Lance Armstrong

[Kiwon]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

[wootah]

He's a fraud. All of his teammates made detailed, independent testimonies that all tell the same story. Doping was professionally organised in Armstrong's/Bruyneel's teams. His fellow riders had to participate or they'd get kicked out.

Let it be clear that it was a time where everyone cheated, but Armstrong just had access to the best candy of them all. Time to take off the livestrong bracelet...

[hoosier]

Along with our very own former QB, just another example of how silly hero worshipping can get.

[mraynrand]

Along with our very own 'former' president, just another example of how silly hero worshipping can get.

FIFY - sorry about the FYI intrusion.

[mraynrand]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

When you look at all these guys, and how competitive they are, a case like this - much like roids or other enhancers in the NFL - makes me wonder just how many guys are doing the same thing and don't get caught. But Lance cheated; it seems pretty obvious. But is he the only guy, or just the guy people decided to take out? If Wootah is correct that everyone cheated, then why Armstrong? If everyone is a 'cheater', doesn't that mean no one really is?

[George Cumby]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

His wife stays with him through his fight with cancer. He then dumps her for some floozy with a guitar. Fuck Lance Armstrong.

[Kiwon]

His wife stays with him through his fight with cancer. He then dumps her for some floozy with a guitar. Fuck Lance Armstrong.

And then he dumped Sheryl Crow in 2006 and since has 2 kids with another lady. But that's his personal business. Sheryl Crow got her revenge anyway after being subpoenaed by the Feds.

What I care about is the doping or cheating. How does he get away with it for so long if it was rampant? He was suspected and tested all the time. Is he this criminal mastermind that just outsmarted the American, French, and other cycling organizations? Who developed the chemicals he was using? Who perfected the system/schedule of when to use and when to not?

I mean, he did not do this alone. Who really is behind the doping in cycling? Who manufactures the chemicals? Who teaches the riders how to shoot up?

[wootah]

When you look at all these guys, and how competitive they are, a case like this - much like roids or other enhancers in the NFL - makes me wonder just how many guys are doing the same thing and don't get caught. But Lance cheated; it seems pretty obvious. But is he the only guy, or just the guy people decided to take out? If Wootah is correct that everyone cheated, then why Armstrong? If everyone is a 'cheater', doesn't that mean no one really is?

All others have already been caught. It was just Armstrong who was able to escape miraculously while he was the one who absolutely destroyed the doped up opponents for 7 years in a row. Smells fishy, right? Maybe cycling is not so big where you're from, but over here it is, and there has been plenty of press regarding the others ones that got caught. An overview of the Lance's Tours de France with the ones linked to doping crossed out:

1999
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour19992.jpg

2000
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20002.jpg

2001
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20012.jpg

2002
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20022.jpg

2003
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20032.jpg

2004
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20042.jpg

2005
http://1.nieuwsbladcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/24/tour20052.jpg

Crazy, huh?


What I care about is the doping or cheating. How does he get away with it for so long if it was rampant? He was suspected and tested all the time. Is he this criminal mastermind that just outsmarted the American, French, and other cycling organizations? Who developed the chemicals he was using? Who perfected the system/schedule of when to use and when to not?
I mean, he did not do this alone. Who really is behind the doping in cycling? Who manufactures the chemicals? Who teaches the riders how to shoot up?

This is the reason the Armstrong thing is so big. All the big cyclists of that era had been caught, he wasn't. How was that possible? The USADA report show a number of reasons:
1) The US Postal doping program was more advanced than that of the other teams (more resources) and it was set up in such a professional manner that they always were a step ahead of the doping hunters.
2) Team manager Johan Bruyneel (blame it on the Belgian!) apparently knew when they would be tested via his contacts and that gave Armstrong & co time to get all evidences wiped out.
3) The one time Armstrong did get caught, apparently he and Nike offerect $500k to the doping agency in order to have this covered up. Nike hasn't responded to these accusations yet, but they did end their contracts with Armstrong yesterday.

Now where does it all come from? The doping are just meds used for other purposes. Very popular are astma relating meds enlarging lung capacity. A couple of years ago a report came out that more than half of the professional cyclists were diagnosed with astma and therefor were allowed to take some kind of meds for that without having it concidered to be doping :)

Then there's EPO and all kind of variants which (I believe) improves the oxygen transfer in the blood. Also normally a drug for sick people.

Popular the last years were the blood transfers, where blood rich of white bloodcells was being tapped from the cyclists during training sessions early in the season and then again inserted to their bodies during exhausting multiple day races like the Tour de France when the level of white blood cells in their blood was low.

The cyclist wants to make money and there are doctors/vets out there which have the knowhow and the access to these products. They will provide them for a nice price. Armstrong payed millions of dollars to Doctor Ferrari, who is linked to doping in multiple cases. According to Armstrong it was for "training consulting".

[Patler]

It's unfortunate, too, because Armstrong might have been a star if the sport had been clean. According to a few articles I read, he was a phenom of sorts as a young boy, first in distance running,then in cycling. Even his competitors admit that he trained far more than they did. He was possessed by the competition.

As the red "X"'s in wootah's post show, it was rampant in the sport. I wonder if those not X'ed out were clean, or just not caught because no one cared enough about them to pursue investigations. When so many do it, how does one compete and not do it?

[Kiwon]

All others have already been caught. It was just Armstrong who was able to escape miraculously while he was the one who absolutely destroyed the doped up opponents for 7 years in a row. Smells fishy, right? Maybe cycling is not so big where you're from, but over here it is, and there has been plenty of press regarding the others ones that got caught. An overview of the Lance's Tours de France with the ones linked to doping crossed out:

The cyclist wants to make money and there are doctors/vets out there which have the knowhow and the access to these products. They will provide them for a nice price. Armstrong payed millions of dollars to Doctor Ferrari, who is linked to doping in multiple cases. According to Armstrong it was for "training consulting".

So year after year, 90% of the top finishers in the Tours de France were cheaters? Wow.

So what changes to cycling have been made in recent years? How do you catch blood dopers? Measure the white blood counts?

I have wondered about that.....are you cheating just because you are receiving your own blood? Maybe they ought to have a cheaters race and everyone be up front about it. Each rider still has to complete the grueling event under often adverse weather conditions.

I agree with Patler, a bulldog has nothing on Armstrong when it comes to toughness in competition. Say what you want to, seven times he started at the same starting line as everyone else and seven times he finished ahead of everyone else after riding for 3 weeks. He rode the miles, he completed the stages. <sigh> But I guess he cheated doing it.

I suppose if there are shortcuts available, the temptation is too great not to take it.

It's really too bad. A great story is re-written and a very inspiring legacy is tainted forever.

[wootah]

DP

[wootah]

Armstrong was mentally on a different level than most of his opponents; an animal while training AND during the race. You can still see that competitive fire in his triathlon results of the last years.

Would he be as dominant if everybody was clean cannot be known. It is a fact that the Armstrong pre-cancer and the one after are 2 complete types of cyclists. From a heavy muscular type that relied on his power and was unfit for the multiple day races to a slimmed down version relying on endurance & technique which could compete in the mountains as well.

Just look at his body type before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40418000/jpg/_40418279_roadrace203_270.jpg

and after:
http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/l/lance_armstrong_winning-4145.jpg

Regarding the ones not caught; Kivilev died very young from a bad fall during a race. The others probably got out before they got caught. Cyclists are all tested regularly, from the big names to the small ones, so I don't think it's a matter of the authorities not caring enough.

[wootah]

So what changes to cycling have been made in recent years? How do you catch blood dopers? Measure the white blood counts?

Yes, that's one way of testing it; using the hematocrit values of the blood & compare that with previous measurements. Since these levels are normally pretty stable (they vary a little if you train at great heigth), variances are considered linked to doping. Each pro cyclist has his own proper "blood passport" with which his values are compared.

They also test on illegal substances of which sometimes particles are left in the tapped blood. This is what got Alberto Contador caught recently. As he said himself, he only had "Zero comma zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero cinco gramos" of the illegal substance in his blood :)

But let's face facts, also in this topic: if a proper doping test procedure would exist in NBA/NFL, one comparable to that in cycling, we'd see a lot of red crosses there as well, I'm afraid. Still we continue to watch the games...

[mraynrand]

Nice info Wootah. So everyone is a 'cheater' - What's the point; why not let everyone dope it up? Saves money on all those tests!

[Freak Out]

The doping and such was a very small part of how he won so many Tours...great teams were built that were focused on one thing only, getting Lance another title, he was such a naturally gifted endurance athlete to begin with...and he trained like a demonic motherfucker.....but in the end he cheated like all the others and another Superman was exposed as a fraud.

The organizers need to go back to the roots of the tour...blood doping with champagne and cigarettes!

[George Cumby]

Thanks Wootah.

Super-informative.

[red]

what a joke of a sport. you have juicers, and guys that bitch about the juicers because they haven't been caught yet

its like baseball and bowling, the whole damn sport is crooked and roided up

[Freak Out]

Bowlers juice up now?

[LegandofthePack15]

Nice info Wootah. So everyone is a 'cheater' - What's the point; why not let everyone dope it up? Saves money on all those tests!

Yea, and dope or not, it still take skills to ride a bike competitively around France. Armstrong would still be my hero if I were a cycling fan. Let the man keep his titles!

[MadtownPacker]

Was it really an unfair advantage when basically everyone was doing it?

Not saying it is all good but if Armstrong was sick of getting beat by juicers and decided to even the playing field well I have a hard time hating on him for that.

[swede]

Was it really an unfair advantage when basically everyone was doing it?

Not saying it is all good but if Armstrong was sick of getting beat by juicers and decided to even the playing field well I have a hard time hating on him for that.

Tienes razon. No sorpresa. Siempre tienes razon.

[mraynrand]

Was it really an unfair advantage when basically everyone was doing it?

Not saying it is all good but if Armstrong was sick of getting beat by juicers and decided to even the playing field well I have a hard time hating on him for that.

Plus, he was excellent at doping, apparently. Gotta recognize a man's talents!

[wootah]

Was it really an unfair advantage when basically everyone was doing it?

Not saying it is all good but if Armstrong was sick of getting beat by juicers and decided to even the playing field well I have a hard time hating on him for that.

1) Armstrong was not getting beat by juicers and then decided to catch up. After his cancer he clearly was prepared to play on a leveled playing field from the get-go.

2) Even in doping there is an unfair advantage; you've got the wannabe's who try to experiment with some veterinarian pills bought online from Thailand and you've got the pro's who got a multimillion dollar medical staff behind them which is finetuning them like a F1 car.

Anyone saw his Livestrong speech last weekend? That beginning was pretty painful to watch, not quite "The Boss" we used to know.

[wootah]

... and all of a sudden we now all have just as much Tour de France victories as Lance does.

[MadtownPacker]

You talk like they took away Superbowl trophies.

[Little Whiskey]

You talk like they took away Superbowl trophies.

only if you are a cyclist.

[wootah]

Lance is going to Oprah to tell his story. Oh boy, here comes the sobbing.

[red]

lance needs to go crawl in a hole somewhere and die

whats he gonna do, admit to doing it and beg for forgiveness?

he's not getting any. he cheated, and then for years fought as hard as possible to cover everything up, and then reaped the rewards from that cheating and conned us all into believing he was something special.

he's just another piece of shit.

go crawl in a hole lance. you're an asshole

[mraynrand]

Only Fernando Escartin sleeps well at night.

[ThunderDan]

lance needs to go crawl in a hole somewhere and die

whats he gonna do, admit to doing it and beg for forgiveness?

he's not getting any. he cheated, and then for years fought as hard as possible to cover everything up, and then reaped the rewards from that cheating and conned us all into believing he was something special.

he's just another piece of shit.

go crawl in a hole lance. you're an asshole

I disagree Red. Almost all the cyclists were on PEDs. For one the years that they stripped Armstrong from the title, 26 of the next 27 riders were all from teams with a doping history.

I still find it hard to believe that he was able to not get caught all of those years. After every stage the winner and a handful of other randomly choosen cyclist are drug tested. One year Armstrong was in the randomly picked group every day of the race and he tested negative.

I do agree with you on the covering it up part. That takes some big balls to go out and say you raced clean day-after-day-after-day.

[mmmdk]

Lance is going to Oprah to tell his story. Oh boy, here comes the sobbing.

It'll be interesting!

[mmmdk]

what a joke of a sport. you have juicers, and guys that bitch about the juicers because they haven't been caught yet

its like baseball and bowling, the whole damn sport is crooked and roided up

At least the NFL is pure as driven snow! :lol:

[Freak Out]

Lance is going come clean.

[Kiwon]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

No, it turns out that he's probably the biggest liar in modern sports history....the Bernie Madoff of sports. (or was Madoff the 'Lance Armstrong' of finance?)

I admired the guy. I wanted his story to be true.

But what about the millions across the globe, especially cancer patients, that worshiped the guy and found inspiration from him?

I know its complicated and he did some good things, but I wonder if he can grasp the damage he's done?

Parents, hold this guy up as a lesson about lying because Lance Armstrong is a poster boy. One lie leads to another, leads to another, and it snowballs from there.

As Armstrong 'defended' himself with phony denials, he disparaged so many, attacked their reputations publicly....

Wow, I'd say, he just owes about half the globe an apology......even Oprah can't help him now.

[wootah]

Reports say he will fully admit using doping and will testify against the UCI and the officials that helped him cover it up. But not his fellow cyclists.

It seems that if Lance is going down, he's taking the big guys with him.

[Kiwon]

Reports say he will fully admit using doping and will testify against the UCI and the officials that helped him cover it up. But not his fellow cyclists.

It seems that if Lance is going down, he's taking the big guys with him.

Now, I'm a cynic. What good will it do? So many riders were willing to cheat. They will find another way.

They should just drop the pretense and have a cheaters race. The guys still have to ride the miles. Everybody knows that pro wrestling is fake but the fans still flock to it.

[wootah]

Now, I'm a cynic. What good will it do? So many riders were willing to cheat. They will find another way.

They should just drop the pretense and have a cheaters race. The guys still have to ride the miles. Everybody knows that pro wrestling is fake but the fans still flock to it.

If the doping rules for the NFL were as strict as they are for cycling, the Packers would probably have to contact us to have a 47 man squad on Sundays.

Besides cleaning house in the highest administration circle of cycling, this might also defer the attention from Lance a bit. Who knows, maybe he'll be able to sell it as if he changed his ways and now wants to make up for his mistakes by trying to clean the sport? By admitting he'll lose some money he gained over the years, but it might bring in some new funds as well as a guest speaker again. At the moment, without admitting, he's a paria: no one wants to be associated with him. Afterwards there will be people who will admire his 'courage' again and he will probably be accepted by most.

I wonder what will happen with his testimonies under oath where he said he never used doping.

[Kiwon]

By admitting he'll lose some money he gained over the years, but it might bring in some new funds as well as a guest speaker again. At the moment, without admitting, he's a paria: no one wants to be associated with him. Afterwards there will be people who will admire his 'courage' again and he will probably be accepted by most.

I wonder what will happen with his testimonies under oath where he said he never used doping.

The guy's going to be in court the next few years. He's got several civil suits that will go forward against him.

2.5 hours of sob stories with Oprah isn't going to help him much. It will raise more questions than answers and critics will come out of the woodworks to vindicate themselves and savage him.

If I were a paid advisor, I would tell him that his best hope for winning back public support right now is to come out as gay. Blame his troubles on struggling with his sexuality and he'll immediately gain back some solid supporters and shield himself from some criticism in the MSM. Yeah, it's cynical and yes, I am being serious.

[wootah]

Hahaha, you are also insane :) "Come out as gay" as paid advise... The guy has 2 children with his current girlfriend. Don't quit your regular job, Kiwon.

[mraynrand]

Come out as gay" as paid advise... The guy has 2 children with his current girlfriend. That's just a crafty cover for his gay sex life. Just ask Malcolm Stevenson Forbes Sr.

[Kiwon]

Hahaha, you are also insane :) "Come out as gay" as paid advise... The guy has 2 children with his current girlfriend. Don't quit your regular job, Kiwon.

That would be 'advice' in 'Merican English. 'c' not 's'

I thought Europeans were supposed to be sophisticated; 'LGBT' is golden these days, especially the hetero to 'fabulous' journey narrative.

Not to go all FYI on you (because Mad doesn't allow semi-auto politics in RR).....

Ever heard of Jim McGreevey, Governor Jim McGreevey, twice-married with two kids Governor Jim McGreevey who had anonymous gay sex in truck stops, rest stops, woods over all New Jersey?

Well, he's one of many celebs to "come out" in grand fashion, complete with a press conference and a classic line, "My truth is that I am a gay American" "I, me, my" vs. society's expectations of a father and husband who just happens to be the chief executive of a state (even if said state is New Jersey :cool:). The end of the line you say?.....au contraire, my French-speaking friend, just another career opportunity for the ambitious.

From the McGreevey's book teaser:

"In August 2004, Governor James E. McGreevey of New Jersey made history when he stepped before microphones, declared "My truth is that I am a gay American," and announced his resignation. The story made international headlines—but what led to that moment was a human and political drama more complex and fascinating than anyone knew. Now, in this extraordinarily candid memoir, McGreevey shares his story of a life of ambition, moral compromise, and redemption."

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RS82ew%2BGL._AA160_.jpg

Lance, just tell the world that sex with Sheryl Crow made you seriously question your heterosexuality and people will start to empathize and believe in you again.... (HA!...can you tell it's 5am now? Sleep deprivation)

[MJZiggy]

I believe the difference is that McGreevey actually had gay sex before coming out in a major press release.

What I want to know is what his motivation for admitting all of this now. Had he stuck to his story, the issue always would have been an asterisk, but would have eventually drifted away like some of the baseball players who did it. Why take a flying leap in the spotlight (and not in a good way) no one ever could completely pin doping on him regardless of how they tried. So why do it and why do it now?

[Kiwon]

I believe the difference is that McGreevey actually had gay sex before coming out in a major press release.

Details, details..........


What I want to know is what his motivation for admitting all of this now. Had he stuck to his story, the issue always would have been an asterisk, but would have eventually drifted away like some of the baseball players who did it. Why take a flying leap in the spotlight (and not in a good way) no one ever could completely pin doping on him regardless of how they tried. So why do it and why do it now?

Ego, probably. Guilty conscience, maybe. Image rehabilitation and future endorsement hopes, DEFINITELY.

This interview could be one of the biggest legal FAILS in history.....
.................................................. ............

U.S. Postal Service Spent Nearly $40 Million Sponsoring Armstrong's Cycling Teams

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/01/15/Lance-Postal-Team-Money

Justice Dept. May Sue Armstrong, Cycling Team Owners for Fraud

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/01/15/Lance-Postal-Team-Lawsuit-Fraud

[wootah]

I thought Europeans were supposed to be sophisticated; 'LGBT' is golden these days, especially the hetero to 'fabulous' journey narrative.

The times they are a-changing. Last weekend 350K French came to the streets to protest gay marriage. Sure it were mainly the small town folks who had never seen a driving car, but still a pretty big number for a socialist bastion like France which has "Liberté, égalité et fraternité" as its motto.


au contraire, my French-speaking friend

I'm from the Flemish part, mijn Engelssprekende vriend.


What I want to know is what his motivation for admitting all of this now. Had he stuck to his story, the issue always would have been an asterisk, but would have eventually drifted away like some of the baseball players who did it. Why take a flying leap in the spotlight (and not in a good way) no one ever could completely pin doping on him regardless of how they tried. So why do it and why do it now?

Vanity. He is so vain he probably thinks this topic is about him.

Armstrong was nicknamed "the boss" (more like Tony Soprano boss than Bruce Springsteen boss) and enjoyed/abused that status on and off the bike. He intimidated his colleagues and put them under pressure to join his doping program of his team. Other cyclists of other teams doped as well, but none was ever the ringleader and intimidator like Armstrong was.

I remember an Italian cyclist (Simeoni) who was caught with doping and claimed he got it from the same doctor Armstrong visited. This was never a contender for the TDF, but after his comments Armstrong made sure he never got any success again. I remember Simeoni being ahead in a race with 5 other cyclists which all posed no threat to Armstrong. Armstrong followed Simeoni like his shadow causing the whole peloton to chase the group since Armstrong's competitors didn't want to lose time on him. The members of the breakaway were signaling Armstrong to back off and let them escape for the victory of the day, but he would only do so if Simeoni returned to the peloton with him. He later stated that Simeoni "didn't deserve to win a race".

He was also a role model for thousands of people because of his battle against cancer. How many people were wearing that bracelet referencing that?

Once a hero for the whole world and now he's a cheating fraud. He is valued at 100mil, so I don't think money has to do with it, but he lost his status. I think he hopes to get some of that respect back but I doubt he will succeed though.

[mraynrand]

I believe the difference is that McGreevey actually had gay sex before coming out in a major press release.

you can't prove that in a court of law.

[mraynrand]

I think he hopes to get some of that respect back but I doubt he will succeed though.


maybe he just wants to run a marathon

[Kiwon]

Which sport's authority is worst at catching dopers - Baseball, football or cycling?

Here's a cyclist who used for 12 years and wasn't caught.

The sports obviously don't want to catch these guys. The NFL tests urine, but not blood. It will be a cold day in July before the NFL Player's Union will allow that.
.................................................. ......................

Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen admits to doping

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/01/31/danish-cyclist-rasmussen-admits-to-doping/1879845/

[wootah]

NFL is just trying to pretend they look for doping. I think the answer is clear for this one...

[mraynrand]

So I ask again, if everyone is doping, why the outrage when someone gets caught?


Is everyone on the Tour de France now not doping, or are the officials just looking the other way? Or has the doping test evasion just improved?

[wootah]

Evasion has improved. Cyclist and their medical staff want to make more money and take risks by experimenting with the newest meds which aren't tested yet. The risk long term health issues for a couple of bucks. Tetsting as flawed as well, since most of its done by national agencies and not all of them (like the Spanish) have proven to be neutral in their analysis.

I think the the outrage stems from the fact that cycling is seen as a sport for everyone over here: it doesn't matter if your daddy was a senator or a farmer, as long as you could ride hard, you could become a hero. Doping changed that and allowed the wealthier but less talented riders to take over. Your money and connections suddenly defined your capacities.

There's a great story of Edwin van Hooydonk who won the Tour de Flanders, one of the toughest one day races, at the age of 24. 2 years later he couldn't follow the pace of the peloton anymore even though his tests showed him to be stronger than before. He knew what was happening, but instead of joining the frauds, he retired.

[wootah]

BTW, today the world cup of cyclocross is taking place in Louisville, KY. Cyclocross is pretty much riding your bike in a meadow for an hour, but it's big in Belgium. Unfortunately it's pretty much only in Belgium that it's big, so we have a long list of world champions :)

The US organisation decided yesterday to move the race from Sunday to Saturday due to flooding danger and today all the newspapers are going crazy over his. Enjoy the race if it should come on the telly there!