Serious discussion please - What do you do with Finley

[Patler]

Please not the emotional rants and raves about the guy. Serious discussion please:

If you are MM, what do you do with Finley? He seems to be getting even worse.
Can you continue to throw to him in critical situations?
Can you continue to throw to him on third down in a close game?
Do you use his injury as an excuse to sit him down a couple weeks?

I think I would use the last of the options I listed, but probably only if Williams can play. Otherwise, I might leave him active, but not play him for a week or two, then slowly work him back in again.

[channtheman]

I honestly don't know. As you've mentioned his play has been regressing to the point that I don't think you can rely on him in ANY situation. He's dropping a lot of crucial passes. I would use his injury as an excuse to keep him out for the next few weeks. What is his problem though? Lack of concentration? We knew he at least for part of one season was a dominant force, but now he is just pathetic.

[Pugger]

With Quarless on the PUP and Williams sore hammy I don't know if we do anything. Finley wasn't 100% last night either.

[3irty1]

Its hard to give up on him when you know his current state isn't the norm. This is a guy with extraordinarily soft hands who is now in an undeniable pattern of dropping everything. I definitely start giving away his reps. If he doesn't respond to competition then he doesn't belong in the NFL anyways. I think Tom Crabtree has earned more reps.

[Willard]

Send him to an Optometrist to make sure that isn't the issue. ADHD medication?

[Guiness]

It looks to me like he's already being phased out if parts of the gameplan. Crabtree is healthy, and is taking some snaps. I'm certainly not saying Crabtree is going to replace Finley, but if he was playing well, they'd be working harder to keep him on the field.

[Joemailman]

Let him know you still have confidence in him, and hope he works his way out of it, ala James Jones. I suspect he's suffering from a loss of confidence right now, but one great play could reverse that.

[pbmax]

Option C as soon as DJ Williams is available to take his spot and give you three TEs for both the offense and ST.

I am not sure he will have any chance to fix anything while injured. But if Williams remains unavailable and Finley's health is sound enough, keep giving him chances in certain situations.

[mraynrand]

McCarthy knows what he's doing. He's not going to make Finley a huge part of his game plan while he's hurt, especially if he can't block too. He's just not going to need to go to him against certain defenses, and if he doesn't make plays. But I wouldn't be shocked to see Finley go for 6-7 catches and a couple of TDs against Chicago when they play them again, or against other defenses if they start to ignore him. Tom Crabtree isn't the answer, Williams is not much more than JAG, but Quarless might be.

[LegandofthePack15]

McCarthy knows what he's doing. He's not going to make Finley a huge part of his game plan while he's hurt, especially if he can't block too. He's just not going to need to go to him against certain defenses, and if he doesn't make plays. But I wouldn't be shocked to see Finley go for 6-7 catches and a couple of TDs against Chicago when they play them again, or against other defenses if they start to ignore him. Tom Crabtree isn't the answer, Williams is not much more than JAG, but Quarless might be.

Agreed, though I think Quarless is just average.

J-Mike seems to be lacking confidence catching the ball. Needs a monster game to get that confidence back. Edited: Joemailman beat me to it, regarding said statement.

Yes, J-Mike is still the Pack's best TE.

[Bossman641]

I really don't know what you do with him. It seems like they try to get him some easy passes early to get him involved and confident. The past 2 weeks they have thrown him out routes early on that only went for 2-3 yards.

Long term, I think he is gone now. The money seems like it could be better spent elsewhere.

[pbmax]

I really don't know what you do with him. It seems like they try to get him some easy passes early to get him involved and confident. The past 2 weeks they have thrown him out routes early on that only went for 2-3 yards.

Long term, I think he is gone now. The money seems like it could be better spent elsewhere.

Good point about planning your cash expenditures. Maybe keep injured Jennings and someone else. :)

[mraynrand]

Good point about planning your cash expenditures. Maybe keep injured Jennings and someone else. :)

If Finley keeps playing poorly, it will be cheaper to keep her. It's kinda like that old deal at 7-11: If the coffee isn't fresh, you get it free!


So maybe we want Finley to keep sucking until we can resign him and then beast it out.

[mraynrand]

Sorry Patler, I violated you r 'serious' thread policy. So sue me.

[Tony Oday]

Take him out behind the woodshed and beat him until his hands improve?

In all seriousness he is not a good tight end right now. He looks the part but so does every NFL player he just doesnt have the hands to do it.

[Kiwon]

Finley, A-Rod, TT and MM have all been together during Finley's five years. If the Packers don't know how to talk sense into him by now they never will.

Finley's agent has already shown he is not a positive influence. You can't count on him. First, his agent criticizes A-Rod and then weeks afterward, Finley chimes in as well over a lack of chemistry. A-Rod is a MVP and doesn't need to prove anything to anyone, teammate or his agent.

Randy Moss had all kinds of talent too......if you got it out of him. Most teams weren't willing to try. Too much risk, not enough reward.

If the Houston game was really the turning point of the season and the Packers get rolling, you have to protect the whole locker room chemistry, not just the chemistry between two players. You don't need a sour puss to sow division and that's what is likely to happen at the egging on of the media. They don't care. They will create the news just as easily as reporting it.

The NFL is a business, and Finley is paid a lot of money to produce. I think TT needs to give him an ultimatum, especially since he is under contract through next year. The problem needs to end NOW because the team will not tolerate pointless drama.

Yeah, give him another chance, but if he doesn't want to be quiet and give full effort, then trade him to an AFC team and get the best deal possible.

[Upnorth]

As mentioned above, I think his confidence is shot. My plan would be sit him down in your office, talk to him about his greatness and how to tap that, how if he can he could be one of the greats, then tell him you have a guest to speak with him. Open the door, step out and let Shannon Sharpe talk to him about keeping your head in the game when there is lots of pressure and how to rise about it.
Don't know if he is the type to appreciate history, but I think it would send a message of confidence the team has in him and what he is capable of.
This might also be a pointless gesture, as some people think motivational meetings are cheesy.

[Patler]

Long term, I think he is gone now. The money seems like it could be better spent elsewhere.

Decision time for that will come in the next off season, most likely. He is due something like $8 million for 2013. They will have to feel very sure he will get out of his funk to spend that kind of money on him.

Long term, it is not just the drops they will be concerned with. His injury history is not the best either.

[Zool]

It's tough to let go of a guy with such immense talent, but eventually you might have to bite that bullet. His brain just isn't playing well with the rest of his body. His flashes have him basically unstoppable. His lulls have him below Crabtree on every depth chart imaginable.

I'd ride out the season and see how it ends. Cut bait if he doesn't turn it around.

[run pMc]

I think Bob McGinn made a comment in last season's review where he wondered if Finley needed Lasik surgery or had something undiagnosed with how he's dropping the ball. He used to be much more dependable. Someone posted highlights in another thread; he seemed to be more open (often had a LB or S single covering him), so he's either slowed down, getting more defensive attention, or his routes suck.
If he's drawing more attention, you'd think that would help open things up for someone else.
Drops aside, only the coaches really know what he's supposed to be doing and whether he's doing it right. I'm guessing M3 has a good idea of what's going on and trying to get the best out of him. The problem is likely between the ears and many have commented on that so I won't.
He's not a cancer. He's the most talented TE on the roster. Like many players he's dinged up at the moment.
Unless he becomes more dependable, I don't see how they keep him past his contract...not at his current salary anyway.
GB got by with Quarless and with Williams/Crabtree/Taylor probably could, but I wouldn't call that a "special" group.
I think losing both Jennings and Finley would be tough for the offense and TT will need to find capable quick-study replacements in the draft.

[mraynrand]

His lulls have him below Crabtree on every depth chart imaginable.

I suppose every TEs lulls have them below crabtree, but if you're looking at offensive skills, there's no comparison there. Overall, Crabtree is performing better because of special teams and blocking. But as a TE in the passing game, Crabby is JAG.

[mraynrand]

Long term, it is not just the drops they will be concerned with. His injury history is not the best either.

Injury Prone!

[Zool]

I suppose every TEs lulls have them below crabtree, but if you're looking at offensive skills, there's no comparison there. Overall, Crabtree is performing better because of special teams and blocking. But as a TE in the passing game, Crabby is JAG.

A JAG who catches the ball when it's thrown to him. He's a solid blocker and gets open occasionally. I realize its a bit of a stretch, but I have 0 confidence that Finley is going to catch a ball thrown his way. It looks like JMike has about the same confidence.

[denverYooper]

James Jones is starting to take over some of the Finley role right now, in the passing game anyhow. I think he's the one who is taking targets from Finley.

He might even be a better blocker...

It'll be interesting to see if they get Quarless involved more when he gets back, but I think they'll just scale back Finley's role in the passing game for now without necessarily focusing on other TEs. Maybe they just need to scale him back some and let him earn his opportunities back.

[mraynrand]

A JAG who catches the ball when it's thrown to him. He's a solid blocker and gets open occasionally. I realize its a bit of a stretch, but I have 0 confidence that Finley is going to catch a ball thrown his way. It looks like JMike has about the same confidence.

zero? really. Can I see the statistics on your confidence meter?

Ed West caught the ball and blocked too

[run pMc]

So I answered the 1st question in a stream of consciousness way.


Can you continue to throw to him in critical situations?
Yes. He has value even as a diversion, but if you don't show him confidence he won't clear whatever mental block he's got and be a very expensive benchwarmer.


Can you continue to throw to him on third down in a close game?
Yes, but I'd rather throw it to Cobb. He's a more dynamic player. If we're just talking about TE's, I think D.J. Williams is worth a look.


Do you use his injury as an excuse to sit him down a couple weeks?
For a week? Yes. For 2? Probably not. He'll play hurt but I think his blocking suffers. If Williams is healthy I'd plug him and Crabtree in.

[Teamcheez1]

We have 10 more games to evaluate Finley's performance this year. We should have a much clearer picture by the end of the season. I don't think it' worth speculating at this point in time. MM will put the players on the field that will win games, regardless of their contract situation or future.

[Zool]

zero? really. Can I see the statistics on your confidence meter?

Ed West caught the ball and blocked too

You will of course excuse my exaggeration on an internet forum.

[Patler]

I suppose every TEs lulls have them below crabtree, but if you're looking at offensive skills, there's no comparison there. Overall, Crabtree is performing better because of special teams and blocking. But as a TE in the passing game, Crabby is JAG.

In terms of actual performance (not potential), is Finley more than JAG this year?

In my opinion, his actual performance this year on a whole has not been better than any other TE. I think it is time for a shake-up. He's a fifth year pro, albeit a younger one. Nevertheless, I would start giving Williams (when healthy) some of the plays that would normally go to Finley. If Finley doesn't respond positively, I would give Williams even more.

[George Cumby]

The NFL is a performance/results based business, is it not?

Is Finley performing up to the standards set by his contract? IMO, no.

Is Finley a legitimate threat that opposing defensive coordinators have to account for? IMO, no.

Is Finley a reliable target? IMO, no.

Does Finley have a huge amount of talent? Obviously.

I think the staff has to seriously consider decreasing his reps, perhaps even benching him (provided a serviceable replacement is available), until he can get his head (or eyes) right.

Because, it's all a head-space issue with the poor kid, for whatever reason, he just can't hold onto the ball.

At this point though, he is so suspect, I am amazed that ARod even throws him the ball.

[mraynrand]

You will of course excuse my exaggeration on an internet forum.

I think we've outlawed exaggeration here - along with Kennedy snuff films.

[George Cumby]

I think we've outlawed exaggeration here - along with Kennedy snuff films.

Can we please just let that slip into oblivion? :lol:

[mraynrand]

In terms of actual performance (not potential), is Finley more than JAG this year?

I believe I gave even crabby the overall nod in total performance. Finley is still better than Crabby as a TE. Up until last night's game, Finley was about equal in receptions to the other three top receivers - Nelson, Jones, Cobb. So yes, Finley is more than JAG - because he's close to Nelson, Jones, and Cobb. I don't know what to make of last night's game. Finley injury or gameplanning reduced his role. A drop and an offensive PI by themselves are not too terrible factoring in the injury. Nelson dropped a pass too. With his history and piling on, I suppose it's getting much worse. Pretty soon, people will booing him like Buckley, I suppose


In my opinion, his actual performance this year on a whole has not been better than any other TE. I think it is time for a shake-up. He's a fifth year pro, albeit a younger one. Nevertheless, I would start giving Williams (when healthy) some of the plays that would normally go to Finley. If Finley doesn't respond positively, I would give Williams even more.

McCarthy has an interesting challenge if he goes that direction. Does he help correct the problem, or make it worse? Does he make him more of a head case by cutting his reps, or get him fired up and focused? Or, is Finley unsalvageable at this point and you just have to cut your losses. Hard to know. Will we be watching Finley do sit ups during interviews?

http://media.philly.com/images/071610-t-owens-400.jpg

[George Cumby]

Fin may be a little bit of a show-boat, but he is no TO.

[LEWCWA]

Just let him play his game. The rec. on this team drop balls, Jordy drops the ball, Jones drops the ball, Cobb had a drop, DD has had problems with easy drops. Just get him some easy targets, get his confidence right and reap the benefits. Right now they just can't run the O, inside out. They have to run it outside in. Get Fin his 5-6 targets a game and build his confidence.

[smuggler]

James Jones is starting to take over some of the Finley role right now, in the passing game anyhow. I think he's the one who is taking targets from Finley.

He might even be a better blocker...

I don't think that anyone in the world would argue that Finley is a better blocker than Jones.

[MadScientist]

If DJ Williams is healthy, I'd sit Finley for a week to let him rest his shoulder and maybe clear his mind. Otherwise I'd try to simplify things for Finely, so he has a lot less to think about. Stop splitting him wide so much and make him get the TE job down pat. Give him fewer routes to run and make him run them with precision over and over in practice. Use him more in down field blocking. In last nights game on that crossing pattern that was dropped (by Nelson or Cobb) that should have been a TD, Finley had not 1 but 2 defensive players blocked, clearing the way for the primary target. He should be able to do some of that on screens as well.

In short, break things down and start from scratch on Finely. Then build up from a working foundation and maybe they Packers will have a good player by the end of the season and into next year.

[sharpe1027]

Nelson was the one that dropped the pass while Finley was blocking for him.

[MadtownPacker]

Fin may be a little bit of a show-boat, but he is no TO.Youre right! TO would actually catch the ball and make plays in his heyday, along with the diva act.

He actually gave teams a reason to put up with his garbage unlike Hermichael.

[pbmax]

I don't think that anyone in the world would argue that Finley is a better blocker than Jones.

Jones is fine out wide on a DB or crashing a LB on a crack back or similar and Finley actually whiffs a lot more when he is outside. But Finley has become decent in-line even having to tie up Des. He's not Chmura, but he's closer to Crabtree and Quarless than many might think.

[smuggler]

Since Finley gets split out so often, I forget they actually ask him to block DL on the occasion. He's pretty good with a chip block, but against DB, I'd take my chances with Jones.

[Cheesehead Craig]

One way to send a message to him is to ask him to block more often on the plays he is in and have the other TEs go out on routes. Maybe a bit of grunt work for a game or two may help.

[denverYooper]

One way to send a message to him is to ask him to block more often on the plays he is in and have the other TEs go out on routes. Maybe a bit of grunt work for a game or two may help.

Maybe tell him he is Cinderella and he needs to scrub the floor for his ugly stepsisters.

[George Cumby]

Crazy thing is, I remember seeing him de-cleating some LB or DE in his rook/2nd year. It wasn't some scrub, either.

[rbaloha1]

Confidence is the issue.

Keep running him deep until A-rod connects.

[gbgary]

if he's able to play, he will. plays are designed with his skill-set in mind. the other TEs don't fit. they fit in the plays where a traditional TE is used.

this season won't be the deciding season longterm. his confidence is shot and now his health will skew anything else he does. it's next year...

[Patler]

if he's able to play, he will. plays are designed with his skill-set in mind. the other TEs don't fit. they fit in the plays where a traditional TE is used.

this season won't be the deciding season longterm. his confidence is shot and now his health will skew anything else he does. it's next year...

But, this season coupled with last season?
Bring him back for $8 million next season, just to see?

On the other hand, the Packers overpaid KGB by a lot for a couple years.

[denverYooper]

But, this season coupled with last season?
Bring him back for $8 million next season, just to see?

On the other hand, the Packers overpaid KGB by a lot for a couple years.

After putting in some years of outstanding performance. Finley doesn't have quite the service record that KGB did.

[Fritz]

But, this season coupled with last season?
Bring him back for $8 million next season, just to see?

On the other hand, the Packers overpaid KGB by a lot for a couple years.

Short term, I like the idea that you get him involved early with several short, easy passes. Keep feeding it to him on these short, easy routes - do what you can to set him up so he's open. After he's caught these, then you've got him warmed up, and you see how he does the rest of the night.

Long term, I think it'll depend on the rest of his season, both injury-wise and drop-wise.

Man, he dropped an obvious one against the Texans. And yes, he was guilty of offensive pass interference.

[Patler]

Short term, I like the idea that you get him involved early with several short, easy passes. Keep feeding it to him on these short, easy routes - do what you can to set him up so he's open. After he's caught these, then you've got him warmed up, and you see how he does the rest of the night.


I think they have tried that already this year, and they did last year.

Having reread some of his comments, I think deep down Finley is in denial about his own responsibility for his drops and overall performances. He says what sounds right, then generally follows it with some comment that deflects responsibility to how he is used, how often he is thrown to, etc. For that reason, I favor shock treatment. Not with electrodes, but by making it clear to him that until he starts playing like he can, others will get more and more of his opportunities.

[Iron Mike]

Trade him to Miami for Karlos Dansby.

[pbmax]

Trade him to Miami for Karlos Dansby.

Good thing we failed Dansby on his physical this preseason so we could get James Jones back. Maybe Dansby is healthy now.

[mmmdk]

Finley is a case of malignant Self Love and it's actually what's keeping his talent down.

[red]

he's our worst blocking TE and right now he's also our worst receiving TE.

you can't keep letting him kill drives which help lead to losing games just to try and build his confidence . you have to bench him and go with someone that you can count on to make a 5 yard catch when you need one.

and at this point, i really don't think our passing game needs finley.

try and trade him, trade deadline is 2 weeks away

[MadtownPacker]

Great post Red, good to see you have detoxed.

Yeah, it is starting to look like he has to go. The buzz of 2009 has faded and now that we are sober the true ugly face of finley is showing.

[rbaloha1]

Good thing we failed Dansby on his physical this preseason so we could get James Jones back. Maybe Dansby is healthy now.

I like it. Maybe Philbin would endorse it.

[mraynrand]

he's our worst blocking TE and right now he's also our worst receiving TE.

you can't keep letting him kill drives which help lead to losing games just to try and build his confidence . you have to bench him and go with someone that you can count on to make a 5 yard catch when you need one.

and at this point, i really don't think our passing game needs finley.

try and trade him, trade deadline is 2 weeks away

I think you're another one of those guys Patler was talking about who forgives Finley's every mistake. :lol:

[Patler]

he's our worst blocking TE and right now he's also our worst receiving TE.

you can't keep letting him kill drives which help lead to losing games just to try and build his confidence . you have to bench him and go with someone that you can count on to make a 5 yard catch when you need one.

and at this point, i really don't think our passing game needs finley.

try and trade him, trade deadline is 2 weeks away


I think you're another one of those guys Patler was talking about who forgives Finley's every mistake. :lol:


EXACTLY ! :lol: :lol:

[red]

i was trying to come up with this big long well thought out post, but i'm been so sick the last 2 days that i was only to throw down 1 line per thought