Alex Green

[RashanGary]

He looks indecisive at times. Harry Sydney said it looks like he's trying so hard not to fumble, he's not fighting the way he could be.

I'm going to give him a couple weeks after the bye, then start selling stock fast if he doesn't pick it up. Coming off the injury, he's probably getting warn down a little right now. The bye week for him, more than most players, should be a big help for him.

If he comes out and shows that extra burst/extra gear, I'm staying on board. If not, I'm selling stock fast. He looks like a good 3rd down back now. He does a nice job catching the ball. He has to start running the ball well or that might be all he'll ever be.

[sharpe1027]

This is what I see (unofficial observations and just my opinion):

Green does not setup the cutback by utilizing his blockers and making a defender commit before picking a hole. Contrast his runs with Benson's, both behind the same O-line. Benson would look like he was hitting one gap to force a defender to commit and then he would switch directions to hit another gap. This generally put a blocker between him and the committed defender. The result was a lot of 3-5 yard runs. Green generally just picks a hole and goes hard into the hole. The result is a lot of 0-2 yard runs. If you get Green in open space, he's pretty dynamic for a big back, but he needs to read and setup the blocks better before he can run between the tackles consistently.

[Bossman641]

I'm having a hard time figuring the run game out....is it Green or is it the OL? Even shitty teams break off 10-15 yard runs from time to time. Why is it that we are incapable of running when there are only 6 in the box?!?! McGinn had some pretty damning quotes from opposing coaches about Saturday the other day.

[Lurker64]

There are two issues as far as I see it.
1) Vision: Green Just doesn't see cutback lanes and misses obvious holes.
2) Blocking: Jeff Saturday is, at times, worse than useless in the run game.

[Brandon494]

I think we might have another Brandon Jackson on our hands.

[sharpe1027]

I think we might have another Brandon Jackson on our hands.

Yeah. Green is bigger and more willing to stay between the tackles, but just about as ineffective. :)

[denverYooper]

I think we might have another Brandon Jackson on our hands.

If he can become the blocker that BJax was, he'll have a role in their offense.

[Pugger]

If he can become the blocker that BJax was, he'll have a role in their offense.

Yes, but I suspect when we drafted him we hoped he be more of an every down back. :neutral:

[red]

if i hadn't seen benson run well behind the same line then i would be saying that green is doing the best he can with the line he has.

but as we've seen, a good running back can make things work

[Patler]

if i hadn't seen benson run well behind the same line then i would be saying that green is doing the best he can with the line he has.

but as we've seen, a good running back can make things work

Benson wasn't exactly tearing it up. He just gets more out of nothing than Green does.

[Lurker64]

Benson wasn't exactly tearing it up. He just gets more out of nothing than Green does.

I think a big difference between Benson and Green is just in the vision. A lot of times Green will have a cutback open, but will instead just run into a wall of bodies. Benson rarely misses those.

[sharpe1027]

I think it is a combination of seeing the right hole and creating a hole by smart running. Benson tries to forces the defense to commit before he commits himself to a particular hole. This is almost like having an extra blocker.

With only a few guys in the box you might not break as many long runs because there's a lot of guys in the second level, but you should get consistent medium gains.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Benson wasn't exactly tearing it up. He just gets more out of nothing than Green does.

Benson averaged 3.5 yards/carry against the #4, #7, #8, and #30 ranked rush defenses in yards/carry in his full games.
Green is averaging 2.9 yards/carry against the #9, #19, #21, and #29 ranked rush defenses in yards/carry for most of his carries.

I think it's pretty obvious Benson is a much better RB at this point--which is disappointing to me. At this point I hope they give Starks more carries. I'm not saying to scrap Green completely, but we need to see what Starks can do.

[Patler]

if i hadn't seen benson run well behind the same line then i would be saying that green is doing the best he can with the line he has.

but as we've seen, a good running back can make things work


Benson wasn't exactly tearing it up. He just gets more out of nothing than Green does.


Benson averaged 3.5 yards/carry against the #4, #7, #8, and #30 ranked rush defenses in yards/carry in his full games.
Green is averaging 2.9 yards/carry against the #9, #19, #21, and #29 ranked rush defenses in yards/carry for most of his carries.

I think it's pretty obvious Benson is a much better RB at this point--which is disappointing to me. At this point I hope they give Starks more carries. I'm not saying to scrap Green completely, but we need to see what Starks can do.

I don't disagree that Benson is better. My point was with respect to Red's suggestion (at least the way I read his comment) that perhaps the O-line isn't so much at fault. Personally, I think the O-line has been mostly awful, regardless of whether it has been Benson or Green carrying. Benson got more because he is just a better back. Hence my comment that he gets more out of nothing. Benson's 71/248 compared to Green's 76/219 doesn't leap out as an indication that the O-line is doing a good job, when virtually every team has geared to stop Rodgers and has dared the Packers to run against them. Benson is better than Green, but the O-line has not been getting the job done for either one. If they were, Benson would have achieved more success than he did.

I heard Wayne Larivee yesterday morning on WTMJ summarizing a discussion he had with Mark Tauscher. While acknowledging that they miss Benson, he basically said the O-line is getting manhandled, and there hasn't been much there for any of the backs.

Personally, I don't think the O-line has been doing that great of a job at pass protection either. Rodgers has been responsible for his share of the sacks, too; but rarely does he ever get the luxury of dropping back, setting and throwing from a clean pocket.

[sharpe1027]

I think MM has been doing everything he can to hide the poor play of the offensive line especially after Seattle. They cannot run or pass protect against average or better DL.

[Fritz]

I think MM has been doing everything he can to hide the poor play of the offensive line especially after Seattle. They cannot run or pass protect against average or better DL.

I agree that this is about a poor offensive line. Benson got what little could be had; Green gets less. That is damning for those who thought Green was the Next Big Thing (one poster who is no longer posting kept talking about how TT was so excited whenever he mentioned Green), but for the team, what is more damning is that this was supposed to be the line of the future, except maybe for Saturday.

I don't know enough about o-line play to know if one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, or if they are all sucky. I have been disappointed especially with TJ Lang. I thought he was going to be the next Marco Rivera, but no.

In sum, I'm disappointed that Green has done so little, but I'm even more disappointed in the play of the offensive line.

[mmmdk]

I agree that this is about a poor offensive line. Benson got what little could be had; Green gets less. That is damning for those who thought Green was the Next Big Thing (one poster who is no longer posting kept talking about how TT was so excited whenever he mentioned Green), but for the team, what is more damning is that this was supposed to be the line of the future, except maybe for Saturday.

I don't know enough about o-line play to know if one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, or if they are all sucky. I have been disappointed especially with TJ Lang. I thought he was going to be the next Marco Rivera, but no.

In sum, I'm disappointed that Green has done so little, but I'm even more disappointed in the play of the offensive line.

Very well put, I was getting worried that I was amongst the few that could see it. Take a look at video evidence and you'll see that Packers are been moved aound easily and they are not opening many holes. I'm going to cut Green some slack here. BTW, I watched the Raiders vs Jags game from last week..that Jags front seven is pretty damn good!

[pbmax]

I'm having a hard time figuring the run game out....is it Green or is it the OL? Even shitty teams break off 10-15 yard runs from time to time. Why is it that we are incapable of running when there are only 6 in the box?!?! McGinn had some pretty damning quotes from opposing coaches about Saturday the other day.

Cliff Cristl, Cleft Crusty and Eric Baranczykiehfowifhjspfs say its NOT the O line: http://www.packersnews.com/article/20121029/PKR07/121029082/Don-t-blame-Green-Bay-Packers-offensive-woes-on-the-offensive-line?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

The answer, perhaps, is that they aren't very good. But they aren't this awful either. Give Starks a shot. Problem with that is, it will take him three games to get to full speed.

[Patler]

Cliff Cristl, Cleft Crusty and Eric Baranczykiehfowifhjspfs say its NOT the O line: http://www.packersnews.com/article/20121029/PKR07/121029082/Don-t-blame-Green-Bay-Packers-offensive-woes-on-the-offensive-line?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

The answer, perhaps, is that they aren't very good. But they aren't this awful either. Give Starks a shot. Problem with that is, it will take him three games to get to full speed.

Ya, except yesterday Clements seemed to contradict a lot of what CC and EB criticized in their article, that Green showed no patience on Sunday.


“Most of the runs that we had in (Sunday) were more downhill runs where you’re trying to get to the line quicker,” Clements said when asked whether Green needed to show more patience. “We had Evan Dietrich-Smith in there a couple of times at different positions where he was essentially trapping one of their linemen, and that’s a quick-hitting type play. A lot of the other plays were quick-hitting. When we do more of the outside zone or the inside zone, that requires some patience.”

But then, MM said that Green "didn't have one of his better days".

I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the inexperienced Green and the under performing O-line.

Might as well give Starks more chances. A game or two of extended use and he will be back on the injured list, and that distraction can be put to rest! :-D

[pbmax]

Ya, except yesterday Clements seemed to contradict a lot of what CC and EB criticized in their article, that Green showed no patience on Sunday.



But then, MM said that Green "didn't have one of his better days".

I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the inexperienced Green and the under performing O-line.

Might as well give Starks more chances. A game or two of extended use and he will be back on the injured list, and that distraction can be put to rest! :-D

I could be wrong, but EDS at FB gave Green his best run. Or perhaps one of his best two.

[Pugger]

CedBen only played in 4 games before hurting is foot in his 5th so he was just getting settled in before he went down. :( I checked his stats and he was getting close to his career average per carry this year = 3.5. I'll take 3.5 any day of the week, especially behind this line. He and other superior backs are able to get yards even after contact, something Starks and Green don't do very often.

[Bossman641]

To my eye, it looks like the blame falls more on the OL than on Green. He certainly isn't helping them, but it just seems like the interior line gets no push at all. Even on pass plays they get walked back. I know Lang has something going on with his arm that is robbing him of power and Saturday is what he is at this point, but why can't we run more effectively behind Sitton and Bulaga? Are Saturday and Lang that poor at cutting off the backside?

[Smidgeon]

This is what I see (unofficial observations and just my opinion):

Green does not setup the cutback by utilizing his blockers and making a defender commit before picking a hole. Contrast his runs with Benson's, both behind the same O-line. Benson would look like he was hitting one gap to force a defender to commit and then he would switch directions to hit another gap. This generally put a blocker between him and the committed defender. The result was a lot of 3-5 yard runs. Green generally just picks a hole and goes hard into the hole. The result is a lot of 0-2 yard runs. If you get Green in open space, he's pretty dynamic for a big back, but he needs to read and setup the blocks better before he can run between the tackles consistently.

Sounds a lot like how I run in Madden...

[Smidgeon]

I don't disagree that Benson is better. My point was with respect to Red's suggestion (at least the way I read his comment) that perhaps the O-line isn't so much at fault. Personally, I think the O-line has been mostly awful, regardless of whether it has been Benson or Green carrying. Benson got more because he is just a better back. Hence my comment that he gets more out of nothing. Benson's 71/248 compared to Green's 76/219 doesn't leap out as an indication that the O-line is doing a good job, when virtually every team has geared to stop Rodgers and has dared the Packers to run against them. Benson is better than Green, but the O-line has not been getting the job done for either one. If they were, Benson would have achieved more success than he did.

I heard Wayne Larivee yesterday morning on WTMJ summarizing a discussion he had with Mark Tauscher. While acknowledging that they miss Benson, he basically said the O-line is getting manhandled, and there hasn't been much there for any of the backs.

Personally, I don't think the O-line has been doing that great of a job at pass protection either. Rodgers has been responsible for his share of the sacks, too; but rarely does he ever get the luxury of dropping back, setting and throwing from a clean pocket.

So weak talent on the O-line and at RB. Time for TT to draft six offensive players in a row...and hope they aren't offensive.

[RashanGary]

So weak talent on the O-line and at RB. Time for TT to draft six offensive players in a row...and hope they aren't offensive.

Might want to give lang this week off. Apparently hsi elbow is a problem. This week, and the bye week might be really good for him. EDS is a servicable player. With Langs injury, he might be as good. In the short term, it might be a wash. In the long term, if Lang gets healthier, it would be a gain.

Also might want to consider EDS replacing Saturday eventually. Even if Saturday takes the job back at some point, he's old. Again, a player who could benefit greatly by some time off. In his case, to regain strength.

[RashanGary]

Also, maybe Starks should be 1st and 2nd down, with Green 3rd down. Green has a little ways to go. Hard to tell if he just doesn't have that vision, or if he's over-thinking. It's just hard to tell what we have. The sample is a little small. I'm not a big Starks fan, but he is better than what Green has shown when he decides to play a more straight ahead style, rather than trying to have patience (he just seems to go backwards when he's more patient.

That thing is a work in progress. I do give credit to MM for sticking with it. It's only going to get better with repetition. We don't have the defense we had in 2010. If we're going to win down the stretch, it's going to have to be a combination of ST's, improved defense over last year, and improved running game. It certainly can happen, and committing to the run game, I think, is going to be a part of that.

Benson is the right fit. He sets up blocks well, and gets the yards that are there. He's a big improvement over last year and may go a long way toward giving us that edge we need to win the big games. I do like Green a lot on 3rd down. He's blocked well, and shows some big play qualities in space.

[Fritz]

Also, maybe Starks should be 1st and 2nd down, with Green 3rd down. Green has a little ways to go. Hard to tell if he just doesn't have that vision, or if he's over-thinking. It's just hard to tell what we have. The sample is a little small. I'm not a big Starks fan, but he is better than what Green has shown when he decides to play a more straight ahead style, rather than trying to have patience (he just seems to go backwards when he's more patient.

That thing is a work in progress. I do give credit to MM for sticking with it. It's only going to get better with repetition. We don't have the defense we had in 2010. If we're going to win down the stretch, it's going to have to be a combination of ST's, improved defense over last year, and improved running game. It certainly can happen, and committing to the run game, I think, is going to be a part of that.

Benson is the right fit. He sets up blocks well, and gets the yards that are there. He's a big improvement over last year and may go a long way toward giving us that edge we need to win the big games. I do like Green a lot on 3rd down. He's blocked well, and shows some big play qualities in space.

The offense has seemed to run a different kind of running play the last few weeks: the more traditonal straight-ahead type of run. If and when Benson comes back, would that play to his advantage or disadvantage? And how about Starks? What type of running plays suit him best?

[Cleft Crusty]

The clear answer about the sluggish running game is "all of the above." Substandard line play, a running back suited to running from the shotgun, loss of a proper lead full back, and an offense that barely recognizes the run game. It isn't that Green is 'impatient' it's that he's not so talented at making the proper "reads" in the tight box (modern commentators call it 'reads' while us older, senile guys call it 'cuts' Oh, and we call it senility while the moderns call it 'dementia'). Peterson and Benson both have 'patience' but what they really both have that is a special skill, is the instinctive ability to recognize the proper hole and hit that thing hard and quick. You moderns keep your clever comments to yourself about that last sentence, willya?

[Lurker64]

Also, maybe Starks should be 1st and 2nd down, with Green 3rd down.

The problem is that Starks is almost completely worthless if you're not handing him the ball, as he neither blocks nor catches particularly well.

Green, at least, can catch the ball and is a willing blocker in blitz pickup.

[rbaloha1]

IMO the lack of a rushing game is a combination of the line getting beat and Green missing the open running lanes.

Lang and Saturday are getting beat consistently.

During college Green was running from a one back set in the run and shoot against bad defenses. Generally defenses were more concerned with NFL receivers. This allowed Green to run in enormous gaps. The big runs occurred without reading defender's movements along with superior downfield blocking.

Agree with the beat writer and poster that Green could just be a third round back which was the original thinking. Starks is clearly a better runner.

[denverYooper]

IMO the lack of a rushing game is a combination of the line getting beat and Green missing the open running lanes.

Lang and Saturday are getting beat consistently.

During college Green was running from a one back set in the run and shoot against bad defenses. Generally defenses were more concerned with NFL receivers. This allowed Green to run in enormous gaps. The big runs occurred without reading defender's movements along with superior downfield blocking.

Agree with the beat writer and poster that Green could just be a third round back which was the original thinking. Starks is clearly a better runner.

McGinn stated that Lang has a pretty severe elbow injury that is really hampering his effectiveness right now. Hopefully that is temporary.

[King Friday]

Green is a 3rd down back...pure and simple. He does not have the vision or knowledge to be a starting caliber back. I was hoping he would develop into more, but it doesn't seem to have much chance of happening at this point.

Our OL seems to be playing below their capabilities. I'm not sure why, but far too many times I'm seeing OL players get manhandled and beat without even holding the point for a moment.

The team needs to make more of a commitment to the run game this offseason...in camps, in the draft, in a planning capacity.

[Guiness]

Green is a 3rd down back...pure and simple. He does not have the vision or knowledge to be a starting caliber back. I was hoping he would develop into more, but it doesn't seem to have much chance of happening at this point.

Our OL seems to be playing below their capabilities. I'm not sure why, but far too many times I'm seeing OL players get manhandled and beat without even holding the point for a moment.

The team needs to make more of a commitment to the run game this offseason...in camps, in the draft, in a planning capacity.

I think it's a little early to say there's not much chance. This is effectively his rookie year, and Benson was initially the starter. There's still a chance he could develop.

[pbmax]

The problem is that Starks is almost completely worthless if you're not handing him the ball, as he neither blocks nor catches particularly well.

Green, at least, can catch the ball and is a willing blocker in blitz pickup.

On first and second down, that is exactly what they need though pass pro is an issue. I say this knowing full well the joys and frustrations of the Starks bandwagon. I have personally been on and off and on again 27 times.

It would take him 3 weeks just to remember how to not dance at the line. But after that three weeks, something fun might happen if Rodgers is still upright.

[mission]

I really want to like Alex Green, but as of right now, he's better at not breaking tackles than Ryan Grant.

See what I did? Yeah, he needs to run like a 225 LB back and man up. Might be coming off a knee injury and a bad run blocking oline, but I saw Benson at least show some wiggle and lower half power.

[ND72]

Here's my opinion...he's essentially a rookie. He's running at one speed right now instead of slowing down or looking for cuts, right now he's running. I like the kid a lot. He's very raw, but he has had flashes. Our OL has not helped him, and at times the running play hasn't helped either.

[Pugger]

If indeed Lang has an arm issue maybe we should put EDS in there and let Lang rest for a couple of weeks. I'd keep Lang active just in case tho.

[King Friday]

I think it's a little early to say there's not much chance. This is effectively his rookie year, and Benson was initially the starter. There's still a chance he could develop.

Since when do RBs "develop"? It is probably the easiest position to transition into from college. It isn't like there are a ton of RBs who suddenly spring up out of nowhere their 4th year in the league.

Either you can run the ball or you can't. I'm just not seeing any spark in Green as a runner...and the good runners ALL show at least some kind of spark from day one, even if it isn't consistent.

[Guiness]

Since when do RBs "develop"? It is probably the easiest position to transition into from college. It isn't like there are a ton of RBs who suddenly spring up out of nowhere their 4th year in the league.

Either you can run the ball or you can't. I'm just not seeing any spark in Green as a runner...and the good runners ALL show at least some kind of spark from day one, even if it isn't consistent.

You're right, the nature of the position is why it is generally a matter of 'instant gratification' after you draft one. Young and able to take the pounding is good, and smarts aren't required - RBs have the lower average Wonderlific score. Which brings up another interesting point, why isn't it easier to select the RBs who are going to be successful at the NFL level, if they theoretically have all the tools, and don't need to learn much when they move up?

But there are instances when RBs do need some time. Ahman Green is our own example. Priest Holmes was actually in his fifth season in the league before breaking out, after languishing in Baltimore behind such illustrius backs such as Bam Morris and Errict Rhett!

I think there's a chance Greene could still be a solid runner. As has been mentioned here often, he ran through a lot of big holes in college, and has to learn to run through small seams.

[Fritz]

You're right, the nature of the position is why it is generally a matter of 'instant gratification' after you draft one. Young and able to take the pounding is good, and smarts aren't required - RBs have the lower average Wonderlific score. Which brings up another interesting point, why isn't it easier to select the RBs who are going to be successful at the NFL level, if they theoretically have all the tools, and don't need to learn much when they move up?

But there are instances when RBs do need some time. Ahman Green is our own example. Priest Holmes was actually in his fifth season in the league before breaking out, after languishing in Baltimore behind such illustrius backs such as Bam Morris and Errict Rhett!

I think there's a chance Greene could still be a solid runner. As has been mentioned here often, he ran through a lot of big holes in college, and has to learn to run through small seams.

You like your running backs the way many men like their women.

And, Cleft, any modern will tell you that sometimes hitting the improper hole is good, too.

[sharpe1027]

This list of Green Bay RBs that looked similar to (or even better than) Green is so long and depressing that I don't have any faith in him developing into anything much. I hope I'm wrong.

[Fritz]

This list of Green Bay RBs that looked similar to (or even better than) Green is so long and depressing that I don't have any faith in him developing into anything much. I hope I'm wrong.

I must say, that trade of Ahman Green to the Packers was probably a good inkling as to why Mike Holmgren is a much better coach than he is GM. He traded a promising young running back, Green, because he had a fumbling problem. A coach makes a trade like that - show his team he won't tolerate fumbling? - whereas a GM tells his coach to coach 'em up and if the kid can't get it fixed, then we'll dump him.

And the guy that Wolf traded was the second of three consecutive d-backs in the first three rounds that Wolf drafted that year to try to check Randy Moss. The first was Antuan/Antwan Edwards, the third was Mike Mckenzie, and this guy - Fred something or other, I think? was the third. He was seen as the guy with maybe the best coverage skills, but he wasn't very big or physical. Then he got hurt, I believe, playing pick up basketball, and never did pan out.

[run pMc]

and this guy - Fred something or other, I think? was the third.

Fred Vinson. Thought he had Achilles tendon or foot tendon issues or something. Couldn't stay on the field. Pretty good trade by Wolf to get Ahman.

I think the lack of production in the running game can be blamed on both the OL and Green. Benson's production does show that Green has a lot to learn...am thinking as he gets more experience he'll settle down and learn to make better reads. Either that, or he'll never pan out. (Duh.) Wouldn't be surprised if TT goes offense-heavy in the draft with at least 2 OL, a WR and a RB.

I agree with most posters that Starks is overdue to get more carries. JAX stopping our run game with 6 defenders in the box is pretty depressing. The NFCN defenses must have loved that.