders...I swear I didnt mean to burn the Jews....yeah we heard that before. They have their own minds and I think the players should have been suspended for 4 games and the coaches got what was coming.

Comparing anything other than another genocide to the Holocaust just diminishes everything about your point; its not the same thing at all.

But strictly on the intent, the Players are not simply saying they followed orders. They are saying they engaged in no behavior on the field differently than any other players have. In fact, if anything, the Saints players took Williams rantings in stride and mostly seem to have ignored him. In fact, the two players who most likely went out of their way to injure a player in an illegal manner (the guy who hit Favre from behind and the player who laid out Warner) were not suspended by the League.

The player defense about the pay for performance system is more piecemeal. Goodell needs to show their conduct, outside of the pay for performance angle, hurt the League if he wants to decide on the punishments. And his evidence on this point seems much thinner than on pay for performance.

I think Goodell wanted to make a statement with this group and wanted to deliver the punishment himself. But he may have overreached.

[Kiwon]

Its all intra-NFL, the Federal Courts (there are two active cases) are not involved in this decision. Its where the appeal went after the players disagreed with Stephan Burbank over whether or not Goodell had authority in the CBA to decide on suspensions.

However, its misleading to make it possessive of the labor union. Unlike the players in Federal Court, this is the system the League agreed to as well. And the League had a hand in hiring the judges.

The ruling raises a fair point, but it could easily have glossed over it like Burbank did. If Goodell is punishing cap violations, then he isn't the proper venue. But if he claims its conduct detrimental to the game, he is the judge, jury and appeals court. However, his case is slimmer and his evidence has some glaring holes.

Well, just from a macro level, the only things I am a fan of is the game and NFL Films.

When 30-second Super Bowl ad spots go for $3.8 million then you know that corporate and legal interests are what the NFL is all about. The money involved is going to get such levels that items like the players concussion lawsuit, its likely settlement, and the implementation of that settlement is probably going to fundamentally change the game. There will be simply too much money invested to risk further expensive litigation as other grievance lawsuit dominoes are lined up.

I'm not saying that the past was great, or even very good, especially for the players. However, it's hard for me to be optimistic that the NFL will be in the future what it was for most of its existence, a game played by professional athletes guided by coaches. It's becoming something else altogether which usually involves outside financial interests, lawyers and courtrooms.

Okay, rant over. Now maybe I can talk my son into going to Law School so that I can get in on the future litigation pie.

[pbmax]

Maybe the clearest thought I have had about this case goes like this: Goodell and the League seem to have lock solid proof* that payments were being made under the cap table to players for performance in games. He then used Gregg Williams words and some other more questionable material to leverage this case away from cap penalties toward conduct detrimental so he could hold full and final sway.

I understand why he did it and the thought process. Williams was really over the top and was in dangerous territory. Williams and his ilk needed to be stopped. The Saints as a team had hidden the program from the League and needed to be punished for the original issue as well as the coverup. Goodell also wanted to send a message to the players not to participate in any such scheme. This all occurs under the League's concern over lawsuits about the safety of the game and public questions about it.

But the players have a strong point as well. The most egregious violators of the League's rules are the Saints and their coaches. Though this kind of language and motivational tactic used by Williams, is commonplace, the actions that went beyond the salary cap issue were committed by the team. If any case could be made for the players crossing this line, then its baffling that neither of the perpetrators responsible for the most egregious conduct on the field were disciplined.

With the possible exception of Hargrove, the players should have been subject to the punishments under the cap system.


* I say lock solid proof for two reasons. One, no one seems to challenge the fact that money changed hands, though I have seen no direct account of it. The story of specific payments may not be enough as players said they were encouraged to kick the money back into the kitty. Second, the players involved seems to leave a lot of wiggle room about the money involved; they mainly deny that their intent was to encourage illegal actions or injury but spend far less time claiming they didn't contribute.

[Guiness]

Need time and quiet to read PB's posts...and also hoping Patler will chime in with some of his knowledge. Just going to answer re: Hargrove being brought back. Didn't sound like it was a possibility, they cut him early and it sounded like he just plain old didn't make the team.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Just following orders...I swear I didnt mean to burn the Jews....
burning Jews...... Did the players actually take illegal shots on the field? I haven't followed story closely, but as long as they are following the rules, they are allowed to try and hit an opponent so hard that they are out of the game. It is not so clear cut as turning on the ovens.

[mraynrand]

Did the players actually take illegal shots on the field? I haven't followed story closely, but as long as they are following the rules, they are allowed to try and hit an opponent so hard that they are out of the game.

You would think the officials would notice that sort of thing and call a penalty. That's why if it comes down to proving this all by the nature of the hits on players, good luck. Ray Lewis and James Harrison hit harder without bounties.

[CaptainKickass]

Need time and quiet to read PB's posts...and also hoping Patler will chime in with some of his knowledge. Just going to answer re: Hargrove being brought back. Didn't sound like it was a possibility, they cut him early and it sounded like he just plain old didn't make the team.


I am very surprised that he did not make our team. He did provide pass rush for the Seahawks and many of my friends who are Hawks followers thought he was badass and were disappointed that he signed with us.

[Tony Oday]

Fine but still they have their own minds and ther was enough evidence that was there to suspend them and the players have to take responsibility for their actions. James Harrison pays his fines and now they should be suspended for 4 games just like starcaps and the like.

[Pugger]

I am very surprised that he did not make our team. He did provide pass rush for the Seahawks and many of my friends who are Hawks followers thought he was badass and were disappointed that he signed with us.

I wonder if he wasn't cut because of insubordination? I heard he got into a yelling match with his position coach in front of God and everybody. I'm sure there are disagreements between coaches and players but he did it publicly and it isn't a good idea to behave that way for everyone to see. I find it rather telling he is still unemployed.