Time to face fact

[ND72]

We are just not a good football team.

Offensively, the offensive line is a joke, across the board, not good. Rodgers is not good. He's holding the ball again, which makes our poor OL even worse. McCarthy an rodgers are both looking for the home run, and teams are saying beat us short, and we refuse to do it. Today my buddy and I kept saying that the CBs were playing 8yards off and dropping..run a damn slant. The OLB and DL were coming hard upfield...run a damn screen! Both times we did either of those, weird, they worked! Jennings is busy making commercials, Jordy looks scared, and our only reliable WR is fricken James Jones. I'm not even going to discuss Finley. Teams are completely our coaching/scheming McCarthy.

Defensively, I donno. We haven't played horrible but we still crap ourselves at different times.

Then to top it off we have to fight the refs. Perry crushes Luck, penalty. Shields gets shoved 10 yards, he gets a penalty. I mean I just have no clue why we get screwed on every call.

[packrulz]

I've noticed since last year's playoff loss that the Packers offense has become too pass happy, they've got to run the ball more. Green had a 40 yard run today, yet M3 abandoned the run. As far as the defense goes, I think they're tired because they can't get off the field. The Packers deserved to lose this game, in spite of the shitty calls.

[Bretsky]

agree nd; we are just not good enough to overcome bad calls and breaks that go against us

[pittstang5]

We are just not a good football team.

Offensively, the offensive line is a joke, across the board, not good. Rodgers is not good. He's holding the ball again, which makes our poor OL even worse. McCarthy an rodgers are both looking for the home run, and teams are saying beat us short, and we refuse to do it. Today my buddy and I kept saying that the CBs were playing 8yards off and dropping..run a damn slant. The OLB and DL were coming hard upfield...run a damn screen! Both times we did either of those, weird, they worked! Jennings is busy making commercials, Jordy looks scared, and our only reliable WR is fricken James Jones. I'm not even going to discuss Finley. Teams are completely our coaching/scheming McCarthy.

Defensively, I donno. We haven't played horrible but we still crap ourselves at different times.

Then to top it off we have to fight the refs. Perry crushes Luck, penalty. Shields gets shoved 10 yards, he gets a penalty. I mean I just have no clue why we get screwed on every call.

Good Post, I agree. My biggest beef is the playing calling, which has a trickle down effect as to why Rogers is holding on to the ball and taking sacks. He's not a rookie, tuck and run if it's not there or throw it away.

[King Friday]

I have major issues with McCarthy's offensive strategy. At this point, I'm beginning to think that MM can't accept the fact that the issues are partially his fault. He seems to refuse to adjust his offensive philosophy to match how defenses have adapted to our offense. With the talent we have on offense, there is no reason for us to be having the issues we are having. A lot of this falls on McCarthy, who is supposedly a highly intelligent offensive coach.

We need to run the ball more. Our OL is effective at run blocking if you get them lathered up a little. At this point, the passing game should not incorporate anything longer than a 5 step drop...and the ball has to be out of the QBs hand soon after hitting that 5th step. Stick Ben Affleck back behind the QB at practice holding a FAH Q paddle if need be to teach Rodgers a lesson. I am tired of watching him hold the ball for 8 seconds and take a sack for a 6-9 yard loss, which simply allows the defense to pin their ears back even more the next play. McCarthy better grow some balls and hold his MVP caliber QB in check. I don't think the receivers are playing horribly...they merely are trying to run a bunch of deep routes against defenses that are hanging back because we have completely dumped any portion of the WCO that was still in the playbook.

With the talent on this team, the level of play is an embarrassment. Now we have to go to Houston with the very real threat of being 2-4 if we don't pull our heads out of our asses.

[mraynrand]

Then to top it off we have to fight the refs. Perry crushes Luck, penalty. Shields gets shoved 10 yards, he gets a penalty. I mean I just have no clue why we get screwed on every call.

T Will's INT was called INT on the field and he didn't really lose control of the ball, even when it his the ground. Not enough to overturn, not really.

[pittstang5]

I gotta ask a question and I hope some of you in or near Green Bay or those that listen to press conferences can answer this:

Does the press/media ever question McCarthy on his play calling?

I live not too far from Philly and listen to most of the sports talk radio shows during the week. I sometimes catch a press conference from Reid. The media always goes after Reid about his playcalling.

So, I ask you peeps out there that live closer to Green Bay. Does McCarthy ever get questioned on his playcalling by the media/Press? if he doesn't, I think it's time someone should step up and do so. We are only fans of the game and we are clearly seeing a problem and nothing is being done to fix it.

[rbaloha1]

the Packers are a front running team that panics when falling behind. MM loses his cool too much which affects the team. Prior to the super bowl coming from behind was an issue.

Currently any deficit is met with complete panic by the entire team.

[mission]

we need to be willing to play to the 2-man defenses we're seeing... shorten your routes, run bunches and a ton of quick hitters. they keep thinking they can just run vertical and it ain't so easy... 3rd and short with the long passes are just killing me.

i dont think the team is very bad... feel coaching on both sides of the ball is not adapting and not putting players in best position to succeed.

[gbgary]

i think the spread (and empty backfield) is killing us. teams just tee off on us when we do it. the d is better than last year (but when playing soft it's dreadful) but the o has dropped off. it's not too late to fix things.

edit: i like tony's post above.

[Bossman641]

Getting real tired of the shotgun on 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2.

[ND72]

I gotta ask a question and I hope some of you in or near Green Bay or those that listen to press conferences can answer this:

Does the press/media ever question McCarthy on his play calling?

I live not too far from Philly and listen to most of the sports talk radio shows during the week. I sometimes catch a press conference from Reid. The media always goes after Reid about his playcalling.

So, I ask you peeps out there that live closer to Green Bay. Does McCarthy ever get questioned on his playcalling by the media/Press? if he doesn't, I think it's time someone should step up and do so. We are only fans of the game and we are clearly seeing a problem and nothing is being done to fix it.

I haven't really noticed it being asked, nor have I heard it not being asked, but McCarthy and Thompson say a lot which gives you very little of an answer. "how can the offensive line improve the protection?"..."pad level".....

[Pugger]

I have major issues with McCarthy's offensive strategy. At this point, I'm beginning to think that MM can't accept the fact that the issues are partially his fault. He seems to refuse to adjust his offensive philosophy to match how defenses have adapted to our offense. With the talent we have on offense, there is no reason for us to be having the issues we are having. A lot of this falls on McCarthy, who is supposedly a highly intelligent offensive coach.

We need to run the ball more. Our OL is effective at run blocking if you get them lathered up a little. At this point, the passing game should not incorporate anything longer than a 5 step drop...and the ball has to be out of the QBs hand soon after hitting that 5th step. Stick Ben Affleck back behind the QB at practice holding a FAH Q paddle if need be to teach Rodgers a lesson. I am tired of watching him hold the ball for 8 seconds and take a sack for a 6-9 yard loss, which simply allows the defense to pin their ears back even more the next play. McCarthy better grow some balls and hold his MVP caliber QB in check. I don't think the receivers are playing horribly...they merely are trying to run a bunch of deep routes against defenses that are hanging back because we have completely dumped any portion of the WCO that was still in the playbook.

With the talent on this team, the level of play is an embarrassment. Now we have to go to Houston with the very real threat of being 2-4 if we don't pull our heads out of our asses.

Rodgers can't hold the damn ball forever and expect his O linemen to hold off the pass rushers if his WRs can't get separation. And why can't these guys get separation?

[red]

they got that god damn thing at practice where bells and whistles and lights and shit go off 2.5 seconds after the ball is snapped. its suppose to teach the qb to get the ball out quick. talking heads talk about how its just proof that m3 is so awesome

so, i think we can throw that shit out the window

[mraynrand]

Generally, I think Stubby's offense has too many bells and whistles at this point.

[Deputy Nutz]

I don't think anyone had a problem with McCarthy's offense a year ago when records were being set and they were the best passing offense in the league. NFL coaches are really smart at football, and they figure shit out eventually, McCarthy has been done figured out, and for some reason the talent has regressed in 2012. That doesn't mean that the Packers can't get hot and go on a run, but they have to figure it out. McCarthy needs to go back to the drawing board and take some of the control back to his offense.

[mmmdk]

We may play like the Lions but Packers are not the Lions; that's a relief and hence no sleepless nights!

[Jimx29]

Just as i was "kinda" starting to be a believer in stubby, up comes that fiasco in the playoffs last year, and now this shit this year.
"Deer in the headlights" every fuking time.

[pbmax]

the Packers are a front running team that panics when falling behind. MM loses his cool too much which affects the team. Prior to the super bowl coming from behind was an issue.

Currently any deficit is met with complete panic by the entire team.

This theory might hold for certain games, but not today. They apparently panicked after leading by 18 today, then figured it out after getting behind again. Far more reasonable to conclude they doubted Green's inside rushing prowess.

[Joemailman]

Lots of shakeup on the offensive staff. The 2011 OC is in Miami. The 2011 QB coach is the OC. The 2011 TE coach is the QB coach. The 2011 RB coach is the TE coach. Is any of this a factor?

[mmmdk]

Lots of shakeup on the offensive staff. The 2011 OC is in Miami. The 2011 QB coach is the OC. The 2011 TE coach is the QB coach. The 2011 RB coach is the TE coach. Is any of this a factor?

Some! Add that Capers is still DC.

[LegandofthePack15]

Some! Add that Capers is still DC.

Not a Capers hater (though I do loathe the 3 men rush), but I have to agree somewhat.

Wayne was lighting up the Packers all day as the ONLY Colt receiver worth a fuck. Tramon Williams is the Pack's best cover corner. Shoulda let Williams shadow Wayne all game, even though Williams did allow a couple of completions to Wayne. Better than covering Wayne with safeties (including Woodson, who can't cover anymore), as Capers did during the Colts last two scoring drives.

Capers didnt shadow Colston with Williams last week, either.

[wist43]

I've always been a Capers skeptic, now I've gone over to Capers hater. Enough is enough... never trusted him. Always considered him far too much of a fancy pantser.

The announcers always say how "creative" he is, but all it amounts to is gimmicks; small/soft fronts, back end miscommunication, loose coverage, and busted coverages. You would think that MM would at some point, begin sitting in on defensive meetings and get a little more involved in the defensive game plan; but nothing will change - it's going to be a long year.

Houston is going to smack us around pretty good next week... 2-4, and looking pathetic doing it - seasons not lost yet, but it's close. If we lose in St. Louis, we're done.

[Gunakor]

Defense went to shit after Raji got hurt. Matthews and Perry can't get to the QB if there is no interior pass rush. Luck gets an extra second or two in the pocket, and his WR's have an extra second or two to beat coverage.

Perhaps it would have been wise to switch up to a physical brand of press coverage after Raji went down, our DB's harrassing Wayne and Hilton at the line and making them work a bit harder to get open. It would have helped to minimize the impact of that extra second or two. Playing off the line and giving them a free release every time the ball is snapped does no favors for a depleted pass rush.

[pbmax]

we need to be willing to play to the 2-man defenses we're seeing... shorten your routes, run bunches and a ton of quick hitters. they keep thinking they can just run vertical and it ain't so easy... 3rd and short with the long passes are just killing me.

i dont think the team is very bad... feel coaching on both sides of the ball is not adapting and not putting players in best position to succeed.

Allow me to channel Red and ask if anyone saw a slant fail yesterday.

[Joemailman]

the Packers are a front running team that panics when falling behind. MM loses his cool too much which affects the team. Prior to the super bowl coming from behind was an issue.

Currently any deficit is met with complete panic by the entire team.

The last 2 weeks Rodgers has led the offense to go-ahead TD's late in the 4th quarter. Yesterday after the defense then gave up a score, he led them on a drive starting with 35 seconds left to set up a makeable field goal. There was no panic on the part of the offense. The problem was that after the Packers went ahead with the TD, the defense couldn't get off the field. They gave up 1st downs on 3-7, 3-9, and 3-12.

[mraynrand]

Rodgers just can't win close games

[denverYooper]

Rodgers just can't win close games

lol

[pbmax]

JSO has gone full in on the Packers as not wanting to win badly, no fire in belly. Its the worst coverage I have ever seen. McGinn's column is as much character assassination as it is analysis or game story.

Andrew Luck apparently has an indomitable will to win. So does Reggie Wayne. He apparently sees no link between the two.

He also blows the analysis of the second to last play in my way of thinking. Rodgers immediately was calling for another play or package from the sideline after the completion to Cobb with a gesture that looked like he was crossing himself. McCarthy was looking at the playsheet trying to find a play. I am not positive, but I thought at the time that the play and the personnel got on the field late. McGinn thinks Rodgers blew the timing, but I think McCarthy was thinking FG and Rodgers wanted a play. But they time they came to agreement, they were short on play clock.

[Joemailman]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/173026821.html


"We're up 21-3 at halftime and we sort of changed our game plan in the second half and we couldn't do (expletive)," an obviously angry guard T.J. Lang said. "They knew all we were doing was throwing the ball so they were coming with everything they had."

Leave it to Lang to tell it like it is.

[denverYooper]

JSO has gone full in on the Packers as not wanting to win badly, no fire in belly. Its the worst coverage I have ever seen. McGinn's column is as much character assassination as it is analysis or game story.

Andrew Luck apparently has an indomitable will to win. So does Reggie Wayne. He apparently sees no link between the two.

He also blows the analysis of the second to last play in my way of thinking. Rodgers immediately was calling for another play or package from the sideline after the completion to Cobb with a gesture that looked like he was crossing himself. McCarthy was looking at the playsheet trying to find a play. I am not positive, but I thought at the time that the play and the personnel got on the field late. McGinn thinks Rodgers blew the timing, but I think McCarthy was thinking FG and Rodgers wanted a play. But they time they came to agreement, they were short on play clock.

I woke up thinking this morning that is was funny Cobb didn't take more yards on that last reception. Not that it would have been a great decision given the clock but there looked to be a lot of real estate up the sideline for the taking and he was clearly taking risks and trying to make something happen on his kickoff returns. On a day when borderline reckless play was winning, and Cobb was willing, it was just a funny moment for him to let up.

[Patler]

I don't think anyone had a problem with McCarthy's offense a year ago when records were being set and they were the best passing offense in the league. NFL coaches are really smart at football, and they figure shit out eventually, McCarthy has been done figured out, and for some reason the talent has regressed in 2012. That doesn't mean that the Packers can't get hot and go on a run, but they have to figure it out. McCarthy needs to go back to the drawing board and take some of the control back to his offense.

Exactly. McCarthy spent the off-season "tweaking" , but not changing, an offense that was a step ahead of most (not all) defensive game plans. DCs around the league spent the off-season studying those who had some success slowing the Packers in 2011, and came up with their own formulas, all of which have some common threads, rough up the WRs at the line and play the safeties deep. MM's tweaks to the offense, (mostly just the creative use of Cobb) have not been a match for the DCs game plans to stop the Packers.

It's not surprising that James Jones is emerging this year. He will fight toe-to-toe with DBs and win more than he loses. He makes the difficult catches in crowds. Nelson has been a bit of a disappointment so far, not taking the physical play as well as I expected. Finley should be part of the answerto defenses this year, but has been much too inconsistent.

IF MM holds true to form, nothing much will change until the bye week, which is when he typical self-scouts his own team and makes changes.

No one should be too surprised by this start. (2-3 doesn't surprise me, but losing to the Colts was unexpected.) They have played a lot of good teams, and MM's teams are relatively slow starting most years. The O-line is a leading culprit in their slow starts. That has been my one consistent rant over the years, and has spawned my dissatisfaction with Campen. MM's past season starts:

2006 - 1 and 4
2007 - 4 and 1
2008 - 2 and 3
2009 - 3 and 2; 4 and 4 at midseason
2010 - 3 and 3
2011 - 5 and 0

[denverYooper]

Exactly. McCarthy spent the off-season "tweaking" , but not changing, an offense that was a step ahead of most (not all) defensive game plans. DCs around the league spent the off-season studying those who had some success slowing the Packers in 2011, and came up with their own formulas, all of which have some common threads, rough up the WRs at the line and play the safeties deep. MM's tweaks to the offense, (mostly just the creative use of Cobb) have not been a match for the DCs game plans to stop the Packers.

It's not surprising that James Jones is emerging this year. He will fight toe-to-toe with DBs and win more than he loses. He makes the difficult catches in crowds. Nelson has been a bit of a disappointment so far, not taking the physical play as well as I expected. Finley should be part of the answerto defenses this year, but has been much too inconsistent.

IF MM holds true to form, nothing much will change until the bye week, which is when he typical self-scouts his own team and makes changes.

No one should be too surprised by this start. (2-3 doesn't surprise me, but losing to the Colts was unexpected.) They have played a lot of good teams, and MM's teams are relatively slow starting most years. The O-line is a leading culprit in their slow starts. That has been my one consistent rant over the years, and has spawned my dissatisfaction with Campen. MM's past season starts:

2006 - 1 and 4
2007 - 4 and 1
2008 - 2 and 3
2009 - 3 and 2; 4 and 4 at midseason
2010 - 3 and 3
2011 - 5 and 0

Spot on about the slow start. Last year erased everybody's memories that we all used to complain about the number of sacks and O-line problems through the first 8 games of pretty much every season M3 has coached before last year. It could very well be that the combination of the Packers playing in the Superbowl + the lockout + a slate of weaker defenses converged last year to allow the offense to roll right out of the gate.

What it comes down to is that the Packers aren't a dominant team, they have a tougher schedule this year, and they are once again facing a bit of an identity crisis. I can't remember where I read it but someone (JSO "scout" maybe?) said they thought the Packers would be that team that everyone pronounced dead at 3-5 but then went on to close out 7-1. I didn't think that was too far off but figured that the Rams would be the other loss, not the Colts. Of course, knowing this team, they'll probably go out and beat the Texans and then lose to the Rams.

[Fosco33]

In early Sept - we all predicted records. For me - I saw a 3-3 start (with an 11-5 finish). Albeit - very off on the games (thought we'd lose to Bears/Saints, Beat Seahawks/Colts).

If that holds true - we'll stomp the Rams and be at 3-3 with a very winnable schedule.

Things that concern me:
- Vikes are not easy Ws
- Cards/Rams are better than we hoped - but very beatable still
- Not sure we'll beat the Giants anymore

So - I'm not sure 11-5 is reasonable anymore. I could see 10-6 or 9-7 and then the Seahawk 'loss' may really hurt given the top heavy win/loss ratio of other teams.

[denverYooper]

JSO has gone full in on the Packers as not wanting to win badly, no fire in belly. Its the worst coverage I have ever seen. McGinn's column is as much character assassination as it is analysis or game story.

Andrew Luck apparently has an indomitable will to win. So does Reggie Wayne. He apparently sees no link between the two.

He also blows the analysis of the second to last play in my way of thinking. Rodgers immediately was calling for another play or package from the sideline after the completion to Cobb with a gesture that looked like he was crossing himself. McCarthy was looking at the playsheet trying to find a play. I am not positive, but I thought at the time that the play and the personnel got on the field late. McGinn thinks Rodgers blew the timing, but I think McCarthy was thinking FG and Rodgers wanted a play. But they time they came to agreement, they were short on play clock.

One could also look at it and say that the Colts were aggressive to the point of recklessness. It just paid off yesterday. Luck could have just as easily had 5 INTs and everyone would have said he was careless with the ball.

[pbmax]

Is this really evidence of a tendency to slow start? 2 years well above 500 to start (07,11). 2 years at 500 (or 1 game above, 09 and 10) and two years below 500 (06-well below and 08)? That seems a slow start only if average is slow for this team. These days that might be the case, but I am not sure about 06, 07 and 08.

Overall, that's either 18-13 or if you use the 500 figure for 09, its 19-15.

As for Campen, he definitely has an issue there this year with Saturday and the Guards. But we now know, much to my chagrin, that Colledge was really hurting them in other years and it wasn't just coaching. He is currently hurting the Cardinals, despite their good start, and despite being coached by well respected Russ Grimm. Their O line is a true tire fire. If you saw the Rams/cards game, you recognized Colledge immediately.

We also know that despite Greg Bedard's opinion, real coaching has not elevated Nick MacDonald to starting status on a team that has had a lot of O line flux. So in another blow to my self esteem, we now know Retail Guy had a point about the talent level of the line. Its not that Thompson ignored it, but it took time to assemble top flight talent with a couple of misses thrown in.

The better question is when will Saturday get the protections down with the Guards and RBs? My bet is about the same time M3 adjusts the offense as Patler suggested: the bye week.

You mix trouble up the middle with Rodgers thinking about Newhouse, and he looks exactly like he did in 08 or the worst of 09. Lang has the only prescription for the immediate future.

[Pugger]

I have major issues with McCarthy's offensive strategy. At this point, I'm beginning to think that MM can't accept the fact that the issues are partially his fault. He seems to refuse to adjust his offensive philosophy to match how defenses have adapted to our offense. With the talent we have on offense, there is no reason for us to be having the issues we are having. A lot of this falls on McCarthy, who is supposedly a highly intelligent offensive coach.

We need to run the ball more. Our OL is effective at run blocking if you get them lathered up a little. At this point, the passing game should not incorporate anything longer than a 5 step drop...and the ball has to be out of the QBs hand soon after hitting that 5th step. Stick Ben Affleck back behind the QB at practice holding a FAH Q paddle if need be to teach Rodgers a lesson. I am tired of watching him hold the ball for 8 seconds and take a sack for a 6-9 yard loss, which simply allows the defense to pin their ears back even more the next play. McCarthy better grow some balls and hold his MVP caliber QB in check. I don't think the receivers are playing horribly...they merely are trying to run a bunch of deep routes against defenses that are hanging back because we have completely dumped any portion of the WCO that was still in the playbook.

With the talent on this team, the level of play is an embarrassment. Now we have to go to Houston with the very real threat of being 2-4 if we don't pull our heads out of our asses.

Really?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think the defense is strong and getting better, they are just finding their way. (Although I think DJ Smith is the soft spot in the middle - once you get the idea that a player is no damn good, you keep seeing evidence to back up your view.)

The offensive line is a mystery. Sherrod and EDS in the wings might be long term upgrades.

[Tony Oday]

I cant believe that against a banged up secondary we didnt employ more 5 WR sets and just torch them with slants. Three step drops nullify pass rushes.

[Tony Oday]

DJ Smith was an embarassment out there yesterday. He found the right holes to plug but didnt attack and make a tackle when he was there.

[Patler]

Is this really evidence of a tendency to slow start?

I think there is a lot of evidence for that. In many of his seasons, second half performances have been much more solid, while early season games are a scramble.

Time and time again we have sat here in the early season wondering if the team will set a new record for most sacks allowed. Same for the ineptness of the running game. Most years both have improved as the season rolls on.

All in all, I prefer that. Recent history has shown that teams like the Packers and Giants (twice) who start slowly but turn it around by during the season, are often in good positions to play well through the playoffs. That said, I think the next three games are looking very crucial, although the NFC North might still be within reach even after a poor start.

The Lions might very well implode. I don't think Schwartz is the stabilizing influence they need.
I expect the Vikings to have one of their common second half swoons.
Could be the year of the Bears again, unless age catches up to their defense and Cutler plays as poorly in critical games as he often has.

[mraynrand]

I cant believe that against a banged up secondary we didnt employ more 5 WR sets and just torch them with slants. Three step drops nullify pass rushes.


The 35 yard patterns give the wideouts more exercise. It's about conditioning in the early season; they'll taper to finish strong.

[Smidgeon]

I cant believe that against a banged up secondary we didnt employ more 5 WR sets and just torch them with slants. Three step drops nullify pass rushes.

Boykin and Jennings were out, and Finley was injured. Would you use Williams as the fifth wide?

[denverYooper]

Exactly. McCarthy spent the off-season "tweaking" , but not changing, an offense that was a step ahead of most (not all) defensive game plans. DCs around the league spent the off-season studying those who had some success slowing the Packers in 2011, and came up with their own formulas, all of which have some common threads, rough up the WRs at the line and play the safeties deep. MM's tweaks to the offense, (mostly just the creative use of Cobb) have not been a match for the DCs game plans to stop the Packers.


I've heard a lot of Patriots analysis lately because the Broncos played them yesterday. One thing that has jumped out is that the Patriots, known for their high powered passing game have been running the ball a lot. Over 50% of the plays going into the game. Not sure what the mix is now but it's moved even further in that direction, as they ran 54 times yesterday as opposed to 33 pass attempts. Belichick has often been one to stay ahead of the curve. I am starting to wonder if he's doing it purposefully because so many defenses are now loaded up to stop the pass, especially against Brady.

[mraynrand]

Take what the defense gives you

[pbmax]

I've heard a lot of Patriots analysis lately because the Broncos played them yesterday. One thing that has jumped out is that the Patriots, known for their high powered passing game have been running the ball a lot. Over 50% of the plays going into the game. Not sure what the mix is now but it's moved even further in that direction, as they ran 54 times yesterday as opposed to 33 pass attempts. Belichick has often been one to stay ahead of the curve. I am starting to wonder if he's doing it purposefully because so many defenses are now loaded up to stop the pass, especially against Brady.

That's the evolution of their 2 TE package and a response to teams adapting to Welker and the pass game.

[rbaloha1]

Its not time to press the panic button.

Nice reminder about the slow starting Coach MM teams. Without a doubt, the offensive coaching shuffle is having an effect. MM is losing his cool way too much.

The defense is improved -- less 20+ plays, better tackling, better pass rush. Its third down defense that is the problem.

[Patler]

I've heard a lot of Patriots analysis lately because the Broncos played them yesterday. One thing that has jumped out is that the Patriots, known for their high powered passing game have been running the ball a lot. Over 50% of the plays going into the game. Not sure what the mix is now but it's moved even further in that direction, as they ran 54 times yesterday as opposed to 33 pass attempts. Belichick has often been one to stay ahead of the curve. I am starting to wonder if he's doing it purposefully because so many defenses are now loaded up to stop the pass, especially against Brady.

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it up.

Patriots year to date:

191 rushes for 827 yards (#3 in yards/game)
185 pass att. for 1370 yards. (#9 in yards/game)
and they lead the league in total yards/game.

[denverYooper]

That's the evolution of their 2 TE package and a response to teams adapting to Welker and the pass game.

I don't think Hernandez has been playing much lately, has he? He's been injured. But you're right, their offense has changed pretty consistently, from the record-setting 2007 team through a couple years of 2 TE + Welker sets to this year's run-fest. All iterations seem to be able to put up 30 ppg pretty consistently.

It's funny that the Packers looked to be going the same way with all of their TE acquisitions but they never really ended up using anyone other than Finley as a target. DJ Williams is very similar to Aaron Hernandez in dimensions and measurables but they don't use him near as much or as effectively. Part of it could be that the Packers have had an arguably better stable of WR.

The upshot at this point is that teams have caught up to the Packers, who seem to be standing still.

[pbmax]

I don't think Hernandez has been playing much lately, has he? He's been injured. But you're right, their offense has changed pretty consistently, from the record-setting 2007 team through a couple years of 2 TE + Welker sets to this year's run-fest. All iterations seem to be able to put up 30 ppg pretty consistently.

It's funny that the Packers looked to be going the same way with all of their TE acquisitions but they never really ended up using anyone other than Finley as a target. DJ Williams is very similar to Aaron Hernandez in dimensions and measurables but they don't use him near as much or as effectively. Part of it could be that the Packers have had an arguably better stable of WR.

The upshot at this point is that teams have caught up to the Packers, who seem to be standing still.

McCarthy has played a good deal of 2 TE, but not since Quarless went down. He even seemed to be willing to do it with Quarless and Crabtree, but not Finley and Crabtree. Not sure why.

Hernandez is gone and they tried Winslow in his place. They dumped that experiment and brought in someone no one has heard of to fill the spot and last I read (game before Broncos) they were going to stick with it. Seemed a larger question was the absence of Edelman and their reluctance to play Welker.

[mission]

DJ Smith was an embarassment out there yesterday. He found the right holes to plug but didnt attack and make a tackle when he was there.

He was by far the worst player on defense yesterday.

[ND72]

I don't think anyone had a problem with McCarthy's offense a year ago when records were being set and they were the best passing offense in the league. NFL coaches are really smart at football, and they figure shit out eventually, McCarthy has been done figured out, and for some reason the talent has regressed in 2012. That doesn't mean that the Packers can't get hot and go on a run, but they have to figure it out. McCarthy needs to go back to the drawing board and take some of the control back to his offense.

Actually I believe if you saw any posts of mine last year I made plenty of objections.

[Rutnstrut]

We are just not a good football team.

Offensively, the offensive line is a joke, across the board, not good. Rodgers is not good. He's holding the ball again, which makes our poor OL even worse. McCarthy an rodgers are both looking for the home run, and teams are saying beat us short, and we refuse to do it. Today my buddy and I kept saying that the CBs were playing 8yards off and dropping..run a damn slant. The OLB and DL were coming hard upfield...run a damn screen! Both times we did either of those, weird, they worked! Jennings is busy making commercials, Jordy looks scared, and our only reliable WR is fricken James Jones. I'm not even going to discuss Finley. Teams are completely our coaching/scheming McCarthy.

Defensively, I donno. We haven't played horrible but we still crap ourselves at different times.

Then to top it off we have to fight the refs. Perry crushes Luck, penalty. Shields gets shoved 10 yards, he gets a penalty. I mean I just have no clue why we get screwed on every call.

I agree 100%, imo I have always been of the opinion that Rodgers isn't as good as many here think he is. Add to that that Stubby isn't a great coach, nor is Capers you get what we have. A team with some talent, mediocre coaching and a GM that really has no clue how to fix it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He was by far the worst player on defense yesterday.

hey! I'm glad a DJ Smith bashing party has formed up - I thought I was the only one who noticed.

The guy was a tackling machine in college, set Division II records for tackling while at Appalachian State. So he's got to have instincts for playing football. I don't think he is enough of an athlete at NFL level. But he's better than about 6 other guys who had a shot at his position, so we live with what he can offer.

[Patler]

I agree 100%, imo I have always been of the opinion that Rodgers isn't as good as many here think he is. Add to that that Stubby isn't a great coach, nor is Capers you get what we have. A team with some talent, mediocre coaching and a GM that really has no clue how to fix it.

Yet, they managed to win a Super Bowl and put together a 15-1 season. As incompetent as you make them out to be, what do you have to say about the other 31 GMs, HCs, DCs and QBs?

[Brandon494]

I agree 100%, imo I have always been of the opinion that Rodgers isn't as good as many here think he is. Add to that that Stubby isn't a great coach, nor is Capers you get what we have. A team with some talent, mediocre coaching and a GM that really has no clue how to fix it.

LMAO

[Brandon494]

The last two seasons have taught me its not how you start a season but how you finish it. We started the season 4-4 the year we won the SB, I still have hope in this team. ;-)

[Rutnstrut]

The last two seasons have taught me its not how you start a season but how you finish it. We started the season 4-4 the year we won the SB, I still have hope in this team. ;-)

I still have faith, I always will. I remained a die hard Packer fan in the 70's and 80's, if that didn't make me lose faith in the Pack, nothing can;)

[denverYooper]

I still have faith, I always will. I remained a die hard Packer fan in the 70's and 80's, if that didn't make me lose faith in the Pack, nothing can;)

Amen.

[mraynrand]

The last two seasons have taught me its not how you start a season but how you finish it. We started the season 4-4 the year we won the SB, I still have hope in this team. ;-)


Me too, but I am facing fact

[mraynrand]

I still have faith, I always will. I remained a die hard Packer fan in the 70's and 80's, if that didn't make me lose faith in the Pack, nothing can;)


Be reasonable. I watched them in the 70s and 80s, but I didn't have any faith in them to win anything of significance - at all, ever. Watching Randy Wright faint in the huddle in the Metrodome killed any faith I had left.

[Smidgeon]

Seifert has a good stat: The Packers lose a lot when their pass ratio is over 70% and win a lot when it's under 70%. The whole blog post was worth reading.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/47522/steep-price-of-packers-pass-happy-ways

[Smidgeon]

hey! I'm glad a DJ Smith bashing party has formed up - I thought I was the only one who noticed.

The guy was a tackling machine in college, set Division II records for tackling while at Appalachian State. So he's got to have instincts for playing football. I don't think he is enough of an athlete at NFL level. But he's better than about 6 other guys who had a shot at his position, so we live with what he can offer.

He's still better than that guy from Iowa who looked great in training camp and failed miserably when Barnett went down.

[denverYooper]

Seifert has a good stat: The Packers lose a lot when their pass ratio is over 70% and win a lot when it's under 70%. The whole blog post was worth reading.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/47522/steep-price-of-packers-pass-happy-ways

Oh man, the best part is that the link gets shortened so that the end says "ass-happy-ways" here.

[ND72]

The last two seasons have taught me its not how you start a season but how you finish it. We started the season 4-4 the year we won the SB, I still have hope in this team. ;-)

I just told a friend of mine I like it when we start slow because McCarthy tends to get a little ticked, start doing some smarter things, and our teams end great.nwhen we've started fast we haven't seemed to finish well.

[gbgary]

when do we find out about Perry's hit on luck?

[sharpe1027]

I agree 100%, imo I have always been of the opinion that Rodgers isn't as good as many here think he is. Add to that that Stubby isn't a great coach, nor is Capers you get what we have. A team with some talent, mediocre coaching and a GM that really has no clue how to fix it.

Exactly. A few games is a way better way to measure the Packer's organization than looking at the results over the past several years.

[denverYooper]

when do we find out about Perry's hit on luck?

They won't do much about it. The Packers are a finesse team.

[Pugger]

I've noticed since last year's playoff loss that the Packers offense has become too pass happy, they've got to run the ball more. Green had a 40 yard run today, yet M3 abandoned the run. As far as the defense goes, I think they're tired because they can't get off the field. The Packers deserved to lose this game, in spite of the shitty calls.

Its hard to run the ball when your O line stinks at run blocking. Now we don't have a back who can make something out of nothing.

[Pugger]

Boykin and Jennings were out, and Finley was injured. Would you use Williams as the fifth wide?

There are a lot of people who want Finley out the door and Williams in his stead. I frankly don't see another TE on our roster who can stretch the field like Finley can. Unfortunatley Finley can't catch the damn ball.

[Pugger]

Be reasonable. I watched them in the 70s and 80s, but I didn't have any faith in them to win anything of significance - at all, ever. Watching Randy Wright faint in the huddle in the Metrodome killed any faith I had left.

Those of us who endured the 70s and 80s should be awarded a Purple Heart. Younger fans have no idea how dreadful this team was back in those dark times. :shock:

[packrulz]

Its hard to run the ball when your O line stinks at run blocking. Now we don't have a back who can make something out of nothing.
In my opinion they don't practice run blocking enough, I think our O-line is fine.

[Iron Mike]

I just told a friend of mine I like it when we start slow because McCarthy tends to get a little ticked, start doing some smarter things, and our teams end great.nwhen we've started fast we haven't seemed to finish well.

I kind of miss the Mike Sherman "We've REALLY got our backs to the wall, now" or "We've REALLY dug ourselves a hole, now" comments.

[Iron Mike]

There are a lot of people who want Finley out the door and Williams in his stead. I frankly don't see another TE on our roster who can stretch the field like Finley can. Unfortunatley Finley can't catch the damn ball.

Quarless.

[mraynrand]

I still believe in Finley

[cheesner]

I still believe in Finley

Its not like santa claus. I believe in Finley too. I just believe that Finley will continue to drop lots of passes.

[pbmax]

Saying a team that has passed a ton in a certain game is more likely to lose is like saying a homeowner with a firetruck in his front yard is more likely to have a house fire.

They are passing because they are behind in most cases. You can argue that the Colts game fits Seifert's profile because the Packers ran less in the 2nd half with a lead, but in most cases that is not what happens. Most games with a lead do not see the starting RB go down for good.

And as I recall, Packers ran 53 plays (30/23 by half). Not counting Rodgers scrambles as runs, they ran 18 times. That's 34% for just the running backs. With Rodgers, its 43%.

We have gone back to the days when football analysts listed the Cowboys as 173-1 when Tony Dorsett gained 100 yards.

[Upnorth]

Saying a team that has passed a ton in a certain game is more likely to lose is like saying a homeowner with a firetruck in his front yard is more likely to have a house fire.

They are passing because they are behind in most cases. You can argue that the Colts game fits Seifert's profile because the Packers ran less in the 2nd half with a lead, but in most cases that is not what happens. Most games with a lead do not see the starting RB go down for good.

And as I recall, Packers ran 53 plays (30/23 by half). Not counting Rodgers scrambles as runs, they ran 18 times. That's 34% for just the running backs. With Rodgers, its 43%.

We have gone back to the days when football analysts listed the Cowboys as 173-1 when Tony Dorsett gained 100 yards.

When Benson went down there were 17 plays, 8 of which were runs, so that is good balance. After that the only way we could run the ball was when the colts d sold out on pass protection.

[Smidgeon]

when do we find out about Perry's hit on luck?

I think fine days are Wednesdays. I could be wrong.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I still believe in Finley


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoJWzTasHE4

[mraynrand]

Its not like santa claus. I believe in Finley too. I just believe that Finley will continue to drop lots of passes.


Santa Claus.....wha..wha..whattarya talkin' about????? :whaa: :cry:

[pbmax]

When Benson went down there were 17 plays, 8 of which were runs, so that is good balance. After that the only way we could run the ball was when the colts d sold out on pass protection.

That's a fair point. And it matches everyone's recollection of the game.

[mraynrand]

We have gone back to the days when football analysts listed the Cowboys as 173-1 when Tony Dorsett gained 100 yards.

What a stat! Cowboys need to suit Dorsett up and get him running again!

[Pugger]

Quarless.

I think Quarless could be good too but when/if he returns will he have any speed left? :-(

[gbgary]

15k for perry...that's fucked up. IR for benson (but can return).

[denverYooper]

15k for perry...that's fucked up. IR for benson (but can return).

Little bit of CYA and STFU from the league there, methinks.

[Joemailman]

If they don't fine Perry, they are basically admitting the ref got the call wrong. I don't think the NFL wants to admit they screwed the Packers again. Therefore, Perry is fined for hitting the QB hard.

[sharpe1027]

Perry's led with his helmet. It might not have been helmet to helmet, but I think they've fined others for similar hits.

[ThunderDan]

15k for perry...that's fucked up. IR for benson (but can return).

15k for a legal hit.

If that hit is truly illegal the NFL can fine 20+ players a game for the same thing. This might be how they are going to pay for the additional money they had to pay the real refs.

[denverYooper]

Somewhere, James Harrison texted Perry "I feel ya brah".

Know what? Good that they fined him. Let's chalk that up to the cost of doing business. That was a mean (clean) hit. But put the league on notice that Nick Perry will plant your ass in the grass.

[Smidgeon]

15k for a legal hit.

If that hit is truly illegal the NFL can fine 20+ players a game for the same thing. This might be how they are going to pay for the additional money they had to pay the real refs.

Not really. It's the "Defenseless Player" rule they've recently tweaked. He lead with his helmet into a defenseless player. That's what the flag and fine was for.

But I loved that hit. It made the league notice the rookie on the other side.

[Fritz]

I kind of miss the Mike Sherman "We've REALLY got our backs to the wall, now" or "We've REALLY dug ourselves a hole, now" comments.

Here's something I haven't seen much talk about: twice this past week there have been comments about the team's lack of intensity. Once, from MM, there was a reference to not having good practices (which often means a team is not working hard or focused), and once from Rodgers that the team needs to come out with more intensity.

What's up with that? What's wrong with this team's attitude?

This one's on MM to fix.

[Bossman641]

Not really. It's the "Defenseless Player" rule they've recently tweaked. He lead with his helmet into a defenseless player. That's what the flag and fine was for.

But I loved that hit. It made the league notice the rookie on the other side.

Led with his helmet? I have hard time agreeing with that. Perry basically put his facemask in Luck's chest. Ya, his head was tilted forward a little but how the hell is he supposed to crouch down and explode forward with his neck tilted backwards?

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

[ThunderDan]

Not really. It's the "Defenseless Player" rule they've recently tweaked. He lead with his helmet into a defenseless player. That's what the flag and fine was for.

But I loved that hit. It made the league notice the rookie on the other side.

How is the QB defenseless? He knows that there is a pass rush coming. Perry wasn't even coming from Luck's blindside.

[Smidgeon]

How is the QB defenseless? He knows that there is a pass rush coming. Perry wasn't even coming from Luck's blindside.

I didn't say I agreed with the rule the way it stands. Just that it fell under the NFL's rules for hitting a defenseless player.

[George Cumby]

Led with his helmet? I have hard time agreeing with that. Perry basically put his facemask in Luck's chest. Ya, his head was tilted forward a little but how the hell is he supposed to crouch down and explode forward with his neck tilted backwards?

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

That hit gives me wood.

If that's wrong, I don't want to be right!

[LegandofthePack15]

Led with his helmet? I have hard time agreeing with that. Perry basically put his facemask in Luck's chest. Ya, his head was tilted forward a little but how the hell is he supposed to crouch down and explode forward with his neck tilted backwards?

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

Hit was legit. Luck acted like a pussy and ref threw pussy flag. Expect Luck to win ESPY Award for Pussy Play of the Year.

[ThunderDan]

I didn't say I agreed with the rule the way it stands. Just that it fell under the NFL's rules for hitting a defenseless player.

I thought the defenseless player was one who was going to catch a ball or get possession of the ball not a player that has the ball since when the play started.

[rbaloha1]

Legit fine.

NP knows to lead with shoulder not head.

[ThunderDan]

Clarifies that only "forcible blows" to the head of the passer will be fouls, not just any touch.

Here are the recent changes for defenseless players for passers.

[ThunderDan]

Led with his helmet? I have hard time agreeing with that. Perry basically put his facemask in Luck's chest. Ya, his head was tilted forward a little but how the hell is he supposed to crouch down and explode forward with his neck tilted backwards?

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

If you watch the replay closely Luck's head actual goes toward Perry at the hit. The physics of which dictate that Perry didn't hit the QB's head.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Legit fine.

NP knows to lead with shoulder not head.

I don't think the QB is the same as a defenseless reciever, you can lead with the helmet. The issue here was helmet-to-helmet.

Perry got his helmet underneath the face mask, which caused the QB's head to whip back. No way was the QB acting, he was hit by a ton of bricks there.

Bottom line: it was on the edge, but no way can you fault the ref for calling a penalty there. As far as the fine ..... it sucks, since the hit was not dirty, but he crossed the line ever so slightly. Next time use more shoulder or go lower.

[Zool]

I don't think the QB is the same as a defenseless reciever, you can lead with the helmet. The issue here was helmet-to-helmet.

Perry got his helmet underneath the face mask, which caused the QB's head to whip back. No way was the QB acting, he was hit by a ton of bricks there.

Bottom line: it was on the edge, but no way can you fault the ref for calling a penalty there. As far as the fine ..... it sucks, since the hit was not dirty, but he crossed the line ever so slightly. Next time use more shoulder or go lower.

Maybe get some glasses and read a physics book? As pointed out, Luck's head goes forward. He put a hat on the ball like is and should be taught. Otherwise time to go 2 hand touch for QBs.

[ThunderDan]

I don't think the QB is the same as a defenseless reciever, you can lead with the helmet. The issue here was helmet-to-helmet.

Perry got his helmet underneath the face mask, which caused the QB's head to whip back. No way was the QB acting, he was hit by a ton of bricks there.

Bottom line: it was on the edge, but no way can you fault the ref for calling a penalty there. As far as the fine ..... it sucks, since the hit was not dirty, but he crossed the line ever so slightly. Next time use more shoulder or go lower.

Do you work for the league office?

[swede]

Ohhkay.

[George Cumby]

That ain't cool, H.

[wootah]

Picture from JS Online:

http://i.imgur.com/25PIG.jpg

Gotta agree with cumby's post above.

[Kiwon]

Huckleby, you post a moving gif of one of America's worst moments. Why?

This is your idea of a Physics lesson?

You sociopath, what's next, video of Michael Vick drowning and electrocuting dogs?

[Iron Mike]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

I don't care what anybody says......that was Wayne Simmonsesque. :)

[LegandofthePack15]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/luck-hit-10-7-121.gif

I don't care what anybody says......that was Wayne Simmonsesque. :)

Look at # 69. Justice got served.

Sucks that the refs bailed him out as if he was Corporate America.

[pbmax]

Harlan, ask Zool or Mad to take down.

Its a picture perfect hit and I am having trouble getting my head around what banning it helps. It could be about concussions for the defender, but I think its more about the way the QB looks. Its PR safety, not actual safety.

[George Cumby]

[QUOTE=Iron Mike;690724

I don't care what anybody says......that was Wayne Simmonsesque. :)[/QUOTE]

That's what this team needs, a lot more edge and killer instinct.

[Kiwon]

Its a picture perfect hit and I am having trouble getting my head around what banning it helps. It could be about concussions for the defender, but I think its more about the way the QB looks. Its PR safety, not actual safety.

100% agree. That's my whole fear with the Concussion lawsuit. It will change the game, directly through rule changes or indirectly through the fear of more lawsuits that hit the bottom line - $$$$$$$$

It's FOOTBALL!! It's the way the game is played. It involves a violent act known as tackling. How else should Perry put him on the ground? Go low and risk a QB's knees? Ask nicely?

[LegandofthePack15]

Huckleby, you post a moving gif of one of America's worst moments. Why?

This is your idea of a Physics lesson?

You sociopath, what's next, video of Michael Vick drowning and electrocuting dogs?

The clip is confirmation that Oswald did NOT act alone. JFK's assassination was the brainchild of right-wing extremists within the US Gov. Think Joe McCarthy, George Wallace and even Ayn Rand. :x

[wootah]

Would be nice to keep the conspiracies/politics in fyi, guys.

[George Cumby]

Would be nice to keep the conspiracies/politics in fyi, guys.

+1

[LegandofthePack15]

Would be nice to keep the conspiracies/politics in fyi, guys.

K, sorry. :-D

[Harlan Huckleby]

That ain't cool, H.

Too soon?


It's a crude and tasteless comparision, but I think it is funny. Is sick humor now a censorable offense?

It is not an off-topic remark, I am making a comparision to the intense debate over the QB's head movement.

[George Cumby]

Too soon?


It's a crude and tasteless comparision, but I think it is funny. Is sick humor now a censorable offense?

It is not an off-topic remark, I am making a comparision to the intense debate over the QB's head movement.

Wow.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Huckleby, you post a moving gif of one of America's worst moments. Why?

This is your idea of a Physics lesson?

You sociopath, what's next, video of Michael Vick drowning and electrocuting dogs?

Yes, if I live long enough, I can see a tasteless Michael Vick joke video. When is OK to joke about that one, 2020?


I'm sorry that people are upset by my black humor, that was not my intent. But I will defend to my death your right to say I am a prick.

[Kiwon]

Yes, if I live long enough, I can see a tasteless Michael Vick joke video. When is OK to joke about that one, 2020?


I'm sorry that people are upset by my black humor, that was not my intent. But I will defend to my death your right to say I am a prick.

Dude, you ARE a prick but you don't have to be. I can feel the goodness in you. You can be turned.

Harlan, IT'S NOT FUNNY in any way, shape, or form. You are clever enough to make your point in other ways. Take a step toward the good side of The Force.

Take it down.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon, you are the one angry at the Muslims for demanding that the Danish cartoon be taken down.

I made a bad joke. I accept the condemnation. Black humor frequently crosses the line. The closer to the line, usually the funnier, not always.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon, you are the one angry at the Muslims for demanding that the Danish cartoon be taken down.

I made a bad joke. I accept the condemnation. Black humor frequently crosses the line. The closer to the line, usually the funnier, not always.

I gave my advice. 'nuff said.

Yes, I believe in free speech and oppose terrorism. Very extreme, huh?

You can hardly equate the assassination of Kennedy to a cartoonist's drawing that some might find offensive.

A cartoon doesn't have the power to wound a whole country and change the course of history. Kennedy's murder did.

(Here's a thought....how about we talk about football in the Packers forum?)

[pbmax]

Kiwon, I think there are plenty of steps between lawsuits changing the game making it unrecognizable and simply crafting a safer game (not absolutely safe, but considerably safer).

Unfortunately, the League right now, with an assist by way of inaction from the NFLPA, is more concerned with PR, appearances and the lawsuit than they are in actual rules changes that protect players.

Its going to have to be colleges and high schools who do this heavy lifting, which they could start by lifting or relaxing the regulations over the A-11 offense and its variants. While part of the offense rests on confusion and deception (in certain scrimmage kick formations, regulations on numbers don't hold for eligible receivers so the tackle split wide could be eligible), the idea of unclogging the LOS with bigger splits or only 3 or 4 down lineman is an idea worth exploring. Because most data so far so the worst damage is done with consistent, low to medium level repeated trauma. Not hits like Perry's.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon, I think there are plenty of steps between lawsuits changing the game making it unrecognizable and simply crafting a safer game (not absolutely safe, but considerably safer).

Unfortunately, the League right now, with an assist by way of inaction from the NFLPA, is more concerned with PR, appearances and the lawsuit than they are in actual rules changes that protect players.

Its going to have to be colleges and high schools who do this heavy lifting, which they could start by lifting or relaxing the regulations over the A-11 offense and its variants. While part of the offense rests on confusion and deception (in certain scrimmage kick formations, regulations on numbers don't hold for eligible receivers so the tackle split wide could be eligible), the idea of unclogging the LOS with bigger splits or only 3 or 4 down lineman is an idea worth exploring. Because most data so far so the worst damage is done with consistent, low to medium level repeated trauma. Not hits like Perry's.

Maybe you have more faith than I do. The U.S. is the most litigious society on earth.

Deep pockets = $$$ = lawyers and class action suits.

If the Concussion Suit is not settled with compensation for the players and common sense rule changes, if necessary, and the Plantiffs win in court, then that will open the floodgates for other lawsuits that pertain to specific injuries. If that's the case and a pattern begins, at some point, the owners are going to get sick of paying out money due to injuries and then make serious changes in the game to avoid further losses. I could see this senario happening in the next 10-15 years.

The whole issue of injury and player responsibilty needs to handled now, and comprehensively, for the good of the game.

[mraynrand]

Kiwon, I think there are plenty of steps between lawsuits changing the game making it unrecognizable and simply crafting a safer game (not absolutely safe, but considerably safer).

Unfortunately, the League right now, with an assist by way of inaction from the NFLPA, is more concerned with PR, appearances and the lawsuit than they are in actual rules changes that protect players.

Its going to have to be colleges and high schools who do this heavy lifting, which they could start by lifting or relaxing the regulations over the A-11 offense and its variants. While part of the offense rests on confusion and deception (in certain scrimmage kick formations, regulations on numbers don't hold for eligible receivers so the tackle split wide could be eligible), the idea of unclogging the LOS with bigger splits or only 3 or 4 down lineman is an idea worth exploring. Because most data so far so the worst damage is done with consistent, low to medium level repeated trauma. Not hits like Perry's.


To you point and kiwon's: The issue is damage as you say from repeated trauma. Which means the issue is whether football is to remain a contact sport with bodies colliding. There would be some mitigation in the directions you indicate, but so long as there is blocking and tackling, you are going to have players that will develop brain syndromes - dementia, etc. So the issue becomes whether it will be common and easy to sue the NFL over this stuff, no matter how much the NFL tries to improve safety. If there are consistent, successful lawsuits, the game will have to change. Who knows, with technology the way it is, it may be practical to play a two hand touch kind of football. I see something like that being the future (think gloves with sensors and touch pads on the thighs and calves of players), especially with soccer moms wanting to save the kiddies - pbmax is right about that - it will come from the high schools and those very nervous and highly activist moms protecting their babies.

[mraynrand]

It is Friday and I am still not facing fact

[pbmax]

It is Friday and I am still not facing fact

I am currently facing Nort.

I think there are any number of ways the League can indemnify itself against future claims. Nothing will be watertight, but I don't expect this to become a regular line item on team financial reports: Court Losses re Concussions. I could be wrong, but other workplaces have adopted policies to safeguard themselves and workers while continuing to operate and there are plenty of workplaces less safe than the NFL. If necessary, I don't doubt that Congress could be induced to act to support such a settlement.

There is no public enthusiasm to eliminate football.

The only question is what will drive the changes. Clear headed thinking, or panic about PR and lawsuits? My money is on panic, but its a slim call right now, mostly because I don't think Goodell has a good sense of how to proceed other than by issuing excitable public screeds.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You can hardly equate the assassination of Kennedy to a cartoonist's drawing that some might find offensive.

A cartoon doesn't have the power to wound a whole country and change the course of history.

We're comparing a joke about the Kennedy assasination with a joke about Muhammed. You are dead wrong, (speaking of dead, what do you think of the 80's rock band The Dead Kennedys?) the Danish cartoon did have the power to wound the feelings of a billion or so Muslims, even more so than a reminder of the Zapruder film offended you.

I think it is appropriate to criticize me for bad taste and insensitivity, just as the Danish cartoon was over the line, but calling for censorship is not the way to go.

[Freak Out]

I believe the majority of male Muslims concuss themselves while praying...have you seen some of those prayer calluses?

[sharpe1027]

Bottom line: it was on the edge, but no way can you fault the ref for calling a penalty there. As far as the fine ..... it sucks, since the hit was not dirty, but he crossed the line ever so slightly. Next time use more shoulder or go lower.

+1. It could have gone either way under the new QB pampering rules.

[George Cumby]

I am currently facing Nort.



And the NFL is facing Tort.

[LP]

I believe the majority of male Muslims concuss themselves while praying...have you seen some of those prayer calluses?

Are they suing the NFL too?

[Freak Out]

Kiwon and HH have added them to the list of plaintiffs.

[mraynrand]

I believe the majority of male Muslims concuss themselves while praying...have you seen some of those prayer calluses?

Does that explain the dementia?*






*I am only referring to extreme radical Islam. Please do not Fatwa me.

[Patler]

I don't normally read anything from HH anymore, as he is the only person that I have on my ignore list. Nevertheless, I decided to click "View Post" to see what all of the hullabaloo was about.

HH, are you really as foolish as you are making yourself out to be?

There is a huge difference between black humor about a sensitive issue and what you have done. The actual video of Kennedy's head exploding will never be funny to most people, not in any way shape or form. Yes, at some point a side of humor may evolve from the event, references to it, cartoons about it, etc.; but not the actual detailed, slow motion video of the killing. That will never be funny to any but the few depraved odd individuals, no matter how it is used.

BIG, BIG difference between a cartoon, and an actual video of the event.

You asked when it would no longer be too soon for jokes about the assassination. Some things will never be funny to the people who remember them and experienced them, so it is too soon until most of the contemporaries are gone. Even then, the actual video, colorized, enhanced and slowed to gruesome detail will still not be funny to most.

There are often humorous comments tied to Lincolns assassination, but if a gruesome video existed of the actual event, I doubt any self-respecting humorist would use it.

An actual pink mist video will never be funny to most people, even when desensitized to what it shows. A cartoon about it, perhaps. but not the real life video.

[Patler]

It is Friday and I am still not facing fact


I am currently facing Nort.


And the NFL is facing Tort.

I wasn't going to admit this,....but

The day the thread came up, I glanced at the title "Time to face fact", and mistook the "c" in "fact" for an "r". I figured the thread was headed to the Garbage Can! :oops:

[Guiness]

Dude, you ARE a prick but you don't have to be. I can feel the goodness in you. You can be turned.

Harlan, IT'S NOT FUNNY in any way, shape, or form. You are clever enough to make your point in other ways. Take a step toward the good side of The Force.

Take it down.

So...did everyone see the tweet post showing doggy biscuits on Vick's table, and know he has admitted to owning a dog? There's a can of worms!

[Patler]

So...did everyone see the tweet post showing doggy biscuits on Vick's table, and know he has admitted to owning a dog? There's a can of worms!

Originally, I think he was forbidden from owning a dog. But, I have a recollection of him arguing to the court that it was unfair to his kids, to deny them from having a pet. Of course, he could have always gotten a cat for them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I see the joke comparing Kennedy assasination analysis with "physics" analysis of hit on a QB was censored.

Many of the same people who criticize Muslims for demanding censorship of a video on the internet turn around and demand censorship when something bothers them. The .gif of the Zapruder film shows clip of a 60-year-old scene that people have seen hundreds of times, so it is a cultural icon. That's why it is a fat target for humor. Sick humor that falls flat should not be the target of censorship. I am glad the U.S. has not bent to pressure and censored the "Innocense of Muslims" on the internet.

I am very sorry that this website does not have respect for free speech.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYkrjjTkjdk

[MadtownPacker]

I myself didnt take down the image. But I found what you posted and all I can say is fuck you and your freedom of speech talk. That was NOT cool at all. Everyone checked your ass so nothing for me to do. You could have put a link saying it was some highly offensive shit. Asshole.

[George Cumby]

I myself didnt take down the image. But I found what you posted and all I can say is fuck you and your freedom of speech talk. That was NOT cool at all. Everyone checked your ass so nothing for me to do. You could have put a link saying it was some highly offensive shit. Asshole.

MTP is correct.

Constitutional Law 101:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nothing about private parties. The BoR protects the people from the Government, not other people.

[mraynrand]

MTP is correct.

Constitutional Law 101:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nothing about private parties. The BoR protects the people from the Government, not other people.

Hey, what's with all this political talk? I come to Packerrats for football, not politics! :razz:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Nothing about private parties. The BoR protects the people from the Government, not other people.

It's not a question of legal rights, it's a question of values. Everyone accepts that private organizations can set their own guidelines and standards. I wouldn't come in here and post beaver shots because I respect the guidelines. By what standards is posting the 1000x seen Zapruder clip as part of a gag censorable in this forum? None. It was an on-topic parody. It upset some people. Those people were not content to criticize, they demanded it be removed. And some censor took the gutless path.

Youtube would certainly be within their legal rights to remove "The Innocence of Muslims" video out of sensitivity to people's feelings. But they have decided to respect the spirit of free speech. It's important to stand up for tolerance. I'm glad our government is not joining the U.N. demand for greater censorship.

You find out whether free speech is allowed when somebody posts something disturbing. It's the offensive free speech that matters. Everybody is cool when the other guy is offended, in fact many call the Muslims "primitive" and "crazy" when they demand censorship of religous mockery. Different story when shoe is on the other foot.

[Patler]

I see the joke comparing Kennedy assasination analysis with "physics" analysis of hit on a QB was censored.

Many of the same people who criticize Muslims for demanding censorship of a video on the internet turn around and demand censorship when something bothers them. The .gif of the Zapruder film shows clip of a 60-year-old scene that people have seen hundreds of times, so it is a cultural icon. That's why it is a fat target for humor. Sick humor that falls flat should not be the target of censorship. I am glad the U.S. has not bent to pressure and censored the "Innocense of Muslims" on the internet.

I am very sorry that this website does not have respect for free speech.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYkrjjTkjdk

My gosh, you really do not see the difference between the Seinfeld parody of the Warren Commission report, and your use of the ENHANCED Zapruder footage of the actual murder??? Had you been sufficiently clever/creative to put together a description along the same lines as Seinfeld, an actual parody, most of us would likely have chuckled.

Use of the actual footage is not funny. Stories about it might be. Besides, the gif you posted was not the Zapruder footage that most of us have seen many times. The enlarged, colorized, enhanced, slow motion footage you posted is much more offensive than even the original footage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My gosh, you really do not see the difference between the Seinfeld parody of the Warren Commission report, and your use of the ENHANCED Zapruder footage of the actual murder??? Had you been sufficiently clever/creative to put together a description along the same lines as Seinfeld, an actual parody, most of us would likely have chuckled.

No one suggested that you should think it is funny. As I said, I accept the condemnation. Black humor jokes quite often become groaners. My issue is censorship.

[Patler]

It's not a question of legal rights, it's a question of values. Everyone accepts that private organizations can set their own guidelines and standards. I wouldn't come in here and post beaver shots because I respect the guidelines. By what standards is posting the 1000x seen Zapruder clip as part of a gag censorable in this forum? None. It was an on-topic parody. It upset some people. Those people were not content to criticize, they demanded it be removed. And some censor took the gutless path.

Youtube would certainly be within their legal rights to remove "The Innocence of Muslims" video out of sensitivity to people's feelings. But they have decided to respect the spirit of free speech. It's important to stand up for tolerance. I'm glad our government is not joining the U.N. demand for greater censorship.

You find out whether free speech is allowed when somebody posts something disturbing. It's the offensive free speech that matters. Everybody is cool when the other guy is offended, in fact many call the Muslims "primitive" and "crazy" when they demand censorship of religous mockery. Different story when shoe is on the other foot.

No, yours was definitely not a parody. A parody is an original creation to mock, trivialize or otherwise make fun of something that was original. You simply posted the original. Where was the parody?

[Harlan Huckleby]

No, yours was definitely not a parody. A parody is an original creation to mock, trivialize or otherwise make fun of something that was original. You simply posted the original. Where was the parody?

The parody was not of the Zapuder clip, that was just a prop. The parody was of Zool and others who were arguing the head movement and physics of the hit on the QB. I found that argument pretty silly, especially since you couldn't really see enough detail of what happened. And even if they had a good argument, I enjoyed making fun of their earnestness. And I still think the joke was funny, even if I laugh alone.

[Patler]

HH;
You seem to be suggesting that free speech means saying/publishing whatever you want to, wherever you want to, whenever you want to. It never has meant that, and never will.

[Patler]

The parody was not of the Zapuder clip, that was just a prop. The parody was of Zool and others who were arguing the head movement and physics of the hit on the QB. I found that argument pretty silly, especially since you couldn't really see enough detail of what happened. And even if they had a good argument, I enjoyed making fun of their earnestness. And I still think the joke was funny, even if I laugh alone.

If it was just a prop, and not your "speech", where is the censorship?

[Harlan Huckleby]

HH;
You seem to be suggesting that free speech means saying/publishing whatever you want to, wherever you want to, whenever you want to. It never has meant that, and never will.

uhh, hardly. Pay attention.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If it was just a prop, and not your "speech", where is the censorship?
symbols, images, films are all a part of speech.

And if you want to take it as nutty as our Supreme Court - so is money!

People have different thresholds of sensitivity. I see that .gif of the Zapruder film and see only a reminder of familar imagery, it is not remotely offensive. Kiwon has declared that any reference to the assasination is in poor taste, so presumably the Seinfeld skit is inappropriate for him. (Very insensitive of you to declare such parodies as harmless when they are hurtful to Kiwon. ) You claim that the threshold was passed by the .gif because it was "enhanced". (I have no idea what this means, but I think if we hooked electrodes to your head and taped your eyelids open ala "Clockwork Orange", your response to the original Zapruder and that tiny little "enhanced" gif would be identical. Which is to say no response at all in both cases, which is also to say you are blowing it out your ass.)

[MadtownPacker]

Looks like we have all agreed you are truly the victim in all this HH. Will you ever forgive us? Great! Now get over it.

[mraynrand]

Is someone really arguing he has a constitutional 'free speech' right on a private forum? If so: What a fool.

[th87]

I believe the majority of male Muslims concuss themselves while praying...have you seen some of those prayer calluses?

Haha how many have you seen?

Of the probably thousand or so Muslims I've ever talked to (at school, cultural and family get togethers), never have I ever noticed a prayer callous.

[mraynrand]

Haha how many have you seen?

Of the probably thousand or so Muslims I've ever talked to (at school, cultural and family get togethers), never have I ever noticed a prayer callous.

relax

[George Cumby]

Is someone really arguing he has a constitutional 'free speech' right on a private forum? If so: What a fool.

Initially. When that didn't work, the argument drifted over to a matter of "values". That doesn't seem to be working to well, either.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Initially. When that didn't work, the argument drifted over to a matter of "values". That doesn't seem to be working to well, either.

Free speech is never absolute, we compromise free speech all the time, everywhere.

There is a difference between free speech being a (qualified) legal right, and a value. Sorry if you don't understand what that word "values" means, but it is a principle that a person or group adopts. I'll try one more time:

A website that defines its guidelines, then lives by those guidelines, especially when some people are upset, is operating with integriy, and it it values free speech. For instance, youtube may be sorely tempted to censor the "Innocense of Muslims" video, but they say they won't because the video doesn't violate its policies. That is the spirit of free speech, and you should notice it has nothing to do with constitutional rights to free speech.

Another example: when you demanded that a picture be taken down because it upset you, you either have no understanding or respect for free speech, or you were too mad to think straight. You behaved exactly like the angry Muslim demanding justice for an offensive video on the internet. In short, you were a jackass.

Hope that helps!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Is someone really arguing he has a constitutional 'free speech' right on a private forum? If so: What a fool.

no, that argument was never made, it certainly would be a foolish one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Looks like we have all agreed you are truly the victim in all this HH. Will you ever forgive us? Great! Now get over it.

sorry, amigo, a horrific crime has occured, a terrible stain on the soul of packerrats. No man is free until all men are free. Remember the Alamo! Vendetta!

[MadtownPacker]

sorry, amigo, a horrific crime has occured, a terrible stain on the soul of packerrats. No man is free until all men are free. Remember the Alamo! Vendetta!
I wish there was a way of seeing how many people have you on ignore. :lol:

Where do I split this thread so I can put all the crap some wheres else?

[George Cumby]

I wish there was a way of seeing how many people have you on ignore. :lol:

Where do I split this thread so I can put all the crap some wheres else?

Where is the "ignore" button, anyway?

[Patler]

symbols, images, films are all a part of speech.

And if you want to take it as nutty as our Supreme Court - so is money!

People have different thresholds of sensitivity. I see that .gif of the Zapruder film and see only a reminder of familar imagery, it is not remotely offensive. Kiwon has declared that any reference to the assasination is in poor taste, so presumably the Seinfeld skit is inappropriate for him. (Very insensitive of you to declare such parodies as harmless when they are hurtful to Kiwon. ) You claim that the threshold was passed by the .gif because it was "enhanced". (I have no idea what this means, but I think if we hooked electrodes to your head and taped your eyelids open ala "Clockwork Orange", your response to the original Zapruder and that tiny little "enhanced" gif would be identical. Which is to say no response at all in both cases, which is also to say you are blowing it out your ass.)

Symbols, images, films, etc. CAN be speech, they are not automatically protected speech or even speech generally. YOU described the film in your use of it as "just a prop" in your "parody" of Zool and others. If it was just a prop, it was not your "speech", so what are you bitching about if some wanted your prop removed?

When did I say the Seinfeld parody was harmless? I can understand it being offensive to some.
I don't recall Kiwon declaring that any reference to the assassination is in poor taste.
Up to your old tricks again, I see. When backed into a corner you simply make up shit about others, then "refute" it. What a weakass approach to discussion.

Since you have degraded the discussion to that point you have, and since this thread should be a football discussion anyway, I will not be tempted to click "View Post" again for any of your posts, and will simply leave you on ignore.

[Kiwon]

We are just not a good football team.

Offensively, the offensive line is a joke, across the board, not good. Rodgers is not good. He's holding the ball again, which makes our poor OL even worse. McCarthy an rodgers are both looking for the home run, and teams are saying beat us short, and we refuse to do it. Today my buddy and I kept saying that the CBs were playing 8yards off and dropping..run a damn slant. The OLB and DL were coming hard upfield...run a damn screen! Both times we did either of those, weird, they worked! Jennings is busy making commercials, Jordy looks scared, and our only reliable WR is fricken James Jones. I'm not even going to discuss Finley. Teams are completely our coaching/scheming McCarthy.

Defensively, I donno. We haven't played horrible but we still crap ourselves at different times.

Then to top it off we have to fight the refs. Perry crushes Luck, penalty. Shields gets shoved 10 yards, he gets a penalty. I mean I just have no clue why we get screwed on every call.

Back to football.

I think the legacy of 15-1 last season is high expectations. Realistically is hard not to be disappointed. We got spoiled. I did, at least.

But, we are 1-0 in the Division. That's as good as anybody. The first goal is always winning your Division.

Sherman had a couple of years where the Packers started off badly and still made the playoffs. Injuries were a problem then too. Yeah, Rodgers is getting knocked around, so did Favre. Benson's hurt, Favre won without top-flight backs. To his credit, Jones has improved as have the Defense (it had to).

The end of the Seattle game was a debacle. The coaching criticism is spot on. M3 and Capers just seem slow to adjust.

All I'm saying is things are bad, but they could be worse. This isn't last year's Packers. A-Rod and Jennings are mortal this year. The OL concerns me the most. Maybe it will be the Defense that salvages the season. The Pack can be a good team, but probably not a great one. Let's win within our division and see what happens.

[ND72]

Back to football.

I think the legacy of 15-1 last season is high expectations. Realistically is hard not to be disappointed. We got spoiled. I did, at least.

But, we are 1-0 in the Division. That's as good as anybody. The first goal is always winning your Division.

Sherman had a couple of years where the Packers started off badly and still made the playoffs. Injuries were a problem then too. Yeah, Rodgers is getting knocked around, so did Favre. Benson's hurt, Favre won without top-flight backs. To his credit, Jones has improved as have the Defense (it had to).

The end of the Seattle game was a debacle. The coaching criticism is spot on. M3 and Capers just seem slow to adjust.

All I'm saying is things are bad, but they could be worse. This isn't last year's Packers. A-Rod and Jennings are mortal this year. The OL concerns me the most. Maybe it will be the Defense that salvages the season. The Pack can be a good team, but probably not a great one. Let's win within our division and see what happens.

Ahman Green?

I know 15-1 changed our perspective, but it just seems as if McCarthy and Capers are getting out worked, which to me is frustrating.

[Pugger]

What is also frustrating is we have the same roster offensively sans Wells as we had last year's 15-1. We have the talent to go toe to toe with any team but we go into Indy and bomb in the second half. It almost appeared like the teams changed uniforms at halftime. If we perform like that second half during any stretch tonight in Houston its gonna be a long night.

If Raji is out tonight I hope Pickett ate his Wheaties this morning...

[Patler]

We have often commented here about a lack of hustle, intensity, whatever on defense; contrasting the Packers one or two guys in on a tackle to the gang tackling seen from the leagues better defenses. The following article makes a player by player analysis of effort/hustle on defense:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-doesnt-get-an-a-for-effort-e976tjn-174061711.html

As usual, since I agree with everything except a few statements in the article, I think it is exceptionally well-written! :grin: :grin:

[Patler]

What is also frustrating is we have the same roster offensively sans Wells as we had last year's 15-1. We have the talent to go toe to toe with any team but we go into Indy and bomb in the second half. It almost appeared like the teams changed uniforms at halftime. If we perform like that second half during any stretch tonight in Houston its gonna be a long night.

Sure, but in 2011 you had a number of people outplay their previous bests by a wide margin, and you had to ask yourself if the overall result was the perfect storm of a several players having career years at the same time, or if those players had shown development to a status of being among the best in the league. Rodgers, Nelson and Bulaga come quickly to mind.

Rodgers - I think we all expected a lesser performance in 2012. 2011 will be hard to duplicate.

Nelson & Bulaga were both young enough and talented enough for the hope to be that we were seeing their evolution as players in 2011, especially with Nelson who had seemed to show steady improvement until then. Bulaga particularly has shown an alarming regression in 2012. Just two months ago he was being called one of the best RTs in the league. Both look very ordinary this year.

Throw in the change at center, injuries to Jennings, continued regression from Finley, a change at RB whether an improvement or not, and significant change in coaching assignments and it is really very different from 2011. A vastly different offensive outcome is not completely surprising until all of the changes are absorbed.

[George Cumby]

Sure, but in 2011 you had a number of people outplay their previous bests by a wide margin, and you had to ask yourself if the overall result was the perfect storm of a several players having career years at the same time, or if those players had shown development to a status of being among the best in the league. Rodgers, Nelson and Bulaga come quickly to mind.

Rodgers - I think we all expected a lesser performance in 2012. 2011 will be hard to duplicate.

Nelson & Bulaga were both young enough and talented enough for the hope to be that we were seeing their evolution as players in 2011, especially with Nelson who had seemed to show steady improvement until then. Bulaga particularly has shown an alarming regression in 2012. Just two months ago he was being called one of the best RTs in the league. Both look very ordinary this year.

Throw in the change at center, injuries to Jennings, continued regression from Finley, a change at RB whether an improvement or not, and significant change in coaching assignments and it is really very different from 2011. A vastly different offensive outcome is not completely surprising until all of the changes are absorbed.

This is the factor which I think has the greatest bearing on the O's performance but was in denial about during the off-season. I blithely thought that the O was going to continue to hum, not at the 2011 level, but hum nonetheless. How many coaches have to learn new jobs this season.

I, for one, was foolish to think the team was going to perform at a high level after so much coaching turnover...........

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wish there was a way of seeing how many people have you on ignore. :lol:

Where do I split this thread so I can put all the crap some wheres else?

The issue you should focus on is the censor who responded to wishes of a mob rather than follow guidelines.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Symbols, images, films, etc. CAN be speech, they are not automatically protected speech or even speech generally. YOU described the film in your use of it as "just a prop" in your "parody" of Zool and others. If it was just a prop, it was not your "speech", so what are you bitching about if some wanted your prop removed?.

Images and symbols are speech, of course. I'm surprised that you are arguing this point. If the image was conveying a message just like words.

Demanding that something be removed is intolerance. Now, every community has a right to set their limits and guidelines. But a community that won't stand by the guidelines when they are upset is intolerant.


When did I say the Seinfeld parody was harmless? I can understand it being offensive to some.
I don't recall Kiwon declaring that any reference to the assassination is in poor taste.
Up to your old tricks again, I see. When backed into a corner you simply make up shit about others, then "refute" it. What a weakass approach to discussion.?.
You're squirming out of your position. You said the Seinfeld parody was just fine, that all would have a good chuckle if I had constructed my joke in that manner. Re-read your post. You didn't use the word "harmless", but that was your message. I agree that my joke was a failure, badly constructed and offensive.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Where is the "ignore" button, anyway?

Just hang-in there a little longer, George.

I totally understand why you and others were upset by my post. The problem for me was when the post was removed by the censor.

Every community has a right to its standards. To me, it's very important that free speech be respected within the bounds of those standards.

[pbmax]

I wonder why Nelson is having such a struggle this year, Jennings or no. When Jennings was the Y (Wide Receiver) and Nelson the X (Split End), he had to line up on the LOS. Which means in mulitple instances, he had to face pressure coverage. He couldn't line up with a buffer and use the space to avoid a jam.

As Y he should have more tools available to escape the jam. He might face a higher caliber of CB if Jennings is out. I would buy that but he seemed as off when Jennings was available. There has been a wide variety of defensive talent opposing the Packers, so he should have been able to abuse someone. The Bears don't pressure the WRs on every down.

I think all of these things might be holding Nelson up, but I think it all starts with the LOS and Rodgers trust/non-trust in his line.

[packer4life]

Jason Laconforma tweeting that Raji is out tonight. Foster and company are going to control TOP. If Rodgers starts slow with some quick 3 and outs as has been the case this year, we may have another game of 85 plays against our defense. I'm going to start drinking now...

[pbmax]

Pickett at nose is not a bad thing versus a running team. They will miss Raji's pass rush. Of all the hot teams the Texans and 49ers are the teams I would want to have to start Pickett over Raji against.

[LegandofthePack15]

I understand that I am a newbie so my opinion doesn't mean much. But I didn't find Harlan's clip offensive and he has made a valid argument. :-)

[mraynrand]

I understand that I am a newbie so my opinion doesn't mean much. But I didn't find Harlan's clip offensive and he has made a valid argument. :-)

I don't know about the valid argument part, since it's a private forum of another - Madtown - Harlan has only the rights Madtown chooses to allow. But, as a purveyor of incessant crap - including inane videos and bad photoshopping - I fully realize that the best response to bilge you don't like is to just ignore it and move on.

[MadtownPacker]

I understand that I am a newbie so my opinion doesn't mean much. But I didn't find Harlan's clip offensive and he has made a valid argument. :-)
I suggest you not accept any candy from Harlan.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I suggest you not accept any candy from Harlan.

I suggest you be nice to my only friend, or I will kick your candy ass.


But isn't a GIF of blood spatter (used with whatever intention), simply and in of itself off topic enough that it can be removed from the Packer board (not the others) with no other questions asked?

Its already tangential (commenting on others commenting about the physics of a collision), adds nothing substantive to the thread and is grotesque.
The intention of that blood splatter makes all the difference. IF it is making a point about the conversation, it is on topic.

I made a mistake in choosing that particular .gif, I was only trying to evoke a memory of Kennedy assasination. I was really interested in all the analytical talk surrounding it, and so I included that text. Evidently that .gif was too graphic and spoiled any hope for the joke. IT was the first .gif that came up on google.

I do think you exagerate the "grotesque" part, since it was a small gif of a blury distant shot for Christ's sake. But that is in the eye of the beholder.

[MadtownPacker]

I suggest you be nice to my only friend, or I will kick your candy ass.
Let me guess, you want to "rassle"? I bet you do you sick freak.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't know about the valid argument part, since it's a private forum of another - Madtown - Harlan has only the rights Madtown chooses to allow. But, as a purveyor of incessant crap - including inane videos and bad photoshopping - I fully realize that the best response to bilge you don't like is to just ignore it and move on.

I never questioned the perogative of Madtown to have rules and standards, that is a straw man that keeps popping up.

You have greater free speech if standards are enforced uniformly, rather than heat-of-the-moment response. I prefer greater free speech.

[Patler]

Pickett at nose is not a bad thing versus a running team. They will miss Raji's pass rush. Of all the hot teams the Texans and 49ers are the teams I would want to have to start Pickett over Raji against.

I wonder if they can locate Howard Green in time for tonight's game? :-) :-)

[mraynrand]

I never questioned the perogative of Madtown to have rules and standards, that is a straw man that keeps popping up.

You have greater free speech if standards are enforced uniformly, rather than heat-of-the-moment response. I prefer greater free speech.

It's the only issue, whether Madtown has standards or not, your free speech here is limited by his whims. In other words, you really have no free speech here, as you seem to imagine it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's the only issue, whether Madtown has standards or not, your free speech here is limited by his whims. In other words, you really have no free speech here, as you seem to imagine it.

So free speech here is decided by the chemical surges in that nut job's head? That does sound scary. Free Speech is always a relative term, here, there and everywhere. In fact I would say the limits of free speech at packerrats is well understood, and therefore I would call this a relatively relaxed and free forum. I think what happened in this particular cock-up is that officer Zool jumped the gun and deleted a post to teach me a lesson - he is part of the robust club that finds me distasteful.

[ND72]

I understand that I am a newbie so my opinion doesn't mean much. But I didn't find Harlan's clip offensive and he has made a valid argument. :-)

You're right, you're opinion doesn't mean much. :-). I have, what, 3,500+ posts, and neither does mine....WELCOME!

[wist43]

But I didn't find Harlan's clip offensive and he has made a valid argument. :-)

Don't ever say that again!!

[mraynrand]

It is late Sunday night and I am not facing fact

[King Friday]

The only fact I'm seeing is that the AFC sucks monkey balls.

[pbmax]

I am facing Nortwest.

[HowardRoark]

But, as a purveyor of incessant crap -.

New job?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xcNHKZwD-54/S9ByJ_r4dnI/AAAAAAAAAqk/VuuraHdZBZc/s1600/69675000.jpg

[Kiwon]

A-Rod's 6 TDs should raise spirits some.

[mraynrand]

New job?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xcNHKZwD-54/S9ByJ_r4dnI/AAAAAAAAAqk/VuuraHdZBZc/s1600/69675000.jpg


If I could sell my bullshit, I'd be a millionaire

[ThunderDan]

If you watch the replay closely Luck's head actual goes toward Perry at the hit. The physics of which dictate that Perry didn't hit the QB's head.

From Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback Column:

7. I think you can chase your tail with a lot of these borderline hits that get defensive players flagged and fined, particularly for hits on the quarterback. But I have to comment on the hit on Andrew Luck that got Green Bay linebacker Nick Perry a 15-yard penalty and a $15,000 fine. Perry got the penalty and fine because he hit Luck with his helmet first on his body, and a defender can't contact a quarterback with the helmet first.

A terrible rule in the first place, because a tackler keeping his head up and hitting a ballcarrier below the shoulders is the textbook way to tackle; for a defender to have to consciously keep his head to the side of a quarterback's torso is unreasonable.

The NFL told Perry he led with the crown of his helmet, but I've watched this play over and over, and he didn't lead with the crown of the helmet -- he had his head straight-up, his facemask contacting Luck first. There are dangerous plays in football, and the league is smart to be vigilant about getting rid of them. This, however, should not be considered a dangerous play, but rather one with the defender tackling the quarterback the way he should.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/10/15/week-6/index.html#ixzz29OMQsgM7

[mraynrand]

So free speech here is decided by the chemical surges in that nut job's head? That does sound scary. Free Speech is always a relative term, here, there and everywhere. In fact I would say the limits of free speech at packerrats is well understood, and therefore I would call this a relatively relaxed and free forum. I think what happened in this particular cock-up is that officer Zool jumped the gun and deleted a post to teach me a lesson - he is part of the robust club that finds me distasteful.

In the football forum, I would suggest that the video clip was one of very few distasteful posts

[Zool]

So free speech here is decided by the chemical surges in that nut job's head? That does sound scary. Free Speech is always a relative term, here, there and everywhere. In fact I would say the limits of free speech at packerrats is well understood, and therefore I would call this a relatively relaxed and free forum. I think what happened in this particular cock-up is that officer Zool jumped the gun and deleted a post to teach me a lesson - he is part of the robust club that finds me distasteful.

Sometimes, your wrongness is stunning even to me after all these years.

I was reacting to multiple requests to remove the post. If it were anywhere but in the Packer room it would have stayed. I wasn't permanently deleted in case someone decided I over-reacted. Also, I don't think I would ever do something to teach you a lesson. That would indicate you have the ability to learn about consequences for actions. I don't give you that much credit.

[Noodle]

From Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback Column:

A terrible rule in the first place, because a tackler keeping his head up and hitting a ballcarrier below the shoulders is the textbook way to tackle; for a defender to have to consciously keep his head to the side of a quarterback's torso is unreasonable.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/10/15/week-6/index.html#ixzz29OMQsgM7

This is the point. I think we were all taught to lead with our eyes through the ballcarrier's chest, with your facemask and chest making near simultaneous contact. Not so, anymore, at least in regard to hits on the quarterback. It will need to be shoulderpad first, almost as if you were playing without a facemask to protect yourself. That's just the way it is.

And while I didn't agree with the call, I can certainly see why it was made, because in real time, it does look like Luck's head snaps back just as Perry's head is up near said head, so I can see the ref thinking cause and effect there.

[sharpe1027]

I think what happened in this particular cock-up is that officer Zool jumped the gun and deleted a post to teach me a lesson - he is part of the robust club that finds me distasteful.

I think what happened is that you made up a half-baked theory about Zool's intentions because you fear that twig carrying zombie wallabies will steal your luck charms while you sleep.

[mraynrand]

I think what happened is that you made up a half-baked theory about Zool's intentions because you fear that twig carrying zombie wallabies will steal your luck charms while you sleep.

No Aussie rodents be *uckin' wit my charms!!

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Holidays/St%20Patricks%20Day/StPatricksDayLeprechaunLuckyCharms.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sometimes, your wrongness is stunning even to me after all these years.

I was reacting to multiple requests to remove the post. If it were anywhere but in the Packer room it would have stayed. I wasn't permanently deleted in case someone decided I over-reacted. Also, I don't think I would ever do something to teach you a lesson. That would indicate you have the ability to learn about consequences for actions. I don't give you that much credit.

If you were the censor at youtube, and you got emails from angry fundamentalists demanding that you take down "The innocence of Muslims", would you just do it?

There was no policy or justification for removing that .gif beyond taking the easy way out - giving-in to intolerance. The image didn't violate any policies. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the images of the Kennedy assasination that have been shown on TV a thousand times - is the forum for elementary school children?

I am not knocking anybody who was offended - maybe people don't want to see ugly pictures in a football forum, I'm sorry I cbose it. But demanding censorship of something just because you don't like it stinks. Just speak your mind and be done with it.

[KYPack]

If you were the censor at youtube, and you got emails from angry fundamentalists demanding that you take down "The innocence of Muslims", would you just do it?

There was no policy or justification for removing that .gif beyond taking the easy way out - giving-in to intolerance. The image didn't violate any policies. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the images of the Kennedy assasination that have been shown on TV a thousand times - is the forum for elementary school children?

I am not knocking anybody who was offended - maybe people don't want to see ugly pictures in a football forum, I'm sorry I cbose it. But demanding censorship of something just because you don't like it stinks. Just speak your mind and be done with it.

Harlan.

Fuck it.

What is this, the 5000th iteration of this shit?

[George Cumby]

If you were the censor at youtube, and you got emails from angry fundamentalists demanding that you take down "The innocence of Muslims", would you just do it?

There was no policy or justification for removing that .gif beyond taking the easy way out - giving-in to intolerance. The image didn't violate any policies. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the images of the Kennedy assasination that have been shown on TV a thousand times - is the forum for elementary school children?

I am not knocking anybody who was offended - maybe people don't want to see ugly pictures in a football forum, I'm sorry I cbose it. But demanding censorship of something just because you don't like it stinks. Just speak your mind and be done with it.

Harlan,

In all sincerity, I appreciate your apology and the spirit in which it is offered.

I beg your forebearance, but in my comment when I detracted rep points from you (which I did as I was drinking my morning coffee, therefore my recollection is a bit off), I do believe I used "please" or "thank you". That's not a demand. Nor did I ask Zool or Madtown to remove the .gif.

"Values" is another term for a moral code shared by a group of people. Given the response to the .gif in question, I think that the group has spoken. And what the group has said is that that particular video crossed the boundary of what is acceptable here. i.e.: A violation of the shared moral code.

I, for one, have chosen this particular tribe to socialize with because the discussion is so robust and open. I have left other forums because I posted stuff that although run-of-the-mill here, was unacceptable and deleted.

It would be nice if we could all move on from this. Clearly, as others are still engaging you, you have not been kicked out of the Tribe. That alone tells you how truly open this particular society is. Thanks for reading.

Zool:

Thank you for deleting the post. I believe that was the only correct course of action.

[RashanGary]

Outside of last year, where the offense was amazing from day 1, this is typical MM/AR stuff. Lots of sacks early, drives sputter. . . . . They tend to pull their heads out of their asses when they're backs are against the wall.

It's hard to get a read on the defense. There are some flashes from Worthy, Hayward and McMillan. It would be nice to see the zone defense come together since we need some element of disguise as to what we're doing. Unfortunately, outside of Hayward, it doesn't seem like our CB's are cut out for zone coverage. Williams looks lost playing off the ball. Shields even more-so.

I don't see the defense becoming much more than average. It's going to be tough to win games in the playoffs. That group just doesn't seem to fit right. There are some excellent players, just something is missing in how it comes together.

[Iron Mike]

The only fact I'm seeing is that the AFC sucks monkey balls.

I know, right?? Shocker.....

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/hawkshock.gif

[LegandofthePack15]

If you were the censor at youtube, and you got emails from angry fundamentalists demanding that you take down "The innocence of Muslims", would you just do it?

There was no policy or justification for removing that .gif beyond taking the easy way out - giving-in to intolerance. The image didn't violate any policies. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the images of the Kennedy assasination that have been shown on TV a thousand times - is the forum for elementary school children?

I am not knocking anybody who was offended - maybe people don't want to see ugly pictures in a football forum, I'm sorry I cbose it. But demanding censorship of something just because you don't like it stinks. Just speak your mind and be done with it.

Agreed, especially the bold part.

[LegandofthePack15]

I know, right?? Shocker.....

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/hawkshock.gif

WTF? Hawk is doing some kind of rapper hand signal. I find rap music extremely offensive. I mean all rappers do is sing about murder and drugs and women being bitches. Take it down. :lol:

[mraynrand]

If you were the censor at youtube, and you got emails from angry fundamentalists demanding that you take down "The innocence of Muslims", would you just do it?

There was no policy or justification for removing that .gif beyond taking the easy way out - giving-in to intolerance. The image didn't violate any policies. There is nothing wildly inappropriate about the images of the Kennedy assasination that have been shown on TV a thousand times - is the forum for elementary school children?

I am not knocking anybody who was offended - maybe people don't want to see ugly pictures in a football forum, I'm sorry I cbose it. But demanding censorship of something just because you don't like it stinks. Just speak your mind and be done with it.

Youtube and Packerrats can essentially do what they want, and it's tough titties for you and everyone else. Somehow, I suspect you will survive the injustice you've been dealt. You want to post snuff videos with impunity? Start your own website.

[mraynrand]

WTF? Hawk is doing some kind of rapper hand signal. I find rap music extremely offensive. I mean all rappers do is sing about murder and drugs and women being bitches. Take it down. :lol:

What about HOs and Niggas? They 'sing' about that too. BTW, that damn Hawk gif is slowing my computer to a crawl.

[LegandofthePack15]

What about HOs and Niggas? They 'sing' about that too. BTW, that damn Hawk gif is slowing my computer to a crawl.

Yep. :mrgreen:

[pbmax]

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?24624-The-GIF-That-Keeps-On-Giving

See censorship post at link above in Romper Room. I think we can try to put this thread back on topic. If we can remember what it was.

[mraynrand]

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?24624-The-GIF-That-Keeps-On-Giving

See censorship post at link above in Romper Room. I think we can try to put this thread back on topic. If we can remember what it was.

It's about facing fact. I refuse to face fact.

[George Cumby]

I think we can try to put this thread back on topic. If we can remember what it was.

Fact to be faced:

Packers are 3-3 with the toughest part of the schedule behind them.

[pbmax]

Excellent. I have a question. One of ND's complaints was about the O line. They did a reasonable job versus a good front seven in Houston esp. with pass protection. Rodgers was sacked twice and he ran into JJ Watt's second sack. I watched Saturday and Newhouse mainly. While Newhouse occasionally got a little loose with his set and hands on his DE, Saturday seemed solid and Rodgers called out the protection only on a few occasions at it was their best game outside of the New Orleans game.

Did anyone see this differently? And how did Bulaga look?

[Joemailman]

Fact: Packers were 3-3 after 6 games in 2010.

Pact: Packers have faced 4 of the top 6 ranked defenses in the NFL so far.

Fact: Their next opponent is #7.

[denverYooper]

Fact to be faced:

Packers are 3-3 with the toughest part of the schedule behind them.

I think the Rams game will still be pretty tough. Hope they don't take that one off.

[pbmax]

Fact: Packers were 3-3 after 6 games in 2010.

Pact: Packers have faced 4 of the top 6 ranked defenses in the NFL so far.

Fact: Their next opponent is #7.

7th opponent AND seventh ranked D? Might need some voodoo for this road game.

[MadtownPacker]

Dont worry I got a chicken that will be choked 7 times before the Sunday. This will please the football Gods...

http://im41.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/choke-chicken.jpg

[MadtownPacker]

Sometimes, your wrongness is stunning even to me after all these years.

I was reacting to multiple requests to remove the post. If it were anywhere but in the Packer room it would have stayed. I wasn't permanently deleted in case someone decided I over-reacted. Also, I don't think I would ever do something to teach you a lesson. That would indicate you have the ability to learn about consequences for actions. I don't give you that much credit.Dammit!! I shoulda known this would happen when I brought in moderators from the Lingerie forum!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Youtube and Packerrats can essentially do what they want, and it's tough titties for you and everyone else..

Same strawman argument. I never disputed that websites can do what they want. Youtube chooses to set policies that balance decency standards with free speech, and they follow those standards.


Somehow, I suspect you will survive the injustice you've been dealt. You want to post snuff videos with impunity? Start your own website.

I did not post a snuff video. I post a .gif of the kennedy assasination, the Zapruder frames that have been seen by all hundreds of times. The purpose was as a prop for a joke related to the football topic. Nothing I did was against the policies of this website, AFAIK.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harlan.

Fuck it.

What is this, the 5000th iteration of this shit?

Yes, same old stump speech. Yet ....... still no answers.

Maybe Officer Zool thought he was acting within the guidelines of this website. Maybe the guideline is that any image in the Packer section that causes anyone to complain should be removed. Well, if that is the rule, then the issue really is not recreational censorship. The problem is some reflexively tight sphincter muscles among the townfolk.

Why do people demand that an image be removed? To protect the children? To prevent outbreak of "snuff films"? I would say they want to validate their feelings, get officially sanction that they are OK and the other person is not.

[Joemailman]

Yes, same old stump speech. Yet ....... still no answers.



Enough. Take this conversation to the RR.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"Values" is another term for a moral code shared by a group of people. Given the response to the .gif in question, I think that the group has spoken. And what the group has said is that that particular video crossed the boundary of what is acceptable here. i.e.: A violation of the shared moral code.

Perhaps so. It could be that the group is rather intolerant, identical to the Muslims demanding censorship because they were offended.

[sharpe1027]

I would say HH wants to validate his feelings, get officially sanction that he is OK and the other person is not.

Fixed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Enough. Take this conversation to the RR.

Don't blame me - I'm just responding to people who won't let it go.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Fixed.

Hardly. I am not expecting any sanction or validation. I'm just standing up for principle.

[MadtownPacker]

It could be that the group is rather intolerantA bunch of Whiteys from WI? I cant imagine it! :lol:

There is a thread in the RR waiting for all your wonderful replies. Join us...

[MadtownPacker]

Hardly. I am not expecting any sanction or validation. I'm just standing up for principle.

Go on wit yo bad self!!!

http://www.chadhowsefitness.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/william-wallace-death.jpg

[mmmdk]

Perhaps so. It could be that the group is rather intolerant, identical to the Muslims demanding censorship because they were offended.

You're too kind; only 'pretty intolerant'!? Take no heed from putrid zealots and their conjectures of the nonexistent.

[sharpe1027]

Hardly. I am not expecting any sanction or validation. I'm just standing up for principle.

It hardly seems fair that you can make assumptions about other people's motives, but others cannot make assumptions about yours. I stand by my unfounded accusation and refuse to accept your self-serving explanation of motives.

[mraynrand]

Another Sunday, another game comes and goes, yet I still cannot face fact. Is that wrong?

[Joemailman]

Another Sunday, another game comes and goes, yet I still cannot face fact. Is that wrong?

Just 2 more games and then maybe you can get it together during the bye week.

[denverYooper]

Fact: Their first half schedule has been brutal.

[MJZiggy]

Fact: Their first half schedule has been brutal.

Fact: The won two of those losses.

[HowardRoark]

I take no heed from (shouldn't this be "of") putrid zealots and their conjectures of the nonexistent.

[pbmax]

Fact: Facing Soutwest right now.

Also hoping for a Reggie White family visit to Derek Sherrod to heal that leg.

[mraynrand]

It is the Bye week, and even with all the injuries, I still cannot face fact.

[MJZiggy]

It is the Bye week, and even with all the injuries, I still cannot face fact.

Try another fact?

[denverYooper]

Try another fact?

There is only one.

[mraynrand]

I am prepared to face fact. Packers are good enough to make playoffs and perhaps win a wildcard game, and they may even play better in a Divisional round game versus the Niners or Giants. But they are not god enough to win. They will not be in the NFC Championship or the Superbowl this year, even if they return to 'full strength' and get back all the injured players possible. Time to face fact.

[denverYooper]

I am prepared to face fact. Packers are good enough to make playoffs and perhaps win a wildcard game, and they may even play better in a Divisional round game versus the Niners or Giants. But they are not god enough to win. They will not be in the NFC Championship or the Superbowl this year, even if they return to 'full strength' and get back all the injured players possible. Time to face fact.

Time to start thinking about the draft.

[LegandofthePack15]

Time to start thinking about the draft.

Thompson should trade up into the top 10 to draft an elite RB.

[OS PA]

Time to face the fact that we're missing half of our team to injuries. Again.

Bulaga, Jennings, Benson.
Matthews, Shields, Woodson, Perry, Bishop

[PA Pack Fan]

Time to face the fact that we're missing half of our team to injuries. Again.

Bulaga, Jennings, Benson.
Matthews, Shields, Woodson, Perry, Bishop
Time to face the fact, that even with those guys in, we lose. We are a mediocre team at best, and every game i watch i have less confidence in Rodgers.

[pbmax]

Time to face the fact, that even with those guys in, we lose. We are a mediocre team at best, and every game i watch i have less confidence in Rodgers.

That is not fact.

But perhaps fact is that the Packers, unless Barclay is the answer, perhaps need to develop another tackle.

[run pMc]

perhaps need to develop another tackle

Will TT face fact and realize the OLine is leaky? Will he draft 4 Tackles and have Campen turn them into Guards? Will he face fact that Saturday is well past his prime?

Stay tuned...more fact to face.

[mmmdk]

I think the OL and just plain Stubbyness are the main culprits here. The former is a HUGE problem as offensive lines are not built over night; it's become TTs achilles heel. Stubby has coached, made better gameplans/calls and adjusted better in the SB year and then ran out of gas in november 2011. The only question that remains is whether he's a one trick pony or a coach that can adjust and has the drive to get better/win more titles...I think Stubby is a one trick pony! Sorry! Bill Billichick/last two Steelers head coaches would be winning numerous SBs with a QB like Aaron Rodgers. Other great head coaches would too!

The latter is a gut feeling; the OL troubles are all too real facts! Btw, I haven't even touched the D 'cos the talent is there but I don't trust Capers no more!

[denverYooper]

Thompson should trade up into the top 10 to draft an elite RB.

I'm starting to come around to the idea.

[denverYooper]

I think the OL and just plain Stubbyness are the main culprits here. The former is a HUGE problem as offensive lines are not built over night; it's become TTs achilles heel. Stubby has coached, made better gameplans/calls and adjusted better in the SB year and then ran out of gas in november 2011. The only question that remains is whether he's a one trick pony or a coach that can adjust and has the drive to get better/win more titles...I think Stubby is a one trick pony! Sorry! Bill Billichick/last two Steelers head coaches would be winning numerous SBs with a QB like Aaron Rodgers. Other great head coaches would too!

The latter is a gut feeling; the OL troubles are all too real facts! Btw, I haven't even touched the D 'cos the talent is there but I don't trust Capers no more!

It's pretty clear at this point that M3 needs to put together a different gameplan (or at least a contingency plan) for teams with fast/long/athletic DL, a la the Giants, Seahawks. They can deal with certain kinds of pressure (like the Lions' slower thicker DL) but the long or quick DEs like the Giants have are hell right now, especially with Bulaga out.

The other problem is that, for whatever reason, blitzing Rodgers seem more successful this year in getting to 12. Could be that this is where he really misses Jennings.

[mmmdk]

It's pretty clear at this point that M3 needs to put together a different gameplan (or at least a contingency plan) for teams with fast/long/athletic DL, a la the Giants, Seahawks. They can deal with certain kinds of pressure (like the Lions' slower thicker DL) but the long or quick DEs like the Giants have are hell right now, especially with Bulaga out.

The other problem is that, for whatever reason, blitzing Rodgers seem more successful this year in getting to 12. Could be that this is where he really misses Jennings.

Sharp, as always! :tup:

[George Cumby]

Thompson should trade up into the top 10 to draft an elite RB.

Agree with the trade up, but wrong position. A turnkey OL or two is what is needed.

[pbmax]

I just don't know how Newhouse can hold up admirably versus Freeney (who is older than dirt I guess) and not Umenyiora. I also hate that I now know how to spell his last name.

Maybe Newhouse has good feet but is a waist-bender? :lol:
'Seriously, even the two times he stymied 72's inside spin move, he only got on arm in front of him and was essentially tacking him to prevent movement.