Packers defenders "lazy" ????

[Patler]

I posted the link to this article in another thread, but I thought it might merit it's own thread for discussion purposes:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-doesnt-get-an-a-for-effort-e976tjn-174061711.html

We have often commented in here about an apparent lack of hustle, intensity, whatever on defense; contrasting the Packers one or two guys in on a tackle to the gang tackling seen from the leagues better defenses. This article makes a player by player analysis of effort/hustle on defense.

[George Cumby]

I am so-so on McGinn, but he's calling it like he sees it (actually how the fans see it, too, it would seem). I agree, no fire on this team. Disturbing.

[AtlPackFan]

Not a McGinn fan but I agree wholeheartedly with this article

[mission]

It'd be nice Capers came down on the sideline and ran around and yelled at guys and shit

[pbmax]

This kind of article drives me nuts. By what measure is the Packers effort middle of the road? Do scouts actually watch the game tape with the celebrations still in the cut ups? This is simply a baseball article about David Eckstein substituting effort for gritty and Raji for Eckstein.

Outside of the first few plays, emotion and intensity is mostly a byproduct of results and success. Rah rah looks great in highlight reels of winning team, its not a building block of success. A player who takes plays off would be just as likely to celebrate someone else's success as the try hard guys.

I put more credence into wist's undersized front explanation for the play of the defense than this.

[LegandofthePack15]

Whether you agree or disagree with McGinn, there's no denying that he's the best Packer beat writer out there.

Disagreed with McGinn's take on C-Wood. The guy does everything every game. Blitz, play the run, cover. Deserves a little breather away from the ball once in a while.

Agreed with:

Nick Barnett...he played fast on Sundays and tried to punish the opponent.

Cullen Jenkins...could fly into a rage on the field at a moment's notice and ignite an entire defense.

Nick Collins always did have tremendous range and never lost his willingness to form tackle and chase.

[pbmax]

Cullen Jenkins...could fly into a rage on the field at a moment's notice and ignite an entire defense.

First, the item about Collins has to be mostly about talent and secondarily about emotion.

Second, Worthy is far more emotional than Jenkins on the field. That seems a win for the younger players if emotion is the key to being more than mediocre.

[mraynrand]

Enthusiasm usually follows confidence born of success. You don't put the cart before the horse, and you don't put self-esteem before achievement. Just play better.

[red]

good article

[Rutnstrut]

If the rest of the Packer D played with the fire that Hawk is this year, the D would be better. Most of the D seems to give a half assed effort at best.

[wist43]

I would say they are demoralized - that will drain the spunk out of anyone in a hurry.

I think they know the game plans are junk, and the coaching staff, i.e. Capers, won't put them in alignments to be successful. When you have 3rd and 17, and you know the moron up in the booth is going to call for a 3 man rush, and loose zone coverage... you know full well the offense has a good chance of picking up the 1st down - it's an easy pitch and catch when you don't cover anyone.

Sun tsu - it starts at the top. Capers is the villain here. I don't put any blame on any of the players b/c they are not being put in positions to be successful. Until Capers is fired, I give all the players a pass.

[Rutnstrut]

I would say they are demoralized - that will drain the spunk out of anyone in a hurry.

I think they know the game plans are junk, and the coaching staff, i.e. Capers, won't put them in alignments to be successful. When you have 3rd and 17, and you know the moron up in the booth is going to call for a 3 man rush, and loose zone coverage... you know full well the offense has a good chance of picking up the 1st down - it's an easy pitch and catch when you don't cover anyone.

Sun tsu - it starts at the top. Capers is the villain here. I don't put any blame on any of the players b/c they are not being put in positions to be successful. Until Capers is fired, I give all the players a pass.

Very good point, Capers is a dumbass.

[pbmax]

The players must all have agreed to take alternate plays off tonight.

[George Cumby]

Not tonite.

[pbmax]

I enjoyed JJ Watt's infectious enthusiasm, his motor, his atta boys and slaps on the behinds of his teammates. I am sure it inspired them have such close coverage on all the pass completions Rodgers and the WRs had tonight.

[esoxx]

Sounds like a racist thread title.

[sharpe1027]

The NFL's official statistics show that this team is ranked 16.87th in intensity (only averaging 2.3 celebration dances per game) and 17.23323rd in hustle (averaging 3.56 defenders/play taking off). That's not good enough. They should have at least 5 celebration dances per game and closer to 2.3 defenders taking a play off.

I'd prefer more butt-slapping, chest-thumping, and reckless forays in to the opponent's backfield over last-nights boring, disciplined, gap-control defense.

[wist43]

I put last night on the Texans... Capers crowded the line more than he has in the last 43 years, but still that's no excuse for the Texans not to be able to adjust. Even bad offensive teams usually roll up 5,000 yards against Capers coached defenses.

I guess I have to give the defense some credit - the Texans never did get much going on offense. Still, I hate Capers and want him gone... he's as likely to come out next week and return to 2 man rushes and sloppy zones - it's who he is.

Better pick up Sam Bradford off the waiver wire in fantasy ;)

[George Cumby]

The NFL's official statistics show that this team is ranked 16.87th in intensity (only averaging 2.3 celebration dances per game) and 17.23323rd in hustle (averaging 3.56 defenders/play taking off). That's not good enough. They should have at least 5 celebration dances per game and closer to 2.3 defenders taking a play off.

I'd prefer more butt-slapping, chest-thumping, and reckless forays in to the opponent's backfield over last-nights boring, disciplined, gap-control defense.


repped

[George Cumby]

I put last night on the Texans... Capers crowded the line more than he has in the last 43 years, but still that's no excuse for the Texans not to be able to adjust. Even bad offensive teams usually roll up 5,000 yards against Capers coached defenses.

I guess I have to give the defense some credit - the Texans never did get much going on offense. Still, I hate Capers and want him gone... he's as likely to come out next week and return to 2 man rushes and sloppy zones - it's who he is.

Better pick up Sam Bradford off the waiver wire in fantasy ;)

Are you EVER satisfied? 42-17 and still no love for the Pack. What WOULD make you happy, other than seeing Dom exiled to Siberia?

[rbaloha1]

The article was somewhat true.

Agree the assessment about #21 and #50 are wrong. #50 is finally utilizing speed and leaving the ground to make plays. That goal line hit on Foster was one of #50's best hit ever.

[mraynrand]

I put last night on the Texans... Capers crowded the line more than he has in the last 43 years, but still that's no excuse for the Texans not to be able to adjust. Even bad offensive teams usually roll up 5,000 yards against Capers coached defenses.

I guess I have to give the defense some credit - the Texans never did get much going on offense. Still, I hate Capers and want him gone... he's as likely to come out next week and return to 2 man rushes and sloppy zones - it's who he is.

Better pick up Sam Bradford off the waiver wire in fantasy ;)

http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/56/1290/300/crusty-weekly-cover.jpg

[pbmax]

I'll just note here that some of the crowding of the LOS was done by the nickel back/safety from a 2-4 alignment (seven man box) that was previously deemed not beefy enough.

[wist43]

I'll just note here that some of the crowding of the LOS was done by the nickel back/safety from a 2-4 alignment (seven man box) that was previously deemed not beefy enough.

Yeah, I noticed that... Capers got away with it against the Texans - I guess they weren't expecting it, and didn't have an answer. Afterall, why would an opponent expect Dom to have more than 2 or 3 defenders anywhere near the LOS??

Capers departed from his script quite a bit in this game... but kept to his small ball philosophy - I think he has an 11 man weight limit that he won't exceed ;)

We play some really weak offenses in the next few weeks - Dom will probably come away looking like he knows what he's doing... which is unfortunate. We maybe could have gotten some momentum going to get his ass fired if we'd laid an egg last night... in the long run that would have been a better thing.

Capers should have his citizenship revoked, and his spray painted hair should be against the law.

[wist43]

Are you EVER satisfied? 42-17 and still no love for the Pack. What WOULD make you happy, other than seeing Dom exiled to Siberia?

Well, lol... I just want his citizenship revoked - Siberia?? That's kinda harsh don't ya think?? :)

[denverYooper]

First, the item about Collins has to be mostly about talent and secondarily about emotion.

Second, Worthy is far more emotional than Jenkins on the field. That seems a win for the younger players if emotion is the key to being more than mediocre.

Jenkins hasn't done much with the Eagles this year.

[sharpe1027]

why would an opponent expect Dom to have more than 2 or 3 defenders anywhere near the LOS??


They might expect it because he has a long history of putting a lot of guys at the LOS. Of course, they might not expect it if they generalized his tendencies based upon observations of only a few plays in a couple recent games.

[wist43]

They might expect it because he has a long history of putting a lot of guys at the LOS. Of course, they might not expect it if they generalized his tendencies based upon observations of only a few plays in a couple recent games.

Capers will blitz, even though when he crowds the line most of the time I know he's bluffing. What Capers will do more often than blitz is play weak fronts and sloppy zones. He did it for 22 straight games going back to last year. It's who he is - it's what he wants to do... keep everything in front of you mentality. He departed from the script last night... he does that from time to time.

He's just as likely to come back next week and give up 600 yards to Sam Bradford and the Rams.

[LEWCWA]

I'm sorry wist, but 3 man rush on third and long is a staple employed by most if not all teams. It is highley effective in stopping the other team from reaching the LTG for a first down. It is not effective in limiting a positive play. The players have been poor in their execution of this D, for the better part of a year. This D forces underneath passes and a tackle b4 picking up the first down, it also forces int's if the QB tries to throw the ball down field. I'm sorry but the lack of success has everything to do with player execution, not Capers playing a D utilized by all teams in the league!

[sharpe1027]

Capers will blitz, even though when he crowds the line most of the time I know he's bluffing. What Capers will do more often than blitz is play weak fronts and sloppy zones. He did it for 22 straight games going back to last year. It's who he is - it's what he wants to do... keep everything in front of you mentality. He departed from the script last night... he does that from time to time.

He's just as likely to come back next week and give up 600 yards to Sam Bradford and the Rams.

I must have misread your post. I thought you were discussing crowding the LOS with players, but it seems you meant blitzing. It didn't seem like he blitzed any more than usual last night to my untrained eye. But, I didn't count the snaps. Did you?

IMO, this is the same script he uses when he has not respect for the opposing QB and lots of respect for the RB. He does the same thing against AP. I disagree with you conclusion that the Packers should use it against good QBs. They would get killed.

[Bossman641]

I'm sorry wist, but 3 man rush on third and long is a staple employed by most if not all teams. It is highley effective in stopping the other team from reaching the LTG for a first down. It is not effective in limiting a positive play. The players have been poor in their execution of this D, for the better part of a year. This D forces underneath passes and a tackle b4 picking up the first down, it also forces int's if the QB tries to throw the ball down field. I'm sorry but the lack of success has everything to do with player execution, not Capers playing a D utilized by all teams in the league!

+1

My biggest problem with the D is their consistency. They have plays where the coverage is sound and everybody passes off guys effectively, and then they have plays where there is no defender within 5 yards of an open receiver. That's on the players.

[Joemailman]

I was a little frustrated last night by what I thought was very soft coverage by Tramon Williams on Andre Johnson. In retrospect though, I suspect it had to with the gameplan of emphasis on stopping Foster, which meant Tramon wasn't going to have a lot of safety help. Thoughts?

[pbmax]

Much of last year was an ongoing adjustment to Tramontana's injury and inability to press plus the Collins injury and limitations of Peprah/Burnett. Justin pegged it by mid-season that he was backing off on the corners more than past years. I thought it was because he has to blitz to generate pass rush, but the team admitted much of it was due to injuries.

So I don't think Dom has been running the same coverages as last year. Have seen far more man outside than last year. The only consistent zones I see are on blitzes or 3rd and long.

[wist43]

I'm sorry wist, but 3 man rush on third and long is a staple employed by most if not all teams. It is highley effective in stopping the other team from reaching the LTG for a first down. It is not effective in limiting a positive play. The players have been poor in their execution of this D, for the better part of a year. This D forces underneath passes and a tackle b4 picking up the first down, it also forces int's if the QB tries to throw the ball down field. I'm sorry but the lack of success has everything to do with player execution, not Capers playing a D utilized by all teams in the league!

Rushing 3 is almost always completely useless - and can only be justified in the case of a zone blitz.

If you're rushing 3, you might as well be rushing none - b/c you're not likely to get any pressure at all. The QB can just sit in a rocking chair and wait for the coverage to break down... which, given enough time, coverage will always break down. The name of the game is pressure - if you generate pressure, and force the QB to get rid of the ball quickly, all you need do is make the tackle at the point of the catch, and you're off the field.

As I said when we were discussing this issue in other threads - the "prevent defense" used to be very much en vogue back in the 80's. How many times did you watch a Defensive Coordinator go into a shell, rush 3, and let the opposing teams offense waltz down the field without challenge, and kick the game winning FG or have 3 legitimate shots into the end zone from short range??

As I said, and as many analysts have said over the years, the only thing the "prevent defense" prevents is your team winning. Eventually, after watching too many teams, blow too many games, DC's caught on and finally figured out that they're better off trying to generate pressure than slowly bleed to death playing prevent. Capers never got that memo.

[pbmax]

The prevent defense is designed to make a team burn clock while keep all completions in front of it and off the sidelines. Allowing first downs is not the primary concern.

3rd and long 3 man rush is designed to offer only a pass completion in front of the sticks to the check down guy ON THIRD DOWN AND LONG. Preventing a first down is its primary concern. Executed right, there is nothing open for a first down if two men can tackle. The actual question here is not why its useless, its not, but why the Packers too often allow a long completion with an 8 man coverage.

[mraynrand]

I was a little frustrated last night by what I thought was very soft coverage by Tramon Williams on Andre Johnson. In retrospect though, I suspect it had to with the gameplan of emphasis on stopping Foster, which meant Tramon wasn't going to have a lot of safety help. Thoughts?

I was startled at what a non-factor Johnson was. Yeah, they gave that cushion, but they guessed right on play calls.

[Joemailman]

I was startled at what a non-factor Johnson was. Yeah, they gave that cushion, but they guessed right on play calls.

I think Johnson has definitely lost some speed. I was frustrated because I think they were giving him too much respect.

[wist43]

The prevent defense is designed to make a team burn clock while keep all completions in front of it and off the sidelines. Allowing first downs is not the primary concern.

3rd and long 3 man rush is designed to offer only a pass completion in front of the sticks to the check down guy ON THIRD DOWN AND LONG. Preventing a first down is its primary concern. Executed right, there is nothing open for a first down if two men can tackle. The actual question here is not why its useless, its not, but why the Packers too often allow a long completion with an 8 man coverage.

Of course I know what the intent is - as you said, why then do the Packers routinely get gashed??

It's not like there aren't other options, and from wist's handbook, defense for dummies, the first 53 options are always predicated upon aggression and dictating the offenses response. Dom is instinctually passive, I am not - I'd much prefer to rush 4 or blitz.

In a long down/distance situation, if you blitz, you as often as not force a 3 step drop and a quick throw - make the tackle and you're off the field. Of course you also put yourself in the situation of 1 on 1 coverage on the outside and that puts a lot of pressure on your corners - but that's what they're getting paid for. If you have weak CB's, sending the kitchen sink on a blitz can get you killed - but I would argue Green Bay's corners are above average in man coverage, and the risk is worth it. I'd much rather dictate the offenses response than just sit back and let them pick me apart.

I did run thru the DVR quickly last night and only spotted 4 times that Capers rushed 3.

1) 3rd and 12 - Houston ran a draw to Tate and nearly picked up the 1st down as Tate ran for 11 yds.
2) 3rd and 14 - no pressure, quick dump underneath; TE (I think) uncovered, almost made the 1st down with a gain of 13.
3) 3rd and 20 - Houston had a screen called and the back was covered. Play never developed and Schaub spiked the ball at the feet of the RB.
4) Zone blitz with Pickett (of all people) dropping, Schaub threw the ball away - don't remember for sure why; I think the play might have been designed for something short and the receiver was in too much traffic.

Capers actually did a good job in this game of disquising his fronts and showing pressure but then backing out; showing pressure and then following thru on the threat; and showing passive but then sending a delayed blitz.

This was easily Capers best game of the year. If he came out with game plans like this week in and week out, I wouldn't have much to complain about, but this game was an aberration for Capers. His preferrance is usually to play very passively up front, keep everything in front, and let the QB pick us apart.

[pbmax]

So in other words, it worked 3 times with a tweak working as well. And that is versus a team whose backs and TE are better than their wides (except Johnson, who in that case I imagine draws double coverage).

[wist43]

So in other words, it worked 3 times with a tweak working as well. And that is versus a team whose backs and TE are better than their wides (except Johnson, who in that case I imagine draws double coverage).

You know full well that as often as not it doesn't work; and on those 2 plays where we held them 1 yd short, it damn near didn't work either. They could have just as easily slipped out of the tackle and fallen forward for the 1st down.

I know you like passive, "bend but don't break" defense - that's the style of play bad defenses must employ out of necessity b/c they don't have the players to get home or challenge receivers. That's the style of play Dom prefers regardless of the talent level... Dom's your guy for sure and for certain. For me?? It's a very frustrating style of football to watch.

Last season's debacle should have been a wake up call, but it wasn't. Dom is doing the same things this year as last - Sunday's game notwithstanding. Dollars to donuts he comes out against the Rams and just sits back and let's the Rams rampage up and down the field.

[pbmax]

You know full well that as often as not it doesn't work; and on those 2 plays where we held them 1 yd short, it damn near didn't work either. They could have just as easily slipped out of the tackle and fallen forward for the 1st down.

I know you like passive, "bend but don't break" defense - that's the style of play bad defenses must employ out of necessity b/c they don't have the players to get home or challenge receivers. That's the style of play Dom prefers regardless of the talent level... Dom's your guy for sure and for certain. For me?? It's a very frustrating style of football to watch.

Last season's debacle should have been a wake up call, but it wasn't. Dom is doing the same things this year as last - Sunday's game notwithstanding. Dollars to donuts he comes out against the Rams and just sits back and let's the Rams rampage up and down the field.

Actually, I would love to see the numbers. Because I think it works better than 50% of the time, but I am not sure the actual number.

[denverYooper]

Actually, I would love to see the numbers. Because I think it works better than 50% of the time, but I am not sure the actual number.

They are currently only losing on 3rd down at a 37% clip. 11th in the league. So there's that.

It seems that 3rd and long is generally when they use the 3 man front. Or at the end of halves, when they are trying to prevent bombs.

[LEWCWA]

Rushing 3 is almost always completely useless - and can only be justified in the case of a zone blitz.

If you're rushing 3, you might as well be rushing none - b/c you're not likely to get any pressure at all. The QB can just sit in a rocking chair and wait for the coverage to break down... which, given enough time, coverage will always break down. The name of the game is pressure - if you generate pressure, and force the QB to get rid of the ball quickly, all you need do is make the tackle at the point of the catch, and you're off the field.

As I said when we were discussing this issue in other threads - the "prevent defense" used to be very much en vogue back in the 80's. How many times did you watch a Defensive Coordinator go into a shell, rush 3, and let the opposing teams offense waltz down the field without challenge, and kick the game winning FG or have 3 legitimate shots into the end zone from short range??

As I said, and as many analysts have said over the years, the only thing the "prevent defense" prevents is your team winning. Eventually, after watching too many teams, blow too many games, DC's caught on and finally figured out that they're better off trying to generate pressure than slowly bleed to death playing prevent. Capers never got that memo.

This is a legitimate school of thought, but not the only one. I don't deny the merits of pressure and a quick pass, but it has its faults as well. One missed tackle and it is usually a TD. Dropping 8 is less sexy, but has less risk involved. The only thing I will agree with you on is you have to mix it up a little. You can't drop 8 every time, but dropping 8 effective in getting off the field on 3rd and long and also creates turnovers. High percentage blitzing is gimmicky as well, in a perfect world you stop the run with your front 7, rush the passer with front 4 (or 3 with a lb) and cover with back 7.

[LEWCWA]

You also have to take into account the games we watch today have been bastardized to favor offense. Defenses are playing with hands tied up, so they need to be a little more cautious with the calls. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of sending pressure and forcing the action, but also understand the idea behind the 3 man rush.

[SkinBasket]

Sounds like a racist thread title.

Only to a racist. On a related note, my kid just wrote a story about two kids who fight a lot, Emily and Scat. His only character detail was that they're black. Ah, kids. They grow up so fast these days.

[Fritz]

Scat? What a poopy name.