Mice And Men - Texans

[LegandofthePack15]

Since I am still aroused by the Packers' pulchritudinous (thanks, Dictionary.com thesaurus!) victory last night, I'm gonna climax by stealing ThunderDan's thunder once again. As Britney Spears likes to say, let me hit you one more time.

Mice (Duds):

Woodson - Gambled too much, leaving Texan receivers wide open a few times. Looked like he was playing Texas Hold'em instead of the Texans.

Punt cover team - Blocked punt could've been costly in a tight game. Inexcusable.

Injuries - That wretched fiend, Injury, is striking again. Hopefully no more serious injuries, especially to prominent players.

Baseball - Fucking Fox and fucking baseball on Sunday night. When will Animation Domination come back?

Men (Studs):

Rodgers - Criticism for past performance was pretty much warranted. Didn't play like a true stud 'til the Texan game. Joins the greatest of all time (in my humble opinion, of course), Brett Favre, in the 6 tds in a game club.

Nelson - Like Finley, had a drop or two. But drops were overshadowed by overall performance.

Cobb - Is having a nice season.

Jones (James) - All he does is catch tds. Looks like a poor man Chris Carter.

Green - Played better than his 3.0 rushing average. Kept Texans honest.

Hayward - 2 picks, knocked down a couple of balls. Good job, rookie!

[pbmax]

I am not sure one of the passes Wood got called out on in the Game Day thread was his fault. That looked like Hawk passed his receiver to the wide short zone when they had already flooded that side of the field and there was no one there to pick him up.

I would then give Wood a pass for his superior run support.

[Joemailman]

Men: Tom Crabtree. All he does is score touchdowns.

[run pMc]

How about a collective shoutout for the DLine for holding the Texans to 90 yards rushing?

[denverYooper]

I watched 1/2 the game while chasing my kids around O'Hare but I thought I saw some things.

Cobb is going to be the new Greg Jennings, with better hands. Rodgers is starting to trust him and he seems to know how to adjust and get open when the QB is scrambling. He made some big catches last night to keep the ball moving down the field.

Jones is having an insane season. He made some great catches last night and I think they've figured out that he just needs to have a higher degree of difficulty on the catch to make it. /kidding...

The most impressive thing about Rodgers's performance, I think, was the quality of competition. The Texans were coming in with the top pass D in terms of rating against. He absolutely owned them, looked decisive, and his accuracy was sharp.

Some credit to the OL. They played well, I thought, and maybe Saturday is getting into shape here because the interior looked pretty nice for most of the action that I saw. Watt got his, as he has every game this season, but they didn't let up anything from other guys and that limited Watt's impact on the game. That seems to be their biggest killer this year, when "other" (not just standout players) get through and start bringing multiple points of pressure.

Defense looks better than last year. They gave up 17 points to a very good offense and kept the game from being a shootout.

I'm starting to love Hayward. He seems to know how to find the ball and get at it. He generally looks pretty smart but he shouldn't have taken the ball out of the EZ near the end of the game.

I wouldn't put him in the studs but Mike Neal looked pretty disruptive in spots. LIS, I was a bit distracted but every time I looked at the game he was making the Texans OL work pretty hard. I'm a little excited to see what happens with him once he's back in game shape because he was moving guys around.

[Patler]

Men (Studs):

Rodgers - Criticism for past performance was pretty much warranted. Didn't play like a true stud 'til the Texan game. Joins the greatest of all time (in my humble opinion, of course), Brett Favre, in the 6 tds in a game club.

Ya, but Favre never threw 6 TDs in a game for the Packers. In Green Bay Packer records, Rodgers has moved ahead of Favre and joins that all-time Packer great, Matt Flynn, as the only members of the 6TDs in a game club. :grin:

[Freak Out]

I am not sure one of the passes Wood got called out on in the Game Day thread was his fault. That looked like Hawk passed his receiver to the wide short zone when they had already flooded that side of the field and there was no one there to pick him up.

I would then give Wood a pass for his superior run support.

Wood helped big time on the vaunted Texan stretch play...I add him to the Men column.

[Little Whiskey]

Men (Studs):

Rodgers - Criticism for past performance was pretty much warranted. Didn't play like a true stud 'til the Texan game. Joins the greatest of all time (in my humble opinion, of course), Brett Favre, in the 6 tds in a game club.



Rodgers hasn't played bad the first weeks, he just hasn't played SuperHuman. His numbers before the TX game were all-pro numbers. they just weren't the unrealistic numbers he put up last year. Alot of the bounces that the pack got last year just aren't going their way this year.

[Guiness]

Wood at OLB. That was something. Great to watch, but was I the only one who took a sharp breath every time he lined up there? I was almost as bad as him returning punts.

[MadtownPacker]

Shit list:
LegendofthePack - For not putting finley on the mice list.

[George Cumby]

Shit list:
LegendofthePack - For not putting finley on the mice list.

Don't you know how to spell? That's "Legand" to you!

[LegandofthePack15]

Men: Tom Crabtree. All he does is score touchdowns.

He also allowed a td...see the punt block.

[LegandofthePack15]

I am not sure one of the passes Wood got called out on in the Game Day thread was his fault. That looked like Hawk passed his receiver to the wide short zone when they had already flooded that side of the field and there was no one there to pick him up.

I would then give Wood a pass for his superior run support.

I think McGinn agrees with me somewhat:

At least once a game, Woodson will guess on a route combination and a receiver will be left wide open for about 15-yard gain.

[LegandofthePack15]

Shit list:
LegendofthePack - For not putting finley on the mice list.

Didn't think Finley played bad. More like "incomplete" as he played only 24 or so snaps. Had a redzone drop but so did Nelson.

[Patler]

Didn't think Finley played bad. More like "incomplete" as he played only 24 or so snaps. Had a redzone drop but so did Nelson.

Nelson paired his drop with some very good catches and an overall fine performance.

Finley paired his drop with an offensive pass interference and nothing of positive significance. Having 24 snaps is enough to make a positive contribution.

[LegandofthePack15]

Nelson paired his drop with some very good catches and an overall fine performance.

Finley paired his drop with an offensive pass interference and nothing of positive significance. Having 24 snaps is enough to make a positive contribution.

J-Mike's interference, refs usually let that that type of play go since it was very close to the 5 yard contact confinement. When they do throw a flag, more often than not, they call it on the defensive player. I've seen Wood get flagged countless times for getting pushed by an offensive player, usually a TE.

I thought Finley had a TD on a play but Rodgers under threw him and it was almost picked off.

The so-called "hate" some of you have Finley reminds me of the so-called hate some Packer fans had for Bill Schroeder when he was in Holmgren's doghouse. We all know what happened next: Schroeder went on to become a starter for the Pack. Since Finley is already a starter, I'm guessing its just a matter of time before he becomes a superstar. Have faith in J-Mike! :-o

[pbmax]

I think McGinn agrees with me somewhat:

At least once a game, Woodson will guess on a route combination and a receiver will be left wide open for about 15-yard gain.

On no, I agree with that. He is a gambler and I think occasionally that seeps over to the other CBs. Its partially encouraged by the coaches who teach some pattern recognition to the CBs themselves, though that is not the same as jumping the route.

However, on that big play to the TE I was referring to, I think the was either Hawk or Jones, because there were three DBs covering three deeper receivers.

[mraynrand]

On no, I agree with that. He is a gambler and I think occasionally that seeps over to the other CBs. Its partially encouraged by the coaches who teach some pattern recognition to the CBs themselves, though that is not the same as jumping the route.

However, on that big play to the TE I was referring to, I think the was either Hawk or Jones, because there were three DBs covering three deeper receivers.

That was all Hawk. He was the only one who seemed not to know man coverage included him too. Octopussy would have covered better there, but I don't think we'd get the anti-middle finger gesture.

[mraynrand]

Nelson paired his drop with some very good catches and an overall fine performance.

Finley paired his drop with an offensive pass interference and nothing of positive significance. Having 24 snaps is enough to make a positive contribution.

Not if the ball doesn't come to you - regardless of whether it's your fault or game situation.

The offensive PI has become a point of emphasis - it was called tight all over the NFL this past weekend (Might have had something to do with some blown calls against GB....) so it's hard for me to get too upset with Finley over that one - but I realize the old T-buck hater crowd has assembled and will pile on for anything Finley does at this point.

[mraynrand]

The so-called "hate" some of you have Finley reminds me of the so-called hate some Packer fans had for Bill Schroeder when he was in Holmgren's doghouse. We all know what happened next: Schroeder went on to become a starter for the Pack. Since Finley is already a starter, I'm guessing its just a matter of time before he becomes a superstar. Have faith in J-Mike! :-o

I think it's the revival of the old T-buck and Ahmad Carroll haters. Whether deserved (Carroll) or not (T-Buck) it helps to have that whipping boy (racist!) or scape goat(animalist!) to beat on.

[pbmax]

Its hard to make any new judgements about Finley while he is injured. But Patler's question does get at the heart of the issue, his role will have to change and the injury makes it a guess as to what. For instance, would blocking be off the list of things he could do? Its an AC joint injury.

[mraynrand]

Its hard to make any new judgements about Finley while he is injured.

that never stopped us before

[mraynrand]

. But Patler's question does get at the heart of the issue, his role will have to change and the injury makes it a guess as to what. For instance, would blocking be off the list of things he could do? Its an AC joint injury.

It depends on how bad the injury is. He played with the spider-web stuff on, but not a harness, right? So maybe it's just not that bad. I don't know how these guys play with those shoulder injuries anyway; I had a pretty serious should sep and I wasn't right for months (well, I'm still not right, but that's another story). Finley is probably a histrionic pussy and will be better after the bye - well, better everywhere except in his screwed-up pussy head.

[pbmax]

that never stopped us before

:lol:

I know I am up to the task, I am simply trying to be honest about the grudge I hold. Might just be disappointment too.

[Patler]

J-Mike's interference, refs usually let that that type of play go since it was very close to the 5 yard contact confinement. When they do throw a flag, more often than not, they call it on the defensive player. I've seen Wood get flagged countless times for getting pushed by an offensive player, usually a TE.

I thought Finley had a TD on a play but Rodgers under threw him and it was almost picked off.

The so-called "hate" some of you have Finley reminds me of the so-called hate some Packer fans had for Bill Schroeder when he was in Holmgren's doghouse. We all know what happened next: Schroeder went on to become a starter for the Pack. Since Finley is already a starter, I'm guessing its just a matter of time before he becomes a superstar. Have faith in J-Mike! :-o

I don't hate any player, but I do try to objectively evaluate their role on a team, and how they fit in both as to performance and with respect to the salary cap. For a few years many decades ago I was paid for my comments on high school and college players, and much later I ran around the US and Canada for the better part of 20 years to watch and evaluate young hockey players (through Juniors) because of various ownership interests I still have and related team responsibilities I had for 15 years or so. I learned very early to distinguish potential and athletic ability from actual performance on the field or ice. It is very easy to look at a physical specimen who looks great in practice and then give him more credit than he deserves for his actual game performance. It is easy to watch him do something well, looking graceful doing it, and automatically think no one else could have done it because he is just so gifted. But if you watch critically you will often see a much less gifted athlete do the same thing, but much less gracefully. The truly exceptional plays that only few can perform are much less common, and leap out at you.

Had you been here 3 and 4 years ago, you would have seen me as one of Finley's biggest supporters. I praised him at every opportunity for how he changed from his rookie year. I said his change in both attitude and performance were among the best that I remembered. I thought he really was on his way to becoming one of the dominant TEs. At that point, he really was making exceptional plays. I remember him just calmly snatching the ball away from DBs trying to cover him, and looking like a man among boys at times by just physically dominating plays (as a receiver, he has always been a very inconsistent blocker).

Two years ago, while out injured, he seemed to change his attitude again. An aggravation at the time, but no big deal. However, for nearly a season and a half his on the field performance has regressed badly. He now plays "small". The PI call is a good example. His combination of size and athletic skill should allow him to minimize the hand battles with defenders. He does not physically impose himself on the defender. Playing small got him the PI call on Sunday. His best plays are not ones that others can't make, and when given the opportunity to make exceptional plays, he has failed most of the time.

He is in his fifth year. Chances are high that he is all that he will ever be. It is not very common for a player to change dramatically after 5 years in the league, but two things are in Finley's favor with respect to that; he is still quite young having come out very early, and he has been injured often and has not had lengthy, consistent opportunities while not injured. Of course, the injuries raise an entirely different issue in and of themselves when considering his long-term role.

You can only baby along a guy because of potential for so long. I think that time has come for Finley. Five years is a long time in the NFL. As I have said before, if he goes somewhere else, the change of scenery might set him free to become a star, but at this point it is looking unlikely that will happen in GB. For that reason, I think it is time to put him on notice that there are others behind him who can do what he is doing. If he wants to hold the job he has to start doing the things that the others can not. If he can't do those things, a cheaper alternative to Finley is in the teams best interest.

[Patler]

Not if the ball doesn't come to you - regardless of whether it's your fault or game situation.

The offensive PI has become a point of emphasis - it was called tight all over the NFL this past weekend (Might have had something to do with some blown calls against GB....) so it's hard for me to get too upset with Finley over that one - but I realize the old T-buck hater crowd has assembled and will pile on for anything Finley does at this point.

If you don't get yourself open, the ball won't come to you. If you get in weak hand battles with defenders, the ball won't come to you, and if it does, you might get a PI call against you.

I started a thread with the idea of discussing what can be done with Finley to get him going. How does that equate to hate? Obviously, what they are doing now is not working, because not only is he not returning to his form of 2009-2010, I think he is actually getting worse.

I also don't put a lot of emphasis on the PI call alone, but as I said, if you couple that with a bad drop this game, and his failure to make an impact play in this game, his game was not very good.

As for his "almost" TD, do I think he should have caught it? Absolutely not. BUT, it would not have been the first time that I had seen a receiver aware of a DB cutting in front of him lunge back to the ball and snatch it away from the DB, especially a receiver with a big size advantage. That would have been one of those "wow" plays that would set Finley apart. But, as I said, absolutely no criticism to him on that play, because to get something out of it would have been truly exceptional.

[ThunderDan]

I think it's the revival of the old T-buck and Ahmad Carroll haters. Whether deserved (Carroll) or not (T-Buck) it helps to have that whipping boy (racist!) or scape goat(animalist!) to beat on.

I disagree. Finley has flat out sucked this year just like AJ Hawk did last year.

We are paying Finley big money to play like shit. That is money we could have extended Matthews, Raji or reworked ARod. $7.5M to stink up the joint. I think they are going to take a serious look at Finley if he continues to underperform.

[mraynrand]

I disagree. Finley has flat out sucked this year just like AJ Hawk did last year.

We are paying Finley big money to play like shit. That is money we could have extended Matthews, Raji or reworked ARod. $7.5M to stink up the joint. I think they are going to take a serious look at Finley if he continues to underperform.

You disagree? With what? I said deserved or not. I think people like to have a guy they can dog pile on, like Jones, Hawk, Carroll, Buckley, etc. etc. Deserved or not, Finley seems to be that guy this year.

[Patler]

I disagree. Finley has flat out sucked this year just like AJ Hawk did last year.

We are paying Finley big money to play like shit. That is money we could have extended Matthews, Raji or reworked ARod. $7.5M to stink up the joint. I think they are going to take a serious look at Finley if he continues to underperform.

I agree. It's not real bad this year, as I think his cost is something like $5 million and change. 2013 will cost around $8 million, which is a lot of both cash and cap space that can be spent on someone who is performing well. They have a lot of those players coming up for contracts soon.

[ThunderDan]

You disagree? With what? I said deserved or not. I think people like to have a guy they can dog pile on, like Jones, Hawk, Carroll, Buckley, etc. etc. Deserved or not, Finley seems to be that guy this year.

That he is being singled out like TBucky or Grabby Smurf. If any Packer can complain it's Bush about unfair critizism.

We are all Packer homers. Sometime it isn't fun looking at how your football "heros" are actually performing. Hell, I wanted the Pack to sign Finley to a long-term contract so I could finally buy his jersey.

[Patler]

You disagree? With what? I said deserved or not. I think people like to have a guy they can dog pile on, like Jones, Hawk, Carroll, Buckley, etc. etc. Deserved or not, Finley seems to be that guy this year.

I don't think Finley is "that guy" this year. Bulaga, Nelson and Rodgers have certainly gotten a lot of criticism as well, along with Saturday. There has been a lot of criticism leveled at the DBs, too. Wilson is routinely "dismissed", regardless of what he does.

For the most part, a vast number of people here want to continue making excuses for Finley, no matter how often and how long he plays poorly

[Patler]

That he is being singled out like TBucky or Grabby Smurf. If any Packer can complain it's Bush about unfair critizism.

We are all Packer homers. Sometime it isn't fun looking at how your football "heros" are actually performing. Hell, I wanted the Pack to sign Finley to a long-term contract so I could finally buy his jersey.

:lol: I wanted them to sign Wells and let Finley go. Wouldn't have mattered. Wells is on IR.

[denverYooper]

You can only baby along a guy because of potential for so long. I think that time has come for Finley. Five years is a long time in the NFL. As I have said before, if he goes somewhere else, the change of scenery might set him free to become a star, but at this point it is looking unlikely that will happen in GB. For that reason, I think it is time to put him on notice that there are others behind him who can do what he is doing. If he wants to hold the job he has to start doing the things that the others can not. If he can't do those things, a cheaper alternative to Finley is in the teams best interest.

I agree with this. It's part of the reason that I started the DJ Williams thread, because maybe Finley just needs a wake up call to get out of his head and spreading some opportunities around would likely be a wake up call. He's really the only TE that the team has planned any regular work for in terms of the passing game and his gaffes are costing them right now. I think the Colts game really solidified that. And with Cobb emerging and Jones playing well, they might just not worry much about TE involvement (outside of the occasional Crabtree play) going forward this year. They might not need it.

It also would not surprise me to see him go elsewhere and flourish because I still think he has a lot of ability and maybe he is just stuck and his mindset is too far gone in the current setting.

[mraynrand]

For the most part, a vast number of people here want to continue making excuses for Finley, no matter how often and how long he plays poorly


lol your eyes must work different than mine :lol:

[mraynrand]

That he is being singled out like TBucky or Grabby Smurf. If any Packer can complain it's Bush about unfair critizism.

We are all Packer homers. Sometime it isn't fun looking at how your football "heros" are actually performing. Hell, I wanted the Pack to sign Finley to a long-term contract so I could finally buy his jersey.

How could I forget about Bush! He is the classic whipping boy. Finley is just the flavor of the month, but that special could be continued....

[Patler]

lol your eyes must work different than mine :lol:

Perhaps a little bit of exaggeration to enhance persuasion, but it really surprises me how many do make excuse after excuse for him.

[MadtownPacker]

Didn't think Finley played bad. More like "incomplete" as he played only 24 or so snaps. Had a redzone drop but so did Nelson.You might not think he played bad but as you stated he play limited so maybe M3 (Packers head coach!!) is thinking along the sames lines as many here. That finley is not living up to the talk (his own specifically) and has constantly went public to cry about something that he has had control of this whole time (his hands).

I like finley still, he is marketable and has shown he has talent. But in the end the real question is does he have heart?

[pbmax]

If we were in the business of evaluating players, than making excuses for Finley serves no purpose. But as a fan, I want to have the upper hand in any debate with fans of other teams or folks who simply cannot stand Finley.

So excuse making is just practice for argument making. :lol:

In actuality, I want both. I want an honest evaluation of Finley, which is why I am happy this thread exists. I want the team to make a clinical evaluation of his value and I am pleased when I agree with their assessments. If we disagree, I hope the team is right but I am glad if y point is validated in some way or that I learn something.

But honest discussion of his strengths, weaknesses and value don't boost my spirits during the game or the ensuing debate with fans and friends.

[Patler]

If we were in the business of evaluating players, than making excuses for Finley serves no purpose. But as a fan, I want to have the upper hand in any debate with fans of other teams or folks who simply cannot stand Finley.

So excuse making is just practice for argument making. :lol:

In actuality, I want both. I want an honest evaluation of Finley, which is why I am happy this thread exists. I want the team to make a clinical evaluation of his value and I am pleased when I agree with their assessments. If we disagree, I hope the team is right but I am glad if y point is validated in some way or that I learn something.

But honest discussion of his strengths, weaknesses and value don't boost my spirits during the game or the ensuing debate with fans and friends.

For the most part, I don't talk sports with fans of other teams. I treat it sort of like religion and politics at a family gathering!

[Smidgeon]

I don't hate any player, but I do try to objectively evaluate their role on a team, and how they fit in both as to performance and with respect to the salary cap. For a few years many decades ago I was paid for my comments on high school and college players, and much later I ran around the US and Canada for the better part of 20 years to watch and evaluate young hockey players (through Juniors) because of various ownership interests I still have and related team responsibilities I had for 15 years or so. I learned very early to distinguish potential and athletic ability from actual performance on the field or ice. It is very easy to look at a physical specimen who looks great in practice and then give him more credit than he deserves for his actual game performance. It is easy to watch him do something well, looking graceful doing it, and automatically think no one else could have done it because he is just so gifted. But if you watch critically you will often see a much less gifted athlete do the same thing, but much less gracefully. The truly exceptional plays that only few can perform are much less common, and leap out at you.

Had you been here 3 and 4 years ago, you would have seen me as one of Finley's biggest supporters. I praised him at every opportunity for how he changed from his rookie year. I said his change in both attitude and performance were among the best that I remembered. I thought he really was on his way to becoming one of the dominant TEs. At that point, he really was making exceptional plays. I remember him just calmly snatching the ball away from DBs trying to cover him, and looking like a man among boys at times by just physically dominating plays (as a receiver, he has always been a very inconsistent blocker).

Two years ago, while out injured, he seemed to change his attitude again. An aggravation at the time, but no big deal. However, for nearly a season and a half his on the field performance has regressed badly. He now plays "small". The PI call is a good example. His combination of size and athletic skill should allow him to minimize the hand battles with defenders. He does not physically impose himself on the defender. Playing small got him the PI call on Sunday. His best plays are not ones that others can't make, and when given the opportunity to make exceptional plays, he has failed most of the time.

He is in his fifth year. Chances are high that he is all that he will ever be. It is not very common for a player to change dramatically after 5 years in the league, but two things are in Finley's favor with respect to that; he is still quite young having come out very early, and he has been injured often and has not had lengthy, consistent opportunities while not injured. Of course, the injuries raise an entirely different issue in and of themselves when considering his long-term role.

You can only baby along a guy because of potential for so long. I think that time has come for Finley. Five years is a long time in the NFL. As I have said before, if he goes somewhere else, the change of scenery might set him free to become a star, but at this point it is looking unlikely that will happen in GB. For that reason, I think it is time to put him on notice that there are others behind him who can do what he is doing. If he wants to hold the job he has to start doing the things that the others can not. If he can't do those things, a cheaper alternative to Finley is in the teams best interest.

Excellent post. Repped.

[mraynrand]

Perhaps a little bit of exaggeration to enhance persuasion, but it really surprises me how many do make excuse after excuse for him.

I thought it was funny because I think I'm the only one left making excuses for him. Seriously, I'm not his agent or anything, but I'm going to keep making those excuses until the guy gets better!

[ThunderDan]

I thought it was funny because I think I'm the only one left making excuses for him. Seriously, I'm not his agent or anything, but I'm going to keep making those excuses until the guy gets better!

Is that a life time appointment?

I sure hope Finley snaps out of his funk. The O can be so much more potent when Finley can create favorable 1-on-1 match-ups.

[mraynrand]

Is that a life time appointment?.

It depends on whose life you're talking about

[Patler]

I thought it was funny because I think I'm the only one left making excuses for him. Seriously, I'm not his agent or anything, but I'm going to keep making those excuses until the guy gets better!

Ya, when Brandon switched sides and gave up on Finley it was quite remarkable! :shock:

[LP]

Shit list:
LegendofthePack - For not putting finley on the mice list.

Should be put on a hell of alot worse list for bringing Brittney Spears into the conversation.

[Pugger]

I thought it was funny because I think I'm the only one left making excuses for him. Seriously, I'm not his agent or anything, but I'm going to keep making those excuses until the guy gets better!

I don't make excuses for him. He has not played as well as he has in the past and I think this is what frustrates us. But there are is a group of fans who hate him not because he drops passes but because of his silly tweets! I for one don't give a damn what some player tweets. From here it appears he works hard at practice, is well liked by his coaches and teammates and stays out of trouble off the field. He isn't the only one dropping passes but because he isn't the most eloquent speaker in the world with his tweets he is the one who is railed upon by fans.

[Patler]

I don't make excuses for him. He has not played as well as he has in the past and I think this is what frustrates us. But there are is a group of fans who hate him not because he drops passes but because of his silly tweets! I for one don't give a damn what some player tweets. From here it appears he works hard at practice, is well liked by his coaches and teammates and stays out of trouble off the field. He isn't the only one dropping passes but because he isn't the most eloquent speaker in the world with his tweets he is the one who is railed upon by fans.

Comm on, be fair. Yes, everyone drops passes, but no one on the Packers is dropping them at the rate Finley is. The guy leads the league in drops, according to the announcers a couple games ago. That goes well beyond what anyone else is dropping.

Why is it that just because someone is critical of a players performance, that person has to be referred to as a "hater". I have been very critical of Bulaga this year. Does that mean I hate Bulaga? It is entirely possible to dislike a players performance while having no personal feeling toward the player at all. It is entirely possible to dislike the inane comments made by a player without having that as the basis for judgement of his performance on the field.

[George Cumby]

If one truly "hates" a player, one needs to spend two weeks in the slums of Bangladesh to gain some perspective on life. I am not suggesting that anyone here is that..... lost.

Five years is long enough to assess what a player is. Finley is what he is: a mega-talented underachiever who isn't going to magically get his head right.

Rand, you are killing me with your Finley defense. I don't remember you as a Fin Fan. Are you doing it to tilt windmills? :-)

[mraynrand]

If one truly "hates" a player, one needs to spend two weeks in the slums of Bangladesh to gain some perspective on life. I am not suggesting that anyone here is that..... lost.

Let me tell you this: after four years in Bangladesh with crappy dialup and having to power my computer with a bicycle-driven generator, I got perspective coming out of my ass.


Five years is long enough to assess what a player is. Finley is what he is: a mega-talented underachiever who isn't going to magically get his head right.

Rand, you are killing me with your Finley defense. I don't remember you as a Fin Fan. Are you doing it to tilt windmills? :-)

Mostly the former, but a little of the latter. Love Finley. He will get his mind right, I am sure. I just hope it's with the Packers. Or else

http://www.jessicaswell.com/images/failure-to-communicate.jpg

[LegandofthePack15]

I don't hate any player, but I do try to objectively evaluate their role on a team, and how they fit in both as to performance and with respect to the salary cap. For a few years many decades ago I was paid for my comments on high school and college players, and much later I ran around the US and Canada for the better part of 20 years to watch and evaluate young hockey players (through Juniors) because of various ownership interests I still have and related team responsibilities I had for 15 years or so. I learned very early to distinguish potential and athletic ability from actual performance on the field or ice. It is very easy to look at a physical specimen who looks great in practice and then give him more credit than he deserves for his actual game performance. It is easy to watch him do something well, looking graceful doing it, and automatically think no one else could have done it because he is just so gifted. But if you watch critically you will often see a much less gifted athlete do the same thing, but much less gracefully. The truly exceptional plays that only few can perform are much less common, and leap out at you.

Had you been here 3 and 4 years ago, you would have seen me as one of Finley's biggest supporters. I praised him at every opportunity for how he changed from his rookie year. I said his change in both attitude and performance were among the best that I remembered. I thought he really was on his way to becoming one of the dominant TEs. At that point, he really was making exceptional plays. I remember him just calmly snatching the ball away from DBs trying to cover him, and looking like a man among boys at times by just physically dominating plays (as a receiver, he has always been a very inconsistent blocker).

Two years ago, while out injured, he seemed to change his attitude again. An aggravation at the time, but no big deal. However, for nearly a season and a half his on the field performance has regressed badly. He now plays "small". The PI call is a good example. His combination of size and athletic skill should allow him to minimize the hand battles with defenders. He does not physically impose himself on the defender. Playing small got him the PI call on Sunday. His best plays are not ones that others can't make, and when given the opportunity to make exceptional plays, he has failed most of the time.

He is in his fifth year. Chances are high that he is all that he will ever be. It is not very common for a player to change dramatically after 5 years in the league, but two things are in Finley's favor with respect to that; he is still quite young having come out very early, and he has been injured often and has not had lengthy, consistent opportunities while not injured. Of course, the injuries raise an entirely different issue in and of themselves when considering his long-term role.

You can only baby along a guy because of potential for so long. I think that time has come for Finley. Five years is a long time in the NFL. As I have said before, if he goes somewhere else, the change of scenery might set him free to become a star, but at this point it is looking unlikely that will happen in GB. For that reason, I think it is time to put him on notice that there are others behind him who can do what he is doing. If he wants to hold the job he has to start doing the things that the others can not. If he can't do those things, a cheaper alternative to Finley is in the teams best interest.

Cheaper doesn't always mean better.

Thompson let Wahle and Rivera walk and he replaced them with cheapos like Klemm and Whittacker. Favre was sacked more times that season than a porn star. Thompson thought Sharper was over-the-hill and overpaid, so he released D-Sharp. D-Sharp continued to be a pro-bowl player for the Vikings and Saints. All the while, the Packers struggle at the safety position with cheapo like Little, Manual and Rouse.

Some folks are like, lets bench Finley for Williams, Crabtree or Quarless. Well, no D-cordinator game plan for those guys. I'd like to see what they can do when teams start keying them. I honestly think J-Mike would be putting up Graham/Gronk-type numbers if he were on a team without so many weapons.

[ThunderDan]

Cheaper doesn't always mean better.

Thompson let Wahle and Rivera walk and he replaced them with cheapos like Klemm and Whittacker. Favre was sacked more times that season than a porn star. Thompson thought Sharper was over-the-hill and overpaid, so he released D-Sharp. D-Sharp continued to be a pro-bowl player for the Vikings and Saints. All the while, the Packers struggle at the safety position with cheapo like Little, Manual and Rouse.

Some folks are like, lets bench Finley for Williams, Crabtree or Quarless. Well, no D-cordinator game plan for those guys. I'd like to see what they can do when teams start keying them. I honestly think J-Mike would be putting up Graham/Gronk-type numbers if he were on a team without so many weapons.

Just wait .... it's coming. And then you are going to get a giant stamp on your ass.

[LegandofthePack15]

Just wait .... it's coming. And then you are going to get a giant stamp on your ass.

Let me quote you. I'll bump this thread up sometimes in the near future when J-Mike is ruling the world. :-D

[sharpe1027]

Cheaper doesn't always mean better.

Thompson let Wahle and Rivera walk and he replaced them with cheapos like Klemm and Whittacker. Favre was sacked more times that season than a porn star. Thompson thought Sharper was over-the-hill and overpaid, so he released D-Sharp. D-Sharp continued to be a pro-bowl player for the Vikings and Saints. All the while, the Packers struggle at the safety position with cheapo like Little, Manual and Rouse.

Some folks are like, lets bench Finley for Williams, Crabtree or Quarless. Well, no D-cordinator game plan for those guys. I'd like to see what they can do when teams start keying them. I honestly think J-Mike would be putting up Graham/Gronk-type numbers if he were on a team without so many weapons.

To be fair, Wahle and Rivera were allowed to "walk" because wasted cap money on other players left no room to sign them (at least not both, probably not either). Sharper was a probowl player because he got a lot of picks, but he also had a reputation for gambling too much trying to get those picks. Was he worth the salary he got from the Queens? Maybe.

Cheaper for a worse player does not always mean better, but sometimes it does. If letting Finley goes means keeping a guy like Jennings (or some other good player), it might be considered better.

[LP]

I honestly think J-Mike would be putting up Graham/Gronk-type numbers if he were on a team without so many weapons.

Graham, Gronk, Gonzalez and others actually catch the ball consistently. Other weapons or not, Finely doesn't. Not anymore. It'd be really, really nice if he would again, but he doesn't. And that's not hating. It's just a fact.

[ThunderDan]

Let me quote you. I'll bump this thread up sometimes in the near future when J-Mike is ruling the world. :-D

Why? What have I said other than trying to be objective about his play. I hope he turns it around.

I was sure Patler was going to correct you on your Wahle and Rivera comments. They were let go because of no cap room not because of performance issues.

[Patler]

Cheaper doesn't always mean better.

Thompson let Wahle and Rivera walk and he replaced them with cheapos like Klemm and Whittacker. Favre was sacked more times that season than a porn star. Thompson thought Sharper was over-the-hill and overpaid, so he released D-Sharp. D-Sharp continued to be a pro-bowl player for the Vikings and Saints. All the while, the Packers struggle at the safety position with cheapo like Little, Manual and Rouse.

Some folks are like, lets bench Finley for Williams, Crabtree or Quarless. Well, no D-cordinator game plan for those guys. I'd like to see what they can do when teams start keying them. I honestly think J-Mike would be putting up Graham/Gronk-type numbers if he were on a team without so many weapons.

I didn't say cheaper means better, but sometime cheaper does provide advantages for the team w/r/t the salary cap.

Wahle, Rivera and Sharper (who declined renegotiation to stay) were unaffordable under the salary cap at the time. TT didn't have many options at the time, especially when Sharper refused to renegotiate.

Even if Finley starts playing up to his potential, it might be better to use the money he would receive to pay someone else. Same with Jennings. Probably not both.

Wolf had to let many good players leave, even all-pros, just to stay under the cap. TT is getting into a similar situation with so many good, young players neding contracts in the neext couple years.

[George Cumby]

Ya, when Brandon switched sides and gave up on Finley it was quite remarkable! :shock:


When was this? I would LOVE to see that post. His battles with you over Fin were like Rocky and Apollo Creed. :razz:

[Joemailman]

When was this? I would LOVE to see that post. His battles with you over Fin were like Rocky and Apollo Creed. :razz:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?24598-DJ-Williams&p=690400&highlight=#post690400


Give DJ Williams more playing time, I'm done with Finley.

[George Cumby]

Thanks Joe. 'Preciate it. :-P

[Brandon494]

Ya, when Brandon switched sides and gave up on Finley it was quite remarkable! :shock:

Only because hes doing shit for my fantasy team. :-x

[Freak Out]

I drafted Big Fin as well....Kyle Rudolph is now higher than Fin on the depth chart. :)

[Brandon494]

I drafted Big Fin as well....Kyle Rudolph is now higher than Fin on the depth chart. :)

I have Brent Celek starting over him...but I picked up Jones, Cobb, and Green thru wavier wire and currently 1st in my league. :smile: